It's time for the hammer, Anet!

[Elric.4713]

> @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > @"Buran.3796" said:

> > > @"DonArkanio.6419" said:

> >

> > > Talking from a middle-plat Rev perspecitve I think you got that right. The no-defense Revenant is an excuse for the overpowered damage it deals. It just has to be toned down IMO. Playing against Power Shiro is boring, and for me playing this build myself is also boring. It's been 4 years. The issue is that Shiro provdes too much mobility so that every other legend feels lacking. But hey! Revenant isn't just the damage build in PvP, it can be a lot more, and it's usable.

> > >

> >

> >

> > First, the Rev is in 3.5 years old, not 4. Second, base damage of Rev without might stacks is kitten, and even with 25 the sustained damage over time is rather poor. Third, along 2018 Rev lost most of its vulnerability sources, and quickness from Impossible Odds, and none of the "buffs" it got worths a dime due the class hasn't changed the only viable build since the HoT beta. So yeah, nerf Rev even more... remove the class from PvP (just as if anyone wants a Rev in PvE, anyway).

>

> Yes. Let's get rid of Revenant and replace it with the blackguard anti-paladin it should have been.

 

How about no. Revenant was never suppose to be a runeblade wielding Death Knight like most of you on the forums keep suggesting, instead it's more like a successor to Ritualist, an invoker profession.

[Bigpapasmurf.5623]

> @"DonArkanio.6419" said:

> I'm praying for the Nerf-all E-Specs. Seriously.

> Talking from a middle-plat Rev perspecitve I think you got that right. The no-defense Revenant is an excuse for the overpowered damage it deals. It just has to be toned down IMO. Playing against Power Shiro is boring, and for me playing this build myself is also boring. It's been 4 years. The issue is that Shiro provdes too much mobility so that every other legend feels lacking. But hey! Revenant isn't just the damage build in PvP, it can be a lot more, and it's usable.

>

> conclusion:

> - Not a single class should be able to survive against 3+ players when fighting directly

> - Not a single class should be able to stack 25 (insert any boon) on its own

> - Builds should chave actual consequences:

> |You go One-shot, you die one-shot

> | You go full tank, you deal no damage

> | You go hybrid, you are not able to perform great at everything | period.

>

> **What GW2 lacks in a competitive environment is trade-offs and consequences, that's all.**

>

 

Pretty sure that trade offs have been a big part of the last patch, which would indicate that more are to come. Id reserve that comment.

[mortrialus.3062]

> @"Elric.4713" said:

> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > @"Buran.3796" said:

> > > > @"DonArkanio.6419" said:

> > >

> > > > Talking from a middle-plat Rev perspecitve I think you got that right. The no-defense Revenant is an excuse for the overpowered damage it deals. It just has to be toned down IMO. Playing against Power Shiro is boring, and for me playing this build myself is also boring. It's been 4 years. The issue is that Shiro provdes too much mobility so that every other legend feels lacking. But hey! Revenant isn't just the damage build in PvP, it can be a lot more, and it's usable.

> > > >

> > >

> > >

> > > First, the Rev is in 3.5 years old, not 4. Second, base damage of Rev without might stacks is kitten, and even with 25 the sustained damage over time is rather poor. Third, along 2018 Rev lost most of its vulnerability sources, and quickness from Impossible Odds, and none of the "buffs" it got worths a dime due the class hasn't changed the only viable build since the HoT beta. So yeah, nerf Rev even more... remove the class from PvP (just as if anyone wants a Rev in PvE, anyway).

> >

> > Yes. Let's get rid of Revenant and replace it with the blackguard anti-paladin it should have been.

>

> How about no. Revenant was never suppose to be a runeblade wielding Death Knight like most of you on the forums keep suggesting, instead it's more like a successor to Ritualist, an invoker profession.

 

Dervish and Ritualist are what invoker professions should feel like. Revenant is more like a blobby mishmash of literally everything because the developers were afraid that any one person might not like the class thematically and so they tried to make something that tries to be _everything_ thematically.

[jcbroe.4329]

Take the opportunity to address higher macro-level concepts too.

For instance:

Currently you could split a lot of game mechanics or culminations of mechanics (ie. specs/builds) into 2 categories: "unfun" and "unfair (ie too powerful)"

 

In the unfun category you have specs/builds that have mechanics that cause grief or annoyance. For example, nobody likes being "one shot" by a Soulbeast or Power Chrono from stealth and/or range. Nobody likes fighting against classes like Mirage where the amount of target drops in a tab target game is rage inducing. Nobody likes mechanics like the Spellbreaker block that is an instant-cast unblockable CC.

 

In the other category, you have specs/builds that have mechanics that are unrivaled by anything else in the game. The sheer amount of support compacted into a meta Firebrand build, the sheer area control and offensive utility packed into a meta Scourge build, the chase and damage output potential of Herald, etc, that these, while they may not be a "60k damage Maul from stealth" are "staple" specs/builds that define an entire game environment with no real viable competitors for the positions they hold.

 

From a design standpoint there should have been some high level rules:

* No instant-cast CC

* No instant cast "big" damage

* No target dropping mechanics

* No skills that are both offensive and defensive in nature at the same time. ie evading while dealing damage.

* Implement forced gaps of time (ie proper access and cooldowns) between defensive utilities so that every class/build has forced periods of vulnerability - cannot chain damage mitigation and/or recovery indefinitely or for "long" stretches of time.

* "Big" ranged damage should not be able to occur frequently enough that it does not leave an engaged opponent unable to counteract it. ie it should not leave an attentive enemy with cooldowns without a gap to react and counterplay it.

* The only "passives" in the game should be modifiers. As in, a passive that adds an effect to a dodge or a skill is fine because user input->effect, but a passive that automatically uses a skill without player input is not. Numerical passives, ie "5% more damage," should follow this rule and be turned into conditional modifiers such as adding flanking or CC'd requirements so that players have to actively work to satisfy the requirement to gain the benefit.

 

Obviously the ship has long sailed for quite a few of these things, but certain core classes, like Warrior and maybe Guardian and even maybe Ranger are so close to following these rules that they could be viewed as a standard to "balance backwards" towards.

[Griever.8150]

> @"Alatar.7364" said:

> kitten? Nerf thread without Thief's head impaled on a spike in it?! This **literally** freaks me out and makes me feel really uncertain.

 

Pretty sure even the hyperbolic drama-queens can see there's nothing left to nerf on Thief anymore. There's hardly any reasons to play it at all.

 

Edit : There's one, the fact that Shortbow exists. My bad.

[EnderzShadow.2506]

> @"Zenix.6198" said:

> **Ranger**

> While druid already got kinda bopped dmg wise last patch, Soulbeast is still happily running around, oneshotting people with Rapid Fire and Mauls.

> At the same time they can be incredibly tanky and evasive thanks to their mobility and certain trait interactions.

> The "damage-output to sustain"-ratio on this class is absolutely bonkers and needs to finally get adressed.

>

> Issues:

> - Insane Dmg (even on 0 ferocity amulets)

> - Unproptionally good survivablity

> - Boonspam

>

> Nerfs:

> - SIck'em (Shout): Reduced the bonus dmg of this skill to 20% (from 40%). (and dont tell me core specs will mind, cause they dont use this anyway)

> - Forage (Beast skill): Removed "consume plasma" from the table of available skills.

> - Lingering Magic (Nature Magic): Reduced the bonus concentration from this trait to 180 (from 240). (16% boon duration to 12%).

> - Dolyak Stance (Stance Skill): Reduced dmg reduction for conditions and power dmg to 20% (from 33%). (still good enough since it stacks with protection).

> - Unstoppable Union (Soulbeast): Instead granting the "unblockable effect) for a fixed duration, this trait now applies to your next 3 attacks (=hits) within 4s instead.

> - Richochet (Axe Skill): Reduced might gain to 7 seconds (from 10).

>

> I dont really have enough insight on other classes to make any sort of comment on them, or they are mostly fine imo.

> But considering that this would reduce TTK massively throughout the entire gamemode, specs like FB would definitely also need adjustments in order to prevent them from just keeping people alive indefinitely.

 

Since Ranger is my main, I'll comment on Ranger Alone.

 

 

-Druid has been getting nerfs repeatedly. There was no reason to nerf the pets.

 

-Soulbeasts can either be Tanky or heavy damage, they can't be both. There are no classes that one shot.

There are Glass Cannon Soulbeasts and they can hit hard, but they can't hit hard and be tanky.

And they surely can't one shot someone with a Maul.

 

The Dmg Out Put to Sustain? Are you FUcking kidding me?

-Core Specs Use Sicem. No need to nerf it.

 

-Remove Plasma completely? That would hurt core, soulbeasts and it doesn't come as often as it did because HELLO, it already got nerfed.

No one would use the pig. The viable pet selection is already low.

 

-Why reduce boon time? That is another thing that already got Boonbeast nerfed.

 

Soulbeast- A truthful TLDR "A balanced spec that is not meta anymore."

You don't know enough about Ranger to make an intelligent comment on the class, much less suggest Full Trait Reworks

 

 

[Master Ketsu.4569]

A big problem with a lot of these changes is you are focusing on raw numbers rather than functionality. The thing is the game is actually pretty balanced now compared to PoF release. With the addition of "Fire Weaver" Every class now has at least one 5 star build on metabattle to play.

 

The problem right now is interactivity. Rather than base values Anet needs to start looking at mechanics which lack counterplay. Anything without meaningful counterplay to it is generally bad for the game regardless of whether or not it is balanced as it infests PvP with cheese. Builds that provide nearly infinite stability or have mechanics that allow them to flat out ignore CC, long invuln durations, get carried by passive defenses, rely on skills with little to no cast time / animation tells, have unblockable + unevadeable combos = these are the problems that plague GW2 PvP today.

 

 

 

 

 

[XECOR.2814]

> @"EnderzShadow.2506" said:

> > @"Zenix.6198" said:

> > **Ranger**

> > While druid already got kinda bopped dmg wise last patch, Soulbeast is still happily running around, oneshotting people with Rapid Fire and Mauls.

> > At the same time they can be incredibly tanky and evasive thanks to their mobility and certain trait interactions.

> > The "damage-output to sustain"-ratio on this class is absolutely bonkers and needs to finally get adressed.

> >

> > Issues:

> > - Insane Dmg (even on 0 ferocity amulets)

> > - Unproptionally good survivablity

> > - Boonspam

> >

> > Nerfs:

> > - SIck'em (Shout): Reduced the bonus dmg of this skill to 20% (from 40%). (and dont tell me core specs will mind, cause they dont use this anyway)

> > - Forage (Beast skill): Removed "consume plasma" from the table of available skills.

> > - Lingering Magic (Nature Magic): Reduced the bonus concentration from this trait to 180 (from 240). (16% boon duration to 12%).

> > - Dolyak Stance (Stance Skill): Reduced dmg reduction for conditions and power dmg to 20% (from 33%). (still good enough since it stacks with protection).

> > - Unstoppable Union (Soulbeast): Instead granting the "unblockable effect) for a fixed duration, this trait now applies to your next 3 attacks (=hits) within 4s instead.

> > - Richochet (Axe Skill): Reduced might gain to 7 seconds (from 10).

> >

> > I dont really have enough insight on other classes to make any sort of comment on them, or they are mostly fine imo.

> > But considering that this would reduce TTK massively throughout the entire gamemode, specs like FB would definitely also need adjustments in order to prevent them from just keeping people alive indefinitely.

>

> Since Ranger is my main, I'll comment on Ranger Alone.

>

>

> -Druid has been getting nerfs repeatedly. There was no reason to nerf the pets.

>

> -Soulbeasts can either be Tanky or heavy damage, they can't be both. There are no classes that one shot.

> There are Glass Cannon Soulbeasts and they can hit hard, but they can't hit hard and be tanky.

> And they surely can't one shot someone with a Maul.

>

> The Dmg Out Put to Sustain? Are you kitten kidding me?

> -Core Specs Use Sicem. No need to nerf it.

>

> -Remove Plasma completely? That would hurt core, soulbeasts and it doesn't come as often as it did because HELLO, it already got nerfed.

> No one would use the pig. The viable pet selection is already low.

>

> -Why reduce boon time? That is another thing that already got Boonbeast nerfed.

>

> Soulbeast- A truthful TLDR "A balanced spec that is not meta anymore."

> You don't know enough about Ranger to make an intelligent comment on the class, much less suggest Full Trait Reworks

>

>

 

Busted prot uptimes, enough condi clear, busted mobility+defensive abilities(stealth, evade frames, invuln), AMAZIN' RANGE+DAMAGE. Literally canc*r in wvw. Utterly unacceptable.

[XECOR.2814]

> @"Griever.8150" said:

> > @"Alatar.7364" said:

> > kitten? Nerf thread without Thief's head impaled on a spike in it?! This **literally** freaks me out and makes me feel really uncertain.

>

> Pretty sure even the hyperbolic drama-queens can see there's nothing left to nerf on Thief anymore. There's hardly any reasons to play it at all.

>

> Edit : There's one, the fact that Shortbow exists. My bad.

 

Vault hits for 15k in wvw on 3k armor. Pretty balanced right? Also daredevil+dodge food is also fun to play against while it delivers aforementioned damage. :)

[Zenix.6198]

> @"Master Ketsu.4569" said:

> A big problem with a lot of these changes is you are focusing on raw numbers rather than functionality. The thing is the game is actually pretty balanced now compared to PoF release. With the addition of "Fire Weaver" Every class now has at least one 5 star build on metabattle to play.

>

> The problem right now is interactivity. Rather than base values Anet needs to start looking at mechanics which lack counterplay. Anything without meaningful counterplay to it is generally bad for the game regardless of whether or not it is balanced as it infests PvP with cheese. Builds that provide nearly infinite stability or have mechanics that allow them to flat out ignore CC, long invuln durations, get carried by passive defenses, rely on skills with little to no cast time / animation tells, have unblockable + unevadeable combos = these are the problems that plague GW2 PvP today.

>

>

>

While I do believe, that you are right from a design-PoV, I dont think basing balance patches on functionality changes is a practical approach.

We have seen this multiple times already in the last 2 years alone.

 

The phantasm rework on mesmer for instance was a good design decision but ended up making it even more busted at the time.

Same for the deadeye and scrapper reworks respectively. The most recent Berserker rework on the other hand made the spec even clunkier and only gave it a somewhat busted gimmick (Arc divider) by accident.

 

Making funcionality changes is a very intricate process and more often than not create new problems, that haven't been there before. They shift and shuffle broken aspects instead of fixing them. On top of that, it also takes a lot of time (which isn't necessarily a bad thing) and slows down the overall balancing process.

 

Edit: Again, Im not saying, you are wrong with your statement. But Anet has a terrible track-record when making functionality changes (which also affect 3 gamemodes instead of pvp alone).

[Buran.3796]

> @"Elric.4713" said:

 

> How about no. Revenant was never suppose to be a runeblade wielding Death Knight like most of you on the forums keep suggesting, instead it's more like a successor to Ritualist, an invoker profession.

 

How the Revenant could be a ritualist or invoker when in 3.5 years the class has nothing in PvP but a power Herald build using sword and staff? Core Revenant is so weak that doesn't even exist at any task in the game once you unlock Herald, and Renegade is utterly absent from PvP/WvW. The only connection from Revs to Ritualist is that both wrap their eyes, but once they are good enough no longer need to do that (acording to Rytlock). To me the class seems like a blend between a Warrior and a Elementalist (which tunes utilities instead of weapon skills), so a heavy armor fighter with teleports.