New Elite Spec - Disciple (Weapon swap and Longbow!)

[Drizzt.1796]

> @"steki.1478" said:

>

> A revenant.

Good point.

 

 

[Opopanax.1803]

I like the general idea of weapon swap with reduced attunement benefit. I also like the longbow as an elite weapon.

[lLobo.7960]

With the new ExPac confirmed to be in Cantha, I really hope we get a martial arts ele with longbow!

[Kodama.6453]

While the idea is really creative.... I dislike that the devs tend to have to put too much work into elementalist.

Weaver required way more skills to get designed than any other class. I don't think it is really fair to always sink so much development time into elementalist. So I would prefer to go with a simpler solution than usual instead of making the work load even more.

 

Like designing a spec that gets big buffs and benefits from traits, but the class is restricted to just using 2 elements instead of all 4 and all previous weapons keep the skills they already had.

[lLobo.7960]

> @"Kodama.6453" said:

> While the idea is really creative.... I dislike that the devs tend to have to put too much work into elementalist.

> Weaver required way more skills to get designed than any other class. I don't think it is really fair to always sink so much development time into elementalist. So I would prefer to go with a simpler solution than usual instead of making the work load even more.

 

I think this is a bit misguided.

New skills require how much extra work? animations are mostly reused from all sources, visual effects? Does it require a lot of code to put another set of skills to a new/old weapon and place dmg numbers, CD, etc?

How much work goes into new ranger pets with their new models, behaviors, skills, etc, or soulbeast merging skills for new and old pets?

How much work goes into new shroud for necro, including visuals etc. Or druid celestial form, or engi holo mode? Those require a lot more than just some skill codes, they have new textures, new animations, new and unique effects...

How much work goes into firebrand tomes? with their very unique visuals and sequencing skills?

How much work goes into new mesmer clones and shatters?

 

I'm not saying that elementalists new specs don't require a lot of work due to higher number of skills.

I'm saying that the number in itself does not make it harder to do it than what other classes get.

 

But this is all assumptions from both of us... Devs would know best.

They done it before for the ele, I hope they can deliver again...

 

[Kodama.6453]

> @"lLobo.7960" said:

> > @"Kodama.6453" said:

> > While the idea is really creative.... I dislike that the devs tend to have to put too much work into elementalist.

> > Weaver required way more skills to get designed than any other class. I don't think it is really fair to always sink so much development time into elementalist. So I would prefer to go with a simpler solution than usual instead of making the work load even more.

>

> I think this is a bit misguided.

> New skills require how much extra work? animations are mostly reused from all sources, visual effects? Does it require a lot of code to put another set of skills to a new/old weapon and place dmg numbers, CD, etc?

> How much work goes into new ranger pets with their new models, behaviors, skills, etc, or soulbeast merging skills for new and old pets?

> How much work goes into new shroud for necro, including visuals etc. Or druid celestial form, or engi holo mode? Those require a lot more than just some skill codes, they have new textures, new animations, new and unique effects...

> How much work goes into firebrand tomes? with their very unique visuals and sequencing skills?

> How much work goes into new mesmer clones and shatters?

>

> I'm not saying that elementalists new specs don't require a lot of work due to higher number of skills.

> I'm saying that the number in itself does not make it harder to do it than what other classes get.

>

> But this is all assumptions from both of us... Devs would know best.

> They done it before for the ele, I hope they can deliver again...

>

 

You seem to just look at it from the coding perspective.

 

I am talking about the **entire development**.

More skills mean more work, that is obvious.

Someone has to come up with the concepts for every single skill.

The stuff needs to get tested and balanced. More skills mean more possible combinations which need to get tested and also more skills which baseline need to get tested if they are functioning properly.

 

Creating skills for a game is way more work than just cramming the code together.

And just because they already did sink way more extra time into elementalist by creating the weaver does not mean that they have to do it again.

 

Also this concept here has the problem that it basically requires the player to learn a completely new class if none of the weapon skills is functioning as they are used to anymore.

[lLobo.7960]

> @"Kodama.6453" said:

> You seem to just look at it from the coding perspective.

No, just the opposite, I'm saying other classes and e-specs can be just as much work as they require a lot of other things besides skills. New pets, new effects, shrouds, clones, etc... Ele has a bunch of skills, other classes have other things, that maybe require as much or more work from devs... I don't know, I'm not a dev. I'm just pointing out that other classes don't "just get 3 to 5 new skills".

> @"Kodama.6453" said:

> Creating skills for a game is way more work than just cramming the code together.

> And just because they already did sink way more extra time into elementalist by creating the weaver does not mean that they have to do it again.

Agreed. But elementalist main "thing" is the ammount of skills and their thematic towards the elements. If they just give the ele a few skills and call it a day "because we spent so much time on weaver the other time" it will be absolutely crap and leave a lot of ele mains in disapointment.

 

> @"Kodama.6453" said:

> Also this concept here has the problem that it basically requires the player to learn a completely new class if none of the weapon skills is functioning as they are used to anymore.

It will require the player to learn 40 new skills. The same amount it would require if the ele got a new 2-handed weapon. The same amount of skills you have on your staff (4 elements, 5 skill slots).

The benefit is that the old skills are not accessible in the new elite spec. That means that devs won't need to nerf old skills because of the new elite spec mechanics and interactions.

 

 

[Stephen.6312]

> @"lLobo.7960" said:

> The disciple is an elementalist that focus more on martial prowess than raw magic channeling.

> Focusing on martial expertise and physical prowess, the disciple can swap weapons in combat but looses the ability to have different and unique skills in each attunment and magical attacks.

> Instead, the disciple uses the elemental magic of attunements to boost its attacks and defenses and uses its weapons in martial combat instead of conduits to magic. To compensate the lack of long range magic attacks, the disciple uses a longbow to deliver his attacks from distance and physical skills to be mobile and effective in combat.

>

> **New weapon:** longbow

> **New utility skills:** physical skills

>

> #Traits:

> - minor adept: **Disciple training** - Gain access to weapon swap and longbow, looses all attunement specific skills on weapons and gain general weapon skills

> - major adept: **Solid like stone** - Gain stability and barrier when you block an attack.

> - major adept: **Devastating Winds of fury** - When you deal a critical hit to a disable foe, deliver a electric discharge to the foe. (high dmg secondary strike, 1s ICD)

> - major adept: **Physical mastery** - Physical skills have reduced cooldowns. Using a physical skill recovers some endurance.

>

> - minor master: **Speed training** - Gain superspeed (3s) when you gain swiftness, gain quickness (3s) when you gain superspeed (10s ICD)

> - major master: **Fluid like water** - Remove a condition and gain vigor when evading an attack.

> - major master: **Impairing fires of torment** - When you burn an enemy afflicted with movement impairing conditions, apply torment.

> - major master: **Combat mastery** - While in combat, any finishers (blast, projectile, leap, whirl) you trigger, are triggered twice.

>

> - minor grandmaster: **Weapon training** - Weapon swap cool down is reduced and gives boons based on attunement (fire: might, air: fury, earth: protection, water: regeneration)

> - major grandmaster: **Path of the riverstone** - You can attune to earth and water simultaneously, maintaining both attunements active at the same time. When both attunements are active, you convert 10% concentration into expertise and 10% expertise into concentration.

> - major grandmaster: **Path of the burning winds** - You can attune to fire and air simultaneously, maintaining both attunements active at the same time. When both attunements are active you convert 10% ferocity into condition damage and 10% condition damage into ferocity.

> - major grandmaster: **Path of the universal balance** - Whenever you have 3 attunements on cooldown, reset all attunements.

>

> #New weapon skills:

> Instead of having one new weapon with 20 new weapon skills, the disciple gain 1 new weapon (Longbow) and new skills for each weapon. The new skills are not unique per attunement (no unique skills or independent CD), instead the skills are the same independent of attunement but with slightly different effects for each attunement. (Note: not including numbers - dmg/duration/CD -)

>

> **Dagger:** Fast attacks and mobility

> 1: Auto-attack chain:

> - Quick strike: Strike your target twice dealing extra critical dmg to foes afflicted by dmging conditions (3 targets, 130 range)

> - Evasive strike: Spin around evading attacks and strike your target. If an attack is evaded, deal a condition based on attunement (A: vulnerability; F: burn; E: cripple; W: poison)

> - Elemental strike: Spin back striking up to 5 opponents close to you and dealing extra effects based on attunement (A: lightening strike hits foes; F: burn foes; E: bleed foes; W: heal allies)

> 2: Leap strike - Jump towards your target (300 range leap finisher) dealing a strong strike and releasing elemental magic at your location creating a field (A: static; F: fire; E: smoke; W: water)

> 3: Evasive spin strike - Jump and spin over your target (evade frame, whirl finisher x3) striking it 3 times and dealing conditions based on attunement (A: vulnerability; F: burn; E: cripple; W: poison)

> 4: Throw imbued dagger - Imbue your dagger with elemental magic and throw (projectile finisher) at your target dealing an effect based on attunement (A: stun; F: AoE burn; E: Knockdown; W: Chill)

> 5: Elemental furry - Quickly strike opponents in an arc in front of you (7 strikes) while dealing extra effects based on attunement (A: evade, F: burn with each strike; E: reflect projectiles; W: heal allies)

>

> **Staff:** Melee PBAoE and control

> 1: Auto-attack chain:

> - Swipe: Strike foes around you (5 targets PBAoE, 130 range)

> - High spin: Spin your staff high hitting nearby foes and creating an effect based on attunement (_A: gain static charge; F: gain might; E: block projectiles; W: heal nearby allies_)

> - Low slam: Bring your staff down in a powerful slam dealing high dmg and creating a effect based on attunement (_A: lightening strike at impact causes vulnerability to foes, F: fire blast burn foes around you; E: shrapnel blast bleeds foes around you; W: Ice blast chill foes around you_)

> 2: Charged Wave - Swipe your staff in front of you creating a wave of elemental energy (300 range cone) based on attunement (_A: lightening strikes foes; F: Burn foes; E: Cripple foes; W: Clear conditions from allies_)

> 3: Spinning Elemental Wall - Spin your staff (whirling finisher) in front of you blocking attacks. For each attack blocked create and effect based on attunement (_A: Gain fury and swiftness; F: cause a small explosion dealing dmg to foes around you; E: melee hits cause weakness on attacker, projectiles are reflected; W: heal allies_)

> 4: Charged dash strike - Dash towards you foe (600 range) with elemental power delivering a uppercut swing with your staff (_A: leave a static field on your path and knock back your target; F: Leave a fire field on your path and burn your target; E: cripple foes on your path and stun your target; W: leave a water field on your path and chill your target_)

> 5: Elemental Blast - Spike your staff down into the ground releasing 3 massive blasts (blast finisher each) of elemental energy (600 radius) (_A: knockback foes; F:burn and dmg foes; E: immobilize and cripple foes; W: heal and cleanse a condition from allies_)

>

> **Scepter:** Melee defense and counter-attack

> 1: Auto-attack chain:

> - Bash: Hit your foe across with your scepter

> - Smash: Smash your foe across dealing debilitating conditions based on attunement (_A: weakness; F: Blind; E: Cripple; W: Chill_)

> - Crush: Deliver a powerful final blow to your foe dealing high dmg and conditions based on attunement (_A: vulnerability; F: burn; E: bleed; W: poison_)

> 2: Elemental Bash: Strike down with a powerfull attack (blast finisher) and creating a small field based on attunement (_A: Static; F: fire; E: smoke; W: water_)

> 3: Use your scepter to block incoming attacks and deliver a strong counter attack based on attunement

> - Counterattack: (_A: stun your target; F: cause a explosion dealing dmg and burning targets around; E: knockdown your target; W: heal allies around you_)

>

> **Focus:** defense

> 4: Elemental aura - Focus your elemental power into your core creating an aura based on your attunement;

> - Transmute your aura.

> 5: Elemental shield - Condense the elemental forces into a shield blocking attacks and causing special effects based on attunement (_A: gain quickness for each attack blocked; F: gain might for each attack blocked; E: inflict weakness to foes that strike you; W: chill foes that attack you_)

> - Release the concentrated force (blast finisher) causing an effect based on attunement (_A: break stun and launch foes around you; F: Clear dmging conditions and burn foes; E: clear movement impairing conditions and reflect projectiles; W: Heal and grant regeneration to allies_)

>

> **Longbow** Long range (1200) weapon

> 1: Imbue shot - Fire an arrow with imbued energy giving it special properties based on your attunement (_A: Static charge extra hit; F: AoE explosion; E: Pierce; W: Heal around target_)

> 2: Quickfire - Fire multiple arrows in succession (projectile finisher) dealing conditions based on attunement (_A: Vulnerability; F: Burn; E: Bleed; W: poison_)

> 3: Fan fire - Fire four arrows in a fan in front of you dealing conditions based on attunement, if all arrows hit the same target create a special effect (_A: daze/stun; F: burn/AoE dmg; E: Cripple/Immobilize; W: Chill/Frozen stun_)

> 4: Charged shot - Charge a shot with powerful elemental magic and fire it for devastating effect (_A: Push back foes on its path and cause a massive lightening bolt on its target; F: burn foes in its path and cause a large fire explosion in its target; E: immobilize foes in its path and knockdown its target; W: heal allies in its path and clear conditions around its target_)

> 5: Elemental tempest - Fire multiple arrows up towards the target area causing multiple hits in a large area and creating a large elemental field (_A: lightening strikes the area leaves static field; F: fire explosions strikes the area leaving fire field; E: crippling shards strike the area leaving uneven ground field that pulses cripple; W: Healing arrows strike the area healing allies and leaving an ice field_)

>

> **Trident**

> Some other time

>

> #New utility skills - Physical skills

> **Balance in all things** (heal) - Quickly channel the power of elements to improve your physical capacity and battle prowess. Four pulses one for each element (Fire: remove 2 dmging conditions and heal for each condition removed; Air: Recover 20 endurance and heal for endurance recovered; Earth: Remove 2 movement impairing conditions and heal for each condition removed; Water: final and largest heal)

> **Air rush** - Stunbreak, gain fury and swiftness dash forward and jump 1200 units at great speed towards your target

> **Earth stomp** - Deliver a powerful stomp to the ground creating a seismic shockwave that block projectiles and knocks-down and cripple foes around you

> **Fire blast** - Use fire to lunch yourself forward (900 range) to the target area, dmaging and burning foes at your launch and landing locations (blast finisher)

> **Ice shards** - Create and quickly throw a series (4) of ice shards towards your target (projectile finisher) each shard applies chill, if all hit the same target it will be stunned

> **Moment of clarity** (elite 30s CD) - When you activate this skill, for the next 10 seconds any attunement you use will remain active even after swapping to another attunement, enabling you to gain the benefits of multiple attunements at the same time. When all attunements are active simultaneously you gain access to "all is nothing". (For other skill purposes, such as glyphs, the active attunement is the last to be activated) After 10 seconds (if you don't use the followup skill "all is nothing) all attunements are refreshed, the skill goes into full CD and you are left in the attunement you activated last.

> - **All is nothing:** When you activate this followup skill, you release a powerful burst of elemental energy dazing and transferring conditions to 10 foes around you, breaking stun and copying boons to 10 allies. "Moment of clarity" goes into doubled CD and all your attunements are refreshed.

>

> TL/DR: Martial focus elementalist with long range dps as longbow, weapon swap instead of individual attunement skills, mobility, new conditions (torment and poison), and even stealth with combos. Instead of one weapon with 20 new skills, gains one weapon with 5 new skills and new skills for each old weapon (staff 5, scepter 3, dagger 5, focus 2). Staff and dagger become melee versions, scepter becomes akin to mace and focus akin to shield.

 

Not a fan of using a bow as an elementalist. I love the enthusiasm but I can see myself hating the playstyle.

[Ganathar.4956]

> @"lLobo.7960" said:

> > @"Kodama.6453" said:

> > You seem to just look at it from the coding perspective.

> No, just the opposite, I'm saying other classes and e-specs can be just as much work as they require a lot of other things besides skills. New pets, new effects, shrouds, clones, etc... Ele has a bunch of skills, other classes have other things, that maybe require as much or more work from devs... I don't know, I'm not a dev. I'm just pointing out that other classes don't "just get 3 to 5 new skills".

> > @"Kodama.6453" said:

> > Creating skills for a game is way more work than just cramming the code together.

> > And just because they already did sink way more extra time into elementalist by creating the weaver does not mean that they have to do it again.

> Agreed. But elementalist main "thing" is the ammount of skills and their thematic towards the elements. If they just give the ele a few skills and call it a day "because we spent so much time on weaver the other time" it will be absolutely kitten and leave a lot of ele mains in disapointment.

>

> > @"Kodama.6453" said:

> > Also this concept here has the problem that it basically requires the player to learn a completely new class if none of the weapon skills is functioning as they are used to anymore.

> It will require the player to learn 40 new skills. The same amount it would require if the ele got a new 2-handed weapon. The same amount of skills you have on your staff (4 elements, 5 skill slots).

> The benefit is that the old skills are not accessible in the new elite spec. That means that devs won't need to nerf old skills because of the new elite spec mechanics and interactions.

>

>

 

Actually the number of skills they had to design for weaver is what led it to this mess balance-wise. It's also why they were so conservative when weaver was released, which led to it being a terrible spec in competitive modes, while other classes had elites running rampant that broke the game modes for years. What elementalist needs is a small amount of skills in the next spec; Skills that have thought put into how they function, instead of the random skills they made carelessly because they didn't have the time to design so many skills. Elementalist already has lots of skills, so a new spec does not need to add 40 more. What the class is missing is something with high impact.

 

I would very much rather 1 or 2 new skills that are incredibly impactful. Or perhaps a form like shroud or photon forge replacing an attunement of your choice. That way they actually have a chance of understanding what they are trying to balance. Spamming skills that barely do anything is already covered by weaver anyway. Elite specs are supposed to be a change of playstyle.

 

[lLobo.7960]

> @"Ganathar.4956" said:

> Actually the number of skills they had to design for weaver is what led it to this mess balance-wise. It's also why they were so conservative when weaver was released, which led to it being a terrible spec in competitive modes, while other classes had elites running rampant that broke the game modes for years. What elementalist needs is a small amount of skills in the next spec; Skills that have thought put into how they function, instead of the random skills they made carelessly because they didn't have the time to design so many skills. Elementalist already has lots of skills, so a new spec does not need to add 40 more. What the class is missing is something with high impact.

>

> I would very much rather 1 or 2 new skills that are incredibly impactful. Or perhaps a form like shroud or photon forge replacing an attunement of your choice. That way they actually have a chance of understanding what they are trying to balance. Spamming skills that barely do anything is already covered by weaver anyway. Elite specs are supposed to be a change of playstyle.

>

You would actually have less skills as a Disciple.

While Weaver adds new skills to dual attunement combinations, giving elementalist a set of 46 skills with each weapon set (5 from each attunement, 6 dual skills).

Disciple would only have access to 10 skills. 5 from each equipped weapon set (with weapon swap). The only difference is the small effects that attunements would add to the skills, such as conditions or variations (knockback or stun, AoE heal or AoE dmg, double strike or pierce). There would be no 40 independent CDs, just 10 as other classes.

The benefits is that those skills would be all exclusive from Disciple, so balancing them would have no changes to core ele or waver/tempest, making the e-spec easier to handle from a balancing perspective.

Because it would have access to less skills, they can be more impactful and with lower CDs, and the ele would still have the versatility of tailoring some minor effects of those skills based on attunement/fight style used...

 

So, the elite spec would get the same amount of skills as an usual elementalist elite with 4 attunements and a new 2H weapon. The elite spec would have less skills available than the core or the other elites, but be able to fine tune those skills better and have weapon swap.

 

> @"Stephen.6312" said:

> Not a fan of using a bow as an elementalist. I love the enthusiasm but I can see myself hating the playstyle.

You don't need to use bow. You can use daggers or staff, (or both with weapon swap!) and would still have new skills for you to try.

The playstyle is a bit less magic and more martial arts, with attunments becoming more like fight styles and adding small effects to your skills (so using your dagger attacks in fire burns targets, while in air strikes them with lightning)