Is it just me or is the Mirage not "mirage-y" enough and too similar to core mesmer?

[Cantatus.4065]

"Not mirage-y" enough is a good description. I'll continue to defend that I think Mirage has a good (and really fun) base, but I just don't think they went far enough with any of the mechanics to really make Mirage distinct enough. There's very little interaction with our shatters, primarily just one mirror generation trait. There's zero with our phantasms, which would be fine since I think Mirage is supposed to be more clone-reliant (which I have no issue with), except clones don't really make up the difference to where you want to use them (and shatters) over phantasms - especially since you have to spec into IH to get them to use ambushes to get them to do more damage. Like Llethander said, we only have a handful of ways to generate mirrors which is supposed to be one of our core mechanics but including them in your build really limits your flexibility in terms of utility. We now have two ways of breaking an enemy's targeting and refocusing our illusions, but you can only use one unless you use the axe.

 

There's just not enough that is baseline Mirage. When you have very little interaction with Mesmer's core mechanics - shatters, phantasms, and clones - it starts to feel like Mirage is just a Mesmer with a few tweaks. This is especially true as you take fewer Deception skills since they bring nearly all the movement and mirror generating aspects of the spec. Granted, I know a lot of what separates an elite spec is it's utility skills, but if I only take one or two skills on my Firebrand, for example, he still feels like his own thing due to the Virtues becoming Tomes. Similarly, I feel like I can get away with not taking some Wells with Chrono (and look at how many meta build suggest just that) while still feeling sufficiently unique and still bringing its mechanics to the table. With Mirage, the fewer Deception skills you take, the more it's like having to choose between giving up movement, mirror generation, or illusion target switching - and then you're giving up core mechanics to the point where you just aren't feeling Mirage-y enough anymore.

[Riku.4821]

> @Amityel.5324 said:

> think is you can recognize core mesmer easily by dodges and attack that illusions do not do......mirage improved it so enemy cant see when if you dodge and if you take grandmaster trait they dunno if you or your illusion is doing ambush attacks

 

Yeah but, clones don't.. you know.. move. Or attack outside of pressing one. A PvP player will do both of those things. So its not hard to say "oh wow that 'clone' running sideways/backwards/away/X Y Z must be the real mesmer".

 

@"Sodeni.6041" : Mirage is a joke. It's not bad, but its a joke. I don't know what lead or producer let this elite spec pass the drawing board, but its a joke and an insult to mesmer players.

[Razor.9872]

I don't really play mesmer at all much, I'm mostly always getting destroyed by you guys. But even I agree IH should be baseline.

[Lethion.8745]

"The mirage moves through battle like shifting sand, cloaking themselves rather than dodging attacks."

 

I think your point in what the theme of mirage is wrong. In regards the description in official site and the name of "Mirage", it's not a elite spec which is supposed to be a "illusionist". It should be considered as a mobile, hard-to-hit version of mesmer. Mirage doesn't cast illusions, it's like a illusion in its own. Lines are shouted by mirage in mirage cloak like "Maybe I am the illusion" and "I'm neither here nor there" great example for my point. But i wish it was a elite spec which is you said that it was supposed to be. It's dissapointing that how mesmers can't focus keeping alive its illusions rather than shattering them and make its opponents to shuffle their target in PvP.

[Sodeni.6041]

> @Cantatus.4065 said:

> "Not mirage-y" enough is a good description. I'll continue to defend that I think Mirage has a good (and really fun) base, but I just don't think they went far enough with any of the mechanics to really make Mirage distinct enough. There's very little interaction with our shatters, primarily just one mirror generation trait. There's zero with our phantasms, which would be fine since I think Mirage is supposed to be more clone-reliant (which I have no issue with), except clones don't really make up the difference to where you want to use them (and shatters) over phantasms - especially since you have to spec into IH to get them to use ambushes to get them to do more damage. Like Llethander said, we only have a handful of ways to generate mirrors which is supposed to be one of our core mechanics but including them in your build really limits your flexibility in terms of utility. We now have two ways of breaking an enemy's targeting and refocusing our illusions, but you can only use one unless you use the axe.

>

> There's just not enough that is baseline Mirage. When you have very little interaction with Mesmer's core mechanics - shatters, phantasms, and clones - it starts to feel like Mirage is just a Mesmer with a few tweaks. This is especially true as you take fewer Deception skills since they bring nearly all the movement and mirror generating aspects of the spec. Granted, I know a lot of what separates an elite spec is it's utility skills, but if I only take one or two skills on my Firebrand, for example, he still feels like his own thing due to the Virtues becoming Tomes. Similarly, I feel like I can get away with not taking some Wells with Chrono (and look at how many meta build suggest just that) while still feeling sufficiently unique and still bringing its mechanics to the table. With Mirage, the fewer Deception skills you take, the more it's like having to choose between giving up movement, mirror generation, or illusion target switching - and then you're giving up core mechanics to the point where you just aren't feeling Mirage-y enough anymore.

 

That's one of the best explanations about what's wrong with the mirage I've read!

I really hope that someone of the balance/elite spec dev team reads that.

[Sodeni.6041]

> @Lethion.8745 said:

> "The mirage moves through battle like shifting sand, cloaking themselves rather than dodging attacks."

>

> I think your point in what the theme of mirage is wrong. In regards the description in official site and the name of "Mirage", it's not a elite spec which is supposed to be a "illusionist". It should be considered as a mobile, hard-to-hit version of mesmer. Mirage doesn't cast illusions, it's like a illusion in its own. Lines are shouted by mirage in mirage cloak like "Maybe I am the illusion" and "I'm neither here nor there" great example for my point. But i wish it was a elite spec which is you said that it was supposed to be. It's dissapointing that how mesmers can't focus keeping alive its illusions rather than shattering them and make its opponents to shuffle their target in PvP.

 

Exactly! Thinking about how not-illusionary this elite spec is makes me actually sad as a mesmer main.

[Carighan.6758]

Fully agreed. Mirage is what core Mesmer should be, at the very least (actually it doesn't even solve half the issues the base class has).

 

Further, look at Spellbreakers: To a certain degree, that elite spec implements mechanics which should have been part of the base Mesmer toolkit. Which just goes to show how broken core Mesmer is.

[Jokubas.4265]

I think part of the problem with Mirage is that key elements of it like "which illusion is the real Mesmer" is theoretically a major theme of the baseline class. Mirage finally gets the ability to retarget illusions, which is something many people expected and wanted from the Mesmer from the beginning. It's a little bit like Chronomancer giving Mesmer the much-needed movement speed buff, except this is relevant to the class identity itself and not just general balance. At the very least, Illusionary Ambush should be a baseline skill, since that's a basic element of deceiving your enemy with illusions. The Mirage should have done more with the Ambush skills and the dodge, instead of relying on skills that fit the original class.

 

They said they decided on Mirage early on because the name was perfect, but perhaps it was _too_ perfect. It sounds like a synonym for what a Mesmer is, like a regional name for the profession, rather than a _variant_ in the way that Chronomancer was.

[Warlyx.6732]

> @Jokubas.4265 said:

> I think part of the problem with Mirage is that key elements of it like "which illusion is the real Mesmer" is theoretically a major theme of the baseline class. Mirage finally gets the ability to retarget illusions, which is something many people expected and wanted from the Mesmer from the beginning. It's a little bit like Chronomancer giving Mesmer the much-needed movement speed buff, except this is relevant to the class identity itself and not just general balance. At the very least, Illusionary Ambush should be a baseline skill, since that's a basic element of deceiving your enemy with illusions. The Mirage should have done more with the Ambush skills and the dodge, instead of relying on skills that fit the original class.

>

> They said they decided on Mirage early on because the name was perfect, but perhaps it was _too_ perfect. It sounds like a synonym for what a Mesmer is, like a regional name for the profession, rather than a _variant_ in the way that Chronomancer was.

 

to be fair retargeting should have been F5 instead of #3 on axe

[Carighan.6758]

> @Warlyx.6732 said:

> to be fair retargeting should have been F5 instead of #3 on axe

 

Though I agree it should be a base button, the last thing this class needs is more things to juggle. At least remove another shatter for it by folding the (frankly utterly redundant) F1 and F2 into one.

[Curunen.8729]

> @Carighan.6758 said:

> > @Warlyx.6732 said:

> > to be fair retargeting should have been F5 instead of #3 on axe

>

> Though I agree it should be a base button, the last thing this class needs is more things to juggle. At least remove another shatter for it by folding the (frankly utterly redundant) F1 and F2 into one.

 

I would so love if F1 and F2 were merged into a single damage application shatter.

 

(inb4 power mesmers "no but f2 is for boonstrip" or otherwise just proccing a trait... yeah well then rebalance all traits around 3 core shatters rather than 4 shatters. Would be less shatter spam then, especially with chrono)

[Sodeni.6041]

> @Carighan.6758 said:

> Fully agreed. Mirage is what core Mesmer should be, at the very least

 

Absolutely. Even if core mesmer had ambush attacks and built-in infinite horizon, mesmer would still be weak in terms of damage and, as you said, even this would not adress all the issues mesmer has.

 

 

[Sodeni.6041]

> @Jokubas.4265 said:

> I think part of the problem with Mirage is that key elements of it like "which illusion is the real Mesmer" is theoretically a major theme of the baseline class.

 

Yeah this is also one of my major concerns. Mirage feels too much like a normal mesmer and not like a fresh new elite specialisation that lets the mesmer play differently.

 

[Sodeni.6041]

> @Warlyx.6732 said:

> > @Jokubas.4265 said:

> > I think part of the problem with Mirage is that key elements of it like "which illusion is the real Mesmer" is theoretically a major theme of the baseline class. Mirage finally gets the ability to retarget illusions, which is something many people expected and wanted from the Mesmer from the beginning. It's a little bit like Chronomancer giving Mesmer the much-needed movement speed buff, except this is relevant to the class identity itself and not just general balance. At the very least, Illusionary Ambush should be a baseline skill, since that's a basic element of deceiving your enemy with illusions. The Mirage should have done more with the Ambush skills and the dodge, instead of relying on skills that fit the original class.

> >

> > They said they decided on Mirage early on because the name was perfect, but perhaps it was _too_ perfect. It sounds like a synonym for what a Mesmer is, like a regional name for the profession, rather than a _variant_ in the way that Chronomancer was.

>

> to be fair retargeting should have been F5 instead of #3 on axe

 

In my opinion, the utility skills "illusionary ambush", "sand through glass" and "crystal sands" of the Mirage should replace f1-f3. They don't feel rewarding enough to take them as an utility (like retargeting or a small evade) but as a core ability they would absolutely fit better. Illusionary ambush and mirage advance should be fused to one skill that retargets illusions, give mirage cloak and lets you return to your original position, as well, to make it effective.

 

If a mirage doesn't take these abilities it feels even more like a normal mesmer except the ambush attacks. Making these skills core skills would absolutely give the mirage a better theme.

[Mayama.1854]

Imo mirage clones should have full access to all your primary weapon skills (you can lower their damage, its more about confusing the enemy)

and the clones should punish enemies hard if they kill one instead of the real mesmer.

 

I would go further and completly remove phantasm from mirage.

You could replace those skills with a simple one use attack from the mesmer, like for example phantasmal mage would give you fury and one aplication of 2 burns.

Adjust cooldown accordingly, traits apply to the skill instead.

 

I agree with everyone that mirage is closer to what a base mesmer should have been from the beginning.

[Incognito.3529]

> @Sodeni.6041 said:

> The theme of the mirage is to deceive your enemies so they don't know who the actual mesmer is. However, isn't core mesmer already capable of doing that with clones/stealth?

>

> The only thing mirage adds is breaking enemy targeting with 2 new skills but this is kinda neglectable, even in PvP, because the enemy just has to press "tab" and instantly switches to the real mesmer again.

>

> And ambush attacks aren't really "mirage-y" either because they are just special attacks you can do in mirage cloak.

>

> So what is the mirage's actual purpose? I wonder why the devs decided to make this spec although its already very similar to core mesmer.

 

I think developers decide to save a lot of time by making elite specialization with very low chance of breaking (which will require even more complex work) something in game. I mean, they called Scourge "a spec with highest potential to be gamebreaking" on recent AMA. Yeah just because of totem mechanic.

 

Mesmer have giant, unlimited potential, in fact its way too big and time consuming for current developers team. Thats it, case closed.

[Carighan.6758]

And to be fair, Scourge was heavily pushed as a supportive spec for Necros, since core Necro is already a strong condi setup and - assuming they would ever invest the 10 seconds of dev time - Reaper was originally pushes as a strong but slow power setup.

 

And what did Scourge turn out to be? Condi! Woopdidoo!

 

Is it any surprise that all Mirage has which fells mirage-y is that there is some pretty artwork on the gfx summoned by False Oasis?

 

The biggest issue of this elite spec is that it just doesn't have a theme. There's no connecting element to what it does. No unique aspect it brings. The dodge/ambush could be it, if the elite spec was tooled around it. But it isn't, it has this plethora of non-fitting elements in it, and ofc some of that is inherited from the same problem plagueing the base class.

 

If anything, shatter/phantasms/clones should all be rethought and/or dropped, and Cloak/Ambush could be a sensible core Mesmer mechanic. Then a **highly** upgraded Clone-mechanic (but not shatter/phantasms!) could be the Mirage "thing".

[Cantatus.4065]

> @Sodeni.6041 said:

> > @Warlyx.6732 said:

> > > @Jokubas.4265 said:

> > > I think part of the problem with Mirage is that key elements of it like "which illusion is the real Mesmer" is theoretically a major theme of the baseline class. Mirage finally gets the ability to retarget illusions, which is something many people expected and wanted from the Mesmer from the beginning. It's a little bit like Chronomancer giving Mesmer the much-needed movement speed buff, except this is relevant to the class identity itself and not just general balance. At the very least, Illusionary Ambush should be a baseline skill, since that's a basic element of deceiving your enemy with illusions. The Mirage should have done more with the Ambush skills and the dodge, instead of relying on skills that fit the original class.

> > >

> > > They said they decided on Mirage early on because the name was perfect, but perhaps it was _too_ perfect. It sounds like a synonym for what a Mesmer is, like a regional name for the profession, rather than a _variant_ in the way that Chronomancer was.

> >

> > to be fair retargeting should have been F5 instead of #3 on axe

>

> In my opinion, the utility skills "illusionary ambush", "sand through glass" and "crystal sands" of the Mirage should replace f1-f3. They don't feel rewarding enough to take them as an utility (like retargeting or a small evade) but as a core ability they would absolutely fit better. Illusionary ambush and mirage advance should be fused to one skill that retargets illusions, give mirage cloak and lets you return to your original position, as well, to make it effective.

>

> If a mirage doesn't take these abilities it feels even more like a normal mesmer except the ambush attacks. Making these skills core skills would absolutely give the mirage a better theme.

 

Agreed, like I said, there isn't enough that is "core mirage." A lot of the things we see in our utility skills would've been better suited to this as they sufficiently make the class play differently, but aren't powerful enough to warrant choosing them over something else. Something like illusionary ambush's ability to retarget illusions fits into the whole mirage-y "who's the real one?" ability to create confusion but at the same time - since mirage looks to be more designed around clone generation and shatters - doesn't really add to a mirage's power much (and sort of seems counter to it in some respects). Adding the mechanic to one of our shatters (eg Mind Wrack now only applies to phantasms with damage done depending on how many illusions are active, clones refocus on whatever target you have selected) would've given us better access to the mechanic and made it feel more intrinsic to what the mirage is. It also would've removed the need to have almost the exact same skill twice.

 

I'm still not entirely sure what I'd do with mirrors though since I'm not in love with the whole "figure out where is spawned and go run into it!" thing. Would've been cool if mirrors actually functioned like mirrors and summoned a stationary clone that mimicked every action we made.

 

> @Carighan.6758 said:

 

> The biggest issue of this elite spec is that it just doesn't have a theme. There's no connecting element to what it does. No unique aspect it brings. The dodge/ambush could be it, if the elite spec was tooled around it. But it isn't, it has this plethora of non-fitting elements in it, and ofc some of that is inherited from the same problem plagueing the base class.

 

I'd actually argue the opposite. Mirage _does_ have a theme: Deception by hiding among your clones. And that might be part of the problem. It's just not a very deep theme in large part because that has a lot of overlap with what the mesmer already can do. Hence why mirage's mechanics are spread so thinly. It's also a theme that's more reliant on your opponent's skill which I'd theorize is the reason why they let the design be restrained by the theme.

[Carighan.6758]

> @Cantatus.4065 said:

> I'd actually argue the opposite. Mirage _does_ have a theme: Deception by hiding among your clones. And that might be part of the problem. It's just not a very deep theme in large part because that has a lot of overlap with what the mesmer already can do. Hence why mirage's mechanics are spread so thinly. It's also a theme that's more reliant on your opponent's skill which I'd theorize is the reason why they let the design be restrained by the theme.

 

That is **one potential** theme. But one that isn't realized.

 

* Ambush skills.

* Mirage Cloak

* Mirage Mirrors

* Deception skills other than Mirage Ambush

* Weapon skills other than Axe 3

* Shatters

* Phantasms

 

What about this realizes "Hiding among your clones?

 

The only things which hint at such a theme are the two skills which break targeting, and Infinite Horizon. That's literally it. Hence what I said, "no connecting theme". There's 5 ideas strewn into the elite spec, none of which fit one another.

[Cantatus.4065]

Ambush skills, when coupled with IH, work to confuse your opponent by having you and all of your clones take the same action. Mirage mirrors work with this mechanic when specced as well. Mirage Cloak is a stationary dodge, which is designed to make us not as easy to pick out since we aren't dodge rolling all over the place. Mirage Advance and Jaunt can work similarly (getting us in and out of danger less obviously). Shatters and phantasms barely have any integration with the mirage one way or the other, a big complaint of mine.

 

Make no mistake, I'm not saying this is a solid theme, precisely the opposite - at least as far as it's currently implemented. Just, as far as I can tell, if you look at the entire spec and all of its tools this was the theme they had in mind when they were designing the class. But, like I said, I don't think it's something they went very deep with since it doesn't add many new mechanics to a class that could already accomplish many of these things. And that's why I think it can feel disconnected since so many of our mechanics are spread so thinly that things that should've been more baseline to the class - IH and mirror generation primarily - are things you can play the mirage without.

 

That's one of the things I don't like about the mirage. It's sort of "all or nothing". Either you take everything or you're having to pick which of mirage's mechanics to do without which makes you feel less and less like an individually realized spec. My firebrand never has to give up any of his tomes. He can even generate quickness with pre-PoF abilities if he doesn't take mantras. A weaver can weave regardless of what weapons and skills they use. A soulbeast can merge with their pet no matter how they spec. So why does mirage have to pick and choose between their mechanics so much? The only thing that's really guaranteed is ambush skills which isn't much, especially compared with the other elite specs.

[Harry Foud.1935]

Although it's my main class and I love both the name and the idea behind it, the sad fact is that they've done many mistakes with Mirage. And i'm not talking just about bugs. I agree that Mesmer has so so so many opportunities that the devs are overwelmed. So when they though of the amazing name they settled with little. Half of Mirage is basically what core Mesmer should be. The idea to fool your enemies with illusions is what Mesmer is. I just want an answer from the devs. A simple "we're looking into it" would be enough. I highly doubt that they will rework him, they may change the numbers, and do some small changes and bug fixes but overall it should be the same. I just hope we get something better in the new expansion. I'm so dissapointed.

[Amethyst Lure.5624]

I actually really enjoy Mirage, but at the same time I can agree with those that say it is kind of more what a base mesmer should be. To play it in open world has re-invigorated what made me initially start this game as a mesmer, since you don't actually care quite as much about the shatter dilemma depending on your utilities and trait synergies. Also obviously depending on game mode, since wherever I have to sit and camp phantasms feels like lacking gameplay to me.

 

> @Carighan.6758 said:

> Fully agreed. Mirage is what core Mesmer should be, at the very least (actually it doesn't even solve half the issues the base class has).

>

> Further, look at Spellbreakers: To a certain degree, that elite spec implements mechanics which should have been part of the base Mesmer toolkit. Which just goes to show how broken core Mesmer is.

 

I actually think they are doing like, multiclass or GW1 selections with especially the new line of elite specs. Thief is like a necro-thief, Spellbreaker mes-warrior, Soulbeast thief-ranger (it even steals the pet skills. :P), Firebrand ele-guardian, Reneade Engi-rev with toolbelt skills and so on. I don't know if it's intended but that really struck me early on.

[Sodeni.6041]

> @Cantatus.4065 said:

> That's one of the things I don't like about the mirage. It's sort of "all or nothing". Either you take everything or you're having to pick which of mirage's mechanics to do without which makes you feel less and less like an individually realized spec. My firebrand never has to give up any of his tomes. He can even generate quickness with pre-PoF abilities if he doesn't take mantras. A weaver can weave regardless of what weapons and skills they use. A soulbeast can merge with their pet no matter how they spec. So why does mirage have to pick and choose between their mechanics so much? The only thing that's really guaranteed is ambush skills which isn't much, especially compared with the other elite specs.

 

I really think this is a very great point in what's wrong with the mirage. Basically every mechanic is locked behind traits or utilities.

 

Want an extra mirage cloak? Utility.

Want to retarget clones without having to use an axe? Utility.

Want to have a mirage mirror (which are not even a good mechanic to start with)? Utility or trait.

Want your illusions to also have ambush attacks which they should already have to begin with? Trait.

 

That's why I suggested that "illusionary ambush", "sand through glass" and "crystal sands" should replace f1-f3 and infinite horizon should be baseline.

I hope the devs listen to our feedback! I just want them to give a response at least. There is so much feedback on this forum and it really hurts to not see a single dev commenting on it.

 

 

[Sodeni.6041]

> @"Harry Foud.1935" said:

> Although it's my main class and I love both the name and the idea behind it, the sad fact is that they've done many mistakes with Mirage. And i'm not talking just about bugs. I agree that Mesmer has so so so many opportunities that the devs are overwelmed. So when they though of the amazing name they settled with little. Half of Mirage is basically what core Mesmer should be. The idea to fool your enemies with illusions is what Mesmer is. I just want an answer from the devs. A simple "we're looking into it" would be enough. I highly doubt that they will rework him, they may change the numbers, and do some small changes and bug fixes but overall it should be the same. I just hope we get something better in the new expansion. I'm so dissapointed.

 

I really want to have a dev statement ab out the mirage's state. I hope they don't believe everything is fine with this spec. I hope they listen to the community!

[Harry Foud.1935]

> @Sodeni.6041 said:

> I really want to have a dev statement ab out the mirage's state. I hope they don't believe everything is fine with this spec. I hope they listen to the community!

 

 

> @Sodeni.6041 said:

> I hope the devs listen to our feedback! I just want them to give a response at least. There is so much feedback on this forum and it really hurts to not see a single dev commenting on it.

My thoughts exactly it's just disheartening not to have a singe statement. To let us know that at least they are aware of the problems, of the bugs. That they are aware of what the community is saying. I dont know mate, a simple "we're looking into it" would be fine. They have time to look for a ranger's single pet (gazelle) but not for a whole spec. Maybe that's the reason, that the whole spec has so many problems that they don't know where to begin. sigh.....