Coulter.2315 Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 > @Sublimatio.6981 said: >we live in times where patriarchy still dominates our societies/cultures. Try and get a flight out of Saudi, it's fine in the West. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witcher.3197 Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 It's been an ongoing theme recently that male = weak or crazy evil, and female = strong, smart, and almost always good. I really have no problem with gender imbalance in the pantheon or whatever, but I do dislike Anet's SJW agenade in the writing. I want somewhat realistic characters and have no problem with strong female ones, but when every single one of them is basically a superhero then yeah that gets old quickly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rognik.2579 Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 > @Weindrasi.3805 said: > The Flame Legion oppressed all women because a woman spoke out against them... Actually, at least according to the articles released before the game launched, the Flame Legion had been oppressing women before the time of the Searing. Kalla was just the main female to organize other female warriors (read: combatants) to fight back against the Flame Legion and reintegrate them into the warband hierarchy. Before Kalla's rebellion, the female charr were presumably kept far away from the front lines, breeding, cooking and all that jazz. > A real world equivalent would be--a woman takes a gun and shoots a bunch of people. Therefore, it becomes United States law that no woman can own a gun. Crazy, right? Given the state of the world right now, it doesn't seem that crazy at all to me, sadly. :/ > @Zenith.7301 said: > Rytlock being the first revenant is absurd on its face to begin with. Charr would be the last race to invent channeling legends, and other more spiritual races have been channeling the power of the mists for far longer, including the Norn shamans. > > More importantly, you sidestepped my reference to it being Kalla, a virtual unknown to most GW players, instead of Pyre just so they could check their intersectional box off. Rytlock didn't "invent" being a revenant, but instead learned its secrets while he was travelling in the Mists. It's not that a norn couldn't have done it, but they never entered the right part of the Mists. In fact, the PoF story seems to tell us that Glint herself taught Rytlock how to channel the spirits, or at least an echo of her. Kalla is only an unknown to GW players if you haven't explored the new world. There's probably much more lore about her in GW2 than Pyre, who I think is maybe one of the statues in the Black Citadel, while Kalla has 2 statues: one in Black Citadel as well, and one in the Ashford Plains. I think the more important question is why shouldn't they make a legend that happened after GW1 rather than before or during? 250 years is a long time, and there were heroes who rose during that time, as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
castlemanic.3198 Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 > @Zenith.7301 said: > Rytlock being the first revenant is absurd on its face to begin with. Charr would be the last race to invent channeling legends, and other more spiritual races have been channeling the power of the mists for far longer, including the Norn shamans. Except Rytlock didn't invent it, he was taught by Glint. While Glint gained a ton of respect for her power of prophecy, Rytlock (still) has huge guilt issues regarding Glint's death and his part in it, so not only does the aspect of "this is a dragon with the power of prophecy telling you to do something, so you should" exist, but there's also the side part of dealing with his guilt (in whatever manner Rytlock may perceive it as, whether it's a masochistic "literally living with the object of your guilt", the learning from an old friend you let down to make it up to them in some slight way, a "this new magic will surely help deal with the dragons", or something else entirely). (Side note: I know we have no idea how Glint's prophecy ability works after her death or even if it still exists, but it's more the idea of "she has gained a ton of respect" rather than her actual prophecy abilities in this one scenario. She's also a dragon, so that's worth something too.) > More importantly, you sidestepped my reference to it being Kalla, a virtual unknown to most GW players, instead of Pyre just so they could check their intersectional box off. I didn't think it was worth addressing for a couple of reasons. First is that I think it's a great move for them to have chosen a second female character for more representation, not something to be criticised. Second of all, it makes more lore sense to pick Kalla, who was the key to defeating the flame legion and has a ton of lore built up around her regarding that, than Pyre, who didn't accomplish anything near what Kalla did. Besides, Pyre is Kalla's grandsire, so it's not like he's entirely left on the sidelines. It just makes more sense from a lore perspective to pick a charr who has the respect of all three legions, even if it conflicts with players wishes for Pyre. On top of that, the devs should not be restrained to using GW1 characters when the lore has expanded in GW2, especially with the 250 year gap between the two. > @Coulter.2315 said: > > @Sublimatio.6981 said: > >we live in times where patriarchy still dominates our societies/cultures. > > Try and get a flight out of Saudi, it's fine in the West. It's not fine in the west, it's still an issue. Just because it's worse elsewhere doesn't mean it's non-existent where you are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
draxynnic.3719 Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 One of Glint's memory crystals, in fact, indicated that she couldn't see beyond her own death. Her echo in the Mists might be different, but I suspect Glint's gift of prophecy is gone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Felipe.1807 Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 I kind of allready noticed this too lol, but honestly i dont really care about it, its the devs choice in the end of the day...its not only the gods, but the dragons too, Zhaitan, Kralkatorrik, Jormag, Primordius, Mordremoth are all male and evil, while the females ones Glint and Aurene are good...the only male dragon that was good was Vlast. Since people are talking about it, the revenant stuff...i think is really stupid that Rytlock is able to teach how to be a rev to others...would be way cooler if only those that were able to travel to the mists and had some kind of connection to the legends there(like Rytlock with Glint) were able to channel their powers...also i really deslike the idea that Kalla is the new legend....nothing against her or anything, but i think would be way more badass to channel the powers of Gaheron Baelfire...the dude was the flame legion emperor and probably one of the most powerfull elementalist on the whole GW universe, he even claimed to have allmost achieved godhood...cant think off any chaar that gets close to him on legendary feets. Would be perfect for a condi burn based rev. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coulter.2315 Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 > @castlemanic.3198 said: > > @Coulter.2315 said: > > > @Sublimatio.6981 said: > > >we live in times where patriarchy still dominates our societies/cultures. > > > > Try and get a flight out of Saudi, it's fine in the West. > > It's not fine in the west, it's still an issue. Just because it's worse elsewhere doesn't mean it's non-existent where you are. Nonsense, we're on our second female Prime Minister. "Patriarchy" is "illuminati" for people with bad hair dye. If you're going to claim we live in a world where men are given unfair advantage by some shadowy force you need to provide evidence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dusanyu.4057 Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 > @Sublimatio.6981 said: > Males are statistically known to be more often aggressive and generally evil, and we live in times where patriarchy still dominates our societies/cultures. I don't think it's inaccurate that it's reflected in gods/semigods in our game. ANet is trying to stay realisitic in that regard I guess. > > Though I like female villains way more. Preferably, they win. Too bad this game has to be cliche for the mass ;_; you may want to look up some of the maticentered cultures that exist on earth they are just as corrupt and warlike as Paricentered ones, a examination of anthropology throws the popular narrative out of the window and takes a big dump on it so, lets not let boring old facts get in the way. The fact is Human beings are grunting apes no matter what gender they are and are prone to Kick each others buts as a result of that fact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
castlemanic.3198 Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 > @Coulter.2315 said: > Nonsense, we're on our second female Prime Minister. "Patriarchy" is "illuminati" for people with bad hair dye. > > If you're going to claim we live in a world where men are given unfair advantage by some shadowy force you need to provide evidence. This is not the forum (literally) for this discussion, as such I won't comment on it any further. > @draxynnic.3719 said: > One of Glint's memory crystals, in fact, indicated that she couldn't see beyond her own death. Her echo in the Mists might be different, but I suspect Glint's gift of prophecy is gone. That's what made me add that side note to begin with. I probably should have mentioned the memory crystal outright. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coulter.2315 Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 > @castlemanic.3198 said: > > @Coulter.2315 said: > > Nonsense, we're on our second female Prime Minister. "Patriarchy" is "illuminati" for people with bad hair dye. > > > > If you're going to claim we live in a world where men are given unfair advantage by some shadowy force you need to provide evidence. > > This is not the forum (literally) for this discussion, as such I won't comment on it any further. I'm not the one who brought up conspiracy theories, but happy to leave it there. I was defending the gender imbalance in the pantheon and saying it was down to the more unsual deities we have, mercy being the leader of a set of gods is unusual but also should be female. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carlin Sanders.3587 Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 Simple: Grenth is a ladies man. His mom was dwayna after all, lady all about caring and healing and whatnot. He's got that perfect mix of bad boy and sweetheart to charm Lyssa and Melandru, perhaps even Kormir. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
castlemanic.3198 Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 > @Coulter.2315 said: > > @castlemanic.3198 said: > > > @Coulter.2315 said: > > > Nonsense, we're on our second female Prime Minister. "Patriarchy" is "illuminati" for people with bad hair dye. > > > > > > If you're going to claim we live in a world where men are given unfair advantage by some shadowy force you need to provide evidence. > > > > This is not the forum (literally) for this discussion, as such I won't comment on it any further. > > I'm not the one who brought up conspiracy theories, but happy to leave it there. I was defending the gender imbalance in the pantheon and saying it was down to the more unsual deities we have, mercy being the leader of a set of gods is unusual but also should be female. > > It's not a conspiracy theory. I also defended the human gods and the gender imbalance, which is unique due to the prophecies design of having each god be a patron of a class, with elementalists having certain aspects belonging to different gods (water to grenth, fire to balthazar etc.) that then had more thematic gender tie ins. With the way that the devs have gone with it, it's not really an issue and I like how it's different to the male dominated pantheons of other mmos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brenda.9723 Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 This is not only happening with the gods. :p Good dragons: Aurene, Kuunavang and Glint (use female pronounce). Kuunavang and Glint are evil, until they are freed from their male corrupters. Bad dragons: use all male pronouns Good sylvari: all who follow the female pale tree Bad sylvari: all who followed the Cadeyrn (male) Good humans: everyone who follows the queen Bad humans: everyone who follows caudecus or the spirits created by king adelbern Btw: Lyssa/ Lyss/ Ilya is chaos, not good Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coulter.2315 Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 > @castlemanic.3198 said: > > @Coulter.2315 said: > > > @castlemanic.3198 said: > > > > @Coulter.2315 said: > > > > Nonsense, we're on our second female Prime Minister. "Patriarchy" is "illuminati" for people with bad hair dye. > > > > > > > > If you're going to claim we live in a world where men are given unfair advantage by some shadowy force you need to provide evidence. > > > > > > This is not the forum (literally) for this discussion, as such I won't comment on it any further. > > > > I'm not the one who brought up conspiracy theories, but happy to leave it there. I was defending the gender imbalance in the pantheon and saying it was down to the more unsual deities we have, mercy being the leader of a set of gods is unusual but also should be female. > > > > > > It's not a conspiracy theory. Definitely is, this magical "patriarchy" sets up society to benefit men yet fails to bring them better life expectancy, fails to enroll/graduate them from uni at a higher rate, fails to get them to work in safer environments, fails to protect them from the front lines of war, fails to give them custody of their child in court, fails to keep them from being homeless, fails to even mention their abuse domestically let alone provide shelter, fails to even fund their more likely cancer research at the same rate. Now I am not saying that women don't face hardships, I am just saying there is zero evidence to suggest our society is constructed to benefit one sex over the other. That makes it a conspiracy theory, the sooner you get out of that hole in reality the better you'll feel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
castlemanic.3198 Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 > @brenda.9723 said: > This is not only happening with the gods. :p > > Good dragons: Aurene, Kuunavang and Glint (use female pronounce). > Kuunavang and Glint are evil, until they are freed from their male corrupters. > Bad dragons: use all male pronouns > > Good sylvari: all who follow the female pale tree > Bad sylvari: all who followed the Cadeyrn (male) > > Good humans: everyone who follows the queen > Bad humans: everyone who follows caudecus or the spirits created by king adelbern > > Btw: Lyssa/ Lyss/ Ilya is chaos, not good On the topic of dragons: Vlast is male. He was good. On the topic of the sylvari: Faolain is female and is the grand duchess of the nightmare court (or was until she was turned into a vinetooth). The representation of the nightmare court after Faolain's demise is another female sylvari. Also, Scarlet, evil, female. Trahearne was Marshal of the pact, responsible for helping to kill Zhaitan and *key in slaying Mordremoth once and for all*, in a last minute situation that had (at the time) no other solution. On the topic of humans: Minister Wi is male and now leads the ministry, Confessor Eshel was a woman and previously lead the white mantle and Xera was a woman who seemingly lead the 'true believers' of the white mantle, Logan leads the Pact as Marshal. The spirits created by King Adelbern were magically tormented into seeing every living thing as charr and wouldn't have the knowledge or capability of seeing how the charr have agreed to a peace treaty with Kryta because of that magical torment, so that doesn't count. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
castlemanic.3198 Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 > @Coulter.2315 said: > Definitely is, this magical "patriarchy" sets up society to benefit men yet fails to bring them better life expectancy, fails to enroll/graduate them from uni at a higher rate, fails to get them to work in safer environments, fails to protect them from the front lines of war, fails to give them custody of their child in court, fails to keep them from being homeless, fails to even mention their abuse domestically let alone provide shelter, fails to even fund their more likely cancer research at the same rate. > > Now I am not saying that women don't face hardships, I am just saying there is zero evidence to suggest our society is constructed to benefit one sex over the other. That makes it a conspiracy theory, the sooner you get out of that hole in reality the better you'll feel. > The irony is **those issues are also the symptoms of patriarchy**. The very same issues that prevent women from having as many opportunities as men also force men into more dangerous situations and don't do much to take some of their issues more seriously. It's not a one sided issue, patriarchy negatively affects both genders, it negatively affects **everyone**, because it demands that each gender adheres to a strict set of rules and those who break free of them find themselves in hot water. So yes, patriarchy is objectively an issue, but it doesn't mean it solely harms women. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coulter.2315 Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 > @castlemanic.3198 said: > > @Coulter.2315 said: > > Definitely is, this magical "patriarchy" sets up society to benefit men yet fails to bring them better life expectancy, fails to enroll/graduate them from uni at a higher rate, fails to get them to work in safer environments, fails to protect them from the front lines of war, fails to give them custody of their child in court, fails to keep them from being homeless, fails to even mention their abuse domestically let alone provide shelter, fails to even fund their more likely cancer research at the same rate. > > > > Now I am not saying that women don't face hardships, I am just saying there is zero evidence to suggest our society is constructed to benefit one sex over the other. That makes it a conspiracy theory, the sooner you get out of that hole in reality the better you'll feel. > > > > The irony is **those issues are also the symptoms of patriarchy**. The very same issues that prevent women from having as many opportunities as men also force men into more dangerous situations and don't do much to take some of their issues more seriously. It's not a one sided issue, patriarchy negatively affects both genders, it negatively affects **everyone**, because it demands that each gender adheres to a strict set of rules and those who break free of them find themselves in hot water. So yes, patriarchy is objectively an issue, but it doesn't mean it solely harms women. See this is why it is a conspiracy theory, even when you say "it isn't even helping the people you claim it is designed for" the result is always "the patriarchy." Like the CIA are always behind every bit of evidence that disproves 911 truthers or flat earthers. When you're constantly going back to this invisible yet all powerful force that explains everything you're not far off a religion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
castlemanic.3198 Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 > @Coulter.2315 said: > See this is why it is a conspiracy theory, even when you say "it isn't even helping the people you claim it is designed for" the result is always "the patriarchy." Like the CIA are always behind every bit of evidence that disproves 911 truthers or flat earthers. When you're constantly going back to this invisible yet all powerful force that explains everything you're not far off a religion. It's funny because the facts work against you in this case and I'd argue your stance more resembles flat earthers and 911 truthers. We live in a society that has, historically, always favoured men. Just because there have been many drastic changes doesn't mean new issues havent cropped up and replaced the old ones. The system that says "all men are strong and intelligent" (which btw, gives them societal advantages simply because that's something that still permeates real life) leaves no room for men who suffer mental illnesses or whose who prefer the arts over sciences to be taken seriously, **even in the face of history where men have had the largest voices in the arts**. Today, you still come across issues where men are expected to follow certain paths and women are expected to stay at home, even with the large strides that we've taken to give everyone the freedom to choose where they work. The system that gives men more opportunities also holds them to higher standards, and when those standards aren't met, they're immediately thrown on the chopping block. For women, they weren't even allowed to have the opportunity to show their true talent until recently. Some women even get **death threats** for simply *existing* within an industry that's male dominated (for example, the gaming industry and the comic book industry), a thing that doesn't happen anywhere nearly as often for men. Women always have been asked to do much more than their male equivalent to be given the exact same recognition, while being given fewer opportunities to do so, sometimes even being rejected in the face of a male with lower qualifications. Studies have been done on hirings that show men are more likely to be given the same opportunity as women by a statistically significant margin **even when given the exact same qualification**, simply the name on the resume would alter the chances of getting the job. On the flip side of that argument, men are not given opportunities to bond with their children, where maternity leave is given to mother, nothing exists for the father in the vast majority of countries, *including the west*. Just because women exist in the same positions as men does not mean they are even treated the same as their coworkers. When it comes to issues of mental health, both sides get it hard, with women being told "it's just a phase" or something related to their menstrual cycle and men not even being considered, simply be told "man up" or some other obnoxious equivalent. These are facts of life like 1+1=2, this is simply the way it is and we can trace it back for millennia, bending over backwards to simply say "it's a conspiracy theory" in the face of **scientific evidence** is exactly the same behaviour that anti-vaxxers and climate change deniers exhibit. It's scientifically proven **fact** that there is a harsh treatment of both genders, even when the system builds itself up to support one gender over the other, because it expects 100% compliance to behavioural boxes, otherwise it punishes to an extreme. This is getting out of hand and your outright denial of facts is no longer something I'm willing to deal with. This will be my final post on the matter at hand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DorDor.8617 Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 Dudes, ladies, assorted nonbinary individuals... I'm all for a spirited debate on the finer points of feminist theory, but is this REALLY the best place for that sort of thing? We're not even talking about Guild Wars anymore, and this argument is just going around in circles. Even by the online forum standards, we're going nowhere at breakneck speed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dusanyu.4057 Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 > @castlemanic.3198 said: > > @Coulter.2315 said: > > Definitely is, this magical "patriarchy" sets up society to benefit men yet fails to bring them better life expectancy, fails to enroll/graduate them from uni at a higher rate, fails to get them to work in safer environments, fails to protect them from the front lines of war, fails to give them custody of their child in court, fails to keep them from being homeless, fails to even mention their abuse domestically let alone provide shelter, fails to even fund their more likely cancer research at the same rate. > > > > Now I am not saying that women don't face hardships, I am just saying there is zero evidence to suggest our society is constructed to benefit one sex over the other. That makes it a conspiracy theory, the sooner you get out of that hole in reality the better you'll feel. > > > > The irony is **those issues are also the symptoms of patriarchy**. The very same issues that prevent women from having as many opportunities as men also force men into more dangerous situations and don't do much to take some of their issues more seriously. It's not a one sided issue, patriarchy negatively affects both genders, it negatively affects **everyone**, because it demands that each gender adheres to a strict set of rules and those who break free of them find themselves in hot water. So yes, patriarchy is objectively an issue, but it doesn't mean it solely harms women. Do you even know what "patriarchy" means? Rule by fathers I don't know how the father being the head of the household something that built civilisation magicly turned into this evil thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redfeather.6401 Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 I'm pretty sure Lyssa is an enabler. :wink: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zenith.7301 Posted October 16, 2017 Share Posted October 16, 2017 > @castlemanic.3198 said: > > @Coulter.2315 said: > > Definitely is, this magical "patriarchy" sets up society to benefit men yet fails to bring them better life expectancy, fails to enroll/graduate them from uni at a higher rate, fails to get them to work in safer environments, fails to protect them from the front lines of war, fails to give them custody of their child in court, fails to keep them from being homeless, fails to even mention their abuse domestically let alone provide shelter, fails to even fund their more likely cancer research at the same rate. > > > > Now I am not saying that women don't face hardships, I am just saying there is zero evidence to suggest our society is constructed to benefit one sex over the other. That makes it a conspiracy theory, the sooner you get out of that hole in reality the better you'll feel. > > > > The irony is **those issues are also the symptoms of patriarchy**. The very same issues that prevent women from having as many opportunities as men also force men into more dangerous situations and don't do much to take some of their issues more seriously. It's not a one sided issue, patriarchy negatively affects both genders, it negatively affects **everyone**, because it demands that each gender adheres to a strict set of rules and those who break free of them find themselves in hot water. So yes, patriarchy is objectively an issue, but it doesn't mean it solely harms women. How does that argument even remotely apply to university enrollment rates or education where the vast majority of educators (especially at the high school level) are women, and in the sciences men only outnumber in physics and maths. Chemistry is trending female, biology is tremendously female as is psychology. Veterinary medicine slants heavily female and earns more than those mythical male programmers the media is crying over, and of the medical specialties there is an even split, with a majority of women making up the new entries to medical school. So please explain to me how in institutions where women occupy the chairs and positions of powers in committees, suddenly it's male's fault that representation has dipped. Maybe, just maybe, the "good ol' boy's club" thing can also happen to manifest when the positions of power are switched. Belonging to the other gender doesn't suddenly remove tribalism. Especially when everyone involved develops a grievance complex that makes them seek that the other gender is punished in admissions to compensate for past wrongs or whatever crappy experiences they've had with someone of the opposite gender. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rognik.2579 Posted October 16, 2017 Share Posted October 16, 2017 Gaheron is far too recent a character to channel for revenant. I mean, for some players, they might not have even run Citadel of Flame and thus even know that he's died. Meanwhile, Kalla has been dead for years and everyone has had plenty of chances to learn that her significance to history. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leviticus Lo.6178 Posted October 16, 2017 Share Posted October 16, 2017 > @Fenom.9457 said: > You're looking too much into it. But I'd like to be grenth, only guy with 4 women >:) > And people have killed them selves over dwayna You realize Dwayna is literally Grenth's mother, right? **:**P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weindrasi.3805 Posted October 16, 2017 Share Posted October 16, 2017 > @Rognik.2579 said: > > @Weindrasi.3805 said: > > The Flame Legion oppressed all women because a woman spoke out against them... > Actually, at least according to the articles released before the game launched, the Flame Legion had been oppressing women before the time of the Searing. Kalla was just the main female to organize other female warriors (read: combatants) to fight back against the Flame Legion and reintegrate them into the warband hierarchy. Before Kalla's rebellion, the female charr were presumably kept far away from the front lines, breeding, cooking and all that jazz. You misunderstand what I am referencing. I am referencing lore WAAAAY before Kalla. The first record we have, lore-wise, of Charr sexism is when the flame legion oppressed all women because Balthea Havocbringer spoke out against them. Before Balthea Havocbringer and the Flame Legion's first bid for power, we have nothing. And I'm asserting that the Flame Legion would not have responded to Balthea as they did, unless the Flame Legion--or charr society at large--already had some degree of sexism against women. Though, considering Balthea was a Blood Legion warrior, that sexism probably wasn't as bad until Flame took control. Kalla didn't come around until hundreds or thousands of years later, after Flame rule and female enslavement was very deeply ingrained. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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