Some Reasonable Balance Changes to Address Scourge and Spellbreaker

[Zuko.7132]

**Spellbreaker**

The main problem with spellbreaker right now imo is that it does too much too often. These changes will reduce some of full counters impact, increase the importance of landing it to benefit from it, and reduce the frequency at which it can be used.

 

1. Guard Counter: Only apply protection if you land full counter.

2. Increase base cooldown on full counter from 8 seconds to 10. (Exact amount up for debate)

3. Revenge counter: Take away additional damage on full counter.

4. Change daze duration on full counter from 1/2 second to 1/4.

 

**Scourge**

The main problem with scourge right now imo is the inability to reactively play against it. All shade skills apart from Manifest Sand Shade are instant cast instant effect. I think this is okay for the effects that affect the scourge and his allies but not for some of the effects that affect enemies. The changes I suggest here give players the ability to reactively avoid some of the effects of shade skills namely the strike that results from using a shade skill and the boon corrupt from nefarious favor when traited. All the base effect from the shade skills f2 to f5 would remain instant including the fear, condi clear, and barrier so they can be used as instant defensive skills.

 

1. Manifest Sand Shade: Currently this skill has a 1/2 second cast time which allows players to dodge it. This is good. The problem is that whenever any other shade skill is cast the shades and the scourge instantly hit other players with the same affect as manifest sand shade. I suggest having the 1/2 second delay that exists between the summoning of sand shades and effects also apply for the casting of other shade skills and the strike that shades and the scourge cast. Note, I am not saying to not make the f2 to f5 instant cast. Keep them instant cast but have the strike that results from them have a 1/2 second delay.

2. Nefarious Favor: Currently this can be traited to corrupt two boons instantly. Because of this there is no reactive counterplay to it. I suggest keeping the skill instant cast and the condi clear for the scourge and allies instant, but adding a 1/2 second delay between the cast and the boon strip with an animation that allows players to reactively dodge, block, invuln, or otherwise avoid the corrupt. So the boon strip would land at the same time the shades and scourge strike the player from the change in suggestion 1.

[Sykper.6583]

Just throwing it out there, for Spellbreaker Guard Counter does require a hit to activate the protection anyways. Unless I mistook the tooltip and practical application.

 

Aside from that the rest of those changes I'm ok with.

[Zuko.7132]

> @Sykper.6583 said:

> Just throwing it out there, for Spellbreaker Guard Counter does require a hit to activate the protection anyways. Unless I mistook the tooltip and practical application.

>

> Aside from that the rest of those changes I'm ok with.

 

Oh I haven't tested it. I read successful full counter to mean u just have to trigger it. Ill test and get back to you.

[Aomine.5012]

Just give Spellbreaker Druid treatment and it's balanced.

 

Full Counter: CD increased to 12 seconds (PVP/ WVW only)

Also make it unaffected by burst skill cd reduction trait.

 

As for Scourge, many things need to be nerfed.

For one, all F1~F4 need a 1 second cast time in PVP / WvW only.

[BeLZedaR.4790]

Make full counter not unblockable aswell would give it more counterplay

[Zuko.7132]

> @BeLZedaR.4790 said:

> Make full counter not unblockable aswell would give it more counterplay

 

that would be a possible change but if that happened i would revoke some of my suggested nerfs cause thats a pretty big hit. Actually a tremendous nerf.

[Caedmon.6798]

You can;'t take away the dmg from counter because the dagger burst is crazy low damage ( Same for all weaps since it counts as LEVEL 1 burst) even when you full zerk and have 25 might it does around 4 - 6k tops.

 

@BeLZedaR.4790 The point of counter IS to have unblock and extra effects that can Counter certain classes.Hence it's name.Strip away these effects and it loses all meaning.

[Master Ketsu.4569]

> @BeLZedaR.4790 said:

> Make full counter not unblockable aswell would give it more counterplay

 

This is a silly change since all it really affects is aegis.

 

Unblockable is actually a good thing since it will generally only matter against skills that let people attack and defend at the same time- an aspect of GW2 pvp that already needs serious toning down.

[Exciton.8942]

My suggestion

 

Spellbreaker:

 

No more resistance on revenge counter trait. Could use some minor nerf on Featherfoot Grace as well.

 

The goal is that spellbreaker no longer ignores conditions other than scourge level of corruption. So they need to take anti-condi more into consideration. Currrently they can invest so much into anti-power and personal damage because they are completely immune to condi.

 

Scourge:

 

F2 CD increase to 8 sec (PvP only)

 

Same player only got strike once by F skills even if he is within range of both shade and scourge himself.

 

To compensate, scourge should gain a bit more barrier on F3 and F5.

[Lighter.5631]

Problem with spellbreaker is not with damage nor CC, CC and damage are completely fine

it's because it lives too long, it can 1v2 for a long time(to chain FC within dodges, evades and blocks and endure pain)

on white node or owned node and wait to friends to +1

 

simply put if you just change CD to 12 and not touch anything else, SB would be C/B tier imo,

[BikeIsGone.8675]

Tbh im thinking the main issues with SB run way deeper than just the elite. Warror itself (the entire class in general) has way too much sustain. They are the ONLY class, where it is completely acceptable to run a fully offensive amulet on (like zerker, or viper/destroyer back in season 4/5). The damage on their skills is fine considering every class does this much dmg when running a offensive 4 stat amulet. If they d be forced to run another amulet (like every other class is), their dmg would be fine I think.

 

Anyway I think that FC (even when not running zerker) does too much dmg. Its supposed to be a utility/defensive tool and as it is right now its a massive aoe nuke as well.....this needs to be adressed. Maybe make it not able to crit or just decrease the base dmg all together. A 3-4k crit/hit max should be perfectly fine with such a skill imo.

[ukuni.8745]

> @BeLZedaR.4790 said:

> Make full counter not unblockable aswell would give it more counterplay

 

as an engi main i would like this, majority of my sustain comes from my blocking o you wanna block lemme just run over a random mine or some other random shit you left on the ground and GG

[Sykper.6583]

> @Lighter.5631 said:

> Problem with spellbreaker is not with damage nor CC, CC and damage are completely fine

> it's because it lives too long, it can 1v2 for a long time(to chain FC within dodges, evades and blocks and endure pain)

> on white node or owned node and wait to friends to +1

>

> simply put if you just change CD to 12 and not touch anything else, SB would be C/B tier imo,

 

I think it should stay relatively meta though at 10 seconds. I agree that 8 seconds given Discipline will reduce that further, but Spellbreaker isn't that far off from balance honestly, it gives up consistently condi clear to mitigate with resist, and it's very melee orientated.

[Aomine.5012]

> @Lighter.5631 said:

> Problem with spellbreaker is not with damage nor CC, CC and damage are completely fine

> it's because it lives too long, it can 1v2 for a long time(to chain FC within dodges, evades and blocks and endure pain)

> on white node or owned node and wait to friends to +1

>

> simply put if you just change CD to 12 and not touch anything else, SB would be C/B tier imo,

 

Well, Druid's staff 3 and celestial got almost doubled the cd treatment.

Now they're subpar and I haven't see any good one in like 30 matches.

[Lighter.5631]

> @Aomine.5012 said:

> > @Lighter.5631 said:

> > Problem with spellbreaker is not with damage nor CC, CC and damage are completely fine

> > it's because it lives too long, it can 1v2 for a long time(to chain FC within dodges, evades and blocks and endure pain)

> > on white node or owned node and wait to friends to +1

> >

> > simply put if you just change CD to 12 and not touch anything else, SB would be C/B tier imo,

>

> Well, Druid's staff 3 and celestial got almost doubled the cd treatment.

> Now they're subpar and I haven't see any good one in like 30 matches.

 

and so? you can't justify one's nerf to another.

berserker lost heavily on healing/damage/condition cleanse through burst skills because burst traits nerf, you see WAY more druid then berserker that's for sure.

"i'll follow you if they give druid the berserker treatment."

 

not to mention PoF just came out, ofc people will play the new specs instead of the old, doesn't mean the old ones are bad

[Zuko.7132]

Thanks for the thoughts on spellbreaker guys, but what do you think about the scourge nerfs? I think a major part of the problem with scourge is it is very difficult to play against them because it's impossible to reactively avoid a lot of their damage. Do you think giving players the ability to react is a good change?

[choovanski.5462]

> @BikeIsGone.8675 said:

> Tbh im thinking the main issues with SB run way deeper than just the elite. Warror itself (the entire class in general) has way too much sustain. They are the ONLY class, where it is completely acceptable to run a fully offensive amulet on (like zerker, or viper/destroyer back in season 4/5). The damage on their skills is fine considering every class does this much dmg when running a offensive 4 stat amulet. If they d be forced to run another amulet (like every other class is), their dmg would be fine I think.

 

dude, you know thats only because warrior has high base health right? because if they had the same base hp as guardian they would run marauders too, & vice versa. all of the other classes would be able to drop vitality on amulets if they had high base hp. it’s not because warrior has extra sustain at base, so many other classes (guardian engi etc) have high sustain without healing power too, they just lack high base hp.

 

@OP how about a nerf to 200 range, & having the counter attack being single target? i’ve never been keen on getting punished be something of my foolish teamate

[Sykper.6583]

> @Zuko.7132 said:

> Thanks for the thoughts on spellbreaker guys, but what do you think about the scourge nerfs? I think a major part of the problem with scourge is it is very difficult to play against them because it's impossible to reactively avoid a lot of their damage. Do you think giving players the ability to react is a good change?

 

My apologies for the initial assessement, as a Warrior main I gave feedback on SB since I wanted to prevent a butchering of the profession.

 

With concern to Scourge I've only had experience playing it in PvE, of which there is no difference (that I know of right now) compared to the PvP aspect.

 

Therefore, if you find something incorrect please let me know. Scourge has an excessive kit when their shades are down. While playing Scourge I notice that I can easily become lifeforce deprived easily if I just spam skills, but under a controlled methodical environment I can sustain my lifeforce and continue to pressure whatever location I lay my shades down. From a PvE aspect, my 'F' abilities are instant on any shades which benefits me, but for counterplay in PvP it's almost impossible to predict without active knowledge of cooldowns whether the Scourge is going to corrupt, condi, or fear you within its shades.

 

This doesn't account for the fact Shades do strike within a melee range OUTSIDE their white lines.

 

I think there needs to be major animation tells, like a color flashing for the opponent in order to convey what the scourge is doing to all his shades. The 'F' skills carry so much power that anyone fighting in them innately has to assume that they will get hit by the most damaging effect to their role at some point, however something as siple as a colored tell for each skill will allow a meta-level counterplay for various professions to address what might counter them.

 

For instance, F2 will convert 2 conditions to boons on allies and the Scourge themselves and go on CD after. If a Condition-based build were to face them, knowing that F2 applies a brief 'green color' to all shades that fades would assist in counterplay. Condibomb after the green and suddenly the Scourge has to use something else to deal with it.

 

These are some general thoughts.

[Zuko.7132]

> @choovanski.5462 said:

> > @BikeIsGone.8675 said:

> > Tbh im thinking the main issues with SB run way deeper than just the elite. Warror itself (the entire class in general) has way too much sustain. They are the ONLY class, where it is completely acceptable to run a fully offensive amulet on (like zerker, or viper/destroyer back in season 4/5). The damage on their skills is fine considering every class does this much dmg when running a offensive 4 stat amulet. If they d be forced to run another amulet (like every other class is), their dmg would be fine I think.

>

> dude, you know thats only because warrior has high base health right? because if they had the same base hp as guardian they would run marauders too, & vice versa. all of the other classes would be able to drop vitality on amulets if they had high base hp. it’s not because warrior has extra sustain at base, so many other classes (guardian engi etc) have high sustain without healing power too, they just lack high base hp.

>

> @OP how about a nerf to 200 range, & having the counter attack being single target? i’ve never been keen on getting punished be something of my foolish teamate

 

I agree spellbreaker needs to be toned down, but thats going too far. That's over an 80% nerf in perfect conditions.

[Lighter.5631]

HoT spec like chrono can also 1v1 spellbreaker on point (chrono can also outrotate SB with portal)

i suspect that scrapper can do the same.

mender druid can also keep the point.

 

also when scourge gets nerfed, holosmith will come up to be the next op spec, right now scourge melts holo.

[Bish.8627]

My Suggestion

 

Stop asking for nerfs and instead ask how other classes can be tweaked to be more useful.

[choovanski.5462]

> @Zuko.7132 said:

> > @choovanski.5462 said:

> > > @BikeIsGone.8675 said:

> > > Tbh im thinking the main issues with SB run way deeper than just the elite. Warror itself (the entire class in general) has way too much sustain. They are the ONLY class, where it is completely acceptable to run a fully offensive amulet on (like zerker, or viper/destroyer back in season 4/5). The damage on their skills is fine considering every class does this much dmg when running a offensive 4 stat amulet. If they d be forced to run another amulet (like every other class is), their dmg would be fine I think.

> >

> > dude, you know thats only because warrior has high base health right? because if they had the same base hp as guardian they would run marauders too, & vice versa. all of the other classes would be able to drop vitality on amulets if they had high base hp. it’s not because warrior has extra sustain at base, so many other classes (guardian engi etc) have high sustain without healing power too, they just lack high base hp.

> >

> > @OP how about a nerf to 200 range, & having the counter attack being single target? i’ve never been keen on getting punished be something of my foolish teamate

>

> I agree spellbreaker needs to be toned down, but thats going too far. That's over an 80% nerf in perfect conditions.

 

it nerfs the class in teamfights, but lets it still be good 1v1 while allowing for more counterplay. seems pretty good imo.

 

all the defence stays, the offensive power just drops off for teamfights.

[Zuko.7132]

> @choovanski.5462 said:

> > @Zuko.7132 said:

> > > @choovanski.5462 said:

> > > > @BikeIsGone.8675 said:

> > > > Tbh im thinking the main issues with SB run way deeper than just the elite. Warror itself (the entire class in general) has way too much sustain. They are the ONLY class, where it is completely acceptable to run a fully offensive amulet on (like zerker, or viper/destroyer back in season 4/5). The damage on their skills is fine considering every class does this much dmg when running a offensive 4 stat amulet. If they d be forced to run another amulet (like every other class is), their dmg would be fine I think.

> > >

> > > dude, you know thats only because warrior has high base health right? because if they had the same base hp as guardian they would run marauders too, & vice versa. all of the other classes would be able to drop vitality on amulets if they had high base hp. it’s not because warrior has extra sustain at base, so many other classes (guardian engi etc) have high sustain without healing power too, they just lack high base hp.

> > >

> > > @OP how about a nerf to 200 range, & having the counter attack being single target? i’ve never been keen on getting punished be something of my foolish teamate

> >

> > I agree spellbreaker needs to be toned down, but thats going too far. That's over an 80% nerf in perfect conditions.

>

> it nerfs the class in teamfights, but lets it still be good 1v1 while allowing for more counterplay. seems pretty good imo.

>

> all the defence stays, the offensive power just drops off for teamfights.

 

the game isn't about 1v1 though and the vast majority of situations are not 1v1 or if they are don't stay that way. also that's not counterplay that's taking it out of play in a teamfight.

[Zuko.7132]

> @Bish.8627 said:

> My Suggestion

>

> Stop asking for nerfs and instead ask how other classes can be tweaked to be more useful.

 

So more powercreep?

[Zuko.7132]

> @Sykper.6583 said:

> > @Zuko.7132 said:

> > Thanks for the thoughts on spellbreaker guys, but what do you think about the scourge nerfs? I think a major part of the problem with scourge is it is very difficult to play against them because it's impossible to reactively avoid a lot of their damage. Do you think giving players the ability to react is a good change?

>

> My apologies for the initial assessement, as a Warrior main I gave feedback on SB since I wanted to prevent a butchering of the profession.

>

> With concern to Scourge I've only had experience playing it in PvE, of which there is no difference (that I know of right now) compared to the PvP aspect.

>

> Therefore, if you find something incorrect please let me know. Scourge has an excessive kit when their shades are down. While playing Scourge I notice that I can easily become lifeforce deprived easily if I just spam skills, but under a controlled methodical environment I can sustain my lifeforce and continue to pressure whatever location I lay my shades down. From a PvE aspect, my 'F' abilities are instant on any shades which benefits me, but for counterplay in PvP it's almost impossible to predict without active knowledge of cooldowns whether the Scourge is going to corrupt, condi, or fear you within its shades.

>

> This doesn't account for the fact Shades do strike within a melee range OUTSIDE their white lines.

>

> I think there needs to be major animation tells, like a color flashing for the opponent in order to convey what the scourge is doing to all his shades. The 'F' skills carry so much power that anyone fighting in them innately has to assume that they will get hit by the most damaging effect to their role at some point, however something as siple as a colored tell for each skill will allow a meta-level counterplay for various professions to address what might counter them.

>

> For instance, F2 will convert 2 conditions to boons on allies and the Scourge themselves and go on CD after. If a Condition-based build were to face them, knowing that F2 applies a brief 'green color' to all shades that fades would assist in counterplay. Condibomb after the green and suddenly the Scourge has to use something else to deal with it.

>

> These are some general thoughts.

 

I agree that the animations need to be more distinguishable, and i also think you should be able to see an animation and react to avoid it especially with such impactful skills.