Core vs Elite balancing - buff core or nerf elite?

[JTGuevara.9018]

Nerf elites. At the very LEAST for pvp modes. I'm sorry, but this whole business with overpowered elite specs in pvp where you can get 1-2 shot and instadowned is absolute nonsense.

[Ototo.3214]

I hardly play core and am not an expert on balancing or anything. But, I feel that they should really focus on bringing core up to par. Sure, buffing core traits could buff the elite specs in ways since they also have to take 2 core trait lines, but I feel it could be possible to make it feel like dropping a 3rd core line is a real trade off for taking the espec.

Just my 2 cents.

[spectrito.8513]

Nerf elites, nerf core nerf power, nerf healing, nerf boon spam, nerf everything!

Make skill matter again !

[Genesis.7864]

Elites were an incentive for me to buy the expansions. Heh.. That worked out well for me

 

(btw: bring core builds up slightly but not at par with Elites. Otherwise what is the point of them being "Elite"?)

Oh and core Mesmer is stronger than BOTH elites (Chrono + Mirage) in most aspects. Obviously not as good for support for raids or T4s like Chrono. And not as good as Mirage is in WvW and PvP.

General PvE though as well as dungeons and overall ease of access and sustainable dps: Core Mesmer wins.

[Firebeard.1746]

To all the kittens who want elites nerfed: does that mean you want HoT and PoF content unplayable? I haven't seen any of you discuss the content balancing tied to these specializations.

 

I wish I could add more options. Maybe you can and it's not showing up on my phone ui.

 

They would be:

 

3) Elite power creep is non issue, leave as is

4) Achieve balance through a core elite specialization.

 

 

[Rauderi.8706]

Buffs to core mean buffs to the Elites that ride on top of them.

 

I may not agree with all the "tradeoffs" that have hit some of the classes, but the idea of tradeoffs and sacrifice-gain in play styles is a good one.

[Airdive.2613]

> @"Firebeard.1746" said:

> To all the kittens who want elites nerfed: does that mean you want HoT and PoF content unplayable? I haven't seen any of you discuss the content balancing tied to these specializations.

 

Don't act offended with people voting of their own free will in your own thread.

Personally, I think HoT and PoF content will stay just as playable, especially with both mastery sets fully unlocked. If not - well, all the more reason to play in a party which isn't necessarily a bad thing either.

[Firebeard.1746]

> @"Airdive.2613" said:

> > @"Firebeard.1746" said:

> > To all the kittens who want elites nerfed: does that mean you want HoT and PoF content unplayable? I haven't seen any of you discuss the content balancing tied to these specializations.

>

> Don't act offended with people voting of their own free will in your own thread.

> Personally, I think HoT and PoF content will stay just as playable, especially with both mastery sets fully unlocked. If not - well, all the more reason to play in a party which isn't necessarily a bad thing either.

 

I'm not offended. I'm pointing out that there were considerations made when these specializations were designed that i believe they're ignoring. And the comment is mostly aimed at people who responded in the thread saying they want them nerfed.

 

Both zones already require plenty of partying. It's just going to make them that much harder and raise the bar for getting basic activities in those zones done. Not everyone has mastery sets unlocked. I definitely don't.

 

Your response essentially translates to making life harder for new or returning players

[Firebeard.1746]

> @"Rauderi.8706" said:

> Buffs to core mean buffs to the Elites that ride on top of them.

>

> I may not agree with all the "tradeoffs" that have hit some of the classes, but the idea of tradeoffs and sacrifice-gain in play styles is a good one.

 

Not necessarily. They could add extra mechanics to core abilities when you don't have an elite specialization set just like they change shatter functionality when you're a chronomancer. It's just an inversion. And it gives the trade off you're looking for.

[Dahkeus.8243]

A little buff/nerf to each is probably idea, but it's really hard to judge on a case by case basis. I mean, in some cases, elites are so strong, you almost never want to run core if you can avoid it, such as Ele. In other cases, core builds are even stronger than elite builds, such as S/D thief in sPvP. I mean, even some elite specs have been nerfed so hard that they're behind under-performing core specs, such as Druid in sPvP.

[Asum.4960]

I'm more in favour of reworking core and adjusting Elite Specs down to a bit above core lines.

 

As far as I remember, ArenaNet never stated Elite Specs should be sidegrades to core, but instead with each other. They were always meant to be slight upgrades, hence "Elite".

 

A lot of them have gone a bit too far in being upgrades though, all the while some professions have incredibly lacklustre core lines, relying almost entirely on their Elite Specs to carry them in compensation, which often produces quite unhealthy mechanics and dynamics for the game.

 

But in general, I'm just tired of boring Traits which are just modifiers, and in general selecting Traitlines being a case of which Traitline has the most damage modifiers (for PvE), rather than interesting mechanical choices that change the way the profession is played.

Considering the damage levels are too high anyway, I gladly see a lot of these modifiers reworked into interesting Traits that aren't autopicks, but an actual choice.

 

Something like Deathly Chill is always more interesting than something like Bloody Roar.

If something needs to do more damage to compete, just buff the baseline damage and instead make an interesting Trait.

 

Some modifiers are fine, especially if juxtaposed with strong defensive or supporting picks for different playstyles, but picking Traitlines shouldn't be a game of catch the most modifiers, while picking up some inconsequential stuff along the way.

[dodgerrule.8739]

The devs have been making the specs more defined and have a definite mechanic difference between elite specs and non elite ones.

 

If an elite spec was meant to be a healer it shouldn’t be able to deal great damage with it.

 

The elite specs have to have limitations so they’re not all meta.

[Lexi.1398]

Increasing power of core specs only encourages power creep- in general, i much prefer table-wide nerfs.

[Shade.8971]

Buff core first then nerf elite if neccasary. Buffing core also buffs elite.

[Firebeard.1746]

> @"Shade.8971" said:

> Buff core first then nerf elite if neccasary. Buffing core also buffs elite.

 

Doesn't have to. They can make abilities behave different based on whether or not an elite is equipped. Like Chrono vs. Mesmer shatter. Add functionality to base abilities that already exist and remove it if an elite is equipped.

[Firebeard.1746]

> @"Lexi.1398" said:

> Increasing power of core specs only encourages power creep- in general, i much prefer table-wide nerfs.

 

After raiding for the first time last night i can only seriously believe anyone who feels this way is talking about pvp. It felt like we needed every inch that everyone could give. See above response. Buffing core does not mean buffing elite. There are ways around it. And pvp balance should be handled separately from pve balance.

[Genesis.7864]

> @"Shade.8971" said:

> Buff core first then nerf elite if neccasary. Buffing core also buffs elite.

 

Not unless it's a core-only mechanic

[Lexi.1398]

> @"Firebeard.1746" said:

> After raiding for the first time last night i can only seriously believe anyone who feels this way is talking about pvp. It felt like we needed every inch that everyone could give. See above response. Buffing core does not mean buffing elite. There are ways around it.

 

I don't touch PvP at all, but i have raided (and ALL of them were training raids- actually only most of them, though i've never been in those PUGs that ask for kp :p).... and honestly, at least the people i run with, we rarely had trouble making dps marks on encounters. It wasn't easy, and it's not like we did them in the quickest possible time - but we *rarely* reached the enraged timer, even if that was only by 10 seconds or so that we made it. And all this after ele and DE were taken back to reasonable benchmarks ~~though i have opinions about ele, not that i want to see it reaching 42k or whatever ever again, this aint the thread for it~~ so that's with all the dps' having their SC benchmark around 30-35k.

 

If it was your first time raiding i assume it was in a training group of similarly new peeps. regaurdless of how much a person knows their rotation it would have been hard to pull big numbers simply because new peeps will always find it hard to keep up a rotation, and sometimes damage at all, in unfamiliar mechanics. With time and experience encounters get easier - you learn mechanics, their tells, ways to deal with mechanics easier, and get downed a lot less as you learn efficient ways to do things (e.g. i don't dodge backwards in cairn unless i have to because it puts you in knockback range, shards range, and more likely to get agony....dodging backwards was my primary cause of being downed when i only had a few cairn attempts under my belt) and what to prioritise avoiding and just taking damage from, safer areas to move to, how safe & for how long you can perform rotation uninterrupted etc etc.

Tl;dr as you do an encounter more and get more familiar with it, that alone makes it easier to perform more and more dps each time you do it. Training groups almost always need to put everything into meeting the enrage timer, while experienced groups shouldn't really have to think about them at all.

[Firebeard.1746]

> @"Lexi.1398" said:

> > @"Firebeard.1746" said:

> > After raiding for the first time last night i can only seriously believe anyone who feels this way is talking about pvp. It felt like we needed every inch that everyone could give. See above response. Buffing core does not mean buffing elite. There are ways around it.

>

> I don't touch PvP at all, but i have raided (and ALL of them were training raids- actually only most of them, though i've never been in those PUGs that ask for kp :p).... and honestly, at least the people i run with, we rarely had trouble making dps marks on encounters. It wasn't easy, and it's not like we did them in the quickest possible time - but we *rarely* reached the enraged timer, even if that was only by 10 seconds or so that we made it. And all this after ele and DE were taken back to reasonable benchmarks ~~though i have opinions about ele, not that i want to see it reaching 42k or whatever ever again, this aint the thread for it~~ so that's with all the dps' having their SC benchmark around 30-35k.

>

> If it was your first time raiding i assume it was in a training group of similarly new peeps. regaurdless of how much a person knows their rotation it would have been hard to pull big numbers simply because new peeps will always find it hard to keep up a rotation, and sometimes damage at all, in unfamiliar mechanics. With time and experience encounters get easier - you learn mechanics, their tells, ways to deal with mechanics easier, and get downed a lot less as you learn efficient ways to do things (e.g. i don't dodge backwards in cairn unless i have to because it puts you in knockback range, shards range, and more likely to get agony....dodging backwards was my primary cause of being downed when i only had a few cairn attempts under my belt) and what to prioritise avoiding and just taking damage from, safer areas to move to, how safe & for how long you can perform rotation uninterrupted etc etc.

> Tl;dr as you do an encounter more and get more familiar with it, that alone makes it easier to perform more and more dps each time you do it. Training groups almost always need to put everything into meeting the enrage timer, while experienced groups shouldn't really have to think about them at all.

 

You're right a 10 second cushion for experienced players is plenty to work with in terms of nerfing. And while we're at it, let's make the game harder for new people, right? I could tell based on how bad our last raid boss went that there isn't a lot of room for error in these raids and what you're saying only convinced me further that raids are balanced around the top output of our current specializations and i doubt the balance team is involved in raids and having experienced stat squishes in other games i have little confidence that anet will rebalance things appropriately.

[Ganathar.4956]

> @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > @"TrollingDemigod.3041" said:

> > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > I think the entire debate about core and elite specs makes no sense and core should be clearly inferior, but I shall explain why:

> > >

> > > First off, core specs as is right now are completely integrated into every elite spec with only some minor alterations here and there. To change this, core builds would need to be built similar to an elite spec with very own traits and mechanics. This would be potentially even more effort than a new elite spec since core traits, skills, etc would need to be redesigned as to not work the same way in elite specs.

> > >

> > > If the effort is just as much as designing a new elite spec, then I'd rather arenanet work on additional elite specs. It would be way easier to balance around 3 elite specs (without major concern to core classes) over balanceing around core classes and 2 elite specs (for referance, currently they are balancing mostly around the elite specs only).

> > >

> > > I just don't see the benefit in making core classes viable. The only reason for this would be if people enjoy the core abilities over every single elite spec available to their class. In which case its more an issue of designing an elite spec which caters or is somewhat similar to the core class (which most classes have). Even then I would personally racther have 3 elite specs than core builds +2elites.

> > >

> > > As to power creep, yeah that ship sailed looooong ago. I don't deal with notions of grandeur or immagination. The power creep will never get toned back, and to some extent it shouldn't since all content since HoT was designed with higher than vanilla power levels in mind. I do agree though that elite specs should be toned down a bit as well as balanced against each other.

> >

> > If I'm not mistaken years ago A-net themselves said that E-Spec would offer different playstyle(not a straight-up upgrade to core) without making it mandatory but currently it's meta e-spec or shoo away. There's no need to "built similar to an elite spec", because they're just nothing more than a traitlines and skills like everything else. I don't understand your point of view at all, it seems like you consider E-spec like something totally different, but they're nothing more than a trait lines and access to new skills, do not forget that.

>

> **Yes, the entire core class is available to every elite spec. That is the fundamental difference to elite specs which can, as a result of being exclusive to each other, get balanced way easier.** Now in order for both core AND elite spec to be equal in power, the elite spec needs to be essentially a full sidegrade to the core class while ALSO offering an additional traitline and new skills. I doubt that is even remotely possible to be achieved and you would too doubt this to be possible if you gave it some deeper thought.

>

> It's a very simple mathematical equation. Core builds are X, elite specs are Y. X is part of Y thus Y is X+N, but you want X and Y to be equal. This would be only doable with severe drawbacks in elite specs (as to compensate for having access to the full core class) which in turn means they would need severe penalties. Not only is this not fun, it would be very hard to balance. As I had mentioned earlier.

 

The balancing issue gets even worse than this when you think about it even more. Let's use elementalist for example. For core elementalist to do similar DPS to weaver in raids, the package that weaver gives needs to compete with the worst of the 3 trait lines that core DPS eles use. A typical core DPS ele would use fire/air/arcane, while a DPS weaver uses fire/air/weaver. For these builds to have similar DPS weaver would only be allowed to be as good as arcane for DPS builds, which means that fire and air would have to be clearly more powerful trait lines than weaver in terms of DPS. This is the problem that arises from elite specs being able to take everything you could want from core. You can always use an elite spec to replace the least desirable trait line within your build, so of course the build with the elite spec will end up stronger even if they made sure that the elite spec itself is not the strongest trait line of the profession. Basically, balancing them with core is impossible, especially when you consider that DPS is not the only thing that you need to balance for.

 

 

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> **Yes, the entire core class is available to every elite spec. That is the fundamental difference to elite specs which can, as a result of being exclusive to each other, get balanced way easier.** Now in order for both core AND elite spec to be equal in power, the elite spec needs to be essentially a full sidegrade to the core class while ALSO offering an additional traitline and new skills. I doubt that is even remotely possible to be achieved and you would too doubt this to be possible if you gave it some deeper thought.

Of course it is possible. I know it, because it has already happened once - Druid was such a sidegrade. It offered something core Ranger did not have, but didn't really buff any of the core ranger roles. There's a reason why up until SB we had a core condi ranger build - druid was strictly worse in that role.

 

And that's how all elite specs should have worked - by offering new options, without buffing those that are already present. Unfortunately, Anet didn't go that way in many cases. Some (most) of the elite specs were designed not to be sidegrades, but straight up upgrades - and that caused some of the problems we now have.

 

> @"Ganathar.4956" said:

> The balancing issue gets even worse than this when you think about it even more. Let's use elementalist for example. For core elementalist to do similar DPS to weaver in raids, the package that weaver gives needs to compete with the worst of the 3 trait lines that core DPS eles use. A typical core DPS ele would use fire/air/arcane, while a DPS weaver uses fire/air/weaver. For these builds to have similar DPS weaver would only be allowed to be as good as arcane for DPS builds, which means that fire and air would have to be clearly more powerful trait lines than weaver in terms of DPS. This is the problem that arises from elite specs being able to take everything you could want from core.

No, this is the problem that arises when the focus you give to new elite spec is something that core was doing well. Ele was primarily a dps class. Making a dps-focused elite spec for it was not a good idea.

 

 

 

 

[Ganathar.4956]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > **Yes, the entire core class is available to every elite spec. That is the fundamental difference to elite specs which can, as a result of being exclusive to each other, get balanced way easier.** Now in order for both core AND elite spec to be equal in power, the elite spec needs to be essentially a full sidegrade to the core class while ALSO offering an additional traitline and new skills. I doubt that is even remotely possible to be achieved and you would too doubt this to be possible if you gave it some deeper thought.

> Of course it is possible. I know it, because it has already happened once - Druid was such a sidegrade. It offered something core Ranger did not have, but didn't really buff any of the core ranger roles. There's a reason why up until SB we had a core condi ranger build - druid was strictly worse in that role.

>

> And that's how all elite specs should have worked - by offering new options, without buffing those that are already present. Unfortunately, Anet didn't go that way in many cases. Some (most) of the elite specs were designed not to be sidegrades, but straight up upgrades - and that caused some of the problems we now have.

>

> > @"Ganathar.4956" said:

> > The balancing issue gets even worse than this when you think about it even more. Let's use elementalist for example. For core elementalist to do similar DPS to weaver in raids, the package that weaver gives needs to compete with the worst of the 3 trait lines that core DPS eles use. A typical core DPS ele would use fire/air/arcane, while a DPS weaver uses fire/air/weaver. For these builds to have similar DPS weaver would only be allowed to be as good as arcane for DPS builds, which means that fire and air would have to be clearly more powerful trait lines than weaver in terms of DPS. This is the problem that arises from elite specs being able to take everything you could want from core.

> No, this is the problem that arises when the focus you give to new elite spec is something that core was doing well. Ele was primarily a dps class. Making a dps-focused elite spec for it was not a good idea.

>

>

>

>

 

Ele also had some of the greatest support capabilities of all core specs and tempest is way better than core at that. What exactly would you give elementalist that it doesn't have with core? There is nothing except maybe a faceroll solo spec. The only professions that can benefit from this approach are the ones that barely had support capabilities ever in core. The rest will inevitably have elite specs conflicting with core.

[Firebeard.1746]

> @"Ganathar.4956" said:

> > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > @"TrollingDemigod.3041" said:

> > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > > I think the entire debate about core and elite specs makes no sense and core should be clearly inferior, but I shall explain why:

> > > >

> > > > First off, core specs as is right now are completely integrated into every elite spec with only some minor alterations here and there. To change this, core builds would need to be built similar to an elite spec with very own traits and mechanics. This would be potentially even more effort than a new elite spec since core traits, skills, etc would need to be redesigned as to not work the same way in elite specs.

> > > >

> > > > If the effort is just as much as designing a new elite spec, then I'd rather arenanet work on additional elite specs. It would be way easier to balance around 3 elite specs (without major concern to core classes) over balanceing around core classes and 2 elite specs (for referance, currently they are balancing mostly around the elite specs only).

> > > >

> > > > I just don't see the benefit in making core classes viable. The only reason for this would be if people enjoy the core abilities over every single elite spec available to their class. In which case its more an issue of designing an elite spec which caters or is somewhat similar to the core class (which most classes have). Even then I would personally racther have 3 elite specs than core builds +2elites.

> > > >

> > > > As to power creep, yeah that ship sailed looooong ago. I don't deal with notions of grandeur or immagination. The power creep will never get toned back, and to some extent it shouldn't since all content since HoT was designed with higher than vanilla power levels in mind. I do agree though that elite specs should be toned down a bit as well as balanced against each other.

> > >

> > > If I'm not mistaken years ago A-net themselves said that E-Spec would offer different playstyle(not a straight-up upgrade to core) without making it mandatory but currently it's meta e-spec or shoo away. There's no need to "built similar to an elite spec", because they're just nothing more than a traitlines and skills like everything else. I don't understand your point of view at all, it seems like you consider E-spec like something totally different, but they're nothing more than a trait lines and access to new skills, do not forget that.

> >

> > **Yes, the entire core class is available to every elite spec. That is the fundamental difference to elite specs which can, as a result of being exclusive to each other, get balanced way easier.** Now in order for both core AND elite spec to be equal in power, the elite spec needs to be essentially a full sidegrade to the core class while ALSO offering an additional traitline and new skills. I doubt that is even remotely possible to be achieved and you would too doubt this to be possible if you gave it some deeper thought.

> >

> > It's a very simple mathematical equation. Core builds are X, elite specs are Y. X is part of Y thus Y is X+N, but you want X and Y to be equal. This would be only doable with severe drawbacks in elite specs (as to compensate for having access to the full core class) which in turn means they would need severe penalties. Not only is this not fun, it would be very hard to balance. As I had mentioned earlier.

>

> The balancing issue gets even worse than this when you think about it even more. Let's use elementalist for example. For core elementalist to do similar DPS to weaver in raids, the package that weaver gives needs to compete with the worst of the 3 trait lines that core DPS eles use. A typical core DPS ele would use fire/air/arcane, while a DPS weaver uses fire/air/weaver. For these builds to have similar DPS weaver would only be allowed to be as good as arcane for DPS builds, which means that fire and air would have to be clearly more powerful trait lines than weaver in terms of DPS. This is the problem that arises from elite specs being able to take everything you could want from core. You can always use an elite spec to replace the least desirable trait line within your build, so of course the build with the elite spec will end up stronger even if they made sure that the elite spec itself is not the strongest trait line of the profession. Basically, balancing them with core is impossible, especially when you consider that DPS is not the only thing that you need to balance for.

>

>

 

Anet has already made certain skills behave different based on spec. All they have to do is change core attunements to behave differently and give additional bonuses. Leave traits out of the equation.

[Ganathar.4956]

> @"Firebeard.1746" said:

> > @"Ganathar.4956" said:

> > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > > @"TrollingDemigod.3041" said:

> > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > > > I think the entire debate about core and elite specs makes no sense and core should be clearly inferior, but I shall explain why:

> > > > >

> > > > > First off, core specs as is right now are completely integrated into every elite spec with only some minor alterations here and there. To change this, core builds would need to be built similar to an elite spec with very own traits and mechanics. This would be potentially even more effort than a new elite spec since core traits, skills, etc would need to be redesigned as to not work the same way in elite specs.

> > > > >

> > > > > If the effort is just as much as designing a new elite spec, then I'd rather arenanet work on additional elite specs. It would be way easier to balance around 3 elite specs (without major concern to core classes) over balanceing around core classes and 2 elite specs (for referance, currently they are balancing mostly around the elite specs only).

> > > > >

> > > > > I just don't see the benefit in making core classes viable. The only reason for this would be if people enjoy the core abilities over every single elite spec available to their class. In which case its more an issue of designing an elite spec which caters or is somewhat similar to the core class (which most classes have). Even then I would personally racther have 3 elite specs than core builds +2elites.

> > > > >

> > > > > As to power creep, yeah that ship sailed looooong ago. I don't deal with notions of grandeur or immagination. The power creep will never get toned back, and to some extent it shouldn't since all content since HoT was designed with higher than vanilla power levels in mind. I do agree though that elite specs should be toned down a bit as well as balanced against each other.

> > > >

> > > > If I'm not mistaken years ago A-net themselves said that E-Spec would offer different playstyle(not a straight-up upgrade to core) without making it mandatory but currently it's meta e-spec or shoo away. There's no need to "built similar to an elite spec", because they're just nothing more than a traitlines and skills like everything else. I don't understand your point of view at all, it seems like you consider E-spec like something totally different, but they're nothing more than a trait lines and access to new skills, do not forget that.

> > >

> > > **Yes, the entire core class is available to every elite spec. That is the fundamental difference to elite specs which can, as a result of being exclusive to each other, get balanced way easier.** Now in order for both core AND elite spec to be equal in power, the elite spec needs to be essentially a full sidegrade to the core class while ALSO offering an additional traitline and new skills. I doubt that is even remotely possible to be achieved and you would too doubt this to be possible if you gave it some deeper thought.

> > >

> > > It's a very simple mathematical equation. Core builds are X, elite specs are Y. X is part of Y thus Y is X+N, but you want X and Y to be equal. This would be only doable with severe drawbacks in elite specs (as to compensate for having access to the full core class) which in turn means they would need severe penalties. Not only is this not fun, it would be very hard to balance. As I had mentioned earlier.

> >

> > The balancing issue gets even worse than this when you think about it even more. Let's use elementalist for example. For core elementalist to do similar DPS to weaver in raids, the package that weaver gives needs to compete with the worst of the 3 trait lines that core DPS eles use. A typical core DPS ele would use fire/air/arcane, while a DPS weaver uses fire/air/weaver. For these builds to have similar DPS weaver would only be allowed to be as good as arcane for DPS builds, which means that fire and air would have to be clearly more powerful trait lines than weaver in terms of DPS. This is the problem that arises from elite specs being able to take everything you could want from core. You can always use an elite spec to replace the least desirable trait line within your build, so of course the build with the elite spec will end up stronger even if they made sure that the elite spec itself is not the strongest trait line of the profession. Basically, balancing them with core is impossible, especially when you consider that DPS is not the only thing that you need to balance for.

> >

> >

>

> Anet has already made certain skills behave different based on spec. All they have to do is change core attunements to behave differently and give additional bonuses.

 

They have made such changes and yet they haven't truly succeeded in making core equal to elites with this method. This is because of the combination of getting extra utility and weapon options, in addition to what I said about the elite needing to be equal with the least important core trait line in a given build dedicated to a role. This is a lot of issues that you have to deal with. It would probably be way easier if they introduced a new batch of elite specs in LW5, with LW5 being accessible to players of the core game. This way core players will not be necessarily outclassed by PoF and HoT elites. If you eventually have enough elite specs the viability of core builds becomes irrelevant anyway, since the amount of elite specs gives you the variety that you want.

[Firebeard.1746]

> @"Ganathar.4956" said:

> > @"Firebeard.1746" said:

> > > @"Ganathar.4956" said:

> > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > > > @"TrollingDemigod.3041" said:

> > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > > > > I think the entire debate about core and elite specs makes no sense and core should be clearly inferior, but I shall explain why:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > First off, core specs as is right now are completely integrated into every elite spec with only some minor alterations here and there. To change this, core builds would need to be built similar to an elite spec with very own traits and mechanics. This would be potentially even more effort than a new elite spec since core traits, skills, etc would need to be redesigned as to not work the same way in elite specs.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > If the effort is just as much as designing a new elite spec, then I'd rather arenanet work on additional elite specs. It would be way easier to balance around 3 elite specs (without major concern to core classes) over balanceing around core classes and 2 elite specs (for referance, currently they are balancing mostly around the elite specs only).

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> > > > > > I just don't see the benefit in making core classes viable. The only reason for this would be if people enjoy the core abilities over every single elite spec available to their class. In which case its more an issue of designing an elite spec which caters or is somewhat similar to the core class (which most classes have). Even then I would personally racther have 3 elite specs than core builds +2elites.

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> > > > > > As to power creep, yeah that ship sailed looooong ago. I don't deal with notions of grandeur or immagination. The power creep will never get toned back, and to some extent it shouldn't since all content since HoT was designed with higher than vanilla power levels in mind. I do agree though that elite specs should be toned down a bit as well as balanced against each other.

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> > > > > If I'm not mistaken years ago A-net themselves said that E-Spec would offer different playstyle(not a straight-up upgrade to core) without making it mandatory but currently it's meta e-spec or shoo away. There's no need to "built similar to an elite spec", because they're just nothing more than a traitlines and skills like everything else. I don't understand your point of view at all, it seems like you consider E-spec like something totally different, but they're nothing more than a trait lines and access to new skills, do not forget that.

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> > > > **Yes, the entire core class is available to every elite spec. That is the fundamental difference to elite specs which can, as a result of being exclusive to each other, get balanced way easier.** Now in order for both core AND elite spec to be equal in power, the elite spec needs to be essentially a full sidegrade to the core class while ALSO offering an additional traitline and new skills. I doubt that is even remotely possible to be achieved and you would too doubt this to be possible if you gave it some deeper thought.

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> > > > It's a very simple mathematical equation. Core builds are X, elite specs are Y. X is part of Y thus Y is X+N, but you want X and Y to be equal. This would be only doable with severe drawbacks in elite specs (as to compensate for having access to the full core class) which in turn means they would need severe penalties. Not only is this not fun, it would be very hard to balance. As I had mentioned earlier.

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> > > The balancing issue gets even worse than this when you think about it even more. Let's use elementalist for example. For core elementalist to do similar DPS to weaver in raids, the package that weaver gives needs to compete with the worst of the 3 trait lines that core DPS eles use. A typical core DPS ele would use fire/air/arcane, while a DPS weaver uses fire/air/weaver. For these builds to have similar DPS weaver would only be allowed to be as good as arcane for DPS builds, which means that fire and air would have to be clearly more powerful trait lines than weaver in terms of DPS. This is the problem that arises from elite specs being able to take everything you could want from core. You can always use an elite spec to replace the least desirable trait line within your build, so of course the build with the elite spec will end up stronger even if they made sure that the elite spec itself is not the strongest trait line of the profession. Basically, balancing them with core is impossible, especially when you consider that DPS is not the only thing that you need to balance for.

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> > Anet has already made certain skills behave different based on spec. All they have to do is change core attunements to behave differently and give additional bonuses.

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> They have made such changes and yet they haven't truly succeeded in making core equal to elites with this method. This is because of the combination of getting extra utility and weapon options, in addition to what I said about the elite needing to be equal with the least important core trait line in a given build dedicated to a role. This is a lot of issues that you have to deal with. It would probably be way easier if they introduced a new batch of elite specs in LW5, with LW5 being accessible to players of the core game. This way core players will not be necessarily outclassed by PoF and HoT elites. If you eventually have enough elite specs the viability of core builds becomes irrelevant anyway, since the amount of elite specs gives you the variety that you want.

 

But the change in mentality is pretty recent. So i don't think they've actually tried to bring core in line with elites in this way. You just have to add a lot of utility to core attunements to make up for it. What I was to was referring to were chrono shatters last patch.