Deadeye is weak in PVE

[tigirius.9014]

Deadeye even with buffs and stolen buffs it just doesn't do much damage. Enemies stay for long period of time alive and well dancing around shots like they got tickled.

 

Engineer PVE with the new elite spec Holosmith puts Deadeye to shame, I can range it and shoot shots at enemies knocking enemies over at range and easily avoiding shots.

 

I think the developers have severely nerfed this spec because of a false notion that a ranged character should not be powerful, they did this with the long bows once on the Rangers as I recall it was well overdone and the longbow was so weak no one used them anymore across the entire game.

 

Arenanet please fix this damage ratio on this class because you've nerfed it under the table for PVE.

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

I have literally the opposite experience. In the overworld with Be Quick or Be Killed, I use D/P with Mug. I have near permanent quickness and heal from mug each time an enemy dies, and my first attack stuns them for a second. I'm whipping around like a freak with shadow shut, cutting enemies down like a human buzz-saw.

 

If I happen to see a group that I can't render utterly helpless with black powder, I'll park myself down with rifle at max range, then systematically pick enemies off. I still get a ton of quickness, but I also stack a lot of might. All of the enemies die before they reach me, and for that one who does reach me I weapon swap and begin the buzz-saw rotation. The damage is fine, and most of the enemies. Against a champion, if I hit max malice I can spam DJ for several consecutive 24k hits when solo.

 

The Deadeye has comparable damage to the Daredevil when it comes to power damage. From the perspective of power creep it isn't good, but from the perspective of balance the Deadeye is perfectly fine.

[Rhomulos.2089]

> @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:

> I have literally the opposite experience. In the overworld with Be Quick or Be Killed, I use D/P with Mug. I have near permanent quickness and heal from mug each time an enemy dies, and my first attack stuns them for a second. I'm whipping around like a freak with shadow shut, cutting enemies down like a human buzz-saw.

>

> If I happen to see a group that I can't render utterly helpless with black powder, I'll park myself down with rifle at max range, then systematically pick enemies off. I still get a ton of quickness, but I also stack a lot of might. All of the enemies die before they reach me, and for that one who does reach me I weapon swap and begin the buzz-saw rotation. The damage is fine, and most of the enemies. Against a champion, if I hit max malice I can spam DJ for several consecutive 24k hits when solo.

>

> The Deadeye has comparable damage to the Daredevil when it comes to power damage. From the perspective of power creep it isn't good, but from the perspective of balance the Deadeye is perfectly fine.

 

Deadeye has extremely low damage, for pve its nothing more than an open world RP spec. Its fun and feels good when not using a rifle, but the dps is not good at all.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:

> I have literally the opposite experience. In the overworld with Be Quick or Be Killed, I use D/P with Mug. I have near permanent quickness and heal from mug each time an enemy dies, and my first attack stuns them for a second. I'm whipping around like a freak with shadow shut, cutting enemies down like a human buzz-saw.

>

> If I happen to see a group that I can't render utterly helpless with black powder, I'll park myself down with rifle at max range, then systematically pick enemies off. I still get a ton of quickness, but I also stack a lot of might. All of the enemies die before they reach me, and for that one who does reach me I weapon swap and begin the buzz-saw rotation. The damage is fine, and most of the enemies. Against a champion, if I hit max malice I can spam DJ for several consecutive 24k hits when solo.

>

> The Deadeye has comparable damage to the Daredevil when it comes to power damage. From the perspective of power creep it isn't good, but from the perspective of balance the Deadeye is perfectly fine.

 

Lol, no. And even if the Deadeye _is_ comparable to Daredevil in terms of damage, which I doubt, the Daredevil has a massive edge in mobility, so anything DE can do, DD can do better. If Deadeye is going to lack the Daredevil's mobility, then it needs to not just match the DD in terms of damage, it needs to be _much_ higher. And not just against target golems, I'm talking against real enemies that are constantly moving, attacking, etc.

[Rhomulos.2089]

> @Ohoni.6057 said:

> > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:

> > I have literally the opposite experience. In the overworld with Be Quick or Be Killed, I use D/P with Mug. I have near permanent quickness and heal from mug each time an enemy dies, and my first attack stuns them for a second. I'm whipping around like a freak with shadow shut, cutting enemies down like a human buzz-saw.

> >

> > If I happen to see a group that I can't render utterly helpless with black powder, I'll park myself down with rifle at max range, then systematically pick enemies off. I still get a ton of quickness, but I also stack a lot of might. All of the enemies die before they reach me, and for that one who does reach me I weapon swap and begin the buzz-saw rotation. The damage is fine, and most of the enemies. Against a champion, if I hit max malice I can spam DJ for several consecutive 24k hits when solo.

> >

> > The Deadeye has comparable damage to the Daredevil when it comes to power damage. From the perspective of power creep it isn't good, but from the perspective of balance the Deadeye is perfectly fine.

>

> Lol, no. And even if the Deadeye _is_ comparable to Daredevil in terms of damage, which I doubt, the Daredevil has a massive edge in mobility, so anything DE can do, DD can do better. If Deadeye is going to lack the Daredevil's mobility, then it needs to not just match the DD in terms of damage, it needs to be _much_ higher. And not just against target golems, I'm talking against real enemies that are constantly moving, attacking, etc.

 

Don't forget, DD also cleaves, meaning its 'comparable' damage skyrockets in fights wanting cleave.

[Alatar.7364]

It is Weak in PvE due to Rifles Single Target only DMG, unlike Rangers/Warriors Longbow it has no AoE skills.

So basically you should be swapping to your second Weapon set quite often for cleaves, etc. If you do that, then it's not necessarily Weak, only the Mindset behind playing with Rifle might make you think so.

[Saraneth.6021]

> @Alatar.7364 said:

> It is Weak in PvE due to Rifles Single Target only DMG, unlike Rangers/Warriors Longbow it has no AoE skills.

> So basically you should be swapping to your second Weapon set quite often for cleaves, etc. If you do that, then it's not necessarily Weak, only the Mindset behind playing with Rifle might make you think so.

 

Na. Even on single target bosses the rifle falls behind pretty much everything else. Which is shouldn't. The damage is supposed to be on par with good melee DPS.

[Alatar.7364]

> @Saraneth.6021 said:

> > @Alatar.7364 said:

> > It is Weak in PvE due to Rifles Single Target only DMG, unlike Rangers/Warriors Longbow it has no AoE skills.

> > So basically you should be swapping to your second Weapon set quite often for cleaves, etc. If you do that, then it's not necessarily Weak, only the Mindset behind playing with Rifle might make you think so.

>

> Na. Even on single target bosses the rifle falls behind pretty much everything else. Which is shouldn't. The damage is supposed to be on par with melee.

 

I think in that case we can assume the Ranged dmg to be an advantage over Melee Dmg, cause you don't have to reach your target. In such case it would be only fair for Ranged dmg to be lower than Melee as compensation.

[knyy.6427]

> @Alatar.7364 said:

> > @Saraneth.6021 said:

> > > @Alatar.7364 said:

> > > It is Weak in PvE due to Rifles Single Target only DMG, unlike Rangers/Warriors Longbow it has no AoE skills.

> > > So basically you should be swapping to your second Weapon set quite often for cleaves, etc. If you do that, then it's not necessarily Weak, only the Mindset behind playing with Rifle might make you think so.

> >

> > Na. Even on single target bosses the rifle falls behind pretty much everything else. Which is shouldn't. The damage is supposed to be on par with melee.

>

> I think in that case we can assume the Ranged dmg to be an advantage over Melee Dmg, cause you don't have to reach your target. In such case it would be only fair for Ranged dmg to be lower than Melee as compensation.

 

Range dmg is not necessary in most cases in endgame pve. Actually you want to stack for boons.

So basically, nobody cares about range dmg (endgame pve).

[Saraneth.6021]

> @Alatar.7364 said:

> > @Saraneth.6021 said:

> > > @Alatar.7364 said:

> > > It is Weak in PvE due to Rifles Single Target only DMG, unlike Rangers/Warriors Longbow it has no AoE skills.

> > > So basically you should be swapping to your second Weapon set quite often for cleaves, etc. If you do that, then it's not necessarily Weak, only the Mindset behind playing with Rifle might make you think so.

> >

> > Na. Even on single target bosses the rifle falls behind pretty much everything else. Which is shouldn't. The damage is supposed to be on par with melee.

>

> I think in that case we can assume the Ranged dmg to be an advantage over Melee Dmg, cause you don't have to reach your target. In such case it would be only fair for Ranged dmg to be lower than Melee as compensation.

 

Again! The devs said they were breaking their own rule when it comes to DE rifle. The damage was supposed to be on par and the down side to keep it balanced was the loss of mobility. That isn't what we have. We have sub par damage with mobility loss.

 

If they now want the damage to be more on par with other ranged options, they need to give us back our mobility!

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

> @Ohoni.6057 said:

> Lol, no. And even if the Deadeye _is_ comparable to Daredevil in terms of damage, which I doubt, the Daredevil has a massive edge in mobility, so anything DE can do, DD can do better. If Deadeye is going to lack the Daredevil's mobility, then it needs to not just match the DD in terms of damage, it needs to be _much_ higher. And not just against target golems, I'm talking against real enemies that are constantly moving, attacking, etc.

 

Check qT's numbers. Power Daredevil is 31.9k. Power Deadeye is 31.1k. That's basically the same damage.

 

As far as mobility goes, heartseeker and mounts. For most of my fights I just use shadow shot to jump from enemy to enemy, so I have absolutely no problem getting around while in combat.

 

As far as unique things go, the Deadeye has several things the daredevil doesn't. First, it is excellent at self buffing. Solo you'll regularly hit 25 might stacks, and it has massive quickness uptime. The steal skills also give things like resistance and protection. Second, the 1500 range on rifle cannot be ignored, since it gives the Deadeye the ability to kill many threats without putting itself in danger. Third, it has excellent soft and hard control. Nearly all of the Deadeye's utilities have CC of some kind, and the rifle can chain a piercing immobilize. Shadow Flare is an extremely high damaging AoE skill.

 

I don't know how it is you guys are having problems playing a spec that spams blind fields, has near permanent quickness, and can do respectable damage through auto attacks. I can kill anything less than a silver mob before it even reaches me. On the Daredevil I have to blow my entire initiative bar to do what the Deadeye can do just by marking and auto attacking.

 

> @Rhomulos.2089 said:

>

> Don't forget, DD also cleaves, meaning its 'comparable' damage skyrockets in fights wanting cleave.

 

Deadeye cleaves >.>

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

> @Alatar.7364 said:

> > @Saraneth.6021 said:

> > > @Alatar.7364 said:

> > > It is Weak in PvE due to Rifles Single Target only DMG, unlike Rangers/Warriors Longbow it has no AoE skills.

> > > So basically you should be swapping to your second Weapon set quite often for cleaves, etc. If you do that, then it's not necessarily Weak, only the Mindset behind playing with Rifle might make you think so.

> >

> > Na. Even on single target bosses the rifle falls behind pretty much everything else. Which is shouldn't. The damage is supposed to be on par with melee.

>

> I think in that case we can assume the Ranged dmg to be an advantage over Melee Dmg, cause you don't have to reach your target. In such case it would be only fair for Ranged dmg to be lower than Melee as compensation.

 

Pretty much this. If you're talking about high end fractals and raids, of course you're going to spend most of your time in melee. It doesn't matter what class or spec you're playing.

 

But, there are a few places where I have used the Rifle. In particular, during the last 35% of the MAMA fight in nightmare cm, the gigantic poison pools can end up locking parts of the map down, making a ranged weapon a necessity. I happen to know that the Deadeye can attack MAMA from outside it's shockwave range, making it very safe and reliable DPS in that fight. The 50k hits on Death's Judgement are really good in these circumstances.

 

Another place is the Chaos Fractal. Again, champions can get stuck in damage pools, and the final boss spends a lot of time running around chasing players. The ability to park in place and do damage is really useful here. I've also used the Rifle on the Solid Ocean Fractal, as well as against the Dredge from the Molten Boss when he camps on the outer rims. And underground where I would try to distract the dredge. Etc. and so on.

 

The short version is, the rifle is an excellent weapon in places where you need to use a ranged weapon. If you're kneeling in the face of a boss, you aren't doing it right.

[Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497]

> @tigirius.9014 said:

> Deadeye even with buffs and stolen buffs it just doesn't do much damage. Enemies stay for long period of time alive and well dancing around shots like they got tickled.

>

> Engineer PVE with the new elite spec Holosmith puts Deadeye to shame, I can range it and shoot shots at enemies knocking enemies over at range and easily avoiding shots.

>

> I think the developers have severely nerfed this spec because of a false notion that a ranged character should not be powerful, they did this with the long bows once on the Rangers as I recall it was well overdone and the longbow was so weak no one used them anymore across the entire game.

>

> Arenanet please fix this damage ratio on this class because you've nerfed it under the table for PVE.

 

You must be doing something wrong. I am one of the hardest hitting players in group events and fractals. And I'm not even in Zerks.

 

If you're going to complain about the lack of AOE as a counter argument (which is common), you have Shadow Flare for AOE damage. You can put on grievers and use caltrops. Or you can get good and adjust your positioning to get the most out of Deadeye's penetrating shot. Even the Superior Sigil of Fire works well.

 

For Melee Cleave you got sword for that which is awesome with malice. Sword Pistol for invulnerability while you are buzzing people down. Sword Dagger for Fights were mobility is important. Each whack with sword's auto easily deals 4k damage when compared to zerks staff which does have cleave but the damage is around 6-7 for the full auto rotation.

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

> @Alatar.7364 said:

> > @Saraneth.6021 said:

> > > @Alatar.7364 said:

> > > It is Weak in PvE due to Rifles Single Target only DMG, unlike Rangers/Warriors Longbow it has no AoE skills.

> > > So basically you should be swapping to your second Weapon set quite often for cleaves, etc. If you do that, then it's not necessarily Weak, only the Mindset behind playing with Rifle might make you think so.

> >

> > Na. Even on single target bosses the rifle falls behind pretty much everything else. Which is shouldn't. The damage is supposed to be on par with melee.

>

> I think in that case we can assume the Ranged dmg to be an advantage over Melee Dmg, cause you don't have to reach your target. In such case it would be only fair for Ranged dmg to be lower than Melee as compensation.

 

The thing about the rifle is that the damage has a rear-loaded arc. Effectively it has a ramp up time. If you have maximum malice, you can chain several 24k Death's Judgements while solo, and over 50k Death's Judgements in a group. During that time period, the Rifle outpaces every melee weapon in the game. Outside of that time period, the Rifle is only mediocre. There's already plenty of tears in PVP about Deadeyes dropping players in a single hit from stealth. Outside of meta comps, the 20% crit chance on rifle is pretty meaningful, too.

 

If you demand an answer from the devs, they're probably going to mention this. Now, personally I'm not against buffs for the Rifle. I think that Three Round Burst and Double Tap should only cost 3 initiative and Cursed Bullet should have half the cast time. Those little change would add a lot of sustained damage and buffs to the Rifle. But for now, I'd like to see how much the other classes get nerfed from this upcoming balance patch before demanding the rifle do double damage.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @Alatar.7364 said:

> It is Weak in PvE due to Rifles Single Target only DMG, unlike Rangers/Warriors Longbow it has no AoE skills.

> So basically you should be swapping to your second Weapon set quite often for cleaves, etc. If you do that, then it's not necessarily Weak, only the Mindset behind playing with Rifle might make you think so.

 

Except that the play style of the Rifle is also completely incompatible with the other weapons. Do you remember OG Shortbow? It actually used to be fairly decent before they killed its max range, but even with that, the DE wouldn't have any good options, because the Rifle is meant to be used at max range, and any options a Thief has to AoE stuff is only really effective at 400 range or less. There is no "mindset" that allows you to reasonably swap between Rifle and anything else that is particularly effective.

 

And even if you do swap to a secondary weapon set, and do abandon the Rifle entirely, you're left with a class that will not be as good as Daredevil. Really the only way Deadeye could work in remotely its current form is if you could press weapon swap to not just switch weapons, but to switch entire BUILDS from a Rifle DE to a Staff Daredevil so that you can actually be effective in melee.

 

Really, if they want to keep Rifle single target, and I think that's a reasonable design choice, then for it to be useful in PvE they would need to make it ramp up _ridiculously_ well on a per-kill basis. Like the DE already has a little of that, but I'm talking it would need a LOT more. Like the basic strategy when dealing with a pack of mobs using AoE cleave options is to target the biggest guy and allow splash damage to take out the weak ones, right? For a single target Rifle to be equally effective, the only way I can think to make that happen is that each time you kill something you get a massive, medium duration, _stacking_ damage boost, such that if you see a Vet and three adds, your strategy would be to kill one add, which you'd have the DPS to do faster than a Daredevil could kill anything. And that would give you a boost, which would allow you to kill the second one even faster. And that would give you a second boost, which would allow you to kill the third add even faster, and then with that fourth boost, you could tear through the Vet like tissue paper. Overall the encounter would take about the same time as the DD Staff vs the encounter, but your time focused on the Vet would be much lower. Of course, the difficulty here would be balancing it against all types of encounters. It would likely end up always weaker against 2-3 enemies, and pretty nuts against massive waves of enemies (although stack limits could reduce this potential).

 

Either way, the current situation just doesn't cut it.

 

> @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:

>Check qT's numbers. Power Daredevil is 31.9k. Power Deadeye is 31.1k. That's basically the same damage.

 

But again, Deadeye is single target only, non-mobile, while Daredevil is multi-target, with plenty of useful tools and mobility. "basically the same damage" is "basically a much worse spec."

 

>As far as mobility goes, heartseeker and mounts. For most of my fights I just use shadow shot to jump from enemy to enemy, so I have absolutely no problem getting around while in combat.

 

But anything a Deadeye can do, a Daredevil can do better. You might be able to reach your targets, but you have far fewer options for avoiding damage with the less dodges and no Vault.

 

>As far as unique things go, the Deadeye has several things the daredevil doesn't. First, it is excellent at self buffing. Solo you'll regularly hit 25 might stacks, and it has massive quickness uptime. The steal skills also give things like resistance and protection. Second, the 1500 range on rifle cannot be ignored, since it gives the Deadeye the ability to kill many threats without putting itself in danger. Third, it has excellent soft and hard control. Nearly all of the Deadeye's utilities have CC of some kind, and the rifle can chain a piercing immobilize. Shadow Flare is an extremely high damaging AoE skill.

 

First, I don't care how many buffs I can stack if the practical effects of those buffs do not make me considerably more effective, and so far as I can tell, they do not. Second, 1500 range is great, and I was looking forward to it, but in practical terms it cannot be relied upon, since many fights force you to start from point blank range. The 1500 range is a tool in the toolkit, but that alone is not worth the sacrifices the spec has to make. Third, DD has a lot of CC effects too. I think the Cantrips are interesting, but not enough to salvage the spec.

 

>On the Daredevil I have to blow my entire initiative bar to do what the Deadeye can do just by marking and auto attacking.

 

Then you're playing Daredevil wrong.

 

> @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said:

>If you're going to complain about the lack of AOE as a counter argument (which is common), you have Shadow Flare for AOE damage.

 

Shadow Flare has a 30s cooldown. It has a list damage of 403. Punishing Strikes has no CD and has a listed damage of 676x4. Vault has no CD and has a listed damage of 908. How many Vaults can you get off between DE Shadow Flares? I've never known a basic Utility that is actually useful as a DPS weapon, they are situational bonus damage, sure, but no substitute for actual common skills.

 

> @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:

> If you demand an answer from the devs, they're probably going to mention this. Now, personally I'm not against buffs for the Rifle. I think that Three Round Burst and Double Tap should only cost 3 initiative and Cursed Bullet should have half the cast time. Those little change would add a lot of sustained damage and buffs to the Rifle. But for now, I'd like to see how much the other classes get nerfed from this upcoming balance patch before demanding the rifle do double damage.

 

If there are PvP balance issues then they need to split effects. We're talking about PvE here. They could nerf every other spec into the ground and it would be irrelevant to the conversation, we're talking about how the spec does against the actual content in the game. Likewise, discussions about what a peak build can do under ideal conditions is rather pointless if those conditions are difficult to replicate. If that is the case, then they still need to provide solutions that would cause the median performance to be better than it is, and if that means reducing the peak performance to keep it from being OP, that's fine too. What is important is making the spec fun and valuable to the majority of people who pick it up, and that's not something they can explain away with excuses that the class "works well on paper," they need to actually take _action._

[Doctor Hide.6345]

> @Alatar.7364 said:

> > @Saraneth.6021 said:

> > > @Alatar.7364 said:

> > > It is Weak in PvE due to Rifles Single Target only DMG, unlike Rangers/Warriors Longbow it has no AoE skills.

> > > So basically you should be swapping to your second Weapon set quite often for cleaves, etc. If you do that, then it's not necessarily Weak, only the Mindset behind playing with Rifle might make you think so.

> >

> > Na. Even on single target bosses the rifle falls behind pretty much everything else. Which is shouldn't. The damage is supposed to be on par with melee.

>

> I think in that case we can assume the Ranged dmg to be an advantage over Melee Dmg, cause you don't have to reach your target. In such case it would be only fair for Ranged dmg to be lower than Melee as compensation.

 

The devs basically stated they are breaking their own rules when it comes to Deadeye. They wanted to make the damage be just as powerful as melee damage with the lack of mobility to balance it out. They failed on their first iteration of that with the rifle. I hope the rifle does get buffed to where it is at melee level damage when you kneel.

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

> @Ohoni.6057 said:

>

> Except that the play style of the Rifle is also completely incompatible with the other weapons. Do you remember OG Shortbow? It actually used to be fairly decent before they killed its max range, but even with that, the DE wouldn't have any good options, because the Rifle is meant to be used at max range, and any options a Thief has to AoE stuff is only really effective at 400 range or less. There is no "mindset" that allows you to reasonably swap between Rifle and anything else that is particularly effective.

 

I'm sorry, but exactly what game mode are you talking about here? Not only are your complaints extremely general, but often times they're flat out wrong. I.E. Shadow Flare is 1200 range with 240 radius. Skirmisher's Shot and Spotter's shot pierces. Peripheral vision also has 1200 range. If you want to close the gap, Shadow Shot has 900 range, as does Infiltrator's Strike. Of course, that is all irrelevant, because if you're playing a full zerker deadeye built for damage, then most mobs die before they reach you. Even if you engage a pack of mobs, the chain marking will give you near permanent quickness, letting you cut them down one by one while buffing yourself to the nines.

 

What exactly is this "incompatibility" that you speak of? Because there is nothing on the deadeye that negatively affects the usage of any weapon in any way on the class. I run D/P just fine, and I've run S/D just fine, and I've run D/D just fine as well. Neither the rifle, nor the utilities, nor the traits in any way negatively affects other weapons. You say "other options", but don't give a single example. I swap between weapons seamlessly, and when I am in melee I am doing the same melee damage that the Daredevil does.

 

You bring up these "problems" but not a single one of them exists.

 

> @Ohoni.6057 said:

> But again, Deadeye is single target only, non-mobile, while Daredevil is multi-target, with plenty of useful tools and mobility. "basically the same damage" is "basically a much worse spec."

 

The Deadeye is neither single target nor immobile.

 

> @Ohoni.6057 said:=

>

> But anything a Deadeye can do, a Daredevil can do better. You might be able to reach your targets, but you have far fewer options for avoiding damage with the less dodges and no Vault.

 

The Daredevl cannot self buff nor fight at range, and no, vaulting toward the enemy doesn't count as fighting at range, that is just getting into melee faster. Also, the Daredevil cannot chain immobilize, or group buff. The Deadeye still has all of it's skill dodges, and it can still spit out blind fields to render enemies helpless, and it can still CC. It is perfectly good at fighting in melee range.

 

> > @Ohoni.6057 said:

> First, I don't care how many buffs I can stack if the practical effects of those buffs do not make me considerably more effective, and so far as I can tell, they do not. Second, 1500 range is great, and I was looking forward to it, but in practical terms it cannot be relied upon, since many fights force you to start from point blank range. The 1500 range is a tool in the toolkit, but that alone is not worth the sacrifices the spec has to make. Third, DD has a lot of CC effects too. I think the Cantrips are interesting, but not enough to salvage the spec.

 

Are you serious? A Deadeye can cap and sustain might within seconds, which adds +750 power and condition damage. The high quickness uptime means 50% more auto attack damage. Perfectionist gives protection, regen, and vigor on top of the additional might and fury. There is something very critical you are missing here: When qT does it's damage tests, it does so under the assumption that boons and buffs will be provided by teammates and kept capped. This puts the Daredevil and the Deadeye on the same theoretical ground, but in effect it negates the practical application of self buffing. In practice, this means that while solo or with selfish teammates the Deadeye will climb high above the Daredevil because might increases damage by 27% for the whole group, and solo Quickness increases damage by a further 30% geometrically. This totals to a 65% damage increase. **While solo, the Deadeye is far stronger than the Daredevil.**

 

And this is why you have to blow your whole initiative bar to barely keep up with the Deadeye. Because while the deadeye can mark and cleave enemies down while expelling little to no initiative, the Daredevil has no such buffing ability. All it can do is dodge then chain weakening strikes or vault for damage, and once those run out the Daredevil slows to a crawl. You have to hamstring your DPS for defenses, while the Deadeye has the initiative to drop black powder with reckless abandon. Though it rarely needs to, because if you're running unforgiving, then the enemy will rarely survive long enough to break through both the stun and the initial blind from Shadow Shot.

 

Also, there are rarely any enemies that force you to start the fight at point blank range. Almost nothing in the overworld, and most boss fights in dungeons/fractals/raids begin in an arena where you can position and prep yourself all you like. The only exception to this that I can think of are hero points, which translates to 3 or so enemies per map, total.

 

> @Ohoni.6057 said:

> If there are PvP balance issues then they need to split effects. We're talking about PvE here. They could nerf every other spec into the ground and it would be irrelevant to the conversation, we're talking about how the spec does against the actual content in the game. Likewise, discussions about what a peak build can do under ideal conditions is rather pointless if those conditions are difficult to replicate. If that is the case, then they still need to provide solutions that would cause the median performance to be better than it is, and if that means reducing the peak performance to keep it from being OP, that's fine too. What is important is making the spec fun and valuable to the majority of people who pick it up, and that's not something they can explain away with excuses that the class "works well on paper," they need to actually take _action._

 

Yeah, no this isn't true. For fractals, raids, and for the sake of personal enjoyment the PVE classes are still balanced against each other, and as such the balance is relative. Likewise, nothing about the Deadeye is unrealistic. In PVE it is easy to get max malice or attack enemies at 1500 range.

 

Look, I'll give you the sum up, because [talking to you feels like this](

"https://youtube.com/watch?v=bKgWm5TNeBA"): The Daredevil is a better spec than the Deadeye generally. It has higher engagement time, more utility, a high damaging condi build, and better cleave. However, the Deadeye is far from without merit. First of all, it has _less_ of these things; it does not wholly lack them. Second, it is better at self buffing, better at group buffing, better stealth, and has further engagement range. This gives the Deadeye powerful and unique abilities that are used in different circumstances to the Daredevil. I.E. what a balanced elite spec should do. Because the thief has access to both of these things, you bring the DD where it is better, and you bring the DE where it is better.

 

For running around the overworld, I'm bring the Deadeye, because it is better there. For fractals, I am bringing the Daredevil, because it is better there. Unless I end up with a n00b team, in which case the Deadeye's buffs will be better.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:

> > @Ohoni.6057 said:

> >

> > Except that the play style of the Rifle is also completely incompatible with the other weapons. Do you remember OG Shortbow? It actually used to be fairly decent before they killed its max range, but even with that, the DE wouldn't have any good options, because the Rifle is meant to be used at max range, and any options a Thief has to AoE stuff is only really effective at 400 range or less. There is no "mindset" that allows you to reasonably swap between Rifle and anything else that is particularly effective.

>

> I'm sorry, but exactly what game mode are you talking about here? Not only are your complaints extremely general, but often times they're flat out wrong. I.E. Shadow Flare is 1200 range with 240 radius. Skirmisher's Shot and Spotter's shot pierces. Peripheral vision also has 1200 range. If you want to close the gap, Shadow Shot has 900 range, as does Infiltrator's Strike. Of course, that is all irrelevant, because if you're playing a full zerker deadeye built for damage, then most mobs die before they reach you. Even if you engage a pack of mobs, the chain marking will give you near permanent quickness, letting you cut them down one by one while buffing yourself to the nines.

 

Marking involves a cast time. If you can mark and individually kill multiple opponents before they can reach you, then they are moving very slowly or are very weak. And that's assuming that they're all melee so they don't get to attack until they reach you. My point is, when faced with multiple opponents, you basically have to ditch the rifle and go to melee, and if you're going to go to melee, why not use the Daredevil, which can do everything the DE can do in melee, only better?

 

> What exactly is this "incompatibility" that you speak of? Because there is nothing on the deadeye that negatively affects the usage of any weapon in any way on the class.

 

The DE is an upgrade to Core, it's just a downgrade to Daredevil, so since you have both options, why not go with Daredevil?

 

>I swap between weapons seamlessly, and when I am in melee I am doing the same melee damage that the Daredevil does.

 

Same as Daredevil with Staff? And do you have the same mobility that Daredevil has, with access to three dodges? If not, then shouldn't you be looking for _more_ damage to compensate, not just _equal_ damage?

 

> The Deadeye is neither single target nor immobile.

 

Disagree to agree.

 

> The Daredevl cannot self buff nor fight at range, and no, vaulting toward the enemy doesn't count as fighting at range, that is just getting into melee faster. Also, the Daredevil cannot chain immobilize, or group buff. The Deadeye still has all of it's skill dodges, and it can still spit out blind fields to render enemies helpless, and it can still CC. It is perfectly good at fighting in melee range.

 

The Daredevil doesn't need to self-buff so long as its core abilities are good enough, which they are. And yeah, the Staff is not great at range, but a P/P Daredevil is solid, and melee encounters are far more common than ranged ones. The Daredevil doesn't need to chain-immobilize and doesn't need to group buff either.

 

> Are you serious? A Deadeye can cap and sustain might within seconds, which adds +750 power and condition damage.

 

But _with_ that +750 damage is is pumping out more actual _damage_ than a Daredevil without them? I've seen no evidence of that.

 

>The high quickness uptime means 50% more auto attack damage.

 

Which is balanced out by having lower auto-attack damage, so again, net neutral.

 

I don't know what this "qT" you keep talking about is, I'm talking about actual in-game performance of the class under real world conditions.

 

> And this is why you have to blow your whole initiative bar to barely keep up with the Deadeye. Because while the deadeye can mark and cleave enemies down while expelling little to no initiative, the Daredevil has no such buffing ability. All it can do is dodge then chain weakening strikes or vault for damage, and once those run out the Daredevil slows to a crawl. You have to hamstring your DPS for defenses, while the Deadeye has the initiative to drop black powder with reckless abandon. Though it rarely needs to, because if you're running unforgiving, then the enemy will rarely survive long enough to break through both the stun and the initial blind from Shadow Shot.

 

Or just keep using auto-attack to outdamage a Deadeye.

 

>The Daredevil is a better spec than the Deadeye generally. It has higher engagement time, more utility, a high damaging condi build, and better cleave. However, the Deadeye is far from without merit. First of all, it has _less_ of these things; it does not wholly lack them. Second, it is better at self buffing, better at group buffing, better stealth, and has further engagement range. This gives the Deadeye powerful and unique abilities that are used in different circumstances to the Daredevil. I.E. what a balanced elite spec should do.

 

The the Deadeye is better at providing group support, that's great, and that can be ONE option that it has, but it in no way makes up for its solo capabilities. Those need to be great too. Both, not one or the other.

 

>Because the thief has access to both of these things, you bring the DD where it is better, and you bring the DE where it is better.

 

I would accept that IF you could swap builds using a button press. Given that instead switching builds is an annoying manual process, I insist that each build be equally good in ALL situations, so that I can pick the one I want to play and leave it completely alone. The only reason to switch between DD and DE should be personal preference, not utility need.

[babazhook.6805]

I have absolutely no idssues dealing with MOBS using Deadeye specs in Pve. I have soloed and aggroed 5 and 6 critters at a time including two veteran hydras at once just using P/p and s/p spec. While the MALICE stacks only work against a single target s/p can still cleave with pistol whip just as a daredevil can and does it with 20 might stacks that might working against all nearby creature. Shadowgust works beautifully here against groups of enemies blowing them all back even as you stealth. Slap a sigil of severance on and Your ferocity and power jump. You have quickness coming out the ying yang which makes those pistol whips occur ever faster.

 

To shadow flare. While its base damage is listed as 403 this is increased by the number of malice stacks you have on your mark. This extra damage appears to affect all creatures in the flares radius. If you have maximum malice at 7 thats pushing that Shadowflare damge to over 600 and it pulses 5 times. Added to that given you likely have 20+ stacks might full time that might adds to the damage.

 

 

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

> @Ohoni.6057 said:

> Marking involves a cast time. If you can mark and individually kill multiple opponents before they can reach you, then they are moving very slowly or are very weak. And that's assuming that they're all melee so they don't get to attack until they reach you. My point is, when faced with multiple opponents, you basically have to ditch the rifle and go to melee, and if you're going to go to melee, why not use the Daredevil, which can do everything the DE can do in melee, only better?

 

You don't have to ditch the rifle at all. If the enemies are close together you can just use rifle 2 to kill them all. As it happens, overworld mobs are generally weak, and after a mark + TRB they should be nearly dead. The only time you can't cleave with rifle is when the enemies are far enough apart that you wouldn't be able to hit them all with the Staff anyway. With it's numerous self buffs, the DE is better than the DD in melee, unless you have a teammate to provide boons for you. Besides, if you're really facing a horde of enemies, then vaulting in the middle of them will lead to a quick death after they all pile on you on the aftercast.

 

> @Ohoni.6057 said:

> The DE is an upgrade to Core, it's just a downgrade to Daredevil, so since you have both options, why not go with Daredevil?

 

You didn't read the entire post before writing this, did you?

 

> @Ohoni.6057 said:

> Same as Daredevil with Staff? And do you have the same mobility that Daredevil has, with access to three dodges? If not, then shouldn't you be looking for _more_ damage to compensate, not just _equal_ damage?

 

The same, if they both have buffs. But since the Daredevil does not self buff as well, the Deadeye does better melee damage until that fact is changed. The mobility is largely irrelevant with mounts, and if you're talking about hopping from enemy to enemy, then Shadow Shot and Heartseeker do that just fine.

 

> @Ohoni.6057 said:

> Disagree to agree.

 

This is not an opinion. You have made a claim, and it is flat out wrong. It is neither factually correct, nor technically correct, nor relatively correct. Continuing to make these claims spreads misinformation and speaks negatively about you as a person.

 

> @Ohoni.6057 said:

> The Daredevil doesn't need to self-buff

 

It really does. There is not a single class in this game that does not benefit massively from buffs. Let me put this into perspective: If the Deadeye and the Daredevil have the same DPS with full realistic buffs, then this means that the *Deadeye and the Daredevil have roughly the same DPS without buffs*. Might, Fury, Quickness, Alacrity affect both specs the same. So, logically, if they have the same damage without Might and Quickness, and one spec gives the boons while the other doesn't, then how does that work out in the end?

 

Group buffs are the best thing in the game. Those group buffs are the reason why one class is chosen over the other for fractals or raids. The biggest weakness to the Daredevil is the fact that it has no group buffs, and is an utterly selfish spec. If you're on a team that doesn't have good buffs, then capping the might of your teammates doesn't just increase your damage by 27%, it increases the entire team's damage by 27%. That is a massive bonus. The idea that Daredevil is somehow good enough without boons is an utter lie pulled out of thin air because you don't want to bother checking if you are correct.

 

> @Ohoni.6057 said:

> But _with_ that +750 damage is is pumping out more actual _damage_ than a Daredevil without them? I've seen no evidence of that.

 

It is, unquestionably.

 

> @Ohoni.6057 said:

> Which is balanced out by having lower auto-attack damage, so again, net neutral.

 

The Deadeye doesn't have lower auto attack damage. You're pulling things out of thin air again.

 

> @Ohoni.6057 said:

> I don't know what this "qT" you keep talking about is, I'm talking about actual in-game performance of the class under real world conditions.

 

qT is Quantify. They are a guild, and they have a[website/](http://qtfy.eu/ "qtfy.eu/") where they regularly put different builds and rotations to rigorous testing under realistic raid comps to determine the DPS that each class and build can output. They have video rotations, and also discuss their theory and results on reddit. They are essentially the authority on overall damage output, largely because they have the skills and the resources to constantly put all of the different classes to the test.

 

> @Ohoni.6057 said:

> Or just keep using auto-attack to outdamage a Deadeye.

 

Dagger has a stronger auto attack than staff. Before quickness and might. The Daredevil flounders in seconds while the Deadeye maintains competitive DPS, largely because the Daredevil's damage is tied wholly to consuming initiative and dodging.

 

> @Ohoni.6057 said:

> The the Deadeye is better at providing group support, that's great, and that can be ONE option that it has, but it in no way makes up for its solo capabilities. Those need to be great too. Both, not one or the other.

 

It's solo capabilities are already better than the Daredevil in the majority of circumstances.

 

> @Ohoni.6057 said:

> I would accept that IF you could swap builds using a button press. Given that instead switching builds is an annoying manual process, I insist that each build be equally good in ALL situations, so that I can pick the one I want to play and leave it completely alone. The only reason to switch between DD and DE should be personal preference, not utility need.

 

You can with arcDPS. Aside from that, Daredevil and Deadeye run really similar builds. You can swap between the two in 10 seconds, easily.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:

> Besides, if you're really facing a horde of enemies, then vaulting in the middle of them will lead to a quick death after they all pile on you on the aftercast.

 

That's why you don't vault, you blind them all and use auto-attack. If you do feel like Vaulting, you spam it enough times to get the job done, and then dodge back out of melee range when you're done. ABD, Always Be Dodging.

 

> You didn't read the entire post before writing this, did you?

 

I don't agree with your conclusions.

 

> The same, if they both have buffs. But since the Daredevil does not self buff as well, the Deadeye does better melee damage until that fact is changed. The mobility is largely irrelevant with mounts, and if you're talking about hopping from enemy to enemy, then Shadow Shot and Heartseeker do that just fine.

 

I meant the same with whatever buffs they bring to the table. A DE might be able to stack more buffs, but a DD is just as good with fewer buffs. And mounts are nice, but you can't mount up while in combat, so being able to use inherent mobility to avoid damage is still valuable. Sometimes you want to hop, but not TO an enemy.

 

> It really does. There is not a single class in this game that does not benefit massively from buffs. Let me put this into perspective: If the Deadeye and the Daredevil have the same DPS with full realistic buffs, then this means that the *Deadeye and the Daredevil have roughly the same DPS without buffs*. Might, Fury, Quickness, Alacrity affect both specs the same. So, logically, if they have the same damage without Might and Quickness, and one spec gives the boons while the other doesn't, then how does that work out in the end?

 

But the reality is that the _result_ of the two classes is that the DD ends up with equal or better damage in practical situations, even if there are less little orange squares on his toolbar as he does so.

 

> Group buffs are the best thing in the game. Those group buffs are the reason why one class is chosen over the other for fractals or raids.

 

But I'm not talking about fractals or raids, I'm talking about PvE, and I don't want anyone to choose me, **I** want to choose me. Besides, DEs still can't pump out enough support to make them competitors in a supporting role, and even if they did, that's a fine _optional_ build, but you should be able to trait away from that option and into a more solo-friendly one.

 

>The biggest weakness to the Daredevil is the fact that it has no group buffs, and is an utterly selfish spec.

 

How is that a weakness when nobody else is around?

 

> > @Ohoni.6057 said:

> > Which is balanced out by having lower auto-attack damage, so again, net neutral.

>

> The Deadeye doesn't have lower auto attack damage. You're pulling things out of thin air again.

 

Have you tried the Daredevil's auto-attack? Not only does it do more damage, but it hits three mobs while doing so.

 

> > @Ohoni.6057 said:

> > Or just keep using auto-attack to outdamage a Deadeye.

>

> Dagger has a stronger auto attack than staff. Before quickness and might. The Daredevil flounders in seconds while the Deadeye maintains competitive DPS, largely because the Daredevil's damage is tied wholly to consuming initiative and dodging.

 

In actual practice, that does not seem to be the case.

 

> > @Ohoni.6057 said:

> > The the Deadeye is better at providing group support, that's great, and that can be ONE option that it has, but it in no way makes up for its solo capabilities. Those need to be great too. Both, not one or the other.

>

> It's solo capabilities are already better than the Daredevil in the majority of circumstances.

 

In actual practice, that does not seem to be the case.

 

Why do you keep asserting things that numerous people are telling you run completely contrary to their experiences with the spec? Is your client accessing a different version of the game than the rest of us?

 

> > @Ohoni.6057 said:

> > I would accept that IF you could swap builds using a button press. Given that instead switching builds is an annoying manual process, I insist that each build be equally good in ALL situations, so that I can pick the one I want to play and leave it completely alone. The only reason to switch between DD and DE should be personal preference, not utility need.

>

> You can with arcDPS. Aside from that, Daredevil and Deadeye run really similar builds. You can swap between the two in 10 seconds, easily.

 

I do not use third party mods because the devs have been "unreliable" in how they treat players that use them. If it's not an officially sanctioned element of the game, it does not count, and for the time being, there is no build swapping in the client itself.

 

[Graeaw.6329]

Ok, let's go with qtfy's PoF benchmark list.

Looking at all builds, there are 5 classes above thief's highest dps build (condi daredevil with perfect venomshare) and 3 classes below it. Do consider that warriors and mesmers provide invaluable utility to raid comps, thus they are much more preferred than any thief build.

Now if we look at thief power builds, EVERY SINGLE CLASS has at least one build that beats us, and maybe granting additional utility meanwhile as well.

If we don't specifically go for mightbot deadeye, we provide next to nothing that other classes can't do better or the same with more benefits.

So we have a class that can't provide anything unique without gimping itself, and even then our best dps build is just below average dps.

 

Please leave open world hurr durr I haz pullen 6 mobs me no problem killing arguments outside this discussion....

[Ohoni.6057]

> @Graeaw.6329 said:

> Please leave open world hurr durr I haz pullen 6 mobs me no problem killing arguments outside this discussion....

 

Ok, so long as you leave arguments about raid comps and balance against other classes out of the discussion.

[Graeaw.6329]

> @Ohoni.6057 said:

> > @Graeaw.6329 said:

> > Please leave open world hurr durr I haz pullen 6 mobs me no problem killing arguments outside this discussion....

>

> Ok, so long as you leave arguments about raid comps and balance against other classes out of the discussion.

 

So what do you compare our class against? Mordrem Snipers? I think we still lose lol.

[Justine.6351]

might as well run a hammer herald in pve, at least it has cleave lol.