Narcemus.1348 Posted October 12, 2017 Share Posted October 12, 2017 > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said: > > @Oglaf.1074 said: > > > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said: > > > If you say there is no evidence of these dragons being constructs, the reverse is also true. > > > > Except everyone and their dog knows about dragon corruption being a thing. > > > > As such, in the face of no evidence whatsoever that these simply aren't corrupted dragons, it is the far, faaaar more likely option. > > "Everyone and their dog" should also know that the Elder Dragons are fully capable of corrupting the landscape and making minions out of that. Otherwise branded earth elementals, branded sparks, branded storm elementals, icebrood ice elementals, etc. wouldn't be a thing. If they couldn't, the destroyers and mordrem would be completely different. > > "Everyone and their dog" should also know that dragons are not so common place, or even so rare, that they can be corrupted by the Elder Dragons willy nilly, enough to fill the skies above the Shiverpeaks or above Orr with them. > > "Everyone and their dog" knows that Risen Abominations are made by stitching together parts of corpses, so there's no reason to believe that Tequatl etc. aren't done the same, when we see no living, non-corrupted dragons. > > The strongest evidence for all or most of these dragon lieutenants to not be corrupted dragons is the total and utter lack of non-corrupted dragons. Not to say I disagree, but I somewhat hope that the Tequatl type dragon minions are indeed the corpses of real dragons and turn out to have been the remains of the types of dragons that we see in bone dragon form in the original guild wars. But again, it is a speculative, as we never see any of those dragons living either... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oglaf.1074 Posted October 12, 2017 Author Share Posted October 12, 2017 They could also be some kind of Lich deal they made with Zhaitan. Y'know, willingly turning yourself into undead being for immortality and powers? And unlike the common "zombie" you also retain your personality and free will and all that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fluffball.8307 Posted October 12, 2017 Share Posted October 12, 2017 I don't think we've seen a dragon minion with free will. Some slyvari are able to retain it via their and the dream's strength, but if they stop fighting for their free will they become minions that do as told. Many minions are not mindless and have certain freedoms to execute orders while reacting creatively, but I don't think we've seen an example of a "rogue" dragon minion that can do whatever it wants. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oglaf.1074 Posted October 12, 2017 Author Share Posted October 12, 2017 If they willingly agreed to serve the Elder Dragons in return for powers and whatnot, how could we tell the difference? :D But yeah, I dunno. I just think there is more to the relationship with the Elder Dragons and actual Dragons in comparison to other minions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fluffball.8307 Posted October 12, 2017 Share Posted October 12, 2017 I'm just going on how Glint's career as a dragon minion went. She didn't have free will. Who knows, maybe Zhatain liked a more casual setting and wanted to be seen a boss _and_ a friend. Edit: I am not currently remembering any of the pale tree lore when she was a minion, but I seem to recall she had a similar sort of experience to Glint. Either that or I just put Glint's experience on her since I had no other info. I'm sure someone will chime in with PT lore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oglaf.1074 Posted October 12, 2017 Author Share Posted October 12, 2017 Well, we do see that some minions are more or less acting as free-will agents on the Elder Dragon's behalf. I mean, they often refer to their Elder Dragon as "my master" which would imply a certain degree of self-identity. They're not brain-washed robots. When we fight any of the Dragons (Shatterer, Teqatl or Claw) they do seem to possess the ability to summon and command the lower ranks of minions, which does seem to indicate a higher rank in whatever heirarchy there may be as well as more freedom granted to them in the service of their Elder Dragon. It might simply be that these Dragons are such powerful servants in their own right, that having them being mindless thralls like the rank and file would've simply been wasting their potential? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fluffball.8307 Posted October 12, 2017 Share Posted October 12, 2017 Oh there are absolutely minions with personality and intelligence. The personal story highlights that several times. I think free-will is a huge leap from that, though. If you're saying the Orr dragons are given certain liberities to react creatively on a battlefield, I think that's very likely. For them to be able to do whatever they want, like stage a mutiny, I would argue is basically impossible without outside help, as is the case with "our" crystal dragons and the slyvari. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oglaf.1074 Posted October 12, 2017 Author Share Posted October 12, 2017 > @Fluffball.8307 said: > Oh there are absolutely minions with personality and intelligence. The personal story highlights that several times. I think free-will is a huge leap from that, though. Well, free will does not mean immunity to influence. Far from it. We humans supposedly have free will and we see time and time again how we can appear to be brainwashed by ideologies and such. ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fluffball.8307 Posted October 12, 2017 Share Posted October 12, 2017 Glint and the chicken needed a ritual to free them though, it's more than elder dragons being particularly persuasive. Edit: And the little Vlast lore we get might even be referenced. He didn't get the ideal experience with humanity the way Glint did. I don't think he even liked non-dragons or perhaps even respected them, but he never wanted to become a dragon minion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oglaf.1074 Posted October 12, 2017 Author Share Posted October 12, 2017 Oh of course. Only the Sons actually get persuaded to "join" Jormag (and they do so under the false idea that he is nature spirit). Just saying that free will and being "enchanted" to the service of an Elder Dragon are not mutually exclusive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Konig Des Todes.2086 Posted October 12, 2017 Share Posted October 12, 2017 > @Oglaf.1074 said: > Just saying that free will and being "enchanted" to the service of an Elder Dragon are not mutually exclusive. They actually are. If you're being "enchanted" into service, then you can no longer go at any point and say "you know what, I'd rather not serve Zhaitan". You are forever bound to never even consider the possibility of not serving Zhaitan. Even Elonians can decide not to revere Joko. Even North Koreans can decide to not revere Kim. But no risen anywhere can decide to not follow Zhaitan. That's the difference between willingly serving one, and serving without free will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oglaf.1074 Posted October 12, 2017 Author Share Posted October 12, 2017 Free will is not absolute. Not binary. Free will is NOT the ability to have absolute freedom. A slave forced to do physical labour still has his free will, for example. A Nazi kid in the 1930's could be totally indoctrinated into the nazi ideology still maintain her free will. If you argue that any little slight against your ability to make choices negates your free will, then you'd have to argue that someone getting drunk means losing their free will, also. Zhaitan could theoretically give Teqatl a certain degree of free will and autonomy that is far beyond that of an rank and file Risen whilst still being 110% dedicated to the will of the Elder Dragon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Konig Des Todes.2086 Posted October 12, 2017 Share Posted October 12, 2017 > @Oglaf.1074 said: > Free will is NOT the ability to have absolute freedom. It... actually is. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_will > Free will is the ability to choose between different possible courses of action unimpeded. > A slave forced to do physical labour still has his free will, for example. You're conflating the ability to choose with the ability to follow through with the choice. A slave still has free will, he may chose not to work. But even if he choses to flee, that doesn't mean he can. > Zhaitan could theoretically give Teqatl a certain degree of free will and autonomy that is far beyond that of an rank and file Risen whilst still being 110% dedicated to the will of the Elder Dragon. Dragon champions do not have free will, but they are intelligent. That intelligence gives the dragon champions options for the ability to follow through with the enslaved will. It is described in various interviews that the Elder Dragons' will in dragon minions are fairly generic (Mordremoth and Mordrem are unique in this due to the domain of mind), and as such open to interpretation. Champions are there to make that interpretation for how best to follow the will. But they **MUST** follow that will, and cannot consider not following it. E.g., Zhaitan says conquer Lion's Arch. Blightghast chose how to go about it - he chose to assault Claw Island with a double feint, then send forces to LA proper while sending larger forces to the three Order HQs. E.g., Zhaitan says protect the Artesian Waters. Sovereign Eye of Zhaitan stayed as sentinel there, and when powerful opponents only he could deal with came he turned the minions who would be killed aside to deal with them himself. This is not free will nor is it "a degree of free will". They're still forced to follow the will. Blightghast couldn't say "well, let's not attack Lion's Arch but instead assault Divinity's Reach." He wouldn't even be able to think of "not attack Lion's Arch". That's how enslaved wills tend to work. If Zhaitan said jump, Blightghast wouldn't ask "how high", he'd just jump. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oglaf.1074 Posted October 12, 2017 Author Share Posted October 12, 2017 Your statements are contradictionary. If free will is the ability to have absolute freedom, you cannot argue that a slave still maintains hers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Konig Des Todes.2086 Posted October 12, 2017 Share Posted October 12, 2017 There's no contradiction. Free will and freedom are not the same. Freedom is the ability to physically act as you want. Free will is the ability to chose as you want. A slave - in the traditional sense - has free will but not freedom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
draxynnic.3719 Posted October 13, 2017 Share Posted October 13, 2017 Another way to think of it could be 'freedom of thought'. A slave is free to think and plan whatever they like. They may be physically prevented from acting on those plans, by restraints, guards, walls, or some other means that prevents them from doing a runner or murdering their master. But they can still think, and if given an opportunity, they can act. A dragon minion, however, does not have that freedom of thought. They are simply not capable of thinking "I don't want to serve my master any more" or even "I'm not going to follow that order." They have the ability to choose _how_ they follow an order, but the possibility of disobeying just never crosses their mind. As an example, consider the scenario where, for reasons known to itself, Jormag ordered an icebrood to jump in a fire at dusk and remain there until dawn. A smart icebrood might spend some time before dusk trying to find a means of surviving a night in a fire, but it is not capable of thinking that it actually doesn't want to spend the night in a fireplace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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