c space cowboy.2764 Posted September 2, 2019 Share Posted September 2, 2019 > @"dodgerrule.8739" said: > The difference between 2012 and 2017 was they announced their plans weeks in advanced. Now it’s months in advanced with no filler content Pardon me while I laugh in WvW... Months? :# Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hashberry.4510 Posted September 2, 2019 Share Posted September 2, 2019 Twitter delenda est. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashantara.8731 Posted September 2, 2019 Share Posted September 2, 2019 > @"Burnfall.9573" said: > **+1** > > You Are Not Alone Op > > Answer to your question; **Absolutely Not!!** > > Toxicity in itself does not give a (insult word) about anything other than itself. > > Toxicity [...] Oh, wow. Perhaps it's best to avoid this place until the madness has passed. :s Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gehenna.3625 Posted September 2, 2019 Share Posted September 2, 2019 > @"AlexxxDelta.1806" said: > > @"Gehenna.3625" said: > > The game industry seems to be generally "confused" by what is and what isn't toxic. Toxicity is when you attack people with comments and threats with the purpose of hurting them. What happened is that because there is so much negativity that they have to deal with that they misuse the word "toxicity" and their reasoning seems to be that "as long as it hurts my feelings, it must be toxic". That is not the same thing however and is simply incorrect usage of the term. It's sad also because they are a big part of the reason why there is so much more toxicity these days and they don't seem to get that or perhaps they don't want to get that. With they I mean the game industry in general by the way. > > > > So as long as you are not trying to attack them, particularly personally, with the intent of hurting them out of vengeance or spite, you are not toxic. It may hurt their feelings when you dislike what they do but that doesn't mean you're being toxic. They may experience it as such but that is not your fault. > > > > So avoid direct insults to people. Use ArenaNet as a target rather than any one person. Avoid insults even then and don't let your anger speak more than your sense. It's hard sometimes but you should have the ability to put the brakes on even if occasionally you cross the line accidentally. > > > > For example, I think the announcement yesterday should have been the announcement of a new expansion. It wasn't. I find that unfortunate and I wish it had been the announcement of an expansion because that's what I need to play this game actively again. So the next LS chapter doesn't really hold my interest. It might hurt the developers' feelings that I am not interested in what they are excited about presenting, but I'm the one spending money here so I will say so when they're not giving me what I want from this game. It's not what I want from them and I'm not required to be happy with this just cause they want that. > > > > That's not toxic. However, if I'd come here and raged about how terrible they are and how girl X and guy Y are kitten etc. then it becomes toxic. > > > > I won't say the next chapter sucks for example because I can't know that. I can say that I find that it sucks we're not getting an announcement for a next expansion. And if it happens more often that I don't get what I wish from this game, then yes, I will start feeling they don't care about me as a customer. Especially when I never get any answers, direct or indirect for my concerns. > > > > It's ok to feel the way you do and express it. Just don't make it personal. There are people that work hard to create this content and there are people who make decisions about the direction of the game. It's the decision makers that I have issues with because I don't understand why they make certain decisions and because they don't really explain it and from what they do indicate I get the feeling it's more about what they want rather than what I want. That can upset me. > > > > I've certainly been angry in the past and I still don't like everything that happens but I do try to have boundaries, because it's not about making it personal for me, but my frustrations such as they are, are indeed personal for me. It's just very frustrating when people in general are asking about something over and over again and they just stay silent on the topic. But I still shouldn't make it personal but I do feel I need to express my discontent because the sure way to make sure that nothing change is to stay silent. And that's no good for sure. > > > > Hope that helps. > > I seriously doubt it has anything to do with confusion. We are talking about professionals here. The occasional hate mail existed even before the peak of social media and pros in this industry have been in many rodeos. Now it's just more prominent. That's the difference between confusion and "confusion". Having said that, they're still human beings that exist within their own bubble as it were and I think their bubbles have been shaken. They're professionals in the job they're doing but that doesn't make you a professional at dealing with this much negativity. Make no mistake, it is rough how especially some people just stack on the toxic negativity. Being good at coding or being a manager of some sort doesn't automatically give you elephant skin or something. However, as I said already, the game industry has created this toxicity if not enabled it. Their marketing or pr is directly to blame for a rich feeding ground for toxicity. That is the part they need to learn in my view. You can't keep hyping stuff like this and not get an entitled player base that thinks they deserve everything because you told them essentially they deserve everything. Going back to the Manifesto-video for example, this was a prime example of a pr piece that overpromised. So expectations were set and they were not met. What did ArenaNet do? Act like players were wrong and there was no issue. Later we heard some sounds left and right where they did admit it wasn't their best day but by then the damage was done. It's just one example and the problem is that they seem to believe that by not saying things directly and only implying them, they have plausible deniability. Problem is, it's not plausible and you don't win hearts with a legal stance. So just to be clear. I said "confusion", not confusion. What I mean with that is more akin to cognitive dissonance rather than actual confusion. I think they even convinced themselves with their own pr. But never forget that professionals are not super-humans. They still have emotions and make mistakes. And when they can't admit to mistakes they set themselves up as super-humans. So yeah, then people start expecting them to be more than they really are. And that's another part of why their communication has not served them or us that well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uber.8146 Posted September 2, 2019 Share Posted September 2, 2019 People who have been playing a long time get frustrated because they are getting bored with a game. The game looses the wow factor (no phun intended). Ive dealt with this on other games. If you dont like the climate anymore, its time 2 move. The nostalgic feeling wil never come back. And no flaming intended, they are not depended on your few bucks. Its a waste of good time to even post these things, NOTHING wil change. No single person wil change a business, not even a hundred. (bah i just wasted my time too) :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yann.1946 Posted September 2, 2019 Share Posted September 2, 2019 > @"Gehenna.3625" said: > The game industry seems to be generally "confused" by what is and what isn't toxic. Toxicity is when you attack people with comments and threats with the purpose of hurting them. What happened is that because there is so much negativity that they have to deal with that they misuse the word "toxicity" and their reasoning seems to be that "as long as it hurts my feelings, it must be toxic". That is not the same thing however and is simply incorrect usage of the term. It's sad also because they are a big part of the reason why there is so much more toxicity these days and they don't seem to get that or perhaps they don't want to get that. With they I mean the game industry in general by the way. > > So as long as you are not trying to attack them, particularly personally, with the intent of hurting them out of vengeance or spite, you are not toxic. It may hurt their feelings when you dislike what they do but that doesn't mean you're being toxic. They may experience it as such but that is not your fault. > > So avoid direct insults to people. Use ArenaNet as a target rather than any one person. Avoid insults even then and don't let your anger speak more than your sense. It's hard sometimes but you should have the ability to put the brakes on even if occasionally you cross the line accidentally. > > For example, I think the announcement yesterday should have been the announcement of a new expansion. It wasn't. I find that unfortunate and I wish it had been the announcement of an expansion because that's what I need to play this game actively again. So the next LS chapter doesn't really hold my interest. It might hurt the developers' feelings that I am not interested in what they are excited about presenting, but I'm the one spending money here so I will say so when they're not giving me what I want from this game. It's not what I want from them and I'm not required to be happy with this just cause they want that. > > That's not toxic. However, if I'd come here and raged about how terrible they are and how girl X and guy Y are kitten etc. then it becomes toxic. > > I won't say the next chapter sucks for example because I can't know that. I can say that I find that it sucks we're not getting an announcement for a next expansion. And if it happens more often that I don't get what I wish from this game, then yes, I will start feeling they don't care about me as a customer. Especially when I never get any answers, direct or indirect for my concerns. > > It's ok to feel the way you do and express it. Just don't make it personal. There are people that work hard to create this content and there are people who make decisions about the direction of the game. It's the decision makers that I have issues with because I don't understand why they make certain decisions and because they don't really explain it and from what they do indicate I get the feeling it's more about what they want rather than what I want. That can upset me. > > I've certainly been angry in the past and I still don't like everything that happens but I do try to have boundaries, because it's not about making it personal for me, but my frustrations such as they are, are indeed personal for me. It's just very frustrating when people in general are asking about something over and over again and they just stay silent on the topic. But I still shouldn't make it personal but I do feel I need to express my discontent because the sure way to make sure that nothing change is to stay silent. And that's no good for sure. > > Hope that helps. I have to disagree with a small detail. Namely you can be toxic without wanting to hurt a person. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gehenna.3625 Posted September 2, 2019 Share Posted September 2, 2019 > @"yann.1946" said: > > @"Gehenna.3625" said: > > The game industry seems to be generally "confused" by what is and what isn't toxic. Toxicity is when you attack people with comments and threats with the purpose of hurting them. What happened is that because there is so much negativity that they have to deal with that they misuse the word "toxicity" and their reasoning seems to be that "as long as it hurts my feelings, it must be toxic". That is not the same thing however and is simply incorrect usage of the term. It's sad also because they are a big part of the reason why there is so much more toxicity these days and they don't seem to get that or perhaps they don't want to get that. With they I mean the game industry in general by the way. > > > > So as long as you are not trying to attack them, particularly personally, with the intent of hurting them out of vengeance or spite, you are not toxic. It may hurt their feelings when you dislike what they do but that doesn't mean you're being toxic. They may experience it as such but that is not your fault. > > > > So avoid direct insults to people. Use ArenaNet as a target rather than any one person. Avoid insults even then and don't let your anger speak more than your sense. It's hard sometimes but you should have the ability to put the brakes on even if occasionally you cross the line accidentally. > > > > For example, I think the announcement yesterday should have been the announcement of a new expansion. It wasn't. I find that unfortunate and I wish it had been the announcement of an expansion because that's what I need to play this game actively again. So the next LS chapter doesn't really hold my interest. It might hurt the developers' feelings that I am not interested in what they are excited about presenting, but I'm the one spending money here so I will say so when they're not giving me what I want from this game. It's not what I want from them and I'm not required to be happy with this just cause they want that. > > > > That's not toxic. However, if I'd come here and raged about how terrible they are and how girl X and guy Y are kitten etc. then it becomes toxic. > > > > I won't say the next chapter sucks for example because I can't know that. I can say that I find that it sucks we're not getting an announcement for a next expansion. And if it happens more often that I don't get what I wish from this game, then yes, I will start feeling they don't care about me as a customer. Especially when I never get any answers, direct or indirect for my concerns. > > > > It's ok to feel the way you do and express it. Just don't make it personal. There are people that work hard to create this content and there are people who make decisions about the direction of the game. It's the decision makers that I have issues with because I don't understand why they make certain decisions and because they don't really explain it and from what they do indicate I get the feeling it's more about what they want rather than what I want. That can upset me. > > > > I've certainly been angry in the past and I still don't like everything that happens but I do try to have boundaries, because it's not about making it personal for me, but my frustrations such as they are, are indeed personal for me. It's just very frustrating when people in general are asking about something over and over again and they just stay silent on the topic. But I still shouldn't make it personal but I do feel I need to express my discontent because the sure way to make sure that nothing change is to stay silent. And that's no good for sure. > > > > Hope that helps. > > I have to disagree with a small detail. Namely you can be toxic without wanting to hurt a person. I'm torn on that. I guess I find it hard to understand why you would use toxic language without the intent to hurt someone. When you start name calling, swearing at a person directly or threatening them or their loved ones, I just don't see how you wouldn't at least somewhere want to hurt that person. But perhaps you can clarify your point on that. It might just be a difference of opinion on what toxic is, I suppose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yann.1946 Posted September 2, 2019 Share Posted September 2, 2019 > @"Gehenna.3625" said: > > @"yann.1946" said: > > > @"Gehenna.3625" said: > > > The game industry seems to be generally "confused" by what is and what isn't toxic. Toxicity is when you attack people with comments and threats with the purpose of hurting them. What happened is that because there is so much negativity that they have to deal with that they misuse the word "toxicity" and their reasoning seems to be that "as long as it hurts my feelings, it must be toxic". That is not the same thing however and is simply incorrect usage of the term. It's sad also because they are a big part of the reason why there is so much more toxicity these days and they don't seem to get that or perhaps they don't want to get that. With they I mean the game industry in general by the way. > > > > > > So as long as you are not trying to attack them, particularly personally, with the intent of hurting them out of vengeance or spite, you are not toxic. It may hurt their feelings when you dislike what they do but that doesn't mean you're being toxic. They may experience it as such but that is not your fault. > > > > > > So avoid direct insults to people. Use ArenaNet as a target rather than any one person. Avoid insults even then and don't let your anger speak more than your sense. It's hard sometimes but you should have the ability to put the brakes on even if occasionally you cross the line accidentally. > > > > > > For example, I think the announcement yesterday should have been the announcement of a new expansion. It wasn't. I find that unfortunate and I wish it had been the announcement of an expansion because that's what I need to play this game actively again. So the next LS chapter doesn't really hold my interest. It might hurt the developers' feelings that I am not interested in what they are excited about presenting, but I'm the one spending money here so I will say so when they're not giving me what I want from this game. It's not what I want from them and I'm not required to be happy with this just cause they want that. > > > > > > That's not toxic. However, if I'd come here and raged about how terrible they are and how girl X and guy Y are kitten etc. then it becomes toxic. > > > > > > I won't say the next chapter sucks for example because I can't know that. I can say that I find that it sucks we're not getting an announcement for a next expansion. And if it happens more often that I don't get what I wish from this game, then yes, I will start feeling they don't care about me as a customer. Especially when I never get any answers, direct or indirect for my concerns. > > > > > > It's ok to feel the way you do and express it. Just don't make it personal. There are people that work hard to create this content and there are people who make decisions about the direction of the game. It's the decision makers that I have issues with because I don't understand why they make certain decisions and because they don't really explain it and from what they do indicate I get the feeling it's more about what they want rather than what I want. That can upset me. > > > > > > I've certainly been angry in the past and I still don't like everything that happens but I do try to have boundaries, because it's not about making it personal for me, but my frustrations such as they are, are indeed personal for me. It's just very frustrating when people in general are asking about something over and over again and they just stay silent on the topic. But I still shouldn't make it personal but I do feel I need to express my discontent because the sure way to make sure that nothing change is to stay silent. And that's no good for sure. > > > > > > Hope that helps. > > > > I have to disagree with a small detail. Namely you can be toxic without wanting to hurt a person. > I'm torn on that. I guess I find it hard to understand why you would use toxic language without the intent to hurt someone. When you start name calling, swearing at a person directly or threatening them or their loved ones, I just don't see how you wouldn't at least somewhere want to hurt that person. But perhaps you can clarify your point on that. It might just be a difference of opinion on what toxic is, I suppose. > I think the mayor difference for me is that what I consider hurtful you might not and vice versa. If you live in an environment where everyone swears and name calls constantly you might not find that offensive. While most other people will. For example if I ask you pick the posts which are meant to hurt the devs. Somebody else will most likely gave picked something else. It is not unreasonable to assume some of these didn't intend to hurt the devs. Some would probably have been venting without a target for example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gehenna.3625 Posted September 2, 2019 Share Posted September 2, 2019 > @"yann.1946" said: > > @"Gehenna.3625" said: > > > @"yann.1946" said: > > > > @"Gehenna.3625" said: > > > > The game industry seems to be generally "confused" by what is and what isn't toxic. Toxicity is when you attack people with comments and threats with the purpose of hurting them. What happened is that because there is so much negativity that they have to deal with that they misuse the word "toxicity" and their reasoning seems to be that "as long as it hurts my feelings, it must be toxic". That is not the same thing however and is simply incorrect usage of the term. It's sad also because they are a big part of the reason why there is so much more toxicity these days and they don't seem to get that or perhaps they don't want to get that. With they I mean the game industry in general by the way. > > > > > > > > So as long as you are not trying to attack them, particularly personally, with the intent of hurting them out of vengeance or spite, you are not toxic. It may hurt their feelings when you dislike what they do but that doesn't mean you're being toxic. They may experience it as such but that is not your fault. > > > > > > > > So avoid direct insults to people. Use ArenaNet as a target rather than any one person. Avoid insults even then and don't let your anger speak more than your sense. It's hard sometimes but you should have the ability to put the brakes on even if occasionally you cross the line accidentally. > > > > > > > > For example, I think the announcement yesterday should have been the announcement of a new expansion. It wasn't. I find that unfortunate and I wish it had been the announcement of an expansion because that's what I need to play this game actively again. So the next LS chapter doesn't really hold my interest. It might hurt the developers' feelings that I am not interested in what they are excited about presenting, but I'm the one spending money here so I will say so when they're not giving me what I want from this game. It's not what I want from them and I'm not required to be happy with this just cause they want that. > > > > > > > > That's not toxic. However, if I'd come here and raged about how terrible they are and how girl X and guy Y are kitten etc. then it becomes toxic. > > > > > > > > I won't say the next chapter sucks for example because I can't know that. I can say that I find that it sucks we're not getting an announcement for a next expansion. And if it happens more often that I don't get what I wish from this game, then yes, I will start feeling they don't care about me as a customer. Especially when I never get any answers, direct or indirect for my concerns. > > > > > > > > It's ok to feel the way you do and express it. Just don't make it personal. There are people that work hard to create this content and there are people who make decisions about the direction of the game. It's the decision makers that I have issues with because I don't understand why they make certain decisions and because they don't really explain it and from what they do indicate I get the feeling it's more about what they want rather than what I want. That can upset me. > > > > > > > > I've certainly been angry in the past and I still don't like everything that happens but I do try to have boundaries, because it's not about making it personal for me, but my frustrations such as they are, are indeed personal for me. It's just very frustrating when people in general are asking about something over and over again and they just stay silent on the topic. But I still shouldn't make it personal but I do feel I need to express my discontent because the sure way to make sure that nothing change is to stay silent. And that's no good for sure. > > > > > > > > Hope that helps. > > > > > > I have to disagree with a small detail. Namely you can be toxic without wanting to hurt a person. > > I'm torn on that. I guess I find it hard to understand why you would use toxic language without the intent to hurt someone. When you start name calling, swearing at a person directly or threatening them or their loved ones, I just don't see how you wouldn't at least somewhere want to hurt that person. But perhaps you can clarify your point on that. It might just be a difference of opinion on what toxic is, I suppose. > > > > I think the mayor difference for me is that what I consider hurtful you might not and vice versa. > > If you live in an environment where everyone swears and name calls constantly you might not find that offensive. While most other people will. > > For example if I ask you pick the posts which are meant to hurt the devs. Somebody else will most likely gave picked something else. It is not unreasonable to assume some of these didn't intend to hurt the devs. > > Some would probably have been venting without a target for example. Well, then we are in disagreement (and that's fine). My point is that feeling offended or hurt is neither the measure nor the definition of toxicity. That's reasoning the wrong way around. Just because you feel something's offensive doesn't make it toxic in other words. If you go by that reasoning then yeah, you can never criticize anything anymore. To me toxicity is about the method and intent. It doesn't matter to me if it's deliberate or because you just can't control your emotions but in the end it's not toxic to me unless it's a direct attack with specific methods. These methods are things like name calling, threats and such. When someone says "I f**king hate it when ArenaNet do this" to me that's not toxic. Some people might be offended by the f-word but that's a personal preference towards language based on various things. So some may consider it offensive but it's not toxic. Saying "ArenaNet are all a bunch of f**king a**holes" (sorry for the example), is both offensive and toxic because it's name calling and an attack on people. The difference between offensive and toxic is essential to me because what's offensive is very subjective and freedom of speech does require the right to offend, but not to be toxic. So feel free to still disagree on the point but hopefully you can see where I stand on this and why :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yann.1946 Posted September 2, 2019 Share Posted September 2, 2019 > @"Gehenna.3625" said: > > @"yann.1946" said: > > > @"Gehenna.3625" said: > > > > @"yann.1946" said: > > > > > @"Gehenna.3625" said: > > > > > The game industry seems to be generally "confused" by what is and what isn't toxic. Toxicity is when you attack people with comments and threats with the purpose of hurting them. What happened is that because there is so much negativity that they have to deal with that they misuse the word "toxicity" and their reasoning seems to be that "as long as it hurts my feelings, it must be toxic". That is not the same thing however and is simply incorrect usage of the term. It's sad also because they are a big part of the reason why there is so much more toxicity these days and they don't seem to get that or perhaps they don't want to get that. With they I mean the game industry in general by the way. > > > > > > > > > > So as long as you are not trying to attack them, particularly personally, with the intent of hurting them out of vengeance or spite, you are not toxic. It may hurt their feelings when you dislike what they do but that doesn't mean you're being toxic. They may experience it as such but that is not your fault. > > > > > > > > > > So avoid direct insults to people. Use ArenaNet as a target rather than any one person. Avoid insults even then and don't let your anger speak more than your sense. It's hard sometimes but you should have the ability to put the brakes on even if occasionally you cross the line accidentally. > > > > > > > > > > For example, I think the announcement yesterday should have been the announcement of a new expansion. It wasn't. I find that unfortunate and I wish it had been the announcement of an expansion because that's what I need to play this game actively again. So the next LS chapter doesn't really hold my interest. It might hurt the developers' feelings that I am not interested in what they are excited about presenting, but I'm the one spending money here so I will say so when they're not giving me what I want from this game. It's not what I want from them and I'm not required to be happy with this just cause they want that. > > > > > > > > > > That's not toxic. However, if I'd come here and raged about how terrible they are and how girl X and guy Y are kitten etc. then it becomes toxic. > > > > > > > > > > I won't say the next chapter sucks for example because I can't know that. I can say that I find that it sucks we're not getting an announcement for a next expansion. And if it happens more often that I don't get what I wish from this game, then yes, I will start feeling they don't care about me as a customer. Especially when I never get any answers, direct or indirect for my concerns. > > > > > > > > > > It's ok to feel the way you do and express it. Just don't make it personal. There are people that work hard to create this content and there are people who make decisions about the direction of the game. It's the decision makers that I have issues with because I don't understand why they make certain decisions and because they don't really explain it and from what they do indicate I get the feeling it's more about what they want rather than what I want. That can upset me. > > > > > > > > > > I've certainly been angry in the past and I still don't like everything that happens but I do try to have boundaries, because it's not about making it personal for me, but my frustrations such as they are, are indeed personal for me. It's just very frustrating when people in general are asking about something over and over again and they just stay silent on the topic. But I still shouldn't make it personal but I do feel I need to express my discontent because the sure way to make sure that nothing change is to stay silent. And that's no good for sure. > > > > > > > > > > Hope that helps. > > > > > > > > I have to disagree with a small detail. Namely you can be toxic without wanting to hurt a person. > > > I'm torn on that. I guess I find it hard to understand why you would use toxic language without the intent to hurt someone. When you start name calling, swearing at a person directly or threatening them or their loved ones, I just don't see how you wouldn't at least somewhere want to hurt that person. But perhaps you can clarify your point on that. It might just be a difference of opinion on what toxic is, I suppose. > > > > > > > I think the mayor difference for me is that what I consider hurtful you might not and vice versa. > > > > If you live in an environment where everyone swears and name calls constantly you might not find that offensive. While most other people will. > > > > For example if I ask you pick the posts which are meant to hurt the devs. Somebody else will most likely gave picked something else. It is not unreasonable to assume some of these didn't intend to hurt the devs. > > > > Some would probably have been venting without a target for example. > Well, then we are in disagreement (and that's fine). My point is that feeling offended or hurt is neither the measure nor the definition of toxicity. That's reasoning the wrong way around. Just because you feel something's offensive doesn't make it toxic in other words. If you go by that reasoning then yeah, you can never criticize anything anymore. > > To me toxicity is about the method and intent. It doesn't matter to me if it's deliberate or because you just can't control your emotions but in the end it's not toxic to me unless it's a direct attack with specific methods. These methods are things like name calling, threats and such. When someone says "I f**king hate it when ArenaNet do this" to me that's not toxic. Some people might be offended by the f-word but that's a personal preference towards language based on various things. So some may consider it offensive but it's not toxic. Saying "ArenaNet are all a bunch of f**king a**holes" (sorry for the example), is both offensive and toxic because it's name calling and an attack on people. The difference between offensive and toxic is essential to me because what's offensive is very subjective and freedom of speech does require the right to offend, but not to be toxic. > > So feel free to still disagree on the point but hopefully you can see where I stand on this and why :) We'll Iagree that not all offensive things are toxic. But to me it seems that you can't call most things toxic in your definition because you don't know the intent of the person. In my head it is a two way street. You can only be offended when you feel offended. And toxic is such a fluid word it hold almost no meaning anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gehenna.3625 Posted September 2, 2019 Share Posted September 2, 2019 > @"yann.1946" said: > > @"Gehenna.3625" said: > > > @"yann.1946" said: > > > > @"Gehenna.3625" said: > > > > > @"yann.1946" said: > > > > > > @"Gehenna.3625" said: > > > > > > The game industry seems to be generally "confused" by what is and what isn't toxic. Toxicity is when you attack people with comments and threats with the purpose of hurting them. What happened is that because there is so much negativity that they have to deal with that they misuse the word "toxicity" and their reasoning seems to be that "as long as it hurts my feelings, it must be toxic". That is not the same thing however and is simply incorrect usage of the term. It's sad also because they are a big part of the reason why there is so much more toxicity these days and they don't seem to get that or perhaps they don't want to get that. With they I mean the game industry in general by the way. > > > > > > > > > > > > So as long as you are not trying to attack them, particularly personally, with the intent of hurting them out of vengeance or spite, you are not toxic. It may hurt their feelings when you dislike what they do but that doesn't mean you're being toxic. They may experience it as such but that is not your fault. > > > > > > > > > > > > So avoid direct insults to people. Use ArenaNet as a target rather than any one person. Avoid insults even then and don't let your anger speak more than your sense. It's hard sometimes but you should have the ability to put the brakes on even if occasionally you cross the line accidentally. > > > > > > > > > > > > For example, I think the announcement yesterday should have been the announcement of a new expansion. It wasn't. I find that unfortunate and I wish it had been the announcement of an expansion because that's what I need to play this game actively again. So the next LS chapter doesn't really hold my interest. It might hurt the developers' feelings that I am not interested in what they are excited about presenting, but I'm the one spending money here so I will say so when they're not giving me what I want from this game. It's not what I want from them and I'm not required to be happy with this just cause they want that. > > > > > > > > > > > > That's not toxic. However, if I'd come here and raged about how terrible they are and how girl X and guy Y are kitten etc. then it becomes toxic. > > > > > > > > > > > > I won't say the next chapter sucks for example because I can't know that. I can say that I find that it sucks we're not getting an announcement for a next expansion. And if it happens more often that I don't get what I wish from this game, then yes, I will start feeling they don't care about me as a customer. Especially when I never get any answers, direct or indirect for my concerns. > > > > > > > > > > > > It's ok to feel the way you do and express it. Just don't make it personal. There are people that work hard to create this content and there are people who make decisions about the direction of the game. It's the decision makers that I have issues with because I don't understand why they make certain decisions and because they don't really explain it and from what they do indicate I get the feeling it's more about what they want rather than what I want. That can upset me. > > > > > > > > > > > > I've certainly been angry in the past and I still don't like everything that happens but I do try to have boundaries, because it's not about making it personal for me, but my frustrations such as they are, are indeed personal for me. It's just very frustrating when people in general are asking about something over and over again and they just stay silent on the topic. But I still shouldn't make it personal but I do feel I need to express my discontent because the sure way to make sure that nothing change is to stay silent. And that's no good for sure. > > > > > > > > > > > > Hope that helps. > > > > > > > > > > I have to disagree with a small detail. Namely you can be toxic without wanting to hurt a person. > > > > I'm torn on that. I guess I find it hard to understand why you would use toxic language without the intent to hurt someone. When you start name calling, swearing at a person directly or threatening them or their loved ones, I just don't see how you wouldn't at least somewhere want to hurt that person. But perhaps you can clarify your point on that. It might just be a difference of opinion on what toxic is, I suppose. > > > > > > > > > > I think the mayor difference for me is that what I consider hurtful you might not and vice versa. > > > > > > If you live in an environment where everyone swears and name calls constantly you might not find that offensive. While most other people will. > > > > > > For example if I ask you pick the posts which are meant to hurt the devs. Somebody else will most likely gave picked something else. It is not unreasonable to assume some of these didn't intend to hurt the devs. > > > > > > Some would probably have been venting without a target for example. > > Well, then we are in disagreement (and that's fine). My point is that feeling offended or hurt is neither the measure nor the definition of toxicity. That's reasoning the wrong way around. Just because you feel something's offensive doesn't make it toxic in other words. If you go by that reasoning then yeah, you can never criticize anything anymore. > > > > To me toxicity is about the method and intent. It doesn't matter to me if it's deliberate or because you just can't control your emotions but in the end it's not toxic to me unless it's a direct attack with specific methods. These methods are things like name calling, threats and such. When someone says "I f**king hate it when ArenaNet do this" to me that's not toxic. Some people might be offended by the f-word but that's a personal preference towards language based on various things. So some may consider it offensive but it's not toxic. Saying "ArenaNet are all a bunch of f**king a**holes" (sorry for the example), is both offensive and toxic because it's name calling and an attack on people. The difference between offensive and toxic is essential to me because what's offensive is very subjective and freedom of speech does require the right to offend, but not to be toxic. > > > > So feel free to still disagree on the point but hopefully you can see where I stand on this and why :) > > We'll Iagree that not all offensive things are toxic. But to me it seems that you can't call most things toxic in your definition because you don't know the intent of the person. > In my head it is a two way street. > > You can only be offended when you feel offended. And toxic is such a fluid word it hold almost no meaning anyway. It is difficult to define so that's why I try to be clear about my definitions because I know not everybody will have the same. As for intent, you're right, you can't always know but then my stance is still that when you use certain methods, there has to be at least some intent in there or you wouldn't go that far. And that's also why my definition is as strict as it is. But there you have it. I think we do agree that, whatever the names given to it, it's just not on to make vicious personal attacks and threats to people. Particularly over a video game :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trise.2865 Posted September 3, 2019 Share Posted September 3, 2019 > @"Danikat.8537" said: > I've not been following the news in any detail but PAX has kicked off a lot of awareness of how certain people in the games industry treat those they're in positions of power over (often, but not always, women and minorities) and that's lead to a lot of discussion and repercussions and it seems that's what Rubi was talking about, nothing to do with the GW2 announcement. Did you seriously take a plea for sanity against mob mentality bullying and abuse that is so sickeningly common on the internet and make it about industry sexism? Way to pass the buck there... I know both are very serious problems. I'm not saying they aren't. But one of those is explicitly *our fault*. Us. All of us. There is no "they", there is no "them", just us. We have to take responsibility for that, because this is something we can actually, actively change. The other thing... all we can do is support the victims and shine lights on corruption. Any more than that we make the situation worse. "Poisoning the well", destroying everything as long as someone presumably bad goes down with it... but maybe, once we've stopped squabbling among ourselves and trying to destroy the things we love and/or mildly dislike, maybe we can do something about that too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danikat.8537 Posted September 3, 2019 Share Posted September 3, 2019 > @"Trise.2865" said: > > @"Danikat.8537" said: > > I've not been following the news in any detail but PAX has kicked off a lot of awareness of how certain people in the games industry treat those they're in positions of power over (often, but not always, women and minorities) and that's lead to a lot of discussion and repercussions and it seems that's what Rubi was talking about, nothing to do with the GW2 announcement. > > Did you seriously take a plea for sanity against mob mentality bullying and abuse that is so sickeningly common on the internet and make it about industry sexism? Way to pass the buck there... > > I know both are very serious problems. I'm not saying they aren't. But one of those is explicitly *our fault*. Us. All of us. There is no "they", there is no "them", just us. We have to take responsibility for that, because this is something we can actually, actively change. The other thing... all we can do is support the victims and shine lights on corruption. Any more than that we make the situation worse. "Poisoning the well", destroying everything as long as someone presumably bad goes down with it... but maybe, once we've stopped squabbling among ourselves and trying to destroy the things we love and/or mildly dislike, maybe we can do something about that too. I didn't do anything. _Rubi_ had been tweeting about sexism, realised people were interpreting her tweets as being about the reaction to the GW2 announcement and clarified which she was talking about. I was just passing on the message after seeing it on Twitter. If you want to tell her that she misunderstood which issue she was writing about you're welcome to do so, but you'll have to tell her, not me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben K.6238 Posted September 3, 2019 Share Posted September 3, 2019 > @"Hofulu.7325" said: > CLARIFY: By not respected I mean by Management and Advertising. You know who NEVER logs in to actually see whats going on? Anyone from Management and Advertising. There's a bit of a wall of text below, so I haven't seen the whole thing, but this is not accurate. It's possible that many, or most of ANet staff involved in management and marketing do not actively play the game. I don't know all of them so I can't confirm that. But I do know that the number who are active is not zero. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlexxxDelta.1806 Posted September 3, 2019 Share Posted September 3, 2019 > @"Trise.2865" said: > > @"Danikat.8537" said: > > I've not been following the news in any detail but PAX has kicked off a lot of awareness of how certain people in the games industry treat those they're in positions of power over (often, but not always, women and minorities) and that's lead to a lot of discussion and repercussions and it seems that's what Rubi was talking about, nothing to do with the GW2 announcement. > > Did you seriously take a plea for sanity against mob mentality bullying and abuse that is so sickeningly common on the internet and make it about industry sexism? Way to pass the buck there... > > I know both are very serious problems. I'm not saying they aren't. But one of those is explicitly *our fault*. Us. All of us. There is no "they", there is no "them", just us. We have to take responsibility for that, because this is something we can actually, actively change. The other thing... all we can do is support the victims and shine lights on corruption. Any more than that we make the situation worse. "Poisoning the well", destroying everything as long as someone presumably bad goes down with it... but maybe, once we've stopped squabbling among ourselves and trying to destroy the things we love and/or mildly dislike, maybe we can do something about that too. "Our fault"? "We"? There is no "we". I certainly feel no need to be bundled together with some keyboard warrior who is resorting to personal insults or even threats to devs because they didn't like a game's content patch. I feel no obligation to take responsibility about any random idiot's actions either, just because I may "mildly dislike" the same thing they did. There is no collective culpability in things like these and I find attempts to equate negative feedback with toxic/abusive behavior suspicious at best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XatraZaytrax.2601 Posted September 3, 2019 Share Posted September 3, 2019 There are very few reputable businesses that I would expect to make promise about products they don't have on hand. Once they say we will have x on y date, and can't follow through, their customers would be up in arms. If they push to meet that deadline and put out a subpar product, they risk losing more than saying nothing at all. Even that sandwich maker who ran out of that x meat can't tell you when it will be restocked. He has a good guess, but if his supplier doesn't come through or that meat isn't up to standard, then he will be accused of misleading a consumer. The fact that it's still on the menu should tell you all you need to know. They plan on serving that sandwich once it comes in. Do you really expect Arby's to remove all roast beef sandwiches from their menu when they run out (which has happened more than once at my local Arby's). That would be a ridiculous expectation. As for Anet not being involved in the game in a boots on the ground way, you should have been in SOS in WvW, when their flag was flying on SM. My only disappoint was that it didn't come with a gift shop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trise.2865 Posted September 3, 2019 Share Posted September 3, 2019 > @"AlexxxDelta.1806" said: > > @"Trise.2865" said: > > > @"Danikat.8537" said: > > > I've not been following the news in any detail but PAX has kicked off a lot of awareness of how certain people in the games industry treat those they're in positions of power over (often, but not always, women and minorities) and that's lead to a lot of discussion and repercussions and it seems that's what Rubi was talking about, nothing to do with the GW2 announcement. > > > > Did you seriously take a plea for sanity against mob mentality bullying and abuse that is so sickeningly common on the internet and make it about industry sexism? Way to pass the buck there... > > > > I know both are very serious problems. I'm not saying they aren't. But one of those is explicitly *our fault*. Us. All of us. There is no "they", there is no "them", just us. We have to take responsibility for that, because this is something we can actually, actively change. The other thing... all we can do is support the victims and shine lights on corruption. Any more than that we make the situation worse. "Poisoning the well", destroying everything as long as someone presumably bad goes down with it... but maybe, once we've stopped squabbling among ourselves and trying to destroy the things we love and/or mildly dislike, maybe we can do something about that too. > > "Our fault"? "We"? > > There is no "we". I certainly feel no need to be bundled together with some keyboard warrior who is resorting to personal insults or even threats to devs because they didn't like a game's content patch. I feel no obligation to take responsibility about any random idiot's actions either, just because I may "mildly dislike" the same thing they did. > > There is no collective culpability in things like these and I find attempts to equate negative feedback with toxic/abusive behavior suspicious at best. That's the problem. Everybody keeps saying "not my problem", and nothing changes. You want change, don't you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acheron.4731 Posted September 3, 2019 Share Posted September 3, 2019 Wow, this thread got gutted. To clarify...RB comments were CLEARLY not about sexism when they popped up....they may have conveniently been shifted there...but it was in fact against the community reaction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlexxxDelta.1806 Posted September 3, 2019 Share Posted September 3, 2019 > @"Trise.2865" said: > > @"AlexxxDelta.1806" said: > > > @"Trise.2865" said: > > > > @"Danikat.8537" said: > > > > I've not been following the news in any detail but PAX has kicked off a lot of awareness of how certain people in the games industry treat those they're in positions of power over (often, but not always, women and minorities) and that's lead to a lot of discussion and repercussions and it seems that's what Rubi was talking about, nothing to do with the GW2 announcement. > > > > > > Did you seriously take a plea for sanity against mob mentality bullying and abuse that is so sickeningly common on the internet and make it about industry sexism? Way to pass the buck there... > > > > > > I know both are very serious problems. I'm not saying they aren't. But one of those is explicitly *our fault*. Us. All of us. There is no "they", there is no "them", just us. We have to take responsibility for that, because this is something we can actually, actively change. The other thing... all we can do is support the victims and shine lights on corruption. Any more than that we make the situation worse. "Poisoning the well", destroying everything as long as someone presumably bad goes down with it... but maybe, once we've stopped squabbling among ourselves and trying to destroy the things we love and/or mildly dislike, maybe we can do something about that too. > > > > "Our fault"? "We"? > > > > There is no "we". I certainly feel no need to be bundled together with some keyboard warrior who is resorting to personal insults or even threats to devs because they didn't like a game's content patch. I feel no obligation to take responsibility about any random idiot's actions either, just because I may "mildly dislike" the same thing they did. > > > > There is no collective culpability in things like these and I find attempts to equate negative feedback with toxic/abusive behavior suspicious at best. > > That's the problem. Everybody keeps saying "not my problem", and nothing changes. You want change, don't you? I would like to "change" misguided fools who think personal insults on simple employees could somehow prove a point. But I can only point at the absurdity of it. If the supposed "solution" is to refrain from any negative feedback on the chance it might enable those types to do what they do, then sorry I'm not buying. Sounds too much like censorship to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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