shadowpass.4236 Posted September 29, 2019 Author Share Posted September 29, 2019 > @"Nilson.9865" said: > Didn't mention cast time. Ez to interupt by anything. > **TS**: mantras OP > **Arc Divider**: ~~spinning~~ rolling on the floor laughing I'm going to be uploading several games I recorded yesterday playing mantra mesmer on EU with 6x my normal ping (wins AND losses, I show the game history every match as well). I want you to count how many times my mantras get interrupted and watch the many different ways I was able to secure the channels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonidrex.5649 Posted October 19, 2019 Share Posted October 19, 2019 @"shadowpass.4236" immagine whinging about mesmer sword auto chain as a RANGER main, while this exists https://imgur.com/gallery/6qqQh54 P.S thats from TODAY only :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vicariuz.1605 Posted October 20, 2019 Share Posted October 20, 2019 There's really no conversation to be had, OP is complaining about mantras while killing people with GS 2 and Mind Wrack (which are not mantras). While I did not watch every single video I watched most, and from all the kills on "good" players not a single time was it due to the use of a mantra; and not a single time was it without the "good" player running on cds from a different fight they were in. The most this core mantra build brought to the table was Mass Invis. over 10k mes games played btw. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonidrex.5649 Posted October 20, 2019 Share Posted October 20, 2019 > @"Vicariuz.1605" said: > There's really no conversation to be had, OP is complaining about mantras while killing people with GS 2 and Mind Wrack (which are not mantras). > > While I did not watch every single video I watched most, and from all the kills on "good" players not a single time was it due to the use of a mantra; and not a single time was it without the "good" player running on cds from a different fight they were in. > > The most this core mantra build brought to the table was Mass Invis. > > over 10k mes games played btw. mantras are big part of the burst too. daze mantra procs 5 vulnerability, pain mantra does the same. it also procs shatter damage trat, and crit damage trait. those are BIG modifiers, mantras themself dont deal that much damage byt they do increase dmg from shatter and gs2 by alot. without mantra you dont get 10 vulnerability stacs -> about 15% dmg. mental anguish procs at 10% -> ( could be at 20% if someone doesnt react ) superiority complex procs at 15% bonus instead of 25% ( due to daze ) untill someone is at 50% hp or lower. mind spike also deals damage, the sooner you bring someone under 75% hp, the sooner fury trait procs, and the sooner you get increased chance to crit, without crit this build deals almost no damage. landing gs2+f1 doesnt deal all that much dmg tbh, expecially since most of tis damage comes from 220% crit modifier combined with 25% from superiority comples and this build 46% crit chance. it is really hit or miss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bravan.3876 Posted October 20, 2019 Share Posted October 20, 2019 > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > @"shadowpass.4236" immagine whinging about mesmer sword auto chain as a RANGER main, while this exists > https://imgur.com/gallery/6qqQh54 > > P.S thats from TODAY only :D Not sure if it was a good idea to pump this nonsense thread once again to talk to a banned player known for being unreasonable und deconstructive to show him once again that he is not right or just hypocrite with most he says... but whatever. Did you watch mATs in EU? Misha was playing Core PU Mesmer but he ran it without Mantra of Distraction, what i have seen before a lot in EU. It makes sense because of the reasons i mentioned already: Mantra of Distraction is not needed for the oneshot. Everything Mantra of Distraction adds to the combo you get form f3, just that f3 stuns in addition and not only daze. And this build is meant to just hit the burts and then run (maybe cast some phantasm as follow up pressure before), using an additional stealth skill (gives additional boons, another stunbreak and disengage tool) instead Mantra of Distraction makes much more sense in particular when you run vs decent teams know what to focus, means the Mesmer cannot freecast all time and recharge 5 seconds for free. Also recharging 2 Mantras instead of only one all the time is a lot of downtime the Mesmer can't rly do something else and need to cover like 5 secs of recharge makes him very vulnerable or makes him need to cover it with other defensive cds. Something i always tried to tell OP about the nature of Mantras and why they have lower cds because of the downside/ high costs of such a long recharge. For Mantra of Pain i think like 99% of the ppl and Mesmer mains in this forum agree, that it is a stupid mechanic to have such high dmg on an instant max range skill without any cds inbetween recharge and inbetween uses even adding vulnerability- and mightstacks. Still it is only a secondary problem on this build, because it can oneshot the same builds also without Mantra of Pain. But it makes sense to use for more pressure vs bunker builds and for more constant (sustained) dmg. Mantra of Pain needs a rework because it is like PU an unheathy mechanic in general. But at least it needs nerfs in the vulnerability stacks, mightstacks and some cds (in my view, i know you disagree Viquing, but i am not talking to you here so no need to restart our dispute). I prefer a rework instead a nerf, rework into something not unhealth but still useful (just like for PU). Maybe replace the dmg part with chill? Mesmers don't need other dead traits/skills like EM, a broken mechanic nerfed to death not get used at all. EM would be much better without stunbreak on dodge and without the punish-debuff and for that 2 instead 1 conditions removed or something like that. It would have more uses already than it has atm. But before Viquing incs on me again, yes most meta builds have also or even more balance issues than a Core PU Mesmer using Mantra of Pain and these are discussed in the complain threads for these classes and should not justify overperforming or unhealthy mechanics on Mesmer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
viquing.8254 Posted October 20, 2019 Share Posted October 20, 2019 > @"bravan.3876" said: > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > @"shadowpass.4236" immagine whinging about mesmer sword auto chain as a RANGER main, while this exists > > https://imgur.com/gallery/6qqQh54 > > > > P.S thats from TODAY only :D > > Not sure if it was a good idea to pump this nonsense thread once again to talk to a banned player known for being unreasonable und deconstructive to show him once again that he is not right or just hypocrite with most he says... but whatever. > > Did you watch mATs in EU? Misha was playing Core PU Mesmer but he ran it without Mantra of Distraction, what i have seen before a lot in EU. It makes sense because of the reasons i mentioned already: Mantra of Distraction is not needed for the oneshot. Everything Mantra of Distraction adds to the combo you get form f3, just that f3 stuns in addition and not only daze. And this build is meant to just hit the burts and then run (maybe cast some phantasm as follow up pressure before), using an additional stealth skill (gives additional boons, another stunbreak and disengage tool) instead Mantra of Distraction makes much more sense in particular when you run vs decent teams know what to focus, means the Mesmer cannot freecast all time and recharge 5 seconds for free. Also recharging 2 Mantras instead of only one all the time is a lot of downtime the Mesmer can't rly do something else and need to cover like 5 secs of recharge makes him very vulnerable or makes him need to cover it with other defensive cds. Something i always tried to tell OP about the nature of Mantras and why they have lower cds because of the downside/ high costs of such a long recharge. > > For Mantra of Pain i think like 99% of the ppl and Mesmer mains in this forum agree, that it is a stupid mechanic to have such high dmg on an instant max range skill without any cds inbetween recharge and inbetween uses even adding vulnerability- and mightstacks. Still it is only a secondary problem on this build, because it can oneshot the same builds also without Mantra of Pain. But it makes sense to use for more pressure vs bunker builds and for more constant (sustained) dmg. Mantra of Pain needs a rework because it is like PU an unheathy mechanic in general. But at least it needs nerfs in the vulnerability stacks, mightstacks and some cds (in my opinion, i know you disagree Viquing, but i am not talking to you here so no need to restart our dispute). I prefer a rework instead a nerf, rework into something not unhealth but still useful (just like for PU). Maybe replace the dmg part with chill? Mesmers don't need other dead traits/skills like EM, a broken mechanic nerfed to death not get used at all. EM would be much better without stunbreak on dodge and without the punish-debuff and for that 2 instead 1 conditions removed or something like that. It would have more uses already than it has atm. But before Viquing incs on me again, yes most meta builds have also or even more balance issues than a Core PU Mesmer using Mantra of Pain and these are discussed in the complain threads for these classes and should not justify overperforming or unhealthy mechanics on Mesmer. I was waiting for the mAt core mes :D Yeah no MoD. Sincerely there are way too much period of time where he can't do anything. Ok he can survive but it didn't matter when all your team is dead while you are hidding in stealth. (note that they haven't counter thief on the opposite team at beginning.) Ok he can do some 80%hp burst but if you look details, once opponents get one shotted once, it was way harder for him to output his burst. Not to say the very low impact in teamfight. In his last game (high level) he does like 3 really usefull bursts in a full game which is very low talking about game impact. That said about your suggestions (ofc I will go on because you didn't seems to understand the pro/cons of what you propose.) : With your nerf suggestion to MoP : welcome to one more dead utility because it will not worth it. Before the "up" of might/damage/vulenrability, MoP was used only for 1) heal spam with trait and 2) armor spam with trait. Armor spam is gone and heal spam isn't viable so if you take this skill as his previous state, it will just add to the list of unused skills. Personnaly I will increase the might duration and give it a 24 sec CD so it does what it should do : a on demand spike but not anymore spammable. Or make it a boon removal aoe mantra (but with real aoe, not laughable 180 radius like dune cloak.). But the only thing mantra core mes bring on the table is the high burst, I don't think reducing the spike or the stealth burst window will make core mes more playable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fir.7932 Posted October 20, 2019 Share Posted October 20, 2019 Dude, mantra power mesmer (with any build) is so gutted, it makes me sad. Compared to builds like FA ele, Herald or Deadeye its incredibly punishing to play, once you blink in, there's no disengage for you, you just have to score a kill or you die and the burst itself is really hard.. Ofc, if you find a really good player while you are mediocore, there, he will rekt you, but doesn't that go with any class? It's just even harder to be good as power mesmer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bravan.3876 Posted October 20, 2019 Share Posted October 20, 2019 > @"viquing.8254" said: > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > @"shadowpass.4236" immagine whinging about mesmer sword auto chain as a RANGER main, while this exists > > > https://imgur.com/gallery/6qqQh54 > > > > > > P.S thats from TODAY only :D > > > > Not sure if it was a good idea to pump this nonsense thread once again to talk to a banned player known for being unreasonable und deconstructive to show him once again that he is not right or just hypocrite with most he says... but whatever. > > > > Did you watch mATs in EU? Misha was playing Core PU Mesmer but he ran it without Mantra of Distraction, what i have seen before a lot in EU. It makes sense because of the reasons i mentioned already: Mantra of Distraction is not needed for the oneshot. Everything Mantra of Distraction adds to the combo you get form f3, just that f3 stuns in addition and not only daze. And this build is meant to just hit the burts and then run (maybe cast some phantasm as follow up pressure before), using an additional stealth skill (gives additional boons, another stunbreak and disengage tool) instead Mantra of Distraction makes much more sense in particular when you run vs decent teams know what to focus, means the Mesmer cannot freecast all time and recharge 5 seconds for free. Also recharging 2 Mantras instead of only one all the time is a lot of downtime the Mesmer can't rly do something else and need to cover like 5 secs of recharge makes him very vulnerable or makes him need to cover it with other defensive cds. Something i always tried to tell OP about the nature of Mantras and why they have lower cds because of the downside/ high costs of such a long recharge. > > > > For Mantra of Pain i think like 99% of the ppl and Mesmer mains in this forum agree, that it is a stupid mechanic to have such high dmg on an instant max range skill without any cds inbetween recharge and inbetween uses even adding vulnerability- and mightstacks. Still it is only a secondary problem on this build, because it can oneshot the same builds also without Mantra of Pain. But it makes sense to use for more pressure vs bunker builds and for more constant (sustained) dmg. Mantra of Pain needs a rework because it is like PU an unheathy mechanic in general. But at least it needs nerfs in the vulnerability stacks, mightstacks and some cds (in my opinion, i know you disagree Viquing, but i am not talking to you here so no need to restart our dispute). I prefer a rework instead a nerf, rework into something not unhealth but still useful (just like for PU). Maybe replace the dmg part with chill? Mesmers don't need other dead traits/skills like EM, a broken mechanic nerfed to death not get used at all. EM would be much better without stunbreak on dodge and without the punish-debuff and for that 2 instead 1 conditions removed or something like that. It would have more uses already than it has atm. But before Viquing incs on me again, yes most meta builds have also or even more balance issues than a Core PU Mesmer using Mantra of Pain and these are discussed in the complain threads for these classes and should not justify overperforming or unhealthy mechanics on Mesmer. > > I was waiting for the mAt core mes :D > Yeah no MoD. > Sincerely there are way too much period of time where he can't do anything. > Ok he can survive but it didn't matter when all your team is dead while you are hidding in stealth. > Ok he can do some 80%hp burst but if you look details, once opponents get one shotted once, it was way harder for him to output his burst. Not to say the very low impact in teamfight. > In his last game (high level) he does like 3 really usefull bursts (which an other similar class can't do while having more pressure) in a full game which is very low talking about game impact. > That said about your suggestions (ofc I will go on because you didn't seems to understand the pro/cons of what you propose.) : > With your nerf suggestion to MoP : welcome to one more dead utility because it will not worth it. Before the "up" of might/damage/vulenrability, MoP was used only for 1) heal spam with trait and 2) armor spam with trait. Armor spam is gone and heal spam isn't viable so if you take this skill as his previous state, it will just add to the list of unused skills. > Personnaly I will increase the might duration and give it a 24 sec CD so it does what it should do : a on demand spike but not anymore spammable. > Or make it a boon removal aoe mantra. > But the only thing mantra core mes bring on the table is the high burst, I don't think reducing the spike or the stealth burst window will make core mes more playable. > > > Boon removal aoe Mantra sounds pretty good to me, if Anet can't balance out the stupid amount of boonaccess on Meta builds than give Mesmers something unique back only they can do that good and with high amount. That is not broken even more would be a nice counter to a broken boonspam state and would give Mesmer some identity back after nerfing most of its useful and skillful utilities like Portal. Very good idea in my view! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apharma.3741 Posted October 20, 2019 Share Posted October 20, 2019 > @"bravan.3876" said: > > @"viquing.8254" said: > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" immagine whinging about mesmer sword auto chain as a RANGER main, while this exists > > > > https://imgur.com/gallery/6qqQh54 > > > > > > > > P.S thats from TODAY only :D > > > > > > Not sure if it was a good idea to pump this nonsense thread once again to talk to a banned player known for being unreasonable und deconstructive to show him once again that he is not right or just hypocrite with most he says... but whatever. > > > > > > Did you watch mATs in EU? Misha was playing Core PU Mesmer but he ran it without Mantra of Distraction, what i have seen before a lot in EU. It makes sense because of the reasons i mentioned already: Mantra of Distraction is not needed for the oneshot. Everything Mantra of Distraction adds to the combo you get form f3, just that f3 stuns in addition and not only daze. And this build is meant to just hit the burts and then run (maybe cast some phantasm as follow up pressure before), using an additional stealth skill (gives additional boons, another stunbreak and disengage tool) instead Mantra of Distraction makes much more sense in particular when you run vs decent teams know what to focus, means the Mesmer cannot freecast all time and recharge 5 seconds for free. Also recharging 2 Mantras instead of only one all the time is a lot of downtime the Mesmer can't rly do something else and need to cover like 5 secs of recharge makes him very vulnerable or makes him need to cover it with other defensive cds. Something i always tried to tell OP about the nature of Mantras and why they have lower cds because of the downside/ high costs of such a long recharge. > > > > > > For Mantra of Pain i think like 99% of the ppl and Mesmer mains in this forum agree, that it is a stupid mechanic to have such high dmg on an instant max range skill without any cds inbetween recharge and inbetween uses even adding vulnerability- and mightstacks. Still it is only a secondary problem on this build, because it can oneshot the same builds also without Mantra of Pain. But it makes sense to use for more pressure vs bunker builds and for more constant (sustained) dmg. Mantra of Pain needs a rework because it is like PU an unheathy mechanic in general. But at least it needs nerfs in the vulnerability stacks, mightstacks and some cds (in my opinion, i know you disagree Viquing, but i am not talking to you here so no need to restart our dispute). I prefer a rework instead a nerf, rework into something not unhealth but still useful (just like for PU). Maybe replace the dmg part with chill? Mesmers don't need other dead traits/skills like EM, a broken mechanic nerfed to death not get used at all. EM would be much better without stunbreak on dodge and without the punish-debuff and for that 2 instead 1 conditions removed or something like that. It would have more uses already than it has atm. But before Viquing incs on me again, yes most meta builds have also or even more balance issues than a Core PU Mesmer using Mantra of Pain and these are discussed in the complain threads for these classes and should not justify overperforming or unhealthy mechanics on Mesmer. > > > > I was waiting for the mAt core mes :D > > Yeah no MoD. > > Sincerely there are way too much period of time where he can't do anything. > > Ok he can survive but it didn't matter when all your team is dead while you are hidding in stealth. > > Ok he can do some 80%hp burst but if you look details, once opponents get one shotted once, it was way harder for him to output his burst. Not to say the very low impact in teamfight. > > In his last game (high level) he does like 3 really usefull bursts (which an other similar class can't do while having more pressure) in a full game which is very low talking about game impact. > > That said about your suggestions (ofc I will go on because you didn't seems to understand the pro/cons of what you propose.) : > > With your nerf suggestion to MoP : welcome to one more dead utility because it will not worth it. Before the "up" of might/damage/vulenrability, MoP was used only for 1) heal spam with trait and 2) armor spam with trait. Armor spam is gone and heal spam isn't viable so if you take this skill as his previous state, it will just add to the list of unused skills. > > Personnaly I will increase the might duration and give it a 24 sec CD so it does what it should do : a on demand spike but not anymore spammable. > > Or make it a boon removal aoe mantra. > > But the only thing mantra core mes bring on the table is the high burst, I don't think reducing the spike or the stealth burst window will make core mes more playable. > > > > > > > > Boon removal aoe Mantra sounds pretty good to me, if Anet can't balance out the stupid amount of boonaccess on Meta builds than give Mesmers something unique back only they can do that good and with high amount. That is not broken even more would be a nice counter to a broken boonspam state and would give Mesmer some identity back after nerfing most of its useful and skillful utilities like Portal. Very good idea in my view! **coughs** https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/63733/mantra-of-pain Edit: Obviously don't take the numbers as being gospel, it's nearly a year old but the idea of it manipulating boons on foes is what I'd like to see. You know, almost as if this is some kind of mesmer like thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonidrex.5649 Posted October 20, 2019 Share Posted October 20, 2019 > @"apharma.3741" said: > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > @"viquing.8254" said: > > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" immagine whinging about mesmer sword auto chain as a RANGER main, while this exists > > > > > https://imgur.com/gallery/6qqQh54 > > > > > > > > > > P.S thats from TODAY only :D > > > > > > > > Not sure if it was a good idea to pump this nonsense thread once again to talk to a banned player known for being unreasonable und deconstructive to show him once again that he is not right or just hypocrite with most he says... but whatever. > > > > > > > > Did you watch mATs in EU? Misha was playing Core PU Mesmer but he ran it without Mantra of Distraction, what i have seen before a lot in EU. It makes sense because of the reasons i mentioned already: Mantra of Distraction is not needed for the oneshot. Everything Mantra of Distraction adds to the combo you get form f3, just that f3 stuns in addition and not only daze. And this build is meant to just hit the burts and then run (maybe cast some phantasm as follow up pressure before), using an additional stealth skill (gives additional boons, another stunbreak and disengage tool) instead Mantra of Distraction makes much more sense in particular when you run vs decent teams know what to focus, means the Mesmer cannot freecast all time and recharge 5 seconds for free. Also recharging 2 Mantras instead of only one all the time is a lot of downtime the Mesmer can't rly do something else and need to cover like 5 secs of recharge makes him very vulnerable or makes him need to cover it with other defensive cds. Something i always tried to tell OP about the nature of Mantras and why they have lower cds because of the downside/ high costs of such a long recharge. > > > > > > > > For Mantra of Pain i think like 99% of the ppl and Mesmer mains in this forum agree, that it is a stupid mechanic to have such high dmg on an instant max range skill without any cds inbetween recharge and inbetween uses even adding vulnerability- and mightstacks. Still it is only a secondary problem on this build, because it can oneshot the same builds also without Mantra of Pain. But it makes sense to use for more pressure vs bunker builds and for more constant (sustained) dmg. Mantra of Pain needs a rework because it is like PU an unheathy mechanic in general. But at least it needs nerfs in the vulnerability stacks, mightstacks and some cds (in my opinion, i know you disagree Viquing, but i am not talking to you here so no need to restart our dispute). I prefer a rework instead a nerf, rework into something not unhealth but still useful (just like for PU). Maybe replace the dmg part with chill? Mesmers don't need other dead traits/skills like EM, a broken mechanic nerfed to death not get used at all. EM would be much better without stunbreak on dodge and without the punish-debuff and for that 2 instead 1 conditions removed or something like that. It would have more uses already than it has atm. But before Viquing incs on me again, yes most meta builds have also or even more balance issues than a Core PU Mesmer using Mantra of Pain and these are discussed in the complain threads for these classes and should not justify overperforming or unhealthy mechanics on Mesmer. > > > > > > I was waiting for the mAt core mes :D > > > Yeah no MoD. > > > Sincerely there are way too much period of time where he can't do anything. > > > Ok he can survive but it didn't matter when all your team is dead while you are hidding in stealth. > > > Ok he can do some 80%hp burst but if you look details, once opponents get one shotted once, it was way harder for him to output his burst. Not to say the very low impact in teamfight. > > > In his last game (high level) he does like 3 really usefull bursts (which an other similar class can't do while having more pressure) in a full game which is very low talking about game impact. > > > That said about your suggestions (ofc I will go on because you didn't seems to understand the pro/cons of what you propose.) : > > > With your nerf suggestion to MoP : welcome to one more dead utility because it will not worth it. Before the "up" of might/damage/vulenrability, MoP was used only for 1) heal spam with trait and 2) armor spam with trait. Armor spam is gone and heal spam isn't viable so if you take this skill as his previous state, it will just add to the list of unused skills. > > > Personnaly I will increase the might duration and give it a 24 sec CD so it does what it should do : a on demand spike but not anymore spammable. > > > Or make it a boon removal aoe mantra. > > > But the only thing mantra core mes bring on the table is the high burst, I don't think reducing the spike or the stealth burst window will make core mes more playable. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Boon removal aoe Mantra sounds pretty good to me, if Anet can't balance out the stupid amount of boonaccess on Meta builds than give Mesmers something unique back only they can do that good and with high amount. That is not broken even more would be a nice counter to a broken boonspam state and would give Mesmer some identity back after nerfing most of its useful and skillful utilities like Portal. Very good idea in my view! > > **coughs** > > https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/63733/mantra-of-pain > > Edit: Obviously don't take the numbers as being gospel, it's nearly a year old but the idea of it manipulating boons on foes is what I'd like to see. You know, almost as if this is some kind of mesmer like thing. yea, i would like it to remove boons, but it would have to be better at it then arcane thievery, otherwise its a nono. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bravan.3876 Posted October 20, 2019 Share Posted October 20, 2019 > @"apharma.3741" said: > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > @"viquing.8254" said: > > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" immagine whinging about mesmer sword auto chain as a RANGER main, while this exists > > > > > https://imgur.com/gallery/6qqQh54 > > > > > > > > > > P.S thats from TODAY only :D > > > > > > > > Not sure if it was a good idea to pump this nonsense thread once again to talk to a banned player known for being unreasonable und deconstructive to show him once again that he is not right or just hypocrite with most he says... but whatever. > > > > > > > > Did you watch mATs in EU? Misha was playing Core PU Mesmer but he ran it without Mantra of Distraction, what i have seen before a lot in EU. It makes sense because of the reasons i mentioned already: Mantra of Distraction is not needed for the oneshot. Everything Mantra of Distraction adds to the combo you get form f3, just that f3 stuns in addition and not only daze. And this build is meant to just hit the burts and then run (maybe cast some phantasm as follow up pressure before), using an additional stealth skill (gives additional boons, another stunbreak and disengage tool) instead Mantra of Distraction makes much more sense in particular when you run vs decent teams know what to focus, means the Mesmer cannot freecast all time and recharge 5 seconds for free. Also recharging 2 Mantras instead of only one all the time is a lot of downtime the Mesmer can't rly do something else and need to cover like 5 secs of recharge makes him very vulnerable or makes him need to cover it with other defensive cds. Something i always tried to tell OP about the nature of Mantras and why they have lower cds because of the downside/ high costs of such a long recharge. > > > > > > > > For Mantra of Pain i think like 99% of the ppl and Mesmer mains in this forum agree, that it is a stupid mechanic to have such high dmg on an instant max range skill without any cds inbetween recharge and inbetween uses even adding vulnerability- and mightstacks. Still it is only a secondary problem on this build, because it can oneshot the same builds also without Mantra of Pain. But it makes sense to use for more pressure vs bunker builds and for more constant (sustained) dmg. Mantra of Pain needs a rework because it is like PU an unheathy mechanic in general. But at least it needs nerfs in the vulnerability stacks, mightstacks and some cds (in my opinion, i know you disagree Viquing, but i am not talking to you here so no need to restart our dispute). I prefer a rework instead a nerf, rework into something not unhealth but still useful (just like for PU). Maybe replace the dmg part with chill? Mesmers don't need other dead traits/skills like EM, a broken mechanic nerfed to death not get used at all. EM would be much better without stunbreak on dodge and without the punish-debuff and for that 2 instead 1 conditions removed or something like that. It would have more uses already than it has atm. But before Viquing incs on me again, yes most meta builds have also or even more balance issues than a Core PU Mesmer using Mantra of Pain and these are discussed in the complain threads for these classes and should not justify overperforming or unhealthy mechanics on Mesmer. > > > > > > I was waiting for the mAt core mes :D > > > Yeah no MoD. > > > Sincerely there are way too much period of time where he can't do anything. > > > Ok he can survive but it didn't matter when all your team is dead while you are hidding in stealth. > > > Ok he can do some 80%hp burst but if you look details, once opponents get one shotted once, it was way harder for him to output his burst. Not to say the very low impact in teamfight. > > > In his last game (high level) he does like 3 really usefull bursts (which an other similar class can't do while having more pressure) in a full game which is very low talking about game impact. > > > That said about your suggestions (ofc I will go on because you didn't seems to understand the pro/cons of what you propose.) : > > > With your nerf suggestion to MoP : welcome to one more dead utility because it will not worth it. Before the "up" of might/damage/vulenrability, MoP was used only for 1) heal spam with trait and 2) armor spam with trait. Armor spam is gone and heal spam isn't viable so if you take this skill as his previous state, it will just add to the list of unused skills. > > > Personnaly I will increase the might duration and give it a 24 sec CD so it does what it should do : a on demand spike but not anymore spammable. > > > Or make it a boon removal aoe mantra. > > > But the only thing mantra core mes bring on the table is the high burst, I don't think reducing the spike or the stealth burst window will make core mes more playable. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Boon removal aoe Mantra sounds pretty good to me, if Anet can't balance out the stupid amount of boonaccess on Meta builds than give Mesmers something unique back only they can do that good and with high amount. That is not broken even more would be a nice counter to a broken boonspam state and would give Mesmer some identity back after nerfing most of its useful and skillful utilities like Portal. Very good idea in my view! > > **coughs** > > https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/63733/mantra-of-pain > > Edit: Obviously don't take the numbers as being gospel, it's nearly a year old but the idea of it manipulating boons on foes is what I'd like to see. You know, almost as if this is some kind of mesmer like thing. Sry i barely read class subforums. The idea of boon removal Mantra is great, no matter who was the first had it. Kudos to you then. And yes it fits perfect into Mesmer theme. Why wasn't it created like that in the first place? The idea of high instant max range dmg spammable (no real cds inbetween uses, no need to interrupt or whatever you have to care for at least, nothing...) was bad right from the start. Anet pls do your first good rework without just killing something with nerf to death mentality. These are the kind of senseful changes/ reworks i like to see for stuff i complain about. Any good idea for PU if we are on it? Removing the stealth duration increase was the only thing we could agree until now but it needs some form of compensation. Or we have a better idea how to change the trait into something completely different but still useful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonidrex.5649 Posted October 20, 2019 Share Posted October 20, 2019 > @"bravan.3876" said: > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > @"viquing.8254" said: > > > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" immagine whinging about mesmer sword auto chain as a RANGER main, while this exists > > > > > > https://imgur.com/gallery/6qqQh54 > > > > > > > > > > > > P.S thats from TODAY only :D > > > > > > > > > > Not sure if it was a good idea to pump this nonsense thread once again to talk to a banned player known for being unreasonable und deconstructive to show him once again that he is not right or just hypocrite with most he says... but whatever. > > > > > > > > > > Did you watch mATs in EU? Misha was playing Core PU Mesmer but he ran it without Mantra of Distraction, what i have seen before a lot in EU. It makes sense because of the reasons i mentioned already: Mantra of Distraction is not needed for the oneshot. Everything Mantra of Distraction adds to the combo you get form f3, just that f3 stuns in addition and not only daze. And this build is meant to just hit the burts and then run (maybe cast some phantasm as follow up pressure before), using an additional stealth skill (gives additional boons, another stunbreak and disengage tool) instead Mantra of Distraction makes much more sense in particular when you run vs decent teams know what to focus, means the Mesmer cannot freecast all time and recharge 5 seconds for free. Also recharging 2 Mantras instead of only one all the time is a lot of downtime the Mesmer can't rly do something else and need to cover like 5 secs of recharge makes him very vulnerable or makes him need to cover it with other defensive cds. Something i always tried to tell OP about the nature of Mantras and why they have lower cds because of the downside/ high costs of such a long recharge. > > > > > > > > > > For Mantra of Pain i think like 99% of the ppl and Mesmer mains in this forum agree, that it is a stupid mechanic to have such high dmg on an instant max range skill without any cds inbetween recharge and inbetween uses even adding vulnerability- and mightstacks. Still it is only a secondary problem on this build, because it can oneshot the same builds also without Mantra of Pain. But it makes sense to use for more pressure vs bunker builds and for more constant (sustained) dmg. Mantra of Pain needs a rework because it is like PU an unheathy mechanic in general. But at least it needs nerfs in the vulnerability stacks, mightstacks and some cds (in my opinion, i know you disagree Viquing, but i am not talking to you here so no need to restart our dispute). I prefer a rework instead a nerf, rework into something not unhealth but still useful (just like for PU). Maybe replace the dmg part with chill? Mesmers don't need other dead traits/skills like EM, a broken mechanic nerfed to death not get used at all. EM would be much better without stunbreak on dodge and without the punish-debuff and for that 2 instead 1 conditions removed or something like that. It would have more uses already than it has atm. But before Viquing incs on me again, yes most meta builds have also or even more balance issues than a Core PU Mesmer using Mantra of Pain and these are discussed in the complain threads for these classes and should not justify overperforming or unhealthy mechanics on Mesmer. > > > > > > > > I was waiting for the mAt core mes :D > > > > Yeah no MoD. > > > > Sincerely there are way too much period of time where he can't do anything. > > > > Ok he can survive but it didn't matter when all your team is dead while you are hidding in stealth. > > > > Ok he can do some 80%hp burst but if you look details, once opponents get one shotted once, it was way harder for him to output his burst. Not to say the very low impact in teamfight. > > > > In his last game (high level) he does like 3 really usefull bursts (which an other similar class can't do while having more pressure) in a full game which is very low talking about game impact. > > > > That said about your suggestions (ofc I will go on because you didn't seems to understand the pro/cons of what you propose.) : > > > > With your nerf suggestion to MoP : welcome to one more dead utility because it will not worth it. Before the "up" of might/damage/vulenrability, MoP was used only for 1) heal spam with trait and 2) armor spam with trait. Armor spam is gone and heal spam isn't viable so if you take this skill as his previous state, it will just add to the list of unused skills. > > > > Personnaly I will increase the might duration and give it a 24 sec CD so it does what it should do : a on demand spike but not anymore spammable. > > > > Or make it a boon removal aoe mantra. > > > > But the only thing mantra core mes bring on the table is the high burst, I don't think reducing the spike or the stealth burst window will make core mes more playable. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Boon removal aoe Mantra sounds pretty good to me, if Anet can't balance out the stupid amount of boonaccess on Meta builds than give Mesmers something unique back only they can do that good and with high amount. That is not broken even more would be a nice counter to a broken boonspam state and would give Mesmer some identity back after nerfing most of its useful and skillful utilities like Portal. Very good idea in my view! > > > > **coughs** > > > > https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/63733/mantra-of-pain > > > > Edit: Obviously don't take the numbers as being gospel, it's nearly a year old but the idea of it manipulating boons on foes is what I'd like to see. You know, almost as if this is some kind of mesmer like thing. > > Sry i barely read class subforums. The idea of boon removal Mantra is great, no matter who was the first had it. Kudos to you then. And yes it fits perfect into Mesmer theme. Why wasn't it created like that in the first place? The idea of high instant max range dmg spammable (no real cds inbetween uses, no need to interrupt or whatever you have to care for at least, nothing...) was bad right from the start. Anet pls do your first good rework without just killing something with nerf to death mentality. These are the kind of senseful changes/ reworks i like to see for stuff i complain about. Any good idea for PU if we are on it? Removing the stealth duration increase was the only thing we could agree until now but it needs some form of compensation. Or we have a better idea how to change the trait into something completely different but still useful. or mb it could apply a debuff, that makes boons inefective for X ammount of time, kinda like resistance does for conditions. could be broken tho. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bravan.3876 Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > or mb it could apply a debuff, that makes boons inefective for X ammount of time, kinda like resistance does for conditions. could be broken tho. Sounds like a cool new effect for the next expansion (if we get one) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apharma.3741 Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 > @"bravan.3876" said: > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > @"viquing.8254" said: > > > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" immagine whinging about mesmer sword auto chain as a RANGER main, while this exists > > > > > > https://imgur.com/gallery/6qqQh54 > > > > > > > > > > > > P.S thats from TODAY only :D > > > > > > > > > > Not sure if it was a good idea to pump this nonsense thread once again to talk to a banned player known for being unreasonable und deconstructive to show him once again that he is not right or just hypocrite with most he says... but whatever. > > > > > > > > > > Did you watch mATs in EU? Misha was playing Core PU Mesmer but he ran it without Mantra of Distraction, what i have seen before a lot in EU. It makes sense because of the reasons i mentioned already: Mantra of Distraction is not needed for the oneshot. Everything Mantra of Distraction adds to the combo you get form f3, just that f3 stuns in addition and not only daze. And this build is meant to just hit the burts and then run (maybe cast some phantasm as follow up pressure before), using an additional stealth skill (gives additional boons, another stunbreak and disengage tool) instead Mantra of Distraction makes much more sense in particular when you run vs decent teams know what to focus, means the Mesmer cannot freecast all time and recharge 5 seconds for free. Also recharging 2 Mantras instead of only one all the time is a lot of downtime the Mesmer can't rly do something else and need to cover like 5 secs of recharge makes him very vulnerable or makes him need to cover it with other defensive cds. Something i always tried to tell OP about the nature of Mantras and why they have lower cds because of the downside/ high costs of such a long recharge. > > > > > > > > > > For Mantra of Pain i think like 99% of the ppl and Mesmer mains in this forum agree, that it is a stupid mechanic to have such high dmg on an instant max range skill without any cds inbetween recharge and inbetween uses even adding vulnerability- and mightstacks. Still it is only a secondary problem on this build, because it can oneshot the same builds also without Mantra of Pain. But it makes sense to use for more pressure vs bunker builds and for more constant (sustained) dmg. Mantra of Pain needs a rework because it is like PU an unheathy mechanic in general. But at least it needs nerfs in the vulnerability stacks, mightstacks and some cds (in my opinion, i know you disagree Viquing, but i am not talking to you here so no need to restart our dispute). I prefer a rework instead a nerf, rework into something not unhealth but still useful (just like for PU). Maybe replace the dmg part with chill? Mesmers don't need other dead traits/skills like EM, a broken mechanic nerfed to death not get used at all. EM would be much better without stunbreak on dodge and without the punish-debuff and for that 2 instead 1 conditions removed or something like that. It would have more uses already than it has atm. But before Viquing incs on me again, yes most meta builds have also or even more balance issues than a Core PU Mesmer using Mantra of Pain and these are discussed in the complain threads for these classes and should not justify overperforming or unhealthy mechanics on Mesmer. > > > > > > > > I was waiting for the mAt core mes :D > > > > Yeah no MoD. > > > > Sincerely there are way too much period of time where he can't do anything. > > > > Ok he can survive but it didn't matter when all your team is dead while you are hidding in stealth. > > > > Ok he can do some 80%hp burst but if you look details, once opponents get one shotted once, it was way harder for him to output his burst. Not to say the very low impact in teamfight. > > > > In his last game (high level) he does like 3 really usefull bursts (which an other similar class can't do while having more pressure) in a full game which is very low talking about game impact. > > > > That said about your suggestions (ofc I will go on because you didn't seems to understand the pro/cons of what you propose.) : > > > > With your nerf suggestion to MoP : welcome to one more dead utility because it will not worth it. Before the "up" of might/damage/vulenrability, MoP was used only for 1) heal spam with trait and 2) armor spam with trait. Armor spam is gone and heal spam isn't viable so if you take this skill as his previous state, it will just add to the list of unused skills. > > > > Personnaly I will increase the might duration and give it a 24 sec CD so it does what it should do : a on demand spike but not anymore spammable. > > > > Or make it a boon removal aoe mantra. > > > > But the only thing mantra core mes bring on the table is the high burst, I don't think reducing the spike or the stealth burst window will make core mes more playable. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Boon removal aoe Mantra sounds pretty good to me, if Anet can't balance out the stupid amount of boonaccess on Meta builds than give Mesmers something unique back only they can do that good and with high amount. That is not broken even more would be a nice counter to a broken boonspam state and would give Mesmer some identity back after nerfing most of its useful and skillful utilities like Portal. Very good idea in my view! > > > > **coughs** > > > > https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/63733/mantra-of-pain > > > > Edit: Obviously don't take the numbers as being gospel, it's nearly a year old but the idea of it manipulating boons on foes is what I'd like to see. You know, almost as if this is some kind of mesmer like thing. > > Sry i barely read class subforums. The idea of boon removal Mantra is great, no matter who was the first had it. Kudos to you then. And yes it fits perfect into Mesmer theme. Why wasn't it created like that in the first place? The idea of high instant max range dmg spammable (no real cds inbetween uses, no need to interrupt or whatever you have to care for at least, nothing...) was bad right from the start. Anet pls do your first good rework without just killing something with nerf to death mentality. These are the kind of senseful changes/ reworks i like to see for stuff i complain about. Any good idea for PU if we are on it? Removing the stealth duration increase was the only thing we could agree until now but it needs some form of compensation. Or we have a better idea how to change the trait into something completely different but still useful. PU specifically? Not really because the problem isn't necessarily PU. Changing PU isn't easy, it's hard to keep the defensive theme of the line and couple it with stealth. If you decouple the trait from stealth then you have to find something else to activate the trait that fits with the line and purpose where nothing really comes to mind without bloating already overloaded aspects of the class. To me your problem is mostly stealth stacking and a little bit the long duration of Mass Invis with PU. The problems you have with oneshot mesmer can easily happen on any other class if/when it gets access to smoke fields or any decent stealth duration. We all remember druid being completely busted in the opposite way where it could reset in stealth over and over and never really die because it could easily get 6-9s of stealth, same with original stealth gyro and scrapper. An idea is to finally address stealth and prevent it stacking so people cannot get 6-20s of stealth, maybe adding forced reveal which would certainly prevent problems in the future for other classes however it in many ways screws over mesmer and thief which are balanced around stealth at their core. Many people would praise ANet and call it a great change, enjoying these classes being much reduced in effectiveness unless you played those 2 classes where you're going to hate it for a long time especially in WvW. You would also have to go through quite a lot of skills in the game and rebalance the duration to be longer while making smoke fields and their associated kits worse in the meta where they may not be strong at all. Why do I mention it? They would likely have to buff stealth duration for these two classes specifically or reduce cool downs which may not actually help. For mesmer it's fairly easy as much of it's stealth is through skills so you can simply change to 4s or 5s stealth and remove duration from PU making PU simply give protection, swiftness and resistance in stealth. Thief though, they use combo fields and forcing them into SA to be functional is really horrible, you also can't buff combo fields baseline because other classes would get stronger. You could technically make all first minor traits for thief give +1s stealth which would solve the problem but it's a very inelegant solution to say the least. So you see it's not really an easy solution for what YOU don't like, it may not actually "fix" anything while being detrimental to the whole +1 burst playstyle of thief and mesmer as it's hard to realise the wide spread implications of such a fundamental change to core mechanics. 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bravan.3876 Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 > @"apharma.3741" said: > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > > @"viquing.8254" said: > > > > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" immagine whinging about mesmer sword auto chain as a RANGER main, while this exists > > > > > > > https://imgur.com/gallery/6qqQh54 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > P.S thats from TODAY only :D > > > > > > > > > > > > Not sure if it was a good idea to pump this nonsense thread once again to talk to a banned player known for being unreasonable und deconstructive to show him once again that he is not right or just hypocrite with most he says... but whatever. > > > > > > > > > > > > Did you watch mATs in EU? Misha was playing Core PU Mesmer but he ran it without Mantra of Distraction, what i have seen before a lot in EU. It makes sense because of the reasons i mentioned already: Mantra of Distraction is not needed for the oneshot. Everything Mantra of Distraction adds to the combo you get form f3, just that f3 stuns in addition and not only daze. And this build is meant to just hit the burts and then run (maybe cast some phantasm as follow up pressure before), using an additional stealth skill (gives additional boons, another stunbreak and disengage tool) instead Mantra of Distraction makes much more sense in particular when you run vs decent teams know what to focus, means the Mesmer cannot freecast all time and recharge 5 seconds for free. Also recharging 2 Mantras instead of only one all the time is a lot of downtime the Mesmer can't rly do something else and need to cover like 5 secs of recharge makes him very vulnerable or makes him need to cover it with other defensive cds. Something i always tried to tell OP about the nature of Mantras and why they have lower cds because of the downside/ high costs of such a long recharge. > > > > > > > > > > > > For Mantra of Pain i think like 99% of the ppl and Mesmer mains in this forum agree, that it is a stupid mechanic to have such high dmg on an instant max range skill without any cds inbetween recharge and inbetween uses even adding vulnerability- and mightstacks. Still it is only a secondary problem on this build, because it can oneshot the same builds also without Mantra of Pain. But it makes sense to use for more pressure vs bunker builds and for more constant (sustained) dmg. Mantra of Pain needs a rework because it is like PU an unheathy mechanic in general. But at least it needs nerfs in the vulnerability stacks, mightstacks and some cds (in my opinion, i know you disagree Viquing, but i am not talking to you here so no need to restart our dispute). I prefer a rework instead a nerf, rework into something not unhealth but still useful (just like for PU). Maybe replace the dmg part with chill? Mesmers don't need other dead traits/skills like EM, a broken mechanic nerfed to death not get used at all. EM would be much better without stunbreak on dodge and without the punish-debuff and for that 2 instead 1 conditions removed or something like that. It would have more uses already than it has atm. But before Viquing incs on me again, yes most meta builds have also or even more balance issues than a Core PU Mesmer using Mantra of Pain and these are discussed in the complain threads for these classes and should not justify overperforming or unhealthy mechanics on Mesmer. > > > > > > > > > > I was waiting for the mAt core mes :D > > > > > Yeah no MoD. > > > > > Sincerely there are way too much period of time where he can't do anything. > > > > > Ok he can survive but it didn't matter when all your team is dead while you are hidding in stealth. > > > > > Ok he can do some 80%hp burst but if you look details, once opponents get one shotted once, it was way harder for him to output his burst. Not to say the very low impact in teamfight. > > > > > In his last game (high level) he does like 3 really usefull bursts (which an other similar class can't do while having more pressure) in a full game which is very low talking about game impact. > > > > > That said about your suggestions (ofc I will go on because you didn't seems to understand the pro/cons of what you propose.) : > > > > > With your nerf suggestion to MoP : welcome to one more dead utility because it will not worth it. Before the "up" of might/damage/vulenrability, MoP was used only for 1) heal spam with trait and 2) armor spam with trait. Armor spam is gone and heal spam isn't viable so if you take this skill as his previous state, it will just add to the list of unused skills. > > > > > Personnaly I will increase the might duration and give it a 24 sec CD so it does what it should do : a on demand spike but not anymore spammable. > > > > > Or make it a boon removal aoe mantra. > > > > > But the only thing mantra core mes bring on the table is the high burst, I don't think reducing the spike or the stealth burst window will make core mes more playable. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Boon removal aoe Mantra sounds pretty good to me, if Anet can't balance out the stupid amount of boonaccess on Meta builds than give Mesmers something unique back only they can do that good and with high amount. That is not broken even more would be a nice counter to a broken boonspam state and would give Mesmer some identity back after nerfing most of its useful and skillful utilities like Portal. Very good idea in my view! > > > > > > **coughs** > > > > > > https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/63733/mantra-of-pain > > > > > > Edit: Obviously don't take the numbers as being gospel, it's nearly a year old but the idea of it manipulating boons on foes is what I'd like to see. You know, almost as if this is some kind of mesmer like thing. > > > > Sry i barely read class subforums. The idea of boon removal Mantra is great, no matter who was the first had it. Kudos to you then. And yes it fits perfect into Mesmer theme. Why wasn't it created like that in the first place? The idea of high instant max range dmg spammable (no real cds inbetween uses, no need to interrupt or whatever you have to care for at least, nothing...) was bad right from the start. Anet pls do your first good rework without just killing something with nerf to death mentality. These are the kind of senseful changes/ reworks i like to see for stuff i complain about. Any good idea for PU if we are on it? Removing the stealth duration increase was the only thing we could agree until now but it needs some form of compensation. Or we have a better idea how to change the trait into something completely different but still useful. > > PU specifically? Not really because the problem isn't necessarily PU. Changing PU isn't easy, it's hard to keep the defensive theme of the line and couple it with stealth. If you decouple the trait from stealth then you have to find something else to activate the trait that fits with the line and purpose where nothing really comes to mind without bloating already overloaded aspects of the class. > > To me your problem is mostly stealth stacking and a little bit the long duration of Mass Invis with PU. The problems you have with oneshot mesmer can easily happen on any other class if/when it gets access to smoke fields or any decent stealth duration. We all remember druid being completely busted in the opposite way where it could reset in stealth over and over and never really die because it could easily get 6-9s of stealth, same with original stealth gyro and scrapper. > > An idea is to finally address stealth and prevent it stacking so people cannot get 6-20s of stealth, maybe adding forced reveal which would certainly prevent problems in the future for other classes however it in many ways screws over mesmer and thief which are balanced around stealth at their core. Many people would praise ANet and call it a great change, enjoying these classes being much reduced in effectiveness unless you played those 2 classes where you're going to hate it for a long time especially in WvW. You would also have to go through quite a lot of skills in the game and rebalance the duration to be longer while making smoke fields and their associated kits worse in the meta where they may not be strong at all. > > Why do I mention it? They would likely have to buff stealth duration for these two classes specifically or reduce cool downs which may not actually help. For mesmer it's fairly easy as much of it's stealth is through skills so you can simply change to 4s or 5s stealth and remove duration from PU making PU simply give protection, swiftness and resistance in stealth. Thief though, they use combo fields and forcing them into SA to be functional is really horrible, you also can't buff combo fields baseline because other classes would get stronger. You could technically make all first minor traits for thief give +1s stealth which would solve the problem but it's a very inelegant solution to say the least. > > So you see it's not really an easy solution for what YOU don't like, it may not actually "fix" anything while being detrimental to the whole +1 burst playstyle of thief and mesmer as it's hard to realise the wide spread implications of such a fundamental change to core mechanics. I know it is not easy, i never said it is easy and i never said i have the perfect solution. I just can tell what is unhealthy or overperforming and then add some ideas for a rework or nerf and then hope for constructive brainstorming with others (also Mesmer mains). I am always open for better ideas. How about the idea to make dmg multiplier get disabled (or simply a straight overall dmg reduction down to 30% or something, or just both to be sure rofl) starting after 3 secs of stealth? Means you still can stack stealth for defensive purpose and repositioning but not to oneshot someone without any tell with stacked stealth out of ear shot and visible range and can't bait out more than one dodge or one defensive cd each stealth use. The debuff or however it will be designed will stop after 1 secs the player left stealth, so that all follow up casts will not be affected (like a berserker cast after the oneshot try) but only the skills part of the oneshot combo? Numbers are all just examples and free to get changed, like we can start after 5 secs of stealth not 3. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apharma.3741 Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 > @"bravan.3876" said: > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > > > @"viquing.8254" said: > > > > > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" immagine whinging about mesmer sword auto chain as a RANGER main, while this exists > > > > > > > > https://imgur.com/gallery/6qqQh54 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > P.S thats from TODAY only :D > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Not sure if it was a good idea to pump this nonsense thread once again to talk to a banned player known for being unreasonable und deconstructive to show him once again that he is not right or just hypocrite with most he says... but whatever. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Did you watch mATs in EU? Misha was playing Core PU Mesmer but he ran it without Mantra of Distraction, what i have seen before a lot in EU. It makes sense because of the reasons i mentioned already: Mantra of Distraction is not needed for the oneshot. Everything Mantra of Distraction adds to the combo you get form f3, just that f3 stuns in addition and not only daze. And this build is meant to just hit the burts and then run (maybe cast some phantasm as follow up pressure before), using an additional stealth skill (gives additional boons, another stunbreak and disengage tool) instead Mantra of Distraction makes much more sense in particular when you run vs decent teams know what to focus, means the Mesmer cannot freecast all time and recharge 5 seconds for free. Also recharging 2 Mantras instead of only one all the time is a lot of downtime the Mesmer can't rly do something else and need to cover like 5 secs of recharge makes him very vulnerable or makes him need to cover it with other defensive cds. Something i always tried to tell OP about the nature of Mantras and why they have lower cds because of the downside/ high costs of such a long recharge. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > For Mantra of Pain i think like 99% of the ppl and Mesmer mains in this forum agree, that it is a stupid mechanic to have such high dmg on an instant max range skill without any cds inbetween recharge and inbetween uses even adding vulnerability- and mightstacks. Still it is only a secondary problem on this build, because it can oneshot the same builds also without Mantra of Pain. But it makes sense to use for more pressure vs bunker builds and for more constant (sustained) dmg. Mantra of Pain needs a rework because it is like PU an unheathy mechanic in general. But at least it needs nerfs in the vulnerability stacks, mightstacks and some cds (in my opinion, i know you disagree Viquing, but i am not talking to you here so no need to restart our dispute). I prefer a rework instead a nerf, rework into something not unhealth but still useful (just like for PU). Maybe replace the dmg part with chill? Mesmers don't need other dead traits/skills like EM, a broken mechanic nerfed to death not get used at all. EM would be much better without stunbreak on dodge and without the punish-debuff and for that 2 instead 1 conditions removed or something like that. It would have more uses already than it has atm. But before Viquing incs on me again, yes most meta builds have also or even more balance issues than a Core PU Mesmer using Mantra of Pain and these are discussed in the complain threads for these classes and should not justify overperforming or unhealthy mechanics on Mesmer. > > > > > > > > > > > > I was waiting for the mAt core mes :D > > > > > > Yeah no MoD. > > > > > > Sincerely there are way too much period of time where he can't do anything. > > > > > > Ok he can survive but it didn't matter when all your team is dead while you are hidding in stealth. > > > > > > Ok he can do some 80%hp burst but if you look details, once opponents get one shotted once, it was way harder for him to output his burst. Not to say the very low impact in teamfight. > > > > > > In his last game (high level) he does like 3 really usefull bursts (which an other similar class can't do while having more pressure) in a full game which is very low talking about game impact. > > > > > > That said about your suggestions (ofc I will go on because you didn't seems to understand the pro/cons of what you propose.) : > > > > > > With your nerf suggestion to MoP : welcome to one more dead utility because it will not worth it. Before the "up" of might/damage/vulenrability, MoP was used only for 1) heal spam with trait and 2) armor spam with trait. Armor spam is gone and heal spam isn't viable so if you take this skill as his previous state, it will just add to the list of unused skills. > > > > > > Personnaly I will increase the might duration and give it a 24 sec CD so it does what it should do : a on demand spike but not anymore spammable. > > > > > > Or make it a boon removal aoe mantra. > > > > > > But the only thing mantra core mes bring on the table is the high burst, I don't think reducing the spike or the stealth burst window will make core mes more playable. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Boon removal aoe Mantra sounds pretty good to me, if Anet can't balance out the stupid amount of boonaccess on Meta builds than give Mesmers something unique back only they can do that good and with high amount. That is not broken even more would be a nice counter to a broken boonspam state and would give Mesmer some identity back after nerfing most of its useful and skillful utilities like Portal. Very good idea in my view! > > > > > > > > **coughs** > > > > > > > > https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/63733/mantra-of-pain > > > > > > > > Edit: Obviously don't take the numbers as being gospel, it's nearly a year old but the idea of it manipulating boons on foes is what I'd like to see. You know, almost as if this is some kind of mesmer like thing. > > > > > > Sry i barely read class subforums. The idea of boon removal Mantra is great, no matter who was the first had it. Kudos to you then. And yes it fits perfect into Mesmer theme. Why wasn't it created like that in the first place? The idea of high instant max range dmg spammable (no real cds inbetween uses, no need to interrupt or whatever you have to care for at least, nothing...) was bad right from the start. Anet pls do your first good rework without just killing something with nerf to death mentality. These are the kind of senseful changes/ reworks i like to see for stuff i complain about. Any good idea for PU if we are on it? Removing the stealth duration increase was the only thing we could agree until now but it needs some form of compensation. Or we have a better idea how to change the trait into something completely different but still useful. > > > > PU specifically? Not really because the problem isn't necessarily PU. Changing PU isn't easy, it's hard to keep the defensive theme of the line and couple it with stealth. If you decouple the trait from stealth then you have to find something else to activate the trait that fits with the line and purpose where nothing really comes to mind without bloating already overloaded aspects of the class. > > > > To me your problem is mostly stealth stacking and a little bit the long duration of Mass Invis with PU. The problems you have with oneshot mesmer can easily happen on any other class if/when it gets access to smoke fields or any decent stealth duration. We all remember druid being completely busted in the opposite way where it could reset in stealth over and over and never really die because it could easily get 6-9s of stealth, same with original stealth gyro and scrapper. > > > > An idea is to finally address stealth and prevent it stacking so people cannot get 6-20s of stealth, maybe adding forced reveal which would certainly prevent problems in the future for other classes however it in many ways screws over mesmer and thief which are balanced around stealth at their core. Many people would praise ANet and call it a great change, enjoying these classes being much reduced in effectiveness unless you played those 2 classes where you're going to hate it for a long time especially in WvW. You would also have to go through quite a lot of skills in the game and rebalance the duration to be longer while making smoke fields and their associated kits worse in the meta where they may not be strong at all. > > > > Why do I mention it? They would likely have to buff stealth duration for these two classes specifically or reduce cool downs which may not actually help. For mesmer it's fairly easy as much of it's stealth is through skills so you can simply change to 4s or 5s stealth and remove duration from PU making PU simply give protection, swiftness and resistance in stealth. Thief though, they use combo fields and forcing them into SA to be functional is really horrible, you also can't buff combo fields baseline because other classes would get stronger. You could technically make all first minor traits for thief give +1s stealth which would solve the problem but it's a very inelegant solution to say the least. > > > > So you see it's not really an easy solution for what YOU don't like, it may not actually "fix" anything while being detrimental to the whole +1 burst playstyle of thief and mesmer as it's hard to realise the wide spread implications of such a fundamental change to core mechanics. > > How about the idea to make dmg multiplier get disabled (or simply a straight overall dmg reduction down to 30% or something, or just both to be sure rofl) starting after 3 secs of stealth? Means you still can stack stealth for defensive purpose and repositioning but not to oneshot someone without any tell with stacked stealth out of ear shot and visible range and can't bait out more than one dodge or one defensive cd each stealth use. The debuff or however it will be designed will stop after 1 secs the player left stealth, so that all follow up casts will not be affected (like a berserker cast after the oneshot try) but only the skills part of the oneshot combo? This would kill the surprise aspect of any +1 making thief and mesmer having no real advantage to something like rev which has a good alpha but better follow up damage and the same would apply to any other class with a +1 build. They wouldn't ever engage in stealth any more which while you and many others might like it, it's dumbing the game down yet again as you no longer require any map awareness at all which if I remember correctly you're very much against. There's nothing wrong with an engage in stealth as long as the duration isn't stupid like 10s+ and that there's a cost associated with it. For mesmer it's cool down, cast and not having an escape if you use it too much. For thief it's a lack of initiative and so limited follow up skill use after the +1 or again cool down use which is usually their defences, just like how mesmers build for +1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonidrex.5649 Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 > @"apharma.3741" said: > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > > > > @"viquing.8254" said: > > > > > > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > > > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" immagine whinging about mesmer sword auto chain as a RANGER main, while this exists > > > > > > > > > https://imgur.com/gallery/6qqQh54 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > P.S thats from TODAY only :D > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Not sure if it was a good idea to pump this nonsense thread once again to talk to a banned player known for being unreasonable und deconstructive to show him once again that he is not right or just hypocrite with most he says... but whatever. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Did you watch mATs in EU? Misha was playing Core PU Mesmer but he ran it without Mantra of Distraction, what i have seen before a lot in EU. It makes sense because of the reasons i mentioned already: Mantra of Distraction is not needed for the oneshot. Everything Mantra of Distraction adds to the combo you get form f3, just that f3 stuns in addition and not only daze. And this build is meant to just hit the burts and then run (maybe cast some phantasm as follow up pressure before), using an additional stealth skill (gives additional boons, another stunbreak and disengage tool) instead Mantra of Distraction makes much more sense in particular when you run vs decent teams know what to focus, means the Mesmer cannot freecast all time and recharge 5 seconds for free. Also recharging 2 Mantras instead of only one all the time is a lot of downtime the Mesmer can't rly do something else and need to cover like 5 secs of recharge makes him very vulnerable or makes him need to cover it with other defensive cds. Something i always tried to tell OP about the nature of Mantras and why they have lower cds because of the downside/ high costs of such a long recharge. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > For Mantra of Pain i think like 99% of the ppl and Mesmer mains in this forum agree, that it is a stupid mechanic to have such high dmg on an instant max range skill without any cds inbetween recharge and inbetween uses even adding vulnerability- and mightstacks. Still it is only a secondary problem on this build, because it can oneshot the same builds also without Mantra of Pain. But it makes sense to use for more pressure vs bunker builds and for more constant (sustained) dmg. Mantra of Pain needs a rework because it is like PU an unheathy mechanic in general. But at least it needs nerfs in the vulnerability stacks, mightstacks and some cds (in my opinion, i know you disagree Viquing, but i am not talking to you here so no need to restart our dispute). I prefer a rework instead a nerf, rework into something not unhealth but still useful (just like for PU). Maybe replace the dmg part with chill? Mesmers don't need other dead traits/skills like EM, a broken mechanic nerfed to death not get used at all. EM would be much better without stunbreak on dodge and without the punish-debuff and for that 2 instead 1 conditions removed or something like that. It would have more uses already than it has atm. But before Viquing incs on me again, yes most meta builds have also or even more balance issues than a Core PU Mesmer using Mantra of Pain and these are discussed in the complain threads for these classes and should not justify overperforming or unhealthy mechanics on Mesmer. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I was waiting for the mAt core mes :D > > > > > > > Yeah no MoD. > > > > > > > Sincerely there are way too much period of time where he can't do anything. > > > > > > > Ok he can survive but it didn't matter when all your team is dead while you are hidding in stealth. > > > > > > > Ok he can do some 80%hp burst but if you look details, once opponents get one shotted once, it was way harder for him to output his burst. Not to say the very low impact in teamfight. > > > > > > > In his last game (high level) he does like 3 really usefull bursts (which an other similar class can't do while having more pressure) in a full game which is very low talking about game impact. > > > > > > > That said about your suggestions (ofc I will go on because you didn't seems to understand the pro/cons of what you propose.) : > > > > > > > With your nerf suggestion to MoP : welcome to one more dead utility because it will not worth it. Before the "up" of might/damage/vulenrability, MoP was used only for 1) heal spam with trait and 2) armor spam with trait. Armor spam is gone and heal spam isn't viable so if you take this skill as his previous state, it will just add to the list of unused skills. > > > > > > > Personnaly I will increase the might duration and give it a 24 sec CD so it does what it should do : a on demand spike but not anymore spammable. > > > > > > > Or make it a boon removal aoe mantra. > > > > > > > But the only thing mantra core mes bring on the table is the high burst, I don't think reducing the spike or the stealth burst window will make core mes more playable. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Boon removal aoe Mantra sounds pretty good to me, if Anet can't balance out the stupid amount of boonaccess on Meta builds than give Mesmers something unique back only they can do that good and with high amount. That is not broken even more would be a nice counter to a broken boonspam state and would give Mesmer some identity back after nerfing most of its useful and skillful utilities like Portal. Very good idea in my view! > > > > > > > > > > **coughs** > > > > > > > > > > https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/63733/mantra-of-pain > > > > > > > > > > Edit: Obviously don't take the numbers as being gospel, it's nearly a year old but the idea of it manipulating boons on foes is what I'd like to see. You know, almost as if this is some kind of mesmer like thing. > > > > > > > > Sry i barely read class subforums. The idea of boon removal Mantra is great, no matter who was the first had it. Kudos to you then. And yes it fits perfect into Mesmer theme. Why wasn't it created like that in the first place? The idea of high instant max range dmg spammable (no real cds inbetween uses, no need to interrupt or whatever you have to care for at least, nothing...) was bad right from the start. Anet pls do your first good rework without just killing something with nerf to death mentality. These are the kind of senseful changes/ reworks i like to see for stuff i complain about. Any good idea for PU if we are on it? Removing the stealth duration increase was the only thing we could agree until now but it needs some form of compensation. Or we have a better idea how to change the trait into something completely different but still useful. > > > > > > PU specifically? Not really because the problem isn't necessarily PU. Changing PU isn't easy, it's hard to keep the defensive theme of the line and couple it with stealth. If you decouple the trait from stealth then you have to find something else to activate the trait that fits with the line and purpose where nothing really comes to mind without bloating already overloaded aspects of the class. > > > > > > To me your problem is mostly stealth stacking and a little bit the long duration of Mass Invis with PU. The problems you have with oneshot mesmer can easily happen on any other class if/when it gets access to smoke fields or any decent stealth duration. We all remember druid being completely busted in the opposite way where it could reset in stealth over and over and never really die because it could easily get 6-9s of stealth, same with original stealth gyro and scrapper. > > > > > > An idea is to finally address stealth and prevent it stacking so people cannot get 6-20s of stealth, maybe adding forced reveal which would certainly prevent problems in the future for other classes however it in many ways screws over mesmer and thief which are balanced around stealth at their core. Many people would praise ANet and call it a great change, enjoying these classes being much reduced in effectiveness unless you played those 2 classes where you're going to hate it for a long time especially in WvW. You would also have to go through quite a lot of skills in the game and rebalance the duration to be longer while making smoke fields and their associated kits worse in the meta where they may not be strong at all. > > > > > > Why do I mention it? They would likely have to buff stealth duration for these two classes specifically or reduce cool downs which may not actually help. For mesmer it's fairly easy as much of it's stealth is through skills so you can simply change to 4s or 5s stealth and remove duration from PU making PU simply give protection, swiftness and resistance in stealth. Thief though, they use combo fields and forcing them into SA to be functional is really horrible, you also can't buff combo fields baseline because other classes would get stronger. You could technically make all first minor traits for thief give +1s stealth which would solve the problem but it's a very inelegant solution to say the least. > > > > > > So you see it's not really an easy solution for what YOU don't like, it may not actually "fix" anything while being detrimental to the whole +1 burst playstyle of thief and mesmer as it's hard to realise the wide spread implications of such a fundamental change to core mechanics. > > > > How about the idea to make dmg multiplier get disabled (or simply a straight overall dmg reduction down to 30% or something, or just both to be sure rofl) starting after 3 secs of stealth? Means you still can stack stealth for defensive purpose and repositioning but not to oneshot someone without any tell with stacked stealth out of ear shot and visible range and can't bait out more than one dodge or one defensive cd each stealth use. The debuff or however it will be designed will stop after 1 secs the player left stealth, so that all follow up casts will not be affected (like a berserker cast after the oneshot try) but only the skills part of the oneshot combo? > > This would kill the surprise aspect of any +1 making thief and mesmer having no real advantage to something like rev which has a good alpha but better follow up damage and the same would apply to any other class with a +1 build. They wouldn't ever engage in stealth any more which while you and many others might like it, it's dumbing the game down yet again as you no longer require any map awareness at all which if I remember correctly you're very much against. > > There's nothing wrong with an engage in stealth as long as the duration isn't stupid like 10s+ and that there's a cost associated with it. For mesmer it's cool down, cast and not having an escape if you use it too much. For thief it's a lack of initiative and so limited follow up skill use after the +1 or again cool down use which is usually their defences, just like how mesmers build for +1. also, if im not mistaken thief, has to spend some time blasting/jumping through the aoe to get the stealth, it also costs time, initiative ( so you can inf arow around ) you arrive in stealth, but you take longer, MUCH longer. how often is it better to spend extra 10s to be stealth to +1, and how often is it just better to run in and spend that extra 10s applying pressure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bravan.3876 Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 > @"apharma.3741" said: > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > > > > @"viquing.8254" said: > > > > > > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > > > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" immagine whinging about mesmer sword auto chain as a RANGER main, while this exists > > > > > > > > > https://imgur.com/gallery/6qqQh54 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > P.S thats from TODAY only :D > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Not sure if it was a good idea to pump this nonsense thread once again to talk to a banned player known for being unreasonable und deconstructive to show him once again that he is not right or just hypocrite with most he says... but whatever. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Did you watch mATs in EU? Misha was playing Core PU Mesmer but he ran it without Mantra of Distraction, what i have seen before a lot in EU. It makes sense because of the reasons i mentioned already: Mantra of Distraction is not needed for the oneshot. Everything Mantra of Distraction adds to the combo you get form f3, just that f3 stuns in addition and not only daze. And this build is meant to just hit the burts and then run (maybe cast some phantasm as follow up pressure before), using an additional stealth skill (gives additional boons, another stunbreak and disengage tool) instead Mantra of Distraction makes much more sense in particular when you run vs decent teams know what to focus, means the Mesmer cannot freecast all time and recharge 5 seconds for free. Also recharging 2 Mantras instead of only one all the time is a lot of downtime the Mesmer can't rly do something else and need to cover like 5 secs of recharge makes him very vulnerable or makes him need to cover it with other defensive cds. Something i always tried to tell OP about the nature of Mantras and why they have lower cds because of the downside/ high costs of such a long recharge. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > For Mantra of Pain i think like 99% of the ppl and Mesmer mains in this forum agree, that it is a stupid mechanic to have such high dmg on an instant max range skill without any cds inbetween recharge and inbetween uses even adding vulnerability- and mightstacks. Still it is only a secondary problem on this build, because it can oneshot the same builds also without Mantra of Pain. But it makes sense to use for more pressure vs bunker builds and for more constant (sustained) dmg. Mantra of Pain needs a rework because it is like PU an unheathy mechanic in general. But at least it needs nerfs in the vulnerability stacks, mightstacks and some cds (in my opinion, i know you disagree Viquing, but i am not talking to you here so no need to restart our dispute). I prefer a rework instead a nerf, rework into something not unhealth but still useful (just like for PU). Maybe replace the dmg part with chill? Mesmers don't need other dead traits/skills like EM, a broken mechanic nerfed to death not get used at all. EM would be much better without stunbreak on dodge and without the punish-debuff and for that 2 instead 1 conditions removed or something like that. It would have more uses already than it has atm. But before Viquing incs on me again, yes most meta builds have also or even more balance issues than a Core PU Mesmer using Mantra of Pain and these are discussed in the complain threads for these classes and should not justify overperforming or unhealthy mechanics on Mesmer. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I was waiting for the mAt core mes :D > > > > > > > Yeah no MoD. > > > > > > > Sincerely there are way too much period of time where he can't do anything. > > > > > > > Ok he can survive but it didn't matter when all your team is dead while you are hidding in stealth. > > > > > > > Ok he can do some 80%hp burst but if you look details, once opponents get one shotted once, it was way harder for him to output his burst. Not to say the very low impact in teamfight. > > > > > > > In his last game (high level) he does like 3 really usefull bursts (which an other similar class can't do while having more pressure) in a full game which is very low talking about game impact. > > > > > > > That said about your suggestions (ofc I will go on because you didn't seems to understand the pro/cons of what you propose.) : > > > > > > > With your nerf suggestion to MoP : welcome to one more dead utility because it will not worth it. Before the "up" of might/damage/vulenrability, MoP was used only for 1) heal spam with trait and 2) armor spam with trait. Armor spam is gone and heal spam isn't viable so if you take this skill as his previous state, it will just add to the list of unused skills. > > > > > > > Personnaly I will increase the might duration and give it a 24 sec CD so it does what it should do : a on demand spike but not anymore spammable. > > > > > > > Or make it a boon removal aoe mantra. > > > > > > > But the only thing mantra core mes bring on the table is the high burst, I don't think reducing the spike or the stealth burst window will make core mes more playable. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Boon removal aoe Mantra sounds pretty good to me, if Anet can't balance out the stupid amount of boonaccess on Meta builds than give Mesmers something unique back only they can do that good and with high amount. That is not broken even more would be a nice counter to a broken boonspam state and would give Mesmer some identity back after nerfing most of its useful and skillful utilities like Portal. Very good idea in my view! > > > > > > > > > > **coughs** > > > > > > > > > > https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/63733/mantra-of-pain > > > > > > > > > > Edit: Obviously don't take the numbers as being gospel, it's nearly a year old but the idea of it manipulating boons on foes is what I'd like to see. You know, almost as if this is some kind of mesmer like thing. > > > > > > > > Sry i barely read class subforums. The idea of boon removal Mantra is great, no matter who was the first had it. Kudos to you then. And yes it fits perfect into Mesmer theme. Why wasn't it created like that in the first place? The idea of high instant max range dmg spammable (no real cds inbetween uses, no need to interrupt or whatever you have to care for at least, nothing...) was bad right from the start. Anet pls do your first good rework without just killing something with nerf to death mentality. These are the kind of senseful changes/ reworks i like to see for stuff i complain about. Any good idea for PU if we are on it? Removing the stealth duration increase was the only thing we could agree until now but it needs some form of compensation. Or we have a better idea how to change the trait into something completely different but still useful. > > > > > > PU specifically? Not really because the problem isn't necessarily PU. Changing PU isn't easy, it's hard to keep the defensive theme of the line and couple it with stealth. If you decouple the trait from stealth then you have to find something else to activate the trait that fits with the line and purpose where nothing really comes to mind without bloating already overloaded aspects of the class. > > > > > > To me your problem is mostly stealth stacking and a little bit the long duration of Mass Invis with PU. The problems you have with oneshot mesmer can easily happen on any other class if/when it gets access to smoke fields or any decent stealth duration. We all remember druid being completely busted in the opposite way where it could reset in stealth over and over and never really die because it could easily get 6-9s of stealth, same with original stealth gyro and scrapper. > > > > > > An idea is to finally address stealth and prevent it stacking so people cannot get 6-20s of stealth, maybe adding forced reveal which would certainly prevent problems in the future for other classes however it in many ways screws over mesmer and thief which are balanced around stealth at their core. Many people would praise ANet and call it a great change, enjoying these classes being much reduced in effectiveness unless you played those 2 classes where you're going to hate it for a long time especially in WvW. You would also have to go through quite a lot of skills in the game and rebalance the duration to be longer while making smoke fields and their associated kits worse in the meta where they may not be strong at all. > > > > > > Why do I mention it? They would likely have to buff stealth duration for these two classes specifically or reduce cool downs which may not actually help. For mesmer it's fairly easy as much of it's stealth is through skills so you can simply change to 4s or 5s stealth and remove duration from PU making PU simply give protection, swiftness and resistance in stealth. Thief though, they use combo fields and forcing them into SA to be functional is really horrible, you also can't buff combo fields baseline because other classes would get stronger. You could technically make all first minor traits for thief give +1s stealth which would solve the problem but it's a very inelegant solution to say the least. > > > > > > So you see it's not really an easy solution for what YOU don't like, it may not actually "fix" anything while being detrimental to the whole +1 burst playstyle of thief and mesmer as it's hard to realise the wide spread implications of such a fundamental change to core mechanics. > > > > How about the idea to make dmg multiplier get disabled (or simply a straight overall dmg reduction down to 30% or something, or just both to be sure rofl) starting after 3 secs of stealth? Means you still can stack stealth for defensive purpose and repositioning but not to oneshot someone without any tell with stacked stealth out of ear shot and visible range and can't bait out more than one dodge or one defensive cd each stealth use. The debuff or however it will be designed will stop after 1 secs the player left stealth, so that all follow up casts will not be affected (like a berserker cast after the oneshot try) but only the skills part of the oneshot combo? > > This would kill the surprise aspect of any +1 making thief and mesmer having no real advantage to something like rev which has a good alpha but better follow up damage and the same would apply to any other class with a +1 build. They wouldn't ever engage in stealth any more which while you and many others might like it, it's dumbing the game down yet again as you no longer require any map awareness at all which if I remember correctly you're very much against. > > There's nothing wrong with an engage in stealth as long as the duration isn't stupid like 10s+ and that there's a cost associated with it. For mesmer it's cool down, cast and not having an escape if you use it too much. For thief it's a lack of initiative and so limited follow up skill use after the +1 or again cool down use which is usually their defences, just like how mesmers build for +1. Not sure about that, neither current Thief roaming build uses a lot fo stealth, nor Powermirage or as you said Rev. Also Holo as the better roaming build than any Powermes build has only 5 sec of stealth. Daredevil d/p was pretty much the only +1 build used (before Core PU became a thing recently) with a higher amount of stealth to come out of nowhere and it didn't have the dmg to oneshot a full hp medium armour class without any tell. I think something like after 5/6 secs stealth starting dmg debuff would not hurt too much, roaming builds can still stack stealth for sneaky rotations and decaps and in 5/6 secs you still can income into a duel with surprise (at least when using mobility skills) aka ppl would still need to keep track of stealthed rotations. 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bravan.3876 Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > > > > > @"viquing.8254" said: > > > > > > > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" immagine whinging about mesmer sword auto chain as a RANGER main, while this exists > > > > > > > > > > https://imgur.com/gallery/6qqQh54 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > P.S thats from TODAY only :D > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Not sure if it was a good idea to pump this nonsense thread once again to talk to a banned player known for being unreasonable und deconstructive to show him once again that he is not right or just hypocrite with most he says... but whatever. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Did you watch mATs in EU? Misha was playing Core PU Mesmer but he ran it without Mantra of Distraction, what i have seen before a lot in EU. It makes sense because of the reasons i mentioned already: Mantra of Distraction is not needed for the oneshot. Everything Mantra of Distraction adds to the combo you get form f3, just that f3 stuns in addition and not only daze. And this build is meant to just hit the burts and then run (maybe cast some phantasm as follow up pressure before), using an additional stealth skill (gives additional boons, another stunbreak and disengage tool) instead Mantra of Distraction makes much more sense in particular when you run vs decent teams know what to focus, means the Mesmer cannot freecast all time and recharge 5 seconds for free. Also recharging 2 Mantras instead of only one all the time is a lot of downtime the Mesmer can't rly do something else and need to cover like 5 secs of recharge makes him very vulnerable or makes him need to cover it with other defensive cds. Something i always tried to tell OP about the nature of Mantras and why they have lower cds because of the downside/ high costs of such a long recharge. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > For Mantra of Pain i think like 99% of the ppl and Mesmer mains in this forum agree, that it is a stupid mechanic to have such high dmg on an instant max range skill without any cds inbetween recharge and inbetween uses even adding vulnerability- and mightstacks. Still it is only a secondary problem on this build, because it can oneshot the same builds also without Mantra of Pain. But it makes sense to use for more pressure vs bunker builds and for more constant (sustained) dmg. Mantra of Pain needs a rework because it is like PU an unheathy mechanic in general. But at least it needs nerfs in the vulnerability stacks, mightstacks and some cds (in my opinion, i know you disagree Viquing, but i am not talking to you here so no need to restart our dispute). I prefer a rework instead a nerf, rework into something not unhealth but still useful (just like for PU). Maybe replace the dmg part with chill? Mesmers don't need other dead traits/skills like EM, a broken mechanic nerfed to death not get used at all. EM would be much better without stunbreak on dodge and without the punish-debuff and for that 2 instead 1 conditions removed or something like that. It would have more uses already than it has atm. But before Viquing incs on me again, yes most meta builds have also or even more balance issues than a Core PU Mesmer using Mantra of Pain and these are discussed in the complain threads for these classes and should not justify overperforming or unhealthy mechanics on Mesmer. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I was waiting for the mAt core mes :D > > > > > > > > Yeah no MoD. > > > > > > > > Sincerely there are way too much period of time where he can't do anything. > > > > > > > > Ok he can survive but it didn't matter when all your team is dead while you are hidding in stealth. > > > > > > > > Ok he can do some 80%hp burst but if you look details, once opponents get one shotted once, it was way harder for him to output his burst. Not to say the very low impact in teamfight. > > > > > > > > In his last game (high level) he does like 3 really usefull bursts (which an other similar class can't do while having more pressure) in a full game which is very low talking about game impact. > > > > > > > > That said about your suggestions (ofc I will go on because you didn't seems to understand the pro/cons of what you propose.) : > > > > > > > > With your nerf suggestion to MoP : welcome to one more dead utility because it will not worth it. Before the "up" of might/damage/vulenrability, MoP was used only for 1) heal spam with trait and 2) armor spam with trait. Armor spam is gone and heal spam isn't viable so if you take this skill as his previous state, it will just add to the list of unused skills. > > > > > > > > Personnaly I will increase the might duration and give it a 24 sec CD so it does what it should do : a on demand spike but not anymore spammable. > > > > > > > > Or make it a boon removal aoe mantra. > > > > > > > > But the only thing mantra core mes bring on the table is the high burst, I don't think reducing the spike or the stealth burst window will make core mes more playable. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Boon removal aoe Mantra sounds pretty good to me, if Anet can't balance out the stupid amount of boonaccess on Meta builds than give Mesmers something unique back only they can do that good and with high amount. That is not broken even more would be a nice counter to a broken boonspam state and would give Mesmer some identity back after nerfing most of its useful and skillful utilities like Portal. Very good idea in my view! > > > > > > > > > > > > **coughs** > > > > > > > > > > > > https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/63733/mantra-of-pain > > > > > > > > > > > > Edit: Obviously don't take the numbers as being gospel, it's nearly a year old but the idea of it manipulating boons on foes is what I'd like to see. You know, almost as if this is some kind of mesmer like thing. > > > > > > > > > > Sry i barely read class subforums. The idea of boon removal Mantra is great, no matter who was the first had it. Kudos to you then. And yes it fits perfect into Mesmer theme. Why wasn't it created like that in the first place? The idea of high instant max range dmg spammable (no real cds inbetween uses, no need to interrupt or whatever you have to care for at least, nothing...) was bad right from the start. Anet pls do your first good rework without just killing something with nerf to death mentality. These are the kind of senseful changes/ reworks i like to see for stuff i complain about. Any good idea for PU if we are on it? Removing the stealth duration increase was the only thing we could agree until now but it needs some form of compensation. Or we have a better idea how to change the trait into something completely different but still useful. > > > > > > > > PU specifically? Not really because the problem isn't necessarily PU. Changing PU isn't easy, it's hard to keep the defensive theme of the line and couple it with stealth. If you decouple the trait from stealth then you have to find something else to activate the trait that fits with the line and purpose where nothing really comes to mind without bloating already overloaded aspects of the class. > > > > > > > > To me your problem is mostly stealth stacking and a little bit the long duration of Mass Invis with PU. The problems you have with oneshot mesmer can easily happen on any other class if/when it gets access to smoke fields or any decent stealth duration. We all remember druid being completely busted in the opposite way where it could reset in stealth over and over and never really die because it could easily get 6-9s of stealth, same with original stealth gyro and scrapper. > > > > > > > > An idea is to finally address stealth and prevent it stacking so people cannot get 6-20s of stealth, maybe adding forced reveal which would certainly prevent problems in the future for other classes however it in many ways screws over mesmer and thief which are balanced around stealth at their core. Many people would praise ANet and call it a great change, enjoying these classes being much reduced in effectiveness unless you played those 2 classes where you're going to hate it for a long time especially in WvW. You would also have to go through quite a lot of skills in the game and rebalance the duration to be longer while making smoke fields and their associated kits worse in the meta where they may not be strong at all. > > > > > > > > Why do I mention it? They would likely have to buff stealth duration for these two classes specifically or reduce cool downs which may not actually help. For mesmer it's fairly easy as much of it's stealth is through skills so you can simply change to 4s or 5s stealth and remove duration from PU making PU simply give protection, swiftness and resistance in stealth. Thief though, they use combo fields and forcing them into SA to be functional is really horrible, you also can't buff combo fields baseline because other classes would get stronger. You could technically make all first minor traits for thief give +1s stealth which would solve the problem but it's a very inelegant solution to say the least. > > > > > > > > So you see it's not really an easy solution for what YOU don't like, it may not actually "fix" anything while being detrimental to the whole +1 burst playstyle of thief and mesmer as it's hard to realise the wide spread implications of such a fundamental change to core mechanics. > > > > > > How about the idea to make dmg multiplier get disabled (or simply a straight overall dmg reduction down to 30% or something, or just both to be sure rofl) starting after 3 secs of stealth? Means you still can stack stealth for defensive purpose and repositioning but not to oneshot someone without any tell with stacked stealth out of ear shot and visible range and can't bait out more than one dodge or one defensive cd each stealth use. The debuff or however it will be designed will stop after 1 secs the player left stealth, so that all follow up casts will not be affected (like a berserker cast after the oneshot try) but only the skills part of the oneshot combo? > > > > This would kill the surprise aspect of any +1 making thief and mesmer having no real advantage to something like rev which has a good alpha but better follow up damage and the same would apply to any other class with a +1 build. They wouldn't ever engage in stealth any more which while you and many others might like it, it's dumbing the game down yet again as you no longer require any map awareness at all which if I remember correctly you're very much against. > > > > There's nothing wrong with an engage in stealth as long as the duration isn't stupid like 10s+ and that there's a cost associated with it. For mesmer it's cool down, cast and not having an escape if you use it too much. For thief it's a lack of initiative and so limited follow up skill use after the +1 or again cool down use which is usually their defences, just like how mesmers build for +1. > > also, if im not mistaken thief, has to spend some time blasting/jumping through the aoe to get the stealth, it also costs time, initiative ( so you can inf arow around ) > you arrive in stealth, but you take longer, MUCH longer. how often is it better to spend extra 10s to be stealth to +1, and how often is it just better to run in and spend that extra 10s applying pressure. True that is why i don't have a problem with a d/p Thief, just as i have no problem with a oneshot Mesmer (no matter what spec) not having PU. But a PU Core Mesmer just has everyhting too much, good mobility, doesn't need to stack stealth on spot (can stack during running), still has oneshot dmg even with taking a defensive traitline, then when failing often still has blink or another stealth rdy to disengage easy or bait out another stupid amount of defensive skills. I mean yes in coordinated teams with good focus and communication you can counter that, but aside from these situations it is just annoying to fight and the skill lvl - reward relation is not balanced. Even i can play a Core PU Powermesmer and i normally suck hard on any other Powermesmer build. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonidrex.5649 Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 > @"bravan.3876" said: > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > > > > > > @"viquing.8254" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" immagine whinging about mesmer sword auto chain as a RANGER main, while this exists > > > > > > > > > > > https://imgur.com/gallery/6qqQh54 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > P.S thats from TODAY only :D > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Not sure if it was a good idea to pump this nonsense thread once again to talk to a banned player known for being unreasonable und deconstructive to show him once again that he is not right or just hypocrite with most he says... but whatever. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Did you watch mATs in EU? Misha was playing Core PU Mesmer but he ran it without Mantra of Distraction, what i have seen before a lot in EU. It makes sense because of the reasons i mentioned already: Mantra of Distraction is not needed for the oneshot. Everything Mantra of Distraction adds to the combo you get form f3, just that f3 stuns in addition and not only daze. And this build is meant to just hit the burts and then run (maybe cast some phantasm as follow up pressure before), using an additional stealth skill (gives additional boons, another stunbreak and disengage tool) instead Mantra of Distraction makes much more sense in particular when you run vs decent teams know what to focus, means the Mesmer cannot freecast all time and recharge 5 seconds for free. Also recharging 2 Mantras instead of only one all the time is a lot of downtime the Mesmer can't rly do something else and need to cover like 5 secs of recharge makes him very vulnerable or makes him need to cover it with other defensive cds. Something i always tried to tell OP about the nature of Mantras and why they have lower cds because of the downside/ high costs of such a long recharge. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > For Mantra of Pain i think like 99% of the ppl and Mesmer mains in this forum agree, that it is a stupid mechanic to have such high dmg on an instant max range skill without any cds inbetween recharge and inbetween uses even adding vulnerability- and mightstacks. Still it is only a secondary problem on this build, because it can oneshot the same builds also without Mantra of Pain. But it makes sense to use for more pressure vs bunker builds and for more constant (sustained) dmg. Mantra of Pain needs a rework because it is like PU an unheathy mechanic in general. But at least it needs nerfs in the vulnerability stacks, mightstacks and some cds (in my opinion, i know you disagree Viquing, but i am not talking to you here so no need to restart our dispute). I prefer a rework instead a nerf, rework into something not unhealth but still useful (just like for PU). Maybe replace the dmg part with chill? Mesmers don't need other dead traits/skills like EM, a broken mechanic nerfed to death not get used at all. EM would be much better without stunbreak on dodge and without the punish-debuff and for that 2 instead 1 conditions removed or something like that. It would have more uses already than it has atm. But before Viquing incs on me again, yes most meta builds have also or even more balance issues than a Core PU Mesmer using Mantra of Pain and these are discussed in the complain threads for these classes and should not justify overperforming or unhealthy mechanics on Mesmer. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I was waiting for the mAt core mes :D > > > > > > > > > Yeah no MoD. > > > > > > > > > Sincerely there are way too much period of time where he can't do anything. > > > > > > > > > Ok he can survive but it didn't matter when all your team is dead while you are hidding in stealth. > > > > > > > > > Ok he can do some 80%hp burst but if you look details, once opponents get one shotted once, it was way harder for him to output his burst. Not to say the very low impact in teamfight. > > > > > > > > > In his last game (high level) he does like 3 really usefull bursts (which an other similar class can't do while having more pressure) in a full game which is very low talking about game impact. > > > > > > > > > That said about your suggestions (ofc I will go on because you didn't seems to understand the pro/cons of what you propose.) : > > > > > > > > > With your nerf suggestion to MoP : welcome to one more dead utility because it will not worth it. Before the "up" of might/damage/vulenrability, MoP was used only for 1) heal spam with trait and 2) armor spam with trait. Armor spam is gone and heal spam isn't viable so if you take this skill as his previous state, it will just add to the list of unused skills. > > > > > > > > > Personnaly I will increase the might duration and give it a 24 sec CD so it does what it should do : a on demand spike but not anymore spammable. > > > > > > > > > Or make it a boon removal aoe mantra. > > > > > > > > > But the only thing mantra core mes bring on the table is the high burst, I don't think reducing the spike or the stealth burst window will make core mes more playable. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Boon removal aoe Mantra sounds pretty good to me, if Anet can't balance out the stupid amount of boonaccess on Meta builds than give Mesmers something unique back only they can do that good and with high amount. That is not broken even more would be a nice counter to a broken boonspam state and would give Mesmer some identity back after nerfing most of its useful and skillful utilities like Portal. Very good idea in my view! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > **coughs** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/63733/mantra-of-pain > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Edit: Obviously don't take the numbers as being gospel, it's nearly a year old but the idea of it manipulating boons on foes is what I'd like to see. You know, almost as if this is some kind of mesmer like thing. > > > > > > > > > > > > Sry i barely read class subforums. The idea of boon removal Mantra is great, no matter who was the first had it. Kudos to you then. And yes it fits perfect into Mesmer theme. Why wasn't it created like that in the first place? The idea of high instant max range dmg spammable (no real cds inbetween uses, no need to interrupt or whatever you have to care for at least, nothing...) was bad right from the start. Anet pls do your first good rework without just killing something with nerf to death mentality. These are the kind of senseful changes/ reworks i like to see for stuff i complain about. Any good idea for PU if we are on it? Removing the stealth duration increase was the only thing we could agree until now but it needs some form of compensation. Or we have a better idea how to change the trait into something completely different but still useful. > > > > > > > > > > PU specifically? Not really because the problem isn't necessarily PU. Changing PU isn't easy, it's hard to keep the defensive theme of the line and couple it with stealth. If you decouple the trait from stealth then you have to find something else to activate the trait that fits with the line and purpose where nothing really comes to mind without bloating already overloaded aspects of the class. > > > > > > > > > > To me your problem is mostly stealth stacking and a little bit the long duration of Mass Invis with PU. The problems you have with oneshot mesmer can easily happen on any other class if/when it gets access to smoke fields or any decent stealth duration. We all remember druid being completely busted in the opposite way where it could reset in stealth over and over and never really die because it could easily get 6-9s of stealth, same with original stealth gyro and scrapper. > > > > > > > > > > An idea is to finally address stealth and prevent it stacking so people cannot get 6-20s of stealth, maybe adding forced reveal which would certainly prevent problems in the future for other classes however it in many ways screws over mesmer and thief which are balanced around stealth at their core. Many people would praise ANet and call it a great change, enjoying these classes being much reduced in effectiveness unless you played those 2 classes where you're going to hate it for a long time especially in WvW. You would also have to go through quite a lot of skills in the game and rebalance the duration to be longer while making smoke fields and their associated kits worse in the meta where they may not be strong at all. > > > > > > > > > > Why do I mention it? They would likely have to buff stealth duration for these two classes specifically or reduce cool downs which may not actually help. For mesmer it's fairly easy as much of it's stealth is through skills so you can simply change to 4s or 5s stealth and remove duration from PU making PU simply give protection, swiftness and resistance in stealth. Thief though, they use combo fields and forcing them into SA to be functional is really horrible, you also can't buff combo fields baseline because other classes would get stronger. You could technically make all first minor traits for thief give +1s stealth which would solve the problem but it's a very inelegant solution to say the least. > > > > > > > > > > So you see it's not really an easy solution for what YOU don't like, it may not actually "fix" anything while being detrimental to the whole +1 burst playstyle of thief and mesmer as it's hard to realise the wide spread implications of such a fundamental change to core mechanics. > > > > > > > > How about the idea to make dmg multiplier get disabled (or simply a straight overall dmg reduction down to 30% or something, or just both to be sure rofl) starting after 3 secs of stealth? Means you still can stack stealth for defensive purpose and repositioning but not to oneshot someone without any tell with stacked stealth out of ear shot and visible range and can't bait out more than one dodge or one defensive cd each stealth use. The debuff or however it will be designed will stop after 1 secs the player left stealth, so that all follow up casts will not be affected (like a berserker cast after the oneshot try) but only the skills part of the oneshot combo? > > > > > > This would kill the surprise aspect of any +1 making thief and mesmer having no real advantage to something like rev which has a good alpha but better follow up damage and the same would apply to any other class with a +1 build. They wouldn't ever engage in stealth any more which while you and many others might like it, it's dumbing the game down yet again as you no longer require any map awareness at all which if I remember correctly you're very much against. > > > > > > There's nothing wrong with an engage in stealth as long as the duration isn't stupid like 10s+ and that there's a cost associated with it. For mesmer it's cool down, cast and not having an escape if you use it too much. For thief it's a lack of initiative and so limited follow up skill use after the +1 or again cool down use which is usually their defences, just like how mesmers build for +1. > > > > also, if im not mistaken thief, has to spend some time blasting/jumping through the aoe to get the stealth, it also costs time, initiative ( so you can inf arow around ) > > you arrive in stealth, but you take longer, MUCH longer. how often is it better to spend extra 10s to be stealth to +1, and how often is it just better to run in and spend that extra 10s applying pressure. > > True that is why i don't have a problem with a d/p Thief, just as i have no problem with a oneshot Mesmer (no matter what spec) not having PU. But a PU Core Mesmer just has everyhting too much, good mobility, doesn't need to stack stealth on spot (can stack during running), still has oneshot dmg even with taking a defensive traitline, then when failing often still has blink or another stealth rdy to disengage easy or bait out another stupid amount of defensive skills. I mean yes in coordinated teams with good focus and communication you can counter that, but aside from these situations it is just annoying to fight and the skill lvl - reward relation is not balanced. Even i can play a Core PU Powermesmer and i normally suck hard on any other Powermesmer build. i dont know if its that wrong tbh, 1shot power mesmer needs different skill, atention to details, ability to focus on several fights at once, and knowing the map/enemy cooldowns,patters. its not a duelist where warrior fights holo and for 40s nonstop they try to outdo one another, its different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
viquing.8254 Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 > @"bravan.3876" said: > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > > > > > > @"viquing.8254" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" immagine whinging about mesmer sword auto chain as a RANGER main, while this exists > > > > > > > > > > > https://imgur.com/gallery/6qqQh54 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > P.S thats from TODAY only :D > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Not sure if it was a good idea to pump this nonsense thread once again to talk to a banned player known for being unreasonable und deconstructive to show him once again that he is not right or just hypocrite with most he says... but whatever. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Did you watch mATs in EU? Misha was playing Core PU Mesmer but he ran it without Mantra of Distraction, what i have seen before a lot in EU. It makes sense because of the reasons i mentioned already: Mantra of Distraction is not needed for the oneshot. Everything Mantra of Distraction adds to the combo you get form f3, just that f3 stuns in addition and not only daze. And this build is meant to just hit the burts and then run (maybe cast some phantasm as follow up pressure before), using an additional stealth skill (gives additional boons, another stunbreak and disengage tool) instead Mantra of Distraction makes much more sense in particular when you run vs decent teams know what to focus, means the Mesmer cannot freecast all time and recharge 5 seconds for free. Also recharging 2 Mantras instead of only one all the time is a lot of downtime the Mesmer can't rly do something else and need to cover like 5 secs of recharge makes him very vulnerable or makes him need to cover it with other defensive cds. Something i always tried to tell OP about the nature of Mantras and why they have lower cds because of the downside/ high costs of such a long recharge. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > For Mantra of Pain i think like 99% of the ppl and Mesmer mains in this forum agree, that it is a stupid mechanic to have such high dmg on an instant max range skill without any cds inbetween recharge and inbetween uses even adding vulnerability- and mightstacks. Still it is only a secondary problem on this build, because it can oneshot the same builds also without Mantra of Pain. But it makes sense to use for more pressure vs bunker builds and for more constant (sustained) dmg. Mantra of Pain needs a rework because it is like PU an unheathy mechanic in general. But at least it needs nerfs in the vulnerability stacks, mightstacks and some cds (in my opinion, i know you disagree Viquing, but i am not talking to you here so no need to restart our dispute). I prefer a rework instead a nerf, rework into something not unhealth but still useful (just like for PU). Maybe replace the dmg part with chill? Mesmers don't need other dead traits/skills like EM, a broken mechanic nerfed to death not get used at all. EM would be much better without stunbreak on dodge and without the punish-debuff and for that 2 instead 1 conditions removed or something like that. It would have more uses already than it has atm. But before Viquing incs on me again, yes most meta builds have also or even more balance issues than a Core PU Mesmer using Mantra of Pain and these are discussed in the complain threads for these classes and should not justify overperforming or unhealthy mechanics on Mesmer. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I was waiting for the mAt core mes :D > > > > > > > > > Yeah no MoD. > > > > > > > > > Sincerely there are way too much period of time where he can't do anything. > > > > > > > > > Ok he can survive but it didn't matter when all your team is dead while you are hidding in stealth. > > > > > > > > > Ok he can do some 80%hp burst but if you look details, once opponents get one shotted once, it was way harder for him to output his burst. Not to say the very low impact in teamfight. > > > > > > > > > In his last game (high level) he does like 3 really usefull bursts (which an other similar class can't do while having more pressure) in a full game which is very low talking about game impact. > > > > > > > > > That said about your suggestions (ofc I will go on because you didn't seems to understand the pro/cons of what you propose.) : > > > > > > > > > With your nerf suggestion to MoP : welcome to one more dead utility because it will not worth it. Before the "up" of might/damage/vulenrability, MoP was used only for 1) heal spam with trait and 2) armor spam with trait. Armor spam is gone and heal spam isn't viable so if you take this skill as his previous state, it will just add to the list of unused skills. > > > > > > > > > Personnaly I will increase the might duration and give it a 24 sec CD so it does what it should do : a on demand spike but not anymore spammable. > > > > > > > > > Or make it a boon removal aoe mantra. > > > > > > > > > But the only thing mantra core mes bring on the table is the high burst, I don't think reducing the spike or the stealth burst window will make core mes more playable. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Boon removal aoe Mantra sounds pretty good to me, if Anet can't balance out the stupid amount of boonaccess on Meta builds than give Mesmers something unique back only they can do that good and with high amount. That is not broken even more would be a nice counter to a broken boonspam state and would give Mesmer some identity back after nerfing most of its useful and skillful utilities like Portal. Very good idea in my view! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > **coughs** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/63733/mantra-of-pain > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Edit: Obviously don't take the numbers as being gospel, it's nearly a year old but the idea of it manipulating boons on foes is what I'd like to see. You know, almost as if this is some kind of mesmer like thing. > > > > > > > > > > > > Sry i barely read class subforums. The idea of boon removal Mantra is great, no matter who was the first had it. Kudos to you then. And yes it fits perfect into Mesmer theme. Why wasn't it created like that in the first place? The idea of high instant max range dmg spammable (no real cds inbetween uses, no need to interrupt or whatever you have to care for at least, nothing...) was bad right from the start. Anet pls do your first good rework without just killing something with nerf to death mentality. These are the kind of senseful changes/ reworks i like to see for stuff i complain about. Any good idea for PU if we are on it? Removing the stealth duration increase was the only thing we could agree until now but it needs some form of compensation. Or we have a better idea how to change the trait into something completely different but still useful. > > > > > > > > > > PU specifically? Not really because the problem isn't necessarily PU. Changing PU isn't easy, it's hard to keep the defensive theme of the line and couple it with stealth. If you decouple the trait from stealth then you have to find something else to activate the trait that fits with the line and purpose where nothing really comes to mind without bloating already overloaded aspects of the class. > > > > > > > > > > To me your problem is mostly stealth stacking and a little bit the long duration of Mass Invis with PU. The problems you have with oneshot mesmer can easily happen on any other class if/when it gets access to smoke fields or any decent stealth duration. We all remember druid being completely busted in the opposite way where it could reset in stealth over and over and never really die because it could easily get 6-9s of stealth, same with original stealth gyro and scrapper. > > > > > > > > > > An idea is to finally address stealth and prevent it stacking so people cannot get 6-20s of stealth, maybe adding forced reveal which would certainly prevent problems in the future for other classes however it in many ways screws over mesmer and thief which are balanced around stealth at their core. Many people would praise ANet and call it a great change, enjoying these classes being much reduced in effectiveness unless you played those 2 classes where you're going to hate it for a long time especially in WvW. You would also have to go through quite a lot of skills in the game and rebalance the duration to be longer while making smoke fields and their associated kits worse in the meta where they may not be strong at all. > > > > > > > > > > Why do I mention it? They would likely have to buff stealth duration for these two classes specifically or reduce cool downs which may not actually help. For mesmer it's fairly easy as much of it's stealth is through skills so you can simply change to 4s or 5s stealth and remove duration from PU making PU simply give protection, swiftness and resistance in stealth. Thief though, they use combo fields and forcing them into SA to be functional is really horrible, you also can't buff combo fields baseline because other classes would get stronger. You could technically make all first minor traits for thief give +1s stealth which would solve the problem but it's a very inelegant solution to say the least. > > > > > > > > > > So you see it's not really an easy solution for what YOU don't like, it may not actually "fix" anything while being detrimental to the whole +1 burst playstyle of thief and mesmer as it's hard to realise the wide spread implications of such a fundamental change to core mechanics. > > > > > > > > How about the idea to make dmg multiplier get disabled (or simply a straight overall dmg reduction down to 30% or something, or just both to be sure rofl) starting after 3 secs of stealth? Means you still can stack stealth for defensive purpose and repositioning but not to oneshot someone without any tell with stacked stealth out of ear shot and visible range and can't bait out more than one dodge or one defensive cd each stealth use. The debuff or however it will be designed will stop after 1 secs the player left stealth, so that all follow up casts will not be affected (like a berserker cast after the oneshot try) but only the skills part of the oneshot combo? > > > > > > This would kill the surprise aspect of any +1 making thief and mesmer having no real advantage to something like rev which has a good alpha but better follow up damage and the same would apply to any other class with a +1 build. They wouldn't ever engage in stealth any more which while you and many others might like it, it's dumbing the game down yet again as you no longer require any map awareness at all which if I remember correctly you're very much against. > > > > > > There's nothing wrong with an engage in stealth as long as the duration isn't stupid like 10s+ and that there's a cost associated with it. For mesmer it's cool down, cast and not having an escape if you use it too much. For thief it's a lack of initiative and so limited follow up skill use after the +1 or again cool down use which is usually their defences, just like how mesmers build for +1. > > > > also, if im not mistaken thief, has to spend some time blasting/jumping through the aoe to get the stealth, it also costs time, initiative ( so you can inf arow around ) > > you arrive in stealth, but you take longer, MUCH longer. how often is it better to spend extra 10s to be stealth to +1, and how often is it just better to run in and spend that extra 10s applying pressure. > > True that is why i don't have a problem with a d/p Thief, just as i have no problem with a oneshot Mesmer (no matter what spec) not having PU. But a PU Core Mesmer just has everyhting too much, good mobility, doesn't need to stack stealth on spot (can stack during running), still has oneshot dmg even with taking a defensive traitline, then when failing often still has blink or another stealth rdy to disengage easy or bait out another stupid amount of defensive skills. I mean yes in coordinated teams with good focus and communication you can counter that, but aside from these situations it is just annoying to fight and the skill lvl - reward relation is not balanced. Even i can play a Core PU Powermesmer and i normally suck hard on any other Powermesmer build. Hmm "everything" mean a burst every 12 to 18 sec. Contrary to what you think PU didn't give "everything". Carefull with your words, it's hasn't good condiclear, it hasn't good map mobility, it hasn't good healing sustain, it has only 1 sec stun every 18 sec as hard CC (target can still evade during MoD.) to properly burst, and most importantly : it hasn't good dps (out of burst pressure.). I mean talking about "everything" I can easily prove how meta classe have more of everything. Mantra core mesmer has **stealth** and **burst**, that's all and they are linked. If you want to nerf one of the two thing it has but don't provide other thing it will just die while not even being meta. Less burst mean stealth isn't worth it, less stealth mean less effective burst. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bravan.3876 Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 > @"viquing.8254" said: > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > > > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"viquing.8254" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" immagine whinging about mesmer sword auto chain as a RANGER main, while this exists > > > > > > > > > > > > https://imgur.com/gallery/6qqQh54 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > P.S thats from TODAY only :D > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Not sure if it was a good idea to pump this nonsense thread once again to talk to a banned player known for being unreasonable und deconstructive to show him once again that he is not right or just hypocrite with most he says... but whatever. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Did you watch mATs in EU? Misha was playing Core PU Mesmer but he ran it without Mantra of Distraction, what i have seen before a lot in EU. It makes sense because of the reasons i mentioned already: Mantra of Distraction is not needed for the oneshot. Everything Mantra of Distraction adds to the combo you get form f3, just that f3 stuns in addition and not only daze. And this build is meant to just hit the burts and then run (maybe cast some phantasm as follow up pressure before), using an additional stealth skill (gives additional boons, another stunbreak and disengage tool) instead Mantra of Distraction makes much more sense in particular when you run vs decent teams know what to focus, means the Mesmer cannot freecast all time and recharge 5 seconds for free. Also recharging 2 Mantras instead of only one all the time is a lot of downtime the Mesmer can't rly do something else and need to cover like 5 secs of recharge makes him very vulnerable or makes him need to cover it with other defensive cds. Something i always tried to tell OP about the nature of Mantras and why they have lower cds because of the downside/ high costs of such a long recharge. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > For Mantra of Pain i think like 99% of the ppl and Mesmer mains in this forum agree, that it is a stupid mechanic to have such high dmg on an instant max range skill without any cds inbetween recharge and inbetween uses even adding vulnerability- and mightstacks. Still it is only a secondary problem on this build, because it can oneshot the same builds also without Mantra of Pain. But it makes sense to use for more pressure vs bunker builds and for more constant (sustained) dmg. Mantra of Pain needs a rework because it is like PU an unheathy mechanic in general. But at least it needs nerfs in the vulnerability stacks, mightstacks and some cds (in my opinion, i know you disagree Viquing, but i am not talking to you here so no need to restart our dispute). I prefer a rework instead a nerf, rework into something not unhealth but still useful (just like for PU). Maybe replace the dmg part with chill? Mesmers don't need other dead traits/skills like EM, a broken mechanic nerfed to death not get used at all. EM would be much better without stunbreak on dodge and without the punish-debuff and for that 2 instead 1 conditions removed or something like that. It would have more uses already than it has atm. But before Viquing incs on me again, yes most meta builds have also or even more balance issues than a Core PU Mesmer using Mantra of Pain and these are discussed in the complain threads for these classes and should not justify overperforming or unhealthy mechanics on Mesmer. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I was waiting for the mAt core mes :D > > > > > > > > > > Yeah no MoD. > > > > > > > > > > Sincerely there are way too much period of time where he can't do anything. > > > > > > > > > > Ok he can survive but it didn't matter when all your team is dead while you are hidding in stealth. > > > > > > > > > > Ok he can do some 80%hp burst but if you look details, once opponents get one shotted once, it was way harder for him to output his burst. Not to say the very low impact in teamfight. > > > > > > > > > > In his last game (high level) he does like 3 really usefull bursts (which an other similar class can't do while having more pressure) in a full game which is very low talking about game impact. > > > > > > > > > > That said about your suggestions (ofc I will go on because you didn't seems to understand the pro/cons of what you propose.) : > > > > > > > > > > With your nerf suggestion to MoP : welcome to one more dead utility because it will not worth it. Before the "up" of might/damage/vulenrability, MoP was used only for 1) heal spam with trait and 2) armor spam with trait. Armor spam is gone and heal spam isn't viable so if you take this skill as his previous state, it will just add to the list of unused skills. > > > > > > > > > > Personnaly I will increase the might duration and give it a 24 sec CD so it does what it should do : a on demand spike but not anymore spammable. > > > > > > > > > > Or make it a boon removal aoe mantra. > > > > > > > > > > But the only thing mantra core mes bring on the table is the high burst, I don't think reducing the spike or the stealth burst window will make core mes more playable. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Boon removal aoe Mantra sounds pretty good to me, if Anet can't balance out the stupid amount of boonaccess on Meta builds than give Mesmers something unique back only they can do that good and with high amount. That is not broken even more would be a nice counter to a broken boonspam state and would give Mesmer some identity back after nerfing most of its useful and skillful utilities like Portal. Very good idea in my view! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > **coughs** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/63733/mantra-of-pain > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Edit: Obviously don't take the numbers as being gospel, it's nearly a year old but the idea of it manipulating boons on foes is what I'd like to see. You know, almost as if this is some kind of mesmer like thing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sry i barely read class subforums. The idea of boon removal Mantra is great, no matter who was the first had it. Kudos to you then. And yes it fits perfect into Mesmer theme. Why wasn't it created like that in the first place? The idea of high instant max range dmg spammable (no real cds inbetween uses, no need to interrupt or whatever you have to care for at least, nothing...) was bad right from the start. Anet pls do your first good rework without just killing something with nerf to death mentality. These are the kind of senseful changes/ reworks i like to see for stuff i complain about. Any good idea for PU if we are on it? Removing the stealth duration increase was the only thing we could agree until now but it needs some form of compensation. Or we have a better idea how to change the trait into something completely different but still useful. > > > > > > > > > > > > PU specifically? Not really because the problem isn't necessarily PU. Changing PU isn't easy, it's hard to keep the defensive theme of the line and couple it with stealth. If you decouple the trait from stealth then you have to find something else to activate the trait that fits with the line and purpose where nothing really comes to mind without bloating already overloaded aspects of the class. > > > > > > > > > > > > To me your problem is mostly stealth stacking and a little bit the long duration of Mass Invis with PU. The problems you have with oneshot mesmer can easily happen on any other class if/when it gets access to smoke fields or any decent stealth duration. We all remember druid being completely busted in the opposite way where it could reset in stealth over and over and never really die because it could easily get 6-9s of stealth, same with original stealth gyro and scrapper. > > > > > > > > > > > > An idea is to finally address stealth and prevent it stacking so people cannot get 6-20s of stealth, maybe adding forced reveal which would certainly prevent problems in the future for other classes however it in many ways screws over mesmer and thief which are balanced around stealth at their core. Many people would praise ANet and call it a great change, enjoying these classes being much reduced in effectiveness unless you played those 2 classes where you're going to hate it for a long time especially in WvW. You would also have to go through quite a lot of skills in the game and rebalance the duration to be longer while making smoke fields and their associated kits worse in the meta where they may not be strong at all. > > > > > > > > > > > > Why do I mention it? They would likely have to buff stealth duration for these two classes specifically or reduce cool downs which may not actually help. For mesmer it's fairly easy as much of it's stealth is through skills so you can simply change to 4s or 5s stealth and remove duration from PU making PU simply give protection, swiftness and resistance in stealth. Thief though, they use combo fields and forcing them into SA to be functional is really horrible, you also can't buff combo fields baseline because other classes would get stronger. You could technically make all first minor traits for thief give +1s stealth which would solve the problem but it's a very inelegant solution to say the least. > > > > > > > > > > > > So you see it's not really an easy solution for what YOU don't like, it may not actually "fix" anything while being detrimental to the whole +1 burst playstyle of thief and mesmer as it's hard to realise the wide spread implications of such a fundamental change to core mechanics. > > > > > > > > > > How about the idea to make dmg multiplier get disabled (or simply a straight overall dmg reduction down to 30% or something, or just both to be sure rofl) starting after 3 secs of stealth? Means you still can stack stealth for defensive purpose and repositioning but not to oneshot someone without any tell with stacked stealth out of ear shot and visible range and can't bait out more than one dodge or one defensive cd each stealth use. The debuff or however it will be designed will stop after 1 secs the player left stealth, so that all follow up casts will not be affected (like a berserker cast after the oneshot try) but only the skills part of the oneshot combo? > > > > > > > > This would kill the surprise aspect of any +1 making thief and mesmer having no real advantage to something like rev which has a good alpha but better follow up damage and the same would apply to any other class with a +1 build. They wouldn't ever engage in stealth any more which while you and many others might like it, it's dumbing the game down yet again as you no longer require any map awareness at all which if I remember correctly you're very much against. > > > > > > > > There's nothing wrong with an engage in stealth as long as the duration isn't stupid like 10s+ and that there's a cost associated with it. For mesmer it's cool down, cast and not having an escape if you use it too much. For thief it's a lack of initiative and so limited follow up skill use after the +1 or again cool down use which is usually their defences, just like how mesmers build for +1. > > > > > > also, if im not mistaken thief, has to spend some time blasting/jumping through the aoe to get the stealth, it also costs time, initiative ( so you can inf arow around ) > > > you arrive in stealth, but you take longer, MUCH longer. how often is it better to spend extra 10s to be stealth to +1, and how often is it just better to run in and spend that extra 10s applying pressure. > > > > True that is why i don't have a problem with a d/p Thief, just as i have no problem with a oneshot Mesmer (no matter what spec) not having PU. But a PU Core Mesmer just has everyhting too much, good mobility, doesn't need to stack stealth on spot (can stack during running), still has oneshot dmg even with taking a defensive traitline, then when failing often still has blink or another stealth rdy to disengage easy or bait out another stupid amount of defensive skills. I mean yes in coordinated teams with good focus and communication you can counter that, but aside from these situations it is just annoying to fight and the skill lvl - reward relation is not balanced. Even i can play a Core PU Powermesmer and i normally suck hard on any other Powermesmer build. > > Hmm "everything" mean a burst every 12 to 18 sec. Contrary to what you think PU didn't give "everything". > Carefull with your words, it's hasn't good condiclear, it hasn't good map mobility, it hasn't good healing sustain, it has only 1 sec stun every 18 sec as hard CC (target can still evade during MoD.) to properly burst, and most importantly : it hasn't good dps (out of burst pressure.). > I mean talking about "everything" I can easily prove how meta classe have more of everything. > Mantra core mesmer has **stealth** and **burst**, that's all and they are linked. If you want to nerf one of the two thing it has but don't provide other thing it will just die while not even being meta. > Less burst mean stealth isn't worth it, less stealth mean less effective burst. I meant more of everything than a good roaming +1 build needs. If you all don't like the stealth dmg debuff then all i can imagine is delete the stealthduration from PU but increase boonduration as compensation? 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Leonidrex.5649 Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 > @"bravan.3876" said: > > @"viquing.8254" said: > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > > > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"viquing.8254" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" immagine whinging about mesmer sword auto chain as a RANGER main, while this exists > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://imgur.com/gallery/6qqQh54 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > P.S thats from TODAY only :D > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Not sure if it was a good idea to pump this nonsense thread once again to talk to a banned player known for being unreasonable und deconstructive to show him once again that he is not right or just hypocrite with most he says... but whatever. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Did you watch mATs in EU? Misha was playing Core PU Mesmer but he ran it without Mantra of Distraction, what i have seen before a lot in EU. It makes sense because of the reasons i mentioned already: Mantra of Distraction is not needed for the oneshot. Everything Mantra of Distraction adds to the combo you get form f3, just that f3 stuns in addition and not only daze. And this build is meant to just hit the burts and then run (maybe cast some phantasm as follow up pressure before), using an additional stealth skill (gives additional boons, another stunbreak and disengage tool) instead Mantra of Distraction makes much more sense in particular when you run vs decent teams know what to focus, means the Mesmer cannot freecast all time and recharge 5 seconds for free. Also recharging 2 Mantras instead of only one all the time is a lot of downtime the Mesmer can't rly do something else and need to cover like 5 secs of recharge makes him very vulnerable or makes him need to cover it with other defensive cds. Something i always tried to tell OP about the nature of Mantras and why they have lower cds because of the downside/ high costs of such a long recharge. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > For Mantra of Pain i think like 99% of the ppl and Mesmer mains in this forum agree, that it is a stupid mechanic to have such high dmg on an instant max range skill without any cds inbetween recharge and inbetween uses even adding vulnerability- and mightstacks. Still it is only a secondary problem on this build, because it can oneshot the same builds also without Mantra of Pain. But it makes sense to use for more pressure vs bunker builds and for more constant (sustained) dmg. Mantra of Pain needs a rework because it is like PU an unheathy mechanic in general. But at least it needs nerfs in the vulnerability stacks, mightstacks and some cds (in my opinion, i know you disagree Viquing, but i am not talking to you here so no need to restart our dispute). I prefer a rework instead a nerf, rework into something not unhealth but still useful (just like for PU). Maybe replace the dmg part with chill? Mesmers don't need other dead traits/skills like EM, a broken mechanic nerfed to death not get used at all. EM would be much better without stunbreak on dodge and without the punish-debuff and for that 2 instead 1 conditions removed or something like that. It would have more uses already than it has atm. But before Viquing incs on me again, yes most meta builds have also or even more balance issues than a Core PU Mesmer using Mantra of Pain and these are discussed in the complain threads for these classes and should not justify overperforming or unhealthy mechanics on Mesmer. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I was waiting for the mAt core mes :D > > > > > > > > > > > Yeah no MoD. > > > > > > > > > > > Sincerely there are way too much period of time where he can't do anything. > > > > > > > > > > > Ok he can survive but it didn't matter when all your team is dead while you are hidding in stealth. > > > > > > > > > > > Ok he can do some 80%hp burst but if you look details, once opponents get one shotted once, it was way harder for him to output his burst. Not to say the very low impact in teamfight. > > > > > > > > > > > In his last game (high level) he does like 3 really usefull bursts (which an other similar class can't do while having more pressure) in a full game which is very low talking about game impact. > > > > > > > > > > > That said about your suggestions (ofc I will go on because you didn't seems to understand the pro/cons of what you propose.) : > > > > > > > > > > > With your nerf suggestion to MoP : welcome to one more dead utility because it will not worth it. Before the "up" of might/damage/vulenrability, MoP was used only for 1) heal spam with trait and 2) armor spam with trait. Armor spam is gone and heal spam isn't viable so if you take this skill as his previous state, it will just add to the list of unused skills. > > > > > > > > > > > Personnaly I will increase the might duration and give it a 24 sec CD so it does what it should do : a on demand spike but not anymore spammable. > > > > > > > > > > > Or make it a boon removal aoe mantra. > > > > > > > > > > > But the only thing mantra core mes bring on the table is the high burst, I don't think reducing the spike or the stealth burst window will make core mes more playable. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Boon removal aoe Mantra sounds pretty good to me, if Anet can't balance out the stupid amount of boonaccess on Meta builds than give Mesmers something unique back only they can do that good and with high amount. That is not broken even more would be a nice counter to a broken boonspam state and would give Mesmer some identity back after nerfing most of its useful and skillful utilities like Portal. Very good idea in my view! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > **coughs** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/63733/mantra-of-pain > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Edit: Obviously don't take the numbers as being gospel, it's nearly a year old but the idea of it manipulating boons on foes is what I'd like to see. You know, almost as if this is some kind of mesmer like thing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sry i barely read class subforums. The idea of boon removal Mantra is great, no matter who was the first had it. Kudos to you then. And yes it fits perfect into Mesmer theme. Why wasn't it created like that in the first place? The idea of high instant max range dmg spammable (no real cds inbetween uses, no need to interrupt or whatever you have to care for at least, nothing...) was bad right from the start. Anet pls do your first good rework without just killing something with nerf to death mentality. These are the kind of senseful changes/ reworks i like to see for stuff i complain about. Any good idea for PU if we are on it? Removing the stealth duration increase was the only thing we could agree until now but it needs some form of compensation. Or we have a better idea how to change the trait into something completely different but still useful. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > PU specifically? Not really because the problem isn't necessarily PU. Changing PU isn't easy, it's hard to keep the defensive theme of the line and couple it with stealth. If you decouple the trait from stealth then you have to find something else to activate the trait that fits with the line and purpose where nothing really comes to mind without bloating already overloaded aspects of the class. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To me your problem is mostly stealth stacking and a little bit the long duration of Mass Invis with PU. The problems you have with oneshot mesmer can easily happen on any other class if/when it gets access to smoke fields or any decent stealth duration. We all remember druid being completely busted in the opposite way where it could reset in stealth over and over and never really die because it could easily get 6-9s of stealth, same with original stealth gyro and scrapper. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > An idea is to finally address stealth and prevent it stacking so people cannot get 6-20s of stealth, maybe adding forced reveal which would certainly prevent problems in the future for other classes however it in many ways screws over mesmer and thief which are balanced around stealth at their core. Many people would praise ANet and call it a great change, enjoying these classes being much reduced in effectiveness unless you played those 2 classes where you're going to hate it for a long time especially in WvW. You would also have to go through quite a lot of skills in the game and rebalance the duration to be longer while making smoke fields and their associated kits worse in the meta where they may not be strong at all. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why do I mention it? They would likely have to buff stealth duration for these two classes specifically or reduce cool downs which may not actually help. For mesmer it's fairly easy as much of it's stealth is through skills so you can simply change to 4s or 5s stealth and remove duration from PU making PU simply give protection, swiftness and resistance in stealth. Thief though, they use combo fields and forcing them into SA to be functional is really horrible, you also can't buff combo fields baseline because other classes would get stronger. You could technically make all first minor traits for thief give +1s stealth which would solve the problem but it's a very inelegant solution to say the least. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So you see it's not really an easy solution for what YOU don't like, it may not actually "fix" anything while being detrimental to the whole +1 burst playstyle of thief and mesmer as it's hard to realise the wide spread implications of such a fundamental change to core mechanics. > > > > > > > > > > > > How about the idea to make dmg multiplier get disabled (or simply a straight overall dmg reduction down to 30% or something, or just both to be sure rofl) starting after 3 secs of stealth? Means you still can stack stealth for defensive purpose and repositioning but not to oneshot someone without any tell with stacked stealth out of ear shot and visible range and can't bait out more than one dodge or one defensive cd each stealth use. The debuff or however it will be designed will stop after 1 secs the player left stealth, so that all follow up casts will not be affected (like a berserker cast after the oneshot try) but only the skills part of the oneshot combo? > > > > > > > > > > This would kill the surprise aspect of any +1 making thief and mesmer having no real advantage to something like rev which has a good alpha but better follow up damage and the same would apply to any other class with a +1 build. They wouldn't ever engage in stealth any more which while you and many others might like it, it's dumbing the game down yet again as you no longer require any map awareness at all which if I remember correctly you're very much against. > > > > > > > > > > There's nothing wrong with an engage in stealth as long as the duration isn't stupid like 10s+ and that there's a cost associated with it. For mesmer it's cool down, cast and not having an escape if you use it too much. For thief it's a lack of initiative and so limited follow up skill use after the +1 or again cool down use which is usually their defences, just like how mesmers build for +1. > > > > > > > > also, if im not mistaken thief, has to spend some time blasting/jumping through the aoe to get the stealth, it also costs time, initiative ( so you can inf arow around ) > > > > you arrive in stealth, but you take longer, MUCH longer. how often is it better to spend extra 10s to be stealth to +1, and how often is it just better to run in and spend that extra 10s applying pressure. > > > > > > True that is why i don't have a problem with a d/p Thief, just as i have no problem with a oneshot Mesmer (no matter what spec) not having PU. But a PU Core Mesmer just has everyhting too much, good mobility, doesn't need to stack stealth on spot (can stack during running), still has oneshot dmg even with taking a defensive traitline, then when failing often still has blink or another stealth rdy to disengage easy or bait out another stupid amount of defensive skills. I mean yes in coordinated teams with good focus and communication you can counter that, but aside from these situations it is just annoying to fight and the skill lvl - reward relation is not balanced. Even i can play a Core PU Powermesmer and i normally suck hard on any other Powermesmer build. > > > > Hmm "everything" mean a burst every 12 to 18 sec. Contrary to what you think PU didn't give "everything". > > Carefull with your words, it's hasn't good condiclear, it hasn't good map mobility, it hasn't good healing sustain, it has only 1 sec stun every 18 sec as hard CC (target can still evade during MoD.) to properly burst, and most importantly : it hasn't good dps (out of burst pressure.). > > I mean talking about "everything" I can easily prove how meta classe have more of everything. > > Mantra core mesmer has **stealth** and **burst**, that's all and they are linked. If you want to nerf one of the two thing it has but don't provide other thing it will just die while not even being meta. > > Less burst mean stealth isn't worth it, less stealth mean less effective burst. > > I meant more of everything than a good roaming +1 build needs. > If you all don't like the stealth dmg debuff then all i can imagine is delete the stealthduration from PU but increase boonduration as compensation? why is this meme build even a topic? OP proven that this build is medicore. it does the same thing deadeye does but worse, MUCH worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
viquing.8254 Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 > @"bravan.3876" said: > > @"viquing.8254" said: > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > > > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"viquing.8254" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" immagine whinging about mesmer sword auto chain as a RANGER main, while this exists > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://imgur.com/gallery/6qqQh54 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > P.S thats from TODAY only :D > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Not sure if it was a good idea to pump this nonsense thread once again to talk to a banned player known for being unreasonable und deconstructive to show him once again that he is not right or just hypocrite with most he says... but whatever. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Did you watch mATs in EU? Misha was playing Core PU Mesmer but he ran it without Mantra of Distraction, what i have seen before a lot in EU. It makes sense because of the reasons i mentioned already: Mantra of Distraction is not needed for the oneshot. Everything Mantra of Distraction adds to the combo you get form f3, just that f3 stuns in addition and not only daze. And this build is meant to just hit the burts and then run (maybe cast some phantasm as follow up pressure before), using an additional stealth skill (gives additional boons, another stunbreak and disengage tool) instead Mantra of Distraction makes much more sense in particular when you run vs decent teams know what to focus, means the Mesmer cannot freecast all time and recharge 5 seconds for free. Also recharging 2 Mantras instead of only one all the time is a lot of downtime the Mesmer can't rly do something else and need to cover like 5 secs of recharge makes him very vulnerable or makes him need to cover it with other defensive cds. Something i always tried to tell OP about the nature of Mantras and why they have lower cds because of the downside/ high costs of such a long recharge. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > For Mantra of Pain i think like 99% of the ppl and Mesmer mains in this forum agree, that it is a stupid mechanic to have such high dmg on an instant max range skill without any cds inbetween recharge and inbetween uses even adding vulnerability- and mightstacks. Still it is only a secondary problem on this build, because it can oneshot the same builds also without Mantra of Pain. But it makes sense to use for more pressure vs bunker builds and for more constant (sustained) dmg. Mantra of Pain needs a rework because it is like PU an unheathy mechanic in general. But at least it needs nerfs in the vulnerability stacks, mightstacks and some cds (in my opinion, i know you disagree Viquing, but i am not talking to you here so no need to restart our dispute). I prefer a rework instead a nerf, rework into something not unhealth but still useful (just like for PU). Maybe replace the dmg part with chill? Mesmers don't need other dead traits/skills like EM, a broken mechanic nerfed to death not get used at all. EM would be much better without stunbreak on dodge and without the punish-debuff and for that 2 instead 1 conditions removed or something like that. It would have more uses already than it has atm. But before Viquing incs on me again, yes most meta builds have also or even more balance issues than a Core PU Mesmer using Mantra of Pain and these are discussed in the complain threads for these classes and should not justify overperforming or unhealthy mechanics on Mesmer. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I was waiting for the mAt core mes :D > > > > > > > > > > > Yeah no MoD. > > > > > > > > > > > Sincerely there are way too much period of time where he can't do anything. > > > > > > > > > > > Ok he can survive but it didn't matter when all your team is dead while you are hidding in stealth. > > > > > > > > > > > Ok he can do some 80%hp burst but if you look details, once opponents get one shotted once, it was way harder for him to output his burst. Not to say the very low impact in teamfight. > > > > > > > > > > > In his last game (high level) he does like 3 really usefull bursts (which an other similar class can't do while having more pressure) in a full game which is very low talking about game impact. > > > > > > > > > > > That said about your suggestions (ofc I will go on because you didn't seems to understand the pro/cons of what you propose.) : > > > > > > > > > > > With your nerf suggestion to MoP : welcome to one more dead utility because it will not worth it. Before the "up" of might/damage/vulenrability, MoP was used only for 1) heal spam with trait and 2) armor spam with trait. Armor spam is gone and heal spam isn't viable so if you take this skill as his previous state, it will just add to the list of unused skills. > > > > > > > > > > > Personnaly I will increase the might duration and give it a 24 sec CD so it does what it should do : a on demand spike but not anymore spammable. > > > > > > > > > > > Or make it a boon removal aoe mantra. > > > > > > > > > > > But the only thing mantra core mes bring on the table is the high burst, I don't think reducing the spike or the stealth burst window will make core mes more playable. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Boon removal aoe Mantra sounds pretty good to me, if Anet can't balance out the stupid amount of boonaccess on Meta builds than give Mesmers something unique back only they can do that good and with high amount. That is not broken even more would be a nice counter to a broken boonspam state and would give Mesmer some identity back after nerfing most of its useful and skillful utilities like Portal. Very good idea in my view! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > **coughs** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/63733/mantra-of-pain > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Edit: Obviously don't take the numbers as being gospel, it's nearly a year old but the idea of it manipulating boons on foes is what I'd like to see. You know, almost as if this is some kind of mesmer like thing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sry i barely read class subforums. The idea of boon removal Mantra is great, no matter who was the first had it. Kudos to you then. And yes it fits perfect into Mesmer theme. Why wasn't it created like that in the first place? The idea of high instant max range dmg spammable (no real cds inbetween uses, no need to interrupt or whatever you have to care for at least, nothing...) was bad right from the start. Anet pls do your first good rework without just killing something with nerf to death mentality. These are the kind of senseful changes/ reworks i like to see for stuff i complain about. Any good idea for PU if we are on it? Removing the stealth duration increase was the only thing we could agree until now but it needs some form of compensation. Or we have a better idea how to change the trait into something completely different but still useful. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > PU specifically? Not really because the problem isn't necessarily PU. Changing PU isn't easy, it's hard to keep the defensive theme of the line and couple it with stealth. If you decouple the trait from stealth then you have to find something else to activate the trait that fits with the line and purpose where nothing really comes to mind without bloating already overloaded aspects of the class. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To me your problem is mostly stealth stacking and a little bit the long duration of Mass Invis with PU. The problems you have with oneshot mesmer can easily happen on any other class if/when it gets access to smoke fields or any decent stealth duration. We all remember druid being completely busted in the opposite way where it could reset in stealth over and over and never really die because it could easily get 6-9s of stealth, same with original stealth gyro and scrapper. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > An idea is to finally address stealth and prevent it stacking so people cannot get 6-20s of stealth, maybe adding forced reveal which would certainly prevent problems in the future for other classes however it in many ways screws over mesmer and thief which are balanced around stealth at their core. Many people would praise ANet and call it a great change, enjoying these classes being much reduced in effectiveness unless you played those 2 classes where you're going to hate it for a long time especially in WvW. You would also have to go through quite a lot of skills in the game and rebalance the duration to be longer while making smoke fields and their associated kits worse in the meta where they may not be strong at all. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why do I mention it? They would likely have to buff stealth duration for these two classes specifically or reduce cool downs which may not actually help. For mesmer it's fairly easy as much of it's stealth is through skills so you can simply change to 4s or 5s stealth and remove duration from PU making PU simply give protection, swiftness and resistance in stealth. Thief though, they use combo fields and forcing them into SA to be functional is really horrible, you also can't buff combo fields baseline because other classes would get stronger. You could technically make all first minor traits for thief give +1s stealth which would solve the problem but it's a very inelegant solution to say the least. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So you see it's not really an easy solution for what YOU don't like, it may not actually "fix" anything while being detrimental to the whole +1 burst playstyle of thief and mesmer as it's hard to realise the wide spread implications of such a fundamental change to core mechanics. > > > > > > > > > > > > How about the idea to make dmg multiplier get disabled (or simply a straight overall dmg reduction down to 30% or something, or just both to be sure rofl) starting after 3 secs of stealth? Means you still can stack stealth for defensive purpose and repositioning but not to oneshot someone without any tell with stacked stealth out of ear shot and visible range and can't bait out more than one dodge or one defensive cd each stealth use. The debuff or however it will be designed will stop after 1 secs the player left stealth, so that all follow up casts will not be affected (like a berserker cast after the oneshot try) but only the skills part of the oneshot combo? > > > > > > > > > > This would kill the surprise aspect of any +1 making thief and mesmer having no real advantage to something like rev which has a good alpha but better follow up damage and the same would apply to any other class with a +1 build. They wouldn't ever engage in stealth any more which while you and many others might like it, it's dumbing the game down yet again as you no longer require any map awareness at all which if I remember correctly you're very much against. > > > > > > > > > > There's nothing wrong with an engage in stealth as long as the duration isn't stupid like 10s+ and that there's a cost associated with it. For mesmer it's cool down, cast and not having an escape if you use it too much. For thief it's a lack of initiative and so limited follow up skill use after the +1 or again cool down use which is usually their defences, just like how mesmers build for +1. > > > > > > > > also, if im not mistaken thief, has to spend some time blasting/jumping through the aoe to get the stealth, it also costs time, initiative ( so you can inf arow around ) > > > > you arrive in stealth, but you take longer, MUCH longer. how often is it better to spend extra 10s to be stealth to +1, and how often is it just better to run in and spend that extra 10s applying pressure. > > > > > > True that is why i don't have a problem with a d/p Thief, just as i have no problem with a oneshot Mesmer (no matter what spec) not having PU. But a PU Core Mesmer just has everyhting too much, good mobility, doesn't need to stack stealth on spot (can stack during running), still has oneshot dmg even with taking a defensive traitline, then when failing often still has blink or another stealth rdy to disengage easy or bait out another stupid amount of defensive skills. I mean yes in coordinated teams with good focus and communication you can counter that, but aside from these situations it is just annoying to fight and the skill lvl - reward relation is not balanced. Even i can play a Core PU Powermesmer and i normally suck hard on any other Powermesmer build. > > > > Hmm "everything" mean a burst every 12 to 18 sec. Contrary to what you think PU didn't give "everything". > > Carefull with your words, it's hasn't good condiclear, it hasn't good map mobility, it hasn't good healing sustain, it has only 1 sec stun every 18 sec as hard CC (target can still evade during MoD.) to properly burst, and most importantly : it hasn't good dps (out of burst pressure.). > > I mean talking about "everything" I can easily prove how meta classe have more of everything. > > Mantra core mesmer has **stealth** and **burst**, that's all and they are linked. If you want to nerf one of the two thing it has but don't provide other thing it will just die while not even being meta. > > Less burst mean stealth isn't worth it, less stealth mean less effective burst. > > I meant more of everything than a good roaming +1 build needs. > If you all don't like the stealth dmg debuff then all i can imagine is delete the stealthduration from PU but increase boonduration as compensation? The problem with your stealth debuff is that <3sec stealth is highly predictable : who get hit by torch burn anymore ? Once you get the timing, it's ok, it never hit. And with 30% less flat damage it will never make someone under 50% (even now in mAt it can only 80-90% targets.), which is bad for a 12 sec CD burst ina build who does only that. Remember that mesmer hasn't thief hit&run gameplay were he can go in fight and back easily thief can have use on <3sec stealth because he has many gapcloser. Mesmer can only mirage sword ambush or stealth to reach his target and kite. (in a direct damage build ofc, on condi it has staff to kite.) What I will found fine is, for example, get rid of the stealth duration bonus, make it clear 1 condi when entering stealth and give 2 sec resistance everytime at stealth end/reveal. With a 2 sec resistance at then end of stealth, you are basically less vulnerable to random weakness on auto/aoe and can output more pressure during off stealth (while also begin less hard countered by some heavy condi builds.). This is real counterpart which will allow PU mes to be more predictable while having more in fight viability. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonidrex.5649 Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 > @"viquing.8254" said: > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > @"viquing.8254" said: > > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > > > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"viquing.8254" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" immagine whinging about mesmer sword auto chain as a RANGER main, while this exists > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://imgur.com/gallery/6qqQh54 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > P.S thats from TODAY only :D > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Not sure if it was a good idea to pump this nonsense thread once again to talk to a banned player known for being unreasonable und deconstructive to show him once again that he is not right or just hypocrite with most he says... but whatever. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Did you watch mATs in EU? Misha was playing Core PU Mesmer but he ran it without Mantra of Distraction, what i have seen before a lot in EU. It makes sense because of the reasons i mentioned already: Mantra of Distraction is not needed for the oneshot. Everything Mantra of Distraction adds to the combo you get form f3, just that f3 stuns in addition and not only daze. And this build is meant to just hit the burts and then run (maybe cast some phantasm as follow up pressure before), using an additional stealth skill (gives additional boons, another stunbreak and disengage tool) instead Mantra of Distraction makes much more sense in particular when you run vs decent teams know what to focus, means the Mesmer cannot freecast all time and recharge 5 seconds for free. Also recharging 2 Mantras instead of only one all the time is a lot of downtime the Mesmer can't rly do something else and need to cover like 5 secs of recharge makes him very vulnerable or makes him need to cover it with other defensive cds. Something i always tried to tell OP about the nature of Mantras and why they have lower cds because of the downside/ high costs of such a long recharge. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > For Mantra of Pain i think like 99% of the ppl and Mesmer mains in this forum agree, that it is a stupid mechanic to have such high dmg on an instant max range skill without any cds inbetween recharge and inbetween uses even adding vulnerability- and mightstacks. Still it is only a secondary problem on this build, because it can oneshot the same builds also without Mantra of Pain. But it makes sense to use for more pressure vs bunker builds and for more constant (sustained) dmg. Mantra of Pain needs a rework because it is like PU an unheathy mechanic in general. But at least it needs nerfs in the vulnerability stacks, mightstacks and some cds (in my opinion, i know you disagree Viquing, but i am not talking to you here so no need to restart our dispute). I prefer a rework instead a nerf, rework into something not unhealth but still useful (just like for PU). Maybe replace the dmg part with chill? Mesmers don't need other dead traits/skills like EM, a broken mechanic nerfed to death not get used at all. EM would be much better without stunbreak on dodge and without the punish-debuff and for that 2 instead 1 conditions removed or something like that. It would have more uses already than it has atm. But before Viquing incs on me again, yes most meta builds have also or even more balance issues than a Core PU Mesmer using Mantra of Pain and these are discussed in the complain threads for these classes and should not justify overperforming or unhealthy mechanics on Mesmer. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I was waiting for the mAt core mes :D > > > > > > > > > > > > Yeah no MoD. > > > > > > > > > > > > Sincerely there are way too much period of time where he can't do anything. > > > > > > > > > > > > Ok he can survive but it didn't matter when all your team is dead while you are hidding in stealth. > > > > > > > > > > > > Ok he can do some 80%hp burst but if you look details, once opponents get one shotted once, it was way harder for him to output his burst. Not to say the very low impact in teamfight. > > > > > > > > > > > > In his last game (high level) he does like 3 really usefull bursts (which an other similar class can't do while having more pressure) in a full game which is very low talking about game impact. > > > > > > > > > > > > That said about your suggestions (ofc I will go on because you didn't seems to understand the pro/cons of what you propose.) : > > > > > > > > > > > > With your nerf suggestion to MoP : welcome to one more dead utility because it will not worth it. Before the "up" of might/damage/vulenrability, MoP was used only for 1) heal spam with trait and 2) armor spam with trait. Armor spam is gone and heal spam isn't viable so if you take this skill as his previous state, it will just add to the list of unused skills. > > > > > > > > > > > > Personnaly I will increase the might duration and give it a 24 sec CD so it does what it should do : a on demand spike but not anymore spammable. > > > > > > > > > > > > Or make it a boon removal aoe mantra. > > > > > > > > > > > > But the only thing mantra core mes bring on the table is the high burst, I don't think reducing the spike or the stealth burst window will make core mes more playable. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Boon removal aoe Mantra sounds pretty good to me, if Anet can't balance out the stupid amount of boonaccess on Meta builds than give Mesmers something unique back only they can do that good and with high amount. That is not broken even more would be a nice counter to a broken boonspam state and would give Mesmer some identity back after nerfing most of its useful and skillful utilities like Portal. Very good idea in my view! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > **coughs** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/63733/mantra-of-pain > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Edit: Obviously don't take the numbers as being gospel, it's nearly a year old but the idea of it manipulating boons on foes is what I'd like to see. You know, almost as if this is some kind of mesmer like thing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sry i barely read class subforums. The idea of boon removal Mantra is great, no matter who was the first had it. Kudos to you then. And yes it fits perfect into Mesmer theme. Why wasn't it created like that in the first place? The idea of high instant max range dmg spammable (no real cds inbetween uses, no need to interrupt or whatever you have to care for at least, nothing...) was bad right from the start. Anet pls do your first good rework without just killing something with nerf to death mentality. These are the kind of senseful changes/ reworks i like to see for stuff i complain about. Any good idea for PU if we are on it? Removing the stealth duration increase was the only thing we could agree until now but it needs some form of compensation. Or we have a better idea how to change the trait into something completely different but still useful. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > PU specifically? Not really because the problem isn't necessarily PU. Changing PU isn't easy, it's hard to keep the defensive theme of the line and couple it with stealth. If you decouple the trait from stealth then you have to find something else to activate the trait that fits with the line and purpose where nothing really comes to mind without bloating already overloaded aspects of the class. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To me your problem is mostly stealth stacking and a little bit the long duration of Mass Invis with PU. The problems you have with oneshot mesmer can easily happen on any other class if/when it gets access to smoke fields or any decent stealth duration. We all remember druid being completely busted in the opposite way where it could reset in stealth over and over and never really die because it could easily get 6-9s of stealth, same with original stealth gyro and scrapper. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > An idea is to finally address stealth and prevent it stacking so people cannot get 6-20s of stealth, maybe adding forced reveal which would certainly prevent problems in the future for other classes however it in many ways screws over mesmer and thief which are balanced around stealth at their core. Many people would praise ANet and call it a great change, enjoying these classes being much reduced in effectiveness unless you played those 2 classes where you're going to hate it for a long time especially in WvW. You would also have to go through quite a lot of skills in the game and rebalance the duration to be longer while making smoke fields and their associated kits worse in the meta where they may not be strong at all. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why do I mention it? They would likely have to buff stealth duration for these two classes specifically or reduce cool downs which may not actually help. For mesmer it's fairly easy as much of it's stealth is through skills so you can simply change to 4s or 5s stealth and remove duration from PU making PU simply give protection, swiftness and resistance in stealth. Thief though, they use combo fields and forcing them into SA to be functional is really horrible, you also can't buff combo fields baseline because other classes would get stronger. You could technically make all first minor traits for thief give +1s stealth which would solve the problem but it's a very inelegant solution to say the least. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So you see it's not really an easy solution for what YOU don't like, it may not actually "fix" anything while being detrimental to the whole +1 burst playstyle of thief and mesmer as it's hard to realise the wide spread implications of such a fundamental change to core mechanics. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > How about the idea to make dmg multiplier get disabled (or simply a straight overall dmg reduction down to 30% or something, or just both to be sure rofl) starting after 3 secs of stealth? Means you still can stack stealth for defensive purpose and repositioning but not to oneshot someone without any tell with stacked stealth out of ear shot and visible range and can't bait out more than one dodge or one defensive cd each stealth use. The debuff or however it will be designed will stop after 1 secs the player left stealth, so that all follow up casts will not be affected (like a berserker cast after the oneshot try) but only the skills part of the oneshot combo? > > > > > > > > > > > > This would kill the surprise aspect of any +1 making thief and mesmer having no real advantage to something like rev which has a good alpha but better follow up damage and the same would apply to any other class with a +1 build. They wouldn't ever engage in stealth any more which while you and many others might like it, it's dumbing the game down yet again as you no longer require any map awareness at all which if I remember correctly you're very much against. > > > > > > > > > > > > There's nothing wrong with an engage in stealth as long as the duration isn't stupid like 10s+ and that there's a cost associated with it. For mesmer it's cool down, cast and not having an escape if you use it too much. For thief it's a lack of initiative and so limited follow up skill use after the +1 or again cool down use which is usually their defences, just like how mesmers build for +1. > > > > > > > > > > also, if im not mistaken thief, has to spend some time blasting/jumping through the aoe to get the stealth, it also costs time, initiative ( so you can inf arow around ) > > > > > you arrive in stealth, but you take longer, MUCH longer. how often is it better to spend extra 10s to be stealth to +1, and how often is it just better to run in and spend that extra 10s applying pressure. > > > > > > > > True that is why i don't have a problem with a d/p Thief, just as i have no problem with a oneshot Mesmer (no matter what spec) not having PU. But a PU Core Mesmer just has everyhting too much, good mobility, doesn't need to stack stealth on spot (can stack during running), still has oneshot dmg even with taking a defensive traitline, then when failing often still has blink or another stealth rdy to disengage easy or bait out another stupid amount of defensive skills. I mean yes in coordinated teams with good focus and communication you can counter that, but aside from these situations it is just annoying to fight and the skill lvl - reward relation is not balanced. Even i can play a Core PU Powermesmer and i normally suck hard on any other Powermesmer build. > > > > > > Hmm "everything" mean a burst every 12 to 18 sec. Contrary to what you think PU didn't give "everything". > > > Carefull with your words, it's hasn't good condiclear, it hasn't good map mobility, it hasn't good healing sustain, it has only 1 sec stun every 18 sec as hard CC (target can still evade during MoD.) to properly burst, and most importantly : it hasn't good dps (out of burst pressure.). > > > I mean talking about "everything" I can easily prove how meta classe have more of everything. > > > Mantra core mesmer has **stealth** and **burst**, that's all and they are linked. If you want to nerf one of the two thing it has but don't provide other thing it will just die while not even being meta. > > > Less burst mean stealth isn't worth it, less stealth mean less effective burst. > > > > I meant more of everything than a good roaming +1 build needs. > > If you all don't like the stealth dmg debuff then all i can imagine is delete the stealthduration from PU but increase boonduration as compensation? > The problem with your stealth debuff is that <3sec stealth is highly predictable : who get hit by torch burn anymore ? Once you get the timing, it's ok, it never hit. And with 30% less flat damage it will never make someone under 50% (even now in mAt it can only 80-90% targets.), which is bad for a 12 sec CD burst ina build who does only that. > Remember that mesmer hasn't thief hit&run gameplay were he can go in fight and back easily thief can have use on <3sec stealth because he has many gapcloser. > Mesmer can only mirage sword ambush or stealth to reach his target and kite. (in a direct damage build ofc, on condi it has staff to kite.) > > What I will found fine is, for example, get rid of the stealth duration bonus, make it clear 1 condi when entering stealth and give 2 sec resistance everytime at stealth end/reveal. With a 2 sec resistance at then end of stealth, you are basically less vulnerable to random weakness on auto/aoe and can output more pressure during off stealth (while also begin less hard countered by some heavy condi builds.). This is real counterpart which will allow PU mes to be more predictable while having more in fight viability. wait, did someone actually use this shit in mat? LOL is there a link to watch? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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