Athrenn.9468 Posted October 11, 2017 Share Posted October 11, 2017 > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said: > > @Athrenn.9468 said: > > It would help if you posted said comments here so that the primary source is open for review. I couldn't find any quotes by Jeff Grubb referring to Almorra Soulkeeper but if you know where it was said then I'd be happy to take a look myself, but until I've seen the wording verbatim we've reached an impasse since there's not much else to be said about the matter. > > I would have done so immediately, if I could remember where it was. But it was an old interview so I don't recall where it was, just that it was said. I would have to treat it as an uncited, alleged developer quote until I've seen it myself. I don't think it's fair to debate the legitimacy of a text that no one can verify for themselves, so if it's lost to time then that's unfortunate but the most I can say is that it's possible for this claim to swing either way pending further evidence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Konig Des Todes.2086 Posted October 11, 2017 Share Posted October 11, 2017 > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > The Elder Dragons can only corrupt those who are weak. A lot of Sylvari resisted Mord and a lot of Norn resisted Jormag (Jora resisted Jormag while her brother got corrupted), just as Almorra resisted Kral. She has this to say; "I stood beneath the dragon as it passed overhead. I survived where others did not." (introduction to vigil cutscene) If you honestly think this you missed the critical plot lore of the personal story in that dragon corruption **cannot** be resisted, nor can it be reverted (by normal means that is). This is what makes the Exalted's immunity to dragon corruption so critical, and what made the sylvari's "immunity" to Zhaitan and Kralkatorrik so unique. Mordremoth doesn't corrupt sylvari, it should be noted, but whispers into their minds in a way that makes them think its their own thoughts (see my post above). And only two norn ever resisted Jormag's temptations - and they were just that, not corruption but temptations; Jormag is made outright to primarily convert the willing rather than enslaving, this is why Drakkar let Jora go (as for Aesgir, that's unclear still, but he's said to have been protected by the Spirits of the Wild). Almorra didn't resist Kralkatorrik. She just was on the outer end of his corruption and didn't get touch. > @Athrenn.9468 said: > I would have to treat it as an uncited, alleged developer quote until I've seen it myself. I don't think it's fair to debate the legitimacy of a text that no one can verify for themselves, so if it's lost to time then that's unfortunate but the most I can say is that it's possible for this claim to swing either way pending further evidence. Can't blame this, but that doesn't change the fact that Almorra's reiteration is not saying she was physically touching something that got corrupted the moment it got corrupted, which you seem to be so settled on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Athrenn.9468 Posted October 11, 2017 Share Posted October 11, 2017 > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said: > Can't blame this, but that doesn't change the fact that Almorra's reiteration is not saying she was physically touching something that got corrupted the moment it got corrupted, which you seem to be so settled on. I'm not settled on any narrative, honestly. I've just seen no evidence in either the game or the novel that explicitly describes Almorra being on the edge of the Brand and I want to get the facts straight before I make a decision. If it was explicitly stated by the book's author and I had the quote in front of me then I'd be willing to consider it, but until then, I'm just letting the evidence speak for itself. Well, no, that's not entirely true. There's no such thing as evidence that speaks for itself, which is why scholars construct arguments and debate certain points using rhetoric to persuade their target audience, but that just doesn't have the same ring to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Vincent III.1286 Posted October 11, 2017 Share Posted October 11, 2017 > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said: > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > > The Elder Dragons can only corrupt those who are weak. A lot of Sylvari resisted Mord and a lot of Norn resisted Jormag (Jora resisted Jormag while her brother got corrupted), just as Almorra resisted Kral. She has this to say; "I stood beneath the dragon as it passed overhead. I survived where others did not." (introduction to vigil cutscene) > > If you honestly think this you missed the critical plot lore of the personal story in that dragon corruption **cannot** be resisted, nor can it be reverted (by normal means that is). This is what makes the Exalted's immunity to dragon corruption so critical, and what made the sylvari's "immunity" to Zhaitan and Kralkatorrik so unique. > > Mordremoth doesn't corrupt sylvari, it should be noted, but whispers into their minds in a way that makes them think its their own thoughts (see my post above). I didn't miss it, it's just not consistent. When you first made a Sylvari, you start by fighting the Nightmare, which ends you fighting the Shadow of the Dragon, which is Mordremoth trying to influence you. Only dropping their defenses and refusing/failing to resist Mord that Sylvari gets corrupted. All other non-sentient or mentally weak creatures are easily corrupted. This, I believe, is more consistent and plausible than stating that the Dragon's corruption "cannot" be resisted. Other aspects of the game say otherwise. In fact, the Pale Tree has warded Mordremoth. > And only two norn ever resisted Jormag's temptations - and they were just that, not corruption but temptations; Jormag is made outright to primarily convert the willing rather than enslaving, this is why Drakkar let Jora go (as for Aesgir, that's unclear still, but he's said to have been protected by the Spirits of the Wild). > I believe that the Elder Dragons need to use temptations against sentient or high mental fortitude creatures to convince them to drop their defenses. > Almorra didn't resist Kralkatorrik. She just was on the outer end of his corruption and didn't get touch. Almorra said "overhead" so I believe her. For the sake of consistency, when Kral flew overhead, it is more believable that she and her warband were tempted by Kral. She resisted but her warband didn't. This is the same reason why The Commander cannot be corrupted even though we were fighting Mord in his own mind or even though Kral has been breathing on us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Athrenn.9468 Posted October 11, 2017 Share Posted October 11, 2017 > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > Almorra said "overhead" so I believe her. For the sake of consistency, when Kral flew overhead, it is more believable that she and her warband were tempted by Kral. She resisted but her warband didn't. This is the same reason why The Commander cannot be corrupted even though we were fighting Mord in his own mind or even though Kral has been breathing on us. Konig and I have been debating this for the last few days. (You can read everything we said on the matter if you scroll up.) Basically, it comes down to this: Jeff Grubb allegedly said that Almorra survived by pure luck and that the field of corrupting energy narrowly missed her. There is no citation yet for this claim, which means that the jury is still out on what the developer actually said, word for word. Pages 97-100 of the novel, Ghosts of Ascalon, described the event in vivid detail. (I posted them in a comment somewhere above.) I've been arguing by deductive reasoning that the text describes Kralkatorrik flying directly over Almorra's head and Konig has been arguing that it can be interpreted otherwise with an appeal to _ethos_, i.e. the alleged developer quote by Jeff Grubb. And that's where we are now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Vincent III.1286 Posted October 11, 2017 Share Posted October 11, 2017 > @Athrenn.9468 said: > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > > Almorra said "overhead" so I believe her. For the sake of consistency, when Kral flew overhead, it is more believable that she and her warband were tempted by Kral. She resisted but her warband didn't. This is the same reason why The Commander cannot be corrupted even though we were fighting Mord in his own mind or even though Kral has been breathing on us. > > Konig and I have been debating this for the last few days. (You can read everything we said on the matter if you scroll up.) Basically, it comes down to this: > > Jeff Grubb allegedly said that Almorra survived by pure luck and that the field of corrupting energy narrowly missed her. There is no citation yet for this claim, which means that the jury is still out on what the developer actually said, word for word. > > Pages 97-100 of the novel, Ghosts of Ascalon, described the event in vivid detail. (I posted them in a comment somewhere above.) I've been arguing by deductive reasoning that the text describes Kralkatorrik flying directly over Almorra's head and Konig has been arguing that it can be interpreted otherwise with an appeal to _ethos_, i.e. the alleged developer quote by Jeff Grubb. > > And that's where we are now. I would have to believe that Jeff Grubb has approved of Almorra's in-game dialog. Thus when she said Kral flew overhead, it's canon because she said so. Firsthand experience confirmation. If the writers then made her a liar by changing the details of her story, then that's for another discussion. What can be perceived as "luck" maybe due to her resistance? I'm not saying I'm correct, I'm saying is that for consistency's sake. Just as Canach and other Sylvari resisted Mord, maybe the same way Almorra resisted Kral. Again, just laying out the pattern for the sake of consistency. As for Zhaitan, he corrupts the dead, thus zero resistance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Athrenn.9468 Posted October 11, 2017 Share Posted October 11, 2017 > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > > @Athrenn.9468 said: > > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > > > Almorra said "overhead" so I believe her. For the sake of consistency, when Kral flew overhead, it is more believable that she and her warband were tempted by Kral. She resisted but her warband didn't. This is the same reason why The Commander cannot be corrupted even though we were fighting Mord in his own mind or even though Kral has been breathing on us. > > > > Konig and I have been debating this for the last few days. (You can read everything we said on the matter if you scroll up.) Basically, it comes down to this: > > > > Jeff Grubb allegedly said that Almorra survived by pure luck and that the field of corrupting energy narrowly missed her. There is no citation yet for this claim, which means that the jury is still out on what the developer actually said, word for word. > > > > Pages 97-100 of the novel, Ghosts of Ascalon, described the event in vivid detail. (I posted them in a comment somewhere above.) I've been arguing by deductive reasoning that the text describes Kralkatorrik flying directly over Almorra's head and Konig has been arguing that it can be interpreted otherwise with an appeal to _ethos_, i.e. the alleged developer quote by Jeff Grubb. > > > > And that's where we are now. > > I would have to believe that Jeff Grubb has approved of Almorra's in-game dialog. Thus when she said Kral flew overhead, it's canon because she said so. Firsthand experience confirmation. > > If the writers then made her a liar by changing the details of her story, then that's for another discussion. I don't disagree with you, but it's also really hard to prove that either side is unambiguously correct which is where we've run into a bit of a wall. At this point it just seems like an unresolved question that could go either way pending further evidence but I'm also on the same side of the fence as you at the moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Konig Des Todes.2086 Posted October 11, 2017 Share Posted October 11, 2017 > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > I didn't miss it, it's just not consistent. When you first made a Sylvari, you start by fighting the Nightmare, which ends you fighting the Shadow of the Dragon, which is Mordremoth trying to influence you. Only dropping their defenses and refusing/failing to resist Mord that Sylvari gets corrupted. All other non-sentient or mentally weak creatures are easily corrupted. This, I believe, is more consistent and plausible than stating that the Dragon's corruption "cannot" be resisted. Other aspects of the game say otherwise. In fact, the Pale Tree has warded Mordremoth. The Shadow of the Dragon in the sylvari tutorial isn't "Mordremoth trying to influence you". It actually is a Wyld Hunt. The Dream does have some minor prophetic attributes, as the very intro cinematic shows. It was established both in-game and out that the Shadow of the Dragon as we witness in the tutorial is the Dream giving the PC the Wyld Hunt to face the Elder Dragons. It is also seen by many other sylvari, all of whom are compelled to fight the Elder Dragons' minions across Tyria. It's actually unclear, but it seems that the Shadow of the Dragon fought in Season 2 was more of Mordremoth pulling the Dream's Wyld Hunt visions and recreating it. As said, sylvari never get corrupted by Mordremoth. Again, see above post. ((EDIT: Adding quote of my prior post: > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said: > Yes, hinted in Season 2 Episode 3's first instance (for sylvari PC only), and outright clarified in multiple HoT promotion articles. While the Dream - via the connection with the Pale Tree - provides "protection" from dragon corruption, Mordremoth's connection to the Dream allowed him to circumvent this; he utilized the same channels of the Wyld Hunts and Dark Hunts the Dream and Nightmare utilized to whisper into the sylvari's minds. In doing so, he often (at least at first?) made the whispers sound like their own thoughts - making the individual think that the ideas and thoughts were their own. (In retrospect, it seems this is what he did to Scarlet Briar hence her claims in the end of Season 1 "they're my plans! Mine!"). Sometimes, as we see with the PC and arguably Aerin given the latter's attitude, Mordremoth doesn't bother hiding the origins of the thoughts. > > > Pale Tree: There are those who reject **my protection.** It leaves them vulnerable in ways they cannot imagine, in ways they never were before. I shield you as best I can and will for as long as I can. > > Pact Commander: You're talking about dragon corruption. We've been immune to it. > > Pale Tree: Yes. In the past, my children have been immune. But Mordremoth's corruption is powerful, and just as Zhaitan created the undead from so many creatures, so Mordremoth's corruption can change you. > > Pact Commander: Scarlet? > > Pale Tree: I believe **she opened herself to it** when she let down **the wall of her mind.** Mordremoth's corruption seeps in through the cracks in our willpower. Do not follow in her footsteps. > > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Rallying_Call > > Do note that the above is from before the sylvari reveal, so the Pale Tree is telling the truth but not the whole truth. But here, the Pale Tree makes it a point to stress that it is not the sylvari's origins that offer protection, but their connection to the Pale Tree - one that Scarlet had removed, and one others do (Soundless). > > > The Elder Dragon can implant thoughts in its creations—**thoughts they may even believe to be their own**—and only a combination of immense willpower and the **protection of the Pale Tree** can prevent Mordremoth from taking control. Sylvari receive calls to action in the form of the Wyld Hunt—or the Dark Hunt, for Nightmare Courtiers—and **these compulsions act as an access point for Mordremoth’s influence.** > > https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/points-of-interest-episode-18-summary/ > > > Occam: Commander? What's going on out there? Some of my former comrades in the Pact don't seem to distinguish between Mordrem and sylvari. > > Pact Commander: It's Mordremoth. The dragon's influence turns some sylvari bad. > > Occam: That explains the terrible voice I hear and **the strange thoughts I've been having.** But I know who I am, and I swear to you--I am not some Mordrem thrall. > > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Prisoners_of_the_Dragon > > Basically, the Dream provides "immunity" to dragon corruption. But Mordremoth's connection to the Dream gave him the means to bypass that "immunity". > > So, in theory, sylvari without that protection - without the Dream - such as Malyck should be vulnerable to any dragon's corruption. > > There is a bit of confusion in some points, particularly in Season 2, with how the Soundless should be effected. Until Heart of Thorns, there were plenty of dialogue to indicate that Soundlessness would be the surest way to fall to Mordremoth, but with the promotion articles for HoT, the opposite seemed true. Dragon corruption is irreversible except by rare and exotic means - like the Forgotten ritual used on Glint, which is said to require the geographical location among other things - but in Buried Insights we see a Mordrem Guard returning from his "for Mordremoth!" mentality (until Canach pushing him back). This **proves** that what the sylvari which fall to Mordremoth are not corrupted. It isn't inconsistency - you're just making false conclusions about the Mordrem Guard. > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > I believe that the Elder Dragons need to use temptations against sentient or high mental fortitude creatures to convince them to drop their defenses. Except that never once does any Elder Dragon beyond Jormag ever do this, and Jormag uses this against all beings whether "high mental fortitude" or not. Even Mordremoth does not use temptations. > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > Almorra said "overhead" so I believe her. For the sake of consistency, when Kral flew overhead, it is more believable that she and her warband were tempted by Kral. She resisted but her warband didn't. This is the same reason why The Commander cannot be corrupted even though we were fighting Mord in his own mind or even though Kral has been breathing on us. Kralkatorrik is larger than the width of the Dragonbrand. Not everything directly underneath Kralkatorrik got branded - furthermore, the clouds and wingspan of Kralkatorrik is outright stated to have blocked out the sun over Ebonhawke in Edge of Destiny (I quoted this in another thread recently). EDIT: Quoting my post of the Edge of Destiny excerpt: > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said: > Actually, it was (Edge of Destiny, page 355): > > The black cloud was spreading with preternatural speed. In heartbeats, it engulfed the sky. Waves of dark magic riled through the belly of the cloud, and red lightning flickered horribly. In the far west, a strange golden beam tore down from the cloud to rake the horizon. > > This is from the perspective of Ebonhawke, with the "golden beam" being how Kralkatorrik created the initial Dragonbrand (his actively corrupting breath). Though close to Kralkatorrik, the entire sky was blotted out by Kralkatorrik's thunderstorm and wingspan, which would mean it reached far enough to cover just about the whole of Fields of Ruin before it was parallel with Ebonhawke. (Similarly, when Kralkatorrik woke up a pall hung over the Black Citadel, despite how far away Kralkatorrik was at that time.) Mordremoth doesn't corrupt things in the Dream, and even then, like Primordus, he doesn't (usually) corrupt animals. Mordremoth's methodology for minion making is to corrupt plant matter / grow minions in the shape of other individuals (just as Primordus' is to corrupt rock and lava and shape it into a mockery shape of other races). And Kralkatorrik never breathed corruption on us. > @Athrenn.9468 said: > I've been arguing by deductive reasoning that the text describes Kralkatorrik flying directly over Almorra's head and Konig has been arguing that it can be interpreted otherwise with an appeal to _ethos_, i.e. the alleged developer quote by Jeff Grubb. I've never said Kralkatorrik wasn't directly overhead Almorra. The fact that he blocked out the sky over Ebonhawke when he's clearly far west of it in Edge of Destiny proves that Kralkatorrik is wider than the width of the Dragonbrand. I was saying that Almorra was on the splash-effect edge of the Dragonbrand, and happened to be in a part that wasn't corrupted while her warband in front and behind her was in a splash that got corrupted. Kralkatorrik was 100% overhead. But not everything 100% underneath him got corrupted, only the things in the Dragonbrand - which would be barely a third of his width. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Athrenn.9468 Posted October 11, 2017 Share Posted October 11, 2017 I meant directly as in, "At a 90° angle perpendicular to Kralkatorrik's flight vector, give or take a few degrees." I wouldn't even go into measuring the width of the Brand relative to Kralkatorrik's wingspan because there aren't any precise measurements to quote and it would just be open speculation anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Konig Des Todes.2086 Posted October 11, 2017 Share Posted October 11, 2017 Edge of Destiny states that Kralkatorrik is 1,000 feet tall, and had a wingspan that blocked out the sky to those underneath him. And then there's that above quote about the sky being shadowed while in Ebonhawke. You do not need "precise measurements" to figure out that Kralkatorrik is wider than the width of the Dragonbrand. Especially now that we got his head in-game. Almorra wasn't directly underneath the center of Kralkatorrik, nor was she affected by the golden gale breath that Kralkatorrik used to create that initial Dragonbrand (something he apparently no longer needed as of the end of Path of Fire - perhaps due to Zhaitan's domain of shadow? Or just his general power boost). Hell, she doesn't even make mention of the golden gale, despite it being repeatedly mentioned in Edge of Destiny. So obviously she wasn't engulfed by it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fenom.9457 Posted October 11, 2017 Share Posted October 11, 2017 > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said: > Edge of Destiny states that Kralkatorrik is 1,000 feet tall, and had a wingspan that blocked out the sky to those underneath him. And then there's that above quote about the sky being shadowed while in Ebonhawke. > > You do not need "precise measurements" to figure out that Kralkatorrik is wider than the width of the Dragonbrand. Especially now that we got his head in-game. > > Almorra wasn't directly underneath the center of Kralkatorrik, nor was she affected by the golden gale breath that Kralkatorrik used to create that initial Dragonbrand (something he apparently no longer needed as of the end of Path of Fire - perhaps due to Zhaitan's domain of shadow? Or just his general power boost). Hell, she doesn't even make mention of the golden gale, despite it being repeatedly mentioned in Edge of Destiny. So obviously she wasn't engulfed by it. The width of the dragonbrand is his breath, with wind spreading it a bit factoring in I suppose Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Vincent III.1286 Posted October 11, 2017 Share Posted October 11, 2017 > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said: > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > > I didn't miss it, it's just not consistent. When you first made a Sylvari, you start by fighting the Nightmare, which ends you fighting the Shadow of the Dragon, which is Mordremoth trying to influence you. Only dropping their defenses and refusing/failing to resist Mord that Sylvari gets corrupted. All other non-sentient or mentally weak creatures are easily corrupted. This, I believe, is more consistent and plausible than stating that the Dragon's corruption "cannot" be resisted. Other aspects of the game say otherwise. In fact, the Pale Tree has warded Mordremoth. > > The Shadow of the Dragon in the sylvari tutorial isn't "Mordremoth trying to influence you". It actually is a Wyld Hunt. The Dream does have some minor prophetic attributes, as the very intro cinematic shows. It was established both in-game and out that the Shadow of the Dragon as we witness in the tutorial is the Dream giving the PC the Wyld Hunt to face the Elder Dragons. It is also seen by many other sylvari, all of whom are compelled to fight the Elder Dragons' minions across Tyria. It's actually unclear, but it seems that the Shadow of the Dragon fought in Season 2 was more of Mordremoth pulling the Dream's Wyld Hunt visions and recreating it. > > As said, sylvari never get corrupted by Mordremoth. Again, see above post. ((EDIT: Adding quote of my prior post: > > > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said: > > Yes, hinted in Season 2 Episode 3's first instance (for sylvari PC only), and outright clarified in multiple HoT promotion articles. While the Dream - via the connection with the Pale Tree - provides "protection" from dragon corruption, Mordremoth's connection to the Dream allowed him to circumvent this; he utilized the same channels of the Wyld Hunts and Dark Hunts the Dream and Nightmare utilized to whisper into the sylvari's minds. In doing so, he often (at least at first?) made the whispers sound like their own thoughts - making the individual think that the ideas and thoughts were their own. (In retrospect, it seems this is what he did to Scarlet Briar hence her claims in the end of Season 1 "they're my plans! Mine!"). Sometimes, as we see with the PC and arguably Aerin given the latter's attitude, Mordremoth doesn't bother hiding the origins of the thoughts. > > > > > Pale Tree: There are those who reject **my protection.** It leaves them vulnerable in ways they cannot imagine, in ways they never were before. I shield you as best I can and will for as long as I can. > > > Pact Commander: You're talking about dragon corruption. We've been immune to it. > > > Pale Tree: Yes. In the past, my children have been immune. But Mordremoth's corruption is powerful, and just as Zhaitan created the undead from so many creatures, so Mordremoth's corruption can change you. > > > Pact Commander: Scarlet? > > > Pale Tree: I believe **she opened herself to it** when she let down **the wall of her mind.** Mordremoth's corruption seeps in through the cracks in our willpower. Do not follow in her footsteps. > > > > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Rallying_Call > > > > Do note that the above is from before the sylvari reveal, so the Pale Tree is telling the truth but not the whole truth. But here, the Pale Tree makes it a point to stress that it is not the sylvari's origins that offer protection, but their connection to the Pale Tree - one that Scarlet had removed, and one others do (Soundless). > > > > > The Elder Dragon can implant thoughts in its creations—**thoughts they may even believe to be their own**—and only a combination of immense willpower and the **protection of the Pale Tree** can prevent Mordremoth from taking control. Sylvari receive calls to action in the form of the Wyld Hunt—or the Dark Hunt, for Nightmare Courtiers—and **these compulsions act as an access point for Mordremoth’s influence.** > > > > https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/points-of-interest-episode-18-summary/ > > > > > Occam: Commander? What's going on out there? Some of my former comrades in the Pact don't seem to distinguish between Mordrem and sylvari. > > > Pact Commander: It's Mordremoth. The dragon's influence turns some sylvari bad. > > > Occam: That explains the terrible voice I hear and **the strange thoughts I've been having.** But I know who I am, and I swear to you--I am not some Mordrem thrall. > > > > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Prisoners_of_the_Dragon > > > > Basically, the Dream provides "immunity" to dragon corruption. But Mordremoth's connection to the Dream gave him the means to bypass that "immunity". > > > > So, in theory, sylvari without that protection - without the Dream - such as Malyck should be vulnerable to any dragon's corruption. > > > > There is a bit of confusion in some points, particularly in Season 2, with how the Soundless should be effected. Until Heart of Thorns, there were plenty of dialogue to indicate that Soundlessness would be the surest way to fall to Mordremoth, but with the promotion articles for HoT, the opposite seemed true. > The Dream and the Nightmare are not two different dimensions and Mord's mind is yet another dimension. There is this thing they call "balance" and it is the balance of the Dream and Nightmare. The Nightmare Court has been trying to tip that balance in their favor. Now the question is, who's dreams and nightmares are these? Mordremoth's. When Faolin found this out, she rejected the Nightmare too because all she wanted was freedom. The Dream is simply part of Mordremoth's mind that is under the protection of Ventari's tablet. What if the "Wyld Hunt" is Mordremoth's way to persuade Sylvaris on killing the other dragons so he can absorb their powers? It does create a lot of doubts in the Dream and the Pale Tree's protections. > Dragon corruption is irreversible except by rare and exotic means - like the Forgotten ritual used on Glint, which is said to require the geographical location among other things - but in Buried Insights we see a Mordrem Guard returning from his "for Mordremoth!" mentality (until Canach pushing him back). This **proves** that what the sylvari which fall to Mordremoth are not corrupted. > Well, falling under the mind control of the dragon is a metal corruption. Other species are simply cloned from subjects trapped into those vats or pods and others are reduced to a gel and recreated from those "stranger blisters". Thus, Mordremoth's form of corruption is different and it deals with metal corruptions. > It isn't inconsistency - you're just making false conclusions about the Mordrem Guard. > The Mordrem Guard is a perfect example of those who have weak mental fortitude. > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > > I believe that the Elder Dragons need to use temptations against sentient or high mental fortitude creatures to convince them to drop their defenses. > > Except that never once does any Elder Dragon beyond Jormag ever do this, and Jormag uses this against all beings whether "high mental fortitude" or not. Even Mordremoth does not use temptations. > Mordremoth definitely uses temptations. In the final fight, if you are Sylvari, Caithe or Canach will urge you to reject Mord. Mord uses a lot of temptations during that fight. > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > > Almorra said "overhead" so I believe her. For the sake of consistency, when Kral flew overhead, it is more believable that she and her warband were tempted by Kral. She resisted but her warband didn't. This is the same reason why The Commander cannot be corrupted even though we were fighting Mord in his own mind or even though Kral has been breathing on us. > > Kralkatorrik is larger than the width of the Dragonbrand. Not everything directly underneath Kralkatorrik got branded - furthermore, the clouds and wingspan of Kralkatorrik is outright stated to have blocked out the sun over Ebonhawke in Edge of Destiny (I quoted this in another thread recently). > > EDIT: Quoting my post of the Edge of Destiny excerpt: > > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said: > > Actually, it was (Edge of Destiny, page 355): > > > > The black cloud was spreading with preternatural speed. In heartbeats, it engulfed the sky. Waves of dark magic riled through the belly of the cloud, and red lightning flickered horribly. In the far west, a strange golden beam tore down from the cloud to rake the horizon. > > > > This is from the perspective of Ebonhawke, with the "golden beam" being how Kralkatorrik created the initial Dragonbrand (his actively corrupting breath). Though close to Kralkatorrik, the entire sky was blotted out by Kralkatorrik's thunderstorm and wingspan, which would mean it reached far enough to cover just about the whole of Fields of Ruin before it was parallel with Ebonhawke. (Similarly, when Kralkatorrik woke up a pall hung over the Black Citadel, despite how far away Kralkatorrik was at that time.) > I don't see Kral blotting the sun from that excerpt. The observer might simply be overestimating Kral's size due to the black clouds and bolts of lightning. However, Queen Jenna was able to project an illusion of the Elder Dragon, so Kral can't be that big. > Mordremoth doesn't corrupt things in the Dream, and even then, like Primordus, he doesn't (usually) corrupt animals. Mordremoth's methodology for minion making is to corrupt plant matter / grow minions in the shape of other individuals (just as Primordus' is to corrupt rock and lava and shape it into a mockery shape of other races). > Mordremoth traps animals and other beings in the vats or pods and uses them as the template for his creations. The only creatures he corrupts are the Sylvari, mentally of course, because the Sylvari is already a product of that process. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Athrenn.9468 Posted October 11, 2017 Share Posted October 11, 2017 The authors of _Ghosts of Ascalon_ and _Edge of Destiny_ describe the process of the Dragonbrand's formation so differently that I would have to chalk it up to artistic license rather than any canonical reason. King, J. Robert. Guild Wars: Edge of Destiny (p. 355). Pocket Books. Kindle Edition: > The black cloud was spreading with preternatural speed. In heartbeats, it engulfed the sky. Waves of dark magic riled through the belly of the cloud, and red lightning flickered horribly. In the far west, a strange golden beam tore down from the cloud to rake the horizon. (p.373): > The black presence now overspread the whole sky. Lightning crackled among the clouds. Golden beams of light stabbed down to bake the desert sands. The ground seemed to melt, to boil and twist. The golden fire seared a highway through the desert. Then in _Ghosts of Ascalon_, there is no mention of a golden vapor, laser beam, or anything particular gold colored in relation to Kralkatorrik. > Despite the fact the dragon soared hundreds of feet above us, its passage turned the land beneath the path of its flight black and transformed the plants into crystalline monstrosities. At the same time, the screams from the rest of my warband tore at my ears. There was no breath described in Almorra's account, and according to her, it was the mere passage that caused the Branding. _Ghosts_ was published in July 2010 and _Edge_ was published in December of that same year so it's entirely possible that the first novel contained a first draft version of the Branding which was later refined and included in Edge of Destiny's final draft. I think that would explain the discrepancy more than any in-world reason. EDIT: Another major difference between the two books is that in _Ghosts_, Almorra made no mention of "a million tons of air" being flapped down on her warband which was supposedly enough to break a charr's bones just from the mere act of Kralkatorrik taking off and flying over them. (Edge of Destiny; p.347). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Vincent III.1286 Posted October 11, 2017 Share Posted October 11, 2017 > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said: > Edge of Destiny states that Kralkatorrik is 1,000 feet tall, and had a wingspan that blocked out the sky to those underneath him. And then there's that above quote about the sky being shadowed while in Ebonhawke. > > You do not need "precise measurements" to figure out that Kralkatorrik is wider than the width of the Dragonbrand. Especially now that we got his head in-game. > > Almorra wasn't directly underneath the center of Kralkatorrik, nor was she affected by the golden gale breath that Kralkatorrik used to create that initial Dragonbrand (something he apparently no longer needed as of the end of Path of Fire - perhaps due to Zhaitan's domain of shadow? Or just his general power boost). Hell, she doesn't even make mention of the golden gale, despite it being repeatedly mentioned in Edge of Destiny. So obviously she wasn't engulfed by it. Ok I look this up and according to the wiki, Almorra was surrounded by Branded; "Soulkeeper waited for her warsiblings to tear each other apart, before stepping in and dispatching the survivors. When she was done, **she looked before and behind herself and saw that every part of the land that had passed beneath the dragon had been twisted in this same way**." She's there, dead center. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fenom.9457 Posted October 12, 2017 Share Posted October 12, 2017 > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said: > > Edge of Destiny states that Kralkatorrik is 1,000 feet tall, and had a wingspan that blocked out the sky to those underneath him. And then there's that above quote about the sky being shadowed while in Ebonhawke. > > > > You do not need "precise measurements" to figure out that Kralkatorrik is wider than the width of the Dragonbrand. Especially now that we got his head in-game. > > > > Almorra wasn't directly underneath the center of Kralkatorrik, nor was she affected by the golden gale breath that Kralkatorrik used to create that initial Dragonbrand (something he apparently no longer needed as of the end of Path of Fire - perhaps due to Zhaitan's domain of shadow? Or just his general power boost). Hell, she doesn't even make mention of the golden gale, despite it being repeatedly mentioned in Edge of Destiny. So obviously she wasn't engulfed by it. > > Ok I look this up and according to the wiki, Almorra was surrounded by Branded; > > "Soulkeeper waited for her warsiblings to tear each other apart, before stepping in and dispatching the survivors. When she was done, **she looked before and behind herself and saw that every part of the land that had passed beneath the dragon had been twisted in this same way**." > > She's there, dead center. one in a million luck not to be branded? don't know how she made it, her story is getting suspicious... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Konig Des Todes.2086 Posted October 12, 2017 Share Posted October 12, 2017 > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > The Dream and the Nightmare are not two different dimensions and Mord's mind is yet another dimension. There is this thing they call "balance" and it is the balance of the Dream and Nightmare. The Nightmare Court has been trying to tip that balance in their favor. Now the question is, who's dreams and nightmares are these? Mordremoth's. When Faolin found this out, she rejected the Nightmare too because all she wanted was freedom. The Dream is simply part of Mordremoth's mind that is under the protection of Ventari's tablet. > > What if the "Wyld Hunt" is Mordremoth's way to persuade Sylvaris on killing the other dragons so he can absorb their powers? It does create a lot of doubts in the Dream and the Pale Tree's protections. The [White Stag](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/White_Stag) actually proves that the Dream has nothing to do with Mordremoth. Moreso, [the player character gets a Wyld Hunt to kill Mordremoth](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_World_Summit), so why would Mordremoth give the Pact Commander the task of killing himself? Furthermore, we're shown rather explicitly with the Nightmare Court's offensive against Mordremoth that the Nightmare is also opposed to Mordremoth. Both Dream and Nightmare are opposed to him. There's no indication of any mordrem being part of the Dream, and not all sylvari are tied to the Dream either (see Malyck). Only the Pale Tree, and through her her children, the White Stag, and Mordremoth are known to be connected to teh Dream. Mordremoth is merely hijacking the mindscape, he's not the origin of it. > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > Well, falling under the mind control of the dragon is a metal corruption. Other species are simply cloned from subjects trapped into those vats or pods and others are reduced to a gel and recreated from those "stranger blisters". Thus, Mordremoth's form of corruption is different and it deals with metal corruptions. "Mental corruption" is not the same as "dragon corruption". The Mordrem Guard still have free will, but they've been tricked and fooled by Mordremoth's machinations. Dragon corruption changes the body from Material A to Material B, and removes the individual's free will, overriding it with the Elder Dragon's will. Mordrem Guard have neither case to them. Their change in physiology has actually been explained long before, via Canach, Scarlet, and Caithe (in that order of reveal), where we learn that great mental trauma can result in a sylvari's appearance changing. Mordremoth doesn't corrupt, he brainwashes. And that's nothing close to the same thing. Trying to argue "well it's still corruption!" is a false argument. Pure and simple. > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > The Mordrem Guard is a perfect example of those who have weak mental fortitude. True, but they're not corrupted. > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > Mordremoth definitely uses temptations. In the final fight, if you are Sylvari, Caithe or Canach will urge you to reject Mord. Mord uses a lot of temptations during that fight. Those aren't temptations at all. In the case of sylvari PC, he's literally just flooding your brain with thoughts (like during Bitter Harvest). In the case of Canach, Braham, an the Pale Tree he's just throwing the individual's worst nightmares in the concept of enslavement to Mordremoth and saying "this is how it should be". Same with the Blighted Rytlock, etc. in the final fight. That's not temptations. That's bludgeoning with fears. > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > I don't see Kral blotting the sun from that excerpt. The observer might simply be overestimating Kral's size due to the black clouds and bolts of lightning. However, Queen Jenna was able to project an illusion of the Elder Dragon, so Kral can't be that big. The except literally says "it engulfed the sky." And not to mention there's another one at the beginning of the same chapter, where it says the same thing but specifically about Kralkatorrik's wings. Jennah can create a feedback bubble the size of a city. She created an illusion that was created to look far away - so she didn't create it to size, but smaller to force a false perspective on the dragon minions. > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > Mordremoth traps animals and other beings in the vats or pods and uses them as the template for his creations. The only creatures he corrupts are the Sylvari, mentally of course, because the Sylvari is already a product of that process. So you're saying that he produces all those mordrem hylek, thrashers, grunts, etc. out of literal thin air? Or are you saying those are all actually twisted sylvari? Also [you're wrong](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mordrem_Wolf) [times two](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mordrem_Troll), both trolls and wolves are corrupted animals. Possibly the [wyverns](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Legendary_Mordrem_Wyvern) as well. > @Athrenn.9468 said: > The authors of _Ghosts of Ascalon_ and _Edge of Destiny_ describe the process of the Dragonbrand's formation so differently that I would have to chalk it up to artistic license rather than any canonical reason. > > [...] > > There was no breath described in Almorra's account, and according to her, it was the mere passage that caused the Branding. _Ghosts_ was published in July 2010 and _Edge_ was published in December of that same year so it's entirely possible that the first novel contained a first draft version of the Branding which was later refined and included in Edge of Destiny's final draft. I think that would explain the discrepancy more than any in-world reason. > > EDIT: Another major difference between the two books is that in _Ghosts_, Almorra made no mention of "a million tons of air" being flapped down on her warband which was supposedly enough to break a charr's bones just from the mere act of Kralkatorrik taking off and flying over them. (Edge of Destiny; p.347). So you chalk it up to the error of the author, rather than the concept of unreliable narrator which ArenaNet uses all the time? Interesting deduction. Or maybe Almorra was not telling every single tiny little detail in her retelling. And the "million tons of air" thing was from Kralkatorrik taking off, not from his actual flight. He'd have been high enough in the air, with enough propulsion that he wouldn't be causing that the entire time. Taking off always require stronger force than maintaining flight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Konig Des Todes.2086 Posted October 12, 2017 Share Posted October 12, 2017 > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said: > > Edge of Destiny states that Kralkatorrik is 1,000 feet tall, and had a wingspan that blocked out the sky to those underneath him. And then there's that above quote about the sky being shadowed while in Ebonhawke. > > > > You do not need "precise measurements" to figure out that Kralkatorrik is wider than the width of the Dragonbrand. Especially now that we got his head in-game. > > > > Almorra wasn't directly underneath the center of Kralkatorrik, nor was she affected by the golden gale breath that Kralkatorrik used to create that initial Dragonbrand (something he apparently no longer needed as of the end of Path of Fire - perhaps due to Zhaitan's domain of shadow? Or just his general power boost). Hell, she doesn't even make mention of the golden gale, despite it being repeatedly mentioned in Edge of Destiny. So obviously she wasn't engulfed by it. > > Ok I look this up and according to the wiki, Almorra was surrounded by Branded; > > "Soulkeeper waited for her warsiblings to tear each other apart, before stepping in and dispatching the survivors. When she was done, **she looked before and behind herself and saw that every part of the land that had passed beneath the dragon had been twisted in this same way**." > > She's there, dead center. This is actually proof that Almorra is an unreliable narrator, in fact. [Here is the reason why](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Birthplace_of_the_Vigil). We go to the spot where Almorra's warband was corrupted. It's a hero challenge. **And it is on the edge of the Dragonbrand.** Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pax.3548 Posted October 12, 2017 Share Posted October 12, 2017 I always assumed Almorra was just lucky to survive the brand because she was on a spot where the dragon's breath didn't reach her, as far as we've seen, read or heard, anything in contact with kalkatorrik's breath as been corrupted, even the earth itself (exception being the ghost of ascalon). Whatever info we're given, Almorra coulnd't have been left uncorrupted if she was standing on a spot hit by the dragon's breath, so her luck was such, that where she standed wasn't hit by kalkatorrik's corruptive breath, even if that spot was so near the dragon's flight path. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Athrenn.9468 Posted October 12, 2017 Share Posted October 12, 2017 > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said: > So you chalk it up to the error of the author, rather than the concept of unreliable narrator which ArenaNet uses all the time? Interesting deduction. Or maybe Almorra was not telling every single tiny little detail in her retelling. Unreliable indeed, she even forgot that she was a Blood Legion tribune at the time and claimed that she was a mere legionnaire. The Vigil really ought to give her a full psychological evaluation if she's that senile and relieve her of military command. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seffen.2875 Posted October 12, 2017 Share Posted October 12, 2017 Caves. Yes, definitly Caves. And blue Crystals that can create a bubble. Piloted by Dschinns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
draxynnic.3719 Posted October 12, 2017 Share Posted October 12, 2017 > @Fenom.9457 said: > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > > > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said: > > > Edge of Destiny states that Kralkatorrik is 1,000 feet tall, and had a wingspan that blocked out the sky to those underneath him. And then there's that above quote about the sky being shadowed while in Ebonhawke. > > > > > > You do not need "precise measurements" to figure out that Kralkatorrik is wider than the width of the Dragonbrand. Especially now that we got his head in-game. > > > > > > Almorra wasn't directly underneath the center of Kralkatorrik, nor was she affected by the golden gale breath that Kralkatorrik used to create that initial Dragonbrand (something he apparently no longer needed as of the end of Path of Fire - perhaps due to Zhaitan's domain of shadow? Or just his general power boost). Hell, she doesn't even make mention of the golden gale, despite it being repeatedly mentioned in Edge of Destiny. So obviously she wasn't engulfed by it. > > > > Ok I look this up and according to the wiki, Almorra was surrounded by Branded; > > > > "Soulkeeper waited for her warsiblings to tear each other apart, before stepping in and dispatching the survivors. When she was done, **she looked before and behind herself and saw that every part of the land that had passed beneath the dragon had been twisted in this same way**." > > > > She's there, dead center. > > > > one in a million luck not to be branded? don't know how she made it, her story is getting suspicious... One in a million chances crop up nine times out of ten. More seriously, highly improbable events can happen if there are a lot of repetitions. Rather than exaggerating the odds to one in a million, let's say that there was a one in a hundred chance for a warband caught on the edge of the Brand to have at least one uncorrupted member, and a one in ten chance for at least one uncorrupted member to then survive the resulting battle. These are still fairly low odds on an individual basis, but if there were a thousand warbands caught in the Brand, then the odds of having at least one Almorra become quite high. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Konig Des Todes.2086 Posted October 12, 2017 Share Posted October 12, 2017 > @draxynnic.3719 said: > > @Fenom.9457 said: > > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > > > > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said: > > > > Edge of Destiny states that Kralkatorrik is 1,000 feet tall, and had a wingspan that blocked out the sky to those underneath him. And then there's that above quote about the sky being shadowed while in Ebonhawke. > > > > > > > > You do not need "precise measurements" to figure out that Kralkatorrik is wider than the width of the Dragonbrand. Especially now that we got his head in-game. > > > > > > > > Almorra wasn't directly underneath the center of Kralkatorrik, nor was she affected by the golden gale breath that Kralkatorrik used to create that initial Dragonbrand (something he apparently no longer needed as of the end of Path of Fire - perhaps due to Zhaitan's domain of shadow? Or just his general power boost). Hell, she doesn't even make mention of the golden gale, despite it being repeatedly mentioned in Edge of Destiny. So obviously she wasn't engulfed by it. > > > > > > Ok I look this up and according to the wiki, Almorra was surrounded by Branded; > > > > > > "Soulkeeper waited for her warsiblings to tear each other apart, before stepping in and dispatching the survivors. When she was done, **she looked before and behind herself and saw that every part of the land that had passed beneath the dragon had been twisted in this same way**." > > > > > > She's there, dead center. > > > > > > > > one in a million luck not to be branded? don't know how she made it, her story is getting suspicious... > > One in a million chances crop up nine times out of ten. > > More seriously, highly improbable events can happen if there are a lot of repetitions. Rather than exaggerating the odds to one in a million, let's say that there was a one in a hundred chance for a warband caught on the edge of the Brand to have at least one uncorrupted member, and a one in ten chance for at least one uncorrupted member to then survive the resulting battle. These are still fairly low odds on an individual basis, but if there were a thousand warbands caught in the Brand, then the odds of having at least one Almorra become quite high. Not to mention that in Elon Riverlands there's another charr who had the same story as Almorra, except he ran (with a cub in hand) rather than witness the corruption and kill them on the spot (he returned later to kill them). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Vincent III.1286 Posted October 12, 2017 Share Posted October 12, 2017 > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said: > The [White Stag](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/White_Stag) actually proves that the Dream has nothing to do with Mordremoth. Moreso, [the player character gets a Wyld Hunt to kill Mordremoth](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_World_Summit), so why would Mordremoth give the Pact Commander the task of killing himself? > If you look at the sequence of events, Mord is not supposed to wake yet but Scarlet believes that it's time and took it upon herself to wake him and because of what she did, Mord became a priority for the Pact. In all the Elder Dragons, he's the one who has not been active. Even the water dragon showed movement if that certain cinematic is to be believed. > Furthermore, we're shown rather explicitly with the Nightmare Court's offensive against Mordremoth that the Nightmare is also opposed to Mordremoth. Both Dream and Nightmare are opposed to him. There's no indication of any mordrem being part of the Dream, and not all sylvari are tied to the Dream either (see Malyck). Only the Pale Tree, and through her her children, the White Stag, and Mordremoth are known to be connected to teh Dream. Mordremoth is merely hijacking the mindscape, he's not the origin of it. > That may be so. However, the very existence of the Dream and the Nightmare implies that they reside in someone's consciousness. Our own dream and nightmares do not fully occupy our mind, thus certain part of Mord's mind is where the Dream is and some part is the Nightmare. The Nightmare Court knows about the existence of Mord's mind and they taught they are part of it when in fact, they simply created their own safe space in Mord's consciousness just like what the Pale Tree did. When the Court found out what the Nightmare is all about, they don't want it. This actually reminds me of the Dr. Strange movie where the Dormammu's Zealots believe on something Dormammu promised them but it's not something they expected. This kind of antagonist is very common. As for the origin, here's what the wiki has to say; "Later events have revealed that the sylvari are minions of the Elder Dragon Mordremoth. The Pale Tree — and a single Firstborn who had seen the truth in her Dream — knowingly kept this secret from other sylvari and the rest of Tyria in order to keep her children safe." This in reference to the event in Living Story Season 2 when we talk to Caithe; Commander: Tell me, is it true? Caithe: Which part? Did I murder one of my fellow firstborn? Do we sylvari come from an Elder Dragon? (sigh) Yes...it's all true. > "Mental corruption" is not the same as "dragon corruption". The Mordrem Guard still have free will, but they've been tricked and fooled by Mordremoth's machinations. Dragon corruption changes the body from Material A to Material B, and removes the individual's free will, overriding it with the Elder Dragon's will. Mordrem Guard have neither case to them. Their change in physiology has actually been explained long before, via Canach, Scarlet, and Caithe (in that order of reveal), where we learn that great mental trauma can result in a sylvari's appearance changing. > > Mordremoth doesn't corrupt, he brainwashes. And that's nothing close to the same thing. Trying to argue "well it's still corruption!" is a false argument. Pure and simple. > Here's what Laranthil has to say about Mord's way of corruptions; Laranthir of the Wild: And then there was the call. All of us Sylvari heard it, and many followed Mordremoth's commands, turning on their Pact allies. When you say "dragon corruption" you're actually talking about physical change. Well each dragon has they're own way of corruption and not each of them corrupts the same way. Take Zaithan, for example, he doesn't corrupt anyone because he only corrupts things that's already dead which is a state of no resistance. Thus, Mord's "dragon corruption" (and I believe all of them do the same thing) targets the mind then the body. The reason why Sylvari does not physically change is that they already spawns of Mordremoth (see LS2 ref above). The wiki state this about Elder Dragons; "While awake, the Elder Dragons can actively exude unique draconic energies which cause individuals and landscapes touched by it to become corrupted into their minions" Nothing says that they are changed physically which is safe to assume that physical change is just one of many ways the dragon's energy can corrupt something -- that when these energies are resisted, they cannot be corrupted. So far, by observing Zaithan, Mord and Kral, their corruption can be and has been resisted. The Sylvari resisted Zaithan only because when they die, they simply become plants. They may look human but the necessary nervous system to reanimate the dead is not there. > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > > The Mordrem Guard is a perfect example of those who have weak mental fortitude. > > True, but they're not corrupted. > It seems that you have a strange definition for what corruption is. Here's an example for clarity; my computer files are corrupted without any physical changes to my computer. > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > > Mordremoth definitely uses temptations. In the final fight, if you are Sylvari, Caithe or Canach will urge you to reject Mord. Mord uses a lot of temptations during that fight. > > Those aren't temptations at all. In the case of sylvari PC, he's literally just flooding your brain with thoughts (like during Bitter Harvest). In the case of Canach, Braham, an the Pale Tree he's just throwing the individual's worst nightmares in the concept of enslavement to Mordremoth and saying "this is how it should be". Same with the Blighted Rytlock, etc. in the final fight. That's not temptations. That's bludgeoning with fears. > The Blighted Pale Tree one is not about fear. She says things as; Blighted Pale Tree: Come, children. Embrace your Pale Mother. That is a temptation. > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > > I don't see Kral blotting the sun from that excerpt. The observer might simply be overestimating Kral's size due to the black clouds and bolts of lightning. However, Queen Jenna was able to project an illusion of the Elder Dragon, so Kral can't be that big. > > The except literally says "it engulfed the sky." And not to mention there's another one at the beginning of the same chapter, where it says the same thing but specifically about Kralkatorrik's wings. > We don't know that for certain. As far as we can tell, when Kral flies, he is always covered with clouds and lightning which make it hard to discern his features or size. A lightning at the background will give an exaggerated shadow on the clouds at the foreground and gives a wrong impression of scale to the observer. > Jennah can create a feedback bubble the size of a city. She created an illusion that was created to look far away - so she didn't create it to size, but smaller to force a false perspective on the dragon minions. > That doesn't sound plausible to me. When Glint was fighting Kral, he's not that big relative to Glint, knowing the size of Glint from GW1, plus seeing him when fighting Balthazar. > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > > Mordremoth traps animals and other beings in the vats or pods and uses them as the template for his creations. The only creatures he corrupts are the Sylvari, mentally of course, because the Sylvari is already a product of that process. > > So you're saying that he produces all those mordrem hylek, thrashers, grunts, etc. out of literal thin air? > > Or are you saying those are all actually twisted sylvari? > > Also [you're wrong](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mordrem_Wolf) [times two](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mordrem_Troll), both trolls and wolves are corrupted animals. Possibly the [wyverns](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Legendary_Mordrem_Wyvern) as well. > No. During the Jungle Provides, we discover that those are made from the "strange blisters". Then when we rescued Logan and Zojja, we found out exactly how Mord does it. "Mordrem" is just a designation that suggests the being has been corrupted by Mord in case of Sylvari and clone in case of everything else. Just like the Mordrem Wolves, they are wolf clones when the actual body of the wolf is in a vat or pod somewhere. From the wiki; "Many mordrem are closer to clones, created corrupting plant matter that is shaped into near perfect replicas of beings both living and dead that are used as base templates in the minion creation process, the original having been placed in a Mordrem Pod (for the living) or a Blighting Pod (for the dead)." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Vincent III.1286 Posted October 12, 2017 Share Posted October 12, 2017 > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said: > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > > > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said: > > > Edge of Destiny states that Kralkatorrik is 1,000 feet tall, and had a wingspan that blocked out the sky to those underneath him. And then there's that above quote about the sky being shadowed while in Ebonhawke. > > > > > > You do not need "precise measurements" to figure out that Kralkatorrik is wider than the width of the Dragonbrand. Especially now that we got his head in-game. > > > > > > Almorra wasn't directly underneath the center of Kralkatorrik, nor was she affected by the golden gale breath that Kralkatorrik used to create that initial Dragonbrand (something he apparently no longer needed as of the end of Path of Fire - perhaps due to Zhaitan's domain of shadow? Or just his general power boost). Hell, she doesn't even make mention of the golden gale, despite it being repeatedly mentioned in Edge of Destiny. So obviously she wasn't engulfed by it. > > > > Ok I look this up and according to the wiki, Almorra was surrounded by Branded; > > > > "Soulkeeper waited for her warsiblings to tear each other apart, before stepping in and dispatching the survivors. When she was done, **she looked before and behind herself and saw that every part of the land that had passed beneath the dragon had been twisted in this same way**." > > > > She's there, dead center. > > This is actually proof that Almorra is an unreliable narrator, in fact. [Here is the reason why](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Birthplace_of_the_Vigil). We go to the spot where Almorra's warband was corrupted. It's a hero challenge. **And it is on the edge of the Dragonbrand.** That Hero Point is surrounded by brands. Edit: Reference: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/File:Lowland_Burns_map.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Konig Des Todes.2086 Posted October 12, 2017 Share Posted October 12, 2017 > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said: > > The [White Stag](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/White_Stag) actually proves that the Dream has nothing to do with Mordremoth. Moreso, [the player character gets a Wyld Hunt to kill Mordremoth](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_World_Summit), so why would Mordremoth give the Pact Commander the task of killing himself? > > > > If you look at the sequence of events, Mord is not supposed to wake yet but Scarlet believes that it's time and took it upon herself to wake him and because of what she did, Mord became a priority for the Pact. In all the Elder Dragons, he's the one who has not been active. Even the water dragon showed movement if that certain cinematic is to be believed. How does the Pact's priority at all be relevant to the Wyld Hunts a sylvari receive? You're trying to detract from the topic. > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > > Furthermore, we're shown rather explicitly with the Nightmare Court's offensive against Mordremoth that the Nightmare is also opposed to Mordremoth. Both Dream and Nightmare are opposed to him. There's no indication of any mordrem being part of the Dream, and not all sylvari are tied to the Dream either (see Malyck). Only the Pale Tree, and through her her children, the White Stag, and Mordremoth are known to be connected to teh Dream. Mordremoth is merely hijacking the mindscape, he's not the origin of it. > > > > That may be so. However, the very existence of the Dream and the Nightmare implies that they reside in someone's consciousness. Our own dream and nightmares do not fully occupy our mind, thus certain part of Mord's mind is where the Dream is and some part is the Nightmare. The Nightmare Court knows about the existence of Mord's mind and they taught they are part of it when in fact, they simply created their own safe space in Mord's consciousness just like what the Pale Tree did. When the Court found out what the Nightmare is all about, they don't want it. This actually reminds me of the Dr. Strange movie where the Dormammu's Zealots believe on something Dormammu promised them but it's not something they expected. This kind of antagonist is very common. > > As for the origin, here's what the wiki has to say; > "Later events have revealed that the sylvari are minions of the Elder Dragon Mordremoth. The Pale Tree — and a single Firstborn who had seen the truth in her Dream — knowingly kept this secret from other sylvari and the rest of Tyria in order to keep her children safe." > > This in reference to the event in Living Story Season 2 when we talk to Caithe; > Commander: Tell me, is it true? > Caithe: Which part? Did I murder one of my fellow firstborn? Do we sylvari come from an Elder Dragon? (sigh) Yes...it's all true. Nothing about the Dream or Nightmare imply they're someone's consciousness - or subconsciousness. I think you're taking their names too literally. The Nightmare Court didn't know about Mordremoth. Nor did they create the Nightmare - Faolain was the first to encounter the Nightmare, and the first Courtiers (willingly?) succumbed to it. That wiki line (which, btw, is fan written) doesn't talk about the origins of the Dream. It talks about the origin of Sylvari. Same with Caithe's line. Nothing about the Dream's origin in either part. > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > Here's what Laranthil has to say about Mord's way of corruptions; > Laranthir of the Wild: And then there was the call. All of us Sylvari heard it, and many followed Mordremoth's commands, turning on their Pact allies. > > When you say "dragon corruption" you're actually talking about physical change. Well each dragon has they're own way of corruption and not each of them corrupts the same way. Take Zaithan, for example, he doesn't corrupt anyone because he only corrupts things that's already dead which is a state of no resistance. Thus, Mord's "dragon corruption" (and I believe all of them do the same thing) targets the mind then the body. The reason why Sylvari does not physically change is that they already spawns of Mordremoth (see LS2 ref above). > > The wiki state this about Elder Dragons; > "While awake, the Elder Dragons can actively exude unique draconic energies which cause individuals and landscapes touched by it to become corrupted into their minions" > > Nothing says that they are changed physically which is safe to assume that physical change is just one of many ways the dragon's energy can corrupt something -- that when these energies are resisted, they cannot be corrupted. So far, by observing Zaithan, Mord and Kral, their corruption can be and has been resisted. The Sylvari resisted Zaithan only because when they die, they simply become plants. They may look human but the necessary nervous system to reanimate the dead is not there. Laranthir never mentions corruption. That only furthers my argument and harms yours. Zhaitan did corrupt the living - Necromancer Rissa and Corporal Kellach were both alive and corrupted. He also corrupts plants. While the Elder Dragons show a clear preference of what they want to corrupt and how, they also show that they can corrupt anything equally. Even Mordremoth corrupts animals and corpses himself. Even Jormag corrupts corpses. Even Primordus corrupts the living. Sylvari were resistant to all dragon corruption. We never once see anything resist any dragon's corruption. The only resisting we see is Jora ignoring the whispering temptations of Drakkar (not corruption). [Zhaitan corrupts plants,](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Corrupted_Tree) so why would he be unable to corrupt sylvari if the only thing that kept them from being corrupted was their plant nature? That makes no sense. > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > > > The Mordrem Guard is a perfect example of those who have weak mental fortitude. > > > > True, but they're not corrupted. > > > > It seems that you have a strange definition for what corruption is. Here's an example for clarity; my computer files are corrupted without any physical changes to my computer. You seem to have an incapability to understand that I was meaning "suffering from dragon corruption". "Corrupt" in of itself has many definitions. And you're strawmaning here, using a completely different definition of the word in an attempt to make me seem inept. > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > > > Mordremoth definitely uses temptations. In the final fight, if you are Sylvari, Caithe or Canach will urge you to reject Mord. Mord uses a lot of temptations during that fight. > > > > Those aren't temptations at all. In the case of sylvari PC, he's literally just flooding your brain with thoughts (like during Bitter Harvest). In the case of Canach, Braham, an the Pale Tree he's just throwing the individual's worst nightmares in the concept of enslavement to Mordremoth and saying "this is how it should be". Same with the Blighted Rytlock, etc. in the final fight. That's not temptations. That's bludgeoning with fears. > > > > The Blighted Pale Tree one is not about fear. She says things as; > Blighted Pale Tree: Come, children. Embrace your Pale Mother. > > That is a temptation. The Blighting Pale Tree itself is Caithe's fear - her fear of how sylvari would be if they succumb in whole to Mordremoth. The BPT's words are not temptation, they are a reflection of Caithe's fear of the Pale Tree becoming blighted; the words exchanged by the Blighted Pale Tree is how Caithe believes the Pale Tree would act were it taken by Mordremoth. > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > > > I don't see Kral blotting the sun from that excerpt. The observer might simply be overestimating Kral's size due to the black clouds and bolts of lightning. However, Queen Jenna was able to project an illusion of the Elder Dragon, so Kral can't be that big. > > > > The except literally says "it engulfed the sky." And not to mention there's another one at the beginning of the same chapter, where it says the same thing but specifically about Kralkatorrik's wings. > > > > We don't know that for certain. As far as we can tell, when Kral flies, he is always covered with clouds and lightning which make it hard to discern his features or size. A lightning at the background will give an exaggerated shadow on the clouds at the foreground and gives a wrong impression of scale to the observer. When Kralkatorrik first took flight, there were no clouds. Yet the wings still blocked out the sky. > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > > Jennah can create a feedback bubble the size of a city. She created an illusion that was created to look far away - so she didn't create it to size, but smaller to force a false perspective on the dragon minions. > > > > That doesn't sound plausible to me. When Glint was fighting Kral, he's not that big relative to Glint, knowing the size of Glint from GW1, plus seeing him when fighting Balthazar. Given EoD's description, Glint grew between GW1 and GW2 as well (her wingspan the size of her outer sanctum, her claw as large as an asura). But I fail to see what that has to do with Jennah creating a smaller-than-actual-size illusion. > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > > > Mordremoth traps animals and other beings in the vats or pods and uses them as the template for his creations. The only creatures he corrupts are the Sylvari, mentally of course, because the Sylvari is already a product of that process. > > > > So you're saying that he produces all those mordrem hylek, thrashers, grunts, etc. out of literal thin air? > > > > Or are you saying those are all actually twisted sylvari? > > > > Also [you're wrong](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mordrem_Wolf) [times two](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mordrem_Troll), both trolls and wolves are corrupted animals. Possibly the [wyverns](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Legendary_Mordrem_Wyvern) as well. > > > > No. During the Jungle Provides, we discover that those are made from the "strange blisters". Then when we rescued Logan and Zojja, we found out exactly how Mord does it. > > "Mordrem" is just a designation that suggests the being has been corrupted by Mord in case of Sylvari and clone in case of everything else. Just like the Mordrem Wolves, they are wolf clones when the actual body of the wolf is in a vat or pod somewhere. > > From the wiki; > "Many mordrem are closer to clones, created corrupting plant matter that is shaped into near perfect replicas of beings both living and dead that are used as base templates in the minion creation process, the original having been placed in a Mordrem Pod (for the living) or a Blighting Pod (for the dead)." The Mordrem Pods/Blighting Pods are used to house the living and dead so that completely separate minions can be formed off of the body being used as a template. The Mordrem Wolves and Mordrem Trolls have the actual body as part of themselves. They are corrupted corpses. Hell, we even had a developer (Scott McGough) outright said such: Mordremoth’s corruption is analogous to weeds and moss invading a garden and totally taking it over. The invader (for the purposes of this analogy, the weeds and moss) claims the nutrients and resources that would otherwise go to the existing plants, surrounds and envelops the native plants and digests them/converts them into more raw material it can use to grow, and then spreads outward, colonizing as it goes. The invader continues to get stronger and expand while the native plants are choked out/starved/digested and wither away. **This sort of overwhelming growth/colonization can also be seen in the bodies of its minions like the Mordrem Wolf or Mordrem Troll (who were originally something else before they became Mordremoth minions**—I’d call out an analogy to Alan Moore’s excellent classic Swamp Thing story, “The Anatomy Lesson,” where the creature’s original body is slowly replaced by plant material until you have essentially a plant version of the original that has the same general form but not necessarily the same function); there are also things like the Mordrem Vine Crawlers and Tendril Roots, **which Mordy basically crafted from scratch using the plant material at hand.** https://forum-en.guildwars2.com/forum/game/lore/Lore-Q-A/page/2#post6175329 Mordrem were created using either corrupted plant material (the vast majority) or corrupted corpses (Wolves and Trolls, maybe a few others unclear to us). > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said: > > This is actually proof that Almorra is an unreliable narrator, in fact. [Here is the reason why](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Birthplace_of_the_Vigil). We go to the spot where Almorra's warband was corrupted. It's a hero challenge. **And it is on the edge of the Dragonbrand.** > > That Hero Point is surrounded by brands. > > Edit: Reference: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/File:Lowland_Burns_map.jpg The edge of the brand is not even five feet from the commune point. Unless you're saying they were all dogpiling on top of each other, if that commune point was the center of the warband, then Almorra could have easily been standing to the side. Alternatively, Almora could have been in the enclave there. Edge of Destiny makes it a point of Destiny's Edge dodging Kralkatorrik's corruption by dodging into niches and enclaves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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