Balance Issue Invurlnerability

[Arcaedus.7290]

> @Aza.2105 said:

> > @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

> > > @Aza.2105 said:

> > > Look, evade is just like invul. You can't take damage. There is no difference besides the name.

>

> You can't evade wards and DH's spear of justice. I think that is about it. In other words a very niche selection of skills.

>

>

 

This is true. However, wards in this game are pretty trash: You can still shadow-step through them. You experience knockdown but still port to the "outside" of the ward. Not only that, but there are essentially only two wards you have to watch out for: Hammer 5 and Longbow 5. Hammer 5 roots the guard during cast and can be deadly if you have no shadowsteps or stab but is on a 40s cooldown. Longbow 5 on the other hand is extremely easy to avoid.

[Swagg.9236]

The concern raised by this thread hits the nail on the head. To stop the semantics argument, the phrase you are all looking for is: **the cooldown-based ability to take offensive action while negating incoming damage or effects**. That is what ruins PvP.

 

It is really worth anything to argue the minuscule differences between evade, block, and invulnerability right now? Despite their real differences, is it worth arguing how one of them has more counterplay than the other when said counterplay is not evenly distributed across all classes? If every class had a baseline "Your next 3 attacks are unblockable" ability on their bar, then we could talk about how maybe "blocking" is strong or weak compared to the other defensive options. However, since this is not the case, the debate is pretty moot; and the same situation goes for evasion and being invulnerable (particularly the latter since it provides absolutely no active counterplay opportunities whatsoever). You can't talk about one of those three things being "strong" or "weak" when there is no global counterplay option for all of them respectively.

 

A few things more to consider:

 

* Is it fair for a game which features a time-to-kill (TTK) of something like 2 seconds (which isn't healthy for a game like this, by the way) to drown its players in perfect damage negation which can extend for up to 8 seconds if chained together? Especially considering that while negating damage, most players players will be taking offensive actions?

* Is popping a defensive cooldown in order to survive an attacker who is negating incoming damage and effects an example of true counterplay? Or is it just reactive cooldown dancing without any real thought to it? With only "good positioning" and "creative use" of your offensive skills, will you survive and beat a player spamming blocks/evades while attacking and ignoring CC (and possibly even teleporting)? Probably not given the state of GW2.

* Is the fact that conditions continue to tick through block, evade and invulnerability really "counterplay" since a player had to apply that passive damage before an enemy started to perfectly negate all incoming damage?

* Are wards/walls even all that effective given how easy it is to bathe one's self in stability during an offensive opener?

 

Conclusively, GW2 has far, far too much passive and defensive play in the meta (most likely because of how most of a player's skills are high-damage attacks). In a world in which autoattacks can crit for 2-4k, what is the worth of two dodges? The awful, damage negation meta is a response to powercreep. If damage on all sides just came down a lot, we could see all this passive defense phased out.

 

 

[Daishi.6027]

Something to consider:

Supposed problematic class uses defensive cooldown + dmg cooldowns.

So would the proper response not be to use your defensive cooldowns so they don't have theirs, or their damage when it comes time to retaliate?

 

Also Condis tick through most things...

 

An imbalance arises only when a class at no cost beyond the cooldown has a ton of on demand evade/block/invuln, or a few options that can be chained or supplemented with passives, while in combination with either really fast output for damage, or crazy team support that breaks Conquest team fights.

(kinda like S1 Chrono bunk which we've thankfully have not had anything **as** bad since.)

[Unholy Pillager.3791]

> @Daishi.6027 said:

> Something to consider:

> Supposed problematic class uses defensive cooldown + dmg cooldowns.

> So would the proper response not be to use your defensive cooldowns so they don't have theirs, or their damage when it comes time to retaliate?

>

> Also Condis tick through most things...

>

> An imbalance arises only when a class at no cost beyond the cooldown has a ton of on demand evade/block/invuln, or a few options that can be chained or supplemented with passives, while in combination with either really fast output for damage, or crazy team support that breaks Conquest team fights.

> (kinda like S1 Chrono bunk which we've thankfully have not had anything **as** bad since.)

 

Spellbreaker is close, given it uses a much more offensive amulet yet can be difficult to put down even in a 2v1 unless you're both power with high DPS.

[Razor.6392]

The only skill that stands out in there is Obsi flesh, because it's a weapon skill. I'm kinda biased but I feel like ele _needs_ this to survive, while for other classes, their respective invulns are just the icing on top.

 

Invulns, especially passive ones, should get a MASSIVE cooldown increase. I'm talking about 2-5 minutes for autoproc ones (elixir S, endure pain) and at least 90 seconds for active ones.

 

In a perfect world, skills that allow you to avoid damage while nuking at the same time shouldn't exist.

[Kaga.7629]

Endure pain has already been nerfed to 2 seconds. In fact signet of stone ( ranger) is now 3 times the invuln that i have!

The defense trait is taken by most people because the auto-endurepain act as a circuit breaker. It's also been part of core warrior pretty much for years.

 

Did you also know that warrior cleanse was directly nerfed by 66% by converting all specialisation bursts from level 3 to 1, with a corresponding number less cleanse per burst ?

 

Warrior "sustain" has already had many hits.

[shinta.8906]

i forgot earth shield #5 on ele that roots you too. same as racial sylvari skill.

 

esp on ele i think it is fair and i play ele only since 4 years. controle weapons dont defeat their purpose when they get outperformed by dps weapon choices in a 1v1. you actually see that very well on sw/f vs sw/d weaver. dagger offhand will outperform dps wise the /focus user but that doesnt mean its more viable in xvx. this is due to its lack of burst options. and one of the very few things they got right on weaver.

now check invurln + burst classes/builds and u get the problem.

[Shirlias.8104]

> @shinta.8906 said:

> thief instant reflexes (while it says evade it acts the same as invurln)

 

Does it prevent capture?

 

[choovanski.5462]

tbh, I feel like nerfing defenses without looking at damage would absolutely ruin this game. like make it unplayable

 

these invuns and evades that y'all are complaining about are the only things making this game playable w the current damage levels

 

I know some of you want a 'first burst 2 win' meta, but it's not going to be as fun as y'all think it will be

 

edit: yup, and there's now a post under mine advocating removing downstate. what's the deal? do you guys all want this game to play like CS.GO with 1sec TTK?

[Vasdamas Anklast.1607]

Invulnerability, save stomps, save res and downstate in general I think is the major problem this game's pvp has.

[Swagg.9236]

> @Kaga.7629 said:

> Warrior "sustain" has already had many hits.

 

Arbitrary complaints don't address the overall problem. Don't be so near-sighted when every class is basically crippled by forced build choices in order to barely survive GW2's overtuned damage. Just because Warriors have taken hits doesn't mean that what they do isn't obnoxious. The same could be said for any class.

 

[Damocles.4908]

> @KrHome.1920 said:

> > @choovanski.5462 said:

> >condi damage or cc

> Okay next time I fight a warrior I just CC him. Pretty sure that will work fine.... NOT.

>

> And if there is one melee class, that counters a scourge's absurd amout of condi pressure (CC and damage), then it's spellbreaker.

>

 

As a core playing character I have literally no choice but to take endure pain for the aoe damage spam most Pof and Hot abilities

[Unholy Pillager.3791]

> @Razor.6392 said:

> The only skill that stands out in there is Obsi flesh, because it's a weapon skill. I'm kinda biased but I feel like ele _needs_ this to survive, while for other classes, their respective invulns are just the icing on top.

>

> Invulns, especially passive ones, should get a MASSIVE cooldown increase. I'm talking about 2-5 minutes for autoproc ones (elixir S, endure pain) and at least 90 seconds for active ones.

>

> In a perfect world, skills that allow you to avoid damage while nuking at the same time shouldn't exist.

 

Elixir S does _not_ allow you to nuke while invulnerable. Why are you lumping it into that category?

[Felipe.1807]

> @Kaga.7629 said:

> Endure pain has already been nerfed to 2 seconds. In fact signet of stone ( ranger) is now 3 times the invuln that i have!

> The defense trait is taken by most people because the auto-endurepain act as a circuit breaker. It's also been part of core warrior pretty much for years.

>

> Did you also know that warrior cleanse was directly nerfed by 66% by converting all specialisation bursts from level 3 to 1, with a corresponding number less cleanse per burst ?

>

> Warrior "sustain" has already had many hits.

 

Yeah, and now we have counter on top off damage immunity, shield block, high regen by signet and adrenal health, high mobility from greatsword...lets face it, war it pretty much the only profession that can go full berzerker and still have way more survival then most of the bunker builds, and can actually kill stuff lol...you might say that you are talking about core war, but you cant talk about Warrior without taking both Berzerker andSpellbreaker into consideration.

[Loop.8106]

That's the thing. Warriors are "balanced" around invulns, be it Resistance or Endure. This offers little to no counter-play compared to a class that relies on Protection, Evasion or Blocks. Having the highest Stability up-time outside of Scrapper and Rev, (which are both unplayable atm due to the condis.) as well as healing that can't be interrupted.

Couple all of these things and you have what the warrior is now. Tweak the numbers slightly in any direction and they will go from useless to overpowered or the other way around. There has never been any middle ground for warriors and I doubt there ever will be for as long as Berserker Stance / Endure Pain is a thing. It just offers too much for too little.

[Razor.6392]

> @"Unholy Pillager.3791" said:

> > @Razor.6392 said:

> > The only skill that stands out in there is Obsi flesh, because it's a weapon skill. I'm kinda biased but I feel like ele _needs_ this to survive, while for other classes, their respective invulns are just the icing on top.

> >

> > Invulns, especially passive ones, should get a MASSIVE cooldown increase. I'm talking about 2-5 minutes for autoproc ones (elixir S, endure pain) and at least 90 seconds for active ones.

> >

> > In a perfect world, skills that allow you to avoid damage while nuking at the same time shouldn't exist.

>

> Elixir S does _not_ allow you to nuke while invulnerable. Why are you lumping it into that category?

 

I wasn't specifically talking about elixir S in that. It was more of UA, Rocket charge, etc. But I edited that out because of the whole debate of evade vs actual invuln. My b.