WvW post sand savant nerf

[God.2708]

> @"Turkeyspit.3965" said:

> > @"Sovereign.1093" said:

> > > @"Turkeyspit.3965" said:

> > > > @"DeadlySynz.3471" said:

> > > > I believe that speaks volumes about how the players as a whole feel about the changes.

> > >

> > > The question is, are players swapping from Scourge to another profession, or just not logging into WvW at all? I never played Scourge in WvW, but I did play Heal Scourge in fractals, and when they first gutted the shade mechanic, that was the last time I ever played Scourge in T4s.

> > >

> > >

> >

> > in pve pvp the shades thru savant still do 10 targets. only in wvw was the change and the f1 actually cds faster in pve :3 hence it was kinda buffed except in wvw. >3<

>

> While factually correct, that wasn't my issue at all. As soon as they changed the mechanic where your F2-F5 would only manifest on your shade, or only on yourself without a shade, it effectively killed Heal Scourge in Fractals unless all 5 players are stacked on the mobs (GL with that in your typical LFG). It has nothing to do with 10 targets or WvW, but it was collateral damage fro man ill conceived and poorly executed nerf addressed at a completely different game mode.

 

That has now been modestly fixed via the CD reduction on shades. Can now comfortably maintain two shades at all times with 4s of wiggle room for a third with no cost to overall shade production. (Without the Sand Savant traited). Does require close stacking, but if your group isn't doing that Tempest was and still is a better carry.

[Sovereign.1093]

> @"Turkeyspit.3965" said:

> > @"Sovereign.1093" said:

> > > @"Turkeyspit.3965" said:

> > > > @"DeadlySynz.3471" said:

> > > > I believe that speaks volumes about how the players as a whole feel about the changes.

> > >

> > > The question is, are players swapping from Scourge to another profession, or just not logging into WvW at all? I never played Scourge in WvW, but I did play Heal Scourge in fractals, and when they first gutted the shade mechanic, that was the last time I ever played Scourge in T4s.

> > >

> > >

> >

> > in pve pvp the shades thru savant still do 10 targets. only in wvw was the change and the f1 actually cds faster in pve :3 hence it was kinda buffed except in wvw. >3<

>

> While factually correct, that wasn't my issue at all. As soon as they changed the mechanic where your F2-F5 would only manifest on your shade, or only on yourself without a shade, it effectively killed Heal Scourge in Fractals unless all 5 players are stacked on the mobs (GL with that in your typical LFG), at least for me. It has nothing to do with 10 targets or WvW, but it was collateral damage fro man ill conceived and poorly executed nerf addressed at a completely different game mode.

>

> No more being able to pump out barrier, might, and condi cleanse while also hitting about 10-12k DPS (Shaman/Marshal variant) which is what made it so fun to play.

 

ah well. :/

[subversiontwo.7501]

>@Sov said:

>bez probably is one of the best eu commanders. his team killed mine so many times over and over when i used to lead in desolation. there's three teams i can't say i can beat head on without gimiks and his team is one

Having been in those squads a fair bit recently, they tend to have quite diversified comping and actively use classes like Breakers (which I've played in it) and Weavers, far more actively than most other typical squads on other servers. I've even played Ranger with those squads recently :# . While it may not necessarily be something that is completely opposite to pirateship tactics it is also far from just pirateship tactics. It facilitates alot of classes or roles. I'm not sure if that is the point you are trying to make or the opposite.

 

>@Straegen said:

> Scourge is still the most efficient ground AoE spam class in the game so not much changed. They went from dominant large scale OP to dominant large scale OP.

That could be all good and well though. Something has to be the best at something and the role of Necromancers have always been to be the most efficient ranged ground target class or ranged ripping class. Like you say, dominant is not a problem, OP is a problem. Classes or their roles don't have to be dragged down into nothing to achieve a tolerable balance. They just have to make room for other classes to do other things.

 

>@Redshark said:

>Just nerf scrapper stealth, the stealth duration you can get from a moving smokefield is just too dang strong.

What was said above goes for this comment too. It isn't the end of the world if the Scrapper still has something it does well. There is not a major disparity between stealth gyro and other higher order forms of stealthing now. All the roles of the class does not have to be sent over to another class in order to achieve balance. Arguably, the Engineer is already at risk of that having had several of its niches sent over to other classes (passive healing -> shoutbreaker; reveals -> revs/breakers etc.). If you start chipping away at the Scrapper even more Engineer will soon have little to nothing left that it does anywhere. The kind of problem that Rangers or Mesmers struggle with too given the collective amount of nerfs over the past few years.

 

What they have done to the Druid or to the Chronomancer is not a good thing. While Scourges were understandably up in arms about nerfs to some of their key components I've also argued before that this change will not risk that for them (as per Straegen's comment above). Nore would I wish something like that upon Scrappers (or Engineers as a class that already have a very niched and narrow envelope in the game as a whole).

 

>@Dan @Simo @Sov

>Stuff about reveal nerf

There are only really two ways that stuff will play out. Trends now suggests that people rather move that kind of duty back to Revs primarily. It has already transpired in both GvG and larger fights. There are more classes that can reveal now but the role seems primarily overtaken by Revs for the time being. The other is as suggested that some people may still use Scrappers to add to reveals because it is a fun and useful aspect of the class at both medium- and large scale. However, they are likely to do that at the expense of Bulwark rather than anything else. Few Scrappers have used Elixir S in recent years since downcleave changed GvG and the older role of the Scrapper to be not only a reveal specialist but also a stealth-save specialist. So some Scrappers may use double cleanse and opt for reveals, then, at the expense of damage mitigation and stability for everyone else. Either losing the role or providing less tank and stability to the group should generally be regarded as a notable loss for WvW and not at all as something positive for the mode or the other classes in it. Revenants already had enough stuff to do and losses of tank or stability will negatively affect TTK.

 

At the end of the day, this change only turned back because ArenaNet are being ArenaNet. When the issue first came up when Pulse was moved back to a gyro, I remember taking to Reddit in order to plead a bit with the crowd there. Trying to plead to their sense of reason, noting how the loss of chemical field for sPvP or small scale WvW can't really compare to the loss of reveals for medium and large scale WvW. Was it a loss for them? Sure. Did they have much use for reveals? Perhaps not very much. However, the use they have out of the field is a laughable comparison to the use WvW has out of the pulse. However, some muppet drew a middle-school doodle about it and that is the feedback ArenaNet listens to over reason and logical argument. That is why balance is bad. It is what it is. I've assumed this change to come for a while now. I gave up on it early because people are stupid and I know ArenaNet by now.

[Sovereign.1093]

> @"subversiontwo.7501" said:

> >@Sov said:

> >bez probably is one of the best eu commanders. his team killed mine so many times over and over when i used to lead in desolation. there's three teams i can't say i can beat head on without gimiks and his team is one

> Having been in those squads a fair bit recently, they tend to have quite diversified comping and actively use classes like Breakers (which I've played in it) and Weavers, far more actively than most other typical squads on other servers. I've even played Ranger with those squads recently :# . While it may not necessarily be something that is completely opposite to pirateship tactics it is also far from just pirateship tactics. It facilitates alot of classes or roles. I'm not sure if that is the point you are trying to make or the opposite.

>

> >@Straegen said:

> > Scourge is still the most efficient ground AoE spam class in the game so not much changed. They went from dominant large scale OP to dominant large scale OP.

> That could be all good and well though. Something has to be the best at something and the role of Necromancers have always been to be the most efficient ranged ground target class or ranged ripping class. Like you say, dominant is not a problem, OP is a problem. Classes or their roles don't have to be dragged down into nothing to achieve a tolerable balance. They just have to make room for other classes to do other things.

>

> >@Redshark said:

> >Just nerf scrapper stealth, the stealth duration you can get from a moving smokefield is just too dang strong.

> What was said above goes for this comment too. It isn't the end of the world if the Scrapper still has something it does well. There is not a major disparity between stealth gyro and other higher order forms of stealthing now. All the roles of the class does not have to be sent over to another class in order to achieve balance. Arguably, the Engineer is already at risk of that having had several of its niches sent over to other classes (passive healing -> shoutbreaker; reveals -> revs/breakers etc.). If you start chipping away at the Scrapper even more Engineer will soon have little to nothing left that it does anywhere. The kind of problem that Rangers or Mesmers struggle with too given the collective amount of nerfs over the past few years.

>

> What they have done to the Druid or to the Chronomancer is not a good thing. While Scourges were understandably up in arms about nerfs to some of their key components I've also argued before that this change will not risk that for them (as per Straegen's comment above). Nore would I wish something like that upon Scrappers (or Engineers as a class that already have a very niched and narrow envelope in the game as a whole).

>

> >@Dan @Simo @Sov

> >Stuff about reveal nerf

> There are only really two ways that stuff will play out. Trends now suggests that people rather move that kind of duty back to Revs primarily. It has already transpired in both GvG and larger fights. There are more classes that can reveal now but the role seems primarily overtaken by Revs for the time being. The other is as suggested that some people may still use Scrappers to add to reveals because it is a fun and useful aspect of the class at both medium- and large scale. However, they are likely to do that at the expense of Bulwark rather than anything else. Few Scrappers have used Elixir S in recent years since downcleave changed GvG and the older role of the Scrapper to be not only a reveal specialist but also a stealth-save specialist. So some Scrappers may use double cleanse and opt for reveals, then, at the expense of damage mitigation and stability for everyone else. Either losing the role or providing less tank and stability to the group should generally be regarded as a notable loss for WvW and not at all as something positive for the mode or the other classes in it. Revenants already had enough stuff to do and losses of tank or stability will negatively affect TTK.

>

> At the end of the day, this change only turned back because ArenaNet are being ArenaNet. When the issue first came up when Pulse was moved back to a gyro, I remember taking to Reddit in order to plead a bit with the crowd there. Trying to plead to their sense of reason, noting how the loss of chemical field for sPvP or small scale WvW can't really compare to the loss of reveals for medium and large scale WvW. Was it a loss for them? Sure. Did they have much use for reveals? Perhaps not very much. However, the use they have out of the field is a laughable comparison to the use WvW has out of the pulse. However, some muppet drew a middle-school doodle about it and that is the feedback ArenaNet listens to over reason and logical argument. That is why balance is bad. It is what it is. I've assumed this change to come for a while now. I gave up on it early because people are stupid and I know ArenaNet by now.

 

ah the point i made highlighting bezainaz is - he's a good com and in pug fights - he's almost unbeatable - as per twitch. but if you notice in that twitch around 1 hour 19 minutes they decided to do an organized blob v blob. he had a hard time fighting the opposition because the other team was organized and kept doing counter bombs to his pressure strat. what i mean to say is - spaming ae's continuously is extremely hard to beat especially if the whole surface you step in is a danger zone. outside of that skrim in middle isle he did pretty well. it reminds me of an earlier situation back in my eu days fighting him and riverside. rock and a hard place man. pirate blob is extremely strong if you know what you're doing.

[subversiontwo.7501]

> @"Sovereign.1093" said:

> ah the point i made highlighting bezainaz is - he's a good com and in pug fights - he's almost unbeatable - as per twitch. but if you notice in that twitch around 1 hour 19 minutes they decided to do an organized blob v blob. he had a hard time fighting the opposition because the other team was organized and kept doing counter bombs to his pressure strat. what i mean to say is - spaming ae's continuously is extremely hard to beat especially if the whole surface you step in is a danger zone. outside of that skrim in middle isle he did pretty well. it reminds me of an earlier situation back in my eu days fighting him and riverside. rock and a hard place man. pirate blob is extremely strong if you know what you're doing.

It's a fair point I can agree with what you are pointing to.

At the same time, that rolls into everything else said here. That pirateship tactics exist is not an inherently bad thing, that only pirateship tactics existed or that the disparity between pirateship tactics and other options was a gaping gulf was a problem. It is fine if it remains strong as long as other approaches are somewhat viable and I think the path that Arenanet is on recently (if we ignore some snafus in details like Scrapper reveal) is mostly on point. It is like @God pointed out earlier, there are positive trends and they will keep impacting WvW so we will be able to follow these changes over time now too.

 

The trends I see does not suggest that people stack more Scourges or Revs recently or that Scourges or Revs are dying out either. I, like @God, am seeing more of a balanced meta appear, even if pirateship tactics are still strong. If that will persist is another question, it is not like the current balance is without concerns. However, it does look better for now. Given the small changes that Cal&Co have made while they work on _the big project_, they have been pretty effective overall in effort to impact. I am less concerned about balance now than a few months back, I am more concerned about Alliances and corporate.

 

I am not very impressed by the sagas so far and what they have achieved with them given how many teams work on that. What we are seeing within competetive mostly looks positive. What we are seeing for competetive is more of a concern. If that makes any sense.

 

 

[Hoxworth.7318]

Selling Kill composition post patch must have 49 people to fill all slots pm me, scourge dead GWEN Meta dead Delete your necros

[Simo.6819]

> @"Sovereign.1093" said:around 1 hour 19 minutes they decided to do an organized blob v blob. he had a hard time fighting the opposition because the other team was organized and kept doing counter bombs to his pressure strat

 

lol are you serious, it was guild raid vs full blob on a 1:2 ratio , what are you talking about buddy

 

You cant take that vod as example, the fight was heavy outnumbered, Shade was doing his job , the only difference is that Enemys had double the numbers and shade was looking less effective

 

[Sovereign.1093]

> @"Simo.6819" said:

> > @"Sovereign.1093" said:around 1 hour 19 minutes they decided to do an organized blob v blob. he had a hard time fighting the opposition because the other team was organized and kept doing counter bombs to his pressure strat

>

> lol are you serious, it was guild raid vs full blob on a 1:2 ratio , what are you talking about buddy

>

 

yes i'm serious.

[Simo.6819]

So you are arguing about a 30 people group not being able to have a clean fight against 60 ? Cringe

Desolation at the moment has the strongest blob in Europe , they got all the old Vabbi bandwagoners sitting on Blacktide wich are adding a lot of quality to the blob , so i dont know what you are trying to say , but please, feel free to explain.

[Sovereign.1093]

> @"Simo.6819" said:

> So you are arguing about a 30 people group not being able to have a clean fight against 60 ? Cringe

> Desolation at the moment has the strongest blob in Europe , they got all the old Vabbi bandwagoners sitting on Blacktide wich are adding a lot of quality to the blob , so i dont know what you are trying to say , but please, feel free to explain.

 

Are you telling me kill sucks?

[Simo.6819]

> @"Sovereign.1093" said:

 

> Are you telling me kill sucks?

 

I am telling you that there is a limit for everything , as Guild wars 2 is made of Targets , Mitigation , Boons and Conditions , and sometimes , just the *just dodge* or *movement* , isnt enough.

[Sovereign.1093]

> @"Simo.6819" said:

> > @"Sovereign.1093" said:

>

> > Are you telling me kill sucks?

>

> I am telling you that there is a limit for everything , as Guild wars 2 is made of Targets , Mitigation , Boons and Conditions , and sometimes , just the *just dodge* or *movement* , isnt enough.

 

thanks for highlighting my point. they can't do much because of the aes. but they did very well in those situation anyway

[Simo.6819]

> @"Sovereign.1093" said:

 

> thanks for highlighting my point. they can't do much because of the aes. but they did very well in those situation anyway

 

i dont think there was any issue with aoes , the biggest issue was Kill being too small and not having enough target cap or cooldown to pressure enemys , as you can see from the vod , unless full wipe , there was always a disengage and a kite of those aoes you mentioned previously , so id say , the situation as it is right now , its enjoyable , there isnt anymore ridicolous Shade bombs that kill 20 people at once , and mitigation is now a thing again, but as i also said before , there is a limit for that , as in everything , and not just in Guild Wars 2 ^^

 

Warrior bubble its now the most abused tool , but you cant nerf this without nerfing firebrand or scrappers O_)O , have fun balance team ^^

 

if what you called a bvb , was effectively an even or close number bvb , you would notice that the game is fairly fine with the shade nerf

[Sovereign.1093]

> @"Simo.6819" said:

> > @"Sovereign.1093" said:

>

> > thanks for highlighting my point. they can't do much because of the aes. but they did very well in those situation anyway

>

> i dont think there was any issue with aoes , the biggest issue was Kill being too small and not having enough target cap or cooldown to pressure enemys , as you can see from the vod , unless full wipe , there was always a disengage and a kite of those aoes you mentioned previously , so id say , the situation as it is right now , its enjoyable , there isnt anymore ridicolous Shade bombs that kill 20 people at once , and mitigation is now a thing again, but as i also said before , there is a limit for that , as in everything , and not just in Guild Wars 2 ^^

>

> Warrior bubble its now the most abused tool , but you cant nerf this without nerfing firebrand or scrappers O_)O , have fun balance team ^^

>

> if what you called a bvb , was effectively an even or close number bvb , you would notice that the game is fairly fine with the shade nerf

 

actually small or big your opponents there at middle isle spammed a lot of ae and your team couldn't really push in except kill their straglers. i made a small diagram earlier to highlight the points

[Simo.6819]

> @"Sovereign.1093" said:

 

> actually small or big your opponents there at middle isle spammed a lot of ae and your team couldn't really push in except kill their straglers. i made a small diagram earlier to highlight the points

 

thats called a spike , and you can either kite it , sit in it and die , or dodge trough it , thats how WvW work son, as i said , noone of that vod clips has to be considered for rebalance argument , as the fight was 1:2 ratio , all the info or example taken from that vod are irrilevant for a proper rebalance or argumentation.

 

 

[Sovereign.1093]

> @"Simo.6819" said:

> > @"Sovereign.1093" said:

>

> > actually small or big your opponents there at middle isle spammed a lot of ae and your team couldn't really push in except kill their straglers. i made a small diagram earlier to highlight the points

>

> thats called a spike , and you can either kite it , sit in it and die , or dodge trough it , thats how WvW work son, as i said , noone of that vod clips has to be considered for rebalance argument , as the fight was 1:2 ratio , all the info or example taken from that vod are irrilevant for a proper rebalance or argumentation.

>

>

 

highlighting my point again. their ae is very good and kept your team off. not saying rebalance, simply talking about pirate chips

[misterman.1530]

> @"DeadlySynz.3471" said:

> I saw a lot less scourges in WvW tonight than usual. If this continues over the next few days, I believe that speaks volumes about how the players as a whole feel about the changes.

 

Yup. Playing my SB and learning my Firebrand. Might try out my scrapper for the first time in ages. My main's always been a Necro - not so much now.

[ArchonWing.9480]

> @"Turkeyspit.3965" said:

> While factually correct, that wasn't my issue at all. As soon as they changed the mechanic where your F2-F5 would only manifest on your shade, or only on yourself without a shade, it effectively killed Heal Scourge in Fractals unless all 5 players are stacked on the mobs (GL with that in your typical LFG), at least for me.

 

Well, if your players are all over the place, it's time to find a new group instead of feeding a bunch of leechers (Any game mode really) =p

 

Also blood zerker reaper > scourge in fractals all day. Same carry potential, much more damage.

[Kitta.3657]

> @"Sovereign.1093" said:

> highlighting my point again. their ae is very good and kept your team off. not saying rebalance, simply talking about pirate chips

 

is your O key broken on your keyboard?

[Sovereign.1093]

> @"Kitta.3657" said:

> > @"Sovereign.1093" said:

> > highlighting my point again. their ae is very good and kept your team off. not saying rebalance, simply talking about pirate chips

>

> is your O key broken on your keyboard?

 

keyboard? make sense please :3

[Kitta.3657]

> @"Sovereign.1093" said:

> > @"Kitta.3657" said:

> > > @"Sovereign.1093" said:

> > > highlighting my point again. their ae is very good and kept your team off. not saying rebalance, simply talking about pirate chips

> >

> > is your O key broken on your keyboard?

>

> keyboard? make sense please :3

 

It's AoE or aoe or AOE or Area of Effect or area of effect or if you're feeling wild AREA OF EFFECT.

 

Ae in every of your posts...

:3

[Sovereign.1093]

> @"Kitta.3657" said:

> > @"Sovereign.1093" said:

> > > @"Kitta.3657" said:

> > > > @"Sovereign.1093" said:

> > > > highlighting my point again. their ae is very good and kept your team off. not saying rebalance, simply talking about pirate chips

> > >

> > > is your O key broken on your keyboard?

> >

> > keyboard? make sense please :3

>

> It's AoE or aoe or AOE or Area of Effect or area of effect or if you're feeling wild AREA OF EFFECT.

>

> Ae in every of your posts...

> :3

 

Ah, :) got used to the term they used in na - ae for area effect

[Kitta.3657]

I am on NA and have never seen anyone mention it as ae.

¯\\_(ツ)_/¯

[kamikharzeeh.8016]

> @"anonymous.7812" said:

> There's more Reapers and Spellbreakers. With engie reveal also mostly killed, seems like stealth melee super bombs are still the norm, and TTK is near 0. PoF meta is still stale garbage.

 

lmfao a bit rough but yeah. this changed not much. if they bring enough scrouges, even the target lmit cap does not matter thaha. spellbreakers have always been en masse though. just too good for bunkering and burstdmg and condiclean and cripple.

 

removing the stealthreaveal of scrapper was really bad though. there was no need at all for this! stealth overall is one of the most unbalanced stuff in this game, there should have been MORE reveal added by far, not less.

 

by the way, i'm on Desolation too. we rarely lose equally numbered fights, but we rarely have equal numbers compared to all the big blobbers out there too.

plus we only have very few commanders, bunch of the comms are rather newly trying to tag up. so yes, when we have a blob it is usually pretty strong, but i have had several situations with us defending 1:4 outnumbered against other zergs or even blobs. and we won some of those still :P deso is really great at clouding, not at blobfights. after a while we outnumber them bc so many die yes ;P (sry thats a serverpride thing, not trying to offend our matchup foes. i know you all have the same feels for us... even if the rewards don't speak for it, Wvw was designed to be competitive)

 

i've been on deso since i started the game btw, so no bandwagoner here. love my server, but we mainly have some veterans that carry the whole thing, numbers aren't our big strength. also the pessimistic talking of players sometimes can really be annoying. i saw that on several NA servers too tho that i watched.

 

that's why i think, maybe triple links may be more fun? link two servers that are smaller on one bigger, because i feel the current numbers are not enough after all. plus WSR (or was it Shiverpeaks?) has adopoted some americans guild that spooks around at nighttime with zergs.

[Sovereign.1093]

> @"Kitta.3657" said:

> I am on NA and have never seen anyone mention it as ae.

> ¯\\_(ツ)_/¯

 

¯\\_(ツ)_/¯ meh. :) well now you see one person doing it.