Staff as a DPS weapon

[Vardogr.9371]

Also two people are really hung up on my thoughts on Druid. This is not a me thing.

[Vardogr.9371]

You do realize a subjective opinion is inherently unfounded right? It is never based in fact. I even gave you many examples of that.

[Cyninja.2954]

> @"Vardogr.9371" said:

> You do realize a subjective opinion is inherently unfounded right? It is never based in fact. I even gave you many examples of that.

 

https://writingcenter.unc.edu/tips-and-tools/fallacies/

 

Pay attention to:

4. not making claims that are so strong or sweeping that you can’t really support them.

 

As such, your choice of druid and how you portrayed it was a massive fail. Which is the center of this off-topic discourse, which could have been avoided if you had not provided useless (to your main argument at hand) opinions in the first place.

 

Here is what I personally believe:

I think you have a vision you want druid to be. I think going hand in hand with that desire, it was prudent to claim that you do not believe druid to have been designed as a support originally. You decided to fluff this thread up with your opinion, in no way providing any evidence as to how you arrived at this opinion. This has by now distracted from the central point of this thread severely. Does that come close?

[Vardogr.9371]

Thanks teacher. Take the L and move on. This isn't a paper that I am writing, it was a discussion. In discussions you can make speculative statements such as I think cars that are blue are awesome or that I think it is nicer when it rains or that Druid from my point of view looked as though it could have had a different intention at some point in time. A claim in which is not substantive to any sort of point I have been trying to make when it comes to what I also subjectively think a staff wielding DPS caster could be. You have massively failed to actually substantiate an actual argument as there isn't one that exists with what you keep reiterating. In your world I am using Druid as some sort of stick to hit everyone with and tell them that druid was never supposed to be a support class and it is the only example that exists to prove out what I think a staff dps should be.

[Vardogr.9371]

Also your belief is wrong. So goddamn wrong it hurts to read it. It is amazing that I can say something simple as "It seems to me that druid seemed like it may have been different at some point in time" gets transformed into someone else's mind as a thought provoking factual stance and some hill I apparently built in this thread to die on. The only hill I will die on in this thread is you are wrong about my perception of druid and how I view the class today. Once again your tenuous grasp on nuance and context leads you to have this false idea that I want druid to be something different than it is or that I am stating as fact Druid was to be different. When if you go back and read the time I mentioned Druid skills or animations they were in relation to what I thought IN MY OPINION a caster dps should look similar to. But I apparently cannot lead this horse to the water so how am I expected it will drink if it could get to the water on it's own.

[kharmin.7683]

> @"Vardogr.9371" said:

> It is amazing that I can say something simple as "It seems to me that druid seemed like it may have been different at some point in time" gets transformed into someone else's mind as a thought provoking factual stance and some hill I apparently built in this thread to die on.

Not trying to get in the middle here, but what I don't understand is what you are basing this opinion on? Druid seemed like it may have been different at some point in time? What makes you think that? Because (I think) others in this thread don't agree with this premise which might be why the topic has become skewed from its original intent.

 

[Vardogr.9371]

Thank you for the question and I made that assumption on different skills and how the animation for those skills presents. All the of the skills that slam light down from the sky do not strike me as healing but seem more aligned with wanting to do damage.

I explained this earlier:

> @"Vardogr.9371" said:

> Hitting people with astral energy to heal them in the fashion of Cosmic Ray or Lunar Impact with aggressive beams of light made me say hmm that just doesn't seem right or that doesn't strike me as intentionally being a support type skill.

 

I came to my completely subjective opinion on the subject in part from whats portrayed in that quote. I also mention throwing out vines in the fashion druid does seemed more inclined to have a possibly different iteration at some point in time. These opinions have been taken as if I am making some sort factual statement that I haven't made. The things I have said about druid were just my perception of the class and wondered if it changed before it was released.

 

[kharmin.7683]

Well, for my two coppers worth, here's how I see things with regards to the druid class. It was released with HoT which also introduced raids and the need for a more cohesive group construct. Druid was designed for this type of group content as more of a support role than a DPS role whereas other HoT elites were designed with more targeted group functions (scourge, tempest, scrapper and chronomancer for example). Many of the skills and abilities from the HoT elites worked in concert with each other: some classes being more focused on offense with the support (buffs/healing/strips) from the other classes.

 

In my opinion, this was the druid's design from inception as can be seen from the skills, utilities and celestial avatar abilities. Changing the inherent feel of the class now would go against its original support design.

[Vardogr.9371]

Look I agree with you up until you say changing it now would go against it's design. I have tried to beat that into people's heads repeatedly that I don't want the current iteration of druid to not be anything other than it is now. I do wish it was more effective support wise in WvW but that is a story for another day. You have stated that you believe that the concept of Druid from soup to nuts has always been support and that assertion is merely subjective and that is okay and I do not disagree with your opinions validity. You can't know what they were thinking at the inspiration stage, then the brainstorming stage and the rest of development until what information you were given at release not can I for that matter. Which is the crux of my rebuttal to the other poster. You feel those abilities portray visually a support roll and I do not. This is okay by me and I appreciate it entirely as both of our opinions are subjective. Unless a Dev swoops into this post to correct all of us it is just speculation and always will be.

 

I will instead use greatsword Mesmer skills a visual and somewhat physical representation of what I mean when I envision a staff wielding caster DPS. Almost all of its skills are of a ranged nature and if you removed the sword and inserted a staff in place of it, it wouldn't be to out of place to see those skills coming from a staff instead. https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Spatial_Surge is the quintessential example of why I am confused there aren't more caster types with staves in this game that aren't support. Mind Stab could easily be a column of Mesmer energy or even swords floating or spikes forming around a foes head and jabbing into their mind. There is no reason skills like that couldn't be on a staff other than possibly sticking to a theme, I am not really certain what purpose a greatsword serves as a ranged weapon than having it be something different than the norm I suppose or that staves are support weapons only and they chose to use the sword as the other ranged damage choice. I will probably never know.

 

Now with the way people seem to read in this thread I will reiterate I don't want Mesmer to change at all. If there were to be new specs or something added that could make the thematic use of staves more DPS than support then I am completely for it and encourage it. Which was the whole point of this thread.

[kharmin.7683]

I feel those abilities portray the support role thematically, not visually. Agreed, no one here can know the originating concept of the druid; however, I still believe that it was released as intended by the necessity of its function for raiding and HoT content (pre-nerf). These were the first elite builds that GW2 introduced and they pretty much compliment each other. I imagine that ANet was expecting most players to migrate to the new builds especially seeing how they work together to complete the content and/or raids. Again, my opinion, but to me it feels more accurate in saying this because of how the content and builds were released.

 

As for your mesmer example, are you advocating for a weapon skin change?

 

Perhaps the reason that there aren't more caster types with staves filling a more concrete DPS role is by design? I mean, otherwise ANet would have to create all weapons for all classes? Maybe in the name of balance (yeah, I know!) this was the route that they had chosen to take?

 

I'm not trying to argue against you for the sake of arguing. I'm looking more to expand the conversation. I disagree with the premise of your suggestion -- I like the more defined functions of the classes -- but I am not looking to dissuade you.

[kharmin.7683]

From the [wiki on Druids](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Druid):

"Rangers entering the ancient Maguuma Jungle may attune to the long-dormant forces of Tyria to become druids capable of channeling the might of the heavens, mending allies and daunting enemies. By gaining access to the staff weapon and glyphs, these masters of support bolster their allies with mystical insight into the natural world. Their new profession mechanic allows them to accumulate astral force to become a celestial avatar, a paragon of reactive recovery and strong sustainability in a dangerous world. "

 

-- masters of support

-- paragon of reactive recovery

-- mending allies and daunting enemies

 

Here is the official class announcement back in 2015: [https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/meet-the-druid-rangers-elite-specialization/](https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/meet-the-druid-rangers-elite-specialization/) To me, it does seem that the idea was for a support role for this class.

[kharmin.7683]

Also from the various professions in the wiki:

 

Necromancer

Necromancers draw on life force and use it to strengthen or heal themselves and others.

 

Scourge

focuses on punishment skills, boon corruption, bestowing might and barriers to allies

 

Tempest

a supportive elite specialization

 

These all use staves and, with the exception of core elementalist and daredevil, appear to be ensconced within a support function. To me, it seems that a staff wielding character is not intended to be heavy on DPS (again, excepting core elementalist and daredevil).

 

So, if you are advocating for a staff-wielder to have less of a support role, then how would you balance it against the rest of the professions?

 

[Vardogr.9371]

First, thank you for trying to expand the dialogue it is truly appreciated. I need to you look past the announcement in 2015 and anything subsequent and understand my whole thought process stems from before that in regards to my opinions of druid design. That is what I meant and will always mean. I will never argue what was portrayed to us, was ever intended to be different.

 

I am not advocating for a skin change either. The whole exercise of pointing out how a staff could completely replace the greatsword, was to further the idea that in the future more DPS oriented uses of the staff could be implemented. I also mentioned I don't want Mesmer to change either. Do not get hung up on a specific profession. Instead think abstractly how a staff could fit in future application a DPS role instead of a support one when it comes to magic caster types. The end of my last post puts how I feel about the possibility of future applications succinctly.

 

> @"Vardogr.9371" said:

> If there were to be new specs or something added that could make the thematic use of staves more DPS than support then I am completely for it and encourage it. Which was the whole point of this thread.

 

You are disagreeing with a premise I have never even made in this thread. Any mention of druid seems to be a stick in the craw. I have consistently stated I do not want anything to change in its current form. I do not want supports to become DPS nor vice versa. I am not certain how much more I can try to explain that. I am truly not trying to be mean to you. I substituted Mesmer to make the point clearer and that was missed. The meat of what I was saying is why can there not be future possible implementations similar to how I explained Mesmer and the greatsword. My grasp of English is firm and I know I am explaining this at a level most people should be able to reasonably understand.

 

 

[Vardogr.9371]

Also adding the ability to be a DPS caster that uses staves along side what exists right now does not muddy the waters when it comes to how classes are defined. A druid still will be support and Daredevil will still be melee DPS. Those nuances would be hammered out by ANet. I am advocating for a shake up of the status quo in future applications.

[kharmin.7683]

So.... either a new elite or new profession, then?

[MachineManXX.9746]

> @"Vardogr.9371" said:

> First, thank you for trying to expand the dialogue it is truly appreciated. I need to you look past the announcement in 2015 and anything subsequent and understand my whole thought process stems from before that in regards to my opinions of druid design. That is what I meant and will always mean. I will never argue what was portrayed to us, was ever intended to be different.

>

> I am not advocating for a skin change either. The whole exercise of pointing out how a staff could completely replace the greatsword, was to further the idea that in the future more DPS oriented uses of the staff could be implemented. I also mentioned I don't want Mesmer to change either. Do not get hung up on a specific profession. Instead think abstractly how a staff could fit in future application a DPS role instead of a support one when it comes to magic caster types. The end of my last post puts how I feel about the possibility of future applications succinctly.

>

> > @"Vardogr.9371" said:

> > If there were to be new specs or something added that could make the thematic use of staves more DPS than support then I am completely for it and encourage it. Which was the whole point of this thread.

>

> You are disagreeing with a premise I have never even made in this thread. Any mention of druid seems to be a stick in the craw. I have consistently stated I do not want anything to change in its current form. I do not want supports to become DPS nor vice versa. I am not certain how much more I can try to explain that. I am truly not trying to be mean to you. I substituted Mesmer to make the point clearer and that was missed. The meat of what I was saying is why can there not be future possible implementations similar to how I explained Mesmer and the greatsword. My grasp of English is firm and I know I am explaining this at a level most people should be able to reasonably understand.

>

>

 

What makes you think there can not be future implementations of staff as a dps weapon?

[Vardogr.9371]

Are you asking me that question? I do not think there couldn't be future implementations of staff as a DPS weapon. If I had to hazard a guess though, judging by how many professions use staff as a main weapon for DPS, I would say the chances are quite slim. I think the entire point of my original post was to spark the idea of more options.

 

There seems to be a general thought that staff is mostly a support weapon and should stay as a support weapon and I understand that. There aren't too many iterations of support weapons to go around in the first place. So as I see it, staves got the short straw and remain a support weapon with a few minor exceptions. I also think making any future implementations DPS oriented would make a certain set of player apprehensive.

[LucianDK.8615]

Staff is even more maligned for necros, only used for tagging in metas.

 

 

[Gryphon.2875]

> @"LucianDK.8615" said:

> Staff is even more maligned for necros, only used for tagging in metas.

>

>

Which irks me, because I main Necro and love the look of staves, especially The Crossing, but alas, I must use scepter instead.