Top-end damage from Deadeye's

[Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582]

> @Maugetarr.6823 said:

> I think the damage within this skill is calculated as 1.65×(1+0.15×malice stacks) since the damage boost is from a single part of this ability. So basically without maleficent seven, this gives a multiplier of 1.65×(1+0.15×5)=~2.89 and with maleficent seven, 1.65(1+0.15×7)=~3.38. This puts it just over stage 2 and stage 3 kill shots respectively, without the piercing ability which I would say is balanced. The high numbers you're seeing are likely a combination of several other things such as damage multipliers, might stacks, and buffing traits. Assuming they're built for damage using Deadly arts, trickery, and deadeye, they could have revealed training (+200 power), 11-25 might stacks between perfectionist, bountiful theft, and 3 Round Burst (maybe used on someone else if there were teammates fighting there too, so anywhere between +330 and 750 power). Exposed weakness for +10%, executioner for +20%, malice for +18-21%, sigil of exploitation and opportunity for +5% each.

>

> My best guess is this based on the rest of your damage log:

>

> You got hit by cursed bullet, Spotters shot, and mind wrack which brought you under 50% health. Sigil of exploitation and executioner kicked in and Spotters Shot made opportunity kick in. They had revealed training giving them about 9% more damage on a 2225 power build (mauraders amulet and strength runes would put a thief here). Also lead attacks could have boosted the damage by 3% from the initiative spent on Spotters Shot.

>

> So with the kneeling bonus, you got hit for 3.3k by cursed bullet, effectively a 0.84 multiplier. At a 3.38 multiplier, DJ is just over 4 times that. With how damage modifiers are multiplicative in this game, you essentially got 3315×4.024×1.09×1.2×1.05×1.05×1.03=19812 damage. That's about an 8% difference between what you got and what I calculated, but there could be some vulnerability or might I'm not talking into account or weapon damage fluctuations (rng).

>

> Anyway, this was a long winded way of saying that at a 3.38 multiplier for a single target, I think this skill is actually pretty well balanced against kill shot which is a 3.25 multiplier that pierces. You just got unlucky with the damage modifiers.

 

Like you said, damage modifiers are multiplicative and I think the malice stacks are too, I've seen a 38k DJ on the golem in PvP lobby and a 29k on 2300 armor (Choppy linked a pic in one of the other DJ threads) in WvW and that was the opening hit, no below 20% health or No Quarter bonuses etc.

[LughLongArm.5460]

> @Vertep.2498 said:

> > @LughLongArm.5460 said:

> > There is no L2P issue here, the dead eye skill(death's judgment) that can deal 20+k dmg(and basically one shot you) from stealth, from any position in a 1500 range at any time, Is just a textbook on how NOT to develop a skill. I think they let thieves keep it for now, because without it, deadeye is under performing. I'm sure it will get nerfred some time in the future.

>

> as many people wrote it not only once..this to wrk for deadeye he must be in advance in better group to cover him.

> trust me..I have seen not only once the4se situations and I myself tried it..if enemies team is just a bit better there is no place to deadeye to charge his malice to get 20k+ hits from stealth, if rifle deadeye is in worse group its just to easy to catch him before he will charge malice atleast in half, this deadeye will be unable to use DJ, instead will be able to spam just TRB which dont neeed that much malice and can be just compared to unlad spam but it cant be spammed that often because of higer initiative cost

 

I agree, that's why I said it's a bad design, sometimes it will be close to useless, other times OP in the most frustrating way possible to the opponent and always with 0 skill involved(no risk reward play by the thief, nothing to learn from death if you are the opponent) . I think Deadeye needs more consistency and utility and less damage potential and stealth.

[Mikeskies.1536]

Well, I think the main issue is that Death's Judgment gets increased damage from the number of Malice stacks, but there is no condition that the target needs to be Marked. I don't mind getting hit by a 12-20k attack if I'm marked, but getting hit by that amount from stealth without being Marked needs to be addressed. They can keep the mechanic, but perhaps cut the base damage bonus by half, and put a condition that the target must be marked for the other half.

[Maugetarr.6823]

> @"Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582" said:

> > @Maugetarr.6823 said:

> > I think the damage within this skill is calculated as 1.65×(1+0.15×malice stacks) since the damage boost is from a single part of this ability. So basically without maleficent seven, this gives a multiplier of 1.65×(1+0.15×5)=~2.89 and with maleficent seven, 1.65(1+0.15×7)=~3.38. This puts it just over stage 2 and stage 3 kill shots respectively, without the piercing ability which I would say is balanced. The high numbers you're seeing are likely a combination of several other things such as damage multipliers, might stacks, and buffing traits. Assuming they're built for damage using Deadly arts, trickery, and deadeye, they could have revealed training (+200 power), 11-25 might stacks between perfectionist, bountiful theft, and 3 Round Burst (maybe used on someone else if there were teammates fighting there too, so anywhere between +330 and 750 power). Exposed weakness for +10%, executioner for +20%, malice for +18-21%, sigil of exploitation and opportunity for +5% each.

> >

> > My best guess is this based on the rest of your damage log:

> >

> > You got hit by cursed bullet, Spotters shot, and mind wrack which brought you under 50% health. Sigil of exploitation and executioner kicked in and Spotters Shot made opportunity kick in. They had revealed training giving them about 9% more damage on a 2225 power build (mauraders amulet and strength runes would put a thief here). Also lead attacks could have boosted the damage by 3% from the initiative spent on Spotters Shot.

> >

> > So with the kneeling bonus, you got hit for 3.3k by cursed bullet, effectively a 0.84 multiplier. At a 3.38 multiplier, DJ is just over 4 times that. With how damage modifiers are multiplicative in this game, you essentially got 3315×4.024×1.09×1.2×1.05×1.05×1.03=19812 damage. That's about an 8% difference between what you got and what I calculated, but there could be some vulnerability or might I'm not talking into account or weapon damage fluctuations (rng).

> >

> > Anyway, this was a long winded way of saying that at a 3.38 multiplier for a single target, I think this skill is actually pretty well balanced against kill shot which is a 3.25 multiplier that pierces. You just got unlucky with the damage modifiers.

>

> Like you said, damage modifiers are multiplicative and I think the malice stacks are too, I've seen a 38k DJ on the golem in PvP lobby and a 29k on 2300 armor (Choppy linked a pic in one of the other DJ threads) in WvW and that was the opening hit, no below 20% health or No Quarter bonuses etc.

 

If the malice bonus is multiplicative internally making the skill 1.65×(1.15)^(malice stacks) = 1.65×2.66= 4.39, it absolutely should be re-coded to the other version. I don't think it is though from personal testing. WvW would be possible to hit that number pretty easily due to foods, gear, and other bonuses and using assassins signet (active) for the bonus power as @"Wargameur.6950" mentioned. I don't doubt you've seen that at all, but at that number, Rifle autos hit for 8k+ (again, known from personal testing) and that skill only has a 0.8 multiplier. It's pretty easy to to push skills in general up to that high of a number in PvE gear, but that's how damage is coded, not the skill itself.

[Razor.6392]

Lol these people defending 1 shot kills.

 

Buddy, even if it took 2000 hours setup, a 1 shot ability is NOT OK in a game that is supposed to be competitive and balanced.

[Vertep.2498]

> @Razor.6392 said:

> Lol these people defending 1 shot kills.

>

> Buddy, even if it took 2000 hours setup, a 1 shot ability is NOT OK in a game that is supposed to be competitive and balanced.

 

yes but tell it to Anet who designed this deadeye rifle and insta applying stack of condis on scourge and condis on othe r classes which have much higher burst than any other power class, its going to same result, nothing good

[Maugetarr.6823]

> @Razor.6392 said:

> Lol these people defending 1 shot kills.

>

> Buddy, even if it took 2000 hours setup, a 1 shot ability is NOT OK in a game that is supposed to be competitive and balanced.

 

A 3.38 multiplier is balanced though. I guess you could argue that the cast time could be increased to 1.25 an the skill could be changed to a 3.25 total coefficient on 7 malice stacks, and be allowed to pierce, but honestly it would get the same complaints that it is right now even though it would be a literal copy of kill shot because this 21500 damage hit would turn into a 20600 damage hit. It's not the skill coefficient, it's how bonus damage compounds in the game. We could put this skill at about a 1.6 multiplier and it still would have hit 10k with this setup. For reference 1.6 is the coefficient for the very last hit in the warrior Axe's triple chop.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

If you get marked, be prepared to dodge.

 

You win.

[Mikeskies.1536]

> @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> If you get marked, be prepared to dodge.

>

> You win.

 

I think the problem is the Deadeye's are marking ambient creatures/objects for Malice, then unloading Death's Judgements on unsuspecting players. Unmarked Death's Judgement crits for 12k with full Malice stacks on 2700 amor.

 

Mark should really expire if the Marked target is greater than, let's say, 3000 units away.

 

 

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

> @Mikeskies.1536 said:

> > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > If you get marked, be prepared to dodge.

> >

> > You win.

>

> I think the problem is the Deadeye's are marking ambient creatures/objects for Malice, then unloading Death's Judgements on unsuspecting players. Unmarked Death's Judgement crits for 12k with full Malice stacks on 2700 amor.

>

> Mark should really expire if the Marked target is greater than, let's say, 3000 units away.

>

>

 

You probably shouldnt be able to mark ambients period. The whole point of the mark is to let people know they need to get ready to dodge.

[Maugetarr.6823]

> @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > @Mikeskies.1536 said:

> > > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > > If you get marked, be prepared to dodge.

> > >

> > > You win.

> >

> > I think the problem is the Deadeye's are marking ambient creatures/objects for Malice, then unloading Death's Judgements on unsuspecting players. Unmarked Death's Judgement crits for 12k with full Malice stacks on 2700 amor.

> >

> > Mark should really expire if the Marked target is greater than, let's say, 3000 units away.

> >

> >

>

> You probably shouldnt be able to mark ambients period. The whole point of the mark is to let people know they need to get ready to dodge.

 

They probably should have implemented it a bit more like adrenaline, with a buildup in combat while attacking and a decay when you're OOC. Break up the damage buff in it to like 2% extra damage per tick of malice and 10% extra damage to your marked target.

 

Edit: One successful attack would generate 1 malice tick (icd 2 seconds) and not attacking wouldn't generate any malice. You wouldn't lose your malice ticks when your target dies though, it would just decay quickly as soon as you're OOC (maybe 1 tick a second or so).

[ich.7086]

> @Mikeskies.1536 said:

> > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > If you get marked, be prepared to dodge.

> >

> > You win.

>

> I think the problem is the Deadeye's are marking ambient creatures/objects for Malice, then unloading Death's Judgements on unsuspecting players. Unmarked Death's Judgement crits for 12k with full Malice stacks on 2700 amor.

>

> Mark should really expire if the Marked target is greater than, let's say, 3000 units away.

It's pvp subforum here. Ambiant tagging is no concern here.

 

The point of DJ is that you aren't supposed to take the hit period. The actual damage number is having you wait until full malice, Anet could have written "Your target die if you have full malice". The whole point of Rifle is to cast DJ since TRB was nerfed hard.

 

It's like the axe warrior back in the days where you watched for eviscerate (3.0 remember) because it could nearly OHKO you if you were glassy/not full : you save a cooldown or a dodge, prevent the damage with that, go on surviving the bazillions AoE/instant proc damages which are _fine_.

[Mammoth.1975]

I'm glad that it's 2017 and people are still using the "everything is fine because dodge" line :D

[amiia.8139]

@Geikamir.6329

Firstly I thought it is abit high but then I cosidered objectives on SPvP or WvW. You really need to sacrifice much that is taking away Your effectivenes from those objectives. Sure one shots aren't great but they aren't bad either. Killshot warrior is possible to score same "OHKO" (one sidenote: Warrior Kill shot pierce). Never had problem against big hits of deadeyes. Because this whole concept for me is situational. If enemies are not clever it will work devastating perfectly. But if they are thinking around they will just not dance in front of line of sight too much without baiting out and chasing that kneeling free frag. It is still just one trick pony tactic, am I right?