BlaqueFyre.5678 Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 > @Rennie.6750 said: > > @Kiamu.8295 said: > > > @Deihnyx.6318 said: > > > > @Kheldorn.5123 said: > > > > I would like to remind everyone that User Agreement and every other GW2 document we agree on are only applicable for Game itself and ArenaNet. This is absolutely impossible for the company to demand from the user to automatically accept that they are going to broadcast our data to 3rd party tool and take no responsibility for the outcome of such action. > > > > > > > > As it was brought up before, ArenaNet is not the owner of the behavioral data we are providing - which means they are administrating how we play, but we, players, are owners of how we play the game. We should be asked, with no assumption of "automatic consent" invention that is being pushed here, to share our data - in this case in form of DPS meter. And this is what this thread is about. This tool is provided by 3rd party developer that we never agreed to be part of our agreement with ArenaNet. > > > > > > > > As mentioned before, dps number and other combat related data can be considered our behavioral data which means is under privacy protection. ArenaNet can't just claim they own this data and whatever they want with this without our consent. They own the service and its assets, they don't own how we play. > > > > > > > > This is what I'm bringing up since the beginning of this thread. If they want to allow DPS meter tool that allows to monitor our game behaviour, this tool should come with an option to consent to share data to the tool itself and other players. Currently, even if I'm not using this tool, ArenaNet without my consent or even knowledge demands me to assume people are doing this by default. > > > > > > > > This is why I am asking to review the policy and change it to honor players' privacy, security and ownership of our behavioral data. > > > > > > > > **Reminder: this discussion is not about removing DPS meter tools. It's about the policy and implementation of the tool. Please DO NOT make this thread into fight between players. Discuss the subject.** > > > > > > > @Kiamu.8295 said: > > > > DPS meters are the downfall of every mmorpg. Dps meters cause a hostile enviorment, it's a cancer I wish these Devs would plain out stick to "NO" instead of giving in, The Raid King of MMO's ... WOW it caused a cancer of asshats that caused a hostile enviorment and toxic community. I won't pay for a game with people counting on those meters more than enjoying a game...... it's a game to have fun not to have another part time job. > > > > > > > > Thanks > > > > > > > > > > Since most people are american here. Please make the analogy with gun laws. > > > > > > People are toxic, not the tools. There wasnt dps meters at the beginning of gw2, of raids. That didnt stop toxism and elitism. > > > > People are Toxic because of the tools that give them the right to be, Take the tools away and they can't be Toxic about that one tool now can they? > > They wanted a gun analogy so let's give them one: give a weapon to a mad man and he'll kill you. If weapons didn't exist then he might be annoying in different ways but you'd still be alive. There are ways to increase toxicity in games. Whether dps meters are a major contributing factor is still unknown but if you play with pugs it sure feels like giving a gun to a psycho and telling him to "have fun" since it's used for drama, kickfests and whinning. Note that I haven't been excluded before for low dps, it's just the overall drama and whiny atmosphere that pisses me off. Remove the tool they use to moan and they will keep the moaning to themselves. Horrible analogy people will kill with out guns, anything can be used in that manner, History shows us this. History also shows us before Combat Meters ever existed in GW2 that those same toxic players were just as toxic using other means to kick/belittle people, the Meter doesn’t change this behavior and it actually promotes accurate data which improves the health of the game over all otherwise it will all be based on feeling and arbitrary things that people are being griefed about, it’s a simple concept really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voreo Sabrae.5416 Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017  Completely relevant. :p Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Belorn.2659 Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 > @Rennie.6750 said: > They wanted a gun analogy so let's give them one: give a weapon to a mad man and he'll kill you. If weapons didn't exist then he might be annoying in different ways but you'd still be alive. There are ways to increase toxicity in games. Whether dps meters are a major contributing factor is still unknown but if you play with pugs it sure feels like giving a gun to a psycho and telling him to "have fun" since it's used for drama, kickfests and whinning. Note that I haven't been excluded before for low dps, it's just the overall drama and whiny atmosphere that pisses me off. Remove the tool they use to moan and they will keep the moaning to themselves. The last gun was AP number and the class icon. Worse those where (to use the gun analogy) automatics with hallow points. DPS meters removed all those and replaced it with precision strikes (still using the gun analogy). Before DPS meters we also had pug guilds, which implemented their own restrictions. A famous test was to solo lupi. Not sure where on the gun analogy scale that would be, but I for one welcome our new pug requirements that also don't take a guild slot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiamu.8295 Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 > @Deihnyx.6318 said: > > @Kiamu.8295 said: > > > @Deihnyx.6318 said: > > > > @Kiamu.8295 said: > > > > Anet says : Our general policy is that anything that gives advantage is forbidden; anything that imbalances the game in favor of one player over another is strictly disallowed. > > > > Vauge but if a player gets kicked for low dps because of others using a dps meter to find out that player was low on dps than the above statement means that dps meters are or should be disallowed making the meter have a clear advantage for others and not for the poor soul who got kicked > > > > > > Dps meters give you an advantage about how you play? > > > Okay... > > > > you clearly did not read that correctly > > You could just say we have a different interpretation of the policy. I don't happen to agree with yours. > > Whatever. This is just one more of these arguments that are gonna make people even more suspicious as to why one would want to hide their poor performance when joining hard content. BTW my performance was not bad ... I was the tank Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deihnyx.6318 Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 > @Rennie.6750 said: > > @Kiamu.8295 said: > > > @Deihnyx.6318 said: > > > > @Kheldorn.5123 said: > > > > I would like to remind everyone that User Agreement and every other GW2 document we agree on are only applicable for Game itself and ArenaNet. This is absolutely impossible for the company to demand from the user to automatically accept that they are going to broadcast our data to 3rd party tool and take no responsibility for the outcome of such action. > > > > > > > > As it was brought up before, ArenaNet is not the owner of the behavioral data we are providing - which means they are administrating how we play, but we, players, are owners of how we play the game. We should be asked, with no assumption of "automatic consent" invention that is being pushed here, to share our data - in this case in form of DPS meter. And this is what this thread is about. This tool is provided by 3rd party developer that we never agreed to be part of our agreement with ArenaNet. > > > > > > > > As mentioned before, dps number and other combat related data can be considered our behavioral data which means is under privacy protection. ArenaNet can't just claim they own this data and whatever they want with this without our consent. They own the service and its assets, they don't own how we play. > > > > > > > > This is what I'm bringing up since the beginning of this thread. If they want to allow DPS meter tool that allows to monitor our game behaviour, this tool should come with an option to consent to share data to the tool itself and other players. Currently, even if I'm not using this tool, ArenaNet without my consent or even knowledge demands me to assume people are doing this by default. > > > > > > > > This is why I am asking to review the policy and change it to honor players' privacy, security and ownership of our behavioral data. > > > > > > > > **Reminder: this discussion is not about removing DPS meter tools. It's about the policy and implementation of the tool. Please DO NOT make this thread into fight between players. Discuss the subject.** > > > > > > > @Kiamu.8295 said: > > > > DPS meters are the downfall of every mmorpg. Dps meters cause a hostile enviorment, it's a cancer I wish these Devs would plain out stick to "NO" instead of giving in, The Raid King of MMO's ... WOW it caused a cancer of asshats that caused a hostile enviorment and toxic community. I won't pay for a game with people counting on those meters more than enjoying a game...... it's a game to have fun not to have another part time job. > > > > > > > > Thanks > > > > > > > > > > Since most people are american here. Please make the analogy with gun laws. > > > > > > People are toxic, not the tools. There wasnt dps meters at the beginning of gw2, of raids. That didnt stop toxism and elitism. > > > > People are Toxic because of the tools that give them the right to be, Take the tools away and they can't be Toxic about that one tool now can they? > > They wanted a gun analogy so let's give them one: give a weapon to a mad man and he'll kill you. If weapons didn't exist then he might be annoying in different ways but you'd still be alive. There are ways to increase toxicity in games. Whether dps meters are a major contributing factor is still unknown but if you play with pugs it sure feels like giving a gun to a psycho and telling him to "have fun" since it's used for drama, kickfests and whinning. Note that I haven't been excluded before for low dps, it's just the overall drama and whiny atmosphere that pisses me off. Remove the tool they use to moan and they will keep the moaning to themselves. The gun analogy was to make a point: bad people are bad no matter what. Have you played raids back from the beginning? Toxism was already alive and well back them. And again: is there no toxicity in pvp? Do people keep that for themselves? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkoNS.3261 Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 > @Kiamu.8295 said: > Anet says : Our general policy is that anything that gives advantage is forbidden; anything that imbalances the game in favor of one player over another is strictly disallowed. > Vauge but if a player gets kicked for low dps because of others using a dps meter to find out that player was low on dps than the above statement means that dps meters are or should be disallowed making the meter have a clear advantage for others and not for the poor soul who got kicked no that just shows who is bad and is holding back the other 4 guys, performance issue on players part. you cant say i would be better if other could not see how bad i am compared to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vesica tempestas.1563 Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 > @BlaqueFyre.5678 said: > > @Rennie.6750 said: > > > @Kiamu.8295 said: > > > > @Deihnyx.6318 said: > > > > > @Kheldorn.5123 said: > > > > > I would like to remind everyone that User Agreement and every other GW2 document we agree on are only applicable for Game itself and ArenaNet. This is absolutely impossible for the company to demand from the user to automatically accept that they are going to broadcast our data to 3rd party tool and take no responsibility for the outcome of such action. > > > > > > > > > > As it was brought up before, ArenaNet is not the owner of the behavioral data we are providing - which means they are administrating how we play, but we, players, are owners of how we play the game. We should be asked, with no assumption of "automatic consent" invention that is being pushed here, to share our data - in this case in form of DPS meter. And this is what this thread is about. This tool is provided by 3rd party developer that we never agreed to be part of our agreement with ArenaNet. > > > > > > > > > > As mentioned before, dps number and other combat related data can be considered our behavioral data which means is under privacy protection. ArenaNet can't just claim they own this data and whatever they want with this without our consent. They own the service and its assets, they don't own how we play. > > > > > > > > > > This is what I'm bringing up since the beginning of this thread. If they want to allow DPS meter tool that allows to monitor our game behaviour, this tool should come with an option to consent to share data to the tool itself and other players. Currently, even if I'm not using this tool, ArenaNet without my consent or even knowledge demands me to assume people are doing this by default. > > > > > > > > > > This is why I am asking to review the policy and change it to honor players' privacy, security and ownership of our behavioral data. > > > > > > > > > > **Reminder: this discussion is not about removing DPS meter tools. It's about the policy and implementation of the tool. Please DO NOT make this thread into fight between players. Discuss the subject.** > > > > > > > > > @Kiamu.8295 said: > > > > > DPS meters are the downfall of every mmorpg. Dps meters cause a hostile enviorment, it's a cancer I wish these Devs would plain out stick to "NO" instead of giving in, The Raid King of MMO's ... WOW it caused a cancer of asshats that caused a hostile enviorment and toxic community. I won't pay for a game with people counting on those meters more than enjoying a game...... it's a game to have fun not to have another part time job. > > > > > > > > > > Thanks > > > > > > > > > > > > > Since most people are american here. Please make the analogy with gun laws. > > > > > > > > People are toxic, not the tools. There wasnt dps meters at the beginning of gw2, of raids. That didnt stop toxism and elitism. > > > > > > People are Toxic because of the tools that give them the right to be, Take the tools away and they can't be Toxic about that one tool now can they? > > > > They wanted a gun analogy so let's give them one: give a weapon to a mad man and he'll kill you. If weapons didn't exist then he might be annoying in different ways but you'd still be alive. There are ways to increase toxicity in games. Whether dps meters are a major contributing factor is still unknown but if you play with pugs it sure feels like giving a gun to a psycho and telling him to "have fun" since it's used for drama, kickfests and whinning. Note that I haven't been excluded before for low dps, it's just the overall drama and whiny atmosphere that pisses me off. Remove the tool they use to moan and they will keep the moaning to themselves. > > Horrible analogy people will kill with out guns, anything can be used in that manner, History shows us this. History also shows us before Combat Meters ever existed in GW2 that those same toxic players were just as toxic using other means to kick/belittle people, the Meter doesn’t change this behavior and it actually promotes accurate data which improves the health of the game over all otherwise it will all be based on feeling and arbitrary things that people are being griefed about, it’s a simple concept really. Meters are designed to encourage competitive measurement, it's design builds a culture where numbers > people. As for Guns its not really an appropriate thing to compare with in a games forum but look at the average kill rate per head in first world countries - USA is in the lead by a mile and is so desensitised and perverse it actually has to debate things like silencers while being influenced by lobbying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 > @Kiamu.8295 said: > > @Deihnyx.6318 said: > > > @Kiamu.8295 said: > > > > @Deihnyx.6318 said: > > > > > @Kiamu.8295 said: > > > > > Anet says : Our general policy is that anything that gives advantage is forbidden; anything that imbalances the game in favor of one player over another is strictly disallowed. > > > > > Vauge but if a player gets kicked for low dps because of others using a dps meter to find out that player was low on dps than the above statement means that dps meters are or should be disallowed making the meter have a clear advantage for others and not for the poor soul who got kicked > > > > > > > > Dps meters give you an advantage about how you play? > > > > Okay... > > > > > > you clearly did not read that correctly > > > > You could just say we have a different interpretation of the policy. I don't happen to agree with yours. > > > > Whatever. This is just one more of these arguments that are gonna make people even more suspicious as to why one would want to hide their poor performance when joining hard content. > > sorry I edited my post here is the edit > > 4 ppl in a group lets say players a, b, c vote to kick d because of low dps ... clearly that gave an advantage to players a, b & c to get someone else for higher dps. > the dps meter according to Anet is "NOT" supposed to give an advantage to others. > > now I can see if you want to kick someone for being a slacker and trying to get a free ride ... fine by me however if the group is doing ok and moving right along then whats the point of kicking that one person if that one person was keeping up but not as up to par as he or she could be doing? > > Thats why I hate dps meters ... they were used as a tool to be hostile to other ppy That's only an advantage if having that person in the group to begin with is a disadvantage. You can already see when someone is clueless and not pulling their weight, the meter just gives you evidence to support your assertion that they are not even trying and have no respect for you or your time. Why should a group of people who want to do content effectively be forced to play with people who just want others to do the work for them? If people did not try to sneak into groups that want to do their content effectively and efficiently and get carried to rewards, there would be no need for the DPS meter and there would be no hostility to other players because everyone would be doing their best. But guess what? People try and get through doing as little as possible all the time and those that like to excel at whatever they want to do get pretty fed up with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrubySzymek.1362 Posted October 15, 2017 Author Share Posted October 15, 2017 > @"Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582" said: > > @Kiamu.8295 said: > > > @Deihnyx.6318 said: > > > > @Kiamu.8295 said: > > > > > @Deihnyx.6318 said: > > > > > > @Kiamu.8295 said: > > > > > > Anet says : Our general policy is that anything that gives advantage is forbidden; anything that imbalances the game in favor of one player over another is strictly disallowed. > > > > > > Vauge but if a player gets kicked for low dps because of others using a dps meter to find out that player was low on dps than the above statement means that dps meters are or should be disallowed making the meter have a clear advantage for others and not for the poor soul who got kicked > > > > > > > > > > Dps meters give you an advantage about how you play? > > > > > Okay... > > > > > > > > you clearly did not read that correctly > > > > > > You could just say we have a different interpretation of the policy. I don't happen to agree with yours. > > > > > > Whatever. This is just one more of these arguments that are gonna make people even more suspicious as to why one would want to hide their poor performance when joining hard content. > > > > sorry I edited my post here is the edit > > > > 4 ppl in a group lets say players a, b, c vote to kick d because of low dps ... clearly that gave an advantage to players a, b & c to get someone else for higher dps. > > the dps meter according to Anet is "NOT" supposed to give an advantage to others. > > > > now I can see if you want to kick someone for being a slacker and trying to get a free ride ... fine by me however if the group is doing ok and moving right along then whats the point of kicking that one person if that one person was keeping up but not as up to par as he or she could be doing? > > > > Thats why I hate dps meters ... they were used as a tool to be hostile to other ppy > > That's only an advantage if having that person in the group to begin with is a disadvantage. > > You can already see when someone is clueless and not pulling their weight, the meter just gives you evidence to support your assertion that they are not even trying and have no respect for you or your time. Why should a group of people who want to do content effectively be forced to play with people who just want others to do the work for them? > > If people did not try to sneak into groups that want to do their content effectively and efficiently and get carried to rewards, there would be no need for the DPS meter and there would be no hostility to other players because everyone would be doing their best. if you can see this without this tool, its existance is redundant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deihnyx.6318 Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 > @Kiamu.8295 said: > > @Deihnyx.6318 said: > > > @Kiamu.8295 said: > > > > @Deihnyx.6318 said: > > > > > @Kiamu.8295 said: > > > > > Anet says : Our general policy is that anything that gives advantage is forbidden; anything that imbalances the game in favor of one player over another is strictly disallowed. > > > > > Vauge but if a player gets kicked for low dps because of others using a dps meter to find out that player was low on dps than the above statement means that dps meters are or should be disallowed making the meter have a clear advantage for others and not for the poor soul who got kicked > > > > > > > > Dps meters give you an advantage about how you play? > > > > Okay... > > > > > > you clearly did not read that correctly > > > > You could just say we have a different interpretation of the policy. I don't happen to agree with yours. > > > > Whatever. This is just one more of these arguments that are gonna make people even more suspicious as to why one would want to hide their poor performance when joining hard content. > > BTW my performance was not bad ... I was the tank Im not judging performances and i dont use arcdps for anything else than build templates (the good thing people conveniently forget to talk about here), unless im in my static. Because im in that majority of arcdps users that are NOT toxic towards other players and totally take people of random skill to dungeons fractals and all. I care much more about people doing mechanics well than their dps rank. Heck. Im not even close to being a dps racer. Doesnt mean i dont see the benefits of that tool. Asking for Anet to enforce their rule about respect and punish toxicity would in my opinion be much more beneficial to EVERYONE than blaming tools. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vesica tempestas.1563 Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 > @"Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582" said: > > @Kiamu.8295 said: > > > @Deihnyx.6318 said: > > > > @Kiamu.8295 said: > > > > > @Deihnyx.6318 said: > > > > > > @Kiamu.8295 said: > > > > > > Anet says : Our general policy is that anything that gives advantage is forbidden; anything that imbalances the game in favor of one player over another is strictly disallowed. > > > > > > Vauge but if a player gets kicked for low dps because of others using a dps meter to find out that player was low on dps than the above statement means that dps meters are or should be disallowed making the meter have a clear advantage for others and not for the poor soul who got kicked > > > > > > > > > > Dps meters give you an advantage about how you play? > > > > > Okay... > > > > > > > > you clearly did not read that correctly > > > > > > You could just say we have a different interpretation of the policy. I don't happen to agree with yours. > > > > > > Whatever. This is just one more of these arguments that are gonna make people even more suspicious as to why one would want to hide their poor performance when joining hard content. > > > > sorry I edited my post here is the edit > > > > 4 ppl in a group lets say players a, b, c vote to kick d because of low dps ... clearly that gave an advantage to players a, b & c to get someone else for higher dps. > > the dps meter according to Anet is "NOT" supposed to give an advantage to others. > > > > now I can see if you want to kick someone for being a slacker and trying to get a free ride ... fine by me however if the group is doing ok and moving right along then whats the point of kicking that one person if that one person was keeping up but not as up to par as he or she could be doing? > > > > Thats why I hate dps meters ... they were used as a tool to be hostile to other ppy > > That's only an advantage if having that person in the group to begin with is a disadvantage. > > You can already see when someone is clueless and not pulling their weight, the meter just gives you evidence to support your assertion that they are not even trying and have no respect for you or your time. Why should a group of people who want to do content effectively be forced to play with people who just want others to do the work for them? > > If people did not try to sneak into groups that want to do their content effectively and efficiently and get carried to rewards, there would be no need for the DPS meter and there would be no hostility to other players because everyone would be doing their best. forced to play? rather than not 'pulling' his weight and 'sneaking' maybe he is just not skilled enough yet. Once apon a time we were all at that skill level.- This post demonstrates the problem exactly where there is a nasty viewpoint of people based on a number. And again the issue is NOT where a group advertises an expected skill level, noone disputes that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Illconceived Was Na.9781 Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 Regardless of whether there are actual issues involved, this thread no longer seems to be interested in discussing them. Unfortunately, a small group of people have dominated the last five pages since @"Chris Cleary.8017" posted a clarification of ANet's policy and they seem to be talking **at** each other instead of with each other. I'm sympathetic to the OP's presumption that "Opt In" is always a better policy than "Opt Out." However, as long as DPS meters exist as 3rd party tools, ANet won't be able to require that, even if they agreed (which, by the way, they don't). So if I felt as strongly as the OP about this, I'd stop posting in this thread and instead of insisting that the policy needs to be revised, instead start a private conversation with @"deltaconnected.4058" about just what would be involved in making ArcDPS "opt in". The coder might be convinced that there's a need for it or the OP might realize it's really a lot more complicated than it sounds and perhaps not as important as they first thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 > @Kheldorn.5123 said: > > @"Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582" said: > > > @Kiamu.8295 said: > > > > @Deihnyx.6318 said: > > > > > @Kiamu.8295 said: > > > > > > @Deihnyx.6318 said: > > > > > > > @Kiamu.8295 said: > > > > > > > Anet says : Our general policy is that anything that gives advantage is forbidden; anything that imbalances the game in favor of one player over another is strictly disallowed. > > > > > > > Vauge but if a player gets kicked for low dps because of others using a dps meter to find out that player was low on dps than the above statement means that dps meters are or should be disallowed making the meter have a clear advantage for others and not for the poor soul who got kicked > > > > > > > > > > > > Dps meters give you an advantage about how you play? > > > > > > Okay... > > > > > > > > > > you clearly did not read that correctly > > > > > > > > You could just say we have a different interpretation of the policy. I don't happen to agree with yours. > > > > > > > > Whatever. This is just one more of these arguments that are gonna make people even more suspicious as to why one would want to hide their poor performance when joining hard content. > > > > > > sorry I edited my post here is the edit > > > > > > 4 ppl in a group lets say players a, b, c vote to kick d because of low dps ... clearly that gave an advantage to players a, b & c to get someone else for higher dps. > > > the dps meter according to Anet is "NOT" supposed to give an advantage to others. > > > > > > now I can see if you want to kick someone for being a slacker and trying to get a free ride ... fine by me however if the group is doing ok and moving right along then whats the point of kicking that one person if that one person was keeping up but not as up to par as he or she could be doing? > > > > > > Thats why I hate dps meters ... they were used as a tool to be hostile to other ppy > > > > That's only an advantage if having that person in the group to begin with is a disadvantage. > > > > You can already see when someone is clueless and not pulling their weight, the meter just gives you evidence to support your assertion that they are not even trying and have no respect for you or your time. Why should a group of people who want to do content effectively be forced to play with people who just want others to do the work for them? > > > > If people did not try to sneak into groups that want to do their content effectively and efficiently and get carried to rewards, there would be no need for the DPS meter and there would be no hostility to other players because everyone would be doing their best. > > if you can see this without this tool, its existance is redundant To quote myself "...the meter just gives you evidence to support your assertion that they are not even trying and have no respect for you or your time." > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > @"Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582" said: > > > @Kiamu.8295 said: > > > > @Deihnyx.6318 said: > > > > > @Kiamu.8295 said: > > > > > > @Deihnyx.6318 said: > > > > > > > @Kiamu.8295 said: > > > > > > > Anet says : Our general policy is that anything that gives advantage is forbidden; anything that imbalances the game in favor of one player over another is strictly disallowed. > > > > > > > Vauge but if a player gets kicked for low dps because of others using a dps meter to find out that player was low on dps than the above statement means that dps meters are or should be disallowed making the meter have a clear advantage for others and not for the poor soul who got kicked > > > > > > > > > > > > Dps meters give you an advantage about how you play? > > > > > > Okay... > > > > > > > > > > you clearly did not read that correctly > > > > > > > > You could just say we have a different interpretation of the policy. I don't happen to agree with yours. > > > > > > > > Whatever. This is just one more of these arguments that are gonna make people even more suspicious as to why one would want to hide their poor performance when joining hard content. > > > > > > sorry I edited my post here is the edit > > > > > > 4 ppl in a group lets say players a, b, c vote to kick d because of low dps ... clearly that gave an advantage to players a, b & c to get someone else for higher dps. > > > the dps meter according to Anet is "NOT" supposed to give an advantage to others. > > > > > > now I can see if you want to kick someone for being a slacker and trying to get a free ride ... fine by me however if the group is doing ok and moving right along then whats the point of kicking that one person if that one person was keeping up but not as up to par as he or she could be doing? > > > > > > Thats why I hate dps meters ... they were used as a tool to be hostile to other ppy > > > > That's only an advantage if having that person in the group to begin with is a disadvantage. > > > > You can already see when someone is clueless and not pulling their weight, the meter just gives you evidence to support your assertion that they are not even trying and have no respect for you or your time. Why should a group of people who want to do content effectively be forced to play with people who just want others to do the work for them? > > > > If people did not try to sneak into groups that want to do their content effectively and efficiently and get carried to rewards, there would be no need for the DPS meter and there would be no hostility to other players because everyone would be doing their best. > > forced to play? rather than not 'pulling' his weight and 'sneaking' maybe he is just not skilled enough yet. Once apon a time we were all at that skill level.- This post demonstrates the problem exactly where there is a nasty viewpoint of people based on a number. And again the issue is NOT where a group advertises an expected skill level, noone disputes that. All the time I put up LFG that states something along the lines of "T4 Daily, Experienced please" and all the time you get people joining that do not know the encounters and do not have enough AR or they just try and coast though and have the other 4 people do the work for them. If someone does that, they have "snuck" into a group they should not be playing with because they are not skilled enough yet. They should go play with people of their skill level until that level increases to play with people who are fully geared and know the encounters and want to finish them in an efficient manner. Usually you try to give them pointers or ask about their build and actually help them out but they either ignore everyone or they explode into some triade of how they can play just fine when it is obvious they were seeking a carry. To me, this is far more toxic than using a meter to prove their incompetence and then voting to kick them so everyone else who wants to play to the best of their ability doesn't feel used by someone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Belorn.2659 Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > Meters are designed to encourage competitive measurement, it's design builds a culture where numbers > people. As for Guns its not really an appropriate thing to compare with in a games forum but look at the average kill rate per head in first world countries - USA is in the lead by a mile and is so desensitised and perverse it actually has to debate things like silencers while being influenced by lobbying. That is false. Meters are designed for self improvement by measuring performance in comparison to those you play with in real game play environment. It is a improved version of the golem, which is a form of advantage but not the kind that people is implying in this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rennie.6750 Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 > @Deihnyx.6318 said: > > @Rennie.6750 said: > > > @Kiamu.8295 said: > > > > @Deihnyx.6318 said: > > > > > @Kheldorn.5123 said: > > > > > I would like to remind everyone that User Agreement and every other GW2 document we agree on are only applicable for Game itself and ArenaNet. This is absolutely impossible for the company to demand from the user to automatically accept that they are going to broadcast our data to 3rd party tool and take no responsibility for the outcome of such action. > > > > > > > > > > As it was brought up before, ArenaNet is not the owner of the behavioral data we are providing - which means they are administrating how we play, but we, players, are owners of how we play the game. We should be asked, with no assumption of "automatic consent" invention that is being pushed here, to share our data - in this case in form of DPS meter. And this is what this thread is about. This tool is provided by 3rd party developer that we never agreed to be part of our agreement with ArenaNet. > > > > > > > > > > As mentioned before, dps number and other combat related data can be considered our behavioral data which means is under privacy protection. ArenaNet can't just claim they own this data and whatever they want with this without our consent. They own the service and its assets, they don't own how we play. > > > > > > > > > > This is what I'm bringing up since the beginning of this thread. If they want to allow DPS meter tool that allows to monitor our game behaviour, this tool should come with an option to consent to share data to the tool itself and other players. Currently, even if I'm not using this tool, ArenaNet without my consent or even knowledge demands me to assume people are doing this by default. > > > > > > > > > > This is why I am asking to review the policy and change it to honor players' privacy, security and ownership of our behavioral data. > > > > > > > > > > **Reminder: this discussion is not about removing DPS meter tools. It's about the policy and implementation of the tool. Please DO NOT make this thread into fight between players. Discuss the subject.** > > > > > > > > > @Kiamu.8295 said: > > > > > DPS meters are the downfall of every mmorpg. Dps meters cause a hostile enviorment, it's a cancer I wish these Devs would plain out stick to "NO" instead of giving in, The Raid King of MMO's ... WOW it caused a cancer of asshats that caused a hostile enviorment and toxic community. I won't pay for a game with people counting on those meters more than enjoying a game...... it's a game to have fun not to have another part time job. > > > > > > > > > > Thanks > > > > > > > > > > > > > Since most people are american here. Please make the analogy with gun laws. > > > > > > > > People are toxic, not the tools. There wasnt dps meters at the beginning of gw2, of raids. That didnt stop toxism and elitism. > > > > > > People are Toxic because of the tools that give them the right to be, Take the tools away and they can't be Toxic about that one tool now can they? > > > > They wanted a gun analogy so let's give them one: give a weapon to a mad man and he'll kill you. If weapons didn't exist then he might be annoying in different ways but you'd still be alive. There are ways to increase toxicity in games. Whether dps meters are a major contributing factor is still unknown but if you play with pugs it sure feels like giving a gun to a psycho and telling him to "have fun" since it's used for drama, kickfests and whinning. Note that I haven't been excluded before for low dps, it's just the overall drama and whiny atmosphere that pisses me off. Remove the tool they use to moan and they will keep the moaning to themselves. > > The gun analogy was to make a point: bad people are bad no matter what. > > Have you played raids back from the beginning? Toxism was already alive and well back them. > > And again: is there no toxicity in pvp? Do people keep that for themselves? You'd be surprised, but yes, while people may be a tad salty in pvp, it's often thrown in with some advice. You can't kick players so you deal with the team you have and may as well help them to focus on what's important. There's a huge difference between saying "let's fight off points, we don't need to win" and "look at this noob with shit dps, kick him". I understand that everybody is different, but it might be a bit oversentive to consider that salt is toxicity. Toxicity is taking actions that will negatively impact someone else's ability to play the said content. People stopping to point fingers, moan, kick and find a replacement (sometimes, for a critical role) is also preventing the team to play the said content, while having an underperforming player is just a challenge to overcome for the rest of the team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlaqueFyre.5678 Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > @BlaqueFyre.5678 said: > > > @Rennie.6750 said: > > > > @Kiamu.8295 said: > > > > > @Deihnyx.6318 said: > > > > > > @Kheldorn.5123 said: > > > > > > I would like to remind everyone that User Agreement and every other GW2 document we agree on are only applicable for Game itself and ArenaNet. This is absolutely impossible for the company to demand from the user to automatically accept that they are going to broadcast our data to 3rd party tool and take no responsibility for the outcome of such action. > > > > > > > > > > > > As it was brought up before, ArenaNet is not the owner of the behavioral data we are providing - which means they are administrating how we play, but we, players, are owners of how we play the game. We should be asked, with no assumption of "automatic consent" invention that is being pushed here, to share our data - in this case in form of DPS meter. And this is what this thread is about. This tool is provided by 3rd party developer that we never agreed to be part of our agreement with ArenaNet. > > > > > > > > > > > > As mentioned before, dps number and other combat related data can be considered our behavioral data which means is under privacy protection. ArenaNet can't just claim they own this data and whatever they want with this without our consent. They own the service and its assets, they don't own how we play. > > > > > > > > > > > > This is what I'm bringing up since the beginning of this thread. If they want to allow DPS meter tool that allows to monitor our game behaviour, this tool should come with an option to consent to share data to the tool itself and other players. Currently, even if I'm not using this tool, ArenaNet without my consent or even knowledge demands me to assume people are doing this by default. > > > > > > > > > > > > This is why I am asking to review the policy and change it to honor players' privacy, security and ownership of our behavioral data. > > > > > > > > > > > > **Reminder: this discussion is not about removing DPS meter tools. It's about the policy and implementation of the tool. Please DO NOT make this thread into fight between players. Discuss the subject.** > > > > > > > > > > > @Kiamu.8295 said: > > > > > > DPS meters are the downfall of every mmorpg. Dps meters cause a hostile enviorment, it's a cancer I wish these Devs would plain out stick to "NO" instead of giving in, The Raid King of MMO's ... WOW it caused a cancer of asshats that caused a hostile enviorment and toxic community. I won't pay for a game with people counting on those meters more than enjoying a game...... it's a game to have fun not to have another part time job. > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Since most people are american here. Please make the analogy with gun laws. > > > > > > > > > > People are toxic, not the tools. There wasnt dps meters at the beginning of gw2, of raids. That didnt stop toxism and elitism. > > > > > > > > People are Toxic because of the tools that give them the right to be, Take the tools away and they can't be Toxic about that one tool now can they? > > > > > > They wanted a gun analogy so let's give them one: give a weapon to a mad man and he'll kill you. If weapons didn't exist then he might be annoying in different ways but you'd still be alive. There are ways to increase toxicity in games. Whether dps meters are a major contributing factor is still unknown but if you play with pugs it sure feels like giving a gun to a psycho and telling him to "have fun" since it's used for drama, kickfests and whinning. Note that I haven't been excluded before for low dps, it's just the overall drama and whiny atmosphere that pisses me off. Remove the tool they use to moan and they will keep the moaning to themselves. > > > > Horrible analogy people will kill with out guns, anything can be used in that manner, History shows us this. History also shows us before Combat Meters ever existed in GW2 that those same toxic players were just as toxic using other means to kick/belittle people, the Meter doesn’t change this behavior and it actually promotes accurate data which improves the health of the game over all otherwise it will all be based on feeling and arbitrary things that people are being griefed about, it’s a simple concept really. > > Meters are designed to encourage competitive measurement, it's design builds a culture where numbers > people. As for Guns its not really an appropriate thing to compare with in a games forum but look at the average kill rate per head in first world countries - USA is in the lead by a mile and is so desensitised and perverse it actually has to debate things like silencers while being influenced by lobbying. Hmm that logic is flawed on so many levels, let’s look at countries without guns and compare to those that have guns of course the countries with guns Will have the potential for more deaths by guns, look at those countries with fewer/no guns and see their deaths by other means like knives and so on, try to compare homicide rates per capita vs cherry picked numbers then you would have a good argument to go off of, but hey that’s just common sense. So again the gun analogy was a horrible analogy because people will kill with whatever means they can if they want to. Again Combat Meters don’t do anything or cause behavior, the behavior exists no matter what and those same people will be toxic by any means they can as shown by history. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Belorn.2659 Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said: > Regardless of whether there are actual issues involved, this thread no longer seems to be interested in discussing them. Unfortunately, a small group of people have dominated the last five pages since @"Chris Cleary.8017" posted a clarification of ANet's policy and they seem to be talking **at** each other instead of with each other. > > I'm sympathetic to the OP's presumption that "Opt In" is always a better policy than "Opt Out." However, as long as DPS meters exist as 3rd party tools, ANet won't be able to require that, even if they agreed (which, by the way, they don't). > > So if I felt as strongly as the OP about this, I'd stop posting in this thread and instead of insisting that the policy needs to be revised, instead start a private conversation with @"deltaconnected.4058" about just what would be involved in making ArcDPS "opt in". The coder might be convinced that there's a need for it or the OP might realize it's really a lot more complicated than it sounds and perhaps not as important as they first thought. While you are at it, can you also convince developers of streaming tools that the visibility players should be "opt in"? There is no way to consent in WvW if someone is streaming the combat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panda.1967 Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 > @BlaqueFyre.5678 said: > > @Rennie.6750 said: > > > @Kiamu.8295 said: > > > > @Deihnyx.6318 said: > > > > > @Kheldorn.5123 said: > > > > > I would like to remind everyone that User Agreement and every other GW2 document we agree on are only applicable for Game itself and ArenaNet. This is absolutely impossible for the company to demand from the user to automatically accept that they are going to broadcast our data to 3rd party tool and take no responsibility for the outcome of such action. > > > > > > > > > > As it was brought up before, ArenaNet is not the owner of the behavioral data we are providing - which means they are administrating how we play, but we, players, are owners of how we play the game. We should be asked, with no assumption of "automatic consent" invention that is being pushed here, to share our data - in this case in form of DPS meter. And this is what this thread is about. This tool is provided by 3rd party developer that we never agreed to be part of our agreement with ArenaNet. > > > > > > > > > > As mentioned before, dps number and other combat related data can be considered our behavioral data which means is under privacy protection. ArenaNet can't just claim they own this data and whatever they want with this without our consent. They own the service and its assets, they don't own how we play. > > > > > > > > > > This is what I'm bringing up since the beginning of this thread. If they want to allow DPS meter tool that allows to monitor our game behaviour, this tool should come with an option to consent to share data to the tool itself and other players. Currently, even if I'm not using this tool, ArenaNet without my consent or even knowledge demands me to assume people are doing this by default. > > > > > > > > > > This is why I am asking to review the policy and change it to honor players' privacy, security and ownership of our behavioral data. > > > > > > > > > > **Reminder: this discussion is not about removing DPS meter tools. It's about the policy and implementation of the tool. Please DO NOT make this thread into fight between players. Discuss the subject.** > > > > > > > > > @Kiamu.8295 said: > > > > > DPS meters are the downfall of every mmorpg. Dps meters cause a hostile enviorment, it's a cancer I wish these Devs would plain out stick to "NO" instead of giving in, The Raid King of MMO's ... WOW it caused a cancer of asshats that caused a hostile enviorment and toxic community. I won't pay for a game with people counting on those meters more than enjoying a game...... it's a game to have fun not to have another part time job. > > > > > > > > > > Thanks > > > > > > > > > > > > > Since most people are american here. Please make the analogy with gun laws. > > > > > > > > People are toxic, not the tools. There wasnt dps meters at the beginning of gw2, of raids. That didnt stop toxism and elitism. > > > > > > People are Toxic because of the tools that give them the right to be, Take the tools away and they can't be Toxic about that one tool now can they? > > > > They wanted a gun analogy so let's give them one: give a weapon to a mad man and he'll kill you. If weapons didn't exist then he might be annoying in different ways but you'd still be alive. There are ways to increase toxicity in games. Whether dps meters are a major contributing factor is still unknown but if you play with pugs it sure feels like giving a gun to a psycho and telling him to "have fun" since it's used for drama, kickfests and whinning. Note that I haven't been excluded before for low dps, it's just the overall drama and whiny atmosphere that pisses me off. Remove the tool they use to moan and they will keep the moaning to themselves. > > Horrible analogy people will kill with out guns, anything can be used in that manner, History shows us this. History also shows us before Combat Meters ever existed in GW2 that those same toxic players were just as toxic using other means to kick/belittle people, the Meter doesn’t change this behavior and it actually promotes accurate data which improves the health of the game over all otherwise it will all be based on feeling and arbitrary things that people are being griefed about, it’s a simple concept really. You seem to have completely missed the point. No one is debating that this sort of behavior existed before meters. That's a well known fact. However, this sort of behavior has **increased** with the addition of meters. It was always there, but it is **worse now**. The kicks may not be as arbitrary and unfounded as before, but they have become **more frequent**. A dungeon/raid/fractal can be reasonably completed with 10K DPS, but doing under 30k gets you kicked. And this happens from groups that **DO NOT** advertise "speed run" or "30k DPS required". I'm sorry to break it to you but "EXP" or "Experienced" or "Expert" doesn't translate into "speed run", those terms translate to "Know's the mechanics and can complete them". I can know the mechanics and complete them without doing 30k+ DPS, does that mean I don't meet the requirements for an "experienced run"? No, it doesn't, they never said they wanted 30k+ DPS or that it was a Speed Run. Instead, they are using the DPS meter as an excuse to kick over rules they didn't outline. They are using the DPS meter to kick from runs that would have been successful anyways. There have been reports of people being kicked from runs that hadn't even had a single death or wipe, simply because they didn't meet some arbitrary DPS requirement that was never listed in the first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlaqueFyre.5678 Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 > @Panda.1967 said: > > @BlaqueFyre.5678 said: > > > @Rennie.6750 said: > > > > @Kiamu.8295 said: > > > > > @Deihnyx.6318 said: > > > > > > @Kheldorn.5123 said: > > > > > > I would like to remind everyone that User Agreement and every other GW2 document we agree on are only applicable for Game itself and ArenaNet. This is absolutely impossible for the company to demand from the user to automatically accept that they are going to broadcast our data to 3rd party tool and take no responsibility for the outcome of such action. > > > > > > > > > > > > As it was brought up before, ArenaNet is not the owner of the behavioral data we are providing - which means they are administrating how we play, but we, players, are owners of how we play the game. We should be asked, with no assumption of "automatic consent" invention that is being pushed here, to share our data - in this case in form of DPS meter. And this is what this thread is about. This tool is provided by 3rd party developer that we never agreed to be part of our agreement with ArenaNet. > > > > > > > > > > > > As mentioned before, dps number and other combat related data can be considered our behavioral data which means is under privacy protection. ArenaNet can't just claim they own this data and whatever they want with this without our consent. They own the service and its assets, they don't own how we play. > > > > > > > > > > > > This is what I'm bringing up since the beginning of this thread. If they want to allow DPS meter tool that allows to monitor our game behaviour, this tool should come with an option to consent to share data to the tool itself and other players. Currently, even if I'm not using this tool, ArenaNet without my consent or even knowledge demands me to assume people are doing this by default. > > > > > > > > > > > > This is why I am asking to review the policy and change it to honor players' privacy, security and ownership of our behavioral data. > > > > > > > > > > > > **Reminder: this discussion is not about removing DPS meter tools. It's about the policy and implementation of the tool. Please DO NOT make this thread into fight between players. Discuss the subject.** > > > > > > > > > > > @Kiamu.8295 said: > > > > > > DPS meters are the downfall of every mmorpg. Dps meters cause a hostile enviorment, it's a cancer I wish these Devs would plain out stick to "NO" instead of giving in, The Raid King of MMO's ... WOW it caused a cancer of asshats that caused a hostile enviorment and toxic community. I won't pay for a game with people counting on those meters more than enjoying a game...... it's a game to have fun not to have another part time job. > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Since most people are american here. Please make the analogy with gun laws. > > > > > > > > > > People are toxic, not the tools. There wasnt dps meters at the beginning of gw2, of raids. That didnt stop toxism and elitism. > > > > > > > > People are Toxic because of the tools that give them the right to be, Take the tools away and they can't be Toxic about that one tool now can they? > > > > > > They wanted a gun analogy so let's give them one: give a weapon to a mad man and he'll kill you. If weapons didn't exist then he might be annoying in different ways but you'd still be alive. There are ways to increase toxicity in games. Whether dps meters are a major contributing factor is still unknown but if you play with pugs it sure feels like giving a gun to a psycho and telling him to "have fun" since it's used for drama, kickfests and whinning. Note that I haven't been excluded before for low dps, it's just the overall drama and whiny atmosphere that pisses me off. Remove the tool they use to moan and they will keep the moaning to themselves. > > > > Horrible analogy people will kill with out guns, anything can be used in that manner, History shows us this. History also shows us before Combat Meters ever existed in GW2 that those same toxic players were just as toxic using other means to kick/belittle people, the Meter doesn’t change this behavior and it actually promotes accurate data which improves the health of the game over all otherwise it will all be based on feeling and arbitrary things that people are being griefed about, it’s a simple concept really. > > You seem to have completely missed the point. > > No one is debating that this sort of behavior existed before meters. That's a well known fact. However, this sort of behavior has **increased** with the addition of meters. It was always there, but it is **worse now**. The kicks may not be as arbitrary and unfounded as before, but they have become **more frequent**. A dungeon/raid/fractal can be reasonably completed with 10K DPS, but doing under 30k gets you kicked. And this happens from groups that **DO NOT** advertise "speed run" or "30k DPS required". I'm sorry to break it to you but "EXP" or "Experienced" or "Expert" doesn't translate into "speed run", those terms translate to "Know's the mechanics and can complete them". I can know the mechanics and complete them without doing 30k+ DPS, does that mean I don't meet the requirements for an "experienced run"? No, it doesn't, they never said they wanted 30k+ DPS or that it was a Speed Run. Instead, they are using the DPS meter as an excuse to kick over rules they didn't outline. They are using the DPS meter to kick from runs that would have been successful anyways. There have been reports of people being kicked from runs that hadn't even had a single death or wipe, simply because they didn't meet some arbitrary DPS requirement that was never listed in the first place. So is the proof of your claims that the Toxicity/behavior has increased. I shall wait. People keep saying that Meters are the cause of Toxicity in this thread alone. So please enlighten us of the increase of Toxic before with the addition of Combat Meters. I’ve asked for this proof of your claimed facts multiple times in this thread that you conveniently fail to answer or address. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deihnyx.6318 Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 > @Rennie.6750 said: > > @Deihnyx.6318 said: > > > @Rennie.6750 said: > > > > @Kiamu.8295 said: > > > > > @Deihnyx.6318 said: > > > > > > @Kheldorn.5123 said: > > > > > > I would like to remind everyone that User Agreement and every other GW2 document we agree on are only applicable for Game itself and ArenaNet. This is absolutely impossible for the company to demand from the user to automatically accept that they are going to broadcast our data to 3rd party tool and take no responsibility for the outcome of such action. > > > > > > > > > > > > As it was brought up before, ArenaNet is not the owner of the behavioral data we are providing - which means they are administrating how we play, but we, players, are owners of how we play the game. We should be asked, with no assumption of "automatic consent" invention that is being pushed here, to share our data - in this case in form of DPS meter. And this is what this thread is about. This tool is provided by 3rd party developer that we never agreed to be part of our agreement with ArenaNet. > > > > > > > > > > > > As mentioned before, dps number and other combat related data can be considered our behavioral data which means is under privacy protection. ArenaNet can't just claim they own this data and whatever they want with this without our consent. They own the service and its assets, they don't own how we play. > > > > > > > > > > > > This is what I'm bringing up since the beginning of this thread. If they want to allow DPS meter tool that allows to monitor our game behaviour, this tool should come with an option to consent to share data to the tool itself and other players. Currently, even if I'm not using this tool, ArenaNet without my consent or even knowledge demands me to assume people are doing this by default. > > > > > > > > > > > > This is why I am asking to review the policy and change it to honor players' privacy, security and ownership of our behavioral data. > > > > > > > > > > > > **Reminder: this discussion is not about removing DPS meter tools. It's about the policy and implementation of the tool. Please DO NOT make this thread into fight between players. Discuss the subject.** > > > > > > > > > > > @Kiamu.8295 said: > > > > > > DPS meters are the downfall of every mmorpg. Dps meters cause a hostile enviorment, it's a cancer I wish these Devs would plain out stick to "NO" instead of giving in, The Raid King of MMO's ... WOW it caused a cancer of asshats that caused a hostile enviorment and toxic community. I won't pay for a game with people counting on those meters more than enjoying a game...... it's a game to have fun not to have another part time job. > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Since most people are american here. Please make the analogy with gun laws. > > > > > > > > > > People are toxic, not the tools. There wasnt dps meters at the beginning of gw2, of raids. That didnt stop toxism and elitism. > > > > > > > > People are Toxic because of the tools that give them the right to be, Take the tools away and they can't be Toxic about that one tool now can they? > > > > > > They wanted a gun analogy so let's give them one: give a weapon to a mad man and he'll kill you. If weapons didn't exist then he might be annoying in different ways but you'd still be alive. There are ways to increase toxicity in games. Whether dps meters are a major contributing factor is still unknown but if you play with pugs it sure feels like giving a gun to a psycho and telling him to "have fun" since it's used for drama, kickfests and whinning. Note that I haven't been excluded before for low dps, it's just the overall drama and whiny atmosphere that pisses me off. Remove the tool they use to moan and they will keep the moaning to themselves. > > > > The gun analogy was to make a point: bad people are bad no matter what. > > > > Have you played raids back from the beginning? Toxism was already alive and well back them. > > > > And again: is there no toxicity in pvp? Do people keep that for themselves? > > You'd be surprised, but yes, while people may be a tad salty in pvp, it's often thrown in with some advice. You can't kick players so you deal with the team you have and may as well help them to focus on what's important. There's a huge difference between saying "let's fight off points, we don't need to win" and "look at this noob with kitten dps, kick him". I understand that everybody is different, but it might be a bit oversentive to consider that salt is toxicity. Toxicity is taking actions that will negatively impact someone else's ability to play the said content. People stopping to point fingers, moan, kick and find a replacement (sometimes, for a critical role) is also preventing the team to play the said content, while having an underperforming player is just a challenge to overcome for the rest of the team. Pvp toxicity is more along the line of childlish insults, calling people retarded and telling "everyone else but me is terrible". And also idling, report for lack of dps (yes thats a thing) etc. No need of tool for people to be immatures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panda.1967 Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said: > So if I felt as strongly as the OP about this, I'd stop posting in this thread and instead of insisting that the policy needs to be revised, instead start a private conversation with @"deltaconnected.4058" about just what would be involved in making ArcDPS "opt in". The coder might be convinced that there's a need for it or the OP might realize it's really a lot more complicated than it sounds and perhaps not as important as they first thought. Perhaps if he would actually engage in civilized conversation about the subject. But thus far, every time he has taken part in any discussion revolving around the subject he has attacked other players, and made it painfully clear that he has zero interest in even exploring the possibility of an opt-in feature. The only way such a feature will ever see the light of day in ArcDPS is if ArenaNet tells him it's a requirement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vesica tempestas.1563 Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 > @BlaqueFyre.5678 said: > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > @BlaqueFyre.5678 said: > > > > @Rennie.6750 said: > > > > > @Kiamu.8295 said: > > > > > > @Deihnyx.6318 said: > > > > > > > @Kheldorn.5123 said: > > > > > > > I would like to remind everyone that User Agreement and every other GW2 document we agree on are only applicable for Game itself and ArenaNet. This is absolutely impossible for the company to demand from the user to automatically accept that they are going to broadcast our data to 3rd party tool and take no responsibility for the outcome of such action. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As it was brought up before, ArenaNet is not the owner of the behavioral data we are providing - which means they are administrating how we play, but we, players, are owners of how we play the game. We should be asked, with no assumption of "automatic consent" invention that is being pushed here, to share our data - in this case in form of DPS meter. And this is what this thread is about. This tool is provided by 3rd party developer that we never agreed to be part of our agreement with ArenaNet. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As mentioned before, dps number and other combat related data can be considered our behavioral data which means is under privacy protection. ArenaNet can't just claim they own this data and whatever they want with this without our consent. They own the service and its assets, they don't own how we play. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is what I'm bringing up since the beginning of this thread. If they want to allow DPS meter tool that allows to monitor our game behaviour, this tool should come with an option to consent to share data to the tool itself and other players. Currently, even if I'm not using this tool, ArenaNet without my consent or even knowledge demands me to assume people are doing this by default. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is why I am asking to review the policy and change it to honor players' privacy, security and ownership of our behavioral data. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > **Reminder: this discussion is not about removing DPS meter tools. It's about the policy and implementation of the tool. Please DO NOT make this thread into fight between players. Discuss the subject.** > > > > > > > > > > > > > @Kiamu.8295 said: > > > > > > > DPS meters are the downfall of every mmorpg. Dps meters cause a hostile enviorment, it's a cancer I wish these Devs would plain out stick to "NO" instead of giving in, The Raid King of MMO's ... WOW it caused a cancer of asshats that caused a hostile enviorment and toxic community. I won't pay for a game with people counting on those meters more than enjoying a game...... it's a game to have fun not to have another part time job. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Since most people are american here. Please make the analogy with gun laws. > > > > > > > > > > > > People are toxic, not the tools. There wasnt dps meters at the beginning of gw2, of raids. That didnt stop toxism and elitism. > > > > > > > > > > People are Toxic because of the tools that give them the right to be, Take the tools away and they can't be Toxic about that one tool now can they? > > > > > > > > They wanted a gun analogy so let's give them one: give a weapon to a mad man and he'll kill you. If weapons didn't exist then he might be annoying in different ways but you'd still be alive. There are ways to increase toxicity in games. Whether dps meters are a major contributing factor is still unknown but if you play with pugs it sure feels like giving a gun to a psycho and telling him to "have fun" since it's used for drama, kickfests and whinning. Note that I haven't been excluded before for low dps, it's just the overall drama and whiny atmosphere that pisses me off. Remove the tool they use to moan and they will keep the moaning to themselves. > > > > > > Horrible analogy people will kill with out guns, anything can be used in that manner, History shows us this. History also shows us before Combat Meters ever existed in GW2 that those same toxic players were just as toxic using other means to kick/belittle people, the Meter doesn’t change this behavior and it actually promotes accurate data which improves the health of the game over all otherwise it will all be based on feeling and arbitrary things that people are being griefed about, it’s a simple concept really. > > > > Meters are designed to encourage competitive measurement, it's design builds a culture where numbers > people. As for Guns its not really an appropriate thing to compare with in a games forum but look at the average kill rate per head in first world countries - USA is in the lead by a mile and is so desensitised and perverse it actually has to debate things like silencers while being influenced by lobbying. > > Hmm that logic is flawed on so many levels, let’s look at countries without guns and compare to those that have guns of course the countries with guns Will have the potential for more deaths by guns, look at those countries with fewer/no guns and see their deaths by other means like knives and so on, try to compare homicide rates per capita vs cherry picked numbers then you would have a good argument to go off of, but hey that’s just common sense. So again the gun analogy was a horrible analogy because people will kill with whatever means they can if they want to. > > Again Combat Meters don’t do anything or cause behavior, the behavior exists no matter what and those same people will be toxic by any means they can as shown by history. > > yes the country with guns will have the potential for more death by guns. thats EXACTLY the point, countries with knives instead if guns in first world countries do not in fact 'compensate' with more knife deaths. Its obvioulsy really, you cant try to kill 500 hundred people with a knife from a hotel room. In saying that, Guns is a poor comparison (I didnt suggest this) As for damage meters, it is a tool designed to measure performance, therefore this encorages a culture where performance is more important - even when in a non competitive environment. On top of that you have human behaviour that changes when there is a perception of being monitored. 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CptAurellian.9537 Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 It's amazing. I'm offline for two days and, whoops, I miss all the fun of an already dead horse being beaten to mud. I guess dps meters have now officially replaced raid easy modes as the "in" topic for mindless QQ. Thanks to Chris Cleary for stating ANet's stance once again _and_ for not moving to appease the whiners. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrubySzymek.1362 Posted October 15, 2017 Author Share Posted October 15, 2017 > @Panda.1967 said: > > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said: > > So if I felt as strongly as the OP about this, I'd stop posting in this thread and instead of insisting that the policy needs to be revised, instead start a private conversation with @"deltaconnected.4058" about just what would be involved in making ArcDPS "opt in". The coder might be convinced that there's a need for it or the OP might realize it's really a lot more complicated than it sounds and perhaps not as important as they first thought. > > Perhaps if he would actually engage in civilized conversation about the subject. But thus far, every time he has taken part in any discussion revolving around the subject he has attacked other players, and made it painfully clear that he has zero interest in even exploring the possibility of an opt-in feature. The only way such a feature will ever see the light of day in ArcDPS is if ArenaNet tells him it's a requirement. deltaconnected is not a part of any agreement or not officialy related to GW2. He happened to create a tool, a very useful tool, that is being wrongly implemented because of faulty policy. I don't think anyone should beg a random person in game to make his tool work differently, it's 100% on ArenaNet to change the policy and force him to make changes or ban his tool altogether if he refuses to cooperate. It happened with BGDM and so can happen with arc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyger.5429 Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 I still don't understand why Anet doesn't just make their own dps meters/build templates instead of relying on third party software. This way everyone that owns the game could have access to it without going out of their way to download new apps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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