Ayrilana.1396 Posted February 21, 2020 Share Posted February 21, 2020 > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > @"Shikaru.7618" said: > > > > Get rid of kp by bridging the insane performance gap between an open world bottom feeder and a veteran raider. > > > Yes. _This_ is the gap Anet would need to bridge. Unfortunately, i do not believe it's possible without some major rework of the whole combat/class/build system. > > > > > > > > > > Why a rework when the gap is due to player skill? > First, this is a bit more than _just_ about skill. Skill, yes, plays a role, but that's what makes the difference when everything else (gear, traits, skills selected) is the same. But the knowledge of all of those is as important. Even small changes in traits and skills selected can have significant impact on your effectiveness, and you cannot do your dps rotations right if you don't know how they should like (and, let's be honest, most of the rotations are not very intuitive). > Second, the game can teach you about game mechanics, but most of things that impact effectiveness simply cannot be taught by the game. The game has no idea what the proper rotation should like, and while the freestyle build system can help you create magnificent and supereffective builds, usually it only helps you in crippling your character. > > So, basically, with the current system, most players won't get any better, and there's nothing the game can do about it. The only way to close the insane performance gap between them and hardcore veterans is by decreasing the possibility of such a gap even existing - and that can only be done by removing all those things that faciliate it. And that can't be done without a major rework of a whole build/class/combat system. > > Which, as we know, is not likely to happen. Everything you mentioned is considered skill though. What you’re suggesting is adding a handicap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shikaru.7618 Posted February 21, 2020 Share Posted February 21, 2020 > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > > @"Shikaru.7618" said: > > > > > Get rid of kp by bridging the insane performance gap between an open world bottom feeder and a veteran raider. > > > > Yes. _This_ is the gap Anet would need to bridge. Unfortunately, i do not believe it's possible without some major rework of the whole combat/class/build system. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why a rework when the gap is due to player skill? > > First, this is a bit more than _just_ about skill. Skill, yes, plays a role, but that's what makes the difference when everything else (gear, traits, skills selected) is the same. But the knowledge of all of those is as important. Even small changes in traits and skills selected can have significant impact on your effectiveness, and you cannot do your dps rotations right if you don't know how they should like (and, let's be honest, most of the rotations are not very intuitive). > > Second, the game can teach you about game mechanics, but most of things that impact effectiveness simply cannot be taught by the game. The game has no idea what the proper rotation should like, and while the freestyle build system can help you create magnificent and supereffective builds, usually it only helps you in crippling your character. > > > > So, basically, with the current system, most players won't get any better, and there's nothing the game can do about it. The only way to close the insane performance gap between them and hardcore veterans is by decreasing the possibility of such a gap even existing - and that can only be done by removing all those things that faciliate it. And that can't be done without a major rework of a whole build/class/combat system. > > > > Which, as we know, is not likely to happen. > > Everything you mentioned is considered skill though. What you’re suggesting is adding a handicap. Depends on how you define skill. I see knowledge and execution as 2 separate things. Knowledge gaps are relatively easy to overcome in game by implementing recommended builds when you hit level 80. Assuming people dont change the way they execute other than gear and traits, youd likely close that 10x gap quite a bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ayrilana.1396 Posted February 21, 2020 Share Posted February 21, 2020 > @"Shikaru.7618" said: > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > > > @"Shikaru.7618" said: > > > > > > Get rid of kp by bridging the insane performance gap between an open world bottom feeder and a veteran raider. > > > > > Yes. _This_ is the gap Anet would need to bridge. Unfortunately, i do not believe it's possible without some major rework of the whole combat/class/build system. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why a rework when the gap is due to player skill? > > > First, this is a bit more than _just_ about skill. Skill, yes, plays a role, but that's what makes the difference when everything else (gear, traits, skills selected) is the same. But the knowledge of all of those is as important. Even small changes in traits and skills selected can have significant impact on your effectiveness, and you cannot do your dps rotations right if you don't know how they should like (and, let's be honest, most of the rotations are not very intuitive). > > > Second, the game can teach you about game mechanics, but most of things that impact effectiveness simply cannot be taught by the game. The game has no idea what the proper rotation should like, and while the freestyle build system can help you create magnificent and supereffective builds, usually it only helps you in crippling your character. > > > > > > So, basically, with the current system, most players won't get any better, and there's nothing the game can do about it. The only way to close the insane performance gap between them and hardcore veterans is by decreasing the possibility of such a gap even existing - and that can only be done by removing all those things that faciliate it. And that can't be done without a major rework of a whole build/class/combat system. > > > > > > Which, as we know, is not likely to happen. > > > > Everything you mentioned is considered skill though. What you’re suggesting is adding a handicap. > > Depends on how you define skill. I see knowledge and execution as 2 separate things. Knowledge gaps are relatively easy to overcome in game by implementing recommended builds when you hit level 80. Assuming people dont change the way they execute other than gear and traits, youd likely close that 10x gap quite a bit. I see them as being the same thing but just different aspects. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralporing.1957 Posted February 21, 2020 Share Posted February 21, 2020 > @"Shikaru.7618" said: > Depends on how you define skill. I see knowledge and execution as 2 separate things. Knowledge gaps are relatively easy to overcome in game by implementing recommended builds when you hit level 80. Assuming people dont change the way they execute other than gear and traits, youd likely close that 10x gap quite a bit. Only if good builds will be a result of planned dev design, not something community comes with. And only if those builds will remain stable, instead of changing every now and then. And rotation, which is an integral part of the build is something that cannot be reasonably taught within the game > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > @"Shikaru.7618" said: > > Depends on how you define skill. I see knowledge and execution as 2 separate things. Knowledge gaps are relatively easy to overcome in game by implementing recommended builds when you hit level 80. Assuming people dont change the way they execute other than gear and traits, youd likely close that 10x gap quite a bit. > > I see them as being the same thing but just different aspects. I don't see ability/willingness to look up things on third party sites as skill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ayrilana.1396 Posted February 21, 2020 Share Posted February 21, 2020 > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > @"Shikaru.7618" said: > > > Depends on how you define skill. I see knowledge and execution as 2 separate things. Knowledge gaps are relatively easy to overcome in game by implementing recommended builds when you hit level 80. Assuming people dont change the way they execute other than gear and traits, youd likely close that 10x gap quite a bit. > > > > I see them as being the same thing but just different aspects. > I don't see ability/willingness to look up things on third party sites as skill. > I wasn't saying that was a skill. It'll help improve your skill but it itself is not a skill. Edit: Just to clarify, "that" being what you just said in your post. While the act of researching something is a skill, it wasn't what I was referring to in this context. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StarDroid.1038 Posted February 23, 2020 Share Posted February 23, 2020 I'm one of the people who try to make squads for strikes. Personally when I 1st saw the LI requirements for Whisper I laughed, but as time has went while I still find it really silly I do understand why people are doing it. When Whisper strike mission came out everyone was doing it, new players or vets, raiders or not, it was a nice mix of people from all skill levels and so success rate of the strikes was pretty high, but recently I have noticed a drop in interest in Whisper strike and that has caused pretty high dispersity in skill level for some runs, while those runs can be still done it comes at a price of time and annoyance. Personally I get around that issue by having reliable people from raid/fractal group in support roles, but can't always have my people around, because we all do what we do with our free time. Those runs where I'm alone and commanding Whisper lately have started to fail a lot more and pug turnover is really high, some leaving after a single try, making me LFG for 5min at times, because I want to get a 2nd healer. I won't mention getting best setup with all supports, because enough times I just take what I get and accept, because it can be done anyway reliably and I know people don't like reading LFGs fully, that said out of respect for everyone I do hard demand healers for Whisper. I personally think LI requirements came from a issue that interest is dropping and those who want to do it daily prefer to better wait 15min-30mins and do it in 1-2 tries rather then spend 4-5 tries and be unsure, if it will be done and how many people will leave after each attempt. I'm not claiming either of approaches guarantees a kill, but flocking to an safer, but slower option is something quite normal. One last thing I want to say, people are free pick and make whatever squads they want and have whatever requirements they want, we have to respected that even, if we don't agree, because we have the option of making our own squad and doing it our way, if people agree they will join, if we fail they will leave. I personally find it pretty nice seeing people doing the strike for 1st time and seeing them getting better and better at mechanics and then getting a kill, shame that ain't the outcome always thou. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krzysztof.5973 Posted February 23, 2020 Share Posted February 23, 2020 > @"Shadowmoon.7986" said: > Honestly if they had a proper gear check, it might fix the problem. Kp is to try to filter out the worse of the worst, those who are not raid/strike ready. Mainly we are talking about folks in random gear doing 3k dps. Personally, if there was a proper inspect with gear and traits, i would not care who is in my group as long as they done the leg work to get proper gear and build, no mater the xp. Built-in gearcheck for instanced content would have been nice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Kuro.8937 Posted February 23, 2020 Share Posted February 23, 2020 Its pretty easy solution to fix KP mentality . Reduce the rewards in the LFG (true/false) and increase them in Guilds. Any push to place random peaople in Guilds , is a welcomed one , to create bonds Edit: Or you can get full rewards , for the first 3 times you had initiated the party in the LFG . Let someone else enlist/start the LFG A person demanding such huge amount of KillProof , surely will invite another 1-2 members in his party , to start the group under a different leadership . It will be like a mini-guild self-containing all these high skilled players Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ayrilana.1396 Posted February 24, 2020 Share Posted February 24, 2020 That’s not an easy solution nor would it resolve what you claim to be an issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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