viquing.8254 Posted March 1, 2020 Share Posted March 1, 2020 > @"bravan.3876" said: > > @"viquing.8254" said: > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > @"viquing.8254" said: > > > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > > > @"viquing.8254" said: > > > > > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > > > > > @"Moradorin.6217" said: > > > > > > > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Aza.2105" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Apolo.5942" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > I think mesmer in general needed a hard nerf. > > > > > > > > > > > > Its been a toxic class since day 1. > > > > > > > > > > > > That said, removing a dodge bar in a game mode, breaks with the design philosophy of the entire rest of the game. > > > > > > > > > > > > They need to find another way to nerf the class HARD. The class needs to be nerfed but another way. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, but mirage cloak breaks the design philosophy of the rest of the game. No one else can dodge while attacking or while disabled. So you give up one thing to get something else. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "No one else can dodge while attacking" except thief, ele, war, necro. - you forgot Rev, Guard, Ranger, Engi, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "No one else can avoid dmg while disabled without a stunbreak" (by dodge or other defense skills) except Warrior, Guard, Ele, Thief, Ranger, Rev. Some of the skills/ traits even completely passive and on specs with the ability to passively facetank way more. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So yes Mirage is build around a dodge mechanic just gives what other classes have tons of in other forms already on specs in general able to facetank way more, while also (pre patch) still having more dodges. MC sounds very op in comparision xD > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I say it again, MC was not the problem anymore, that was balanced out by several pre patch nerfs and the 3 inherent costs implemented into the spec since PoF release. Mirage already had less dodges than most other classes. The only thing made ONLY Condimirage (not Powermirage) op and ez to play and noobcarry where the op and too passive designed clone ambushes (and normal condi clone autoattacks) allowing the Mirage to do insane passive dmg from only clones and that even when disabled. The dmg a Powermirage can do when disabled only by clones is a joke (and that is good), also a joke compared to what other classes can do for dmg with dodges or while dodging. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But even the op and passive condi clone ambushes and normal clone autoattacks pre patch wouldn't have been enough for pre patch Condimirage to stay in pre patch meta, they needed to use broken and passsive noobcarry Chaosline in addition. That is how "OP and beyond broken" Miragetraitline by its own was/ is :joy: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Right, and rather than ever just fixing Mirage (like chrono) they kept changing core skills and traits to nerf mirage and chrono .*boggle* They nerfed the Domination line and more people went condi from power mirage iirc, then Illusions (condi stacks reduced, torch damage slowed/nerfed, etc) then when people went over to Chaos line they nerfed that (super speed, CI, etc, etc, etc basically all of chaos has been nerfed at this point every trait I think at least once in the last 2 yr). Then finally they "fix" mirage like they "fixed" chrono. (Im sure Im missing stuff just trying to agree that rather than fix mirage and chrono traits they "fixed" everything in a way that didnt "fix" anything really) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nerfing Chaosline is not the issue, it needs to be nerfed even more or better just reworked. > > > > > > No. > > > > > > > Core or not, this traitline is the most braindead Mesmer has. > > > > > > This traitline is the most gameplay defining mesmer has. > > > > > > What has to be done is to make other traitline impact gameplay like chaos and domination, not only a "I shatter with this passive damage boost or I shatter with this other damage boost choice" when you have the choice because there is clearly dead traits... > > > > > > > > > > > > Have the decency to put a "in your opinion" words before spamming your vision trying to make it a facts. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We will never agree to that. I think i explained very well why Chaosline has the highest lvl of passivity in the traitline and the lowest skillceiling from all (including elites, Inspiration is on second place). It also fits with my own ingame experience when playing Mesmer myself and fighting vs other Mesmers on different classes. Btw i made another definition post about the lvls of passivity maybe you can understand that one better than the other older one i made for you, where you had problems to understand what i mean because it was badly structured. But it is a big wall of text again, up to you if you want to waste time reading it. But i added IN MY OPINION just for you to the Chaosline needs nerf (or better rework) topic. I don't add an "in my opinion" to the anaysis of lvls of passivity because that is just a selfmade categorisation from facts and not an opinion. > > > > > > > > And I think I explained pretty well too while it has the same level of passivity as other traitline because I don't agree with all of your passivity definitions. > > > > And you own game experience is like mine, it's not a punch argument. > > > > So yeah we will never agree, particulary considering the lack of solutions who will automatically end with monoshatter gameplay if we remove chaos. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You put the random aegis block from PU on the same passive lvl with the same skill lvl and noobcarry potential as the vigor on crit trait in Duelling, what is objectively wrong, no matter how you categories the active-passive continuum based on reality. That has nothing to do with opinions. > > > > It has, poping crit on normal gameplay is different than activate stealth and more easy as you can just pewpew poping it. > > Yes inside the active -passive continuum the timed use of an utilityskill providing stealth is more active than a passive vigor proc. Just as a passive vigor proc that still needs to be used by active and reactive dodging is more active/ less passive than a passive aegis proc, even more when the aegis proc is random so neither the Mesmer nor his opponent can active and tactically work with it at any point of the fight. That is exactly the point of a multi dimensional active-passive continuum. You put traits/ skills on same lvl inside of the continuum which are totally different when you look at more details, details that are OBJECTIVELY there and CAN'T BE DENIED. That has nothing to do with opinions. When you deny that, than you simply didn't understand what i wrote, than you are missing some facts. In the first case it's a cheery on the cake, in the second it's a boost to an utility to allow the mes to go in aoe/melee for tactical move yeah. > Also why you even ague about an utility skill use? That has nothing to do with Chaosline. PU doesn't provide stealth on button use, it provides passive boon generation after an active use of an utility/weapon stealthskill. It is like comparing apples with oranges. PU is a trait that passively, fully automatically by game randomly generates boonprocs while stealthed which, in case of aegis, even allows to randomly lucky avoid (means zero playerskill involved) a big hit and survive. > There are ofc more active things in the game than a vigor proc on crit, but a vigor proc on crit is also more active than most stuff you find in Chaosline. = 2. > Not to mention that more active or more passive doesn't always means the more passive has lower skill ceiling, for proper analysis of that you need to count even more details into account. Ofc like you take care to not talking about efficiency when it arrange you. > > @"Shadow.1345" said: > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > Mesmer haters shoot themself into the foot when voting for that change, actually funny. Lets see when they will start to understand, maybe only when the grave is closing they put themselfs in... > > > > So this statement is confusing. Are they going to regret that they made Mesmer more powerful or is mesmer dead because Mirage got nerfed.? > > > > > I am not surprised, that you are still confused, and that on a lvl leaves me open-mouthed. I am rly not sure here if you just want to trigger me. But if not, then we are moving in circles and i do not start a wall of text again to explain to you why also this question just shows that you still deny to understand facts. Also you made quite clear after my last big wall of text effort to explain something to you, that you are not interested/willing to discuss it as deep as it needs to be discussed to not be just a superficial nonsense propaganda lvl discussion at the crackerbarrel of a bar based on zero facts and no logic. I am not interested to do that. > > > Discussing with you both Viquing/ Shadow feels like: You say rain is dry. I say uhmm wait... no, rain is wet. You say: No that is your opinion and i do not agree to it. :joy: Sadly i cannot just go out of the door while its raining to prove me right here, i also cannot take a boat and sail around the world to prove that the earth is not flat... When logic itself doesn't convince then i have no tools anymore to go any further. I guess i should just stop at this point and say: Ok disagree, if you feel better than. It's not a disagree thing, it's that you keep spamming your view trying to make it true even if we argue against, what did you hope, that we give up until all trait get nerfed ? 3 dead trait ins''t enough ? What will be the next target once they remove what you want ? You will start looking at duelling or domi traitlines ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow.1345 Posted March 1, 2020 Share Posted March 1, 2020 > > @"Shadow.1345" said: > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > Mesmer haters shoot themself into the foot when voting for that change, actually funny. Lets see when they will start to understand, maybe only when the grave is closing they put themselfs in... > > > > So this statement is confusing. Are they going to regret that they made Mesmer more powerful or is mesmer dead because Mirage got nerfed.? > > > > > I am not surprised, that you are still confused, and that on a lvl leaves me open-mouthed. I am rly not sure here if you just want to trigger me. But if not, then we are moving in circles and i do not start a wall of text again to explain to you why also this question just shows that you still deny to understand facts. Also you made quite clear after my last big wall of text effort to explain something to you, that you are not interested/willing to discuss it as deep as it needs to be discussed to not be just a superficial nonsense propaganda lvl discussion at the crackerbarrel of a bar based on zero facts and no logic. I am not interested to do that. > > > Discussing with you both Viquing/ Shadow feels like: You say rain is dry. I say uhmm wait... no, rain is wet. You say: No that is your opinion and i do not agree to it. :joy: Sadly i cannot just go out of the door while its raining to prove me right here, i also cannot take a boat and sail around the world to prove that the earth is not flat... When logic itself doesn't convince then i have no tools anymore to go any further. I guess i should just stop at this point and say: Ok disagree, if you feel better than. You're right man. I'm stupid. I'm a dummy. I can't think in terms any more simple than 1+1 =2. My parents dropped me on my head a bunch when I was a kid and it made too dumb to understand things on a deeper scientific level. I'm sorry I'm mentally retarded and nowhere near your level of supreme genius. You are the greatest genius on these forums and a not just that but a man of supreme virtue that should have a shrine built to you. ANet should make you the boss and make all decisions through you. From now what ever you say I will treat as gospel. So explain to me like I am five how Mirage getting nerfed is going to make Mesmer haters regret what ANet did to Mirage? Because if Mirage is nerfed too hard and nobody plays it then they should be happy. I mean at least I think so but as stated I can't think on that deeper multi-dimensional, scientific, tactical level like you. How are they going to regret it. What will be their comeuppance? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Handler.4816 Posted March 1, 2020 Share Posted March 1, 2020 > @"bravan.3876" said: > > @"Moradorin.6217" said: > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said: > > > > > @"Aza.2105" said: > > > > > > @"Apolo.5942" said: > > > > > > I think mesmer in general needed a hard nerf. > > > > > > Its been a toxic class since day 1. > > > > > > That said, removing a dodge bar in a game mode, breaks with the design philosophy of the entire rest of the game. > > > > > > They need to find another way to nerf the class HARD. The class needs to be nerfed but another way. > > > > > > > > > > Yes, but mirage cloak breaks the design philosophy of the rest of the game. No one else can dodge while attacking or while disabled. So you give up one thing to get something else. > > > > > > > > "No one else can dodge while attacking" except thief, ele, war, necro. - you forgot Rev, Guard, Ranger, Engi, > > > > > > "No one else can avoid dmg while disabled without a stunbreak" (by dodge or other defense skills) except Warrior, Guard, Ele, Thief, Ranger, Rev. Some of the skills/ traits even completely passive and on specs with the ability to passively facetank way more. > > > > > > So yes Mirage is build around a dodge mechanic just gives what other classes have tons of in other forms already on specs in general able to facetank way more, while also (pre patch) still having more dodges. MC sounds very op in comparision xD > > > > > > I say it again, MC was not the problem anymore, that was balanced out by several pre patch nerfs and the 3 inherent costs implemented into the spec since PoF release. Mirage already had less dodges than most other classes. The only thing made ONLY Condimirage (not Powermirage) op and ez to play and noobcarry where the op and too passive designed clone ambushes (and normal condi clone autoattacks) allowing the Mirage to do insane passive dmg from only clones and that even when disabled. The dmg a Powermirage can do when disabled only by clones is a joke (and that is good), also a joke compared to what other classes can do for dmg with dodges or while dodging. > > > > > > But even the op and passive condi clone ambushes and normal clone autoattacks pre patch wouldn't have been enough for pre patch Condimirage to stay in pre patch meta, they needed to use broken and passsive noobcarry Chaosline in addition. That is how "OP and beyond broken" Miragetraitline by its own was/ is :joy: > > > > Right, and rather than ever just fixing Mirage (like chrono) they kept changing core skills and traits to nerf mirage and chrono .*boggle* They nerfed the Domination line and more people went condi from power mirage iirc, then Illusions (condi stacks reduced, torch damage slowed/nerfed, etc) then when people went over to Chaos line they nerfed that (super speed, CI, etc, etc, etc basically all of chaos has been nerfed at this point every trait I think at least once in the last 2 yr). Then finally they "fix" mirage like they "fixed" chrono. (Im sure Im missing stuff just trying to agree that rather than fix mirage and chrono traits they "fixed" everything in a way that didnt "fix" anything really) > > Nerfing Chaosline is not the issue (in my opinion), it needs to be nerfed even more or better just reworked. Core or not, this traitline is the most braindead Mesmer has (followed by Inspiration) and was (maybe even still is, no clue atm) insanely broken. I agree to condi shatter traits being overnerfed with the time instead just touching the root problems like condi ambushes and condi clone normal autoattacks. What does this even mean? Every single profession in the game has a line for defense and a line for healing. I don't see what distinguishes Chaos/Inspiration from Éarth/Water, Retribution/Salvation, Shadow Arts/Acrobatcs, etc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aza.2105 Posted March 1, 2020 Share Posted March 1, 2020 > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > @"Aza.2105" said: > > > @"Odik.4587" said: > > > Keep in mind, this 2 players with GOD OF PVP titles/mAT winners both and exceptionally good and supposed to mulch their opponents below their skill level but they do struggle a lot. > > > > And you are measuring their skill level how? > > > > > > by the time they play. > by the rank they reach. > by the word of mouth. > by playing with them. > by playing against them. > by the AT they stream. > by mAT they stream. > Sindrener is the best thief I have personally played against maybe there are better ones, im not good at thief, but hes the best I met. But gw2 hasn't been a very skillful game in a long time. Its just been a dodge or die fiesta. I'd be inclined to agree if the tops were using builds that weren't meta and dominating. But that isn't the case. My opinion is this is the first time when we will see who knows how to play the game and who does not. Do not be surprised if you start to hear about many players you never seen before and the some of the previous tops just ninja vanish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow.1345 Posted March 1, 2020 Share Posted March 1, 2020 > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > @"Moradorin.6217" said: > > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said: > > > > > > @"Aza.2105" said: > > > > > > > @"Apolo.5942" said: > > > > > > > I think mesmer in general needed a hard nerf. > > > > > > > Its been a toxic class since day 1. > > > > > > > That said, removing a dodge bar in a game mode, breaks with the design philosophy of the entire rest of the game. > > > > > > > They need to find another way to nerf the class HARD. The class needs to be nerfed but another way. > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, but mirage cloak breaks the design philosophy of the rest of the game. No one else can dodge while attacking or while disabled. So you give up one thing to get something else. > > > > > > > > > > "No one else can dodge while attacking" except thief, ele, war, necro. - you forgot Rev, Guard, Ranger, Engi, > > > > > > > > "No one else can avoid dmg while disabled without a stunbreak" (by dodge or other defense skills) except Warrior, Guard, Ele, Thief, Ranger, Rev. Some of the skills/ traits even completely passive and on specs with the ability to passively facetank way more. > > > > > > > > So yes Mirage is build around a dodge mechanic just gives what other classes have tons of in other forms already on specs in general able to facetank way more, while also (pre patch) still having more dodges. MC sounds very op in comparision xD > > > > > > > > I say it again, MC was not the problem anymore, that was balanced out by several pre patch nerfs and the 3 inherent costs implemented into the spec since PoF release. Mirage already had less dodges than most other classes. The only thing made ONLY Condimirage (not Powermirage) op and ez to play and noobcarry where the op and too passive designed clone ambushes (and normal condi clone autoattacks) allowing the Mirage to do insane passive dmg from only clones and that even when disabled. The dmg a Powermirage can do when disabled only by clones is a joke (and that is good), also a joke compared to what other classes can do for dmg with dodges or while dodging. > > > > > > > > But even the op and passive condi clone ambushes and normal clone autoattacks pre patch wouldn't have been enough for pre patch Condimirage to stay in pre patch meta, they needed to use broken and passsive noobcarry Chaosline in addition. That is how "OP and beyond broken" Miragetraitline by its own was/ is :joy: > > > > > > Right, and rather than ever just fixing Mirage (like chrono) they kept changing core skills and traits to nerf mirage and chrono .*boggle* They nerfed the Domination line and more people went condi from power mirage iirc, then Illusions (condi stacks reduced, torch damage slowed/nerfed, etc) then when people went over to Chaos line they nerfed that (super speed, CI, etc, etc, etc basically all of chaos has been nerfed at this point every trait I think at least once in the last 2 yr). Then finally they "fix" mirage like they "fixed" chrono. (Im sure Im missing stuff just trying to agree that rather than fix mirage and chrono traits they "fixed" everything in a way that didnt "fix" anything really) > > > > Nerfing Chaosline is not the issue (in my opinion), it needs to be nerfed even more or better just reworked. Core or not, this traitline is the most braindead Mesmer has (followed by Inspiration) and was (maybe even still is, no clue atm) insanely broken. I agree to condi shatter traits being overnerfed with the time instead just touching the root problems like condi ambushes and condi clone normal autoattacks. > > What does this even mean? Every single profession in the game has a line for defense and a line for healing. I don't see what distinguishes Chaos/Inspiration from Éarth/Water, Retribution/Salvation, Shadow Arts/Acrobatcs, etc Bro you can't possibly understand that deep 6 dimensional tactical thinking behind it. That 5 seconds of regen and 2 seconds of protection every 15 seconds is triple OG hardnoobcarry passive. It's power beyond your comprehension. You can't possibly do 650 damage over 5 seconds to counter that hardnoobcarry boon that was totally unearned. You thought it was Mirage line that was making Mesmer facerolly. Nah bro, It was Metaphysical Rejuventation and Illsuionary Membrane that was haunting mesmer hater dreams and now they will rue the day that Anet didn't nerf Chaos instead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Svez Poizon XD.5268 Posted March 1, 2020 Share Posted March 1, 2020 Hi, simple balance for mirage is: allow it to have 2 dodges, using Infinite Horizon trait=50 endurance or just 1 dodge. And thats is, let players to use other 2 traits in that row instead of always going for infitinite horizon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonidrex.5649 Posted March 1, 2020 Share Posted March 1, 2020 > @"Aza.2105" said: > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > @"Aza.2105" said: > > > > @"Odik.4587" said: > > > > Keep in mind, this 2 players with GOD OF PVP titles/mAT winners both and exceptionally good and supposed to mulch their opponents below their skill level but they do struggle a lot. > > > > > > And you are measuring their skill level how? > > > > > > > > > > by the time they play. > > by the rank they reach. > > by the word of mouth. > > by playing with them. > > by playing against them. > > by the AT they stream. > > by mAT they stream. > > Sindrener is the best thief I have personally played against maybe there are better ones, im not good at thief, but hes the best I met. > > But gw2 hasn't been a very skillful game in a long time. Its just been a dodge or die fiesta. I'd be inclined to agree if the tops were using builds that weren't meta and dominating. But that isn't the case. My opinion is this is the first time when we will see who knows how to play the game and who does not. Do not be surprised if you start to hear about many players you never seen before and the some of the previous tops just ninja vanish. I have played against hundreds of thiefs using same build as sind, he was the only one that stand out. if his or other people builds were OP is meaningless, they played these broken builds the best from my personal experience. Everyone can copy his build and play it, not everyone can do it as well as he and others like him do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zerkro.4350 Posted March 2, 2020 Share Posted March 2, 2020 > @"vyncius.6105" said: > pre nerf condi mirage was stupid broken, it was nearly impossible to kill, had crazy amount of condi stacking. > Mirage, FB, scourge shouldnt exist in pvp at all, just because they are so hard to balance. They should be nerfed to being considered as troll pick or just entirely removed from the pvp (anet will never do that), so i stay with first option. What about we mesmers that dont play on condi? If condi is the problem the address condi traits and durations... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bravan.3876 Posted March 3, 2020 Share Posted March 3, 2020 > @"Shadow.1345" said: > So explain to me like I am five how Mirage getting nerfed is going to make Mesmer haters regret what ANet did to Mirage? Because if Mirage is nerfed too hard and nobody plays it then they should be happy. I mean at least I think so but as stated I can't think on that deeper multi-dimensional, scientific, tactical level like you. How are they going to regret it. What will be their comeuppance? > That was explained directly above my sentence in the same post and in 10000 other posts from me and others before. Just open your eyes. I doubt when i repead for the 1000000. time you will then understand, when you still didn't have. > @"bravan.3876" said: > With other words: Voting for the one dodge change only makes sense when you hope that Mirage will dissapear completely because of this. In terms of making it more skilled/harder to play/less noobfriendly mechanically the change is completely nonsense. So yes sure, when you are a Mesmer hater and all you care for is make the class/ spec you hate disappear, then you can vote for it (not that this change necesssarily will reach that goal, but it has at least a good change). But when your unbiased goal is to give Mirage skillfull, not noobcarrying but at same time STILL VIABLE builds, then this change is nonsense and nothing you want. Because in case Mirage will be playable (=viable), it will be still not more skillful, it will be still passive and even more dodge spammy on cd and only for defensive purposes with the usual passive spin-off of getting some condi stacks after dodge you can't work with in an active and tactical, means skillful way. Means one main balance issue of Condimirage didn't get fixed at all. It even got extended to other Mirage playstyles like power, which were mostly active and high skill ceiling pre patch and now are dumbed down (if not unplayable) and just as passive as Condi now because they simply do not have the ability anymore to play the Mirage mechanic active because the resource to do so is overnerfed and that even in a fundamental way of double contradicting (first contradicting the reasonable/senseful gamewide basic mechanic of having 2 dodges for reactive and non spammy dodge management and second contradicting the Mirage mechanic itself by overnerfing the resource it actually needs to work). At max the change makes Condimirage less op (what gets compensated by every class got nerfed too for quite a bit), but Mirage got for sure not more skillful mechanically. But more skillful seems to be nothing you care for. Sad. And even more, because you could have got this "less op" in a way that also leads to a higher skill ceiling and not a lower one, that leads to less passive and more interesting playstyle and also would not dumb down or even kill not op, not passive, high skill ceiling power build as a spin-off, this change is just dumb. Means this "less op" (if it will be less op on Condi, that is not even proven yet) we get for very high costs/ for a very high price in form of less skill ceiling, less tactical deepness and less mechanical complexity and that not only on op Condimirage as it was pre patch but now on ALL possible Mirage builds. But i guess if you and Anet could decide between 1. buying a meal for the price of 2 meals OR 2. getting the same meal for free and on top of that getting an icecream as a bonus, you both would also still buy the meal for the price of 2 meals. Cuz logic! > @"Shadow.1345" said: > > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > @"Moradorin.6217" said: > > > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > > > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said: > > > > > > > @"Aza.2105" said: > > > > > > > > @"Apolo.5942" said: > > > > > > > > I think mesmer in general needed a hard nerf. > > > > > > > > Its been a toxic class since day 1. > > > > > > > > That said, removing a dodge bar in a game mode, breaks with the design philosophy of the entire rest of the game. > > > > > > > > They need to find another way to nerf the class HARD. The class needs to be nerfed but another way. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, but mirage cloak breaks the design philosophy of the rest of the game. No one else can dodge while attacking or while disabled. So you give up one thing to get something else. > > > > > > > > > > > > "No one else can dodge while attacking" except thief, ele, war, necro. - you forgot Rev, Guard, Ranger, Engi, > > > > > > > > > > "No one else can avoid dmg while disabled without a stunbreak" (by dodge or other defense skills) except Warrior, Guard, Ele, Thief, Ranger, Rev. Some of the skills/ traits even completely passive and on specs with the ability to passively facetank way more. > > > > > > > > > > So yes Mirage is build around a dodge mechanic just gives what other classes have tons of in other forms already on specs in general able to facetank way more, while also (pre patch) still having more dodges. MC sounds very op in comparision xD > > > > > > > > > > I say it again, MC was not the problem anymore, that was balanced out by several pre patch nerfs and the 3 inherent costs implemented into the spec since PoF release. Mirage already had less dodges than most other classes. The only thing made ONLY Condimirage (not Powermirage) op and ez to play and noobcarry where the op and too passive designed clone ambushes (and normal condi clone autoattacks) allowing the Mirage to do insane passive dmg from only clones and that even when disabled. The dmg a Powermirage can do when disabled only by clones is a joke (and that is good), also a joke compared to what other classes can do for dmg with dodges or while dodging. > > > > > > > > > > But even the op and passive condi clone ambushes and normal clone autoattacks pre patch wouldn't have been enough for pre patch Condimirage to stay in pre patch meta, they needed to use broken and passsive noobcarry Chaosline in addition. That is how "OP and beyond broken" Miragetraitline by its own was/ is :joy: > > > > > > > > Right, and rather than ever just fixing Mirage (like chrono) they kept changing core skills and traits to nerf mirage and chrono .*boggle* They nerfed the Domination line and more people went condi from power mirage iirc, then Illusions (condi stacks reduced, torch damage slowed/nerfed, etc) then when people went over to Chaos line they nerfed that (super speed, CI, etc, etc, etc basically all of chaos has been nerfed at this point every trait I think at least once in the last 2 yr). Then finally they "fix" mirage like they "fixed" chrono. (Im sure Im missing stuff just trying to agree that rather than fix mirage and chrono traits they "fixed" everything in a way that didnt "fix" anything really) > > > > > > Nerfing Chaosline is not the issue (in my opinion), it needs to be nerfed even more or better just reworked. Core or not, this traitline is the most braindead Mesmer has (followed by Inspiration) and was (maybe even still is, no clue atm) insanely broken. I agree to condi shatter traits being overnerfed with the time instead just touching the root problems like condi ambushes and condi clone normal autoattacks. > > > > What does this even mean? Every single profession in the game has a line for defense and a line for healing. I don't see what distinguishes Chaos/Inspiration from Éarth/Water, Retribution/Salvation, Shadow Arts/Acrobatcs, etc > > Bro you can't possibly understand that deep 6 dimensional tactical thinking behind it. That 5 seconds of regen and 2 seconds of protection every 15 seconds is triple OG hardnoobcarry passive. It's power beyond your comprehension. You can't possibly do 650 damage over 5 seconds to counter that hardnoobcarry boon that was totally unearned. You thought it was Mirage line that was making Mesmer facerolly. Nah bro, It was Metaphysical Rejuventation and Illsuionary Membrane that was haunting mesmer hater dreams and now they will rue the day that Anet didn't nerf Chaos instead. I am not surprised in your one dimension world Chaos has only 2 minor traits. I already gave you a link to the Chaosline analysis, read it or not, up to you. Anyway at this point i rly think you are just trolling, you can drive in circles alone from now on. I said everything i had to say to you. > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said: > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > @"Moradorin.6217" said: > > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said: > > > > > > @"Aza.2105" said: > > > > > > > @"Apolo.5942" said: > > > > > > > I think mesmer in general needed a hard nerf. > > > > > > > Its been a toxic class since day 1. > > > > > > > That said, removing a dodge bar in a game mode, breaks with the design philosophy of the entire rest of the game. > > > > > > > They need to find another way to nerf the class HARD. The class needs to be nerfed but another way. > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, but mirage cloak breaks the design philosophy of the rest of the game. No one else can dodge while attacking or while disabled. So you give up one thing to get something else. > > > > > > > > > > "No one else can dodge while attacking" except thief, ele, war, necro. - you forgot Rev, Guard, Ranger, Engi, > > > > > > > > "No one else can avoid dmg while disabled without a stunbreak" (by dodge or other defense skills) except Warrior, Guard, Ele, Thief, Ranger, Rev. Some of the skills/ traits even completely passive and on specs with the ability to passively facetank way more. > > > > > > > > So yes Mirage is build around a dodge mechanic just gives what other classes have tons of in other forms already on specs in general able to facetank way more, while also (pre patch) still having more dodges. MC sounds very op in comparision xD > > > > > > > > I say it again, MC was not the problem anymore, that was balanced out by several pre patch nerfs and the 3 inherent costs implemented into the spec since PoF release. Mirage already had less dodges than most other classes. The only thing made ONLY Condimirage (not Powermirage) op and ez to play and noobcarry where the op and too passive designed clone ambushes (and normal condi clone autoattacks) allowing the Mirage to do insane passive dmg from only clones and that even when disabled. The dmg a Powermirage can do when disabled only by clones is a joke (and that is good), also a joke compared to what other classes can do for dmg with dodges or while dodging. > > > > > > > > But even the op and passive condi clone ambushes and normal clone autoattacks pre patch wouldn't have been enough for pre patch Condimirage to stay in pre patch meta, they needed to use broken and passsive noobcarry Chaosline in addition. That is how "OP and beyond broken" Miragetraitline by its own was/ is :joy: > > > > > > Right, and rather than ever just fixing Mirage (like chrono) they kept changing core skills and traits to nerf mirage and chrono .*boggle* They nerfed the Domination line and more people went condi from power mirage iirc, then Illusions (condi stacks reduced, torch damage slowed/nerfed, etc) then when people went over to Chaos line they nerfed that (super speed, CI, etc, etc, etc basically all of chaos has been nerfed at this point every trait I think at least once in the last 2 yr). Then finally they "fix" mirage like they "fixed" chrono. (Im sure Im missing stuff just trying to agree that rather than fix mirage and chrono traits they "fixed" everything in a way that didnt "fix" anything really) > > > > Nerfing Chaosline is not the issue (in my opinion), it needs to be nerfed even more or better just reworked. Core or not, this traitline is the most braindead Mesmer has (followed by Inspiration) and was (maybe even still is, no clue atm) insanely broken. I agree to condi shatter traits being overnerfed with the time instead just touching the root problems like condi ambushes and condi clone normal autoattacks. > > What does this even mean? Every single profession in the game has a line for defense and a line for healing. I don't see what distinguishes Chaos/Inspiration from Éarth/Water, Retribution/Salvation, Shadow Arts/Acrobatcs, etc Yes and as i mentioned several times i would rework lines which are equally passsive and low skill ceiling on other classes too. Or do you think it is skilled and fair when ppl get carried by passives? When a Thief can just eat a big hit/ burstcombo because he will be auto-safed by a passive at 50% hp? Or a Warrior who doesn't need to care for ccs because game makes him not only autoamtically stunbreak, it makes him immune (even neutralize interrupt traits like PI). Don't tell me you are one of those Mesmer mains only crying about noobcarry stuff on other classes while on Mesmer everything is allowed? One of those Mesmer mains even called old CI trait fair, skillful and balanced? Most Mesmer mains (at least the ones skilled enough to play without these traitlines even vs decent and above players) agree to Chaos and Inspiration being low skill ceiling and either too passive (Chaos) or too non reactive spammy (Inspiration) in their whole defensive design. It is not that i am coming with news here... But yes, you are right, most classes have some noobfriendly traitlines/ builds. It is a casual game, Anet wants their casuals to feel like pros. On the other side do you think it is a fair balance move from Anet to make most passive-passive traits unusable by overexaggerating long cds instead reworking them into something more active, more skillful and for that more intersting to play and to play against? I don't think that at least. Because first it doesn't solve the problem of ppl getting safed by the game playing itself for them (just less often now), second because if those traits don't get used anymore we have dead traits, what hardly can be called mindful balance... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bravan.3876 Posted March 3, 2020 Share Posted March 3, 2020 What is with this new font type and size? It is so bad... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aza.2105 Posted March 3, 2020 Share Posted March 3, 2020 > @"bravan.3876" said: > What is with this new font type and size? It is so bad... I thought it was just me, the new font is so tiny I can barely read it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bravan.3876 Posted March 3, 2020 Share Posted March 3, 2020 > @"Aza.2105" said: > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > What is with this new font type and size? It is so bad... > > I thought it was just me, the new font is so tiny I can barely read it. Once again Anet doesn't miss an opportunity to make an unnecessary change, fixing a problem that didn't exist, creating few more problems didn't exist and make something worse and clunky. :+1: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
infinitet.7546 Posted March 3, 2020 Share Posted March 3, 2020 > @"bravan.3876" said: > > @"Aza.2105" said: > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > What is with this new font type and size? It is so bad... > > > > I thought it was just me, the new font is so tiny I can barely read it. > > Once again Anet doesn't miss an opportunity to make an unnecessary change, fixing a problem that didn't exist, creating few more problems didn't exist and make something worse and clunky. :+1: They have also been working hard to find way of interpreting various peoples posts and delete them within posts relating to any new content and the "balance" patch. Giving out short suspensions for people being critical of the precious game. To me sure seems pretty pathetic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tayga.3192 Posted March 3, 2020 Share Posted March 3, 2020 > @"Aza.2105" said: > But gw2 hasn't been a very skillful game in a long time. Well, they are both playing for a very long time. Go watch 2015-2016 ESL stuff, they are both there, and that isn't even when they started. > I'd be inclined to agree if the tops were using builds that weren't meta and dominating. THEY make the meta builds, obviously they play their own builds lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZeteCommander.4937 Posted March 5, 2020 Share Posted March 5, 2020 No changes, what are developers doing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArlAlt.1630 Posted March 5, 2020 Share Posted March 5, 2020 > @"ZeteCommander.4937" said: > No changes, what are developers doing? The prob is, Mirage does fine in WvW with the help of endurance food. So now they have to either come up with a way to provide baseline 40-50% endurance regen in traits and such and then nerf food. Or try to yet again, reinvent the wheel and make Mirage balanced in pvp and completely broken in wvw/pve. My money is on the latter. :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quadox.7834 Posted March 5, 2020 Share Posted March 5, 2020 Mirage is fairly playable with one dodge, problem for powermes is that GS, sword, and shatters are nerfed aside from ambushes, making power damage very low. Phantasmal berserker was nerfed 35% and mirror blade is bugged atm. Only thing that deals actual damage on mesmer atm is MtD torment, CoF confusion, and torch burn. All in illusions line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArlAlt.1630 Posted March 5, 2020 Share Posted March 5, 2020 > @"Quadox.7834" said: > Mirage is fairly playable with one dodge, problem for powermes is that GS, sword, and shatters are nerfed aside from ambushes, making power damage very low. Phantasmal berserker was nerfed 35% and mirror blade is bugged atm. > > Only thing that deals actual damage on mesmer atm is MtD torment, CoF confusion, and torch burn. All in illusions line. Mesmer as a whole is in a pretty poor state post patch. That being said, saying the spec has no damage outside of X and Y is just you talking our of your kitten. The class is still front loaded with damage, it's just not as good as thief arguably. It's almost like Thief is a better Mesmer.... at everything. shockedpicachu.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippage.1983 Posted March 5, 2020 Share Posted March 5, 2020 The nerf is pretty hard. Not because "other classes have 2 dodges, why not us" but, because it destroys a lot of synergy with traits. The dueling and Mirage trait line were hit hard indirectly by this, but this has been pretty expected since they've been meta since the launch of PoF, regardless if you were power or condi Mesmer. In terms of survivability, I think Mesmer is still very strong. You still have an insane amount of teleports and can dodge at-will, with enemy classes having no ability to counter play your dodges. No other class gets so many get-out-of-jail-free cards as Mesmer. The only issue currently I think is that damage output is low compared to other classes. I still thing the sigil of endurance is a massive issue. Every Mirage will, and always will, double stack them, they are simply required. I think it should be removed, or at least at a minimum: increase the CD to 18 seconds. If they do this (and they should), they should at least slightly buff the Mirage trait line as well as this would nerf the class hard, but make it more healthy overall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArlAlt.1630 Posted March 5, 2020 Share Posted March 5, 2020 > @"shippage.1983" said: > The nerf is pretty hard. Not because "other classes have 2 dodges, why not us" but, because it destroys a lot of synergy with traits. > > The dueling and Mirage trait line were hit hard indirectly by this, but this has been pretty expected since they've been meta since the launch of PoF, regardless if you were power or condi Mesmer. > > In terms of survivability, I think Mesmer is still very strong. You still have an insane amount of teleports and can dodge at-will, with enemy classes having no ability to counter play your dodges. No other class gets so many get-out-of-jail-free cards as Mesmer. > > The only issue currently I think is that damage output is low compared to other classes. Have you played Thief maybe? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quadox.7834 Posted March 5, 2020 Share Posted March 5, 2020 > @"ArlAlt.1630" said: > > @"Quadox.7834" said: > > Mirage is fairly playable with one dodge, problem for powermes is that GS, sword, and shatters are nerfed aside from ambushes, making power damage very low. Phantasmal berserker was nerfed 35% and mirror blade is bugged atm. > > > > Only thing that deals actual damage on mesmer atm is MtD torment, CoF confusion, and torch burn. All in illusions line. > > Mesmer as a whole is in a pretty poor state post patch. > That being said, saying the spec has no damage outside of X and Y is just you talking our of your kitten. The class is still front loaded with damage, it's just not as good as thief arguably. It's almost like Thief is a better Mesmer.... at everything. > shockedpicachu.jpg It is obviously hyperbole but have you tried mirror blade and seen how nerfed berserker is? To quote Helseth's stream "condi mirage does more consistent power damage right now than power mesmer". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippage.1983 Posted March 5, 2020 Share Posted March 5, 2020 > @"ArlAlt.1630" said: > > @"shippage.1983" said: > > The nerf is pretty hard. Not because "other classes have 2 dodges, why not us" but, because it destroys a lot of synergy with traits. > > > > The dueling and Mirage trait line were hit hard indirectly by this, but this has been pretty expected since they've been meta since the launch of PoF, regardless if you were power or condi Mesmer. > > > > In terms of survivability, I think Mesmer is still very strong. You still have an insane amount of teleports and can dodge at-will, with enemy classes having no ability to counter play your dodges. No other class gets so many get-out-of-jail-free cards as Mesmer. > > > > The only issue currently I think is that damage output is low compared to other classes. > > Have you played Thief maybe? When Thief gets CC'd, they only have utility teleports to use as stun break escapes. They cannot dodge while also being knocked down like Mirage can. That is the big difference. Thief has a bit more counter player then Mirage as they get punished harder for CCs. Mirage almost always has a dodge available, be it their F4, their dodge, or any of their utilities. If they couldn't be used while being CC'd, that'd be 100% different, but they can. As an opposing player, how do you outplay that? If the Mirage is smart, you can't. Thief can arguably do the same but really only with 1-2 utilities, compared to Mirage's 4-5 skills that are commonly ran. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quadox.7834 Posted March 5, 2020 Share Posted March 5, 2020 > @"shippage.1983" said: > > @"ArlAlt.1630" said: > > > @"shippage.1983" said: > > > The nerf is pretty hard. Not because "other classes have 2 dodges, why not us" but, because it destroys a lot of synergy with traits. > > > > > > The dueling and Mirage trait line were hit hard indirectly by this, but this has been pretty expected since they've been meta since the launch of PoF, regardless if you were power or condi Mesmer. > > > > > > In terms of survivability, I think Mesmer is still very strong. You still have an insane amount of teleports and can dodge at-will, with enemy classes having no ability to counter play your dodges. No other class gets so many get-out-of-jail-free cards as Mesmer. > > > > > > The only issue currently I think is that damage output is low compared to other classes. > > > > Have you played Thief maybe? > > When Thief gets CC'd, they only have utility teleports to use as stun break escapes. They cannot dodge while also being knocked down like Mirage can. That is the big difference. Thief has a bit more counter player then Mirage as they get punished harder for CCs. Mirage almost always has a dodge available, be it their F4, their dodge, or any of their utilities. If they couldn't be used while being CC'd, that'd be 100% different, but they can. As an opposing player, how do you outplay that? If the Mirage is smart, you can't. Thief can arguably do the same but really only with 1-2 utilities, compared to Mirage's 4-5 skills that are commonly ran. Thief can tp back and forth through walls mesmer can't Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odik.4587 Posted March 5, 2020 Share Posted March 5, 2020 > @"ArlAlt.1630" said: > > @"shippage.1983" said: > > The nerf is pretty hard. Not because "other classes have 2 dodges, why not us" but, because it destroys a lot of synergy with traits. > > > > The dueling and Mirage trait line were hit hard indirectly by this, but this has been pretty expected since they've been meta since the launch of PoF, regardless if you were power or condi Mesmer. > > > > In terms of survivability, I think ~~Mesmer~~ thief is still very strong. You still have an insane amount of teleports and can dodge at-will, with enemy classes having no ability to counter play your dodges. No other class gets so many get-out-of-jail-free cards as ~~Mesmer~~ thief. > > > > The only issue currently I think is that damage output is low compared to other classes. > > Have you played Thief maybe? Yep, sounds like a thief. Made a few corrections. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bravan.3876 Posted March 5, 2020 Share Posted March 5, 2020 The problem with this change is not if Mirage is playable or not with only one dodge, the problem is that it dumbed down in particular Powermirage by more or less deleting the ability to use ambushes timed when they are good to use to actively outplay opponents with a tactical move or a combo at specific times. All you can do 99% of the time now is hoping that it is a good time for an ambush use from you or clones right after a needed defensive dodge. Makes all ambushes just a passive side effect no one can actively time and work with, what is ok for Condimirage because the way condi ambushes are designed it never was more than that: a passive dmg side effect. Even more nonsense it gets when you then try to add more endurance reggen/ vigor uptime to that one dodge bar to compensate for the big nerf and make the dodge management even more spammy and non reactive on cd. Compared to passive condistyle on power you needed to time ambushes from you and clones often very different from the need to evade an attack, either for timed interrupts on sword or to prepare a burst with vuln/ might stacks on gs. Both mostly need pure offensive dodges, well on purpose timed at a moment the Mirage doesn't need to dodge an attack. Powermirage lost a lot of skill ceiling, tactical deepness and mechanical complexity, it got clearly easier to play, more spammy and more passive. But ofc 99,9% of the community including most Mesmer mains (big rofl) don't care or will not even miss anything because barely anyone where able to understand or even use this mechanic to its maximum potential. So the only reason most Mesmer player might be unhappy with only one dodge is because of the less defense they might miss (what might higher the skill floor a little bit but that gets insanely overcompensated by the deleted skill ceiling) but most do not complain because they feel overlimited in their active and high skill ceiling outplay potential on Powermirage, which obviously only exist behind the horizon of most ppl in this game. Welcome to casual GW2. Such nonsense and mechanic contradicting moves making classes and with that GW2 as a whole more and more easy, low iq, less complex and noobfriendly always trigger me... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now