James.1065 Posted March 1, 2020 Share Posted March 1, 2020 I think the amount of life gain is good and so is the damage, the problem is the rediculas amount of up time in shroud. The solution is to make core necro shroud degenrate at the same rate as reaper shroud or even a little faster. Reaper shroud is 5% per second and feels good - make core shroud the same to prevent lengthy shroud camps and see how that works. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James.1065 Posted March 1, 2020 Share Posted March 1, 2020 > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > @"Stand The Wall.6987" said: > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > > To be clear undeath again is not the issue it never was and reverting it would address its potency. > > > > > > The issue is that anet cut overall dps back a bit too much allowing bunker builds to thrive > > > > HMM wonder why bunker necro is able to thrive... maybe it has to do with life force gain. the passive is bad for the game, anyway there is a soul reaping gm that does the same thing. again, for the last time, I don't actually think undeath sig should be changed to a minion heal. _it was just a random suggestion_. please learn to logic or something. > > > > No its because necros design works better in a low damage meta anyone who plays it simi constantly it actually understands this. In a high damage meta on a profession where you cannot dodge/block/ disengage everything that comes at you are bound to take hits. > > In a high damage meta where every hit chunks you for 3-6k or more and you dont have evasive options you are food. It takes a considerable amount of skill to not get eaten by any aggressor who looks at you with an empty plate ready to be served a full course meal of kill. There is a reason why the community made a whole pentacle around the diea of focus the necromancer first. Partly because its great at aoe team damage and partly because out of all professions in the game it has the least ways out of a fight once it goes in. > > Thats why so many people were also saying pre patch that necro was underperforming because almost anything that went at it with decent skill and understanding ate it. > Necro is one of the few professions where counting dodges actually still worked and still does work even now. > > Do not fault the whole issue of why its strong on life force generation. Necro is also stronger because now every hit does not chunk it for 4-5k or more it can actually decide not to break a stun or not evade and just take the hits where as other professions will have more evasive and or block options in many cases on lower cooldowns. > > Again i already addressed the idea of reducing undeath back to 2% and nerfing a few other traits as well before i started replying to your post so im not against justified nerfs and reductions. Thats where we both agree at the end of all this. So please dont talk to me like you are better for the sake of being better or something i think my logic has been pretty fair through all of this. > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > @"Stand The Wall.6987" said: > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > > To be clear undeath again is not the issue it never was and reverting it would address its potency. > > > > > > The issue is that anet cut overall dps back a bit too much allowing bunker builds to thrive > > > > HMM wonder why bunker necro is able to thrive... maybe it has to do with life force gain. the passive is bad for the game, anyway there is a soul reaping gm that does the same thing. again, for the last time, I don't actually think undeath sig should be changed to a minion heal. _it was just a random suggestion_. please learn to logic or something. > > > > No its because necros design works better in a low damage meta anyone who plays it simi constantly it actually understands this. In a high damage meta on a profession where you cannot dodge/block/ disengage everything that comes at you are bound to take hits. > > In a high damage meta where every hit chunks you for 3-6k or more and you dont have evasive options you are food. It takes a considerable amount of skill to not get eaten by any aggressor who looks at you with an empty plate ready to be served a full course meal of kill. There is a reason why the community made a whole pentacle around the diea of focus the necromancer first. Partly because its great at aoe team damage and partly because out of all professions in the game it has the least ways out of a fight once it goes in. > > Thats why so many people were also saying pre patch that necro was underperforming because almost anything that went at it with decent skill and understanding ate it. > Necro is one of the few professions where counting dodges actually still worked and still does work even now. > > Do not fault the whole issue of why its strong on life force generation. Necro is also stronger because now every hit does not chunk it for 4-5k or more it can actually decide not to break a stun or not evade and just take the hits where as other professions will have more evasive and or block options in many cases on lower cooldowns. > > Again i already addressed the idea of reducing undeath back to 2% and nerfing a few other traits as well before i started replying to your post so im not against justified nerfs and reductions. Thats where we both agree at the end of all this. So please dont talk to me like you are better for the sake of being better or something i think my logic has been pretty fair through all of this. I fully agree with you and your aurguements. I think life regen and damage are both fine on necro. My solution would be to simply increase core necro shroud degeneration to the same level as reaper shroud (5%per second). This won't kill the profession design but will reduce the amount it can shroud camp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stand The Wall.6987 Posted March 1, 2020 Share Posted March 1, 2020 reapers drawback (supposedly) is that shroud degenerates faster... the problem is lf gen, primarily the signet and fear of death. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortrialus.3062 Posted March 1, 2020 Share Posted March 1, 2020 I think you're probably going to see; Faster degeneration of normal Death Shroud, lowering the inherent -50% incoming damage and condi damage from Death Shroud, Lowering Signet of Undeath and Eternal Life's Life Force generation. Probably some other stuff too. Some combination of those sorts of changes. Lich Form almost certainly deserves a damage nerf. But the highest priority is tuning Death Shroud to be more appropriately balanced at this damage level. Necromancer is currently in a position where it if it's threatened it can heal, go into death shroud, and survive for a long long stretch of time, and then once it's death shroud has run out it's healing skill is back up and by the time it's threatened it's regenerated more than enough life force to dip back into shroud again outside of truly insane incoming pressure. It was already strong and balanced pre-patch when everyone was doing 50-100% more damage than they currently are. It reminds me of rework scrapper in terms of creating fights were literally no progress is made and it's just an endless stall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dadnir.5038 Posted March 1, 2020 Share Posted March 1, 2020 > @"James.1065" said: > I think the amount of life gain is good and so is the damage, the problem is the rediculas amount of up time in shroud. > > The solution is to make core necro shroud degenrate at the same rate as reaper shroud or even a little faster. Reaper shroud is 5% per second and feels good - make core shroud the same to prevent lengthy shroud camps and see how that works. > > Why would you even think about using core shroud if it were to degenerate at the same rate or faster than the reaper shroud? Apart from it's energy degen everything on the core shroud is vastly inferior to the reaper shroud. It's obvious that will perform poorly and that players will point out again how poor the core shroud is compared to reaper's shroud. ANet will then be pressured to "buff" the core shroud (which might very well take years for no true results) and you will most likely be amongst the ones saying that core shroud is trash. The shroud (core or reaper) is an imbalanced mechanism by design. It is the main defensive mechanism of the necromancer yet along the years and under the pressure of players like you, he also became the main damage dealing tool of the necromancer (not to mention that it is also close to be the main support tool of the necromancer). The true solution to the current imbalance is to change back the shroud from it's current state of main damaging tool to a mediocre damaging tool alongside tweaks making the out of shroud state the main damaging form. (Something that you won't want to see as the power reaper main that you are) Ideally, traits like _death perception_, _reaper's onslaught_ or _soul barb_ should only give their effect for a duration proportionnal to an amount of LF form consumed when exiting the shroud manually (consuming all remaining LF) with a max duration at 10 seconds. Then you'd truly have a fair trade off between defense and offense on the necromancer which would already start to alleviate the current survivability issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James.1065 Posted March 1, 2020 Share Posted March 1, 2020 > @"Dadnir.5038" said: > > @"James.1065" said: > > I think the amount of life gain is good and so is the damage, the problem is the rediculas amount of up time in shroud. > > > > The solution is to make core necro shroud degenrate at the same rate as reaper shroud or even a little faster. Reaper shroud is 5% per second and feels good - make core shroud the same to prevent lengthy shroud camps and see how that works. > > > > > > Why would you even think about using core shroud if it were to degenerate at the same rate or faster than the reaper shroud? Apart from it's energy degen everything on the core shroud is vastly inferior to the reaper shroud. It's obvious that will perform poorly and that players will point out again how poor the core shroud is compared to reaper's shroud. > > ANet will then be pressured to "buff" the core shroud (which might very well take years for no true results) and you will most likely be amongst the ones saying that core shroud is trash. > > The shroud (core or reaper) is an imbalanced mechanism by design. It is the main defensive mechanism of the necromancer yet along the years and under the pressure of players like you, he also became the main damage dealing tool of the necromancer (not to mention that it is also close to be the main support tool of the necromancer). The true solution to the current imbalance is to change back the shroud from it's current state of main damaging tool to a mediocre damaging tool alongside tweaks making the out of shroud state the main damaging form. (Something that you won't want to see as the power reaper main that you are) > > Ideally, traits like _death perception_, _reaper's onslaught_ or _soul barb_ should only give their effect for a duration proportionnal to an amount of LF form consumed when exiting the shroud manually (consuming all remaining LF) with a max duration at 10 seconds. > > Then you'd truly have a fair trade off between defense and offense on the necromancer which would already start to alleviate the current survivability issue. No that makes no sense. I pretty much stopped reading when you mentioned everything on core shroud is inferior to reapers shroud. If that was true we'd be seeing bunker reapers not core necro. Core is way better at sustain and Condi than reaper that's why it's the meta. To fix this tone down the sustain by increasing the core shroud degeneration. Super easy and won't destroy the core design Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MethaneGas.8357 Posted March 1, 2020 Share Posted March 1, 2020 If they HAD to nerf something, I think all they need to do is nerf Death Magic. It's a proper defensive traitline with good defense against power and condi damage. Necros taking signets (which give huge sustain) would have pretty weak cleanse if they didn't have it from Death Magic, so if shrouded removal takes a hit, this would make signet necros weaker to condis. Or you can lower the toughness gained from carapace, along with potentially lowering the protection output. Lower protection output is also an indirect nerf to Dark Defiance, so with lower protection, the necro would be weaker to both condi and power. And, as you said, lowering the life-force generation from certain sources could be an option. Like Unholy Martyr. Make it give less lifeforce? I honestly think that just a wee shave across a few traits is all that is needed. Together, it would add up without destroying each individual trait. Last point: Signets of Suffering gives you the passive effects of signets in shroud even while your signets are on a cooldown, if I'm not mistaken. So you can use the heal signet right before going into shroud and you get the passive back. Camp shroud and the heal skill is recharged by the time you exit shroud. Rinse and repeat. This is probably a bug and it's amazing, but borderline broken. Maybe all they need to do is nerf this trait, because essentially, you permanently have Signet of Undeath passive while in shroud, and this makes you permanently gain life force in shroud. You also permanently gain health when hit in shroud cuz of the passive from the heal. But.... the problem is pairing a Necro with a FB in a 2v2 because the FB spits out protection and cleanse so even if those things are nerfed, the problem remains. Maybe if FB is nerfed, necros would be indirectly nerfed. Along with a few tweaks and voila, happiness and rainbows all around. But, balancing around 2v2s is not smart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortrialus.3062 Posted March 1, 2020 Share Posted March 1, 2020 > @"Dadnir.5038" said: > > @"James.1065" said: > > I think the amount of life gain is good and so is the damage, the problem is the rediculas amount of up time in shroud. > > > > The solution is to make core necro shroud degenrate at the same rate as reaper shroud or even a little faster. Reaper shroud is 5% per second and feels good - make core shroud the same to prevent lengthy shroud camps and see how that works. > > > > > > Why would you even think about using core shroud if it were to degenerate at the same rate or faster than the reaper shroud? Apart from it's energy degen everything on the core shroud is vastly inferior to the reaper shroud. It's obvious that will perform poorly and that players will point out again how poor the core shroud is compared to reaper's shroud. > > ANet will then be pressured to "buff" the core shroud (which might very well take years for no true results) and you will most likely be amongst the ones saying that core shroud is trash. > > The shroud (core or reaper) is an imbalanced mechanism by design. It is the main defensive mechanism of the necromancer yet along the years and under the pressure of players like you, he also became the main damage dealing tool of the necromancer (not to mention that it is also close to be the main support tool of the necromancer). The true solution to the current imbalance is to change back the shroud from it's current state of main damaging tool to a mediocre damaging tool alongside tweaks making the out of shroud state the main damaging form. (Something that you won't want to see as the power reaper main that you are) > > Ideally, traits like _death perception_, _reaper's onslaught_ or _soul barb_ should only give their effect for a duration proportionnal to an amount of LF form consumed when exiting the shroud manually (consuming all remaining LF) with a max duration at 10 seconds. > > Then you'd truly have a fair trade off between defense and offense on the necromancer which would already start to alleviate the current survivability issue. Even at the same degeneration rate core shroud would usually last longer than Reaper Shroud because Core Shroud is an entirely ranged kit which allows you to kite while retaliating against your opponent while Reaper Shroud requires riskier positioning as it is melee only and thus you are more easily subject to being counter attacked, cleaved, trapped in AoE, and being kited and attacked yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curennos.9307 Posted March 1, 2020 Share Posted March 1, 2020 Hopefully Anet has a clear line between what about necro needs changing, and what about FB needs changing that makes bits of necro look OP. The nec/FB pairing is strong, but I don't want the class murdered for those who run without an FB, or to make the class even more dependant upon a FB babysitter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonidrex.5649 Posted March 2, 2020 Share Posted March 2, 2020 > @"Sarrs.4831" said: > I haven't looked at Lich Form or Moa in a while but > What if you Moa the Lich? > Also I haven't played PvP because my internet's not being kind to me, but where is all the Lich damage coming from? I would think that projectile destruction blunts all, or most, of it. lich has pulsing stab so nuthing, unless you strip it just the moment before using. fun thing is, you can wait untill necro goes off shroud, focus him. when he goes shroud you can moa him to take him out of the shroud! its super effective. small con is that you would have to play fucking mesmer or engi. oh and take moa lul. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonidrex.5649 Posted March 2, 2020 Share Posted March 2, 2020 they need to make shroud generation risk/reward type of deal, + add some off shroud survivability. and reduce ez shroud gain. there is ALOT of shroud gen thats preety much free, you spam 4 marks from staff, boom 12%. you dodge for extra 3%. 15 from fear trait. you have pulsing life force in a way of removing condis, by you pulsing well/spectral walk Marks should give shroud for player HIT not for triggering for example. Life force per condi removed needs to be goners or reworked, so its not passive pulsing perma shroud gen, they should propably touch life steal passives and look into how much then heal when you tag clones/pets/aoe and pulsing wells for massive heals. They can add some stuff in turn to the class PS that trait that generates shroud out of combat should be made baseling. necro should start combat with some shroud, even if its as little as 10%. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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