Make Buffs, Not Nerfs! Or Who Cares Really... The Game Should Be Fun, Not Perfectly Balanced

[Ysmir.4986]

Game is better now than it has ever been tbh. Most nerfs are deserved and serve the purpose of making the game slower.

[Bazsi.2734]

> @"Multicolorhipster.9751" said:

> > @"Bazsi.2734" said:

> > Balance can be made quite objective by increasing sample size from just you to everyone. Statistics. If something is overplayed and still has high winrates, you know what to nerf. Developers have access to proper statistics, they can see if the actual whining on the forums is justified or not.

> >

> > > I get that balance is still and important facet still; in changing up the meta, and in bringing people in like I say. I just think both could still be accomplished via giving rather than taking away.

> >

> > No. This game became so much better after the nerfpatch, and now there are only a few outliers in need of toning down. If we kept buffing everything just because 2-3 builds are overperforming, we'd inflate the powerlevel right past the oneshot meta within 3 patches.

> >

>

> disagree

>

> It's still an opinion and its still subjective. What some people have fun with, others might not. It was said with others in mind to begin with, as I got the idea from that video anyway.

 

This is an accurate assesment, however... Is this an actual argument? Because I can turn this right back at you, and kinda dismiss your suggestion as it's only backed by a subjective opinion. Where does that lead us? And also I didn't watch the video, it's not needed to see why the idea of only ever buffing things will ruin a game.

>

> Even if a class is over-represented with a high winrate, there's still going to be people who actually enjoy playing those builds, and those classes.

 

Many enjoy broken OP builds that ruin the fun for everyone else. When your enjoyment comes at the cost of someone elses, that's bad design and needs to be chanced. Well... according to the game philosophy of this company at least.

 

> Rather than get hyperfocused on statistics and what's perceived to be overpowered; unless it's urgent and seriously game breaking, you could prefer the focus should be on what's under represented, and how to buff those to be level with the meta without creating an overpowered mess that needs hot-fixing.

 

You know, for someone claiming subjective opinions aren't strong enough to make a good case, arguig for throwing out statistics is kind of weird.

>

> Not to mention those stats are usually terribly inaccurate and not representative, especially in a game like this with total build freedom. A lot of people from every skill level play the 'meta' in any game, and more people playing it usually means a fairly even or even below-average winrate for that class.

 

Ah yes, yes. Statistics bad _(Also what the hell do you mean total build freedom, this game is one of the most restrictive in terms of buildcrafting that I ever played)_ . But regardless, if your statistics are inaccurate and not representative, change what you're looking at. It's higly advanced stuff people learn in the 8th grade in the country where I am from, by writing IF and SUM functions in excel tables.

 

 

My point stands: only buffing to balance is a terrible idea. If you only consider 2 builds: A is slightly better then B at the same thing. So lets buff B. If B is overperforming now, buff A. Still arent the same powerlevel? Buff one of them again. After several steps we might reach a state where they are equal with a small margin of error,

Try to do this with ALL ingame builds in mind, and you'll end up with an unending torrent of buffs, powerlevels shooting up to the sky. You know how can you end up not doing that? By CoMBiNiNg bUfFs aNd NeRFs!

 

>

> Balance is and always will be subjective, and at that; I think post-patch is boring and slow overall. :p

>

 

I see many players equipping defensive amulets and traitlines, and pummeling at each other for minutes in the FFA arena, coming to the same verdict. Equip an offensive amulet, make due with 1 defensive traitline instead of 2... adapt!

[White Kitsunee.4620]

Cows go "moo"

Cats go "meow"

PvP players in mmos go the "the pvp is unbalanced"

[Ourasa.7306]

If you want fun, they could just make another mode and add items (Or what this game calls, bundles).

 

Some fun jank would make the game more enjoyable/replayable, especially since you can now blame the item for allowing a person to win, rather than the class they’re using.

 

It’s also a mode that would be easy to expand upon: Just add more items (though they can’t be ludicrously broken of course).

 

Examples:

A light gun that shoots prime light beams, but only has 3 shots, with a 10 seconds cooldown in between.

 

A bomb that creates the biggest explosion you ever seen, but after some time.

 

A golem that counterattacks anyone who attack it with an unblockable launch.

 

Freaking Sohotin, but can only be wielded for 30 seconds.

 

The ideas of what can be added are endless. But it’s definitely a doable thing. Just look at the crab activity.

[Multicolorhipster.9751]

> @"Bazsi.2734" said:

> This is an accurate assesment, however... Is this an actual argument? Because I can turn this right back at you, and kinda dismiss your suggestion as it's only backed by a subjective opinion. Where does that lead us? And also I didn't watch the video, it's not needed to see why the idea of only ever buffing things will ruin a game.

> Many enjoy broken OP builds that ruin the fun for everyone else. When your enjoyment comes at the cost of someone elses, that's bad design and needs to be chanced. Well... according to the game philosophy of this company at least.

>

> > Rather than get hyperfocused on statistics and what's perceived to be overpowered; unless it's urgent and seriously game breaking, you could prefer the focus should be on what's under represented, and how to buff those to be level with the meta without creating an overpowered mess that needs hot-fixing.

>

> You know, for someone claiming subjective opinions aren't strong enough to make a good case, arguig for throwing out statistics is kind of weird.

> >

> > Not to mention those stats are usually terribly inaccurate and not representative, especially in a game like this with total build freedom. A lot of people from every skill level play the 'meta' in any game, and more people playing it usually means a fairly even or even below-average winrate for that class.

>

 

I'm not arguing for anything. I shared a video that suggests that focusing on buffing the weak instead of nerfing the strong because I found it interesting, and it made a lot of sense to me and i've accepted that as my opinion after playing post-patch for about two weeks.

 

I didn't look at anything statistically because i'm not calling out any specific classes like I said in my OP. It's all about the balance philosophy, and balance is subjective. I'm not going to waste time trying to look at it objectively because that would make look like even more of a crybaby, and i'm not crying mind you; it's just been raining on my face.

 

And like I say, even if I did include and argue that Arenanet should balance based on the statistics and winrates; again, those are probably really inaccurate.

I come from a silly game called Paladins, and all the winrates and playtimes of every champion are publicly visible there, so we can what the meta is, and how every champ is doing. The funny thing is; that despite the meta champs having the most playtime, those champs always have some of the lowest, or pretty even winrates. And that's because more people play the meta. If something is perceived to be overpowered; more people play it, which means more people also lose games playing that class/champ because more people are playing it overall.

 

>

> My point stands: only buffing to balance is a terrible idea. If you only consider 2 builds: A is slightly better then B at the same thing. So lets buff B. If B is overperforming now, buff A. Still arent the same powerlevel? Buff one of them again. After several steps we might reach a state where they are equal with a small margin of error,

> Try to do this with ALL ingame builds in mind, and you'll end up with an unending torrent of buffs, powerlevels shooting up to the sky. You know how can you end up not doing that? By CoMBiNiNg bUfFs aNd NeRFs!

 

Totally respect that line of thought. I don't think classes should be **only** buffed to begin with. One major point in the video is how only buffing can break a game. His idea of nerfs, and one I agree with personally is to save nerfs for only examples of the extreme, unfun, totally broken, power crept. Or nerfs that are simply more creative, and only exist as nerfs because it introduces new counterplay to what already exists.

Nerfing down numbers and just straight up reductions/take-aways is; in my opinion, not very creative. Nor does it feel very good.

 

If this sounds interesting, I highly recommend going back and watching the video, but you do you.

 

> >

> > Balance is and always will be subjective, and at that; I think post-patch is boring and slow overall. :p

> >

>

> I see many players equipping defensive amulets and traitlines, and pummeling at each other for minutes in the FFA arena, coming to the same verdict. Equip an offensive amulet, make due with 1 defensive traitline instead of 2... adapt!

 

Isn't building ultra-defensively/bunkery still adaption? ?

 

And @"JusticeRetroHunter.7684" , while i'm here I just want to say I really agree with that idea.

 

Actual new content, reworks, new skills; it all feels more exciting than just logging in to see that the same stuff you'd been playing with had the damage numbers tweaked up or down. When it comes to buffs/nerfs, actual game-changers like goal-tending, and the shot-clock in basketball; those stood out as actually additive buffs/nerfs, usually at once.

 

Goal-tending is a nerf to defensive players because it stops them from camping shots.

The shot-clock is a buff at the same time to defensive players, because it forces the offense to deal with defense.

 

Both were big creative changes that actually added to the sport because it changed how the game was played, and stopped it from devolving into keep-away hot-potato like it almost did in the 40's.

Compare that to our very own big balance patch. Everyone gets CD increases and coefficient decreases. Truly epic, a real game-changer.

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

I still don't understand why people think that buffing weaker stuff to be on par with powercreeped stuff is an answer to all of the world problems, like what?

If you keep buffing stuff over and over again it'll become dumb race and at certain point every skill would be so overloaded with effects and that wouldn't be even funny to play this game anymore.

Now look at this, after latest balance patch that nerfed A LOT of things, there's still a lot of stuff that clearly is much stronger than other available possibilities, which clearly shows how unhealthy the balance was/is after years of using this "buffs good, nerfs bad" mentality.

Your idea of balance would make sense ONLY IF certain things would clearly be underpowered(like whole elite spec would be much weaker than core), which currently is not the case or rather its opposite to it.

This game still needs A LOT of nerfs before you can even start thinking about buffing underpowered thingies...

Imagine this:

A-net releases HoT expansion with new elite specializations which clearly are much weaker than its core. What happens next? People offer their ideas of bringing them to reasonable levels without too much powercreeping them in the process. After few months of actual work on balance e-spec and core would be on equal footing balance-wise. People would be happy that xyz is playable and that they have a choice and that there aren't any uber op broken classes. Win-Win situation.

But what we got instead? A-net released expansions that had elite specializations much stronger than core and most took it for granted "it was released like that, so it was intended to do this stuff and be so overloaded" which was a mistake. After years finally they've decided to tune down this circus a bit and look how many people are salty about it. It was mistake to release broken stuff and not fix it within few months... People got far too used to it.