Odik.4587 Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 "All mesmer mains are delusional, I'm the only one who understand the class they play" - pure definition of being delusional :joy: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killthehealersffs.8940 Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > @"Killthehealersffs.8940" said: > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > @"Killthehealersffs.8940" said: > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > @"Quadox.7834" said: > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > > > > > > @"Quadox.7834" Truth has been spoken. > > > > > > > > sind complained that he bursted protholo for 25% hp and thats it, sad thing is that everyone does about that much dmg and thats it. > > > > > > > > And I guess we can all agree that some of the tanky classes are too strong on sides. Removing dodges/invulnerabilities is cool and all but tbh those are MUCH better then raw HP, healing and damage reduction, if you fail to dodge ( make a mistake ) you get punished, this is how mes/thief works for the most part. > > > > > > > > But there is no punishment to prot holo becouse the raw dmg you have to go through gives them the time to reset and run almost no matter what. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Except of course, other classes hit a whole lot harder. Condi builds, if you can manage to get through their cleanses, will obliterate the prot holo, and as for power builds, while none of them will exactly burst the prot holo down, they will be able to do a good chunk of damage, unlike thief. After all, thieves backstab on a squishy only hits for 6-7k. Other classes hit for far more. > > > > > > 1. Thief has high survivability (hard to punish) and the the highest mobility so it does less damage. > > > > > > 2. Yes, that's why I specificed "power mesmer", because as you are aware, condi damage wasn't really nerfed much in the patch (condi duration was, though). > > > > > > > > > > Thief doesnt really have high survivability. It has high escape ability. Id distinguish the 2, since otherwise AFK builds are the most survivable. Also I was referring to "everyone", in that context. Your post was not the one I replied to. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Next thing I want to talk about is thiefs role, there is absolutely no reason for thief to be the ONLY and THE BEST roamer in the game, in fact there should be at LEAST 3 viable classes on each role ( my opinion ) to make more options possible. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As long as Shortbow 5 exists, that isnt an option. Thief has superior mobility, and wins by default. Problem is, shortbow 5 pretty much *is* thief, so you cant just nerf it. And you cant give other classes the same level of mobility, or thief overnight becomes useless (and they become broken, but I digress). > > > > > > Next thief espec add shield and remove weaponswap, ez solved. > > > > > > > > > > That was a suggestion I made before, yeah. The trouble is, Im not sure it works. Thief would need to gain a *lot* relatively to be a competent duelist. Especially with it losing versatility through the loss of weapon swap (and all sigils that work with it). It would also break the Quick Pockets trait (which granted, noone uses, but that is an actual problem they would need to solve). Its not entirely impossible, but Im not gonna get my hopes up for the next elite spec. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To me its also unacceptable that thief can only fill 1 role, many thiefs want to have dueling spec, I soo NO REASON to not make that happen. Thief is currently too mobile for that to work, sb5, shadowstep, signets etc etc. TO make it work thief is going to have to be forced away from SB and poss even from sword 2, and mb staff needs to be reworked. Almost any weapon thief has, will have some sort of mobility, be it sword 2, vault, hearthseeker, shortbow > > > > > > > 6. There needs to be incentive to not using those skills and in turn beef up the thief and add in some damage. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There is no way to have both options. Either thief has its current superior mobility and the playstyle associated with it, or it becomes an actually competent duelist. Both causes issues. And as Ive said before, as much as I would like a duelist thief, Im not gonna take away the playstyle so many thieves do enjoy from them. Especially given that its more unique and interesting, while duelist would just be another one on the pile. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" > > > > > > > > If I could get a cookie every time you say something while being wrong I would have diabetes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Fascinating, I have never heard of diabetes being caused by complete cookie withdrawal. You might wanna submit that to a medical journal, it would certainly put a new perspective on what we know about that disease. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes because the majority of the population wants more damage on the Backstab and they enjoy the mobility of the class , then Stealth (universaly on all classes) should get a mobility debuff or break on damage/dots . That way the theif will be more a dualist with more front loaded damage + buff his auto attacks to crit for 1200/1200/2400 again + keeping the mobility fo the shortbow > > > > > > Not really? The majority doesnt have much love for backstab one way or the other. Its just the best option currently. Anyway, no Ive already explained why making stealth break on DoT or damage is *the* worst design you could possibly come up with. Like, nothing is as bad as that. > > > > The majority , wants more damage . > > They want their mobility too . > > You said that we redisn thief to a dueler , and whats the better option to do that ? > > We increase the Backstab = restore auto attacks ... and if the target survives/has Tougness gear , he must not let the Thief to restealth and getting Backstab again , using dots on him . You can use off pistol Daze to stop any major enemy spells , thus help you stay on battle/survive more or use any variation of the Daredevil spell that replace dodge with a long distance dodge to avoid crusial close aoes > > More damage =/= more damage on backstab. Sides, those that also want mobility as well as damage are just wishfully thinking. > > Uh, literally *anything* other than what you suggested? I mean frankly no stealth-focused build is going to be a good duelist. The right way is to up thieves survivability and damage in-combat. Mostly stuff like Shadowshot, autoattacks, maybe Larcenating Strike. Or to make stealth in-combat actually usable, and allow thieves to use it to quickly reposition for hard to predict strikes. Wowowow there .. We had a much an informative conversation that Mesmers , uses stealth + his single evade dodge , so he can go in stealth safe and surprice the enemy . Thief's stealth is not limited to 30/40 cd stealth (Decoy-Off hand weapon) , not his Heartseeker has 30 sec cd like Joust (with the samerange travel) You want to tell me those 3 sec stealth are classified as out of combat stealth ? If he accidentally use them in combat , what happens ? He gets a ''new meta chiv unlocked'' ? And what stealth in-combat is not a valid option . You see the victims waste their cd, with using aoes , because he doesnt know if you are evading the attacks or not Becomes weaken , because they wasted those spells in vain trying to hit you You will have the first hit always > then run and then restealth again and regen health (with traits) and restore CDs/Initiative > then do your attack > repeat > this what happens in WvWvW . Its like the S/d evade tactics , with Sword port 2 , where any stealth class can use (even enginner with the Smoke Bomb) Why bothering , telling other that 7-9k on light amor crit is not an absurd and then you turn around and tell me that they should lower its damage ? Are you trying to please me and hear what i want ?:P Or you are going from thread to thread saying different things ? > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > Complaining about Kneel is ironic. The best way to play Deadeye is to *never* kneel and instead just spam rifle 2. Its also funny to complain about its burst given that its burst is rather pathetic, but I digress. https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1203528#Comment_1203528 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lincolnbeard.1735 Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 Power mirage with defensive traitlines deals less than 9k on light golem. Can I have a damage buff too plox? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bravan.3876 Posted April 1, 2020 Share Posted April 1, 2020 Aight i am having some time now and i am bored, lets spam the Thief thread a bit more with Mesmer stuff because we have a new Thief thread open anyway xD > @"viquing.8254" said: > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > @"viquing.8254" said: > > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > > @"viquing.8254" said: > > > > > > > > > It's **exactly the same** currently as powermirage played at max potential : you use sword ambush exactly the same as you would for power mirage. Even the rupt part who is core based btw is used the same in one case to boonrip, in the other case to PB. The only differences gameplay wise is that powermirage can be played at range during no-burst times which is also true for rupt whereas condimirage is all about melee. > > > > > The mobility **is** the mirage defining playstyle which is globally the same condi or power. What make mirage different from core **is** the mobility. > > > > > If you think ambush played at his max potential is all around sword rupt, you are dreaming. A 1.5 sec animation rupt will never be active play. > > > > > > > > No Powermirage is not only about sword ambush interrupts, it is also about comboing with gs and sword ambushes to prepare a burst with self buffs and debuffs of targets from might and/ or vuln stacks and weakness application and ofc you can play active with sword -IH-PB mechanic, just that most Mirages do not rly utilize any of this very well (at max the average Powermirage player spam some gs ambushes but thats it). What probably lies in the circumstances that most ppl (including you) don't even understand the active part of the IH mechanic it seems. Ofc dodge traits always have a passive part included by activating on each dodge, true, means even when the player only wants to dodge pure defensive only for the purpose of dodging an attack it will still activate the dodge reward. That doesn't change the fact, that when you design dodge rewards well, means at best not being about dmg mainly or even only (as it is on condi ambushes atm still) but more about utility effects and not being too strong (what is on condi ambushes still atm) but also not too weak so active and pure offensive dodging is rewarding and NEEDED to play the mechanic at its maximum potential, than it has a very active and high skill ceiling aspect. Anet managed to do that on power weapons (with a little need to reduce gs ambush dmg from the Mirage itself, not from the clones). > > > You know that's exactly how the current meta build is played... > > > An active play on a 1.5 sec animation rupt = luck because the opponent have this period to react. Basically if you do that versus boyce on war the will just stop attacking during this time. > > > > Condi ambushes do not add anything giving the need or incentive to combo them with other skills to make a good burst. That is one big difference between condi and power aside from the interrupt aspect of sword/IH/ PB which ofc also can be used very active. I have seen and met top Mirages using that active and on purpose playing far away from just some lucky random interrupts from clones when only dodging pure defensive on sword or onyl spamming some gs ambushes, so i know i am right. > > > > The problem with current condi ambush design is: no matter how good the player on Condimirage is, the whole ambush design will never give you the possibility at all to use them that active, to make tactical and well timed and different from pure defensive dodges timed outplays with ambushes (ambushes from the Mesmer itself or from clones). It is just a passive spam feast atm (even though it is that overnerfed from the one dodge change atm that Condimirage doesn't even use that mechanic anymore and goes for a mostly passive condi remove EM trait instead to compensate the overnerf in active dodge sustain). > > > Sword ambush are exaclty the same condi or power wise, they stack vuln exactly the same and they proc their rupt trait exactly the same way. > > > Axe ambush are less efficients than GS ambush, that's the only difference. > > > > My balance suggestion for Condi ambushes would change that, so good Mirage players will get way more reward out of using ambushes/ IH active and tactial well timed than a bad Mirage onyl lucky hit a clone ambush reward in a good moment as a passive side effect from pure defensive dodges, as it is on Condimirage still. You don't have this distinction in skill lvl between a good and a bad player on Condimirage atm. All the skill ceiling the current Condibuild has is based on core combos and avoiding Mirage specific playstyle as much as possible (aside from axe and mobility, cc from sword ambush). Using IH with current condi ambush design would still be passive and op as before because the one dodge change did not solve any issues of that mechanic. > > > the current condibuild gameplay difference from a power version is the pewpew GS from range part. > > > > And no mobility is not the only Mirage aspect that would be a pretty poor spec design but that view probably is linked into the lack of understanding the active part of IH/ ambushes on power vs passivity on condi you don't get. Ambsuhes are supposed to play an active and important role in terms of differ the gameplay form core and even more they are important to activate the inherent costs and the opportunity costs in dodge management, what is needed to limit and balance out the strong MC feature. One reason why i said IH should be baseline (a minor trait i mean), because without that Mirage is just a core Mesmer with some passive noobcarry stuff and a way too strong instant dodge added. > > > It is. Since PoF release, the only ambush that is different from pure damage is sword which give **mobility**. GS ambush were just usefull in mindless spam from range as at melee, the classic F3 before bursting give already the vuln stacks. It's been long time now that IH is just used to give illusions survival tools. > > > > Anyway i made a long post about the active-passive continuum with lot of examples. 2 different ones for you already even. If you still don't understand after reading those 2, then i don't know what to do. If this doesn't help we rly can only agree to disagree here. > > > Maybe you should start to stop living in a unicorn world where a 1.5 sec unreliable rupt is looked at something "skilled". Or play more condi and power mirage I don't know. > > > > > > > That something has counerplay doesn't limit skill ceiling it highers it. That your opponent has the time to react to your dodge and the clone leap or your own leap doesn't make it random. That is exactly the reason it is a skilled and fair mechanic. Also you still get value from the leap, not by triggering the interrupt trait PB but by delaying the planned skill use, the planned tactical move of your opponent for at least 4 seconds. That is active mind gaming on both sides and totally skilled. Ofc the sword leap from clones and Mesmer are not a good interrupt tool when staying alone, i mentioned myself often enough that you need an instant interrupt tool for rly reactive on purpose interrupts on fast casted keyskills (something like MOD), that is the reason why an interrupt Powermirage runs MoD in addition and not only use sword leaps, gs5 and offhand cc from either torch, focus, pistol or sword. But it is not impossible to interrupt on purpose and active with the leap. You just have to predict more and use it well timed in specific situations (just one example for a specific situation: when you cannot reach a target with MoD behind a wall trying to cover the heal with los. But you have a sword clone near him, so you dodge without any pressure on you to make the clone leap behind the wall and prevent the heal cast until you can reach the wall yourself and continue pressure on the target or when getting an interrupt can calm down a bit and know you have now 15 sec to kill the target without his heal available). You also can chain cc to prevent predicted action (heal use or on your new beloved condi build condicleanse use) you don't want to happen at a specific time (just what the current Condibuild does, it just daze chain to prevent heal/condiremove use without the incentive or need to interrupt anything after the burst just until the target is dead, you prevent the cast start straight). Seriously sometimes i feel like there is an insane lack of understanding and knowledge about simple fight tactics and how valueable specific tactical moves are. Just like the UNOsomething guy cannot be convinced that Swiping into a block is rewarding... No clue if doing martial arts is just helping me here... but some stuff is simple logic and brain use tbh. > > > > As said in the end it is not my problem when most Mesmer mains cannot play their elite specs on maxixmum potential and deny obvious active usage of the spec. A good powershatter Mesmer player will still be a decent Powermirage (on some Powermirage builds providing simple gs ambush spam supported by AI maybe even a good Powermirage) but not a top lvl Powermirage, that is the point. Simple fact. I know why i suck on Powermirage, in particular the interrupt build, while i could play old Condimirage with no issues and why i didn't suck on a Chaoline PU stealthspam oneshot build (while i still suck more on any gs power build than condi build) or an Inspiration signet spam Powershatter build either (even though last mentioned build was even uneless pretty much but i stayed alive at least). > > 1) The interrupt part is the same condi or direct damage, it's even more skilled on condi as you have to double F3 with SoIl and you can't rupt at range, placements are even more important. The sword chain CC is the same. First no, the interupt part for condi is not the same than for power, your (or better Mishas) build doesn't even need to interrupt. Simple cc spam is enough for trait reward (in this case boon rip). But also for the purpose of preventing a heal or condi remove cast after the condi burst until the target is down, you do that with simple cc chain spam during a pretty rigid/sticky roation and not with well timed reactive interrupts. That completely neuralize the " more skilled effect" you want to give for being more melee (what only counts for the axe autoattack and axe ambush compared to gs autoattack and ambush anyway.). You can't rupt from range is not totally true ( you only can't rupt INSTANT from range), you can use f3 when clones are near but the Mesmer itself is in range and you also have ranged pistol and torch cc, aside from the fact that the condi build doesn't even need to interrupt what makes it totally irrelevant that it cannot interrupt from range instant without MoD. > > >just one example for a specific situation: when you cannot reach a target with MoD behind a wall trying to cover the heal with los. But you have a sword clone near him, so you dodge without any pressure on you to make the clone leap behind the wall and prevent the heal cast until you can reach the wall yourself and continue pressure on the target or when getting an interrupt can calm down a bit and know you have now 15 sec to kill the target without his heal available). > That's why I say you live in a uncorn life, did you know the life duration of a sword clone in real situation ? > Reality is that sword clone life duration is around max 2 sec **and** his rupt fail ~half time if the opponent is moving or dropping aoe. But I imagine that the godlike rainbow anticipator mesmer has anticipate this and pop 2 swords clones in each direction behind the wall between 2 aoe to prevent this. > So yeah you are logic in your reasonnement, you just miss half parameters. Yeah no. What class can cast the heal and aoe at the same time (i only know one instant heal and that is Healmantra from Mesmer)? So where is your logic when you cannot even imagine the described fight situation correct? First of all that the clone leap interrupt has counterplay (like that you have a very little window to cleave the clone before the daze hits, what is not possible during casting the heal in most cases but that was the example btw and also that you can outmove the leap) doesn't make it passive and doesn't make it impossible. Funny thing is that you now say the completely opposite to Odik who will tell me that random clone interrupts from pure defensive dodges are so broken and have no counterplay. Anyway i gave you that example (a play i literally have seen more than one time, means i am proven right by reality, i didn't just create an artifical fight situation by pure imagination) to make you understand the active and skillful part of IH/ ambushes on power builds. Also do you know your clones dodge for more than half of the leap duration, in melee 3/4 of it? Often they do not get cleaved and can hit the leap, that is reality and that is the reason they got the dodge ability added from Anet in the first place (they might bug sometimes but that is not intended and do not disprove my arguments about the active and skillful gameplay options you have on power but not on condi from Mirage IH mechanic). Also outplays with several clones hitting f3 dazes delayed are proven possible, i told you were you can watch them even (2v2 and 5v5 footage). Denying simple facts will not help you here. Clones hit their daze often enough, Clone survive often long enough for a delayed f3 daze chain with several clones, in particular when you play it well with good clone positioning and/ or timed dodges to hold them alive. No clue how you manage to make all your sword clones miss their ambush attack or make them die before being able to hit, must be some hidden talent. > > >15 sec to kill the target without his heal available > It work pretty well on nec, apart this class, everyone has other temporisation tools and will not care about this, they will just rotate to the next tempo skill. Ok while ppl cry about how deadly a PB proc on heal is for all classes (what is fine, it is a skillful play it should be rewarded), your opinion is that all classes are just that op and overloaded with other defensive tools that a heal interrupt is meanignless for them. Yes that is exactly the same lvl of lack in tactical understanding from UNOsomething denying that swiping into blocks is useful. Nothing to add here. Thx for proving me right, you are clueless. > @"viquing.8254" said: > Solllusion should conserve the F4 reset as long as there is one dodge because all current mirage survival is based on this. **Dunno why you think mirage has synergy with it, it's not different from core synergy.** You serious??? :scream: I mean, seeing that is even easier than seeing the active and skillful part of IH/ ambushes on power and the 100% passivity on condi ambushes compared to that and you still don't get it? If you would be a newbie to the game and the class i maybe would not be surprised that you don't know it and can't see it by yourself but that rly is just the ultimate prove that Mesmer mains can be clueless as hell. And you are not even just some average random pleb, at least you claim that you do a lot to improve and that you are high skilled. Just as wrong as saying that sword is the only weapon on Mirage not about pure dmg. Gs is neither about pure dmg. Btw (also @"Odik.4587") I didn't know you need to be a Mesmer MAIN to be able and to be allowed to understand and explain stuff about Mesmer, but i guess from a PoV of a Mesmer main still missing some simple basics about his elite specs you have to think that... How can a multiclasser (even when including Mesmer play since game release just as watching Mesmer streams and youtube footage and guides since game release) know more or understand better than a Mesmer main? Viquing just proved very spectacular that this is possible. I am not saying i know all and some stuff some of you might know better than me but then i would just admit and would be happy to learn something new from you and understand something better now (i don't care about being right at any cost). But in this Mirage topic i am simply right, 100% correct. In terms of the active and passive lvl from power and condi IH/ ambush mechanic you both clearly miss something fundamental. What is shocking because of how obvious and logical it is and in terms of how detailed and often i already expained it in different ways with different examples. If you can't and will not understand and even deny and for that not utilize the active and high skill ceiling part of IH/ ambushe on power (aside from the passive part it also has from being a dodge trait, true) then it is your decision to play Powermirage not even near its maximum potential. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
viquing.8254 Posted April 1, 2020 Share Posted April 1, 2020 > @"bravan.3876" said: > Aight i am having some time now and i am bored, lets spam the Thief thread a bit more with Mesmer stuff because we have a new Thief thread open anyway xD > > > @"viquing.8254" said: > > 1) The interrupt part is the same condi or direct damage, it's even more skilled on condi as you have to double F3 with SoIl and you can't rupt at range, placements are even more important. The sword chain CC is the same. > > First no, the interupt part for condi is not the same than for power, your (or better Mishas) build doesn't even need to interrupt. Simple cc spam is enough for trait reward (in this case boon rip). But also for the purpose of preventing a heal or condi remove cast after the condi burst until the target is down, you do that with simple cc chain spam during a pretty rigid/sticky roation and not with well timed reactive interrupts. That completely neuralize the " more skilled effect" you want to give for being more melee (what only counts for the axe autoattack and axe ambush compared to gs autoattack and ambush anyway.). You can't rupt from range is not totally true ( you only can't rupt INSTANT from range), you can use f3 when clones are near but the Mesmer itself is in range and you also have ranged pistol and torch cc, aside from the fact that the condi build doesn't even need to interrupt what makes it totally irrelevant that it cannot interrupt from range instant without MoD. > > That's why I say you live in a uncorn life, did you know the life duration of a sword clone in real situation ? > > Reality is that sword clone life duration is around max 2 sec **and** his rupt fail ~half time if the opponent is moving or dropping aoe. But I imagine that the godlike rainbow anticipator mesmer has anticipate this and pop 2 swords clones in each direction behind the wall between 2 aoe to prevent this. > > So yeah you are logic in your reasonnement, you just miss half parameters. > > Yeah no. What class can cast the heal and aoe at the same time (i only know one instant heal and that is Healmantra from Mesmer)? So where is your logic when you cannot even imagine the described fight situation correct? First of all that the clone leap interrupt has counterplay (like that you have a very little window to cleave the clone before the daze hits, what is not possible during casting the heal in most cases but that was the example btw and also that you can outmove the leap) doesn't make it passive and doesn't make it impossible. Funny thing is that you now say the completely opposite to Odik who will tell me that random clone interrupts from pure defensive dodges are so broken and have no counterplay. Anyway i gave you that example (a play i literally have seen more than one time, means i am proven right by reality, i didn't just create an artifical fight situation by pure imagination) to make you understand the active and skillful part of IH/ ambushes on power builds. Also do you know your clones dodge for more than half of the leap duration, in melee 3/4 of it? Often they do not get cleaved and can hit the leap, that is reality and that is the reason they got the dodge ability added from Anet in the first place (they might bug sometimes but that is not intended and do not disprove my arguments about the active and skillful gameplay options you have on power but not on condi from Mirage IH mechanic). Also outplays with several clones hitting f3 dazes delayed are proven possible, i told you were you can watch them even (2v2 and 5v5 footage). Denying simple facts will not help you here. Clones hit their daze often enough, Clone survive often long enough for a delayed f3 daze chain with several clones, in particular when you play it well with good clone positioning and/ or timed dodges to hold them alive. No clue how you manage to make all your sword clones miss their ambush attack or make them die before being able to hit, must be some hidden talent. > > It work pretty well on nec, apart this class, everyone has other temporisation tools and will not care about this, they will just rotate to the next tempo skill. > > Ok while ppl cry about how deadly a PB proc on heal is for all classes (what is fine, it is a skillful play it should be rewarded), your opinion is that all classes are just that op and overloaded with other defensive tools that a heal interrupt is meanignless for them. Yes that is exactly the same lvl of lack in tactical understanding from UNOsomething denying that swiping into blocks is useful. Nothing to add here. Thx for proving me right, you are clueless. > > > @"viquing.8254" said: > > > Solllusion should conserve the F4 reset as long as there is one dodge because all current mirage survival is based on this. **Dunno why you think mirage has synergy with it, it's not different from core synergy.** > > You serious??? :scream: I mean, seeing that is even easier than seeing the active and skillful part of IH/ ambushes on power and the 100% passivity on condi ambushes compared to that and you still don't get it? If you would be a newbie to the game and the class i maybe would not be surprised that you don't know it and can't see it by yourself but that rly is just the ultimate prove that Mesmer mains can be clueless as hell. And you are not even just some average random pleb, at least you claim that you do a lot to improve and that you are high skilled. Just as wrong as saying that sword is the only weapon on Mirage not about pure dmg. Gs is neither about pure dmg. > > Btw (also @"Odik.4587") I didn't know you need to be a Mesmer MAIN to be able and to be allowed to understand and explain stuff about Mesmer, but i guess from a PoV of a Mesmer main still missing some simple basics about his elite specs you have to think that... How can a multiclasser (even when including Mesmer play since game release just as watching Mesmer streams and youtube footage and guides since game release) know more or understand better than a Mesmer main? Viquing just proved very spectacular that this is possible. I am not saying i know all and some stuff some of you might know better than me but then i would just admit and would be happy to learn something new from you and understand something better now (i don't care about being right at any cost). But in this Mirage topic i am simply right, 100% correct. In terms of the active and passive lvl from power and condi IH/ ambush mechanic you both clearly miss something fundamental. What is shocking because of how obvious and logical it is and in terms of how detailed and often i already expained it in different ways with different examples. If you can't and will not understand and even deny and for that not utilize the active and high skill ceiling part of IH/ ambushe on power (aside from the passive part it also has from being a dodge trait, true) then it is your decision to play Powermirage not even near its maximum potential. Yeah sure, you don't need to rupt key skill at all.... You really think CC spam will put enough pressure ? You have to rupt key skill basically nec heal and as they don't go on a 15 sec CD like with PB you even have to rupt it 2 times. And you can't do it instant at range. Every semi-brained player will no cast a key skill with no cover, necro usually drop a fear aoe before healing, other class will drop damaging aoe or teleport away for example so no, you can't rely on a ambush clone near to rupt, particulary considering a clone near an opponent die in a blink. About your use case you imagine that you have to predict that a class will heal about 3 sec in advance ? Are you a medium ? Your use case happen less than 20% in real life, most classe are too mobile to get ancitipated rupt like this, other will cover it. You can't take all aligned moon as references because you see it on a montage one day. What is difficult to understand ? You are in a pure paper theory. To be more explicit : yeah in theory it's possible to do this, in practise it always failed 80% of the time even if you are the best mesmer in this game. Or give me prove before saying I'm a noob wherease ghost mesmers play better. About heal rupt you didn't give me example of class apart nec who can be shutdown with heal rupt, like always you live in paper world. But yeah you rupt all <= 0.5 sec heal cast and on top of that you counter all other temporisation they will use if you rupt their heal like teleport/blocs and so on. Thx proving me you live in a perfect world with rainbow and unicorns everywhere. About SoIl : you didn't give single explication about why it synergize better with mirage ? Are you seriously talking about the passive auto-proc ? Ho I forgot on top of having god position, 5 sec anticipation, you also count every 10 sec proc to anticipate the next to ambush, my bad. Even with that, you know that you will use this proc to shatter on non-mirage builds the same way you will use it to ambush ? Yeah you are 100% right like always, nobody know how this game work. We have to wonder why you aren't the best player in this game currently. (Ho it's because best players didn"t play I forgot that.) They day your ego will explode, it will hurt, be carefull. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonidrex.5649 Posted April 1, 2020 Share Posted April 1, 2020 @"bravan.3876" all im gonna say is that power ambushes are MORE passive then condi ones. The ONLY reason why condi is/was better then power was becouse condi was safer, NO OTHER REASON. 1 You use chaos line so you dont get omegagibbed by thiefs 2 You hold onto clones so its easier to 3clone F4 shatter. 3 GS has no defence on it and every condi weapon used has. GS ambush is MORE passive then any other condi ambush 1 You dont have to worry about who the clones aim at, it splits to ALL targets 2 It doesnt get reflected 3 Its insta 4 Its long range. Compare it to staff 1 Long cast time 2 Can be reflected 3 Clones have to actually target right person 4 Its technically long range but in reality you have to be close range or they miss. Or axe. 1 They snap to closes targets, if for example ranger holds W key all clones will always hit their pet that is behind 2 Its melee, so by the time clones walk up in range their window to ambush is over 3 They are melee so they die lol And this is just off the top of my head. Power ambushes are more braindead then condi, the only difference is that condi doesnt get insta killed like power does so people get upset. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
viquing.8254 Posted April 1, 2020 Share Posted April 1, 2020 > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > @"bravan.3876" > all im gonna say is that power ambushes are MORE passive then condi ones. > The ONLY reason why condi is/was better then power was becouse condi was safer, NO OTHER REASON. > 1 You use chaos line so you dont get omegagibbed by thiefs > 2 You hold onto clones so its easier to 3clone F4 shatter. > 3 GS has no defence on it and every condi weapon used has. > GS ambush is MORE passive then any other condi ambush > 1 You dont have to worry about who the clones aim at, it splits to ALL targets > 2 It doesnt get reflected > 3 Its insta > 4 Its long range. > Compare it to staff > 1 Long cast time > 2 Can be reflected > 3 Clones have to actually target right person > 4 Its technically long range but in reality you have to be close range or they miss. > Or axe. > 1 They snap to closes targets, if for example ranger holds W key all clones will always hit their pet that is behind > 2 Its melee, so by the time clones walk up in range their window to ambush is over > 3 They are melee so they die lol > And this is just off the top of my head. > Power ambushes are more braindead then condi, the only difference is that condi doesnt get insta killed like power does so people get upset. Wait are you saying people shout that powermes is skilled because they can kill it easily ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lincolnbeard.1735 Posted April 1, 2020 Share Posted April 1, 2020 Still with the interrupt talk? You can't interrupt anything on purpose with a 3/4 activation time skill, unless the cast time of the skill you're trying to rupt is 1,25sec+. Mirage thrust is not an interrupt skill, it can rupt sure but it's not an interrupt. Interrupt skills need to be instant or 1/4, that's why MoD has no cast time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonidrex.5649 Posted April 1, 2020 Share Posted April 1, 2020 @"viquing.8254" yes :D I mean people that play power mirage know why its hard as fuck. People that dont play power mirage think its hard becouse they can kill it for free Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bravan.3876 Posted April 1, 2020 Share Posted April 1, 2020 > @"viquing.8254" said: > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > Aight i am having some time now and i am bored, lets spam the Thief thread a bit more with Mesmer stuff because we have a new Thief thread open anyway xD > > > > > @"viquing.8254" said: > > > 1) The interrupt part is the same condi or direct damage, it's even more skilled on condi as you have to double F3 with SoIl and you can't rupt at range, placements are even more important. The sword chain CC is the same. > > > > First no, the interupt part for condi is not the same than for power, your (or better Mishas) build doesn't even need to interrupt. Simple cc spam is enough for trait reward (in this case boon rip). But also for the purpose of preventing a heal or condi remove cast after the condi burst until the target is down, you do that with simple cc chain spam during a pretty rigid/sticky roation and not with well timed reactive interrupts. That completely neuralize the " more skilled effect" you want to give for being more melee (what only counts for the axe autoattack and axe ambush compared to gs autoattack and ambush anyway.). You can't rupt from range is not totally true ( you only can't rupt INSTANT from range), you can use f3 when clones are near but the Mesmer itself is in range and you also have ranged pistol and torch cc, aside from the fact that the condi build doesn't even need to interrupt what makes it totally irrelevant that it cannot interrupt from range instant without MoD. > > > That's why I say you live in a uncorn life, did you know the life duration of a sword clone in real situation ? > > > Reality is that sword clone life duration is around max 2 sec **and** his rupt fail ~half time if the opponent is moving or dropping aoe. But I imagine that the godlike rainbow anticipator mesmer has anticipate this and pop 2 swords clones in each direction behind the wall between 2 aoe to prevent this. > > > So yeah you are logic in your reasonnement, you just miss half parameters. > > > > Yeah no. What class can cast the heal and aoe at the same time (i only know one instant heal and that is Healmantra from Mesmer)? So where is your logic when you cannot even imagine the described fight situation correct? First of all that the clone leap interrupt has counterplay (like that you have a very little window to cleave the clone before the daze hits, what is not possible during casting the heal in most cases but that was the example btw and also that you can outmove the leap) doesn't make it passive and doesn't make it impossible. Funny thing is that you now say the completely opposite to Odik who will tell me that random clone interrupts from pure defensive dodges are so broken and have no counterplay. Anyway i gave you that example (a play i literally have seen more than one time, means i am proven right by reality, i didn't just create an artifical fight situation by pure imagination) to make you understand the active and skillful part of IH/ ambushes on power builds. Also do you know your clones dodge for more than half of the leap duration, in melee 3/4 of it? Often they do not get cleaved and can hit the leap, that is reality and that is the reason they got the dodge ability added from Anet in the first place (they might bug sometimes but that is not intended and do not disprove my arguments about the active and skillful gameplay options you have on power but not on condi from Mirage IH mechanic). Also outplays with several clones hitting f3 dazes delayed are proven possible, i told you were you can watch them even (2v2 and 5v5 footage). Denying simple facts will not help you here. Clones hit their daze often enough, Clone survive often long enough for a delayed f3 daze chain with several clones, in particular when you play it well with good clone positioning and/ or timed dodges to hold them alive. No clue how you manage to make all your sword clones miss their ambush attack or make them die before being able to hit, must be some hidden talent. > > > > > It work pretty well on nec, apart this class, everyone has other temporisation tools and will not care about this, they will just rotate to the next tempo skill. > > > > Ok while ppl cry about how deadly a PB proc on heal is for all classes (what is fine, it is a skillful play it should be rewarded), your opinion is that all classes are just that op and overloaded with other defensive tools that a heal interrupt is meanignless for them. Yes that is exactly the same lvl of lack in tactical understanding from UNOsomething denying that swiping into blocks is useful. Nothing to add here. Thx for proving me right, you are clueless. > > > > > @"viquing.8254" said: > > > > > Solllusion should conserve the F4 reset as long as there is one dodge because all current mirage survival is based on this. **Dunno why you think mirage has synergy with it, it's not different from core synergy.** > > > > You serious??? :scream: I mean, seeing that is even easier than seeing the active and skillful part of IH/ ambushes on power and the 100% passivity on condi ambushes compared to that and you still don't get it? If you would be a newbie to the game and the class i maybe would not be surprised that you don't know it and can't see it by yourself but that rly is just the ultimate prove that Mesmer mains can be clueless as hell. And you are not even just some average random pleb, at least you claim that you do a lot to improve and that you are high skilled. Just as wrong as saying that sword is the only weapon on Mirage not about pure dmg. Gs is neither about pure dmg. > > > > Btw (also @"Odik.4587") I didn't know you need to be a Mesmer MAIN to be able and to be allowed to understand and explain stuff about Mesmer, but i guess from a PoV of a Mesmer main still missing some simple basics about his elite specs you have to think that... How can a multiclasser (even when including Mesmer play since game release just as watching Mesmer streams and youtube footage and guides since game release) know more or understand better than a Mesmer main? Viquing just proved very spectacular that this is possible. I am not saying i know all and some stuff some of you might know better than me but then i would just admit and would be happy to learn something new from you and understand something better now (i don't care about being right at any cost). But in this Mirage topic i am simply right, 100% correct. In terms of the active and passive lvl from power and condi IH/ ambush mechanic you both clearly miss something fundamental. What is shocking because of how obvious and logical it is and in terms of how detailed and often i already expained it in different ways with different examples. If you can't and will not understand and even deny and for that not utilize the active and high skill ceiling part of IH/ ambushe on power (aside from the passive part it also has from being a dodge trait, true) then it is your decision to play Powermirage not even near its maximum potential. > > Yeah sure, you don't need to rupt key skill at all.... > You really think CC spam will put enough pressure ? > You have to rupt key skill basically nec heal and as they don't go on a 15 sec CD like with PB you even have to rupt it 2 times. And you can't do it instant at range. > > Every semi-brained player will no cast a key skill with no cover, necro usually drop a fear aoe before healing, other class will drop damaging aoe or teleport away for example so no, you can't rely on a ambush clone near to rupt, particulary considering a clone near an opponent die in a blink. > > About your use case you imagine that you have to predict that a class will heal about 3 sec in advance ? Are you a medium ? > Your use case happen less than 20% in real life, most classe are too mobile to get ancitipated rupt like this, other will cover it. > You can't take all aligned moon as references because you see it on a montage one day. What is difficult to understand ? > You are in a pure paper theory. > To be more explicit : yeah in theory it's possible to do this, in practise it always failed 80% of the time even if you are the best mesmer in this game. Or give me prove before saying I'm a noob wherease ghost mesmers play better. > > About heal rupt you didn't give me example of class apart nec who can be shutdown with heal rupt, like always you live in paper world. But yeah you rupt all <= 0.5 sec heal cast and on top of that you counter all other temporisation they will use if you rupt their heal like teleport/blocs and so on. Thx proving me you live in a perfect world with rainbow and unicorns everywhere. > > About SoIl : you didn't give single explication about why it synergize better with mirage ? Are you seriously talking about the passive auto-proc ? > Ho I forgot on top of having god position, 5 sec anticipation, you also count every 10 sec proc to anticipate the next to ambush, my bad. > Even with that, you know that you will use this proc to shatter on non-mirage builds the same way you will use it to ambush ? > > Yeah you are 100% right like always, nobody know how this game work. > We have to wonder why you aren't the best player in this game currently. (Ho it's because best players didn"t play I forgot that.) > They day your ego will explode, it will hurt, be carefull. > > > > > I didn't say you don't need to prevent keyskill cast and ofc you also sometimes interrupt stuff on purpose but in coorinated 5v5 play you mostly just condiburst together with the other roamers and then daze chain until the target is down. Or you just use the daze for boonrip, also without care for an actual interupt. I only mentioned that because you like to talk about reality, instead of logical but theoretical analysis of mechanics. The condi burst build kills fast when it can hit the burst and in that moment you don't care for interrupts at all you just prevent any cast like heal or condi remove proactive would make your target survive, most Condimirages do not interrrupt most time at all, they just daze chain at a good moment to prevent resustain, what is ofc also a skilled play. But the condi build simply is not an interrupt build, it can and in some situations also need to interrupt but that doesn't turn it into an interrupt build. The GM trait boonrip doesn't even require an interrupt at all. And (@"Leonidrex.5649" and others) when ppl rly come and say power amsbushes are more passive then i am done here. That is too much ignorance of every logical analysis and of every obviousness. Defining gs ambush as passive because it is no single target projectile is like... holy kitten you guys have no clue what you are talking about, you compare apples with oranges. Talking about totally different things have nothing to do with each other. It is like me define heaven and say it is what you want to go to because ... and ppl come and say ground/ earth is more useful because you can stand on it. Like what? Completely crazy. Feels like trying to talk about higher mathematics with a 2yo. Sry i rly cannot argue with ppl don't even get the basics of scientific thinking, typing, definitions and logical deductions. Feels more like all the Mesmer mains without enough skill to make Powermes work even pre patch with 2 dodges try to talk it down and give old Condimirage too much credit. But Leonidrex was one of the ppl calling the reflect on dodge trait rdm but say it is no problem that it has an ICD, while completely missing that the ICD is exactly the reason the dodgetrait feels random and passive and not not only 70% (without ICD) but 100% passive (with ICD) and nothing you can tactially work with as Mesmer or opponent at all. Why i am even surprised... ppl don't get the basics about active and passive definitions and natures of skills aside from you either need to press a button or not and even based on that minimum and simplified definition they still do wrong logical deductions. It is like starting with a wrong basic premise and then go the wrong logical way from there... like wrong wrong. I am out, believe what you want to believe, in the end it holds you back from improving in utilizing Mirage mechanics on power, not me. > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said: > Still with the interrupt talk? No, the question about how active or passive different ambushes from clones are has barely to do with the interrupt ability, that is just a little part of it. Fact is you CAN and NEED active and tactically on purpose uses of power ambushes (incl the clone ambushes) differently timed from pure defensive dodges on Powermirage. You CAN and NEED to do active, tactical on purpose outplays (like an real interrupt from a clone leap, what is possible or a simple clone leap to make the opponent stow or delay the cast-start when you don't want him to start that cast at a specific moment would be bad for the Mesmer, so the sword leap ofc is not only about actually interrupting, it is also cc gameplay to control when an opponent is allowed to cast specific skills) or combos with ambushes together with other skills for a bigger burst with other skills together or after (selfbuff and target debuff at specific moments to prepare a shatter burst with sword or gs or defensive use of sword for weakness application when the Mesmer is pressured). While on a Condimirage build using IH the ambush mechanic doesn't give any reward or incentive to work with clone ambushes active aside from just pure defensive dodging for some 100% passive clone dmg on ambushes and from normal clone autoattacks. On Condimirage you cannot see any difference in playerskill between 2 players, one very good and one clearly worse, in terms of how they utilize mirage mechanics, because on condi IH build it is literally a missplay to dodge offensive only for the clone dmg, simply because it is not needed to do it. So you better wait for a good reason to dodge defensive (for yourself or your clones) and just hope your clones hit their projectile dmg then. Means the whole mechanic is completely passive with IH on Condi because the ambush design doesn't reward active play, even more it turns active clone ambush timing outside of pure defensive dodges into a missplay. It is even a waste on Condimirage to dodge pure offensive aside from a situation you can just finsish your target with an offensive dodge, so you are sure you don't need any defensive dodge anymore after. That is the relevant difference between power ambushes which include the ABILITY and the NEED to dodge pure offensive at well timed moments for different purposes than just avoiding attacks vs only dodging pure defensive for 100% passive clone dmg. It has nothing to do with how much counterplay the ambushes themself have from their designed as projectile or non projectile or if they are single target or aoe. Projectile/ non projectile + single dmg/ aoe is only relevant for the question how usefulness soemthign is and what their counterplay is and and simply about different orientations as single target vs aoe, it has nothing to do with how active or passive the IH/ambush mechanic itself is. Or is every Thief skill more passive when it only hits one target instead aoe, and is shortbow a mostly passive weapon because most skills are projectiles? No! These are different things and have nothing to do with the question how active or passive something is. There is enough footage of good Powermirages clearly using the mechanic very active and on that lvl (when utilized on purpose that well) it has mabye a 20-30% passive part (because ofc the dodgtrait reward also procs on pure defensive dodges when the player doesn't go for a clone ambush reward on purpose). If you as a Mesmer main don't see it and don't use that active what is needed on Powermriage to play it on maximum potential (to maximize dmg and to have more tools for active offensive and defensive outplay moves) then you simply don't play it on maximum potantial. And a Powermirage onyl relying on some passive random clone ambush rewards while doing the mistake to only dodge defensive on power than every Mirage plays it that skillful and active will rekt you in mirror build duels. (ofc all is based on a Powermirage with 2 dodges, because with only one dodge available, the ressources to make those acitve outplay moves with pure offensive dodges are nearly impossible: That is the reason why the one dodge change double dumbs down the Mirage spec as a whole, first by making the general dodgemanagement more spammy on cd and contraticts a gamewide mechanic of skillful and not spammy dodge management with at least 2 dodges available and second because Mirages now cannot do active outplay moves with pure offensive dodges anymore most of the time, without being a freekill after). If you read how i would rework condi ambushes to give them the same part of activity and higher skill ceiling as power ambsuhes already have you might understand better. >> @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said: >> You can't interrupt anything on purpose with a 3/4 activation time skill, unless the cast time of the skill you're trying to rupt is 1,25sec+. >> Mirage thrust is not an interrupt skill, it can rupt sure but it's not an interrupt. >> Interrupt skills need to be instant or 1/4, that's why MoD has no cast time. >> @"bravan.3876" said: >> That something has counerplay doesn't limit skill ceiling it highers it. That your opponent has the time to react to your dodge and the clone leap/daze or your own leap doesn't make it random or passive. That is exactly the reason it is a skilled and fair mechanic. Also you still get value from the leap, not by triggering the interrupt trait PB but by delaying the planned skill use, the planned tactical move of your opponent for at least 4 seconds. That is active mind gaming on both sides and totally skilled and active. Ofc the sword leap from clones and Mesmer are not a good interrupt tool when staying alone, i mentioned myself often enough that you need an instant interrupt tool for rly reactive on purpose interrupts on fast casted keyskills (something like MoD), that is the reason why an interrupt Powermirage runs MoD in addition and not only use sword leaps, gs5 and offhand cc from either torch, focus, pistol or sword. But it is not impossible to interrupt on purpose and active with the leap. You just have to predict more and use it well timed in specific situations (just one example for a specific situation: when you cannot reach a target with MoD behind a wall trying to cover the heal with los. But you have a sword clone near him, so you dodge without any pressure on you to make the clone leap behind the wall and prevent the heal cast until you can reach the wall yourself and continue pressure on the target or when getting an interrupt can calm down a bit and know you have now 15 sec to kill the target without his heal available). You also can chain cc to prevent predicted action (heal use or on your new beloved condi build condicleanse use) you don't want to happen at a specific time (just what the current Condibuild does, it just daze chain to prevent heal/condiremove use without the incentive or need to interrupt anything after the burst just until the target is dead, you prevent the cast start straight). Seriously sometimes i feel like there is an insane lack of understanding and knowledge about simple fight tactics and how valueable specific tactical moves are. Just like the UNOsomething guy cannot be convinced that Swiping into a block is rewarding... No clue if doing martial arts is just helping me here... but some stuff is simple logic and brain use tbh. > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > @"viquing.8254" yes :D > I mean people that play power mirage know why its hard as kitten. > People that dont play power mirage think its hard becouse they can kill it for free My explanaings and analysis is based on own ingame experience when playing different Mesmer builds myself and from playing vs different Mesmer builds with different classes myself, as also based on analysis of footage from Powermirages actually aware and able to utilize the more active part of IH/ambushes on Powermirage and reduce the passive part to a minimum, just as based on simple logic when looking at the design of the Mirage mechanic. Just as talkign to them while trying to play it well myself (never happend sadly) but also while trying to counterplay it better. I am not just using simple imagination out of dreams here rofl. The 100% passive design from condi ambushes compared to the 20-30% passive part of power ambushes also leads to MC being insanely broken on Condimirage (and ONLY on Condimirage with IH) by deleting all opportunity costs in dodge management which are implemented as inherent costs in the spec since pof release to balance out MC as super strong mechanic. Means a Powermirage with IH is also not carried by MC without inherent trade off, because on Powermirage MC has this inherent trade off, on condi it doesn't. > @"bravan.3876" said: > I made a lot of detailed wall of text posts, why IH is not the issue, it is even a pretty interesting trait can have a very high active and skillful part, adds a lot of skill ceiling to Mirage, at least when ambushes are designed well. I also explained why EM as a stunbreak on dodge was utterly broken while the MC ability to dodge while still being stunned has coutnerplay, doesn't neutralize the cc completely and rewards good Mirages way more for dodging the cc in the first place. MC is a strong feature but not gamebreaking while old EM with the stunbreak was completely unhealthy and broken op with zero counterplay, deletign any reward a player gets for a well timed cc on a Mirage. Just a passive mistake cover. > > Condimirage was an issue because the condi ambushes are bad and passive and op designed. They added that many dmg to the build, that Condimirage could use Chaosline (what is in my opinion the most problematic line of Mesmers right before Inspiration, Chaos is completely passive and low skill ceiling even on the few less passive traits, also it has way to good synergies to Mirage traitline in terms of boonstacking). I rly don't want to go into detail again, but reworking condi ambushes or at least delete a good part of the condi dmg from the clone ambushes directly (not indirectly by nerfing core traits again or by deleting one dodge from Miragespec) is the only right step to solve these issues by its rootes and add skill ceiling to Condimirage while nerfing it to a balanced state. > Neither IH nor MC were the issue in the first place made Condimirage broken. For MC i have not explained that often already so i do it for MC again: > > > The one dodge change is not a trade off, it is just a PvP/ WvW orientated nerf to MC because forum bronze propaganda complained about dodge while stunned is beyond broken, even though it never was what made any Mirage build op and even after 3 years of PoF, plebs still didn't learn how to use Mirages opportunity costs in dodgemanagement to their advantage, how to easy counter and outplay something that can dodge while stunned in a spec environment with that high opportunity costs in dodgemanagement and on a spec being squishy that they literally need to avoid autoattacks. > > No, that is not correct actually. Bronze propaganda and Devs just lacked in class knowledge and understanding. So they missed, that the correlation was NOT: > > **MC dodge while stun/ cast while dodge ability -> Mirage op.** > > It is more like: > > **passive and too strong condi (clone) ambushes -> barely to no opportunity cost in dodgemanagement for Condimirage only (no need to dodge offensive, able to add passive Chaosline as additional sustain while still having high passive condi dmg)-> MC ability to dodge while stunned/ cast while dodging -> no punishment from cc at all because passive clone dmg still rewarding enough even while Condimirage itself is stunned-> Condimirage op (not because of MC more because of the wrong designed condi ambushes in addition to MC)** > > MC by itself was not the problem, pre patch nerfs balanced that out already. Mirage got outdodges by most classes even pre patch already. > Only Condimirage, because of only Condimirage specific characteristics had a balance issue from MC+passive and too strong clone ambushes. With other words the one dodge nerf cut the mechanic too late and at the wrong position of the problem chain from Condimirage, leads to unnecessary nerfs of not op power builds, and to the unnecessary high costs in skill ceiling, tactical deepness and mechanical complexity for the whole spec and not only for the one op condi playstyle on Mirage. Reworking condi ambushes would have had the same effect than the one dodge change but with way less costs and trouble for the spec as a whole. But yes i guess Condimirage was fine, just not as easy to kill as power, that is all xD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
viquing.8254 Posted April 1, 2020 Share Posted April 1, 2020 @"bravan.3876" : I'm out of this, continue to live in your bubble thinking you know everything and understand everything, I have better time play ingame to improve myself instead of discussing with someone who put his own view on relative definition as a base to explain what skill should be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bravan.3876 Posted April 1, 2020 Share Posted April 1, 2020 > @"viquing.8254" said: > @"bravan.3876" : > I'm out of this, continue to live in your bubble thinking you know everything and understand everything, I have better time play ingame to improve myself instead of discussing with someone who put his own view on relative definition as a base to explain what skill should be. You literally try to argue vs logic and facts not a simple opinion but that is ,as said, your loss not mine. Ty for not repsonding with another wall of nonsense and stealing my time. Rly appreciated at this point, because i can only deal with a limited amount of stupidity without getting banned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
viquing.8254 Posted April 1, 2020 Share Posted April 1, 2020 > @"bravan.3876" said: > > @"viquing.8254" said: > > @"bravan.3876" : > > I'm out of this, continue to live in your bubble thinking you know everything and understand everything, I have better time play ingame to improve myself instead of discussing with someone who put his own view on relative definition as a base to explain what skill should be. > > You literally try to argue vs logic and facts not a simple opinion but that is ,as said, your loss not mine. Ty for not repsonding with another wall of nonsense and stealing my time. Rly appreciated at this point, because i can only deal with a limited amount of stupidity without getting banned. Ok, you want a more detailled version of why your fucking bad logic is all personnal opinion based, then : First you base all you reasonnement of what is skilled based on active and passive skills on your feeling, cf the wall of text where you give your definition in another post. Which I don't agree about them. Secondly : >I didn't say you don't need to prevent keyskill cast and ofc you also sometimes interrupt stuff on purpose but in coorinated 5v5 play you mostly just condiburst together with the other roamers and then daze chain until the target is down. We were talking about gameplay difference, there is no difference in the need of rupting keyskill at the right time. The difference is that you will have to do it more often in condi while having less rupt because some are used to clear boons. >And when ppl rly come and say power amsbushes are more passive then i am done here. Yeah its very skilled to output GS ambush to stack might/vuln before a burst, very hard to do. Same for putting pressure at range. If you don't get that before being overnerfed, staff ambush had exactly the same purpose : do a spike of damage, you didn't know anything about mirage. >No, the question about how active or passive different ambushes from clones are has barely to do with the interrupt ability, that is just a little part of it. Fact is you CAN and NEED active and tactically on purpose uses of power ambushes **THEY ARE UNRELIABLE.** You can't do smart play on a sword clone ambush who didn't even touch the target most of time if the clone is staying alive enough to start his ambush. You base most of your reasonnement on a **montage** you see one day. If you can't differenciate a montage to a stream session, I dunno what to do. > There is enough footage of good Powermirages clearly using the mechanic very active and on that lvl ? You dreamed it ? Drop your pink glasses when watching power mirage vids please. So no, your logic is all based on crap personal foundations : 1) I don't agree about your vision of what is skilled. 2) I don't agree about your defintions of passive/active. 3) I don't agree when you say that currently the condi meta build has totally different gameplay than a power mirage one which is why I posted in this thieves thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bravan.3876 Posted April 1, 2020 Share Posted April 1, 2020 > @"viquing.8254" said: > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > @"viquing.8254" said: > > > @"bravan.3876" : > > > I'm out of this, continue to live in your bubble thinking you know everything and understand everything, I have better time play ingame to improve myself instead of discussing with someone who put his own view on relative definition as a base to explain what skill should be. > > > > You literally try to argue vs logic and facts not a simple opinion but that is ,as said, your loss not mine. Ty for not repsonding with another wall of nonsense and stealing my time. Rly appreciated at this point, because i can only deal with a limited amount of stupidity without getting banned. > > Ok, you want a more detailled version of why your kitten bad logic is all personnal opinion based, then : > > First you base all you reasonnement of what is skilled based on active and passive skills on your feeling, cf the wall of text where you give your definition in another post. Which I don't agree about them. > Secondly : > >I didn't say you don't need to prevent keyskill cast and ofc you also sometimes interrupt stuff on purpose but in coorinated 5v5 play you mostly just condiburst together with the other roamers and then daze chain until the target is down. > We were talking about gameplay difference, there is no difference in the need of rupting keyskill at the right time. The difference is that you will have to do it more often in condi while having less rupt because some are used to clear boons. > > >And when ppl rly come and say power amsbushes are more passive then i am done here. > Yeah its very skilled to output GS ambush to stack might/vuln before a burst, very hard to do. Same for putting pressure at range. > If you don't get that before being overnerfed, staff ambush had exactly the same purpose : do a spike of damage, you didn't know anything about mirage. > > >No, the question about how active or passive different ambushes from clones are has barely to do with the interrupt ability, that is just a little part of it. Fact is you CAN and NEED active and tactically on purpose uses of power ambushes > **THEY ARE UNRELIABLE.** You can't do smart play on a sword clone ambush who didn't even touch the target most of time if the clone is staying alive enough to start his ambush. You base most of your reasonnement on a **montage** you see one day. If you can't differenciate a montage to a stream session, I dunno what to do. > > > There is enough footage of good Powermirages clearly using the mechanic very active and on that lvl > ? You dreamed it ? Drop your pink glasses when watching power mirage vids please. > > So no, your logic is all based on kitten personal foundations : > 1) I don't agree about your vision of what is skilled. > 2) I don't agree about your defintions of passive/active. > 3) I don't agree when you say that currently the condi meta build has totally different gameplay than a power mirage one which is why I posted in this thieves thread. No, you got that wrong, i said ty for NOT giving me more nonsense. But whatever xD No, my point is about passive and active nature of ambush/ IH mechanic on Mirage not about that sword ambush is used on the new condi build just as it is used on the powerbuild. The new Condimirage build doesn't even use IH just as it doesn't use a single interrupt trait (so why you want to compare 2 totally different builds in the first place?). **The IH mechanic is that hard overnerfed from the one dodge change that not even the condi playstyle** (what is clearly favored and more passive and more op and way lower skill ceiling with MC/IH/ passive clone ambushes than power ever was) **is using IH anymore**. Means your new beloved Condimirage build is completely irrelevant for the question how active/ passive and skillful condi IH vs power IH Mirage is. We only talk about that in a side step not as main topic. Don't mix that up. As said what you agree too about the factual existing continuum of different active and passive rates from different skills/ traits is irrelevant because the existence of different lvls of passivity and how that determines different types of skill requirement is not denyable. It is not about opinion, it is a fact. My definitions and categorisations are just a tool to put it in words. You can rename it but you cannot get a different result than me. It is simply impossible no matter if you are able to see it or not. The earth is not flat, believe it or not. And the world is not only black and white, there are a lot of different shades of grey also when it comes to active/ passive rates of skill natures. Not to mention that you just deny and for that devalue every skilled and active on purpose play ever happend on Powermirage with IH/ambush mechanic as simple random luck and passive carry. That is just a big rofl. You are not able to utilize it maybe but that is your limitation in skill, it is not fair to devalue active plays clearly happen on Powermirage with IH from all Mesmers just because you are not able to do it. I can believe that it was just random luck as a passive side effect from pure defensive dodge in your case, rly no problem with imagine that xD, but i know and saw and even did it myself here and there to utilize the IH/ambush mechanic on power active and tactical. Reality is rly the prove in itself here. You CAN do and NEED active and on purpose uses of power ambushes for combos and active outplay moves differently timed from pure defensive dodges to play Powermirage on maximum potential (what you clearly don't do, not surprising when you even deny that it is possible). While you have no tools on Condimirage from IH/ambushes for meaningful timed offensive dodges for ambush rewards on condi IH Mirage, you have no need and no incentive to make offensive dodges and for that neither opportunity costs in dodgemanagement nor any activity in the whole mechanic. This difference between power and condi Mirage is a simple fact no matter how stubborn you and others deny it. > Yeah its very skilled to output GS ambush to stack might/vuln before a burst, very hard to do. Same for putting pressure at range. > If you don't get that before being overnerfed, staff ambush had exactly the same purpose : do a spike of damage, you didn't know anything about mirage. Are you rly that narrowed? Ofc the skill ceiling doesn't come from the fact that you have to press 2 buttons extra before going for a gs or sword shatterburst combo, the skill ceiling comes from the need to know when you can do an offensive dodge without getting punished by downstate and to know when its worth putting even more cds into one brust and when not. Otherwise you can argue that nothing in GW2 needs skill because in the end we all only press buttons. You get more and more stupid here... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odik.4587 Posted April 1, 2020 Share Posted April 1, 2020 > @"bravan.3876" said: > > @"viquing.8254" said: > > @"bravan.3876" : > > I'm out of this, continue to live in your bubble thinking you know everything and understand everything, I have better time play ingame to improve myself instead of discussing with someone who put his own view on relative definition as a base to explain what skill should be. > > You literally try to argue vs logic and facts not a simple opinion but that is ,as said, your loss not mine. Ty for not repsonding with another wall of nonsense and stealing my time. Rly appreciated at this point, because i can only deal with a limited amount of stupidity without getting banned. Selling your opinions as facts, thinking you are the only one who knows everything better than anyone - next level of being delusional, keep it up ! Soon you will be in charge of the balance team! :joy: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
viquing.8254 Posted April 1, 2020 Share Posted April 1, 2020 > @"bravan.3876" said: > > @"viquing.8254" said: > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > @"viquing.8254" said: > > > > @"bravan.3876" : > > > > I'm out of this, continue to live in your bubble thinking you know everything and understand everything, I have better time play ingame to improve myself instead of discussing with someone who put his own view on relative definition as a base to explain what skill should be. > > > > > > You literally try to argue vs logic and facts not a simple opinion but that is ,as said, your loss not mine. Ty for not repsonding with another wall of nonsense and stealing my time. Rly appreciated at this point, because i can only deal with a limited amount of stupidity without getting banned. > > > > Ok, you want a more detailled version of why your kitten bad logic is all personnal opinion based, then : > > > > First you base all you reasonnement of what is skilled based on active and passive skills on your feeling, cf the wall of text where you give your definition in another post. Which I don't agree about them. > > Secondly : > > >I didn't say you don't need to prevent keyskill cast and ofc you also sometimes interrupt stuff on purpose but in coorinated 5v5 play you mostly just condiburst together with the other roamers and then daze chain until the target is down. > > We were talking about gameplay difference, there is no difference in the need of rupting keyskill at the right time. The difference is that you will have to do it more often in condi while having less rupt because some are used to clear boons. > > > > >And when ppl rly come and say power amsbushes are more passive then i am done here. > > Yeah its very skilled to output GS ambush to stack might/vuln before a burst, very hard to do. Same for putting pressure at range. > > If you don't get that before being overnerfed, staff ambush had exactly the same purpose : do a spike of damage, you didn't know anything about mirage. > > > > >No, the question about how active or passive different ambushes from clones are has barely to do with the interrupt ability, that is just a little part of it. Fact is you CAN and NEED active and tactically on purpose uses of power ambushes > > **THEY ARE UNRELIABLE.** You can't do smart play on a sword clone ambush who didn't even touch the target most of time if the clone is staying alive enough to start his ambush. You base most of your reasonnement on a **montage** you see one day. If you can't differenciate a montage to a stream session, I dunno what to do. > > > > > There is enough footage of good Powermirages clearly using the mechanic very active and on that lvl > > ? You dreamed it ? Drop your pink glasses when watching power mirage vids please. > > > > So no, your logic is all based on kitten personal foundations : > > 1) I don't agree about your vision of what is skilled. > > 2) I don't agree about your defintions of passive/active. > > 3) I don't agree when you say that currently the condi meta build has totally different gameplay than a power mirage one which is why I posted in this thieves thread. > > No, you got that wrong, i said ty for NOT giving me more nonsense. But whatever xD > > No, my point is about passive and active nature of ambush/ IH mechanic on Mirage not about that sword ambush is used on the new condi build just as it is used on the powerbuild. The new Condimirage build doesn't even use IH just as it doesn't use a single interrupt trait (so why you want to compare 2 totally different builds in the first place?). **The IH mechanic is that hard overnerfed from the one dodge change that not even the condi playstyle** (what is clearly favored and more passive and more op and way lower skill ceiling with MC/IH/ passive clone ambushes than power ever was) **is using IH anymore**. Means your new beloved Condimirage build is completely irrelevant for the question how active/ passive and skillful condi IH vs power IH Mirage is. We only talk about that in a side step not as main topic. Don't mix that up. > > As said what you agree too about the factual existing continuum of different active and passive rates from different skills/ traits is irrelevant because the existence of different lvls of passivity and how that determines different types of skill requirement is not denyable. It is not about opinion, it is a fact. My definitions and categorisations are just a tool to put it in words. You can rename it but you cannot get a different result than me. It is simply impossible no matter if you are able to see it or not. The earth is not flat, believe it or not. And the world is not only black and white, there are a lot of different shades of grey also when it comes to active/ passive rates of skill natures. > > Not to mention that you just deny and for that devalue every skilled and active on purpose play ever happend on Powermirage with IH/ambush mechanic as simple random luck and passive carry. That is just a big rofl. You are not able to utilize it maybe but that is your limitation in skill, it is not fair to devalue active plays clearly happen on Powermirage with IH from all Mesmers just because you are not able to do it. > > I can believe that it was just random luck as a passive side effect from pure defensive dodge in your case, rly no problem with imagine that xD, but i know and saw and even did it myself here and there to utilize the IH/ambush mechanic on power active and tactical. Reality is rly the prove in itself here. You CAN do and NEED active and on purpose uses of power ambushes for combos and active outplay moves differently timed from pure defensive dodges to play Powermirage on maximum potential (what you clearly don't do, not surprising when you even deny that it is possible). While you have no tools on Condimirage from IH/ambushes for meaningful timed offensive dodges for ambush rewards on condi IH Mirage, you have no need and no incentive to make offensive dodges and for that neither opportunity costs in dodgemanagement nor any activity in the whole mechanic. This difference between power and condi Mirage is a simple fact no matter how stubborn you and others deny it. > > > Yeah its very skilled to output GS ambush to stack might/vuln before a burst, very hard to do. Same for putting pressure at range. > > If you don't get that before being overnerfed, staff ambush had exactly the same purpose : do a spike of damage, you didn't know anything about mirage. > Are you rly that narrowed? Ofc the skill ceiling doesn't come from the fact that you have to press 2 buttons extra before going for a gs or sword shatterburst combo, the skill ceiling comes from the need to know when you can do an offensive dodge without getting punished by downstate and to know when its worth putting even more cds into one brust and when not. Otherwise you can argue that nothing in GW2 needs skill because in the end we all only press buttons. You get more and more stupid here... - The passivity on condi build has nothing to do with mirage, it's a core problem as clone output condi baseline. Again look at staff ambush before nerf, they were used exactly the same way GS ambush are used. It has nothing to do with mirage. - I don't love a mesmer build more than another and moreover I don't claim a build is the godlike summum of skill while all other are dumbass noob carry. You know something about beeing open and not fanatic on something. - The original discussion was about you stating that the current condi build has a hudge gameplay gap with a power mirage. This is just false. I already detailled the burst part which is what theses builds are based on. you can try to deviate on other thing to look right it doesn't mater. - I deny you theorical skilled gameplay as long as even the best players make it work only 20% of the time. - You should play power mirage during 1 month, like really. And not just duelling with it but having map rotation to be efficient on 5v5. - You have sword on condi the same on power. Dunno why sword is skilled because "POWER" while sword is noob because "CONDI". It's the same thing. About axe vs GS ambush, putting appart the efficiency, ocf axe ambush can have his uses. One example : it will run on near stealthed people, which is nice to prevent a burst, putting pressure on stealthed guys. Other example : it will damaging an opponent running behind you when you don't select anything, which is nice to prepare a rollbackburst. - So when you push button on GS for ambush it's skill while when you press the same amount of button on condi to do other things it's passive play. Ok. I'm ok being the top idiot here, at least I will be good at something with visible proves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bravan.3876 Posted April 1, 2020 Share Posted April 1, 2020 > @"Odik.4587" said: > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > @"viquing.8254" said: > > > @"bravan.3876" : > > > I'm out of this, continue to live in your bubble thinking you know everything and understand everything, I have better time play ingame to improve myself instead of discussing with someone who put his own view on relative definition as a base to explain what skill should be. > > > > You literally try to argue vs logic and facts not a simple opinion but that is ,as said, your loss not mine. Ty for not repsonding with another wall of nonsense and stealing my time. Rly appreciated at this point, because i can only deal with a limited amount of stupidity without getting banned. > Selling your opinions as facts, thinking you are the only one who knows everything better than anyone - next level of being delusional, keep it up ! Soon you will be in charge of the balance team! :joy: When your world is only back and white it is lucky not my problem. My definitions about active and passive are not an opinion, they just putting in words what clearly exist. I never said i know everything but in that one i am simply right, just that i am sure that i am right when i say the earth is not flat. Some stuff is just true, it has nothing to do with arrogance. Also active uses of IH Powermirage mechanic are possible and even needed, that is a fact too, i know that for sure because i even have done it myself (aside from seeing from others Mesmers ingame and in footage), and i managed to do it myself here and there, could do it after tryharding to get good and to understand Powermirage and accepting the active mechanic and improving in using it (i was only semi successful because Powermirage has clearly a high skill ceiling but i tried long enough to get the mechanics and the active parts and how hard it is to pull that off). I did that effort also to understand how to outplay Powermirage better on other classes. I am not talking about stuff i have not tried out myself more than one time. Ofc not in ranked, i am not a masochist, but that does not matter, those active plays are clearly possible. I managed to do them at least here and there sometimes, after hard work of trying to get understanding of how Powermirage works. You want to tell me i was just dreaming? You want to tell me that what i did with gs and sword ambushes was just lucky random passive clone carry while IN FACT i just organized my cds and comboed the ambushes from me and clones that well to maximise dmg and impact in fights active and on purpose or while i IN FACT did a good outplay with a clone daze (sometimes an interrupt by good prediction of a specific skill use, sometimes proactive preventing an action would kill me or a teammate at that point but not a bit later anymore) clearly tactical and on purpose and for that active. Who are you to tell me what i had in mind and what not? Who are you to tell me how tactical or not i played, who are you to tell me i was not mindful playing i was just carried by a lucky passive clone ambush proc? Who are you to tell me what i was thinking and doing on purpose (can you look in my mind/head and tell me what i think or what? Are you rly that arrogant?) and that just because you as Mesmer mains are not even able to get the simple theory behind the mechanic? While i, as barely talented Powermesmer multiclass player can even do it here and there and holy cow how proud and satisfied i was by finally getting those clutch plays on Powermirage at least sometimes. But i guess it was all an illusion all along. Was all just passive carry, i was just lucky while braindead spamming pure defensive dodges. I must have missed that. My bad! That is good to know, thanks for the insights, i didn't know myself what i do on purpose and what not when i play a class. Good to have someone telling me. The Gods have spoken i guess... Who are the arrogant delusional here, telling me what was in my or other Mesmers mind and on purpose and what not while playing and who are the arrogants here denying and devaluing every active play ever happend on Powermirage and claim it was just a pure passive clone carry because you are neither able to do them yourself nor to even understand the mechanic theoretically? > @"viquing.8254" said: > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > @"viquing.8254" said: > > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > > @"viquing.8254" said: > > > > > @"bravan.3876" : > > > > > I'm out of this, continue to live in your bubble thinking you know everything and understand everything, I have better time play ingame to improve myself instead of discussing with someone who put his own view on relative definition as a base to explain what skill should be. > > > > > > > > You literally try to argue vs logic and facts not a simple opinion but that is ,as said, your loss not mine. Ty for not repsonding with another wall of nonsense and stealing my time. Rly appreciated at this point, because i can only deal with a limited amount of stupidity without getting banned. > > > > > > Ok, you want a more detailled version of why your kitten bad logic is all personnal opinion based, then : > > > > > > First you base all you reasonnement of what is skilled based on active and passive skills on your feeling, cf the wall of text where you give your definition in another post. Which I don't agree about them. > > > Secondly : > > > >I didn't say you don't need to prevent keyskill cast and ofc you also sometimes interrupt stuff on purpose but in coorinated 5v5 play you mostly just condiburst together with the other roamers and then daze chain until the target is down. > > > We were talking about gameplay difference, there is no difference in the need of rupting keyskill at the right time. The difference is that you will have to do it more often in condi while having less rupt because some are used to clear boons. > > > > > > >And when ppl rly come and say power amsbushes are more passive then i am done here. > > > Yeah its very skilled to output GS ambush to stack might/vuln before a burst, very hard to do. Same for putting pressure at range. > > > If you don't get that before being overnerfed, staff ambush had exactly the same purpose : do a spike of damage, you didn't know anything about mirage. > > > > > > >No, the question about how active or passive different ambushes from clones are has barely to do with the interrupt ability, that is just a little part of it. Fact is you CAN and NEED active and tactically on purpose uses of power ambushes > > > **THEY ARE UNRELIABLE.** You can't do smart play on a sword clone ambush who didn't even touch the target most of time if the clone is staying alive enough to start his ambush. You base most of your reasonnement on a **montage** you see one day. If you can't differenciate a montage to a stream session, I dunno what to do. > > > > > > > There is enough footage of good Powermirages clearly using the mechanic very active and on that lvl > > > ? You dreamed it ? Drop your pink glasses when watching power mirage vids please. > > > > > > So no, your logic is all based on kitten personal foundations : > > > 1) I don't agree about your vision of what is skilled. > > > 2) I don't agree about your defintions of passive/active. > > > 3) I don't agree when you say that currently the condi meta build has totally different gameplay than a power mirage one which is why I posted in this thieves thread. > > > > No, you got that wrong, i said ty for NOT giving me more nonsense. But whatever xD > > > > No, my point is about passive and active nature of ambush/ IH mechanic on Mirage not about that sword ambush is used on the new condi build just as it is used on the powerbuild. The new Condimirage build doesn't even use IH just as it doesn't use a single interrupt trait (so why you want to compare 2 totally different builds in the first place?). **The IH mechanic is that hard overnerfed from the one dodge change that not even the condi playstyle** (what is clearly favored and more passive and more op and way lower skill ceiling with MC/IH/ passive clone ambushes than power ever was) **is using IH anymore**. Means your new beloved Condimirage build is completely irrelevant for the question how active/ passive and skillful condi IH vs power IH Mirage is. We only talk about that in a side step not as main topic. Don't mix that up. > > > > As said what you agree too about the factual existing continuum of different active and passive rates from different skills/ traits is irrelevant because the existence of different lvls of passivity and how that determines different types of skill requirement is not denyable. It is not about opinion, it is a fact. My definitions and categorisations are just a tool to put it in words. You can rename it but you cannot get a different result than me. It is simply impossible no matter if you are able to see it or not. The earth is not flat, believe it or not. And the world is not only black and white, there are a lot of different shades of grey also when it comes to active/ passive rates of skill natures. > > > > Not to mention that you just deny and for that devalue every skilled and active on purpose play ever happend on Powermirage with IH/ambush mechanic as simple random luck and passive carry. That is just a big rofl. You are not able to utilize it maybe but that is your limitation in skill, it is not fair to devalue active plays clearly happen on Powermirage with IH from all Mesmers just because you are not able to do it. > > > > I can believe that it was just random luck as a passive side effect from pure defensive dodge in your case, rly no problem with imagine that xD, but i know and saw and even did it myself here and there to utilize the IH/ambush mechanic on power active and tactical. Reality is rly the prove in itself here. You CAN do and NEED active and on purpose uses of power ambushes for combos and active outplay moves differently timed from pure defensive dodges to play Powermirage on maximum potential (what you clearly don't do, not surprising when you even deny that it is possible). While you have no tools on Condimirage from IH/ambushes for meaningful timed offensive dodges for ambush rewards on condi IH Mirage, you have no need and no incentive to make offensive dodges and for that neither opportunity costs in dodgemanagement nor any activity in the whole mechanic. This difference between power and condi Mirage is a simple fact no matter how stubborn you and others deny it. > > > > > Yeah its very skilled to output GS ambush to stack might/vuln before a burst, very hard to do. Same for putting pressure at range. > > > If you don't get that before being overnerfed, staff ambush had exactly the same purpose : do a spike of damage, you didn't know anything about mirage. > > Are you rly that narrowed? Ofc the skill ceiling doesn't come from the fact that you have to press 2 buttons extra before going for a gs or sword shatterburst combo, the skill ceiling comes from the need to know when you can do an offensive dodge without getting punished by downstate and to know when its worth putting even more cds into one brust and when not. Otherwise you can argue that nothing in GW2 needs skill because in the end we all only press buttons. You get more and more stupid here... > > - The passivity on condi build has nothing to do with mirage, it's a core problem as clone output condi baseline. Another superior wisdom from the Mesmer god can't even understand why Signet of Illusion has a better synergy with Mirage than with core Mesmer! Gosh that is so wrong it hurts. Ofc it is a Condimirage specific problem based on wrong ambush design. That the problem with passive clone dmg starts in core already is true but doesn't say anything about what Mirage with IH adds as passiveness on top of that for condi builds with the current state of condi ambush design. Seriously your understanding is so bad and low at this point i rly have no way to get to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
viquing.8254 Posted April 1, 2020 Share Posted April 1, 2020 > @"bravan.3876" said: > > @"viquing.8254" said: > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > No, you got that wrong, i said ty for NOT giving me more nonsense. But whatever xD > > > > > > No, my point is about passive and active nature of ambush/ IH mechanic on Mirage not about that sword ambush is used on the new condi build just as it is used on the powerbuild. The new Condimirage build doesn't even use IH just as it doesn't use a single interrupt trait (so why you want to compare 2 totally different builds in the first place?). **The IH mechanic is that hard overnerfed from the one dodge change that not even the condi playstyle** (what is clearly favored and more passive and more op and way lower skill ceiling with MC/IH/ passive clone ambushes than power ever was) **is using IH anymore**. Means your new beloved Condimirage build is completely irrelevant for the question how active/ passive and skillful condi IH vs power IH Mirage is. We only talk about that in a side step not as main topic. Don't mix that up. > > > > > > As said what you agree too about the factual existing continuum of different active and passive rates from different skills/ traits is irrelevant because the existence of different lvls of passivity and how that determines different types of skill requirement is not denyable. It is not about opinion, it is a fact. My definitions and categorisations are just a tool to put it in words. You can rename it but you cannot get a different result than me. It is simply impossible no matter if you are able to see it or not. The earth is not flat, believe it or not. And the world is not only black and white, there are a lot of different shades of grey also when it comes to active/ passive rates of skill natures. > > > > > > Not to mention that you just deny and for that devalue every skilled and active on purpose play ever happend on Powermirage with IH/ambush mechanic as simple random luck and passive carry. That is just a big rofl. You are not able to utilize it maybe but that is your limitation in skill, it is not fair to devalue active plays clearly happen on Powermirage with IH from all Mesmers just because you are not able to do it. > > > > > > I can believe that it was just random luck as a passive side effect from pure defensive dodge in your case, rly no problem with imagine that xD, but i know and saw and even did it myself here and there to utilize the IH/ambush mechanic on power active and tactical. Reality is rly the prove in itself here. You CAN do and NEED active and on purpose uses of power ambushes for combos and active outplay moves differently timed from pure defensive dodges to play Powermirage on maximum potential (what you clearly don't do, not surprising when you even deny that it is possible). While you have no tools on Condimirage from IH/ambushes for meaningful timed offensive dodges for ambush rewards on condi IH Mirage, you have no need and no incentive to make offensive dodges and for that neither opportunity costs in dodgemanagement nor any activity in the whole mechanic. This difference between power and condi Mirage is a simple fact no matter how stubborn you and others deny it. > > > > > > > Yeah its very skilled to output GS ambush to stack might/vuln before a burst, very hard to do. Same for putting pressure at range. > > > > If you don't get that before being overnerfed, staff ambush had exactly the same purpose : do a spike of damage, you didn't know anything about mirage. > > > Are you rly that narrowed? Ofc the skill ceiling doesn't come from the fact that you have to press 2 buttons extra before going for a gs or sword shatterburst combo, the skill ceiling comes from the need to know when you can do an offensive dodge without getting punished by downstate and to know when its worth putting even more cds into one brust and when not. Otherwise you can argue that nothing in GW2 needs skill because in the end we all only press buttons. You get more and more stupid here... > > > > - The passivity on condi build has nothing to do with mirage, it's a core problem as clone output condi baseline. > > Another superior wisdom from the Mesmer god can't even understand why Signet of Illusion has a better synergy with Mirage than with core Mesmer! > Gosh that is so wrong it hurts. Ofc it is a Condimirage specific problem based on wrong ambush design. That the problem with passive clone dmg starts in core already is true but doesn't say anything about what Mirage with IH adds as passiveness on top of that for condi builds with the current state of condi ambush design. Seriously your understanding is so bad and low at this point i rly have no way to get to you. Case 1 : you use GS ambush to burst and to stack might and vuln. Case 2 : you use staff ambush to burst and to stack might and cover condi. In the two cases the best moment you use them, the more efficient they are. I know it hurt but putting appart the condi pressure from clone auto which has nothing to do with mirage, where is the gameplay gap ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bravan.3876 Posted April 1, 2020 Share Posted April 1, 2020 > @"viquing.8254" said: > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > @"viquing.8254" said: > > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > No, you got that wrong, i said ty for NOT giving me more nonsense. But whatever xD > > > > > > > > No, my point is about passive and active nature of ambush/ IH mechanic on Mirage not about that sword ambush is used on the new condi build just as it is used on the powerbuild. The new Condimirage build doesn't even use IH just as it doesn't use a single interrupt trait (so why you want to compare 2 totally different builds in the first place?). **The IH mechanic is that hard overnerfed from the one dodge change that not even the condi playstyle** (what is clearly favored and more passive and more op and way lower skill ceiling with MC/IH/ passive clone ambushes than power ever was) **is using IH anymore**. Means your new beloved Condimirage build is completely irrelevant for the question how active/ passive and skillful condi IH vs power IH Mirage is. We only talk about that in a side step not as main topic. Don't mix that up. > > > > > > > > As said what you agree too about the factual existing continuum of different active and passive rates from different skills/ traits is irrelevant because the existence of different lvls of passivity and how that determines different types of skill requirement is not denyable. It is not about opinion, it is a fact. My definitions and categorisations are just a tool to put it in words. You can rename it but you cannot get a different result than me. It is simply impossible no matter if you are able to see it or not. The earth is not flat, believe it or not. And the world is not only black and white, there are a lot of different shades of grey also when it comes to active/ passive rates of skill natures. > > > > > > > > Not to mention that you just deny and for that devalue every skilled and active on purpose play ever happend on Powermirage with IH/ambush mechanic as simple random luck and passive carry. That is just a big rofl. You are not able to utilize it maybe but that is your limitation in skill, it is not fair to devalue active plays clearly happen on Powermirage with IH from all Mesmers just because you are not able to do it. > > > > > > > > I can believe that it was just random luck as a passive side effect from pure defensive dodge in your case, rly no problem with imagine that xD, but i know and saw and even did it myself here and there to utilize the IH/ambush mechanic on power active and tactical. Reality is rly the prove in itself here. You CAN do and NEED active and on purpose uses of power ambushes for combos and active outplay moves differently timed from pure defensive dodges to play Powermirage on maximum potential (what you clearly don't do, not surprising when you even deny that it is possible). While you have no tools on Condimirage from IH/ambushes for meaningful timed offensive dodges for ambush rewards on condi IH Mirage, you have no need and no incentive to make offensive dodges and for that neither opportunity costs in dodgemanagement nor any activity in the whole mechanic. This difference between power and condi Mirage is a simple fact no matter how stubborn you and others deny it. > > > > > > > > > Yeah its very skilled to output GS ambush to stack might/vuln before a burst, very hard to do. Same for putting pressure at range. > > > > > If you don't get that before being overnerfed, staff ambush had exactly the same purpose : do a spike of damage, you didn't know anything about mirage. > > > > Are you rly that narrowed? Ofc the skill ceiling doesn't come from the fact that you have to press 2 buttons extra before going for a gs or sword shatterburst combo, the skill ceiling comes from the need to know when you can do an offensive dodge without getting punished by downstate and to know when its worth putting even more cds into one brust and when not. Otherwise you can argue that nothing in GW2 needs skill because in the end we all only press buttons. You get more and more stupid here... > > > > > > - The passivity on condi build has nothing to do with mirage, it's a core problem as clone output condi baseline. > > > > Another superior wisdom from the Mesmer god can't even understand why Signet of Illusion has a better synergy with Mirage than with core Mesmer! > > Gosh that is so wrong it hurts. Ofc it is a Condimirage specific problem based on wrong ambush design. That the problem with passive clone dmg starts in core already is true but doesn't say anything about what Mirage with IH adds as passiveness on top of that for condi builds with the current state of condi ambush design. Seriously your understanding is so bad and low at this point i rly have no way to get to you. > > Case 1 : you use GS ambush to burst and to stack might and vuln. > Case 2 : you use staff ambush to burst and to stack might and cover condi. > > In the tow cases the best moment you use them, the more efficient they are. > I know it hurt but putting appart the condi pressure from clone auto which has nothing to do with mirage, were is the gameplay gap ? > Pre nerf the staff ambush (in particular the clones ones while just dodging defensive) literally was the burst and not just an upstreamed action to support and improve a burst combo following right after. The most valuable play on Condimirage was to let clones live as long as possible and barely shatter them while dodging pure defensive what was already enough dmg to kill. Literally the Condimirage could go brain afk on a safe spot only dodging not even using his own ambush and clones would still have enough dmg to kill. You think that such an insane high basic clone pressure makes winning a fight any hard? Ofc not. And i remember months ago you even agreeed to that, you answered to my post where i explained why Condimirage is too passive and you agreed. I feel like your lvl of understanding is decreasing here, we doing steps back and not forward and it rly starts to annyoy me too much to stay kind... But that was not my point (talking about staff ambush), my post aimed to your claim, that passivity is only based in core design and that the IH/ condi ambush mechanic itself doesn't add any passivity (what contradicts your own claims of how passive power ambushes are btw but who cares about logic)... But the main issue from IH-Condimirage is/ was (even post staff nerf), that it still could do more than enough dmg just by passive clones and pure defensive dodging. That there is no need and incentive to dodge offensive to make tactical outplays and no incentives/ need for different from pure defensive dodges timed selfbuff and debuff moves. But i explained that rly long enough and often enough already. You are at least right in one thing: because staff has some selfbuff elements from might and fury, it is more near to gs than scepter or axe ambush design. BUT still far away because: the might duration is way to long to make an well timed use to prepare a burst combo (what you didn't even needed to do: comboing you just let clones live and cast their autoattacks and ambushes) necessary. When on staff and with staff clones up you generate might perma without the need to think about it. And the dmg part of the ambush was just too mandatory that i never was playing like: Oh lets dodge offensive (that would have been a misplay on condi... imagine that, active gameplay was even punished not only not rewarded on condi IH) to stack some fury to than do a well executed shatter+weaponskills combo. Shatter on condi? Rofl no. You cannot deny that the whole Condimirage gameplay with IH is super spammy and passive in terms of mostly based on clone dmg from normal autoattacks and pure defensive dodges, doesn't need any timing aside form pure defensive dodging and doesn't need any thinking of how to outplay ppl with ambushes and shatter +ambush combos. Just spamming your weaponskills to keep clones up and hit some more not even needed dmg in addition to your clones is not skillful use of cds. It is just spam. You just use the ambushes for dmg and they were strong enough in dmg to not even do any offensive dodge for it. A Powermes being semi afk on a safe spot only spamming dodges for clone ambushes (not using his own ambush) will never kill anything (not even with 3 gs clones up), a pre patch Condimirage could do that. Compared to that clone spam feast on IH-condi, IH-Powermirage still needs to use shatter combos and also needs to include ambushes to prepare and improve those shatter combos. Just as utility condis like daze also enable active tactical outplay moves also in need of different timing from pure defensive dodging. Clone alone do barely anything, even on gs. On gs the Mesmers own ambush is just a little bit too strong atm and i already suggested a little nerf to the dmg and maybe even a little nerf to the might/vulnstacks. Reworking staff that the condi dmg is not main reason to use it (and so Mirage needs to use shatters to make enough dmg) and rework the might to be more but on shorter duration (2 max 3 secs), so that the main purpose to use staff ambush and clone ambushes from staff would be the self buff to prepare a condishatter burst and not the dmg part itself, then staff would be comparable with gs and it would be skilled and way more active. Sadly atm still not the case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
viquing.8254 Posted April 1, 2020 Share Posted April 1, 2020 > @"bravan.3876" said: > > @"viquing.8254" said: > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > > > @"viquing.8254" said: > > > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > > No, you got that wrong, i said ty for NOT giving me more nonsense. But whatever xD > > > > > > > > > > No, my point is about passive and active nature of ambush/ IH mechanic on Mirage not about that sword ambush is used on the new condi build just as it is used on the powerbuild. The new Condimirage build doesn't even use IH just as it doesn't use a single interrupt trait (so why you want to compare 2 totally different builds in the first place?). **The IH mechanic is that hard overnerfed from the one dodge change that not even the condi playstyle** (what is clearly favored and more passive and more op and way lower skill ceiling with MC/IH/ passive clone ambushes than power ever was) **is using IH anymore**. Means your new beloved Condimirage build is completely irrelevant for the question how active/ passive and skillful condi IH vs power IH Mirage is. We only talk about that in a side step not as main topic. Don't mix that up. > > > > > > > > > > As said what you agree too about the factual existing continuum of different active and passive rates from different skills/ traits is irrelevant because the existence of different lvls of passivity and how that determines different types of skill requirement is not denyable. It is not about opinion, it is a fact. My definitions and categorisations are just a tool to put it in words. You can rename it but you cannot get a different result than me. It is simply impossible no matter if you are able to see it or not. The earth is not flat, believe it or not. And the world is not only black and white, there are a lot of different shades of grey also when it comes to active/ passive rates of skill natures. > > > > > > > > > > Not to mention that you just deny and for that devalue every skilled and active on purpose play ever happend on Powermirage with IH/ambush mechanic as simple random luck and passive carry. That is just a big rofl. You are not able to utilize it maybe but that is your limitation in skill, it is not fair to devalue active plays clearly happen on Powermirage with IH from all Mesmers just because you are not able to do it. > > > > > > > > > > I can believe that it was just random luck as a passive side effect from pure defensive dodge in your case, rly no problem with imagine that xD, but i know and saw and even did it myself here and there to utilize the IH/ambush mechanic on power active and tactical. Reality is rly the prove in itself here. You CAN do and NEED active and on purpose uses of power ambushes for combos and active outplay moves differently timed from pure defensive dodges to play Powermirage on maximum potential (what you clearly don't do, not surprising when you even deny that it is possible). While you have no tools on Condimirage from IH/ambushes for meaningful timed offensive dodges for ambush rewards on condi IH Mirage, you have no need and no incentive to make offensive dodges and for that neither opportunity costs in dodgemanagement nor any activity in the whole mechanic. This difference between power and condi Mirage is a simple fact no matter how stubborn you and others deny it. > > > > > > > > > > > Yeah its very skilled to output GS ambush to stack might/vuln before a burst, very hard to do. Same for putting pressure at range. > > > > > > If you don't get that before being overnerfed, staff ambush had exactly the same purpose : do a spike of damage, you didn't know anything about mirage. > > > > > Are you rly that narrowed? Ofc the skill ceiling doesn't come from the fact that you have to press 2 buttons extra before going for a gs or sword shatterburst combo, the skill ceiling comes from the need to know when you can do an offensive dodge without getting punished by downstate and to know when its worth putting even more cds into one brust and when not. Otherwise you can argue that nothing in GW2 needs skill because in the end we all only press buttons. You get more and more stupid here... > > > > > > > > - The passivity on condi build has nothing to do with mirage, it's a core problem as clone output condi baseline. > > > > > > Another superior wisdom from the Mesmer god can't even understand why Signet of Illusion has a better synergy with Mirage than with core Mesmer! > > > Gosh that is so wrong it hurts. Ofc it is a Condimirage specific problem based on wrong ambush design. That the problem with passive clone dmg starts in core already is true but doesn't say anything about what Mirage with IH adds as passiveness on top of that for condi builds with the current state of condi ambush design. Seriously your understanding is so bad and low at this point i rly have no way to get to you. > > > > Case 1 : you use GS ambush to burst and to stack might and vuln. > > Case 2 : you use staff ambush to burst and to stack might and cover condi. > > > > In the tow cases the best moment you use them, the more efficient they are. > > I know it hurt but putting appart the condi pressure from clone auto which has nothing to do with mirage, were is the gameplay gap ? > > > > Pre nerf the staff ambush (in particular the clones ones while just dodging defensive) literally was the burst and not just an upstreamed action to support and improve a burst combo following right after. The most valuable play on Condimirage was to let clones live as long as possible and barely shatter them while dodging pure defensive what was already enough dmg to kill. Literally the Condimirage could go brain afk on a safe spot only dodging not even using his own ambush and clones would still have enough dmg to kill. You think that such an insane high basic clone pressure makes winning a fight any hard? Ofc not. And i remember months ago you even agreeed to that, you answered to my post where i explained why Condimirage is too passive and you agreed. I feel like your lvl of understanding is decreasing here, we doing steps back and not forward and it rly starts to annyoy me too much to stay kind... > > But that was not my point (talking about staff ambush), my post aimed to your claim, that passivity is only based in core design and that the IH/ condi ambush mechanic itself doesn't add any passivity (what contradicts your own claims of how passive power ambushes are btw but who cares about logic)... > > But the main issue from IH-Condimirage is/ was (even post staff nerf), that it still could do more than enough dmg just by passive clones and pure defensive dodging. That there is no need and incentive to dodge offensive to make tactical outplays and no incentives/ need for different from pure defensive dodges timed selfbuff and debuff moves. But i explained that rly long enough and often enough already. > > You are at least right in one thing: because staff has some selfbuff elements from might and fury, it is more near to gs than scepter or axe ambush design. BUT still far away because: the might duration is way to long to make an well timed use to prepare a burst combo (what you didn't even needed to do: comboing you just let clones live and cast their autoattacks and ambushes) necessary. When on staff and with staff clones up you generate might perma without the need to think about it. And the dmg part of the ambush was just too mandatory that i never was playing like: Oh lets dodge offensive (that would have been a misplay on condi... imagine that, active gameplay was even punished not only not rewarded on condi IH) to stack some fury to than do a well executed shatter+weaponskills combo. Shatter on condi? Rofl no. You cannot deny that the whole Condimirage gameplay with IH is super spammy and passive in terms of mostly based on clone dmg from normal autoattacks and pure defensive dodges, doesn't need any timing aside form pure defensive dodging and doesn't need any thinking of how to outplay ppl with ambushes and shatter +ambush combos. Just spamming your weaponskills to keep clones up and hit some more not even needed dmg in addition to your clones is not skillful use of cds. It is just spam. You just use the ambushes for dmg and they were strong enough in dmg to not even do any offensive dodge for it. A Powermes being semi afk on a safe spot only spamming dodges for clone ambushes (not using his own ambush) will never kill anything (not even with 3 gs clones up), a pre patch Condimirage could do that. > > Compared to that clone spam feast on IH-condi, IH-Powermirage still needs to use shatter combos and also needs to include ambushes to prepare and improve those shatter combos. Just as utility condis like daze also enable active tactical outplay moves also in need of different timing from pure defensive dodging. Clone alone do barely anything, even on gs. On gs the Mesmers own ambush is just a little bit too strong atm and i already suggested a little nerf to the dmg and maybe even a little nerf to the might/vulnstacks. > > Reworking staff that the condi dmg is not main reason to use it (and so Mirage needs to use shatters to make enough dmg) and rework the might to be more but on shorter duration (2 max 3 secs), so that the main purpose to use staff ambush and clone ambushes from staff would be the self buff to prepare a condishatter burst and not the dmg part itself, then staff would be comparable with gs and it would be skilled and way more active. Sadly atm still not the case. No, the burst came from the F2 high confusion spike, staff ambush were here to put pressure like GS ambush does. Thecnically the power mirage can afk the same way the staff mirage will does. The difference is about numbers, the gameplay involved is the same. Vuln and might do the same power or condi. Staff currently didn't output any damage the only reason to use it is to 2 kite. It was even the case pre patch were only clones auto were doing some pressure after 10 sec setup while staff skill does literraly no pressure, particulary put in parallel with other class same weapon . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bravan.3876 Posted April 2, 2020 Share Posted April 2, 2020 > @"viquing.8254" said: > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > @"viquing.8254" said: > > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > > > > > @"viquing.8254" said: > > > > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > > > No, you got that wrong, i said ty for NOT giving me more nonsense. But whatever xD > > > > > > > > > > > > No, my point is about passive and active nature of ambush/ IH mechanic on Mirage not about that sword ambush is used on the new condi build just as it is used on the powerbuild. The new Condimirage build doesn't even use IH just as it doesn't use a single interrupt trait (so why you want to compare 2 totally different builds in the first place?). **The IH mechanic is that hard overnerfed from the one dodge change that not even the condi playstyle** (what is clearly favored and more passive and more op and way lower skill ceiling with MC/IH/ passive clone ambushes than power ever was) **is using IH anymore**. Means your new beloved Condimirage build is completely irrelevant for the question how active/ passive and skillful condi IH vs power IH Mirage is. We only talk about that in a side step not as main topic. Don't mix that up. > > > > > > > > > > > > As said what you agree too about the factual existing continuum of different active and passive rates from different skills/ traits is irrelevant because the existence of different lvls of passivity and how that determines different types of skill requirement is not denyable. It is not about opinion, it is a fact. My definitions and categorisations are just a tool to put it in words. You can rename it but you cannot get a different result than me. It is simply impossible no matter if you are able to see it or not. The earth is not flat, believe it or not. And the world is not only black and white, there are a lot of different shades of grey also when it comes to active/ passive rates of skill natures. > > > > > > > > > > > > Not to mention that you just deny and for that devalue every skilled and active on purpose play ever happend on Powermirage with IH/ambush mechanic as simple random luck and passive carry. That is just a big rofl. You are not able to utilize it maybe but that is your limitation in skill, it is not fair to devalue active plays clearly happen on Powermirage with IH from all Mesmers just because you are not able to do it. > > > > > > > > > > > > I can believe that it was just random luck as a passive side effect from pure defensive dodge in your case, rly no problem with imagine that xD, but i know and saw and even did it myself here and there to utilize the IH/ambush mechanic on power active and tactical. Reality is rly the prove in itself here. You CAN do and NEED active and on purpose uses of power ambushes for combos and active outplay moves differently timed from pure defensive dodges to play Powermirage on maximum potential (what you clearly don't do, not surprising when you even deny that it is possible). While you have no tools on Condimirage from IH/ambushes for meaningful timed offensive dodges for ambush rewards on condi IH Mirage, you have no need and no incentive to make offensive dodges and for that neither opportunity costs in dodgemanagement nor any activity in the whole mechanic. This difference between power and condi Mirage is a simple fact no matter how stubborn you and others deny it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yeah its very skilled to output GS ambush to stack might/vuln before a burst, very hard to do. Same for putting pressure at range. > > > > > > > If you don't get that before being overnerfed, staff ambush had exactly the same purpose : do a spike of damage, you didn't know anything about mirage. > > > > > > Are you rly that narrowed? Ofc the skill ceiling doesn't come from the fact that you have to press 2 buttons extra before going for a gs or sword shatterburst combo, the skill ceiling comes from the need to know when you can do an offensive dodge without getting punished by downstate and to know when its worth putting even more cds into one brust and when not. Otherwise you can argue that nothing in GW2 needs skill because in the end we all only press buttons. You get more and more stupid here... > > > > > > > > > > - The passivity on condi build has nothing to do with mirage, it's a core problem as clone output condi baseline. > > > > > > > > Another superior wisdom from the Mesmer god can't even understand why Signet of Illusion has a better synergy with Mirage than with core Mesmer! > > > > Gosh that is so wrong it hurts. Ofc it is a Condimirage specific problem based on wrong ambush design. That the problem with passive clone dmg starts in core already is true but doesn't say anything about what Mirage with IH adds as passiveness on top of that for condi builds with the current state of condi ambush design. Seriously your understanding is so bad and low at this point i rly have no way to get to you. > > > > > > Case 1 : you use GS ambush to burst and to stack might and vuln. > > > Case 2 : you use staff ambush to burst and to stack might and cover condi. > > > > > > In the tow cases the best moment you use them, the more efficient they are. > > > I know it hurt but putting appart the condi pressure from clone auto which has nothing to do with mirage, were is the gameplay gap ? > > > > > > > Pre nerf the staff ambush (in particular the clones ones while just dodging defensive) literally was the burst and not just an upstreamed action to support and improve a burst combo following right after. The most valuable play on Condimirage was to let clones live as long as possible and barely shatter them while dodging pure defensive what was already enough dmg to kill. Literally the Condimirage could go brain afk on a safe spot only dodging not even using his own ambush and clones would still have enough dmg to kill. You think that such an insane high basic clone pressure makes winning a fight any hard? Ofc not. And i remember months ago you even agreeed to that, you answered to my post where i explained why Condimirage is too passive and you agreed. I feel like your lvl of understanding is decreasing here, we doing steps back and not forward and it rly starts to annyoy me too much to stay kind... > > > > But that was not my point (talking about staff ambush), my post aimed to your claim, that passivity is only based in core design and that the IH/ condi ambush mechanic itself doesn't add any passivity (what contradicts your own claims of how passive power ambushes are btw but who cares about logic)... > > > > But the main issue from IH-Condimirage is/ was (even post staff nerf), that it still could do more than enough dmg just by passive clones and pure defensive dodging. That there is no need and incentive to dodge offensive to make tactical outplays and no incentives/ need for different from pure defensive dodges timed selfbuff and debuff moves. But i explained that rly long enough and often enough already. > > > > You are at least right in one thing: because staff has some selfbuff elements from might and fury, it is more near to gs than scepter or axe ambush design. BUT still far away because: the might duration is way to long to make an well timed use to prepare a burst combo (what you didn't even needed to do: comboing you just let clones live and cast their autoattacks and ambushes) necessary. When on staff and with staff clones up you generate might perma without the need to think about it. And the dmg part of the ambush was just too mandatory that i never was playing like: Oh lets dodge offensive (that would have been a misplay on condi... imagine that, active gameplay was even punished not only not rewarded on condi IH) to stack some fury to than do a well executed shatter+weaponskills combo. Shatter on condi? Rofl no. You cannot deny that the whole Condimirage gameplay with IH is super spammy and passive in terms of mostly based on clone dmg from normal autoattacks and pure defensive dodges, doesn't need any timing aside form pure defensive dodging and doesn't need any thinking of how to outplay ppl with ambushes and shatter +ambush combos. Just spamming your weaponskills to keep clones up and hit some more not even needed dmg in addition to your clones is not skillful use of cds. It is just spam. You just use the ambushes for dmg and they were strong enough in dmg to not even do any offensive dodge for it. A Powermes being semi afk on a safe spot only spamming dodges for clone ambushes (not using his own ambush) will never kill anything (not even with 3 gs clones up), a pre patch Condimirage could do that. > > > > Compared to that clone spam feast on IH-condi, IH-Powermirage still needs to use shatter combos and also needs to include ambushes to prepare and improve those shatter combos. Just as utility condis like daze also enable active tactical outplay moves also in need of different timing from pure defensive dodging. Clone alone do barely anything, even on gs. On gs the Mesmers own ambush is just a little bit too strong atm and i already suggested a little nerf to the dmg and maybe even a little nerf to the might/vulnstacks. > > > > Reworking staff that the condi dmg is not main reason to use it (and so Mirage needs to use shatters to make enough dmg) and rework the might to be more but on shorter duration (2 max 3 secs), so that the main purpose to use staff ambush and clone ambushes from staff would be the self buff to prepare a condishatter burst and not the dmg part itself, then staff would be comparable with gs and it would be skilled and way more active. Sadly atm still not the case. > > No, the burst came from the F2 high confusion spike, staff ambush were here to put pressure like GS ambush does. > Thecnically the power mirage can afk the same way the staff mirage will does. The difference is about numbers, the gameplay involved is the same. > > Vuln and might do the same power or condi. > > Staff currently didn't output any damage the only reason to use it is to 2 kite. It was even the case pre patch were only clones auto were doing some pressure after 10 sec setup while staff skill does literraly no pressure, particulary put in parallel with other class same weapon . > > > > > > > Ok so why we all (incl you) complained about Mesmer doesn't have enough condi dmg on shatters anymore few weeks ago? Why we all complained that Condimirage has too much passive clone dmg but is pressured into that passive playstyle because of barely any condi dmg on shatters? I played Condimesmer and you only used f2 when you had still 3 clones up and no cds on clone generating skills to not overwrite them with each other (or when you could finish a target with it), you didn't need to combo any shatter with ambushes at all and you also never needed to dodge offensive on Condimirage, something we all agreed few weeks ago. And no, Powermes only dodging on gs without using his own ambush has way less pressure than a dodging Condimirage. Even a Condimirage not dodging at all could do high pressure by normal clone autoattacks already and killed me in less then 20 sec being afk with 1-2 clones up only (ofc i didn't condi cleanse for sciece purpose to just see the passive pressure from normal autoattacks already aside from ambush clone dmg from defensive dodging). And ofc staff clone ambushes did/ do high dmg. Ofc less after nerf but still. Your claims are simply not true and even contradict each other depending on what we talk about and how you want reality to be. It is insane. You just claim stuff the way you need it. How narrowed is that, when i have a build that has high passive pressure already than ofc it is way easier to play, in particular when in addition i also only can play completely defensive because offensive and active use of IH/ ambush is even a missplay on condi while needed on power to even get enough pressure. Ofc a build that doesn't need to combo with shatters (because clones have more value when you let them live) and also doesn't need to combo with ambushes is for that reason easier to play. You have no opportunity costs in dodge management and in the decision making when to use more skills for offensive pressure or defensive plays or when to use dodges for tactical outplays instead only evading attacks. Because condi ambushes are only about dmg and also op in terms of how much dmg they provide on clone ambushes. Condi IH is way more passive and way easier to play than power IH. There is a reason barely anyone can play Power IH on maximum potential, while playing IH condi every noob could play rewarding and that not only in terms of surviving but also in terms of too easy applied and too passive applied offensive pressure and impact. There is a reason you see a way bigger difference between an average, good and very good player on power while you hardly could see a difference between any skill lvl on condi IH. Fact is, Condi IH was way easier to play for several reasons, first the dmg application was way more passive on condi IH than on power IH, this more passive dmg was also higher than the overall dmg from a Powermirage so it could easier spec into a passive defensive traitline in addition to the not existing need to dodge offensive ever. Means in terms of offensive and defensive play condi was way easier to play. And everyone unbiaed trying both playstyles could easy feel the difference in skill ceiling and impact (more reward with less effort and less skill requirement). Powermirage is not only easier to kill, it has also way more options for and way more NEED to do active and tactical outplays with ambushes and way more difficult ways and combos to apply dmg than condi IH. And for that higher opportunity costs not only in dodge management (when can i dodge offensive and when better save a dodge for simple attack evade) but also in how many cds i combine and use for an offensive or defensive move, while Condimirage just can dodges only defensive. I can't believe that is so hard to see and understand. Yes numbers are relevant, too high dmg on dodge traits make the trait more passive. That is exactly one reason why condi is more passive and easier to play (clones do most of your work here, on power that is clearly not the case) but the other reason in particular on axe/scepter is, that they do not have anything else to offer aside from the pure dmg, no utility effect makes different timing from defensive dodging or comboing with other skills necessary at all. No utility effects giving the ability to make active and tactical outplay moves with it at all. Also no need and incentive to combo ambushes with anything else. A Condimirage simply dodging defensive, and braindead random spamming skills was almost as effective and impactful than a good Condimirage. While a bad Powermirage is not only perma dead, he also has way less impact in a fight or in a match during the time he is alive (compared to a good Powermirage). Condi IH, from its mechanic itself, could be as active as power when the ambushes on staff, scepter and axe would be different designed and i made suggestions for a rework but currently the condi ambushes are wrong designed (staff the least but still also too passive for mentioned reason in my previous post). **But ok lets just summon what we have learnt from all the Mesmer gods in this thread:** Power IH as mechanic is just as passive and braindead as condi (we just ignore the combo need and ability with ambushes and shatters you have on power but not on condi IH Mirage, we also ignore that on power you at least can do additional tactical and active outplay moves with ambushes, in particular on sword) The only difference betwen power and condi IH Mirage was/is, that condi could stack more defensive traitlines because of higher passive clone pressure (wait what?) and still do op dmg (lets not start to think about WHY that is the case and where this is coming from and how this is lowering skill ceiling too rofl). I guess it is time to tell the community that making guides or any other educational content about IH-Mirage (also Powermirage) is useless, there are no more combos than on core, there are no more and other tactical and active outplay moves possible on Powermirage than on core Powermesmer or IH-Condimirage. Thus there is no need to learn anything about Powermirage (learn to play Corepowermes and you can play Mirage on same skill lvl, ez! Wait no... you can play Mirage even better then because all that Mirage adds is some passive clone carry, means a good Coreshatter player will be a god on Mirage! ...Actually the opposite is true but who cares about reality). Any guide about Mirage specific combos simply lied to you. Don't believe any charlatan, telling you the clone daze was not rdm but on purpose or when they want to tell you how to make different combos including ambushes on Mirage to higher your impact and dmg to a lvl that is at least near to a Coremesmer. Just play it like a Coremes and enjoy the passive carry from clones during pure defensive dodging, nothing more to see here xD (again i am not surprised anymore that most Powermirages suck so hard, even the ones you know are good with core power shatter usually, because just stealthing and non reactive oneshotting is so much easier to do, while spamming gs ambush is all they can see and do as additional play on Mirage). Pretty simplyfied and very reduces view on that spec but ok. As said all the on purpose active plays even i could manage to do myself here and there were just an illusion all along. Ty again for letting me know what happend in my mind during playing, letting me know what i did on purpose and active for tactical outplays (nothing at all it seems) and what not (everything, means all was just lucky random clone ambush procs at good moments). It was all just lucky passive clone carry. Lets tell all Powermirages that they suck when they need to play Mirage to get carried by passive IH mechanic. I think some Powermirage player have missed that until now. Still lying to themself that they do skillful and active plays with Mirage mechanic, how can they? Noobs! Also Anet pls just delete this braindead and skillless spec, Mesmer mains just told you, that it is not playable in any skillful and active way when using basic Mirage mechanics (what literally is IH, without IH it is only a Coremes with more mobility and some passive sustain added, and not rly a spec with different playstyle but hell ppl do not even get that, so who cares? In that regard the one dodge change was even fine, there was no skill ceiling that got deleted by it xD). The IH/ ambush mechanic is always equally and 100% passive no matter how ambushes are designed. Ambush design in terms of how high or low ambush dmg is and in terms of what type of ambush rewards is included (utility effects vs pure dmg) has ZERO effect on anything in terms of skill requirement and active/ passive rate of the mechanic. Nothing!!! Just give staff clones 3000000 dmg on ambush because it doesn't make the playstyle easier and more passive, it is just a difference in numbers, isn't it? Balacing your narrowed world would be so much easier than in reality :joy: Logic at its best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
viquing.8254 Posted April 2, 2020 Share Posted April 2, 2020 > @"bravan.3876" said: > > @"viquing.8254" said: > > > > No, the burst came from the F2 high confusion spike, staff ambush were here to put pressure like GS ambush does. > > Thecnically the power mirage can afk the same way the staff mirage will does. The difference is about numbers, the gameplay involved is the same. > > > > Vuln and might do the same power or condi. > > > > Staff currently didn't output any damage the only reason to use it is to 2 kite. It was even the case pre patch were only clones auto were doing some pressure after 10 sec setup while staff skill does literraly no pressure, particulary put in parallel with other class same weapon . > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ok so why we all (incl you) complained about Mesmer doesn't have enough condi dmg on shatters anymore few weeks ago? Why we all complained that Condimirage has too much passive clone dmg but is pressured into that passive playstyle because of barely any condi dmg on shatters? I played Condimesmer and you only used f2 when you had still 3 clones up and no cds on clone generating skills to not overwrite them with each other (or when you could finish a target with it), you didn't need to combo any shatter with ambushes at all and you also never needed to dodge offensive on Condimirage, something we all agreed few weeks ago. And no, Powermes only dodging on gs without using his own ambush has way less pressure than a dodging Condimirage. Even a Condimirage not dodging at all could do high pressure by normal clone autoattacks already and killed me in less then 20 sec being afk with 1-2 clones up only (ofc i didn't condi cleanse for sciece purpose to just see the passive pressure from normal autoattacks already aside from ambush clone dmg from defensive dodging). And ofc staff clone ambushes did/ do high dmg. Ofc less after nerf but still. Your claims are simply not true and even contradict each other depending on what we talk about and how you want reality to be. It is insane. You just claim stuff the way you need it. Because we are talking before the active confusion nerf, not about the pre-patch condi from clone auto. Hopefully you don't F2 only when 3 clones up considering the clone average life duration. Powermes only dodging does less pressure only because of numbers output, not because of gameplay or concept differences. And today the even the number difference isn't that hudge. Why did you repeat what I already state that condi came from clone auto ? You want to look smart ? > How narrowed is that, when i have a build that has high passive pressure already than ofc it is way easier to play, in particular when in addition i also only can play completely defensive because offensive and active use of IH/ ambush is even a missplay on condi while needed on power to even get enough pressure. Ofc a build that doesn't need to combo with shatters (because clones have more value when you let them live) and also doesn't need to combo with ambushes is for that reason easier to play. You have no opportunity costs in dodge management and in the decision making when to use more skills for offensive pressure or defensive plays or when to use dodges for tactical outplays instead only evading attacks. Because condi ambushes are only about dmg and also op in terms of how much dmg they provide on clone ambushes. Condi IH is way more passive and way easier to play than power IH. There is a reason barely anyone can play Power IH on maximum potential, while playing IH condi every noob could play rewarding and that not only in terms of surviving but also in terms of too easy applied and too passive applied offensive pressure and impact. There is a reason you see a way bigger difference between an average, good and very good player on power while you hardly could see a difference between any skill lvl on condi IH. Which has nothing to do with ambush gameplay but with core clone condi application. > Fact is, Condi IH was way easier to play for several reasons, first the dmg application was way more passive on condi IH than on power IH, this more passive dmg was also higher than the overall dmg from a Powermirage so it could easier spec into a passive defensive traitline in addition to the not existing need to dodge offensive ever. Means in terms of offensive and defensive play condi was way easier to play. And everyone unbiaed trying both playstyles could easy feel the difference in skill ceiling and impact (more reward with less effort and less skill requirement). Powermirage is not only easier to kill, it has also way more options for and way more NEED to do active and tactical outplays with ambushes and way more difficult ways and combos to apply dmg than condi IH. And for that higher opportunity costs not only in dodge management (when can i dodge offensive and when better save a dodge for simple attack evade) but also in how many cds i combine and use for an offensive or defensive move, while Condimirage just can dodges only defensive. I can't believe that is so hard to see and understand. No, fact is that in the two cases : > @"viquing.8254" said : > Case 1 : you use GS ambush to burst and to stack might and vuln. > Case 2 : you use staff ambush to burst and to stack might and cover condi. > > In the two cases the best moment you use them, the more efficient they are. > I know it hurt but putting appart the condi pressure from clone auto which has nothing to do with mirage, where is the gameplay gap ? a > Yes numbers are relevant, too high dmg on dodge traits make the trait more passive. That is exactly one reason why condi is more passive and easier to play (clones do most of your work here, on power that is clearly not the case) but the other reason in particular on axe/scepter is, that they do not have anything else to offer aside from the pure dmg, no utility effect makes different timing from defensive dodging or comboing with other skills necessary at all. No utility effects giving the ability to make active and tactical outplay moves with it at all. Also no need and incentive to combo ambushes with anything else. A Condimirage simply dodging defensive, and braindead random spamming skills was almost as effective and impactful than a good Condimirage. While a bad Powermirage is not only perma dead, he also has way less impact in a fight or in a match during the time he is alive (compared to a good Powermirage). Condi IH, from its mechanic itself, could be as active as power when the ambushes on staff, scepter and axe would be different designed and i made suggestions for a rework but currently the condi ambushes are wrong designed (staff the least but still also too passive for mentioned reason in my previous post). In the two cases, the concept is the same, only the number output is different and staff ambush is way more counterable than GS ambush, here is the pure logic. But continue thinking that they are different because of POWER and CONDI, looks fun. > **But ok lets just summon what we have learnt from all the Mesmer gods in this thread:** > > Power IH as mechanic is just as passive and braindead as condi (we just ignore the combo need and ability with ambushes and shatters you have on power but not on condi IH Mirage, we also ignore that on power you at least can do additional tactical and active outplay moves with ambushes, in particular on sword) > The only difference betwen power and condi IH Mirage was/is, that condi could stack more defensive traitlines because of higher passive clone pressure (wait what?) and still do op dmg (lets not start to think about WHY that is the case and where this is coming from and how this is lowering skill ceiling too rofl). We are talking about the gameplay involved, don't try to justify your mistakes by talking about other things correlated to the numbers output. > I guess it is time to tell the community that making guides or any other educational content about IH-Mirage (also Powermirage) is useless, there are no more combos than on core, there are no more and other tactical and active outplay moves possible on Powermirage than on core Powermesmer or IH-Condimirage. Thus there is no need to learn anything about Powermirage (learn to play Corepowermes and you can play Mirage on same skill lvl, ez! Wait no... you can play Mirage even better then because all that Mirage adds is some passive clone carry, means a good Coreshatter player will be a god on Mirage! ...Actually the opposite is true but who cares about reality). Yeah a good shatter will be a good mirage because the burst which take the high part in the two case is at 80% the same. > Any guide about Mirage specific combos simply lied to you. Don't believe any charlatan, telling you the clone daze was not rdm but on purpose or when they want to tell you how to make different combos including ambushes on Mirage to higher your impact and dmg to a lvl that is at least near to a Coremesmer. Just play it like a Coremes and enjoy the passive carry from clones during pure defensive dodging, nothing more to see here xD (again i am not surprised anymore that most Powermirages suck so hard, even the ones you know are good with core power shatter usually, because just stealthing and non reactive oneshotting is so much easier to do, while spamming gs ambush is all they can see and do as additional play on Mirage). Pretty simplyfied and very reduces view on that spec but ok. As said all the on purpose active plays even i could manage to do myself here and there were just an illusion all along. Ty again for letting me know what happend in my mind during playing, letting me know what i did on purpose and active for tactical outplays (nothing at all it seems) and what not (everything, means all was just lucky random clone ambush procs at good moments). It was all just lucky passive clone carry. Lets tell all Powermirages that they suck when they need to play Mirage to get carried by passive IH mechanic. I think some Powermirage player have missed that until now. Still lying to themself that they do skillful and active plays with Mirage mechanic, how can they? Noobs! All powermirages says they play the build for fun, not to be competitive, so yeah, there is reasons behind that. And yeah a 1.5 sec daze who has to relie on clone being alive and opponenent not being on aoe and at range, neither moving is unreliable. > Also Anet pls just delete this braindead and skillless spec, Mesmer mains just told you, that it is not playable in any skillful and active way when using basic Mirage mechanics (what literally is IH, without IH it is only a Coremes with more mobility and some passive sustain added, and not rly a spec with different playstyle but hell ppl do not even get that, so who cares? In that regard the one dodge change was even fine, there was no skill ceiling that got deleted by it xD). That's why I say that since the beginning, the most gameplay defining trait of mirage is the mobility compared to core : - Sword ambush is most used for the mobility than for the rupt part, even on top powermirages. - Jaunt is about mobility. - 3 deceptions skills about 5 are about mobility. Since PoF launch mirage is more mobile than a core mes and in a 5v5 game with point rotation, it's one of the key to sucess. > The IH/ ambush mechanic is always equally and 100% passive no matter how ambushes are designed. Ambush design in terms of how high or low ambush dmg is and in terms of what type of ambush rewards is included (utility effects vs pure dmg) has ZERO effect on anything in terms of skill requirement and active/ passive rate of the mechanic. Nothing!!! Just give staff clones 3000000 dmg on ambush because it doesn't make the playstyle easier and more passive, it is just a difference in numbers, isn't it? Balacing your narrowed world would be so much easier than in reality :joy: > Logic at its best. No, the IH/ambush mechanic isn't passive, neitheir it's more skilled because it's POWER. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bravan.3876 Posted April 2, 2020 Share Posted April 2, 2020 I give up @"viquing.8254" you either can't or will not understand. It is rly a waste of time. Btw i forgot some other big wisdoms we got taught by the Mesmer gods in this thread: - IH/ ambushes and dodge traits are always no matter what and no matter how designed 100% active (confused? no why! 5 Mesmer mains ->10 opinions xD All true ofc because each of those Mesmer mains is smarter than the other, while they probably even thumb up each others contradicting opinions without realizing :joy: . The only for certain wrong one is my analysis ofc, the one PoV with the scientific approach and free from bias and limitation of my own skill lvl [aka Viquing want to call all builds equally hard to play to not feel so bad when playing low skill ceiling builds carrying him] or any biased class hate or love, the one puts the analysis of dodgetraits and ambushmechanic in a more detailed and differentiating perspective, putting skill natures in relation to influencing/ interacting factors, sadly just that this is obviously way above the IQ and gameknowledge from most ppl left in this casual game. And ofc it is totally wrong because i am the not main player here). So decide yourself which Memer main you want to believe, that dodgetraits in general and the ambush IH mechanic in particular is either 100% active or 100% passive and that even no matter how they are designed xD Black-white, black-white - the world seems so easy when watching black-white TV! - and ofc old CI trait was balanced skill design and still more useless than useful even on Condimirage because every other evil class could perma clease and perma stunbreak aside from having perma stabi and aside from having 100000 ways of backing themself up and ofc interupting heals even with Powerblock is no big deal for all the op classes running around, they just start another "tempo" skill (lul what?) - Viquing god also taught us that Signet of Illusion has no better synergy to Mirage than to core. That was an illusion all along too. - Leo god taught us, that skilltypes which are not single target projectiles are THE EVIl and per se passive. Passive guys hold your breath, the moment you use an aoe or a non projectile skill you are already carried by passives! Shortbow spam on Thief is the most skillful thing in the game than i guess xDDD Except from Thief sb2 ofc, that is an evil and passive aoe! - the only passive part from Condi mes comes from normal clone autoattacks, nothing else, Mirage does not add any passivitiy on top of that. In case i forgot another great wisdom showing insane class and game understanding feel free to add it. At this point i am too lazy to reread all the nonsense i had to attend/ witness here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
viquing.8254 Posted April 2, 2020 Share Posted April 2, 2020 > @"bravan.3876" said: > I give up @"viquing.8254" you either can't or will not understand. It is rly a waste of time. > > Btw i forgot some other big wisdoms we got taught by the Mesmer gods in this thread: > > - IH/ ambushes and dodge traits are always no matter what and no matter how desinged 100% active (confused? no why! 5 Mesmer mains 10 opinions xD All true ofc because each of those Mesmer mains is smarter than the other :joy: . The only for certain wrong one is my analysis ofc, the one PoV with the scientific approach and free from bias and limitation of my own skill lvl [aka Viquing want to call all builds equally hard to play to not feel so bad when playing low skill ceiling builds carrying him] or any class hate or love, the one puts the analysis of dodgetraits and ambushmechanic in a more detailed and differentiating perspective, putting skill natures in relation to influencing/ interacting factors, sadly just that this is obviously way above the IQ and gameknowledge from most ppl left in the game. And ofc it is totally wrong because i am the not main player here). So decide yourself which Memer main you want to believe, that dodgetraits in general and the ambush IH mechanic in particular is either 100% active or 100% passive and that even no matter how they are designed xD > - Viquing god also taught us that Signet of Illusion has no better synergy to Mirage than to core. That was an illusion all along too. > - Leo god taught us, that skilltypes which are not single target projectiles are THE EVIl and per se passive. paasive guys hold your breath, the moment you use an aoe or a non projectile skill you are already carried by passives! Shortbow spam on Thief is the most skillful thing in the game than i guess xDDD Except from Thief sb2 ofc, that is an evil and passive aoe! > > In case i forgot another great wisdom showing insane class and game understanding feel free to add it. At this point i am too lazy to reread all the nonsense i had to attend/ witness here. > The diffuculty of the build has to do with output number, and what come in parallel : In the case of staff ambush versus GS ambush : condi ambush did more damage than power ambush at the beginning AND clone auto did condi pressure which act as cover. It has nothing to do with activating an ambush but continue to sink into bad faith just trying to feel you are right about you logic. Ho and if you remind it, when staff ambush were a think, mirages has to combo it with jaunt to make it hit because the very slow and visible projectile would never hit otherwise, That's also why CI was a thing. Which was never the case with the so "skilled" GS ambush that you just have to time it right. Since staff ambush didn't get any value, IH was just used to save clones from aoe letting then put condi with their auto which is the passive play and which has NOTHING to do with mirage or ambush as it was core based. Sorry but trying to discredit people why having a wobbly logic isn't the best thing you can do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bravan.3876 Posted April 2, 2020 Share Posted April 2, 2020 > @"viquing.8254" said: > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > I give up @"viquing.8254" you either can't or will not understand. It is rly a waste of time. > > > > Btw i forgot some other big wisdoms we got taught by the Mesmer gods in this thread: > > > > - IH/ ambushes and dodge traits are always no matter what and no matter how desinged 100% active (confused? no why! 5 Mesmer mains 10 opinions xD All true ofc because each of those Mesmer mains is smarter than the other :joy: . The only for certain wrong one is my analysis ofc, the one PoV with the scientific approach and free from bias and limitation of my own skill lvl [aka Viquing want to call all builds equally hard to play to not feel so bad when playing low skill ceiling builds carrying him] or any class hate or love, the one puts the analysis of dodgetraits and ambushmechanic in a more detailed and differentiating perspective, putting skill natures in relation to influencing/ interacting factors, sadly just that this is obviously way above the IQ and gameknowledge from most ppl left in the game. And ofc it is totally wrong because i am the not main player here). So decide yourself which Memer main you want to believe, that dodgetraits in general and the ambush IH mechanic in particular is either 100% active or 100% passive and that even no matter how they are designed xD > > - Viquing god also taught us that Signet of Illusion has no better synergy to Mirage than to core. That was an illusion all along too. > > - Leo god taught us, that skilltypes which are not single target projectiles are THE EVIl and per se passive. paasive guys hold your breath, the moment you use an aoe or a non projectile skill you are already carried by passives! Shortbow spam on Thief is the most skillful thing in the game than i guess xDDD Except from Thief sb2 ofc, that is an evil and passive aoe! > > > > In case i forgot another great wisdom showing insane class and game understanding feel free to add it. At this point i am too lazy to reread all the nonsense i had to attend/ witness here. > > > > The diffuculty of the build has to do with output number, and what come in parallel : > In the case of staff ambush versus GS ambush : condi ambush did more damage than power ambush at the beginning AND clone auto did condi pressure which act as cover. > It has nothing to do with activating an ambush but continue to sink into bad faith just trying to feel you are right about you logic. > Ho and if you remind it, when staff ambush were a think, mirages has to combo it with jaunt to make it hit because the very slow and visible projectile would never hit otherwise, That's also why CI was a thing. Which was never the case with the so "skilled" GS ambush that you just have to time it right. > Since staff ambush didn't get any value, IH was just used to save clones from aoe letting then put condi with their auto which is the passive play and which has NOTHING to do with mirage or ambush as it was core based. > > Sorry but trying to discredit people why having a wobbly logic isn't the best thing you can do. Bro you don't even get the basics (for example that it is exactly my point that passivity /activity rate of dodge traits and ambushes are affected by dmg numbers/ effect durations AND mechanical design and current condi ambushes have per se a subpar design that is why i said a mechanical rework would be the best but they also have wrong numbers in dmg or effect duration [the selfbuff effect from might on staff is too long in duration and too omnipresent by simple autoattack and ambush spam, no Condimirage ever dodges offensive on staff to prepare a burst shatter combo, because there was not even a value to use shatters for dmg most of the time and becasue it simply was NOT NEEDED to have big impact and win fights easy, it would have been a waste of dodge ressources even]. Too big dmg on clone ambushes are ofc part of the problem leading to higher passivity and lower skill ceiling and the one ambush, on staff, what at least has another utiltiy effect for selfbuffs sadly miss the equilibrium margin to make that more active than passive. Just as i explained why dodge traits rewards need to hit this equilibrium margin of not being too strong but also not too weak so that they create the need and incentive to dodge offensive instead only pure defensive (when the dodge reward is too weak it doesn't worth an offensive dodge, ergo no Mesmer would dodge offensive for that because that would be a waste of ressources, when the dodge trait reward is too strong that no player needs to think about offensive dodges either because the rewards from the dodgetrait is already big enough when only dodging pure defensive. Ergo too weak or too strong dodgetrait rewards always lead into higher passivity and lower skill ceiling. The best dodge traits and the least passive (highest skill ceiling) dodgetraits are the ones creating the ABILITY and NEED for different outplay moves and different combos by being more about effects/ utilities and not just pure dmg (the same suggested for Ranger pets for the same reasons). That is atm only given for power ambushes (with the little need of reducing gs ambush from the Mirage itself, not from clones, a little bit). Simple fact. A pure on dmg relying dodge trait is per se harder to balance into an more active trait but it is possible when the dmg/effect duration numbers are in the equilibrium margin (what is not the case for condi ambushes atm). Better would be a mechanic change to more utility based effects instead only pure dmg to add even more activity by creating the need and the reward to make active tactical outplays with those utility ambush, rewards differently timed from pure defensive dodges uses of energy ressources. It is rly that easy to understand but you and others tryhard to miss it. It is impossible to talk to you, believe what you want, i don't care anymore, seriously i am burned out by that stupidity, stubbornness and narrowness. Look at the game in the way it fits your wishes. I am done here for now. I added my previous post with some more stuff to laugh about btw xD It would be a good joke at least, when not being that sad in terms of how unlogical you guys are in this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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