Quadox.7834 Posted March 30, 2020 Share Posted March 30, 2020 backstab was nerfed by 25% which is reasonably in line with other nerfs, for example phantasmal berserker was nerfed ~35%. The problem is that those who think thief does dmg are generally playing mes or zerk ele or some other squishy, so they don't see the perspective of thief vs necro or thief vs prot holo. Trust me, on power mes I also feel like I do 0 dmg vs these tanky metaspecs. I feel like a lot of you of you could put past your differences and unite in your dislike of unkillable bruisers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killthehealersffs.8940 Posted March 30, 2020 Share Posted March 30, 2020 > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > @"Killthehealersffs.8940" said: > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > @"Killthehealersffs.8940" said: > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > @"Killthehealersffs.8940" said: > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > @"Tayga.3192" said: > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > I kinda wish thieves role wasnt solid in concrete. Itd be nice to have a thief that can actually be a competent duelist, but I guess as long as shortbow 5 exists, thats a pipedream. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Make a thread "Remove Shortbow 5" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Too many people enjoy the playstyle shortbow 5 provides. Im not selfish enough to take away their toy so I can have mine. Besides, I do have other classes I can play and enjoy playing, and its what Ive been doing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > AFAIK, mirage was supposed to be a duelist thief. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thief was supposed to the duelist thief. Hell, their original introduction even called them "Deadly duelists". For a long time, they even were. They just lost power over time before becoming what they are today. Mirage does have similarities to thief (arguably doing stealth attacks better than actual stealth attacks, because instead of needing to go into stealth, which takes a long time and is just free damage, you simply enter mirage cloak which prevents you from being hit and can be as fast as instant), but theyre still on a different axis. > > > > > > > > > > > > mirage cloak .... its a dodge which doesnt give the extra distance travel of a normal dodge ... he cannot come closer faster ... you know where he is ..he cannot escape the aoes+slow radius while in stealth > > > > > > > > > > It gives extra movement speed. I think total distance covered during it is *slightly* less than a dodge? Not sure, I didnt care to memorize the numbers. And yeah he can come closer faster. And he doesnt need to escape anything, he is dodging the damage. > > > > > > > > > > > Thief has 3 dodges in the spec of Daredevil , that allow you to reposition away from them . > > > > > > > > > > > > Other mesmer stealth have a huge cd ...and the dont offer a leap mechanic (Blackpowder + Heartsseker ) , to come faster at you or run away > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Were not talking about stealth. Were talking about stealth *attacks*. Pretty much the only reason to use stealth. Ambushes are better stealth attacks. Conceptually, at any rate. There is a reason backstab and sneak attack are the only ones that see play (oh and DJ, but only once they forced it into a stealth attack). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Its exactly the same mobility as walking , you simply get ''an immune'' to incoming attacks''buffs . > > > > When in combat your movement speed it reduced dramatically . > > > > Dodging in all classes , ignores any slow/cripple effects and allow to reposition yourself out of the aoes > > > > > > > > Do not lie to me again > > > > > > Not wise to talk about a class you dont know the traits off. Grandmaster minor, Speed of Sand. Mirage cloak grants 66% increased movement speed. They move significantly faster. > > > > Funny , neither should you :) > > Because its 66% out of combat and more likely 30-31% in combat , while the ones having Swiftness are dropped to 25% > > And when you have cripple/slow , the benefit drops to 2-3% > > > > ... no, thats not how it works. Its 66% of your current movement speed added. Thats it. Dont worry , i havent played Warhammer REckoning for 7 years and dont know its rules too Out of combat : If a class like Rev have the 15% increase speed (from upkeep) + Swiftness on him = they dont add up to 45% speed . The bigger value gets the spotlight ... in this case the Swiftness wins . If the Rev would used the Runes of Traveler , that had the 66% speed , then he wouldnt get 66+33+15% , instead the bigger the number its the winner and overshadow the others ..... 66% Wins If he had Superpeed ..well he would travel 66% and ignore slow. In combat : All these effects are tremendously scaled down If you have Swiftness from 33% you scale down to 25% Superspeed from 66% are dropped to 40% Runes of speed / or any other + 66% , is between those 2 values And if you are slowed , the difference between those 2 is minmal 25% speed / 50% slow = 12,5% speed 31% speed (out of combat 66%) /50 % slow = 15.5% And have 0 dodge left for the Mirage Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odik.4587 Posted March 30, 2020 Share Posted March 30, 2020 > @"Crab Fear.1624" said: > > @"Odik.4587" said: > > > @"Crab Fear.1624" said: > > > > @"Tayga.3192" said: > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > I kinda wish thieves role wasnt solid in concrete. Itd be nice to have a thief that can actually be a competent duelist, but I guess as long as shortbow 5 exists, thats a pipedream. > > > > > > > > Make a thread "Remove Shortbow 5" > > > > > > > > AFAIK, mirage was supposed to be a duelist thief. > > > > > > Mesmer was supposed to be a duelist, it is in their core description. > > > > > > The mobility part was not. > > > > > > Chop at mobility and beef up dueling. > > What mobility you want to remove?????? Blink? And it would be less mobile than necromancer. :joy: > > They can remove the leap off sword for mirage, but I was talking in general though. > > But mirage will still have more invuln, evades, detargets and stealth than a necro. > > When mirage had 2 dodges, a power mirage was very mobile. > > They can look into beefing the dueling, but ranged escape can not go up from here. I got you there. You are basically mad that the only ONE person in both regions played power, feeling insulted that mirage could have mobility to compete with a thief, because no one should be as fast as the thief, OK. I didnt find anything in thief description saying they are should have unmatched mobility among all other classes. Delete shadowsteps/sb5/rifle4 on DE. Lets balance by the stupid descriptions as you suggest, why not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odik.4587 Posted March 30, 2020 Share Posted March 30, 2020 > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > @"Killthehealersffs.8940" said: > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > @"Killthehealersffs.8940" said: > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > @"Tayga.3192" said: > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > I kinda wish thieves role wasnt solid in concrete. Itd be nice to have a thief that can actually be a competent duelist, but I guess as long as shortbow 5 exists, thats a pipedream. > > > > > > > > > > > > Make a thread "Remove Shortbow 5" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Too many people enjoy the playstyle shortbow 5 provides. Im not selfish enough to take away their toy so I can have mine. Besides, I do have other classes I can play and enjoy playing, and its what Ive been doing. > > > > > > > > > > > AFAIK, mirage was supposed to be a duelist thief. > > > > > > > > > > Thief was supposed to the duelist thief. Hell, their original introduction even called them "Deadly duelists". For a long time, they even were. They just lost power over time before becoming what they are today. Mirage does have similarities to thief (arguably doing stealth attacks better than actual stealth attacks, because instead of needing to go into stealth, which takes a long time and is just free damage, you simply enter mirage cloak which prevents you from being hit and can be as fast as instant), but theyre still on a different axis. > > > > > > > > mirage cloak .... its a dodge which doesnt give the extra distance travel of a normal dodge ... he cannot come closer faster ... you know where he is ..he cannot escape the aoes+slow radius while in stealth > > > > > > It gives extra movement speed. I think total distance covered during it is *slightly* less than a dodge? Not sure, I didnt care to memorize the numbers. And yeah he can come closer faster. And he doesnt need to escape anything, he is dodging the damage. > > > > > > > Thief has 3 dodges in the spec of Daredevil , that allow you to reposition away from them . > > > > > > > > Other mesmer stealth have a huge cd ...and the dont offer a leap mechanic (Blackpowder + Heartsseker ) , to come faster at you or run away > > > > > > > > > > Were not talking about stealth. Were talking about stealth *attacks*. Pretty much the only reason to use stealth. Ambushes are better stealth attacks. Conceptually, at any rate. There is a reason backstab and sneak attack are the only ones that see play (oh and DJ, but only once they forced it into a stealth attack). > > > > > > > > > > > > > Its exactly the same mobility as walking , you simply get ''an immune'' to incoming attacks''buffs . > > When in combat your movement speed it reduced dramatically . > > Dodging in all classes , ignores any slow/cripple effects and allow to reposition yourself out of the aoes > > > > Do not lie to me again > > Not wise to talk about a class you dont know the traits off. Grandmaster minor, Speed of Sand. Mirage cloak grants 66% increased movement speed. **They move significantly faster.** You were proven wrong by @"Cyninja.2954" in the other thread, I think in "mesmer need buffs" with math attached to it. Short memory ? As this guy mentioned its also reduced by cripple/chill even further. Not wise to talk about a class you have no clue about, nanana. I know, I know, I shouldnt respond, I will behave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tayga.3192 Posted March 30, 2020 Share Posted March 30, 2020 > @"Killthehealersffs.8940" said: > snip To back you up, this is from wiki: "Movement Speed increases do not stack with each other—only the greatest value takes effect. For example, a character under the effect of Signet of Air (+25%) and swiftness (+33%) will only move 33% faster." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killthehealersffs.8940 Posted March 30, 2020 Share Posted March 30, 2020 > @"Tayga.3192" said: > > @"Killthehealersffs.8940" said: > > snip > > To back you up, this is from wiki: "Movement Speed increases do not stack with each other—only the greatest value takes effect. For example, a character under the effect of Signet of Air (+25%) and swiftness (+33%) will only move 33% faster." Yeah ...you know today friends , tommorow enemies if my moto .... So... thanks for the support ... but less keep our distances :P Edit: CMC just contact Caed + Sindrener ... and buff thief ....but because it has Iniatiave resources and you want to showcase the smoothness of the Engine ...atleast make it so the majority cannot operate it ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNOwen.7132 Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 > @"Odik.4587" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > @"Killthehealersffs.8940" said: > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > @"Killthehealersffs.8940" said: > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > @"Tayga.3192" said: > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > I kinda wish thieves role wasnt solid in concrete. Itd be nice to have a thief that can actually be a competent duelist, but I guess as long as shortbow 5 exists, thats a pipedream. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Make a thread "Remove Shortbow 5" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Too many people enjoy the playstyle shortbow 5 provides. Im not selfish enough to take away their toy so I can have mine. Besides, I do have other classes I can play and enjoy playing, and its what Ive been doing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > AFAIK, mirage was supposed to be a duelist thief. > > > > > > > > > > > > Thief was supposed to the duelist thief. Hell, their original introduction even called them "Deadly duelists". For a long time, they even were. They just lost power over time before becoming what they are today. Mirage does have similarities to thief (arguably doing stealth attacks better than actual stealth attacks, because instead of needing to go into stealth, which takes a long time and is just free damage, you simply enter mirage cloak which prevents you from being hit and can be as fast as instant), but theyre still on a different axis. > > > > > > > > > > mirage cloak .... its a dodge which doesnt give the extra distance travel of a normal dodge ... he cannot come closer faster ... you know where he is ..he cannot escape the aoes+slow radius while in stealth > > > > > > > > It gives extra movement speed. I think total distance covered during it is *slightly* less than a dodge? Not sure, I didnt care to memorize the numbers. And yeah he can come closer faster. And he doesnt need to escape anything, he is dodging the damage. > > > > > > > > > Thief has 3 dodges in the spec of Daredevil , that allow you to reposition away from them . > > > > > > > > > > Other mesmer stealth have a huge cd ...and the dont offer a leap mechanic (Blackpowder + Heartsseker ) , to come faster at you or run away > > > > > > > > > > > > > Were not talking about stealth. Were talking about stealth *attacks*. Pretty much the only reason to use stealth. Ambushes are better stealth attacks. Conceptually, at any rate. There is a reason backstab and sneak attack are the only ones that see play (oh and DJ, but only once they forced it into a stealth attack). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Its exactly the same mobility as walking , you simply get ''an immune'' to incoming attacks''buffs . > > > When in combat your movement speed it reduced dramatically . > > > Dodging in all classes , ignores any slow/cripple effects and allow to reposition yourself out of the aoes > > > > > > Do not lie to me again > > > > Not wise to talk about a class you dont know the traits off. Grandmaster minor, Speed of Sand. Mirage cloak grants 66% increased movement speed. **They move significantly faster.** > > You were proven wrong by @"Cyninja.2954" in the other thread, I think in "mesmer need buffs" with math attached to it. Short memory ? > As this guy mentioned its also reduced by cripple/chill even further. > Not wise to talk about a class you have no clue about, nanana. > I know, I know, I shouldnt respond, I will behave. They move significantly faster, that part is true. The part that was wrong is that they cover as much distance as a dodge. But I didnt say that this time, did I? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odik.4587 Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > @"Odik.4587" said: > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > @"Killthehealersffs.8940" said: > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > @"Killthehealersffs.8940" said: > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > @"Tayga.3192" said: > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > I kinda wish thieves role wasnt solid in concrete. Itd be nice to have a thief that can actually be a competent duelist, but I guess as long as shortbow 5 exists, thats a pipedream. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Make a thread "Remove Shortbow 5" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Too many people enjoy the playstyle shortbow 5 provides. Im not selfish enough to take away their toy so I can have mine. Besides, I do have other classes I can play and enjoy playing, and its what Ive been doing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > AFAIK, mirage was supposed to be a duelist thief. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thief was supposed to the duelist thief. Hell, their original introduction even called them "Deadly duelists". For a long time, they even were. They just lost power over time before becoming what they are today. Mirage does have similarities to thief (arguably doing stealth attacks better than actual stealth attacks, because instead of needing to go into stealth, which takes a long time and is just free damage, you simply enter mirage cloak which prevents you from being hit and can be as fast as instant), but theyre still on a different axis. > > > > > > > > > > > > mirage cloak .... its a dodge which doesnt give the extra distance travel of a normal dodge ... he cannot come closer faster ... you know where he is ..he cannot escape the aoes+slow radius while in stealth > > > > > > > > > > It gives extra movement speed. I think total distance covered during it is *slightly* less than a dodge? Not sure, I didnt care to memorize the numbers. And yeah he can come closer faster. And he doesnt need to escape anything, he is dodging the damage. > > > > > > > > > > > Thief has 3 dodges in the spec of Daredevil , that allow you to reposition away from them . > > > > > > > > > > > > Other mesmer stealth have a huge cd ...and the dont offer a leap mechanic (Blackpowder + Heartsseker ) , to come faster at you or run away > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Were not talking about stealth. Were talking about stealth *attacks*. Pretty much the only reason to use stealth. Ambushes are better stealth attacks. Conceptually, at any rate. There is a reason backstab and sneak attack are the only ones that see play (oh and DJ, but only once they forced it into a stealth attack). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Its exactly the same mobility as walking , you simply get ''an immune'' to incoming attacks''buffs . > > > > When in combat your movement speed it reduced dramatically . > > > > Dodging in all classes , ignores any slow/cripple effects and allow to reposition yourself out of the aoes > > > > > > > > Do not lie to me again > > > > > > Not wise to talk about a class you dont know the traits off. Grandmaster minor, Speed of Sand. Mirage cloak grants 66% increased movement speed. **They move significantly faster.** > > > > You were proven wrong by @"Cyninja.2954" in the other thread, I think in "mesmer need buffs" with math attached to it. Short memory ? > > As this guy mentioned its also reduced by cripple/chill even further. > > Not wise to talk about a class you have no clue about, nanana. > > I know, I know, I shouldnt respond, I will behave. > > They move significantly faster, that part is true. The part that was wrong is that they cover as much distance as a dodge. But I didnt say that this time, did I? TEEEEEEEECHNICALLY they move a BIT faster in this 0.75s (only forward, LUL) , indeed, who cares that they are nearly as immobile as they were, especially when you pour cripple and chill over them. Rite Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNOwen.7132 Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 > @"Killthehealersffs.8940" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > @"Killthehealersffs.8940" said: > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > @"Killthehealersffs.8940" said: > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > @"Killthehealersffs.8940" said: > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Tayga.3192" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > I kinda wish thieves role wasnt solid in concrete. Itd be nice to have a thief that can actually be a competent duelist, but I guess as long as shortbow 5 exists, thats a pipedream. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Make a thread "Remove Shortbow 5" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Too many people enjoy the playstyle shortbow 5 provides. Im not selfish enough to take away their toy so I can have mine. Besides, I do have other classes I can play and enjoy playing, and its what Ive been doing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > AFAIK, mirage was supposed to be a duelist thief. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thief was supposed to the duelist thief. Hell, their original introduction even called them "Deadly duelists". For a long time, they even were. They just lost power over time before becoming what they are today. Mirage does have similarities to thief (arguably doing stealth attacks better than actual stealth attacks, because instead of needing to go into stealth, which takes a long time and is just free damage, you simply enter mirage cloak which prevents you from being hit and can be as fast as instant), but theyre still on a different axis. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > mirage cloak .... its a dodge which doesnt give the extra distance travel of a normal dodge ... he cannot come closer faster ... you know where he is ..he cannot escape the aoes+slow radius while in stealth > > > > > > > > > > > > It gives extra movement speed. I think total distance covered during it is *slightly* less than a dodge? Not sure, I didnt care to memorize the numbers. And yeah he can come closer faster. And he doesnt need to escape anything, he is dodging the damage. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thief has 3 dodges in the spec of Daredevil , that allow you to reposition away from them . > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Other mesmer stealth have a huge cd ...and the dont offer a leap mechanic (Blackpowder + Heartsseker ) , to come faster at you or run away > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Were not talking about stealth. Were talking about stealth *attacks*. Pretty much the only reason to use stealth. Ambushes are better stealth attacks. Conceptually, at any rate. There is a reason backstab and sneak attack are the only ones that see play (oh and DJ, but only once they forced it into a stealth attack). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Its exactly the same mobility as walking , you simply get ''an immune'' to incoming attacks''buffs . > > > > > When in combat your movement speed it reduced dramatically . > > > > > Dodging in all classes , ignores any slow/cripple effects and allow to reposition yourself out of the aoes > > > > > > > > > > Do not lie to me again > > > > > > > > Not wise to talk about a class you dont know the traits off. Grandmaster minor, Speed of Sand. Mirage cloak grants 66% increased movement speed. They move significantly faster. > > > > > > Funny , neither should you :) > > > Because its 66% out of combat and more likely 30-31% in combat , while the ones having Swiftness are dropped to 25% > > > And when you have cripple/slow , the benefit drops to 2-3% > > > > > > > ... no, thats not how it works. Its 66% of your current movement speed added. Thats it. > > > Dont worry , i havent played Warhammer REckoning for 7 years and dont know its rules too > > Out of combat : > If a class like Rev have the 15% increase speed (from upkeep) + Swiftness on him = they dont add up to 45% speed . > The bigger value gets the spotlight ... in this case the Swiftness wins . > If the Rev would used the Runes of Traveler , that had the 66% speed , then he wouldnt get 66+33+15% , instead the bigger the number its the winner and overshadow the others ..... 66% Wins > If he had Superpeed ..well he would travel 66% and ignore slow. > That part is true. Outside of one Rev trait that is specified to stack with movement speed increases, the highest one wins out. In this case, 66%. Superspeed is actually 100%. It just doesnt give you the full 100% because there is a hard-cap at 400 movement speed. > In combat : > All these effects are tremendously scaled down > If you have Swiftness from 33% you scale down to 25% > Superspeed from 66% are dropped to 40% > Runes of speed / or any other + 66% , is between those 2 values > Theyre not scaled down *at all*. Here is how it works. Base movement speed in-combat is reduced from 294, to 210. All movement speed boosts now amplify the 210. However, their value is completely unchanged. Swiftness still gives 33% movement speed. Superspeed gives 100% (again, not quite, its actually like 95%, but its almost 100%). And Speed of Sand gives 66%. Simple as that. > And if you are slowed , the difference between those 2 is minmal > 25% speed / 50% slow = 12,5% speed > 31% speed (out of combat 66%) /50 % slow = 15.5% > *If* it worked as you thought it does. It doesnt. See above. > And have 0 dodge left for the Mirage Not relevant here. 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Killthehealersffs.8940 Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > @"Odik.4587" said: > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > @"Killthehealersffs.8940" said: > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > @"Killthehealersffs.8940" said: > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > @"Tayga.3192" said: > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > I kinda wish thieves role wasnt solid in concrete. Itd be nice to have a thief that can actually be a competent duelist, but I guess as long as shortbow 5 exists, thats a pipedream. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Make a thread "Remove Shortbow 5" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Too many people enjoy the playstyle shortbow 5 provides. Im not selfish enough to take away their toy so I can have mine. Besides, I do have other classes I can play and enjoy playing, and its what Ive been doing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > AFAIK, mirage was supposed to be a duelist thief. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thief was supposed to the duelist thief. Hell, their original introduction even called them "Deadly duelists". For a long time, they even were. They just lost power over time before becoming what they are today. Mirage does have similarities to thief (arguably doing stealth attacks better than actual stealth attacks, because instead of needing to go into stealth, which takes a long time and is just free damage, you simply enter mirage cloak which prevents you from being hit and can be as fast as instant), but theyre still on a different axis. > > > > > > > > > > > > mirage cloak .... its a dodge which doesnt give the extra distance travel of a normal dodge ... he cannot come closer faster ... you know where he is ..he cannot escape the aoes+slow radius while in stealth > > > > > > > > > > It gives extra movement speed. I think total distance covered during it is *slightly* less than a dodge? Not sure, I didnt care to memorize the numbers. And yeah he can come closer faster. And he doesnt need to escape anything, he is dodging the damage. > > > > > > > > > > > Thief has 3 dodges in the spec of Daredevil , that allow you to reposition away from them . > > > > > > > > > > > > Other mesmer stealth have a huge cd ...and the dont offer a leap mechanic (Blackpowder + Heartsseker ) , to come faster at you or run away > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Were not talking about stealth. Were talking about stealth *attacks*. Pretty much the only reason to use stealth. Ambushes are better stealth attacks. Conceptually, at any rate. There is a reason backstab and sneak attack are the only ones that see play (oh and DJ, but only once they forced it into a stealth attack). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Its exactly the same mobility as walking , you simply get ''an immune'' to incoming attacks''buffs . > > > > When in combat your movement speed it reduced dramatically . > > > > Dodging in all classes , ignores any slow/cripple effects and allow to reposition yourself out of the aoes > > > > > > > > Do not lie to me again > > > > > > Not wise to talk about a class you dont know the traits off. Grandmaster minor, Speed of Sand. Mirage cloak grants 66% increased movement speed. **They move significantly faster.** > > > > You were proven wrong by @"Cyninja.2954" in the other thread, I think in "mesmer need buffs" with math attached to it. Short memory ? > > As this guy mentioned its also reduced by cripple/chill even further. > > Not wise to talk about a class you have no clue about, nanana. > > I know, I know, I shouldnt respond, I will behave. > > They move significantly faster, that part is true. The part that was wrong is that they cover as much distance as a dodge. But I didnt say that this time, did I? Dodges cover more distance. Having the +5% increase speed in WWvW ... dont do much .... And even more when crippled you cannot run away from the aoes , like dodge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNOwen.7132 Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 > @"Odik.4587" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > @"Odik.4587" said: > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > @"Killthehealersffs.8940" said: > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > @"Killthehealersffs.8940" said: > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Tayga.3192" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > I kinda wish thieves role wasnt solid in concrete. Itd be nice to have a thief that can actually be a competent duelist, but I guess as long as shortbow 5 exists, thats a pipedream. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Make a thread "Remove Shortbow 5" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Too many people enjoy the playstyle shortbow 5 provides. Im not selfish enough to take away their toy so I can have mine. Besides, I do have other classes I can play and enjoy playing, and its what Ive been doing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > AFAIK, mirage was supposed to be a duelist thief. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thief was supposed to the duelist thief. Hell, their original introduction even called them "Deadly duelists". For a long time, they even were. They just lost power over time before becoming what they are today. Mirage does have similarities to thief (arguably doing stealth attacks better than actual stealth attacks, because instead of needing to go into stealth, which takes a long time and is just free damage, you simply enter mirage cloak which prevents you from being hit and can be as fast as instant), but theyre still on a different axis. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > mirage cloak .... its a dodge which doesnt give the extra distance travel of a normal dodge ... he cannot come closer faster ... you know where he is ..he cannot escape the aoes+slow radius while in stealth > > > > > > > > > > > > It gives extra movement speed. I think total distance covered during it is *slightly* less than a dodge? Not sure, I didnt care to memorize the numbers. And yeah he can come closer faster. And he doesnt need to escape anything, he is dodging the damage. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thief has 3 dodges in the spec of Daredevil , that allow you to reposition away from them . > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Other mesmer stealth have a huge cd ...and the dont offer a leap mechanic (Blackpowder + Heartsseker ) , to come faster at you or run away > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Were not talking about stealth. Were talking about stealth *attacks*. Pretty much the only reason to use stealth. Ambushes are better stealth attacks. Conceptually, at any rate. There is a reason backstab and sneak attack are the only ones that see play (oh and DJ, but only once they forced it into a stealth attack). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Its exactly the same mobility as walking , you simply get ''an immune'' to incoming attacks''buffs . > > > > > When in combat your movement speed it reduced dramatically . > > > > > Dodging in all classes , ignores any slow/cripple effects and allow to reposition yourself out of the aoes > > > > > > > > > > Do not lie to me again > > > > > > > > Not wise to talk about a class you dont know the traits off. Grandmaster minor, Speed of Sand. Mirage cloak grants 66% increased movement speed. **They move significantly faster.** > > > > > > You were proven wrong by @"Cyninja.2954" in the other thread, I think in "mesmer need buffs" with math attached to it. Short memory ? > > > As this guy mentioned its also reduced by cripple/chill even further. > > > Not wise to talk about a class you have no clue about, nanana. > > > I know, I know, I shouldnt respond, I will behave. > > > > They move significantly faster, that part is true. The part that was wrong is that they cover as much distance as a dodge. But I didnt say that this time, did I? > TEEEEEEEECHNICALLY they move a BIT faster in this 0.75s (only forward, LUL) , indeed, who cares that they are nearly as immobile as they were, especially when you pour cripple and chill over them. Rite Right, movement speed boosts dont affect sideways movement. Still not sure *why* but alright. But 66% is a lot. Its twice as much as Swiftness. And sure, if you throw cripple or chill on them theyre gonna be slow, but hey, Elusive Mind lets you clear those debilitating conditions now. Mirage is hardly "immobile". Its no shortbow 5 thief or Warrior, but its certainly faster than Guardian or Engineer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killthehealersffs.8940 Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > @"Killthehealersffs.8940" said: > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > @"Killthehealersffs.8940" said: > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > @"Killthehealersffs.8940" said: > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > @"Killthehealersffs.8940" said: > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Tayga.3192" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > I kinda wish thieves role wasnt solid in concrete. Itd be nice to have a thief that can actually be a competent duelist, but I guess as long as shortbow 5 exists, thats a pipedream. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Make a thread "Remove Shortbow 5" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Too many people enjoy the playstyle shortbow 5 provides. Im not selfish enough to take away their toy so I can have mine. Besides, I do have other classes I can play and enjoy playing, and its what Ive been doing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > AFAIK, mirage was supposed to be a duelist thief. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thief was supposed to the duelist thief. Hell, their original introduction even called them "Deadly duelists". For a long time, they even were. They just lost power over time before becoming what they are today. Mirage does have similarities to thief (arguably doing stealth attacks better than actual stealth attacks, because instead of needing to go into stealth, which takes a long time and is just free damage, you simply enter mirage cloak which prevents you from being hit and can be as fast as instant), but theyre still on a different axis. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > mirage cloak .... its a dodge which doesnt give the extra distance travel of a normal dodge ... he cannot come closer faster ... you know where he is ..he cannot escape the aoes+slow radius while in stealth > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It gives extra movement speed. I think total distance covered during it is *slightly* less than a dodge? Not sure, I didnt care to memorize the numbers. And yeah he can come closer faster. And he doesnt need to escape anything, he is dodging the damage. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thief has 3 dodges in the spec of Daredevil , that allow you to reposition away from them . > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Other mesmer stealth have a huge cd ...and the dont offer a leap mechanic (Blackpowder + Heartsseker ) , to come faster at you or run away > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Were not talking about stealth. Were talking about stealth *attacks*. Pretty much the only reason to use stealth. Ambushes are better stealth attacks. Conceptually, at any rate. There is a reason backstab and sneak attack are the only ones that see play (oh and DJ, but only once they forced it into a stealth attack). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Its exactly the same mobility as walking , you simply get ''an immune'' to incoming attacks''buffs . > > > > > > When in combat your movement speed it reduced dramatically . > > > > > > Dodging in all classes , ignores any slow/cripple effects and allow to reposition yourself out of the aoes > > > > > > > > > > > > Do not lie to me again > > > > > > > > > > Not wise to talk about a class you dont know the traits off. Grandmaster minor, Speed of Sand. Mirage cloak grants 66% increased movement speed. They move significantly faster. > > > > > > > > Funny , neither should you :) > > > > Because its 66% out of combat and more likely 30-31% in combat , while the ones having Swiftness are dropped to 25% > > > > And when you have cripple/slow , the benefit drops to 2-3% > > > > > > > > > > ... no, thats not how it works. Its 66% of your current movement speed added. Thats it. > > > > > > Dont worry , i havent played Warhammer REckoning for 7 years and dont know its rules too > > > > Out of combat : > > If a class like Rev have the 15% increase speed (from upkeep) + Swiftness on him = they dont add up to 45% speed . > > The bigger value gets the spotlight ... in this case the Swiftness wins . > > If the Rev would used the Runes of Traveler , that had the 66% speed , then he wouldnt get 66+33+15% , instead the bigger the number its the winner and overshadow the others ..... 66% Wins > > If he had Superpeed ..well he would travel 66% and ignore slow. > > > > That part is true. Outside of one Rev trait that is specified to stack with movement speed increases, the highest one wins out. In this case, 66%. Superspeed is actually 100%. It just doesnt give you the full 100% because there is a hard-cap at 400 movement speed. > > > In combat : > > All these effects are tremendously scaled down > > If you have Swiftness from 33% you scale down to 25% > > Superspeed from 66% are dropped to 40% > > Runes of speed / or any other + 66% , is between those 2 values > > > > Theyre not scaled down *at all*. Here is how it works. Base movement speed in-combat is reduced from 294, to 210. All movement speed boosts now amplify the 210. However, their value is completely unchanged. Swiftness still gives 33% movement speed. Superspeed gives 100% (again, not quite, its actually like 95%, but its almost 100%). And Speed of Sand gives 66%. Simple as that. > > > And if you are slowed , the difference between those 2 is minmal > > 25% speed / 50% slow = 12,5% speed > > 31% speed (out of combat 66%) /50 % slow = 15.5% > > > > *If* it worked as you thought it does. It doesnt. See above. > > > And have 0 dodge left for the Mirage > > Not relevant here. Just ... go ingame Get swiftness/66% and go from the Mesmer Npc in PvP area to the golem . Now do the same after you attack the npc Theres a hard cap of much you can benefit , from combat , so the PvP maps are created small in size and not every1 can move like an FPS ninja and look silly in Twicth '' Not relevant here.'' You said in the other guy that you can use your 1x Dodge with a stealth so you wont get freedamaged by the aoes He cannot use the mobility of the dodges to get away from aoes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNOwen.7132 Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 > @"Killthehealersffs.8940" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > @"Odik.4587" said: > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > @"Killthehealersffs.8940" said: > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > @"Killthehealersffs.8940" said: > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Tayga.3192" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > I kinda wish thieves role wasnt solid in concrete. Itd be nice to have a thief that can actually be a competent duelist, but I guess as long as shortbow 5 exists, thats a pipedream. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Make a thread "Remove Shortbow 5" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Too many people enjoy the playstyle shortbow 5 provides. Im not selfish enough to take away their toy so I can have mine. Besides, I do have other classes I can play and enjoy playing, and its what Ive been doing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > AFAIK, mirage was supposed to be a duelist thief. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thief was supposed to the duelist thief. Hell, their original introduction even called them "Deadly duelists". For a long time, they even were. They just lost power over time before becoming what they are today. Mirage does have similarities to thief (arguably doing stealth attacks better than actual stealth attacks, because instead of needing to go into stealth, which takes a long time and is just free damage, you simply enter mirage cloak which prevents you from being hit and can be as fast as instant), but theyre still on a different axis. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > mirage cloak .... its a dodge which doesnt give the extra distance travel of a normal dodge ... he cannot come closer faster ... you know where he is ..he cannot escape the aoes+slow radius while in stealth > > > > > > > > > > > > It gives extra movement speed. I think total distance covered during it is *slightly* less than a dodge? Not sure, I didnt care to memorize the numbers. And yeah he can come closer faster. And he doesnt need to escape anything, he is dodging the damage. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thief has 3 dodges in the spec of Daredevil , that allow you to reposition away from them . > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Other mesmer stealth have a huge cd ...and the dont offer a leap mechanic (Blackpowder + Heartsseker ) , to come faster at you or run away > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Were not talking about stealth. Were talking about stealth *attacks*. Pretty much the only reason to use stealth. Ambushes are better stealth attacks. Conceptually, at any rate. There is a reason backstab and sneak attack are the only ones that see play (oh and DJ, but only once they forced it into a stealth attack). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Its exactly the same mobility as walking , you simply get ''an immune'' to incoming attacks''buffs . > > > > > When in combat your movement speed it reduced dramatically . > > > > > Dodging in all classes , ignores any slow/cripple effects and allow to reposition yourself out of the aoes > > > > > > > > > > Do not lie to me again > > > > > > > > Not wise to talk about a class you dont know the traits off. Grandmaster minor, Speed of Sand. Mirage cloak grants 66% increased movement speed. **They move significantly faster.** > > > > > > You were proven wrong by @"Cyninja.2954" in the other thread, I think in "mesmer need buffs" with math attached to it. Short memory ? > > > As this guy mentioned its also reduced by cripple/chill even further. > > > Not wise to talk about a class you have no clue about, nanana. > > > I know, I know, I shouldnt respond, I will behave. > > > > They move significantly faster, that part is true. The part that was wrong is that they cover as much distance as a dodge. But I didnt say that this time, did I? > > Dodges cover more distance. Having the +5% increase speed in WWvW ... dont do much .... > And even more when crippled you cannot run away from the aoes , like dodge > They do cover more distance, but not by a whole lot. Not a clue what 5% is supposed to refer to, but I imagine its a non-sequitur. And yeah, youre not running away from Aoe, youre *dodging* it. Thats the whole point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odik.4587 Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > @"Odik.4587" said: > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > @"Odik.4587" said: > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > @"Killthehealersffs.8940" said: > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > @"Killthehealersffs.8940" said: > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Tayga.3192" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > I kinda wish thieves role wasnt solid in concrete. Itd be nice to have a thief that can actually be a competent duelist, but I guess as long as shortbow 5 exists, thats a pipedream. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Make a thread "Remove Shortbow 5" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Too many people enjoy the playstyle shortbow 5 provides. Im not selfish enough to take away their toy so I can have mine. Besides, I do have other classes I can play and enjoy playing, and its what Ive been doing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > AFAIK, mirage was supposed to be a duelist thief. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thief was supposed to the duelist thief. Hell, their original introduction even called them "Deadly duelists". For a long time, they even were. They just lost power over time before becoming what they are today. Mirage does have similarities to thief (arguably doing stealth attacks better than actual stealth attacks, because instead of needing to go into stealth, which takes a long time and is just free damage, you simply enter mirage cloak which prevents you from being hit and can be as fast as instant), but theyre still on a different axis. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > mirage cloak .... its a dodge which doesnt give the extra distance travel of a normal dodge ... he cannot come closer faster ... you know where he is ..he cannot escape the aoes+slow radius while in stealth > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It gives extra movement speed. I think total distance covered during it is *slightly* less than a dodge? Not sure, I didnt care to memorize the numbers. And yeah he can come closer faster. And he doesnt need to escape anything, he is dodging the damage. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thief has 3 dodges in the spec of Daredevil , that allow you to reposition away from them . > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Other mesmer stealth have a huge cd ...and the dont offer a leap mechanic (Blackpowder + Heartsseker ) , to come faster at you or run away > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Were not talking about stealth. Were talking about stealth *attacks*. Pretty much the only reason to use stealth. Ambushes are better stealth attacks. Conceptually, at any rate. There is a reason backstab and sneak attack are the only ones that see play (oh and DJ, but only once they forced it into a stealth attack). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Its exactly the same mobility as walking , you simply get ''an immune'' to incoming attacks''buffs . > > > > > > When in combat your movement speed it reduced dramatically . > > > > > > Dodging in all classes , ignores any slow/cripple effects and allow to reposition yourself out of the aoes > > > > > > > > > > > > Do not lie to me again > > > > > > > > > > Not wise to talk about a class you dont know the traits off. Grandmaster minor, Speed of Sand. Mirage cloak grants 66% increased movement speed. **They move significantly faster.** > > > > > > > > You were proven wrong by @"Cyninja.2954" in the other thread, I think in "mesmer need buffs" with math attached to it. Short memory ? > > > > As this guy mentioned its also reduced by cripple/chill even further. > > > > Not wise to talk about a class you have no clue about, nanana. > > > > I know, I know, I shouldnt respond, I will behave. > > > > > > They move significantly faster, that part is true. The part that was wrong is that they cover as much distance as a dodge. But I didnt say that this time, did I? > > TEEEEEEEECHNICALLY they move a BIT faster in this 0.75s (only forward, LUL) , indeed, who cares that they are nearly as immobile as they were, especially when you pour cripple and chill over them. Rite > > Right, movement speed boosts dont affect sideways movement. Still not sure *why* but alright. But 66% is a lot. Its twice as much as Swiftness. And sure, if you throw cripple or chill on them theyre gonna be slow, but hey, Elusive Mind lets you clear those debilitating conditions now. **Mirage is hardly "immobile". Its no shortbow 5 thief or Warrior, but its certainly faster than Guardian or Engineer.** SURE! MIRAGE WILL OUTRUN THEM BOTH WITH 0.75s MOVESPEED BONUS OF 66% ! EVEN THIEF CANT RIVAL THIS!111 I'm done, you will not get me banned with your jebait posts. Should keep my promise, ZZZZZZZZZZ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNOwen.7132 Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 > @"Odik.4587" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > @"Odik.4587" said: > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > @"Odik.4587" said: > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > @"Killthehealersffs.8940" said: > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Killthehealersffs.8940" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Tayga.3192" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > I kinda wish thieves role wasnt solid in concrete. Itd be nice to have a thief that can actually be a competent duelist, but I guess as long as shortbow 5 exists, thats a pipedream. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Make a thread "Remove Shortbow 5" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Too many people enjoy the playstyle shortbow 5 provides. Im not selfish enough to take away their toy so I can have mine. Besides, I do have other classes I can play and enjoy playing, and its what Ive been doing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > AFAIK, mirage was supposed to be a duelist thief. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thief was supposed to the duelist thief. Hell, their original introduction even called them "Deadly duelists". For a long time, they even were. They just lost power over time before becoming what they are today. Mirage does have similarities to thief (arguably doing stealth attacks better than actual stealth attacks, because instead of needing to go into stealth, which takes a long time and is just free damage, you simply enter mirage cloak which prevents you from being hit and can be as fast as instant), but theyre still on a different axis. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > mirage cloak .... its a dodge which doesnt give the extra distance travel of a normal dodge ... he cannot come closer faster ... you know where he is ..he cannot escape the aoes+slow radius while in stealth > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It gives extra movement speed. I think total distance covered during it is *slightly* less than a dodge? Not sure, I didnt care to memorize the numbers. And yeah he can come closer faster. And he doesnt need to escape anything, he is dodging the damage. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thief has 3 dodges in the spec of Daredevil , that allow you to reposition away from them . > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Other mesmer stealth have a huge cd ...and the dont offer a leap mechanic (Blackpowder + Heartsseker ) , to come faster at you or run away > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Were not talking about stealth. Were talking about stealth *attacks*. Pretty much the only reason to use stealth. Ambushes are better stealth attacks. Conceptually, at any rate. There is a reason backstab and sneak attack are the only ones that see play (oh and DJ, but only once they forced it into a stealth attack). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Its exactly the same mobility as walking , you simply get ''an immune'' to incoming attacks''buffs . > > > > > > > When in combat your movement speed it reduced dramatically . > > > > > > > Dodging in all classes , ignores any slow/cripple effects and allow to reposition yourself out of the aoes > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Do not lie to me again > > > > > > > > > > > > Not wise to talk about a class you dont know the traits off. Grandmaster minor, Speed of Sand. Mirage cloak grants 66% increased movement speed. **They move significantly faster.** > > > > > > > > > > You were proven wrong by @"Cyninja.2954" in the other thread, I think in "mesmer need buffs" with math attached to it. Short memory ? > > > > > As this guy mentioned its also reduced by cripple/chill even further. > > > > > Not wise to talk about a class you have no clue about, nanana. > > > > > I know, I know, I shouldnt respond, I will behave. > > > > > > > > They move significantly faster, that part is true. The part that was wrong is that they cover as much distance as a dodge. But I didnt say that this time, did I? > > > TEEEEEEEECHNICALLY they move a BIT faster in this 0.75s (only forward, LUL) , indeed, who cares that they are nearly as immobile as they were, especially when you pour cripple and chill over them. Rite > > > > Right, movement speed boosts dont affect sideways movement. Still not sure *why* but alright. But 66% is a lot. Its twice as much as Swiftness. And sure, if you throw cripple or chill on them theyre gonna be slow, but hey, Elusive Mind lets you clear those debilitating conditions now. **Mirage is hardly "immobile". Its no shortbow 5 thief or Warrior, but its certainly faster than Guardian or Engineer.** > SURE! MIRAGE WILL OUTRUN THEM BOTH WITH 0.75s MOVESPEED BONUS OF 66% ! EVEN THIEF CANT RIVAL THIS!111 > I'm done, you will not get me banned with your jebait posts. Should keep my promise, ZZZZZZZZZZ Are we just pretending Jaunt and Mirage Thrust dont exist? Because they do. And they (mostly Mirage thrust) make Mirage *considerably* more mobile than Engineer and Guardian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crab Fear.1624 Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 > @"Odik.4587" said: > > @"Crab Fear.1624" said: > > > @"Odik.4587" said: > > > > @"Crab Fear.1624" said: > > > > > @"Tayga.3192" said: > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > I kinda wish thieves role wasnt solid in concrete. Itd be nice to have a thief that can actually be a competent duelist, but I guess as long as shortbow 5 exists, thats a pipedream. > > > > > > > > > > Make a thread "Remove Shortbow 5" > > > > > > > > > > AFAIK, mirage was supposed to be a duelist thief. > > > > > > > > Mesmer was supposed to be a duelist, it is in their core description. > > > > > > > > The mobility part was not. > > > > > > > > Chop at mobility and beef up dueling. > > > What mobility you want to remove?????? Blink? And it would be less mobile than necromancer. :joy: > > > > They can remove the leap off sword for mirage, but I was talking in general though. > > > > But mirage will still have more invuln, evades, detargets and stealth than a necro. > > > > When mirage had 2 dodges, a power mirage was very mobile. > > > > They can look into beefing the dueling, but ranged escape can not go up from here. > > I got you there. You are basically mad that the only ONE person in both regions played power, feeling insulted that mirage could have mobility to compete with a thief, because no one should be as fast as the thief, OK. > I didnt find anything in thief description saying they are should have unmatched mobility among all other classes. Delete shadowsteps/sb5/rifle4 on DE. Lets balance by the stupid descriptions as you suggest, why not? Yes. We should. Then thief will be king 1 v 1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killthehealersffs.8940 Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > @"Killthehealersffs.8940" said: > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > @"Odik.4587" said: > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > @"Killthehealersffs.8940" said: > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > @"Killthehealersffs.8940" said: > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Tayga.3192" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > > I kinda wish thieves role wasnt solid in concrete. Itd be nice to have a thief that can actually be a competent duelist, but I guess as long as shortbow 5 exists, thats a pipedream. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Make a thread "Remove Shortbow 5" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Too many people enjoy the playstyle shortbow 5 provides. Im not selfish enough to take away their toy so I can have mine. Besides, I do have other classes I can play and enjoy playing, and its what Ive been doing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > AFAIK, mirage was supposed to be a duelist thief. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thief was supposed to the duelist thief. Hell, their original introduction even called them "Deadly duelists". For a long time, they even were. They just lost power over time before becoming what they are today. Mirage does have similarities to thief (arguably doing stealth attacks better than actual stealth attacks, because instead of needing to go into stealth, which takes a long time and is just free damage, you simply enter mirage cloak which prevents you from being hit and can be as fast as instant), but theyre still on a different axis. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > mirage cloak .... its a dodge which doesnt give the extra distance travel of a normal dodge ... he cannot come closer faster ... you know where he is ..he cannot escape the aoes+slow radius while in stealth > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It gives extra movement speed. I think total distance covered during it is *slightly* less than a dodge? Not sure, I didnt care to memorize the numbers. And yeah he can come closer faster. And he doesnt need to escape anything, he is dodging the damage. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thief has 3 dodges in the spec of Daredevil , that allow you to reposition away from them . > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Other mesmer stealth have a huge cd ...and the dont offer a leap mechanic (Blackpowder + Heartsseker ) , to come faster at you or run away > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Were not talking about stealth. Were talking about stealth *attacks*. Pretty much the only reason to use stealth. Ambushes are better stealth attacks. Conceptually, at any rate. There is a reason backstab and sneak attack are the only ones that see play (oh and DJ, but only once they forced it into a stealth attack). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Its exactly the same mobility as walking , you simply get ''an immune'' to incoming attacks''buffs . > > > > > > When in combat your movement speed it reduced dramatically . > > > > > > Dodging in all classes , ignores any slow/cripple effects and allow to reposition yourself out of the aoes > > > > > > > > > > > > Do not lie to me again > > > > > > > > > > Not wise to talk about a class you dont know the traits off. Grandmaster minor, Speed of Sand. Mirage cloak grants 66% increased movement speed. **They move significantly faster.** > > > > > > > > You were proven wrong by @"Cyninja.2954" in the other thread, I think in "mesmer need buffs" with math attached to it. Short memory ? > > > > As this guy mentioned its also reduced by cripple/chill even further. > > > > Not wise to talk about a class you have no clue about, nanana. > > > > I know, I know, I shouldnt respond, I will behave. > > > > > > They move significantly faster, that part is true. The part that was wrong is that they cover as much distance as a dodge. But I didnt say that this time, did I? > > > > Dodges cover more distance. Having the +5% increase speed in WWvW ... dont do much .... > > And even more when crippled you cannot run away from the aoes , like dodge > > > > They do cover more distance, but not by a whole lot. Not a clue what 5% is supposed to refer to, but I imagine its a non-sequitur. And yeah, youre not running away from Aoe, youre *dodging* it. Thats the whole point. The enemy will not try to use their aoes , with you in the middle to ''souround'' you . Its not like Enginner Nada ... which you play... that you must place the target in the middle of the aoes , so he get hits by all nada . He will place the aoe where 70% between will be between you and him and 30% behind you ...and he will slow you . You wont run out of the aoe complitly , while slowed . He will keep puting aoes , because he know where you are . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odik.4587 Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 > @"Crab Fear.1624" said: > > @"Odik.4587" said: > > > @"Crab Fear.1624" said: > > > > @"Odik.4587" said: > > > > > @"Crab Fear.1624" said: > > > > > > @"Tayga.3192" said: > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > I kinda wish thieves role wasnt solid in concrete. Itd be nice to have a thief that can actually be a competent duelist, but I guess as long as shortbow 5 exists, thats a pipedream. > > > > > > > > > > > > Make a thread "Remove Shortbow 5" > > > > > > > > > > > > AFAIK, mirage was supposed to be a duelist thief. > > > > > > > > > > Mesmer was supposed to be a duelist, it is in their core description. > > > > > > > > > > The mobility part was not. > > > > > > > > > > Chop at mobility and beef up dueling. > > > > What mobility you want to remove?????? Blink? And it would be less mobile than necromancer. :joy: > > > > > > They can remove the leap off sword for mirage, but I was talking in general though. > > > > > > But mirage will still have more invuln, evades, detargets and stealth than a necro. > > > > > > When mirage had 2 dodges, a power mirage was very mobile. > > > > > > They can look into beefing the dueling, but ranged escape can not go up from here. > > > > I got you there. You are basically mad that the only ONE person in both regions played power, feeling insulted that mirage could have mobility to compete with a thief, because no one should be as fast as the thief, OK. > > I didnt find anything in thief description saying they are should have unmatched mobility among all other classes. Delete shadowsteps/sb5/rifle4 on DE. Lets balance by the stupid descriptions as you suggest, why not? > > Yes. We should. Then thief will be king 1 v 1. Wrong. 1 of mesmer traitlines is literally called DUELING. > Mesmers are magical duelists who wield deception as a weapon. Using powerful illusions, clones, and phantasmal magic to ensure that their enemies can’t believe their own eyes, **mesmers tip the balance of every fight in their favor.** Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
viquing.8254 Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 > @"bravan.3876" said: > > @"Crab Fear.1624" said: > > > @"Tayga.3192" said: > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > I kinda wish thieves role wasnt solid in concrete. Itd be nice to have a thief that can actually be a competent duelist, but I guess as long as shortbow 5 exists, thats a pipedream. > > > > > > Make a thread "Remove Shortbow 5" > > > > > > AFAIK, mirage was supposed to be a duelist thief. > > > > Mesmer was supposed to be a duelist, it is in their core description. > > > > The mobility part was not. > > > > Chop at mobility and beef up dueling. > > Just as all classes also Mesmer and Mirage is supposed to have different playstyles (for example Guards can be supporter but also teamfight-/ roational dmg dealer). Just that Anet seems to favor the more braindead condi playstyles for Mesmer. Like pressuring Mirage into condi while IH and ambushes on power are way better and healthier and higher skill ceiling designed. If Anet wants to pressure and limit Mesmer or Mirage into only one playstyle than it should be rotational power, because that is clearly the healthiest, best balanced and hardest to play, fairest and the least annoying to deal with as an opponent. Sadly Anet does quite the opposite and kills Powerbuilds on Mesmer as if they are not relevant in their world at all and that for the sake of nerfing an in general low skill ceiling condi playstyle to fit an equally braindead meta (while not even solving the balance issues of the one op playstyle at all). The game would be so much better if just everything else (every build on Mesmer and every other class) would be balanced down to the skill requirement lvl and power lvl of a post patch (but with 2 dodges) Powermesmer/mirage. That would be a meta i would enjoy on all classes. Sadly all low skilled casuals and all the wannabe good special snowflakes with more ego than skill would probably leave the game then, when they can't find anything to carry their low skill anymore. Carefull with what you write because spamming GS ambush is in no way more skillfull than spamming axe ambush and in regards to condibursting with torch + shatter versus power bursting with torch + shatter, it's exactly the same, you just replace F2 by F1. Mean the current (hybrid)condi meta build is even more skillfull than the old power mirage style considering it's all melee and it's not based on a 100% F3 stun with old CS like most power build were. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bravan.3876 Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 > @"viquing.8254" said: > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > @"Crab Fear.1624" said: > > > > @"Tayga.3192" said: > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > I kinda wish thieves role wasnt solid in concrete. Itd be nice to have a thief that can actually be a competent duelist, but I guess as long as shortbow 5 exists, thats a pipedream. > > > > > > > > Make a thread "Remove Shortbow 5" > > > > > > > > AFAIK, mirage was supposed to be a duelist thief. > > > > > > Mesmer was supposed to be a duelist, it is in their core description. > > > > > > The mobility part was not. > > > > > > Chop at mobility and beef up dueling. > > > > Just as all classes also Mesmer and Mirage is supposed to have different playstyles (for example Guards can be supporter but also teamfight-/ roational dmg dealer). Just that Anet seems to favor the more braindead condi playstyles for Mesmer. Like pressuring Mirage into condi while IH and ambushes on power are way better and healthier and higher skill ceiling designed. If Anet wants to pressure and limit Mesmer or Mirage into only one playstyle than it should be rotational power, because that is clearly the healthiest, best balanced and hardest to play, fairest and the least annoying to deal with as an opponent. Sadly Anet does quite the opposite and kills Powerbuilds on Mesmer as if they are not relevant in their world at all and that for the sake of nerfing an in general low skill ceiling condi playstyle to fit an equally braindead meta (while not even solving the balance issues of the one op playstyle at all). The game would be so much better if just everything else (every build on Mesmer and every other class) would be balanced down to the skill requirement lvl and power lvl of a post patch (but with 2 dodges) Powermesmer/mirage. That would be a meta i would enjoy on all classes. Sadly all low skilled casuals and all the wannabe good special snowflakes with more ego than skill would probably leave the game then, when they can't find anything to carry their low skill anymore. > > Carefull with what you write because spamming GS ambush is in no way more skillfull than spamming axe ambush and in regards to condibursting with torch + shatter versus power bursting with torch + shatter, it's exactly the same, you just replace F2 by F1. Mean the current (hybrid)condi meta build is even more skillfull than the old power mirage style considering it's all melee and it's not based on a 100% F3 stun with old CS like most power build were. The curreent meta build doesn't rly use axe ambush because axe ambushes do not rly add anything. There is no value in making your condi burst more predictable by adding an axe ambush before the torch burst. There is no need to combo with axe ambush. Means no skill ceiling added by that. It is more a torch out of stealth burst. It is not a Mirage specific burst, it is pretty core based playstyle avoiding most Mirage mechanics would add active combo requirement and skill ceiling. Not to mention that gs has an overall way higher skill ceiling than axe even though the gs autoattack has a higher range, so you are not correct in my opinion. But i am certain we will disagree here until world ends though lets just agree to disagree over that xD The only ambush gets used in this condi build is sword for some cc/boonrip and mobility. Also as i mentioned in other posts already a Powermirage build rewards gs ambush spam too much is not what we want either. Balance changes i would do based on giving Mirage 2 dodges back are: 1. The direct dmg from the Mesmers own gs ambush should be reduced and the might/vuln stacks should be reduced a very little bit too (less than the direct dmg and not that much, that offensive dodging gets worthless). 2. Illusionary ambush (actually the whole retargeting mechanic, means for axe 3 only an evade and port to target but no retargeting anymore) should be deleted completely actually, what ofc will not happen. At least IA should get a 50+s cd. 3. Signet of Illusion should not include the reset of f4 anymore, not only because of Mirage (what clearly has the best synergy to it) but because it is in general too strong, also on core, to have an utility literally half the cd of an complete invuln skill. It should have excluded f4 since game release. 4. Condi ambushes should get reworked to not add remarkable condi dmg anymore instead should be more about utility effects the player needs to time well and different from pure defensive dodges to get enough reward out of them. I already made suggestions for how to rework condi ambushes, i will not add it here again (if wanted i will search my comments and copy paste those later?) A Mirage not timing ambush rewards (from his own but also clone ambushes with IH) for active and tactical outplays well, should have less impact than a core Mesmer, that counts for power and condi style. 5. Normal clone autoattacks should lose all condi dmg (except for one pseudo hit like on power weapons). If needed you can move some of the lost condi dmg back to shatters again. 6. IH should be considered to be a minor trait, a Mirage without IH feels like a core with only some passive mistake cover and a too strong instant dodge added. Without IH there is barely any skill ceiling added to the spec balance out the strong features the spec has from MC. Major GM traits should be reworked based on IH being baseline (i made some suggestion for how GM traits could look like then, i will not add it again, if someone insist i would search and copy paste my old posts here). 7. Mantra of Pain should be reworked to a non dmg Mantra (means rly zero dmg). The best way would be to turn it into a boon remove or other utility Mantra instead the selfbuff for oneshots nature it still has. The face your target requirement from Mantras can be deleted after that (ofc Mantras still should not hit when obstructed). 8. PU only gives one second additional stealth when traited, for that the boon duration of the conditions get increased. Aegis gets deleted, instead the Mesmer gets a thoughness bonus (or 30-40% dmg reduction buff) for 2 seconds after dropping out of stealth. 9. Either Chaosline gets reworked into something less passive and higher skill ceiling or at least reduce vigor duration from BD. That would be the ideal way to balance Mirage to a balanced post patch state lvl but without killing skill ceiling (even adding tons of it) and without contradicting the inherent costs the spec has implemented since pof release. Without dumbing down the general dodgemanagement by only one dodge bar forcing to spam dodges on cd and without contradicting the whole spec mechanic and doom it to be more passive than before on power and just as passive as before on condi. According to Anet not having the ressources to add that much effort and work into good balance you just can ignore Nr. 6 if too much work (but EM should be reduced to only one condi remove instead 2 when Mirage has 2 dodges again). Reworking condi ambushes meanwhile is rly not that much of work and every condi dmg it loses can be compensated by number tweaks in PvE to make it not useless for PvE content with too less dmg. Stuff like that scepter only hits one time instead giving multiple hits aside from deleting most if not all of its condi dmg and add no-dmg-conditions instead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odik.4587 Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 > @"bravan.3876" said: > 7. Superiority Complex passed the nerf bat completely and should get the usual 25-30% nerf the big patch aimed for. In, none of the traits got 25-30% damage nerfs. Weapons skills got nerfed, mesmer weapons got 35-50% dmg nerfs, yay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tayga.3192 Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 > @"bravan.3876" said: > 7. Superiority Complex passed the nerf bat completely and should get the usual 25-30% nerf the big patch aimed for. Damage mods didn't get much nerfs, some even got buffs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bravan.3876 Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 > @"Odik.4587" said: > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > 7. Superiority Complex passed the nerf bat completely and should get the usual 25-30% nerf the big patch aimed for. > In, none of the traits got 25-30% damage nerfs. Weapons skills got nerfed, mesmer weapons got 35-50% dmg nerfs, yay > @"Tayga.3192" said: > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > 7. Superiority Complex passed the nerf bat completely and should get the usual 25-30% nerf the big patch aimed for. > > Damage mods didn't get much nerfs, some even got buffs. Traits got nerfed but yes mostly in condi duration (what is equal to dmg nerfs), boon duration, healing power and such things. Delete no. 7 then if you like. It is not that important i think. I deleted it from my post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odik.4587 Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 > @"bravan.3876" said: > > @"Odik.4587" said: > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > 7. Superiority Complex passed the nerf bat completely and should get the usual 25-30% nerf the big patch aimed for. > > In, none of the traits got 25-30% damage nerfs. Weapons skills got nerfed, mesmer weapons got 35-50% dmg nerfs, yay > > > @"Tayga.3192" said: > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > 7. Superiority Complex passed the nerf bat completely and should get the usual 25-30% nerf the big patch aimed for. > > > > Damage mods didn't get much nerfs, some even got buffs. > > Traits got nerfed but yes mostly in condi duration (what is equal to dmg nerfs), boon duration, healing power and such things. Delete no. 7 then if you like. It is not that important i think. I didnt read the rest but holy cow, wtf? Its alrdy pretty meh even on 35s cd, but making it equal to https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shadowstep ? Not like deleting what is alrdy bad would make a difference :joy: >Illusionary ambush (actually the whole retargeting mechanic, means for axe 3 only an evade and port to target but no retargeting anymore) should be deleted completely actually, what ofc will not happen. At least IA should get a 50+s cd. I wouldnt trust balancing to you tbh xD P.S even if SC would be nerfed, DE would be chosen 100% of time on any build/anytime Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bravan.3876 Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 > @"Odik.4587" said: > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > @"Odik.4587" said: > > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > 7. Superiority Complex passed the nerf bat completely and should get the usual 25-30% nerf the big patch aimed for. > > > In, none of the traits got 25-30% damage nerfs. Weapons skills got nerfed, mesmer weapons got 35-50% dmg nerfs, yay > > > > > @"Tayga.3192" said: > > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > 7. Superiority Complex passed the nerf bat completely and should get the usual 25-30% nerf the big patch aimed for. > > > > > > Damage mods didn't get much nerfs, some even got buffs. > > > > Traits got nerfed but yes mostly in condi duration (what is equal to dmg nerfs), boon duration, healing power and such things. Delete no. 7 then if you like. It is not that important i think. > I didnt read the rest but holy cow, kitten? Its alrdy pretty meh even on 35s cd, but making it equal to https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shadowstep ? Not like deleting what is alrdy bad would make a difference :joy: > >Illusionary ambush (actually the whole retargeting mechanic, means for axe 3 only an evade and port to target but no retargeting anymore) should be deleted completely actually, what ofc will not happen. At least IA should get a 50+s cd. > I wouldnt trust balancing to you tbh xD I deleted Superiority Complex from my post already. What value to you see in the retargeting mechanic? It is not needed to define Mirage as a different spec to core with different playstyle (at least when IH is used). It is just a low skill ceiling mechanic very annoying to face, toxic by itself. IA compared to Decoy what has 45s cd is way weaker. IA is a max range teleport + dodge+ insane dmg from ambushes (incl clones without IH traited)+ retargeting. In my experience only low skilled Mirages like to use this mechanic, it can buy a lot of time by just standing still and spam ambushes. Something we don't want to have. Builds that can spam ambushes only and have enough impact in fights with only that are not healthy and low skill ceiling. The randomness in posititon change and clone replacement is nothing the Mesmer or the opponent can tactically work with in terms of mind gaming. Randomness always deletes a big part of skill ceiling/ mind games from encounters. IA is toxic asf. Axe 3 is less of an issue but in the end the whole retargeting mechanic is a mess should have never been added to the game. It has way less counterplay and tactical deepness than stealth, what ppl cry about already. If you Mesmer mains want to give up something to make you less hated by the community i think this mess retargeting mechanic is a good thing to be deleted first, it doesn't add any skill ceiling anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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