Balance of Condi and Power

[Jski.6180]

What it comes down to is condis are simply un-fun to play vs they always have been and the main reason why they where nerfed over and over. This is a near action combat game so you should be able to see attks coming your way and dodge accordingly sadly a lot of the condi dmg attks have low cast time and low animations to react to. When they do hit you need to react in a very set long cd way who offten has no cast time in it self. There just no real game play going on here classes who run condi are getting free hits with short cd and the counter play are often free clears with long cd.

 

Dieing to condis feels bad even worst then getting one shot by power dmg. They are not good as a main score for dmg in spvp and wvw because it feels like your cheated when some one apply condi you counter it then the condis are right back on you right after. It feels like a gimmick game play.

 

[pninak.1069]

> @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > @"pninak.1069" said:

> > wrong. I cleanse one condi on first teleport to him condi bomb and if I have condis left I clear atleast one. if I am about to die I use a 3 clone shatter of diversion and save 3 seconds of life to do dmg

> >

>

> You cleanse on condition, and if you fail to hit the burning, you just die. Not the uh, greatest idea. Actually Im not sure you survive if you dont cleanse the torment either. And you dont get to live long enough to even get 3 clones. Nevermind the fact that he might just fear you when you jump on him. And no, I assumed you didnt have boons. Theyre not neccessary.

 

yea but the first skill he uses a boon corruption. how do you corrupt smth that isn't there. and you don't know if the scourge uses demonic lore or feed from corruption. I'd personally choose the latter, because it can give you free health recovery etc. but you lose dmg. so you assume he chooses demonic lore fine. so I tp to him while cleansing one activating my torch cleansing another one do the condibomb. if it fails I can still do diversion collect mirrors. stunbreak fear with utility. but normally if I know he engages into the fight I try to have atleast 2 clones in order to get more condi bombs out. with scepter ambush I normally get 16-24 stacks of confusion on an enemy for a short amount of time and a lot of players unable to turn of their autoattack leading to them taking high dmg and pretty much wasting their condi cleanse, because dmg from confuion was taken already.

[eXruina.4956]

Lol.. its laughable, as if there's even an argument to be had, why don't they unlock Dire and Trailblazer stats in PvP and lets see how the current meta turns out, heck sure throw Minstrel's in there while yer at it.., thats basically what small-medium scale WvW looks like at the moment bar the necessity to cap nodes. Them stats were removed for a reason. ^^

[UNOwen.7132]

> @"lodjur.1284" said:

> > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > @"lodjur.1284" said:

> > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > > > @"lodjur.1284" said:

> > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > > > > > @"lodjur.1284" said:

> > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > > > > > > > @"Dawdler.8521" said:

> > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > > > > > > > > Condi Rev doesnt because they just want to do *even more damage*, and their survivability is fine even without defensive stats.

> > > > > > > > > And other classes? You know the classes that have long since realized they need the sustain to be viable fighting power builds?

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > The problem is, you know who else realised that? *Power builds*. Difference is, they cant go full damage while going full defense at the same time. And, well, their survivability is fine. Take condi thief, or even Condi Mirage. Their survivability would be the *exact same* as the equivalent power build, if they had the same defensive stats. They just get to take a bunch of free tankiness ontop of that.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Condi thief and mirage are indeed problematic, the armor stats aren't the problems though.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > It's the class design, even as condi they're highly mobile and bursty.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > The only solution I can see is to force their condi weapons into hybrid ones, to the point where they need to run Viper/Grieving to achieve respectable damage, or completely gutting their power variants.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Removing trailblazer/dire (and apothecary and shaman and so on) would drastically reduce build diversity and leave thief and mirage (and a few other fringe options) as the only viable condi options, as they don't "need" trailblazer the same way that a non-bursty melee build does.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Tanky, melee, non-bursty condi builds should definitively exist and they need trailblazer.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Also condi revenant most definitively runs trailblazer and the only problematic parts of the build is

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > True Nature - Demon has 600 radius and is unavoidable (ignores evade, block and blind) and has the potential to "1-shot".

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Infuse Light (dragon heal) is problematic as it's the kinda skill that really carries people, especially when already outnumbering.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > This is why condi herald is hard to kill, not runes of Tormenting or trailblazer.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I wish Anet would implement something similar to ArcDPS dmg taken function in the core game so people could also see how rare it is that condition dmg is above 50% (or even above 30% for that matter).

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Actually, theyre not problematic, theyre both probably on the weaker side, I just used them as examples because they tend to use the same survivability as their power counterparts. Anyway, removing Trailblazer would keep the builds still viable. Even removing Dire would, you still have Rabid. Anyway, tanky condi builds are fine so long as they do the exact same level of damage as tanky power builds, instead of 3 or 4 times as much. They dont need Trailblazer, just like Prot Holo doesnt need Paladins, or even Demolishers.

> > > > >

> > > > > They definitively are, though imo not more than their power variants.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > Their power variants also arent problematic. In case of Mesmer, less so.

> > >

> > > They are.

> > >

> >

> > Again, hardly. Power Mesmer and power thief both are burst builds that dont burst very well. Theyre not even very good.

>

> Problematic =/= good

>

> Both are very strong 1v1 too so eh.

>

> Ghost thief was never good, but it was definitively problematic. At least if were talking out of combat stealth burst builds. Cant say Ive seen many thieves like that though.

>

 

Theyre both not great in 1v1s. Power Mesmer might be slightly better if he gets the drop on you. But fair enough on the problematic.

 

> > > > > Rabid is not even close to the third best condi statcombo. It's maybe 6th best, if even that.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > Hardly. There are others good if you got a bunch of healing, but most condi builds dont really have much.

> > >

> > > It's always about incoming dps vs incoming hps on condi builds that care about toughness in the first place

> > >

> >

> > The point of Toughness is just to reduce power damage. Most condi builds also have ways of dealing with condis themselves.

>

> Of course they do. Why wouldn't they?

>

> Even if there was no condi dmg at all, sigil of cleansing would still be the best sigil in the game just to clear immobilize/chill etc.

>

 

Which ... has nothing to do with Toughness being great on condi builds?

 

> > > > > There's plenty of tanky power builds that push out those levels of dmg,

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > Not really. Power builds are either tanky, or do that much damage. Not both.

> > > >

> > > > > Warrior in zerker+durability for example is tankier than most trailblaze/dire builds.

> > > > >

> > > > Zerker Durability? Nah. But there is a Durability build that is about as tanky as Trailblazer/Dire builds. It also does a fraction of their damage.

> > >

> > > Durability runes have been the go to for a very long time for warrior (and basically every other remotely tanky power build I guess)

> > >

> >

> > They have been, but if you go Zerker Durability, youre not even half as tanky as a tanky condi build.

>

> Between your various invulns/blocks/resistance etc, together with very high mobility, you very much are at least as tanky as a condi rev.

>

 

Warrior can only shrug off one type of damage at a time, or he is blocking. Problem is, while youre blocking, youre not doing damage. And if you want to do the same level of damage, youre not nearly as tanky, so your heals are less effective.

 

> > > > > Scrapper is tanky in some mix of Marauder+zerk+durability and definitively does respectable damage

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > This one is pretty tanky. But its damage is, once again, a fraction of an equivalent tanky condi build.

> > >

> > > No it isn't, scrapper can do good dmg

> > >

> >

> > It can do *decent* damage. But not even *remotely* in the ballpark of a condi build. With condi builds, youre looking at up to 10k burst damage, and sustained DPS of like 5k+ per second. On Scrapper, youre looking at half that, at *best*. Usually less. There is no comparision, Scrapper does only a fraction of the condi builds damage.

>

> If a scrapper is only doing half of a condi rev in the same situation they're flat out playing bad, or have a very bad scrapper build. Probably both.

>

> 5k per second lmao, talk about hyperbole. Assuming you mean single target, cause on AoE or just depends on the number of targets, more so than the skills used.

>

> It's rare that I get incoming dmg of over 2. 5k/sec vs power or condi in 1v1s. This while playing a build with low avoidance uptime, so the numbers are fairly reasonable.

>

 

Incorrect. Im starting to think you have never faced a condi rev if you seriously think *Scrapper* can do even remotely as much damage as they do. And given that you think 5k per second is hyperbole, rather than an *underestimation*, yeah you definitely havent. The build does 3k per second even through repeated cleanses, now imagine what happens if they dont have cleanse. No, Scrapper wont do even remotely as much damage. Theyre a great player, theyre playing the optimal scrapper build. Doesnt matter. They just dont have the damage, not even remotely.

 

> > > > > There's a ton more tanky power builds with high dmg, but not gonna list all of them here.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > There are tanky builds that do a decent amount of damage. But accross all of them, you have the same issue. Theyre either less tanky, or do a fraction of the damage of the equivalent condi builds. Of course, Condi builds do have to contend with multiple condition cleanses, and they would *still* be superior.

> > >

> > > That's just incorrect. Warrior and scrapper for example are both very strong at the moment. Both are tanky power builds (that also have an extremely easy time dealing with condi).

> > >

> >

> > Theyre decent builds. But that doesnt change the fact that they are either less tanky, or do *much* less damage, than condi builds. They have other strengths, utility and CC, but damage wise, its just such a huge gap.

>

> The dmg gap isn't massive. They're comparable, obviously some condi builds have a little bit more sustained dmg as they lack burst (and therefore should have more sustained dmg).

>

 

Its objectively massive. Even through repeated cleanses with things like Firebrand, condi builds outdamage power builds. Now imagine there is no firebrand. Way bigger. They dont have "a little" more sustained damage, they have easily twice as much, if not more, sustained damage. Sadly, they also do *not* lack burst. If anything, they actually burst better right now. A burn Guard can easily burst for 11k on the first tick of burning, with the second tick killing. And that burst is *instant*. Power? No such luck.

 

> > > > > I am actually in favor of demolisher existing in WvW, it would definitively see a lot of use.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > Right now? It wouldnt. Its basically Marauders, but significantly worse against the currently overperforming condi builds.

> > >

> > > It definitively would, warrior would run at least a number of it.

> > >

> >

> > Why would Warrior run it? There are hardly any Power builds around, and its a lot weaker against condi builds. There is legitimately *no* reason to drop Marauder for Demolishers.

>

> Warrior shouldn't run Marauder atm, it's terrible. They already have like 22k hp with durability runes in pure zerk.

>

> Demolisher would def be optimal to run a number of.

>

 

Of course it should run Marauder, its great. Yes, they already have a lot of health. But more health is better. And the optimal number of Demolishers is 0. Its worse than Marauder by a ***wide*** margin in this condi meta. Youre basically obtaining a stat that does literally nothing against the strongest, and most prevalent damage type. While only being very slightly better against the weaker damage type. Why do you think not a single power build runs even a single piece of toughness armour? Even *Diviner* is being run.

 

> > > > > Paladin too, though I think it wouldn't be particularly used.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > It has a better chance, but probably not.

> > >

> > > No it doesn't.

> > >

> >

> > It does. It gives vitality, which is the best defensive stat right now. There is at least a case to be made over Marauders. There isnt for Demolishers.

>

> Vitality makes you die slower, it doesn't make you survive, after roughly the 20-25k mark it's fairly pointless on most builds, toughness shifts the incoming dps vs hps in your favor.

>

 

Thats what surviving means. Its dying slower. And you would be (technically) right if power was prevalent and the stronger damage type. Its not, and its not. Against condi, instead of Vitality giving you 5000 extra EHP, Toughness gives you close to 0 EHP. In a meta where that damage type is far more powerful and prevalent, thats bad.

 

> > > > > As far as I am concerned we should just be able to "create" or own stat combinations following the current rules. (ie 4 stat gives 10% more than 3 stat, with 2 big and 2 small stats etc.)

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > That would certainly break condi even more. Until it gets a rework (Which it does need badly), we shouldnt do anything like that.

> > >

> > > As condi I almost have my perfect stat combinations though. The ones I could create with such a system would be marginal improvements.

> > >

> >

> > For power, there is no improvement at all. We pretty much have the most optimal combination, its sadly not a tanky one. We cant afford to play the tanky builds.

>

> Marauder but with big ferocity instead of precision (and small precision) would see a lot of use, especially in combination with Marauder to max out effective power.

>

> Marauder but with healing power instead of vit would see some use, it would be especially strong vs condi.

>

> Just 2 power stat combos of the top of my head, I am sure there's a lot more that would see some use.

>

 

The first wouldnt, given that the builds that completely max out on precision already have better stats to go for. The latter also wouldnt. Avatar stats exist (swapping ferocity for healing power instead), and its completely unused. For regular power builds healing power just isnt good enough. For bunker builds, they have better options.

 

> > > > > > I mean, that would not say much given that it depends on who youre facing, how often, and so on. But I can tell you this, every time I look through my combat log after roaming around in WvW for a couple hours, its almost entirely condition damage.

> > > > >

> > > > > "Look through combat log"

> > > > >

> > > > > Use arcdps. The combat log is trash.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > The combat log perfectly represents the damage youve taken. Arcdps only makes it easier to read, but has issues with how it counts damage.

> > >

> > > It doesn't have any issues.

> > >

> > > > > I look through logs after every evening of smallscale WvW and also shortly after each fight. With an average group size of 3 (sometimes 2, rarely 4).

> > > > >

> > > > > I extremely rarely take more than 30% condi dmg. Much less 50%

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > If youre playing with a group, odds are you have AoE condi cleanses. Perhaps even once you dont notice.

> > >

> > > I actually would, because I know the build of everyone I play with.

> > >

> > > I know that a tempest isn't gonna throw me any clears, cause the only group clears it has is 1 clear on the shout heal and overload water, which is used very sparsely.

> > >

> > > I know that the other dps in my group doesn't actually have any AoE clears.

> > >

> > > Even so I can look at logs and conclude that I usually get about 1 clear/30 sec from others, hardly a massive amount.

> > >

> >

> > Water Overload clears 4 conditions. I also cant imagine they wouldnt be running the water traitline which adds some more clears. But, if what you say is true, then youre just extremely lucky with your enemies. Especially because if what you say is true, a single Condition Revenant should rip and tear through your entire team.

>

> Water doesn't actually give much clear of you take powerful aura. Especially if you also take soothing disruption, which the tempest in question does.

>

> As I said in most fights it averages out to 1 clear/25-35 sec.

>

> Overload water isn't exactly something you can spam when outnumbered since you will just get CCed get water on 20 sec cd and die.

>

> Also we just cc and kill the condi revs before they do.

>

> Condi rev is also weak to power so you shouldn't really struggle with them.

>

 

Condi rev is not weak to power. At *all*. Also if youre outnumbering to the point where you can CC and kill the condi rev without him fighting back, sure. But then you can do the exact same thing with every single build in the game, and you should be taking absolutely 0 damage. And even then Im gonna have to doubt it, because just Invoke Torment + Embrace the Darkness would still be ticking and completely obliterate your team with your lack of cleanses ensuring your untimely demise.

 

> > > > > The times I do are:

> > > > > 1v1 with condi builds (lol)

> > > > > Eating a big transfer from transfer herald

> > > > > The time I get stuck in SoJ

> > > > >

> > > > > My support essentially has no group clears (WET tempest with powerful aura and no trooper runes, usually does roughly 10% of my clears according to logs) and I mostly just have sigil of cleansing as my clears, so hardly overloading on anti-condi stuff.

> > > > >

> > > > > This is with permanent protection as well so I "should" be taking more condi dmg than power.

> > > >

> > > > Then perhaps you just got extremely lucky. Its *very* rare for me to take more power than condi damage. Obviously, most roamers I meet are condi because its better, and they do more damage, because its better. And keep in mind, Im playing Core Engineer with Elixir C and its *still* not enough.

> > >

> > > I got extremely "lucky" in almost every fight, every evening since the patch across a multitude of various matchups.

> > >

> > > Sounds very likely.

> > >

> >

> > About as likely as being able to survive a condi rev with just Sigil of Cleansing. Which is to say, not possible. Ergo, you mustve been able to avoid Condi Revs entirely. Because if you actually faced one, you would get condi bombed, use Sigil of cleansing, get condi bombed *again* and die in 2 seconds. Given that, it means that if youre not taking that much condi damage, you just arent facing condi builds. Simple as that.

>

> Have you tried combining cleansing with dodging key skills, counterpressuring, stunning them etc?

>

 

Yes? Do you think that works, though? Because their "key skills" are pulsing AoEs, instant AoEs and other undodgable things. If just CCing was enough to kill them, it would be enough to kill anyone. Counterpressuring would work if any attempt to pressure them doesnt also get me killed, and way faster than they are.

 

> > > I wish I was fighting more condi then I could just equip one of the many extremely strong counters and take vastly less dmg than I do now.

> > >

> > > You do realize that clears aren't supposed to make you immune right, just delay your death. So that you can kill them before they kill you. Of you frequently struggle it's either a player error or your build should run more clears.

> > >

> >

> > Thats the theory. In actuality, the way it works out is that you try to delay your death 4 or 5 times, and then die anyway because even with an abundance of condi clears, the enemy build is both much tankier and does a metric crapton more damage than you do. To put it bluntly, my build cannot run any more condi clears. Its literally maxed out on them. Including several that clear the entire condi bomb. And guess what? Its *still* nowhere close enough.

>

> Then you're not pressuring them back

 

Nope, I am. But even when pressuring them, they still kill you faster than you kill them. Any attempt to hit them makes them able to hit you. Its not a trade you win.

 

>and ccing them,

 

Nope. I am CC-ing them. Sadly, thats not a magical fix-all method. There is this concept called "stunbreak". It allows for the Revenant to break out of stuns, or other CC. They further have another tool called "stability", it prevents the next CC.

 

>you could just be playing worse than they are, or your build might lack pressure.

 

Nope, and nope. My build has plenty of pressure, but of course, its not a condi build, especially not condi rev, so it has less. Im playing as well as you can, but its just not winnable.

 

> > > I somehow don't struggle with sigil of cleansing being about 75% of my clears.

> >

> > Which simply means you arent facing condi builds. If you did, you would simply lose instantly because Sigil of Cleansing is about 15 condis cleansed too little.

>

> I fight them quite frequently, transfer heralds specifically are very common and people like to bust them out to try to kill you with true nature Demon alone. Not as often as power builds though.

>

> I of course like anyone every now and then have fights where condi dmg is the bulk of what kills me, but they're fairly rare.

>

> Both dmg types would have the possibility of killing enemies, so that I every now and then die to mostly condi is fairly natural. The fact remains that it's far less common than how often power is the bulk of the dmg I take.

>

 

You claim that, with Sigil of Cleansing, you totally dont struggle with them. That is impossible. If you are fighting them, relying on Cleansing Sigil, you should be dying instantly unless they are *terrible*. Given that, and given that you claim that, even with sigil of cleansing and toughness, you take less damage from power, despite the fact that accross my last couple weeks of roaming roughly 80% of roamers I encountered were condi, means that you are just not facing condi builds.

 

> > @"Gorani.7205" said:

> > My subjective observations (running a Marauder Tempest for roaming & small scale fights with allies)

> > I encounter power based one shot builds a lot less and do a lot better vs. power based builds, especially Thieves.

> > I see a lot more condi based professions around, especially Rev/Herald and Necros. The number of condis they can dump on you compared to my cleanses makes them winners in fights that drag out. Losing some punch by CC skills not having a decent damage component seems to be as much a factor as power having lost its big spike potential.

> > I have to admit, I don't run Runes/Sigils that remove condis, but the fact that this is strongly advised at the moment should be an indication of some Condi "supremacy" over Power specs.

>

> So you shouldn't have to run any condi clears?

>

> Sigil of cleansing would be the strongest sigil even if condi dmg didn't exist, because immob exists (and the other debilitating conditions).

>

> Giving up a sigil is such an extremely tiny concession and cleansing does so much versus it, so tbh if you don't run cleansing and die to condi it's your own fault.

>

> Power is still dominant. Like it's always been (or at least it has the entire time I played, which is since slightly pre-HoT)

 

Yes, power is so dominant almost no roamer uses power, and the few that do are still outclassed by condi builds. Its so dominant the best roamers are Condi Rev, Burn Weaver, Burn Guard and various versions of condi necro.

[UNOwen.7132]

> @"pninak.1069" said:

> > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > @"pninak.1069" said:

> > > wrong. I cleanse one condi on first teleport to him condi bomb and if I have condis left I clear atleast one. if I am about to die I use a 3 clone shatter of diversion and save 3 seconds of life to do dmg

> > >

> >

> > You cleanse on condition, and if you fail to hit the burning, you just die. Not the uh, greatest idea. Actually Im not sure you survive if you dont cleanse the torment either. And you dont get to live long enough to even get 3 clones. Nevermind the fact that he might just fear you when you jump on him. And no, I assumed you didnt have boons. Theyre not neccessary.

>

> yea but the first skill he uses a boon corruption. how do you corrupt smth that isn't there. and you don't know if the scourge uses demonic lore or feed from corruption. I'd personally choose the latter, because it can give you free health recovery etc. but you lose dmg. so you assume he chooses demonic lore fine. so I tp to him while cleansing one activating my torch cleansing another one do the condibomb. if it fails I can still do diversion collect mirrors. stunbreak fear with utility. but normally if I know he engages into the fight I try to have atleast 2 clones in order to get more condi bombs out. with scepter ambush I normally get 16-24 stacks of confusion on an enemy for a short amount of time and a lot of players unable to turn of their autoattack leading to them taking high dmg and pretty much wasting their condi cleanse, because dmg from confuion was taken already.

 

Dessicate is basically just there to activate Sadistic Searing. Couldve been Serpent Siphon too. The actual one doesnt matter. Scourge uses Demonic Lore. The latter is not a great option, the former massively increases damage. Alright, lets say you do that (though youre not actually close enough to TP on him with Jaunt, but I digress). You do the condi bomb. He activates Garish Pillar, hits you with a second condi bomb. Youre dead. He wins. End of story.

[lodjur.1284]

> @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > @"lodjur.1284" said:

> > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > > @"lodjur.1284" said:

> > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > > > > @"lodjur.1284" said:

> > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > > > > > > @"lodjur.1284" said:

> > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > > > > > > > > @"Dawdler.8521" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > Condi Rev doesnt because they just want to do *even more damage*, and their survivability is fine even without defensive stats.

> > > > > > > > > > And other classes? You know the classes that have long since realized they need the sustain to be viable fighting power builds?

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > The problem is, you know who else realised that? *Power builds*. Difference is, they cant go full damage while going full defense at the same time. And, well, their survivability is fine. Take condi thief, or even Condi Mirage. Their survivability would be the *exact same* as the equivalent power build, if they had the same defensive stats. They just get to take a bunch of free tankiness ontop of that.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Condi thief and mirage are indeed problematic, the armor stats aren't the problems though.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > It's the class design, even as condi they're highly mobile and bursty.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > The only solution I can see is to force their condi weapons into hybrid ones, to the point where they need to run Viper/Grieving to achieve respectable damage, or completely gutting their power variants.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Removing trailblazer/dire (and apothecary and shaman and so on) would drastically reduce build diversity and leave thief and mirage (and a few other fringe options) as the only viable condi options, as they don't "need" trailblazer the same way that a non-bursty melee build does.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Tanky, melee, non-bursty condi builds should definitively exist and they need trailblazer.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Also condi revenant most definitively runs trailblazer and the only problematic parts of the build is

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > True Nature - Demon has 600 radius and is unavoidable (ignores evade, block and blind) and has the potential to "1-shot".

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Infuse Light (dragon heal) is problematic as it's the kinda skill that really carries people, especially when already outnumbering.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > This is why condi herald is hard to kill, not runes of Tormenting or trailblazer.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > I wish Anet would implement something similar to ArcDPS dmg taken function in the core game so people could also see how rare it is that condition dmg is above 50% (or even above 30% for that matter).

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Actually, theyre not problematic, theyre both probably on the weaker side, I just used them as examples because they tend to use the same survivability as their power counterparts. Anyway, removing Trailblazer would keep the builds still viable. Even removing Dire would, you still have Rabid. Anyway, tanky condi builds are fine so long as they do the exact same level of damage as tanky power builds, instead of 3 or 4 times as much. They dont need Trailblazer, just like Prot Holo doesnt need Paladins, or even Demolishers.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > They definitively are, though imo not more than their power variants.

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Their power variants also arent problematic. In case of Mesmer, less so.

> > > >

> > > > They are.

> > > >

> > >

> > > Again, hardly. Power Mesmer and power thief both are burst builds that dont burst very well. Theyre not even very good.

> >

> > Problematic =/= good

> >

> > Both are very strong 1v1 too so eh.

> >

> > Ghost thief was never good, but it was definitively problematic.

> >

>

> Theyre both not great in 1v1s. Power Mesmer might be slightly better if he gets the drop on you. But fair enough on the problematic.

>

> > > > > > Rabid is not even close to the third best condi statcombo. It's maybe 6th best, if even that.

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Hardly. There are others good if you got a bunch of healing, but most condi builds dont really have much.

> > > >

> > > > It's always about incoming dps vs incoming hps on condi builds that care about toughness in the first place

> > > >

> > >

> > > The point of Toughness is just to reduce power damage. Most condi builds also have ways of dealing with condis themselves.

> >

> > Of course they do. Why wouldn't they?

> >

> > Even if there was no condi dmg at all, sigil of cleansing would still be the best sigil in the game just to clear immobilize/chill etc.

> >

>

> Which ... has nothing to do with Toughness being great on condi builds?

 

"Most condi builds also have ways of dealing with condis themselves."

 

> > > > > > There's plenty of tanky power builds that push out those levels of dmg,

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Not really. Power builds are either tanky, or do that much damage. Not both.

> > > > >

> > > > > > Warrior in zerker+durability for example is tankier than most trailblaze/dire builds.

> > > > > >

> > > > > Zerker Durability? Nah. But there is a Durability build that is about as tanky as Trailblazer/Dire builds. It also does a fraction of their damage.

> > > >

> > > > Durability runes have been the go to for a very long time for warrior (and basically every other remotely tanky power build I guess)

> > > >

> > >

> > > They have been, but if you go Zerker Durability, youre not even half as tanky as a tanky condi build.

> >

> > Between your various invulns/blocks/resistance etc, together with very high mobility, you very much are at least as tanky as a condi rev.

> >

>

> Warrior can only shrug off one type of damage at a time, or he is blocking. Problem is, while youre blocking, youre not doing damage. And if you want to do the same level of damage, youre not nearly as tanky, so your heals are less effective.

 

But according to you power is nonexistent so...

 

Also you can activate 2 stances at once, shocker I know.

 

> > > > > > Scrapper is tanky in some mix of Marauder+zerk+durability and definitively does respectable damage

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > This one is pretty tanky. But its damage is, once again, a fraction of an equivalent tanky condi build.

> > > >

> > > > No it isn't, scrapper can do good dmg

> > > >

> > >

> > > It can do *decent* damage. But not even *remotely* in the ballpark of a condi build. With condi builds, youre looking at up to 10k burst damage, and sustained DPS of like 5k+ per second. On Scrapper, youre looking at half that, at *best*. Usually less. There is no comparision, Scrapper does only a fraction of the condi builds damage.

> >

> > If a scrapper is only doing half of a condi rev in the same situation they're flat out playing bad, or have a very bad scrapper build. Probably both.

> >

> > 5k per second lmao, talk about hyperbole. Assuming you mean single target, cause on AoE or just depends on the number of targets, more so than the skills used.

> >

> > It's rare that I get incoming dmg of over 2. 5k/sec vs power or condi in 1v1s. This while playing a build with low avoidance uptime, so the numbers are fairly reasonable.

> >

>

> Incorrect. Im starting to think you have never faced a condi rev if you seriously think *Scrapper* can do even remotely as much damage as they do. And given that you think 5k per second is hyperbole, rather than an *underestimation*, yeah you definitely havent. The build does 3k per second even through repeated cleanses, now imagine what happens if they dont have cleanse. No, Scrapper wont do even remotely as much damage. Theyre a great player, theyre playing the optimal scrapper build. Doesnt matter. They just dont have the damage, not even remotely.

 

Flat out wrong, sorry. This is why people should have arcdps on...

 

> > > > > > There's a ton more tanky power builds with high dmg, but not gonna list all of them here.

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > There are tanky builds that do a decent amount of damage. But accross all of them, you have the same issue. Theyre either less tanky, or do a fraction of the damage of the equivalent condi builds. Of course, Condi builds do have to contend with multiple condition cleanses, and they would *still* be superior.

> > > >

> > > > That's just incorrect. Warrior and scrapper for example are both very strong at the moment. Both are tanky power builds (that also have an extremely easy time dealing with condi).

> > > >

> > >

> > > Theyre decent builds. But that doesnt change the fact that they are either less tanky, or do *much* less damage, than condi builds. They have other strengths, utility and CC, but damage wise, its just such a huge gap.

> >

> > The dmg gap isn't massive. They're comparable, obviously some condi builds have a little bit more sustained dmg as they lack burst (and therefore should have more sustained dmg).

> >

>

> Its objectively massive. Even through repeated cleanses with things like Firebrand, condi builds outdamage power builds. Now imagine there is no firebrand. Way bigger. They dont have "a little" more sustained damage, they have easily twice as much, if not more, sustained damage. Sadly, they also do *not* lack burst. If anything, they actually burst better right now. A burn Guard can easily burst for 11k on the first tick of burning, with the second tick killing. And that burst is *instant*. Power? No such luck.

 

No they don't.

 

I don't have a pocket firebrand, I don't struggle with condi...

 

Burn guard has been mentioned, it definitively has too much burst. But this is also a ridiculous hyperbole, I haven't been ticked 11k burn ever I think, certainly not commonly and burnguards are common.

 

> > > > > > I am actually in favor of demolisher existing in WvW, it would definitively see a lot of use.

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Right now? It wouldnt. Its basically Marauders, but significantly worse against the currently overperforming condi builds.

> > > >

> > > > It definitively would, warrior would run at least a number of it.

> > > >

> > >

> > > Why would Warrior run it? There are hardly any Power builds around, and its a lot weaker against condi builds. There is legitimately *no* reason to drop Marauder for Demolishers.

> >

> > Warrior shouldn't run Marauder atm, it's terrible. They already have like 22k hp with durability runes in pure zerk.

> >

> > Demolisher would def be optimal to run a number of.

> >

>

> Of course it should run Marauder, its great. Yes, they already have a lot of health. But more health is better. And the optimal number of Demolishers is 0. Its worse than Marauder by a ***wide*** margin in this condi meta. Youre basically obtaining a stat that does literally nothing against the strongest, and most prevalent damage type. While only being very slightly better against the weaker damage type. Why do you think not a single power build runs even a single piece of toughness armour? Even *Diviner* is being run.

 

Because there's no good power+toughness stat combos in WvW.

 

> > > > > > Paladin too, though I think it wouldn't be particularly used.

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > It has a better chance, but probably not.

> > > >

> > > > No it doesn't.

> > > >

> > >

> > > It does. It gives vitality, which is the best defensive stat right now. There is at least a case to be made over Marauders. There isnt for Demolishers.

> >

> > Vitality makes you die slower, it doesn't make you survive, after roughly the 20-25k mark it's fairly pointless on most builds, toughness shifts the incoming dps vs hps in your favor.

> >

>

> Thats what surviving means. Its dying slower. And you would be (technically) right if power was prevalent and the stronger damage type. Its not, and its not. Against condi, instead of Vitality giving you 5000 extra EHP, Toughness gives you close to 0 EHP. In a meta where that damage type is far more powerful and prevalent, thats bad.

 

Surviving =/= dying slower

 

Necro dies slowly, yet lacks the ability to survive, since it's basically a hp pinata. See the difference?

 

Hyperbole and incorrect again.

 

> > > > > > As far as I am concerned we should just be able to "create" or own stat combinations following the current rules. (ie 4 stat gives 10% more than 3 stat, with 2 big and 2 small stats etc.)

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > That would certainly break condi even more. Until it gets a rework (Which it does need badly), we shouldnt do anything like that.

> > > >

> > > > As condi I almost have my perfect stat combinations though. The ones I could create with such a system would be marginal improvements.

> > > >

> > >

> > > For power, there is no improvement at all. We pretty much have the most optimal combination, its sadly not a tanky one. We cant afford to play the tanky builds.

> >

> > Marauder but with big ferocity instead of precision (and small precision) would see a lot of use, especially in combination with Marauder to max out effective power.

> >

> > Marauder but with healing power instead of vit would see some use, it would be especially strong vs condi.

> >

> > Just 2 power stat combos of the top of my head, I am sure there's a lot more that would see some use.

> >

>

> The first wouldnt, given that the builds that completely max out on precision already have better stats to go for. The latter also wouldnt. Avatar stats exist (swapping ferocity for healing power instead), and its completely unused. For regular power builds healing power just isnt good enough. For bunker builds, they have better options.

 

Power reaper would use marauder with big fero and small preci in some numbers as max hp scales well with shroud.

 

Avatar isn't even similar, it has no ferocity and is in sPvP a very different environment.

 

> > > > > > > I mean, that would not say much given that it depends on who youre facing, how often, and so on. But I can tell you this, every time I look through my combat log after roaming around in WvW for a couple hours, its almost entirely condition damage.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > "Look through combat log"

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Use arcdps. The combat log is trash.

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > The combat log perfectly represents the damage youve taken. Arcdps only makes it easier to read, but has issues with how it counts damage.

> > > >

> > > > It doesn't have any issues.

> > > >

> > > > > > I look through logs after every evening of smallscale WvW and also shortly after each fight. With an average group size of 3 (sometimes 2, rarely 4).

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I extremely rarely take more than 30% condi dmg. Much less 50%

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > If youre playing with a group, odds are you have AoE condi cleanses. Perhaps even once you dont notice.

> > > >

> > > > I actually would, because I know the build of everyone I play with.

> > > >

> > > > I know that a tempest isn't gonna throw me any clears, cause the only group clears it has is 1 clear on the shout heal and overload water, which is used very sparsely.

> > > >

> > > > I know that the other dps in my group doesn't actually have any AoE clears.

> > > >

> > > > Even so I can look at logs and conclude that I usually get about 1 clear/30 sec from others, hardly a massive amount.

> > > >

> > >

> > > Water Overload clears 4 conditions. I also cant imagine they wouldnt be running the water traitline which adds some more clears. But, if what you say is true, then youre just extremely lucky with your enemies. Especially because if what you say is true, a single Condition Revenant should rip and tear through your entire team.

> >

> > Water doesn't actually give much clear of you take powerful aura. Especially if you also take soothing disruption, which the tempest in question does.

> >

> > As I said in most fights it averages out to 1 clear/25-35 sec.

> >

> > Overload water isn't exactly something you can spam when outnumbered since you will just get CCed get water on 20 sec cd and die.

> >

> > Also we just cc and kill the condi revs before they do.

> >

> > Condi rev is also weak to power so you shouldn't really struggle with them.

> >

>

> Condi rev is not weak to power. At *all*. Also if youre outnumbering to the point where you can CC and kill the condi rev without him fighting back, sure. But then you can do the exact same thing with every single build in the game, and you should be taking absolutely 0 damage. And even then Im gonna have to doubt it, because just Invoke Torment + Embrace the Darkness would still be ticking and completely obliterate your team with your lack of cleanses ensuring your untimely demise.

 

Well invoke torment is a whole 1 stack of torment

 

EtD is 1 stack /sec, 3 if they can consistently use skills. Hardly anything that anyone with healing and reasonable clears would die to.

 

It's also all 240 radius, just don't stand on it.

 

 

Sigil of cleansing isn't lack of clears lmao.

 

> > > > > > The times I do are:

> > > > > > 1v1 with condi builds (lol)

> > > > > > Eating a big transfer from transfer herald

> > > > > > The time I get stuck in SoJ

> > > > > >

> > > > > > My support essentially has no group clears (WET tempest with powerful aura and no trooper runes, usually does roughly 10% of my clears according to logs) and I mostly just have sigil of cleansing as my clears, so hardly overloading on anti-condi stuff.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > This is with permanent protection as well so I "should" be taking more condi dmg than power.

> > > > >

> > > > > Then perhaps you just got extremely lucky. Its *very* rare for me to take more power than condi damage. Obviously, most roamers I meet are condi because its better, and they do more damage, because its better. And keep in mind, Im playing Core Engineer with Elixir C and its *still* not enough.

> > > >

> > > > I got extremely "lucky" in almost every fight, every evening since the patch across a multitude of various matchups.

> > > >

> > > > Sounds very likely.

> > > >

> > >

> > > About as likely as being able to survive a condi rev with just Sigil of Cleansing. Which is to say, not possible. Ergo, you mustve been able to avoid Condi Revs entirely. Because if you actually faced one, you would get condi bombed, use Sigil of cleansing, get condi bombed *again* and die in 2 seconds. Given that, it means that if youre not taking that much condi damage, you just arent facing condi builds. Simple as that.

> >

> > Have you tried combining cleansing with dodging key skills, counterpressuring, stunning them etc?

> >

>

> Yes? Do you think that works, though? Because their "key skills" are pulsing AoEs, instant AoEs and other undodgable things. If just CCing was enough to kill them, it would be enough to kill anyone. Counterpressuring would work if any attempt to pressure them doesnt also get me killed, and way faster than they are.

 

Assuming you're talking about condi rev still.

 

Pulsing AoEs can be moved out of.

 

Mace 3 on rev is the key pressure skill they have, it is very telegraphed.

CtA is also very telegraphed.

Searing fissure too.

 

> > > > I wish I was fighting more condi then I could just equip one of the many extremely strong counters and take vastly less dmg than I do now.

> > > >

> > > > You do realize that clears aren't supposed to make you immune right, just delay your death. So that you can kill them before they kill you. Of you frequently struggle it's either a player error or your build should run more clears.

> > > >

> > >

> > > Thats the theory. In actuality, the way it works out is that you try to delay your death 4 or 5 times, and then die anyway because even with an abundance of condi clears, the enemy build is both much tankier and does a metric crapton more damage than you do. To put it bluntly, my build cannot run any more condi clears. Its literally maxed out on them. Including several that clear the entire condi bomb. And guess what? Its *still* nowhere close enough.

> >

> > Then you're not pressuring them back

>

> Nope, I am. But even when pressuring them, they still kill you faster than you kill them. Any attempt to hit them makes them able to hit you. Its not a trade you win.

 

Then kite them, they're slow, you're core engi iirc, you're not exactly made to be able to beat them at facetanking and bashing each in melee but you have plenty of other advantages.

 

Depending of course on your build, I also don't know how strong your build is overall obviously.

 

> >and ccing them,

>

> Nope. I am CC-ing them. Sadly, thats not a magical fix-all method. There is this concept called "stunbreak". It allows for the Revenant to break out of stuns, or other CC. They further have another tool called "stability", it prevents the next CC.

 

Well I guess you never actually played condi rev, the stunbreaks and stab sources are awful.

 

CC is highly effective against condi rev.

 

> >you could just be playing worse than they are, or your build might lack pressure.

>

> Nope, and nope. My build has plenty of pressure, but of course, its not a condi build, especially not condi rev, so it has less. Im playing as well as you can, but its just not winnable.

 

I doubt you're playing "as well as it's possible"

 

Cause it sounds like they're pressuring you more effectively than you pressure them.

 

> > > > I somehow don't struggle with sigil of cleansing being about 75% of my clears.

> > >

> > > Which simply means you arent facing condi builds. If you did, you would simply lose instantly because Sigil of Cleansing is about 15 condis cleansed too little.

> >

> > I fight them quite frequently, transfer heralds specifically are very common and people like to bust them out to try to kill you with true nature Demon alone. Not as often as power builds though.

> >

> > I of course like anyone every now and then have fights where condi dmg is the bulk of what kills me, but they're fairly rare.

> >

> > Both dmg types would have the possibility of killing enemies, so that I every now and then die to mostly condi is fairly natural. The fact remains that it's far less common than how often power is the bulk of the dmg I take.

> >

>

> You claim that, with Sigil of Cleansing, you totally dont struggle with them. That is impossible. If you are fighting them, relying on Cleansing Sigil, you should be dying instantly unless they are *terrible*. Given that, and given that you claim that, even with sigil of cleansing and toughness, you take less damage from power, despite the fact that accross my last couple weeks of roaming roughly 80% of roamers I encountered were condi, means that you are just not facing condi builds.

 

Well "terrible" is a matter of perspective I guess.

 

I am fairly certain you're lying or unable to realize that just cause you have 5 stacks of bleeding on you, odds are what put them there isn't a condi build, but a power build.

 

> > > @"Gorani.7205" said:

> > > My subjective observations (running a Marauder Tempest for roaming & small scale fights with allies)

> > > I encounter power based one shot builds a lot less and do a lot better vs. power based builds, especially Thieves.

> > > I see a lot more condi based professions around, especially Rev/Herald and Necros. The number of condis they can dump on you compared to my cleanses makes them winners in fights that drag out. Losing some punch by CC skills not having a decent damage component seems to be as much a factor as power having lost its big spike potential.

> > > I have to admit, I don't run Runes/Sigils that remove condis, but the fact that this is strongly advised at the moment should be an indication of some Condi "supremacy" over Power specs.

> >

> > So you shouldn't have to run any condi clears?

> >

> > Sigil of cleansing would be the strongest sigil even if condi dmg didn't exist, because immob exists (and the other debilitating conditions).

> >

> > Giving up a sigil is such an extremely tiny concession and cleansing does so much versus it, so tbh if you don't run cleansing and die to condi it's your own fault.

> >

> > Power is still dominant. Like it's always been (or at least it has the entire time I played, which is since slightly pre-HoT)

>

> Yes, power is so dominant almost no roamer uses power, and the few that do are still outclassed by condi builds. Its so dominant the best roamers are Condi Rev, Burn Weaver, Burn Guard and various versions of condi necro.

 

Lol, doubt it

[UNOwen.7132]

> @"lodjur.1284" said:

> > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > @"lodjur.1284" said:

> > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > > > @"lodjur.1284" said:

> > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > > > > > @"lodjur.1284" said:

> > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > > > > > > > @"lodjur.1284" said:

> > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @"Dawdler.8521" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > Condi Rev doesnt because they just want to do *even more damage*, and their survivability is fine even without defensive stats.

> > > > > > > > > > > And other classes? You know the classes that have long since realized they need the sustain to be viable fighting power builds?

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > The problem is, you know who else realised that? *Power builds*. Difference is, they cant go full damage while going full defense at the same time. And, well, their survivability is fine. Take condi thief, or even Condi Mirage. Their survivability would be the *exact same* as the equivalent power build, if they had the same defensive stats. They just get to take a bunch of free tankiness ontop of that.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Condi thief and mirage are indeed problematic, the armor stats aren't the problems though.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > It's the class design, even as condi they're highly mobile and bursty.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > The only solution I can see is to force their condi weapons into hybrid ones, to the point where they need to run Viper/Grieving to achieve respectable damage, or completely gutting their power variants.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Removing trailblazer/dire (and apothecary and shaman and so on) would drastically reduce build diversity and leave thief and mirage (and a few other fringe options) as the only viable condi options, as they don't "need" trailblazer the same way that a non-bursty melee build does.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Tanky, melee, non-bursty condi builds should definitively exist and they need trailblazer.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Also condi revenant most definitively runs trailblazer and the only problematic parts of the build is

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > True Nature - Demon has 600 radius and is unavoidable (ignores evade, block and blind) and has the potential to "1-shot".

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Infuse Light (dragon heal) is problematic as it's the kinda skill that really carries people, especially when already outnumbering.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > This is why condi herald is hard to kill, not runes of Tormenting or trailblazer.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > I wish Anet would implement something similar to ArcDPS dmg taken function in the core game so people could also see how rare it is that condition dmg is above 50% (or even above 30% for that matter).

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Actually, theyre not problematic, theyre both probably on the weaker side, I just used them as examples because they tend to use the same survivability as their power counterparts. Anyway, removing Trailblazer would keep the builds still viable. Even removing Dire would, you still have Rabid. Anyway, tanky condi builds are fine so long as they do the exact same level of damage as tanky power builds, instead of 3 or 4 times as much. They dont need Trailblazer, just like Prot Holo doesnt need Paladins, or even Demolishers.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > They definitively are, though imo not more than their power variants.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Their power variants also arent problematic. In case of Mesmer, less so.

> > > > >

> > > > > They are.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > Again, hardly. Power Mesmer and power thief both are burst builds that dont burst very well. Theyre not even very good.

> > >

> > > Problematic =/= good

> > >

> > > Both are very strong 1v1 too so eh.

> > >

> > > Ghost thief was never good, but it was definitively problematic.

> > >

> >

> > Theyre both not great in 1v1s. Power Mesmer might be slightly better if he gets the drop on you. But fair enough on the problematic.

> >

> > > > > > > Rabid is not even close to the third best condi statcombo. It's maybe 6th best, if even that.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Hardly. There are others good if you got a bunch of healing, but most condi builds dont really have much.

> > > > >

> > > > > It's always about incoming dps vs incoming hps on condi builds that care about toughness in the first place

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > The point of Toughness is just to reduce power damage. Most condi builds also have ways of dealing with condis themselves.

> > >

> > > Of course they do. Why wouldn't they?

> > >

> > > Even if there was no condi dmg at all, sigil of cleansing would still be the best sigil in the game just to clear immobilize/chill etc.

> > >

> >

> > Which ... has nothing to do with Toughness being great on condi builds?

>

> "Most condi builds also have ways of dealing with condis themselves."

>

 

Thats ... still missing the point?

 

> > > > > > > There's plenty of tanky power builds that push out those levels of dmg,

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Not really. Power builds are either tanky, or do that much damage. Not both.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > > Warrior in zerker+durability for example is tankier than most trailblaze/dire builds.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > Zerker Durability? Nah. But there is a Durability build that is about as tanky as Trailblazer/Dire builds. It also does a fraction of their damage.

> > > > >

> > > > > Durability runes have been the go to for a very long time for warrior (and basically every other remotely tanky power build I guess)

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > They have been, but if you go Zerker Durability, youre not even half as tanky as a tanky condi build.

> > >

> > > Between your various invulns/blocks/resistance etc, together with very high mobility, you very much are at least as tanky as a condi rev.

> > >

> >

> > Warrior can only shrug off one type of damage at a time, or he is blocking. Problem is, while youre blocking, youre not doing damage. And if you want to do the same level of damage, youre not nearly as tanky, so your heals are less effective.

>

> But according to you power is nonexistent so...

>

> Also you can activate 2 stances at once, shocker I know.

>

 

Power is rare, not non-existent. Yeah, they could use Berserker Stance. Sadly even that one is just pulsing Resistance, and that can be stripped or corrupted. It also doesnt last very long.

 

> > > > > > > Scrapper is tanky in some mix of Marauder+zerk+durability and definitively does respectable damage

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > This one is pretty tanky. But its damage is, once again, a fraction of an equivalent tanky condi build.

> > > > >

> > > > > No it isn't, scrapper can do good dmg

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > It can do *decent* damage. But not even *remotely* in the ballpark of a condi build. With condi builds, youre looking at up to 10k burst damage, and sustained DPS of like 5k+ per second. On Scrapper, youre looking at half that, at *best*. Usually less. There is no comparision, Scrapper does only a fraction of the condi builds damage.

> > >

> > > If a scrapper is only doing half of a condi rev in the same situation they're flat out playing bad, or have a very bad scrapper build. Probably both.

> > >

> > > 5k per second lmao, talk about hyperbole. Assuming you mean single target, cause on AoE or just depends on the number of targets, more so than the skills used.

> > >

> > > It's rare that I get incoming dmg of over 2. 5k/sec vs power or condi in 1v1s. This while playing a build with low avoidance uptime, so the numbers are fairly reasonable.

> > >

> >

> > Incorrect. Im starting to think you have never faced a condi rev if you seriously think *Scrapper* can do even remotely as much damage as they do. And given that you think 5k per second is hyperbole, rather than an *underestimation*, yeah you definitely havent. The build does 3k per second even through repeated cleanses, now imagine what happens if they dont have cleanse. No, Scrapper wont do even remotely as much damage. Theyre a great player, theyre playing the optimal scrapper build. Doesnt matter. They just dont have the damage, not even remotely.

>

> Flat out wrong, sorry. This is why people should have arcdps on...

>

 

It doesnt matter if you believe that its flat out wrong, fact is its not. Combat log suffices for testing that. Though, I asked someone who runs Scrapper to test it himself, even with your beloved arcdps. Exactly the same result (well, I say exactly, it was like 4.7k on the Condi rev). So yeah, even with your beloved arcdps, the fact doesnt change.

 

> > > > > > > There's a ton more tanky power builds with high dmg, but not gonna list all of them here.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > There are tanky builds that do a decent amount of damage. But accross all of them, you have the same issue. Theyre either less tanky, or do a fraction of the damage of the equivalent condi builds. Of course, Condi builds do have to contend with multiple condition cleanses, and they would *still* be superior.

> > > > >

> > > > > That's just incorrect. Warrior and scrapper for example are both very strong at the moment. Both are tanky power builds (that also have an extremely easy time dealing with condi).

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > Theyre decent builds. But that doesnt change the fact that they are either less tanky, or do *much* less damage, than condi builds. They have other strengths, utility and CC, but damage wise, its just such a huge gap.

> > >

> > > The dmg gap isn't massive. They're comparable, obviously some condi builds have a little bit more sustained dmg as they lack burst (and therefore should have more sustained dmg).

> > >

> >

> > Its objectively massive. Even through repeated cleanses with things like Firebrand, condi builds outdamage power builds. Now imagine there is no firebrand. Way bigger. They dont have "a little" more sustained damage, they have easily twice as much, if not more, sustained damage. Sadly, they also do *not* lack burst. If anything, they actually burst better right now. A burn Guard can easily burst for 11k on the first tick of burning, with the second tick killing. And that burst is *instant*. Power? No such luck.

>

> No they don't.

>

 

I dont know what to say here other than "yes, they do".

 

> I don't have a pocket firebrand, I don't struggle with condi...

>

 

Because you appear to almost never fight condi builds, or only fight ones that are extremely terrible. You claim that you totally do fine against condi builds while only being able to clear 4 conditions. Given that the minimum amount of conditions you need to be able to clear to have a decent chance is somewhere around 10-15, thats not believable.

 

> Burn guard has been mentioned, it definitively has too much burst. But this is also a ridiculous hyperbole, I haven't been ticked 11k burn ever I think, certainly not commonly and burnguards are common.

>

 

Its not hyperbole at all. Ive been hit harder than that. A lot harder. 11k is just the most recent one Ive been hit by.

 

> > > > > > > I am actually in favor of demolisher existing in WvW, it would definitively see a lot of use.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Right now? It wouldnt. Its basically Marauders, but significantly worse against the currently overperforming condi builds.

> > > > >

> > > > > It definitively would, warrior would run at least a number of it.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > Why would Warrior run it? There are hardly any Power builds around, and its a lot weaker against condi builds. There is legitimately *no* reason to drop Marauder for Demolishers.

> > >

> > > Warrior shouldn't run Marauder atm, it's terrible. They already have like 22k hp with durability runes in pure zerk.

> > >

> > > Demolisher would def be optimal to run a number of.

> > >

> >

> > Of course it should run Marauder, its great. Yes, they already have a lot of health. But more health is better. And the optimal number of Demolishers is 0. Its worse than Marauder by a ***wide*** margin in this condi meta. Youre basically obtaining a stat that does literally nothing against the strongest, and most prevalent damage type. While only being very slightly better against the weaker damage type. Why do you think not a single power build runs even a single piece of toughness armour? Even *Diviner* is being run.

>

> Because there's no good power+toughness stat combos in WvW.

>

 

Until the meta changes and Toughness on power builds becomes worth using, no power + toughness stat combo is "good".

 

> > > > > > > Paladin too, though I think it wouldn't be particularly used.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > It has a better chance, but probably not.

> > > > >

> > > > > No it doesn't.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > It does. It gives vitality, which is the best defensive stat right now. There is at least a case to be made over Marauders. There isnt for Demolishers.

> > >

> > > Vitality makes you die slower, it doesn't make you survive, after roughly the 20-25k mark it's fairly pointless on most builds, toughness shifts the incoming dps vs hps in your favor.

> > >

> >

> > Thats what surviving means. Its dying slower. And you would be (technically) right if power was prevalent and the stronger damage type. Its not, and its not. Against condi, instead of Vitality giving you 5000 extra EHP, Toughness gives you close to 0 EHP. In a meta where that damage type is far more powerful and prevalent, thats bad.

>

> Surviving =/= dying slower

>

> Necro dies slowly, yet lacks the ability to survive, since it's basically a hp pinata. See the difference?

>

 

Uh, are we just ignoring that Necro has heals and barrier? I guess we are. No, necro dies slowly and is great at surviving.

 

> Hyperbole and incorrect again.

>

 

Not hyperbole, and entirely correct Im afraid. Toughness against condi builds only reduces power damage, which is almost none of their damage. Hence it increases your EHP by basically 0. And Condi builds are far more powerful and prevalent, thats why 80+% of roamers you see are condi.

 

> > > > > > > As far as I am concerned we should just be able to "create" or own stat combinations following the current rules. (ie 4 stat gives 10% more than 3 stat, with 2 big and 2 small stats etc.)

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > That would certainly break condi even more. Until it gets a rework (Which it does need badly), we shouldnt do anything like that.

> > > > >

> > > > > As condi I almost have my perfect stat combinations though. The ones I could create with such a system would be marginal improvements.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > For power, there is no improvement at all. We pretty much have the most optimal combination, its sadly not a tanky one. We cant afford to play the tanky builds.

> > >

> > > Marauder but with big ferocity instead of precision (and small precision) would see a lot of use, especially in combination with Marauder to max out effective power.

> > >

> > > Marauder but with healing power instead of vit would see some use, it would be especially strong vs condi.

> > >

> > > Just 2 power stat combos of the top of my head, I am sure there's a lot more that would see some use.

> > >

> >

> > The first wouldnt, given that the builds that completely max out on precision already have better stats to go for. The latter also wouldnt. Avatar stats exist (swapping ferocity for healing power instead), and its completely unused. For regular power builds healing power just isnt good enough. For bunker builds, they have better options.

>

> Power reaper would use marauder with big fero and small preci in some numbers as max hp scales well with shroud.

>

> Avatar isn't even similar, it has no ferocity and is in sPvP a very different environment.

>

 

Oh, right, Avatar is PvP only. I couldve sworn it was a PvE prefix. And Power Reaper wouldnt, at least anymore. In a meta as dominated by condition builds and with as many condition cleanses as this one, well Decimate Defenses becomes rather ineffective. You cant rely on it anymore, so you need crit chance for the big ferocity payoff.

 

> > > > > > > > I mean, that would not say much given that it depends on who youre facing, how often, and so on. But I can tell you this, every time I look through my combat log after roaming around in WvW for a couple hours, its almost entirely condition damage.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > "Look through combat log"

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Use arcdps. The combat log is trash.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > The combat log perfectly represents the damage youve taken. Arcdps only makes it easier to read, but has issues with how it counts damage.

> > > > >

> > > > > It doesn't have any issues.

> > > > >

> > > > > > > I look through logs after every evening of smallscale WvW and also shortly after each fight. With an average group size of 3 (sometimes 2, rarely 4).

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I extremely rarely take more than 30% condi dmg. Much less 50%

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > If youre playing with a group, odds are you have AoE condi cleanses. Perhaps even once you dont notice.

> > > > >

> > > > > I actually would, because I know the build of everyone I play with.

> > > > >

> > > > > I know that a tempest isn't gonna throw me any clears, cause the only group clears it has is 1 clear on the shout heal and overload water, which is used very sparsely.

> > > > >

> > > > > I know that the other dps in my group doesn't actually have any AoE clears.

> > > > >

> > > > > Even so I can look at logs and conclude that I usually get about 1 clear/30 sec from others, hardly a massive amount.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > Water Overload clears 4 conditions. I also cant imagine they wouldnt be running the water traitline which adds some more clears. But, if what you say is true, then youre just extremely lucky with your enemies. Especially because if what you say is true, a single Condition Revenant should rip and tear through your entire team.

> > >

> > > Water doesn't actually give much clear of you take powerful aura. Especially if you also take soothing disruption, which the tempest in question does.

> > >

> > > As I said in most fights it averages out to 1 clear/25-35 sec.

> > >

> > > Overload water isn't exactly something you can spam when outnumbered since you will just get CCed get water on 20 sec cd and die.

> > >

> > > Also we just cc and kill the condi revs before they do.

> > >

> > > Condi rev is also weak to power so you shouldn't really struggle with them.

> > >

> >

> > Condi rev is not weak to power. At *all*. Also if youre outnumbering to the point where you can CC and kill the condi rev without him fighting back, sure. But then you can do the exact same thing with every single build in the game, and you should be taking absolutely 0 damage. And even then Im gonna have to doubt it, because just Invoke Torment + Embrace the Darkness would still be ticking and completely obliterate your team with your lack of cleanses ensuring your untimely demise.

>

> Well invoke torment is a whole 1 stack of torment

>

> EtD is 1 stack /sec, 3 if they can consistently use skills. Hardly anything that anyone with healing and reasonable clears would die to.

>

> It's also all 240 radius, just don't stand on it.

>

>

> Sigil of cleansing isn't lack of clears lmao.

>

 

1 stack of burning, poison and Torment instantly. Or that would be it. But then you also get Torment from Call of the Demon. Oh but then you also get 3 poison from Doom ontop of that. And probably another 2 stacks of torment from Sigil of Torment. Suddenly that turns from not that noticable to a major problem, doesnt it. And thats just one button. 240 is also a pretty big radius, and you want to CC them, remember? Yes, Sigil of Cleansing alone is a lack of clears in a meta where you need to be able to cleanse 10-15 conditions to survive.

 

> > > > > > > The times I do are:

> > > > > > > 1v1 with condi builds (lol)

> > > > > > > Eating a big transfer from transfer herald

> > > > > > > The time I get stuck in SoJ

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > My support essentially has no group clears (WET tempest with powerful aura and no trooper runes, usually does roughly 10% of my clears according to logs) and I mostly just have sigil of cleansing as my clears, so hardly overloading on anti-condi stuff.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > This is with permanent protection as well so I "should" be taking more condi dmg than power.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Then perhaps you just got extremely lucky. Its *very* rare for me to take more power than condi damage. Obviously, most roamers I meet are condi because its better, and they do more damage, because its better. And keep in mind, Im playing Core Engineer with Elixir C and its *still* not enough.

> > > > >

> > > > > I got extremely "lucky" in almost every fight, every evening since the patch across a multitude of various matchups.

> > > > >

> > > > > Sounds very likely.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > About as likely as being able to survive a condi rev with just Sigil of Cleansing. Which is to say, not possible. Ergo, you mustve been able to avoid Condi Revs entirely. Because if you actually faced one, you would get condi bombed, use Sigil of cleansing, get condi bombed *again* and die in 2 seconds. Given that, it means that if youre not taking that much condi damage, you just arent facing condi builds. Simple as that.

> > >

> > > Have you tried combining cleansing with dodging key skills, counterpressuring, stunning them etc?

> > >

> >

> > Yes? Do you think that works, though? Because their "key skills" are pulsing AoEs, instant AoEs and other undodgable things. If just CCing was enough to kill them, it would be enough to kill anyone. Counterpressuring would work if any attempt to pressure them doesnt also get me killed, and way faster than they are.

>

> Assuming you're talking about condi rev still.

>

> Pulsing AoEs can be moved out of.

>

> Mace 3 on rev is the key pressure skill they have, it is very telegraphed.

> CtA is also very telegraphed.

> Searing fissure too.

>

 

Not if you want to pressure them. Well, even then moving out is rather hard on a class that also happens to constantly chill you while youre severely lacking in condi clears. And sure, the others are reasonably telegraphed, but they come after youre already screwed.

 

> > > > > I wish I was fighting more condi then I could just equip one of the many extremely strong counters and take vastly less dmg than I do now.

> > > > >

> > > > > You do realize that clears aren't supposed to make you immune right, just delay your death. So that you can kill them before they kill you. Of you frequently struggle it's either a player error or your build should run more clears.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > Thats the theory. In actuality, the way it works out is that you try to delay your death 4 or 5 times, and then die anyway because even with an abundance of condi clears, the enemy build is both much tankier and does a metric crapton more damage than you do. To put it bluntly, my build cannot run any more condi clears. Its literally maxed out on them. Including several that clear the entire condi bomb. And guess what? Its *still* nowhere close enough.

> > >

> > > Then you're not pressuring them back

> >

> > Nope, I am. But even when pressuring them, they still kill you faster than you kill them. Any attempt to hit them makes them able to hit you. Its not a trade you win.

>

> Then kite them, they're slow, you're core engi iirc, you're not exactly made to be able to beat them at facetanking and bashing each in melee but you have plenty of other advantages.

>

> Depending of course on your build, I also don't know how strong your build is overall obviously.

>

 

Sadly, theyre not slow at all. Their build can access perma swiftness, has a number of dashes, and applies chill from afar with ease. They will catch up to you. Kiting is a nice idea, but a complete non-starter.

 

> > >and ccing them,

> >

> > Nope. I am CC-ing them. Sadly, thats not a magical fix-all method. There is this concept called "stunbreak". It allows for the Revenant to break out of stuns, or other CC. They further have another tool called "stability", it prevents the next CC.

>

> Well I guess you never actually played condi rev, the stunbreaks and stab sources are awful.

>

> CC is highly effective against condi rev.

>

 

Clearly you havent. They have 2 stunbreaks and up to 2 sources of stability. Thats actually not that little. I dont know about your build, but mine doesnt have 4 sources of hard CC back to back to back. Ive got 2 and thats already on the higher end. I could get 3, but even that isnt enough.

 

> > >you could just be playing worse than they are, or your build might lack pressure.

> >

> > Nope, and nope. My build has plenty of pressure, but of course, its not a condi build, especially not condi rev, so it has less. Im playing as well as you can, but its just not winnable.

>

> I doubt you're playing "as well as it's possible"

>

> Cause it sounds like they're pressuring you more effectively than you pressure them.

>

 

Yes. That doesnt preclude playing as well as possible. Of course they pressure me more effectively. They do several times my damage and have several times my survivability. It would be rather incredibly if despite those handicaps I could somehow outpressure them. But its not possible. Not without them sucking.

 

> > > > > I somehow don't struggle with sigil of cleansing being about 75% of my clears.

> > > >

> > > > Which simply means you arent facing condi builds. If you did, you would simply lose instantly because Sigil of Cleansing is about 15 condis cleansed too little.

> > >

> > > I fight them quite frequently, transfer heralds specifically are very common and people like to bust them out to try to kill you with true nature Demon alone. Not as often as power builds though.

> > >

> > > I of course like anyone every now and then have fights where condi dmg is the bulk of what kills me, but they're fairly rare.

> > >

> > > Both dmg types would have the possibility of killing enemies, so that I every now and then die to mostly condi is fairly natural. The fact remains that it's far less common than how often power is the bulk of the dmg I take.

> > >

> >

> > You claim that, with Sigil of Cleansing, you totally dont struggle with them. That is impossible. If you are fighting them, relying on Cleansing Sigil, you should be dying instantly unless they are *terrible*. Given that, and given that you claim that, even with sigil of cleansing and toughness, you take less damage from power, despite the fact that accross my last couple weeks of roaming roughly 80% of roamers I encountered were condi, means that you are just not facing condi builds.

>

> Well "terrible" is a matter of perspective I guess.

>

 

I dont know what perspective you could have where "failing to destroy someone who has about 10 cleanses too little to survive your damage" is anything but terrible.

 

> I am fairly certain you're lying or unable to realize that just cause you have 5 stacks of bleeding on you, odds are what put them there isn't a condi build, but a power build.

>

 

Yes, that invisible power build that can apply 5 stacks of bleeding while being so invisible, it doesnt even show up in the combat log. Yeah, no. See, here is what happens. They condi bomb me. I cleanse. They condi bomb me again. I cleanse again. They condi bomb me a third time. I cleanse a third time. Now Im out of condi cleanses, they bomb me *again* and Im dead. Against you what should happen is they condi bomb you, you cleanse, they condi bomb you again and you already die.

 

> > > > @"Gorani.7205" said:

> > > > My subjective observations (running a Marauder Tempest for roaming & small scale fights with allies)

> > > > I encounter power based one shot builds a lot less and do a lot better vs. power based builds, especially Thieves.

> > > > I see a lot more condi based professions around, especially Rev/Herald and Necros. The number of condis they can dump on you compared to my cleanses makes them winners in fights that drag out. Losing some punch by CC skills not having a decent damage component seems to be as much a factor as power having lost its big spike potential.

> > > > I have to admit, I don't run Runes/Sigils that remove condis, but the fact that this is strongly advised at the moment should be an indication of some Condi "supremacy" over Power specs.

> > >

> > > So you shouldn't have to run any condi clears?

> > >

> > > Sigil of cleansing would be the strongest sigil even if condi dmg didn't exist, because immob exists (and the other debilitating conditions).

> > >

> > > Giving up a sigil is such an extremely tiny concession and cleansing does so much versus it, so tbh if you don't run cleansing and die to condi it's your own fault.

> > >

> > > Power is still dominant. Like it's always been (or at least it has the entire time I played, which is since slightly pre-HoT)

> >

> > Yes, power is so dominant almost no roamer uses power, and the few that do are still outclassed by condi builds. Its so dominant the best roamers are Condi Rev, Burn Weaver, Burn Guard and various versions of condi necro.

>

> Lol, doubt it

 

Doubt what, the easily observed fact that condi is far more prevalent?

[lodjur.1284]

> @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > @"lodjur.1284" said:

> > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > > @"lodjur.1284" said:

> > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > > > > @"lodjur.1284" said:

> > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > > > > > > @"lodjur.1284" said:

> > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > > > > > > > > @"lodjur.1284" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > @"Dawdler.8521" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > Condi Rev doesnt because they just want to do *even more damage*, and their survivability is fine even without defensive stats.

> > > > > > > > > > > > And other classes? You know the classes that have long since realized they need the sustain to be viable fighting power builds?

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > The problem is, you know who else realised that? *Power builds*. Difference is, they cant go full damage while going full defense at the same time. And, well, their survivability is fine. Take condi thief, or even Condi Mirage. Their survivability would be the *exact same* as the equivalent power build, if they had the same defensive stats. They just get to take a bunch of free tankiness ontop of that.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Condi thief and mirage are indeed problematic, the armor stats aren't the problems though.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > It's the class design, even as condi they're highly mobile and bursty.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > The only solution I can see is to force their condi weapons into hybrid ones, to the point where they need to run Viper/Grieving to achieve respectable damage, or completely gutting their power variants.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Removing trailblazer/dire (and apothecary and shaman and so on) would drastically reduce build diversity and leave thief and mirage (and a few other fringe options) as the only viable condi options, as they don't "need" trailblazer the same way that a non-bursty melee build does.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Tanky, melee, non-bursty condi builds should definitively exist and they need trailblazer.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Also condi revenant most definitively runs trailblazer and the only problematic parts of the build is

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > True Nature - Demon has 600 radius and is unavoidable (ignores evade, block and blind) and has the potential to "1-shot".

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Infuse Light (dragon heal) is problematic as it's the kinda skill that really carries people, especially when already outnumbering.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > This is why condi herald is hard to kill, not runes of Tormenting or trailblazer.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > I wish Anet would implement something similar to ArcDPS dmg taken function in the core game so people could also see how rare it is that condition dmg is above 50% (or even above 30% for that matter).

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Actually, theyre not problematic, theyre both probably on the weaker side, I just used them as examples because they tend to use the same survivability as their power counterparts. Anyway, removing Trailblazer would keep the builds still viable. Even removing Dire would, you still have Rabid. Anyway, tanky condi builds are fine so long as they do the exact same level of damage as tanky power builds, instead of 3 or 4 times as much. They dont need Trailblazer, just like Prot Holo doesnt need Paladins, or even Demolishers.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > They definitively are, though imo not more than their power variants.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Their power variants also arent problematic. In case of Mesmer, less so.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > They are.

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Again, hardly. Power Mesmer and power thief both are burst builds that dont burst very well. Theyre not even very good.

> > > >

> > > > Problematic =/= good

> > > >

> > > > Both are very strong 1v1 too so eh.

> > > >

> > > > Ghost thief was never good, but it was definitively problematic.

> > > >

> > >

> > > Theyre both not great in 1v1s. Power Mesmer might be slightly better if he gets the drop on you. But fair enough on the problematic.

> > >

> > > > > > > > Rabid is not even close to the third best condi statcombo. It's maybe 6th best, if even that.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Hardly. There are others good if you got a bunch of healing, but most condi builds dont really have much.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > It's always about incoming dps vs incoming hps on condi builds that care about toughness in the first place

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > The point of Toughness is just to reduce power damage. Most condi builds also have ways of dealing with condis themselves.

> > > >

> > > > Of course they do. Why wouldn't they?

> > > >

> > > > Even if there was no condi dmg at all, sigil of cleansing would still be the best sigil in the game just to clear immobilize/chill etc.

> > > >

> > >

> > > Which ... has nothing to do with Toughness being great on condi builds?

> >

> > "Most condi builds also have ways of dealing with condis themselves."

> >

>

> Thats ... still missing the point?

 

Why did you say it then?

 

> > > > > > > > There's plenty of tanky power builds that push out those levels of dmg,

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Not really. Power builds are either tanky, or do that much damage. Not both.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Warrior in zerker+durability for example is tankier than most trailblaze/dire builds.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Zerker Durability? Nah. But there is a Durability build that is about as tanky as Trailblazer/Dire builds. It also does a fraction of their damage.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Durability runes have been the go to for a very long time for warrior (and basically every other remotely tanky power build I guess)

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > They have been, but if you go Zerker Durability, youre not even half as tanky as a tanky condi build.

> > > >

> > > > Between your various invulns/blocks/resistance etc, together with very high mobility, you very much are at least as tanky as a condi rev.

> > > >

> > >

> > > Warrior can only shrug off one type of damage at a time, or he is blocking. Problem is, while youre blocking, youre not doing damage. And if you want to do the same level of damage, youre not nearly as tanky, so your heals are less effective.

> >

> > But according to you power is nonexistent so...

> >

> > Also you can activate 2 stances at once, shocker I know.

> >

>

> Power is rare, not non-existent. Yeah, they could use Berserker Stance. Sadly even that one is just pulsing Resistance, and that can be stripped or corrupted. It also doesnt last very long.

 

You can't strip pulsing resistamce really. Berserker stance is very good.

 

> > > > > > > > Scrapper is tanky in some mix of Marauder+zerk+durability and definitively does respectable damage

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > This one is pretty tanky. But its damage is, once again, a fraction of an equivalent tanky condi build.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > No it isn't, scrapper can do good dmg

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > It can do *decent* damage. But not even *remotely* in the ballpark of a condi build. With condi builds, youre looking at up to 10k burst damage, and sustained DPS of like 5k+ per second. On Scrapper, youre looking at half that, at *best*. Usually less. There is no comparision, Scrapper does only a fraction of the condi builds damage.

> > > >

> > > > If a scrapper is only doing half of a condi rev in the same situation they're flat out playing bad, or have a very bad scrapper build. Probably both.

> > > >

> > > > 5k per second lmao, talk about hyperbole. Assuming you mean single target, cause on AoE or just depends on the number of targets, more so than the skills used.

> > > >

> > > > It's rare that I get incoming dmg of over 2. 5k/sec vs power or condi in 1v1s. This while playing a build with low avoidance uptime, so the numbers are fairly reasonable.

> > > >

> > >

> > > Incorrect. Im starting to think you have never faced a condi rev if you seriously think *Scrapper* can do even remotely as much damage as they do. And given that you think 5k per second is hyperbole, rather than an *underestimation*, yeah you definitely havent. The build does 3k per second even through repeated cleanses, now imagine what happens if they dont have cleanse. No, Scrapper wont do even remotely as much damage. Theyre a great player, theyre playing the optimal scrapper build. Doesnt matter. They just dont have the damage, not even remotely.

> >

> > Flat out wrong, sorry. This is why people should have arcdps on...

> >

>

> It doesnt matter if you believe that its flat out wrong, fact is its not. Combat log suffices for testing that. Though, I asked someone who runs Scrapper to test it himself, even with your beloved arcdps. Exactly the same result (well, I say exactly, it was like 4.7k on the Condi rev). So yeah, even with your beloved arcdps, the fact doesnt change.

 

To test their dmg vs a roughly equally good condi rev in the same group.

 

> > > > > > > > There's a ton more tanky power builds with high dmg, but not gonna list all of them here.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > There are tanky builds that do a decent amount of damage. But accross all of them, you have the same issue. Theyre either less tanky, or do a fraction of the damage of the equivalent condi builds. Of course, Condi builds do have to contend with multiple condition cleanses, and they would *still* be superior.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > That's just incorrect. Warrior and scrapper for example are both very strong at the moment. Both are tanky power builds (that also have an extremely easy time dealing with condi).

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Theyre decent builds. But that doesnt change the fact that they are either less tanky, or do *much* less damage, than condi builds. They have other strengths, utility and CC, but damage wise, its just such a huge gap.

> > > >

> > > > The dmg gap isn't massive. They're comparable, obviously some condi builds have a little bit more sustained dmg as they lack burst (and therefore should have more sustained dmg).

> > > >

> > >

> > > Its objectively massive. Even through repeated cleanses with things like Firebrand, condi builds outdamage power builds. Now imagine there is no firebrand. Way bigger. They dont have "a little" more sustained damage, they have easily twice as much, if not more, sustained damage. Sadly, they also do *not* lack burst. If anything, they actually burst better right now. A burn Guard can easily burst for 11k on the first tick of burning, with the second tick killing. And that burst is *instant*. Power? No such luck.

> >

> > No they don't.

> >

>

> I dont know what to say here other than "yes, they do".

>

> > I don't have a pocket firebrand, I don't struggle with condi...

> >

>

> Because you appear to almost never fight condi builds, or only fight ones that are extremely terrible. You claim that you totally do fine against condi builds while only being able to clear 4 conditions. Given that the minimum amount of conditions you need to be able to clear to have a decent chance is somewhere around 10-15, thats not believable.

 

I fight a normal amount of condi builds.

 

4 condis every 10 sec, I guess I also have 5 cleared on heal every 30 sec, but don't really need it that much.

 

> > Burn guard has been mentioned, it definitively has too much burst. But this is also a ridiculous hyperbole, I haven't been ticked 11k burn ever I think, certainly not commonly and burnguards are common.

> >

>

> Its not hyperbole at all. Ive been hit harder than that. A lot harder. 11k is just the most recent one Ive been hit by.

 

Sounds like you need to avoid their hits more.

 

> > > > > > > > I am actually in favor of demolisher existing in WvW, it would definitively see a lot of use.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Right now? It wouldnt. Its basically Marauders, but significantly worse against the currently overperforming condi builds.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > It definitively would, warrior would run at least a number of it.

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Why would Warrior run it? There are hardly any Power builds around, and its a lot weaker against condi builds. There is legitimately *no* reason to drop Marauder for Demolishers.

> > > >

> > > > Warrior shouldn't run Marauder atm, it's terrible. They already have like 22k hp with durability runes in pure zerk.

> > > >

> > > > Demolisher would def be optimal to run a number of.

> > > >

> > >

> > > Of course it should run Marauder, its great. Yes, they already have a lot of health. But more health is better. And the optimal number of Demolishers is 0. Its worse than Marauder by a ***wide*** margin in this condi meta. Youre basically obtaining a stat that does literally nothing against the strongest, and most prevalent damage type. While only being very slightly better against the weaker damage type. Why do you think not a single power build runs even a single piece of toughness armour? Even *Diviner* is being run.

> >

> > Because there's no good power+toughness stat combos in WvW.

> >

>

> Until the meta changes and Toughness on power builds becomes worth using, no power + toughness stat combo is "good".

 

Well no matter the meta there simply is no good one. Demolisher doesn't exist in WvW. Cavalier sucks, knight sucks etc.

 

> > > > > > > > Paladin too, though I think it wouldn't be particularly used.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > It has a better chance, but probably not.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > No it doesn't.

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > It does. It gives vitality, which is the best defensive stat right now. There is at least a case to be made over Marauders. There isnt for Demolishers.

> > > >

> > > > Vitality makes you die slower, it doesn't make you survive, after roughly the 20-25k mark it's fairly pointless on most builds, toughness shifts the incoming dps vs hps in your favor.

> > > >

> > >

> > > Thats what surviving means. Its dying slower. And you would be (technically) right if power was prevalent and the stronger damage type. Its not, and its not. Against condi, instead of Vitality giving you 5000 extra EHP, Toughness gives you close to 0 EHP. In a meta where that damage type is far more powerful and prevalent, thats bad.

> >

> > Surviving =/= dying slower

> >

> > Necro dies slowly, yet lacks the ability to survive, since it's basically a hp pinata. See the difference?

> >

>

> Uh, are we just ignoring that Necro has heals and barrier? I guess we are. No, necro dies slowly and is great at surviving.

 

Scourge has barrier.

 

Necro can be unkillable 1v1 atm but just dies slowly in group fights when focused.

 

> > Hyperbole and incorrect again.

> >

>

> Not hyperbole, and entirely correct Im afraid. Toughness against condi builds only reduces power damage, which is almost none of their damage. Hence it increases your EHP by basically 0. And Condi builds are far more powerful and prevalent, thats why 80+% of roamers you see are condi.

 

But if toughness is useless... Shouldn't condi builds run plaguedoctor instead....

 

> > > > > > > > As far as I am concerned we should just be able to "create" or own stat combinations following the current rules. (ie 4 stat gives 10% more than 3 stat, with 2 big and 2 small stats etc.)

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > That would certainly break condi even more. Until it gets a rework (Which it does need badly), we shouldnt do anything like that.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > As condi I almost have my perfect stat combinations though. The ones I could create with such a system would be marginal improvements.

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > For power, there is no improvement at all. We pretty much have the most optimal combination, its sadly not a tanky one. We cant afford to play the tanky builds.

> > > >

> > > > Marauder but with big ferocity instead of precision (and small precision) would see a lot of use, especially in combination with Marauder to max out effective power.

> > > >

> > > > Marauder but with healing power instead of vit would see some use, it would be especially strong vs condi.

> > > >

> > > > Just 2 power stat combos of the top of my head, I am sure there's a lot more that would see some use.

> > > >

> > >

> > > The first wouldnt, given that the builds that completely max out on precision already have better stats to go for. The latter also wouldnt. Avatar stats exist (swapping ferocity for healing power instead), and its completely unused. For regular power builds healing power just isnt good enough. For bunker builds, they have better options.

> >

> > Power reaper would use marauder with big fero and small preci in some numbers as max hp scales well with shroud.

> >

> > Avatar isn't even similar, it has no ferocity and is in sPvP a very different environment.

> >

>

> Oh, right, Avatar is PvP only. I couldve sworn it was a PvE prefix. And Power Reaper wouldnt, at least anymore. In a meta as dominated by condition builds and with as many condition cleanses as this one, well Decimate Defenses becomes rather ineffective. You cant rely on it anymore, so you need crit chance for the big ferocity payoff.

 

You still get 33% from death perception. Decimate was never good tbh.

 

One would have to do the math to see if it gives more effective power than marauder and at what point, probably depends on if you can reliably get fury, but I am too lazy to do the math on that.

 

> > > > > > > > > I mean, that would not say much given that it depends on who youre facing, how often, and so on. But I can tell you this, every time I look through my combat log after roaming around in WvW for a couple hours, its almost entirely condition damage.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > "Look through combat log"

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Use arcdps. The combat log is trash.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > The combat log perfectly represents the damage youve taken. Arcdps only makes it easier to read, but has issues with how it counts damage.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > It doesn't have any issues.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > > > I look through logs after every evening of smallscale WvW and also shortly after each fight. With an average group size of 3 (sometimes 2, rarely 4).

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > I extremely rarely take more than 30% condi dmg. Much less 50%

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > If youre playing with a group, odds are you have AoE condi cleanses. Perhaps even once you dont notice.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I actually would, because I know the build of everyone I play with.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I know that a tempest isn't gonna throw me any clears, cause the only group clears it has is 1 clear on the shout heal and overload water, which is used very sparsely.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I know that the other dps in my group doesn't actually have any AoE clears.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Even so I can look at logs and conclude that I usually get about 1 clear/30 sec from others, hardly a massive amount.

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Water Overload clears 4 conditions. I also cant imagine they wouldnt be running the water traitline which adds some more clears. But, if what you say is true, then youre just extremely lucky with your enemies. Especially because if what you say is true, a single Condition Revenant should rip and tear through your entire team.

> > > >

> > > > Water doesn't actually give much clear of you take powerful aura. Especially if you also take soothing disruption, which the tempest in question does.

> > > >

> > > > As I said in most fights it averages out to 1 clear/25-35 sec.

> > > >

> > > > Overload water isn't exactly something you can spam when outnumbered since you will just get CCed get water on 20 sec cd and die.

> > > >

> > > > Also we just cc and kill the condi revs before they do.

> > > >

> > > > Condi rev is also weak to power so you shouldn't really struggle with them.

> > > >

> > >

> > > Condi rev is not weak to power. At *all*. Also if youre outnumbering to the point where you can CC and kill the condi rev without him fighting back, sure. But then you can do the exact same thing with every single build in the game, and you should be taking absolutely 0 damage. And even then Im gonna have to doubt it, because just Invoke Torment + Embrace the Darkness would still be ticking and completely obliterate your team with your lack of cleanses ensuring your untimely demise.

> >

> > Well invoke torment is a whole 1 stack of torment

> >

> > EtD is 1 stack /sec, 3 if they can consistently use skills. Hardly anything that anyone with healing and reasonable clears would die to.

> >

> > It's also all 240 radius, just don't stand on it.

> >

> >

> > Sigil of cleansing isn't lack of clears lmao.

> >

>

> 1 stack of burning, poison and Torment instantly. Or that would be it. But then you also get Torment from Call of the Demon. Oh but then you also get 3 poison from Doom ontop of that. And probably another 2 stacks of torment from Sigil of Torment. Suddenly that turns from not that noticable to a major problem, doesnt it. And thats just one button. 240 is also a pretty big radius, and you want to CC them, remember? Yes, Sigil of Cleansing alone is a lack of clears in a meta where you need to be able to cleanse 10-15 conditions to survive.

 

Olay so they run doom+torment and no permeating pestilence.

 

So they have no clears at all in their build except for true nature Demon, that sounds like a bad rev build.

 

The little resistance from Demon is def not enough to not just get immobilized to death in every fight for them.

 

Also 240 is tiny, invoke torment also has an animation.

 

> > > > > > > > The times I do are:

> > > > > > > > 1v1 with condi builds (lol)

> > > > > > > > Eating a big transfer from transfer herald

> > > > > > > > The time I get stuck in SoJ

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > My support essentially has no group clears (WET tempest with powerful aura and no trooper runes, usually does roughly 10% of my clears according to logs) and I mostly just have sigil of cleansing as my clears, so hardly overloading on anti-condi stuff.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > This is with permanent protection as well so I "should" be taking more condi dmg than power.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Then perhaps you just got extremely lucky. Its *very* rare for me to take more power than condi damage. Obviously, most roamers I meet are condi because its better, and they do more damage, because its better. And keep in mind, Im playing Core Engineer with Elixir C and its *still* not enough.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I got extremely "lucky" in almost every fight, every evening since the patch across a multitude of various matchups.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Sounds very likely.

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > About as likely as being able to survive a condi rev with just Sigil of Cleansing. Which is to say, not possible. Ergo, you mustve been able to avoid Condi Revs entirely. Because if you actually faced one, you would get condi bombed, use Sigil of cleansing, get condi bombed *again* and die in 2 seconds. Given that, it means that if youre not taking that much condi damage, you just arent facing condi builds. Simple as that.

> > > >

> > > > Have you tried combining cleansing with dodging key skills, counterpressuring, stunning them etc?

> > > >

> > >

> > > Yes? Do you think that works, though? Because their "key skills" are pulsing AoEs, instant AoEs and other undodgable things. If just CCing was enough to kill them, it would be enough to kill anyone. Counterpressuring would work if any attempt to pressure them doesnt also get me killed, and way faster than they are.

> >

> > Assuming you're talking about condi rev still.

> >

> > Pulsing AoEs can be moved out of.

> >

> > Mace 3 on rev is the key pressure skill they have, it is very telegraphed.

> > CtA is also very telegraphed.

> > Searing fissure too.

> >

>

> Not if you want to pressure them. Well, even then moving out is rather hard on a class that also happens to constantly chill you while youre severely lacking in condi clears. And sure, the others are reasonably telegraphed, but they come after youre already screwed.

 

So they're somehow constantly chilling you while keeping EtD up, that's not possible energywise, if try to do it dodge and laugh at them as they're out of energy.

 

> > > > > > I wish I was fighting more condi then I could just equip one of the many extremely strong counters and take vastly less dmg than I do now.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > You do realize that clears aren't supposed to make you immune right, just delay your death. So that you can kill them before they kill you. Of you frequently struggle it's either a player error or your build should run more clears.

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Thats the theory. In actuality, the way it works out is that you try to delay your death 4 or 5 times, and then die anyway because even with an abundance of condi clears, the enemy build is both much tankier and does a metric crapton more damage than you do. To put it bluntly, my build cannot run any more condi clears. Its literally maxed out on them. Including several that clear the entire condi bomb. And guess what? Its *still* nowhere close enough.

> > > >

> > > > Then you're not pressuring them back

> > >

> > > Nope, I am. But even when pressuring them, they still kill you faster than you kill them. Any attempt to hit them makes them able to hit you. Its not a trade you win.

> >

> > Then kite them, they're slow, you're core engi iirc, you're not exactly made to be able to beat them at facetanking and bashing each in melee but you have plenty of other advantages.

> >

> > Depending of course on your build, I also don't know how strong your build is overall obviously.

> >

>

> Sadly, theyre not slow at all. Their build can access perma swiftness, has a number of dashes, and applies chill from afar with ease. They will catch up to you. Kiting is a nice idea, but a complete non-starter.

 

No. They're very slow compared to most builds that would need to kite them.

 

> > > >and ccing them,

> > >

> > > Nope. I am CC-ing them. Sadly, thats not a magical fix-all method. There is this concept called "stunbreak". It allows for the Revenant to break out of stuns, or other CC. They further have another tool called "stability", it prevents the next CC.

> >

> > Well I guess you never actually played condi rev, the stunbreaks and stab sources are awful.

> >

> > CC is highly effective against condi rev.

> >

>

> Clearly you havent. They have 2 stunbreaks and up to 2 sources of stability. Thats actually not that little. I dont know about your build, but mine doesnt have 4 sources of hard CC back to back to back. Ive got 2 and thats already on the higher end. I could get 3, but even that isnt enough.

 

Let's assume herald dragon+Demon

 

Their source of stab is only on stunbreak (if they even run it)

 

Demon stunbreak is atrociously bad

 

Dragon has one on a long cd.

 

> > > >you could just be playing worse than they are, or your build might lack pressure.

> > >

> > > Nope, and nope. My build has plenty of pressure, but of course, its not a condi build, especially not condi rev, so it has less. Im playing as well as you can, but its just not winnable.

> >

> > I doubt you're playing "as well as it's possible"

> >

> > Cause it sounds like they're pressuring you more effectively than you pressure them.

> >

>

> Yes. That doesnt preclude playing as well as possible. Of course they pressure me more effectively. They do several times my damage and have several times my survivability. It would be rather incredibly if despite those handicaps I could somehow outpressure them. But its not possible. Not without them sucking.

 

You're not tho, there is not a single player who plays "as well as possible"

 

Could also be your build just being weak.

 

> > > > > > I somehow don't struggle with sigil of cleansing being about 75% of my clears.

> > > > >

> > > > > Which simply means you arent facing condi builds. If you did, you would simply lose instantly because Sigil of Cleansing is about 15 condis cleansed too little.

> > > >

> > > > I fight them quite frequently, transfer heralds specifically are very common and people like to bust them out to try to kill you with true nature Demon alone. Not as often as power builds though.

> > > >

> > > > I of course like anyone every now and then have fights where condi dmg is the bulk of what kills me, but they're fairly rare.

> > > >

> > > > Both dmg types would have the possibility of killing enemies, so that I every now and then die to mostly condi is fairly natural. The fact remains that it's far less common than how often power is the bulk of the dmg I take.

> > > >

> > >

> > > You claim that, with Sigil of Cleansing, you totally dont struggle with them. That is impossible. If you are fighting them, relying on Cleansing Sigil, you should be dying instantly unless they are *terrible*. Given that, and given that you claim that, even with sigil of cleansing and toughness, you take less damage from power, despite the fact that accross my last couple weeks of roaming roughly 80% of roamers I encountered were condi, means that you are just not facing condi builds.

> >

> > Well "terrible" is a matter of perspective I guess.

> >

>

> I dont know what perspective you could have where "failing to destroy someone who has about 10 cleanses too little to survive your damage" is anything but terrible.

 

Could also have to do with how one uses their clears you know, and how much of the condis you just facetank for no reason.

 

> > I am fairly certain you're lying or unable to realize that just cause you have 5 stacks of bleeding on you, odds are what put them there isn't a condi build, but a power build.

> >

>

> Yes, that invisible power build that can apply 5 stacks of bleeding while being so invisible, it doesnt even show up in the combat log. Yeah, no. See, here is what happens. They condi bomb me. I cleanse. They condi bomb me again. I cleanse again. They condi bomb me a third time. I cleanse a third time. Now Im out of condi cleanses, they bomb me *again* and Im dead. Against you what should happen is they condi bomb you, you cleanse, they condi bomb you again and you already die.

 

So you stand in their AoEs? Dodge/block etc still works vs condi.

 

> > > > > @"Gorani.7205" said:

> > > > > My subjective observations (running a Marauder Tempest for roaming & small scale fights with allies)

> > > > > I encounter power based one shot builds a lot less and do a lot better vs. power based builds, especially Thieves.

> > > > > I see a lot more condi based professions around, especially Rev/Herald and Necros. The number of condis they can dump on you compared to my cleanses makes them winners in fights that drag out. Losing some punch by CC skills not having a decent damage component seems to be as much a factor as power having lost its big spike potential.

> > > > > I have to admit, I don't run Runes/Sigils that remove condis, but the fact that this is strongly advised at the moment should be an indication of some Condi "supremacy" over Power specs.

> > > >

> > > > So you shouldn't have to run any condi clears?

> > > >

> > > > Sigil of cleansing would be the strongest sigil even if condi dmg didn't exist, because immob exists (and the other debilitating conditions).

> > > >

> > > > Giving up a sigil is such an extremely tiny concession and cleansing does so much versus it, so tbh if you don't run cleansing and die to condi it's your own fault.

> > > >

> > > > Power is still dominant. Like it's always been (or at least it has the entire time I played, which is since slightly pre-HoT)

> > >

> > > Yes, power is so dominant almost no roamer uses power, and the few that do are still outclassed by condi builds. Its so dominant the best roamers are Condi Rev, Burn Weaver, Burn Guard and various versions of condi necro.

> >

> > Lol, doubt it

>

> Doubt what, the easily observed fact that condi is far more prevalent?

 

Well given that I've observed the opposite.

[pninak.1069]

the idea that when you get attacked by a condi build with 1 skill you just die is absolutly false. condi has a long ramp up time and the condis on its own don't really do much dmg. you are far faster by bursting down the player. you forgot that they pretty much keep reducing stacks and changing it to a longer duration instead. so the overall cap you can reach with condi is far lower and also less bursty.

[UNOwen.7132]

> @"lodjur.1284" said:

> > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > @"lodjur.1284" said:

> > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > > > @"lodjur.1284" said:

> > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > > > > > @"lodjur.1284" said:

> > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > > > > > > > @"lodjur.1284" said:

> > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @"lodjur.1284" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Dawdler.8521" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Condi Rev doesnt because they just want to do *even more damage*, and their survivability is fine even without defensive stats.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > And other classes? You know the classes that have long since realized they need the sustain to be viable fighting power builds?

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > The problem is, you know who else realised that? *Power builds*. Difference is, they cant go full damage while going full defense at the same time. And, well, their survivability is fine. Take condi thief, or even Condi Mirage. Their survivability would be the *exact same* as the equivalent power build, if they had the same defensive stats. They just get to take a bunch of free tankiness ontop of that.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Condi thief and mirage are indeed problematic, the armor stats aren't the problems though.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > It's the class design, even as condi they're highly mobile and bursty.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > The only solution I can see is to force their condi weapons into hybrid ones, to the point where they need to run Viper/Grieving to achieve respectable damage, or completely gutting their power variants.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Removing trailblazer/dire (and apothecary and shaman and so on) would drastically reduce build diversity and leave thief and mirage (and a few other fringe options) as the only viable condi options, as they don't "need" trailblazer the same way that a non-bursty melee build does.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Tanky, melee, non-bursty condi builds should definitively exist and they need trailblazer.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Also condi revenant most definitively runs trailblazer and the only problematic parts of the build is

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > True Nature - Demon has 600 radius and is unavoidable (ignores evade, block and blind) and has the potential to "1-shot".

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Infuse Light (dragon heal) is problematic as it's the kinda skill that really carries people, especially when already outnumbering.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > This is why condi herald is hard to kill, not runes of Tormenting or trailblazer.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > I wish Anet would implement something similar to ArcDPS dmg taken function in the core game so people could also see how rare it is that condition dmg is above 50% (or even above 30% for that matter).

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Actually, theyre not problematic, theyre both probably on the weaker side, I just used them as examples because they tend to use the same survivability as their power counterparts. Anyway, removing Trailblazer would keep the builds still viable. Even removing Dire would, you still have Rabid. Anyway, tanky condi builds are fine so long as they do the exact same level of damage as tanky power builds, instead of 3 or 4 times as much. They dont need Trailblazer, just like Prot Holo doesnt need Paladins, or even Demolishers.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > They definitively are, though imo not more than their power variants.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Their power variants also arent problematic. In case of Mesmer, less so.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > They are.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Again, hardly. Power Mesmer and power thief both are burst builds that dont burst very well. Theyre not even very good.

> > > > >

> > > > > Problematic =/= good

> > > > >

> > > > > Both are very strong 1v1 too so eh.

> > > > >

> > > > > Ghost thief was never good, but it was definitively problematic.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > Theyre both not great in 1v1s. Power Mesmer might be slightly better if he gets the drop on you. But fair enough on the problematic.

> > > >

> > > > > > > > > Rabid is not even close to the third best condi statcombo. It's maybe 6th best, if even that.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Hardly. There are others good if you got a bunch of healing, but most condi builds dont really have much.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > It's always about incoming dps vs incoming hps on condi builds that care about toughness in the first place

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > The point of Toughness is just to reduce power damage. Most condi builds also have ways of dealing with condis themselves.

> > > > >

> > > > > Of course they do. Why wouldn't they?

> > > > >

> > > > > Even if there was no condi dmg at all, sigil of cleansing would still be the best sigil in the game just to clear immobilize/chill etc.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > Which ... has nothing to do with Toughness being great on condi builds?

> > >

> > > "Most condi builds also have ways of dealing with condis themselves."

> > >

> >

> > Thats ... still missing the point?

>

> Why did you say it then?

>

> > > > > > > > > There's plenty of tanky power builds that push out those levels of dmg,

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Not really. Power builds are either tanky, or do that much damage. Not both.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Warrior in zerker+durability for example is tankier than most trailblaze/dire builds.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Zerker Durability? Nah. But there is a Durability build that is about as tanky as Trailblazer/Dire builds. It also does a fraction of their damage.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Durability runes have been the go to for a very long time for warrior (and basically every other remotely tanky power build I guess)

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > They have been, but if you go Zerker Durability, youre not even half as tanky as a tanky condi build.

> > > > >

> > > > > Between your various invulns/blocks/resistance etc, together with very high mobility, you very much are at least as tanky as a condi rev.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > Warrior can only shrug off one type of damage at a time, or he is blocking. Problem is, while youre blocking, youre not doing damage. And if you want to do the same level of damage, youre not nearly as tanky, so your heals are less effective.

> > >

> > > But according to you power is nonexistent so...

> > >

> > > Also you can activate 2 stances at once, shocker I know.

> > >

> >

> > Power is rare, not non-existent. Yeah, they could use Berserker Stance. Sadly even that one is just pulsing Resistance, and that can be stripped or corrupted. It also doesnt last very long.

>

> You can't strip pulsing resistamce really. Berserker stance is very good.

>

 

Permanently, no. But you can strip each of them and let the condis hit them for a tick. Or if youre Scourge you can just corrupt 4 times in a row. Thats also an option.

 

> > > > > > > > > Scrapper is tanky in some mix of Marauder+zerk+durability and definitively does respectable damage

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > This one is pretty tanky. But its damage is, once again, a fraction of an equivalent tanky condi build.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > No it isn't, scrapper can do good dmg

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > It can do *decent* damage. But not even *remotely* in the ballpark of a condi build. With condi builds, youre looking at up to 10k burst damage, and sustained DPS of like 5k+ per second. On Scrapper, youre looking at half that, at *best*. Usually less. There is no comparision, Scrapper does only a fraction of the condi builds damage.

> > > > >

> > > > > If a scrapper is only doing half of a condi rev in the same situation they're flat out playing bad, or have a very bad scrapper build. Probably both.

> > > > >

> > > > > 5k per second lmao, talk about hyperbole. Assuming you mean single target, cause on AoE or just depends on the number of targets, more so than the skills used.

> > > > >

> > > > > It's rare that I get incoming dmg of over 2. 5k/sec vs power or condi in 1v1s. This while playing a build with low avoidance uptime, so the numbers are fairly reasonable.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > Incorrect. Im starting to think you have never faced a condi rev if you seriously think *Scrapper* can do even remotely as much damage as they do. And given that you think 5k per second is hyperbole, rather than an *underestimation*, yeah you definitely havent. The build does 3k per second even through repeated cleanses, now imagine what happens if they dont have cleanse. No, Scrapper wont do even remotely as much damage. Theyre a great player, theyre playing the optimal scrapper build. Doesnt matter. They just dont have the damage, not even remotely.

> > >

> > > Flat out wrong, sorry. This is why people should have arcdps on...

> > >

> >

> > It doesnt matter if you believe that its flat out wrong, fact is its not. Combat log suffices for testing that. Though, I asked someone who runs Scrapper to test it himself, even with your beloved arcdps. Exactly the same result (well, I say exactly, it was like 4.7k on the Condi rev). So yeah, even with your beloved arcdps, the fact doesnt change.

>

> To test their dmg vs a roughly equally good condi rev in the same group.

>

 

Yes thaats what I did. Condi Rev did significantly higher damage.

 

> > > > > > > > > There's a ton more tanky power builds with high dmg, but not gonna list all of them here.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > There are tanky builds that do a decent amount of damage. But accross all of them, you have the same issue. Theyre either less tanky, or do a fraction of the damage of the equivalent condi builds. Of course, Condi builds do have to contend with multiple condition cleanses, and they would *still* be superior.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > That's just incorrect. Warrior and scrapper for example are both very strong at the moment. Both are tanky power builds (that also have an extremely easy time dealing with condi).

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Theyre decent builds. But that doesnt change the fact that they are either less tanky, or do *much* less damage, than condi builds. They have other strengths, utility and CC, but damage wise, its just such a huge gap.

> > > > >

> > > > > The dmg gap isn't massive. They're comparable, obviously some condi builds have a little bit more sustained dmg as they lack burst (and therefore should have more sustained dmg).

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > Its objectively massive. Even through repeated cleanses with things like Firebrand, condi builds outdamage power builds. Now imagine there is no firebrand. Way bigger. They dont have "a little" more sustained damage, they have easily twice as much, if not more, sustained damage. Sadly, they also do *not* lack burst. If anything, they actually burst better right now. A burn Guard can easily burst for 11k on the first tick of burning, with the second tick killing. And that burst is *instant*. Power? No such luck.

> > >

> > > No they don't.

> > >

> >

> > I dont know what to say here other than "yes, they do".

> >

> > > I don't have a pocket firebrand, I don't struggle with condi...

> > >

> >

> > Because you appear to almost never fight condi builds, or only fight ones that are extremely terrible. You claim that you totally do fine against condi builds while only being able to clear 4 conditions. Given that the minimum amount of conditions you need to be able to clear to have a decent chance is somewhere around 10-15, thats not believable.

>

> I fight a normal amount of condi builds.

>

> 4 condis every 10 sec, I guess I also have 5 cleared on heal every 30 sec, but don't really need it that much.

>

 

Yeah, thats completely insufficient. You need to be able to clear 3-4 conditions at least 3 times in 5 seconds. If your amount of cleanses are enough, they must not even be using their skills.

 

> > > Burn guard has been mentioned, it definitively has too much burst. But this is also a ridiculous hyperbole, I haven't been ticked 11k burn ever I think, certainly not commonly and burnguards are common.

> > >

> >

> > Its not hyperbole at all. Ive been hit harder than that. A lot harder. 11k is just the most recent one Ive been hit by.

>

> Sounds like you need to avoid their hits more.

>

 

Which part of "instant" do you think is avoidable? Its instant. Id have to be precognitiant to be able to avoid their damage. Im not.

 

> > > > > > > > > I am actually in favor of demolisher existing in WvW, it would definitively see a lot of use.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Right now? It wouldnt. Its basically Marauders, but significantly worse against the currently overperforming condi builds.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > It definitively would, warrior would run at least a number of it.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Why would Warrior run it? There are hardly any Power builds around, and its a lot weaker against condi builds. There is legitimately *no* reason to drop Marauder for Demolishers.

> > > > >

> > > > > Warrior shouldn't run Marauder atm, it's terrible. They already have like 22k hp with durability runes in pure zerk.

> > > > >

> > > > > Demolisher would def be optimal to run a number of.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > Of course it should run Marauder, its great. Yes, they already have a lot of health. But more health is better. And the optimal number of Demolishers is 0. Its worse than Marauder by a ***wide*** margin in this condi meta. Youre basically obtaining a stat that does literally nothing against the strongest, and most prevalent damage type. While only being very slightly better against the weaker damage type. Why do you think not a single power build runs even a single piece of toughness armour? Even *Diviner* is being run.

> > >

> > > Because there's no good power+toughness stat combos in WvW.

> > >

> >

> > Until the meta changes and Toughness on power builds becomes worth using, no power + toughness stat combo is "good".

>

> Well no matter the meta there simply is no good one. Demolisher doesn't exist in WvW. Cavalier sucks, knight sucks etc.

>

 

Demolishers wouldnt be good either. Its not even good in PvP right now. Its all Zerkers or Marauders.

 

> > > > > > > > > Paladin too, though I think it wouldn't be particularly used.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > It has a better chance, but probably not.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > No it doesn't.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > It does. It gives vitality, which is the best defensive stat right now. There is at least a case to be made over Marauders. There isnt for Demolishers.

> > > > >

> > > > > Vitality makes you die slower, it doesn't make you survive, after roughly the 20-25k mark it's fairly pointless on most builds, toughness shifts the incoming dps vs hps in your favor.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > Thats what surviving means. Its dying slower. And you would be (technically) right if power was prevalent and the stronger damage type. Its not, and its not. Against condi, instead of Vitality giving you 5000 extra EHP, Toughness gives you close to 0 EHP. In a meta where that damage type is far more powerful and prevalent, thats bad.

> > >

> > > Surviving =/= dying slower

> > >

> > > Necro dies slowly, yet lacks the ability to survive, since it's basically a hp pinata. See the difference?

> > >

> >

> > Uh, are we just ignoring that Necro has heals and barrier? I guess we are. No, necro dies slowly and is great at surviving.

>

> Scourge has barrier.

>

> Necro can be unkillable 1v1 atm but just dies slowly in group fights when focused.

>

 

Yeah. I guess we dont really have a good word for the shroud pseudo-health stuff. But its also there. And yes, of course it dies slowly when focused. Professions die when focused. Dying slowly is already great.

 

> > > Hyperbole and incorrect again.

> > >

> >

> > Not hyperbole, and entirely correct Im afraid. Toughness against condi builds only reduces power damage, which is almost none of their damage. Hence it increases your EHP by basically 0. And Condi builds are far more powerful and prevalent, thats why 80+% of roamers you see are condi.

>

> But if toughness is useless... Shouldn't condi builds run plaguedoctor instead....

>

 

Healing Power and Concentration arent great stats. Sides, its not that Toughness is useless, just that its not that good when condi is the dominant form of damage. But condi builds already tend to have their own anti-condi measures. Might as well cover the bases for the rare burst power builds.

 

> > > > > > > > > As far as I am concerned we should just be able to "create" or own stat combinations following the current rules. (ie 4 stat gives 10% more than 3 stat, with 2 big and 2 small stats etc.)

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > That would certainly break condi even more. Until it gets a rework (Which it does need badly), we shouldnt do anything like that.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > As condi I almost have my perfect stat combinations though. The ones I could create with such a system would be marginal improvements.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > For power, there is no improvement at all. We pretty much have the most optimal combination, its sadly not a tanky one. We cant afford to play the tanky builds.

> > > > >

> > > > > Marauder but with big ferocity instead of precision (and small precision) would see a lot of use, especially in combination with Marauder to max out effective power.

> > > > >

> > > > > Marauder but with healing power instead of vit would see some use, it would be especially strong vs condi.

> > > > >

> > > > > Just 2 power stat combos of the top of my head, I am sure there's a lot more that would see some use.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > The first wouldnt, given that the builds that completely max out on precision already have better stats to go for. The latter also wouldnt. Avatar stats exist (swapping ferocity for healing power instead), and its completely unused. For regular power builds healing power just isnt good enough. For bunker builds, they have better options.

> > >

> > > Power reaper would use marauder with big fero and small preci in some numbers as max hp scales well with shroud.

> > >

> > > Avatar isn't even similar, it has no ferocity and is in sPvP a very different environment.

> > >

> >

> > Oh, right, Avatar is PvP only. I couldve sworn it was a PvE prefix. And Power Reaper wouldnt, at least anymore. In a meta as dominated by condition builds and with as many condition cleanses as this one, well Decimate Defenses becomes rather ineffective. You cant rely on it anymore, so you need crit chance for the big ferocity payoff.

>

> You still get 33% from death perception. Decimate was never good tbh.

>

> One would have to do the math to see if it gives more effective power than marauder and at what point, probably depends on if you can reliably get fury, but I am too lazy to do the math on that.

>

 

Yeah but that 33% alone isnt enough. And nah, Decimate was good before, it let the Reaper be tanky while doing decent damage.

 

> > > > > > > > > > I mean, that would not say much given that it depends on who youre facing, how often, and so on. But I can tell you this, every time I look through my combat log after roaming around in WvW for a couple hours, its almost entirely condition damage.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > "Look through combat log"

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Use arcdps. The combat log is trash.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > The combat log perfectly represents the damage youve taken. Arcdps only makes it easier to read, but has issues with how it counts damage.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > It doesn't have any issues.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > I look through logs after every evening of smallscale WvW and also shortly after each fight. With an average group size of 3 (sometimes 2, rarely 4).

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > I extremely rarely take more than 30% condi dmg. Much less 50%

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > If youre playing with a group, odds are you have AoE condi cleanses. Perhaps even once you dont notice.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I actually would, because I know the build of everyone I play with.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I know that a tempest isn't gonna throw me any clears, cause the only group clears it has is 1 clear on the shout heal and overload water, which is used very sparsely.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I know that the other dps in my group doesn't actually have any AoE clears.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Even so I can look at logs and conclude that I usually get about 1 clear/30 sec from others, hardly a massive amount.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Water Overload clears 4 conditions. I also cant imagine they wouldnt be running the water traitline which adds some more clears. But, if what you say is true, then youre just extremely lucky with your enemies. Especially because if what you say is true, a single Condition Revenant should rip and tear through your entire team.

> > > > >

> > > > > Water doesn't actually give much clear of you take powerful aura. Especially if you also take soothing disruption, which the tempest in question does.

> > > > >

> > > > > As I said in most fights it averages out to 1 clear/25-35 sec.

> > > > >

> > > > > Overload water isn't exactly something you can spam when outnumbered since you will just get CCed get water on 20 sec cd and die.

> > > > >

> > > > > Also we just cc and kill the condi revs before they do.

> > > > >

> > > > > Condi rev is also weak to power so you shouldn't really struggle with them.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > Condi rev is not weak to power. At *all*. Also if youre outnumbering to the point where you can CC and kill the condi rev without him fighting back, sure. But then you can do the exact same thing with every single build in the game, and you should be taking absolutely 0 damage. And even then Im gonna have to doubt it, because just Invoke Torment + Embrace the Darkness would still be ticking and completely obliterate your team with your lack of cleanses ensuring your untimely demise.

> > >

> > > Well invoke torment is a whole 1 stack of torment

> > >

> > > EtD is 1 stack /sec, 3 if they can consistently use skills. Hardly anything that anyone with healing and reasonable clears would die to.

> > >

> > > It's also all 240 radius, just don't stand on it.

> > >

> > >

> > > Sigil of cleansing isn't lack of clears lmao.

> > >

> >

> > 1 stack of burning, poison and Torment instantly. Or that would be it. But then you also get Torment from Call of the Demon. Oh but then you also get 3 poison from Doom ontop of that. And probably another 2 stacks of torment from Sigil of Torment. Suddenly that turns from not that noticable to a major problem, doesnt it. And thats just one button. 240 is also a pretty big radius, and you want to CC them, remember? Yes, Sigil of Cleansing alone is a lack of clears in a meta where you need to be able to cleanse 10-15 conditions to survive.

>

> Olay so they run doom+torment and no permeating pestilence.

>

> So they have no clears at all in their build except for true nature Demon, that sounds like a bad rev build.

>

> The little resistance from Demon is def not enough to not just get immobilized to death in every fight for them.

>

> Also 240 is tiny, invoke torment also has an animation.

>

 

Ignoring that they have a ton of resistance, that they have *2* weaponsets so more Sigils, Hardening Persistence ontop of Infuse Light and True Nature demon, sure. And no, its more than enough. 240 is almost the distance of a full dodge. It does have an animation, but the conditions are applied on the first frame, the animation is just there to signify that you were hit.

 

> > > > > > > > > The times I do are:

> > > > > > > > > 1v1 with condi builds (lol)

> > > > > > > > > Eating a big transfer from transfer herald

> > > > > > > > > The time I get stuck in SoJ

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > My support essentially has no group clears (WET tempest with powerful aura and no trooper runes, usually does roughly 10% of my clears according to logs) and I mostly just have sigil of cleansing as my clears, so hardly overloading on anti-condi stuff.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > This is with permanent protection as well so I "should" be taking more condi dmg than power.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Then perhaps you just got extremely lucky. Its *very* rare for me to take more power than condi damage. Obviously, most roamers I meet are condi because its better, and they do more damage, because its better. And keep in mind, Im playing Core Engineer with Elixir C and its *still* not enough.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I got extremely "lucky" in almost every fight, every evening since the patch across a multitude of various matchups.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Sounds very likely.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > About as likely as being able to survive a condi rev with just Sigil of Cleansing. Which is to say, not possible. Ergo, you mustve been able to avoid Condi Revs entirely. Because if you actually faced one, you would get condi bombed, use Sigil of cleansing, get condi bombed *again* and die in 2 seconds. Given that, it means that if youre not taking that much condi damage, you just arent facing condi builds. Simple as that.

> > > > >

> > > > > Have you tried combining cleansing with dodging key skills, counterpressuring, stunning them etc?

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > Yes? Do you think that works, though? Because their "key skills" are pulsing AoEs, instant AoEs and other undodgable things. If just CCing was enough to kill them, it would be enough to kill anyone. Counterpressuring would work if any attempt to pressure them doesnt also get me killed, and way faster than they are.

> > >

> > > Assuming you're talking about condi rev still.

> > >

> > > Pulsing AoEs can be moved out of.

> > >

> > > Mace 3 on rev is the key pressure skill they have, it is very telegraphed.

> > > CtA is also very telegraphed.

> > > Searing fissure too.

> > >

> >

> > Not if you want to pressure them. Well, even then moving out is rather hard on a class that also happens to constantly chill you while youre severely lacking in condi clears. And sure, the others are reasonably telegraphed, but they come after youre already screwed.

>

> So they're somehow constantly chilling you while keeping EtD up, that's not possible energywise, if try to do it dodge and laugh at them as they're out of energy.

>

 

Revenants have this neat little trick where swapping weapons or legends fully refreshes their energy. They also run Hydromancy.

 

> > > > > > > I wish I was fighting more condi then I could just equip one of the many extremely strong counters and take vastly less dmg than I do now.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > You do realize that clears aren't supposed to make you immune right, just delay your death. So that you can kill them before they kill you. Of you frequently struggle it's either a player error or your build should run more clears.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Thats the theory. In actuality, the way it works out is that you try to delay your death 4 or 5 times, and then die anyway because even with an abundance of condi clears, the enemy build is both much tankier and does a metric crapton more damage than you do. To put it bluntly, my build cannot run any more condi clears. Its literally maxed out on them. Including several that clear the entire condi bomb. And guess what? Its *still* nowhere close enough.

> > > > >

> > > > > Then you're not pressuring them back

> > > >

> > > > Nope, I am. But even when pressuring them, they still kill you faster than you kill them. Any attempt to hit them makes them able to hit you. Its not a trade you win.

> > >

> > > Then kite them, they're slow, you're core engi iirc, you're not exactly made to be able to beat them at facetanking and bashing each in melee but you have plenty of other advantages.

> > >

> > > Depending of course on your build, I also don't know how strong your build is overall obviously.

> > >

> >

> > Sadly, theyre not slow at all. Their build can access perma swiftness, has a number of dashes, and applies chill from afar with ease. They will catch up to you. Kiting is a nice idea, but a complete non-starter.

>

> No. They're very slow compared to most builds that would need to kite them.

>

 

Theyre faster than my engineer. Perma-swiftness, boon removal to stop mine, chill, and even a couple dashes. There isnt any way for me to "kite" them. In fact, Im pretty sure the *only* build that can kite them is Longbow Ranger. *If* the Revenant doesnt dodge knockback shot. If he does then eve nthey cant.

 

> > > > >and ccing them,

> > > >

> > > > Nope. I am CC-ing them. Sadly, thats not a magical fix-all method. There is this concept called "stunbreak". It allows for the Revenant to break out of stuns, or other CC. They further have another tool called "stability", it prevents the next CC.

> > >

> > > Well I guess you never actually played condi rev, the stunbreaks and stab sources are awful.

> > >

> > > CC is highly effective against condi rev.

> > >

> >

> > Clearly you havent. They have 2 stunbreaks and up to 2 sources of stability. Thats actually not that little. I dont know about your build, but mine doesnt have 4 sources of hard CC back to back to back. Ive got 2 and thats already on the higher end. I could get 3, but even that isnt enough.

>

> Let's assume herald dragon+Demon

>

> Their source of stab is only on stunbreak (if they even run it)

>

> Demon stunbreak is atrociously bad

>

> Dragon has one on a long cd.

>

 

Of course they run it. But 5 seconds of stability is a long time, and I have no way to survive that long against them. Demon Stunbreak is still a stunbreak. Great or not, it does the job. Long CD doesnt matter, Ill not get to survive until my stuns are back up (theyre also long cd btw).

 

> > > > >you could just be playing worse than they are, or your build might lack pressure.

> > > >

> > > > Nope, and nope. My build has plenty of pressure, but of course, its not a condi build, especially not condi rev, so it has less. Im playing as well as you can, but its just not winnable.

> > >

> > > I doubt you're playing "as well as it's possible"

> > >

> > > Cause it sounds like they're pressuring you more effectively than you pressure them.

> > >

> >

> > Yes. That doesnt preclude playing as well as possible. Of course they pressure me more effectively. They do several times my damage and have several times my survivability. It would be rather incredibly if despite those handicaps I could somehow outpressure them. But its not possible. Not without them sucking.

>

> You're not tho, there is not a single player who plays "as well as possible"

>

> Could also be your build just being weak.

>

 

Let me put it this way: no improvement you could make could make the fight winnable. Not unless that improvement includes "partnering up with a Firebrand". And eh, my build isnt top tier meta, but the others dont perform much better either. Remember, Condi Rev was hilariously dominant in sPvPs 2v2 mode despite Firebrand being in nearly every match. Condi builds in sPvP dont have good stat sets to work with in WvW while power ones do. They also have worse runes and sigils. And it *still* dominated through dozens of cleanses.

 

> > > > > > > I somehow don't struggle with sigil of cleansing being about 75% of my clears.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Which simply means you arent facing condi builds. If you did, you would simply lose instantly because Sigil of Cleansing is about 15 condis cleansed too little.

> > > > >

> > > > > I fight them quite frequently, transfer heralds specifically are very common and people like to bust them out to try to kill you with true nature Demon alone. Not as often as power builds though.

> > > > >

> > > > > I of course like anyone every now and then have fights where condi dmg is the bulk of what kills me, but they're fairly rare.

> > > > >

> > > > > Both dmg types would have the possibility of killing enemies, so that I every now and then die to mostly condi is fairly natural. The fact remains that it's far less common than how often power is the bulk of the dmg I take.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > You claim that, with Sigil of Cleansing, you totally dont struggle with them. That is impossible. If you are fighting them, relying on Cleansing Sigil, you should be dying instantly unless they are *terrible*. Given that, and given that you claim that, even with sigil of cleansing and toughness, you take less damage from power, despite the fact that accross my last couple weeks of roaming roughly 80% of roamers I encountered were condi, means that you are just not facing condi builds.

> > >

> > > Well "terrible" is a matter of perspective I guess.

> > >

> >

> > I dont know what perspective you could have where "failing to destroy someone who has about 10 cleanses too little to survive your damage" is anything but terrible.

>

> Could also have to do with how one uses their clears you know, and how much of the condis you just facetank for no reason.

>

> > > I am fairly certain you're lying or unable to realize that just cause you have 5 stacks of bleeding on you, odds are what put them there isn't a condi build, but a power build.

> > >

> >

> > Yes, that invisible power build that can apply 5 stacks of bleeding while being so invisible, it doesnt even show up in the combat log. Yeah, no. See, here is what happens. They condi bomb me. I cleanse. They condi bomb me again. I cleanse again. They condi bomb me a third time. I cleanse a third time. Now Im out of condi cleanses, they bomb me *again* and Im dead. Against you what should happen is they condi bomb you, you cleanse, they condi bomb you again and you already die.

>

> So you stand in their AoEs? Dodge/block etc still works vs condi.

>

 

It *would*, if the majority of condi bombs werent either instant, pulsing AoEs, on-X effects that dont get consumed if you dodge/block or unblockables. Therein lies the issue though. They are. If condi damage was as avoidable as power damage, it would be far less of a problem, but sadly its not even remotely as avoidable.

 

> > > > > > @"Gorani.7205" said:

> > > > > > My subjective observations (running a Marauder Tempest for roaming & small scale fights with allies)

> > > > > > I encounter power based one shot builds a lot less and do a lot better vs. power based builds, especially Thieves.

> > > > > > I see a lot more condi based professions around, especially Rev/Herald and Necros. The number of condis they can dump on you compared to my cleanses makes them winners in fights that drag out. Losing some punch by CC skills not having a decent damage component seems to be as much a factor as power having lost its big spike potential.

> > > > > > I have to admit, I don't run Runes/Sigils that remove condis, but the fact that this is strongly advised at the moment should be an indication of some Condi "supremacy" over Power specs.

> > > > >

> > > > > So you shouldn't have to run any condi clears?

> > > > >

> > > > > Sigil of cleansing would be the strongest sigil even if condi dmg didn't exist, because immob exists (and the other debilitating conditions).

> > > > >

> > > > > Giving up a sigil is such an extremely tiny concession and cleansing does so much versus it, so tbh if you don't run cleansing and die to condi it's your own fault.

> > > > >

> > > > > Power is still dominant. Like it's always been (or at least it has the entire time I played, which is since slightly pre-HoT)

> > > >

> > > > Yes, power is so dominant almost no roamer uses power, and the few that do are still outclassed by condi builds. Its so dominant the best roamers are Condi Rev, Burn Weaver, Burn Guard and various versions of condi necro.

> > >

> > > Lol, doubt it

> >

> > Doubt what, the easily observed fact that condi is far more prevalent?

>

> Well given that I've observed the opposite.

 

Most people clearly havent, so you seem to be the outlier.

[UNOwen.7132]

> @"pninak.1069" said:

> the idea that when you get attacked by a condi build with 1 skill you just die is absolutly false. condi has a long ramp up time and the condis on its own don't really do much dmg. you are far faster by bursting down the player. you forgot that they pretty much keep reducing stacks and changing it to a longer duration instead. so the overall cap you can reach with condi is far lower and also less bursty.

 

I wish it was false, but sadly its the absolute truth. You are about 2 years out of date. Condi does not have a long ramp up time (unless you count <1 second as "long". Condis do *absurd* damage. A condi build will burst a power build *much* faster than vice versa, both due to having higher burst (like burn guard) and due to having much higher defensive stats. And yes, they have been doing that. It has failed to solve the issue. Burn guard still bursts you for 11k on the first tick (or more). Scourge puts enough condis on you for you to die in 2 ticks at the start of a fight. Just swapping legends on Condi Rev is enough to kill you.

[pninak.1069]

> @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > @"pninak.1069" said:

> > the idea that when you get attacked by a condi build with 1 skill you just die is absolutly false. condi has a long ramp up time and the condis on its own don't really do much dmg. you are far faster by bursting down the player. you forgot that they pretty much keep reducing stacks and changing it to a longer duration instead. so the overall cap you can reach with condi is far lower and also less bursty.

>

> I wish it was false, but sadly its the absolute truth. You are about 2 years out of date. Condi does not have a long ramp up time (unless you count <1 second as "long". Condis do *absurd* damage. A condi build will burst a power build *much* faster than vice versa, both due to having higher burst (like burn guard) and due to having much higher defensive stats. And yes, they have been doing that. It has failed to solve the issue. Burn guard still bursts you for 11k on the first tick (or more). Scourge puts enough condis on you for you to die in 2 ticks at the start of a fight. Just swapping legends on Condi Rev is enough to kill you.

 

yea you are lying. it isn't that fast. also you forgot the dmg component of the attack. so you obviously don't know if you die due to condis or the dmg on top of the conditions. otherwise you wouldn't have glasscannon guardians still doing oneshots.

[UNOwen.7132]

> @"pninak.1069" said:

> > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > @"pninak.1069" said:

> > > the idea that when you get attacked by a condi build with 1 skill you just die is absolutly false. condi has a long ramp up time and the condis on its own don't really do much dmg. you are far faster by bursting down the player. you forgot that they pretty much keep reducing stacks and changing it to a longer duration instead. so the overall cap you can reach with condi is far lower and also less bursty.

> >

> > I wish it was false, but sadly its the absolute truth. You are about 2 years out of date. Condi does not have a long ramp up time (unless you count <1 second as "long". Condis do *absurd* damage. A condi build will burst a power build *much* faster than vice versa, both due to having higher burst (like burn guard) and due to having much higher defensive stats. And yes, they have been doing that. It has failed to solve the issue. Burn guard still bursts you for 11k on the first tick (or more). Scourge puts enough condis on you for you to die in 2 ticks at the start of a fight. Just swapping legends on Condi Rev is enough to kill you.

>

> yea you are lying. it isn't that fast. also you forgot the dmg component of the attack. so you obviously don't know if you die due to condis or the dmg on top of the conditions. otherwise you wouldn't have glasscannon guardians still doing oneshots.

 

It *literally* is. Burn guards burst is instant (literally), condi Revs legend Swap is instant (literally), and Scourges is like half a second. Thats not long at all. And no, I didnt. The power damage condi builds do is *extremely low*. If I take 11k damage from one tick of burning twice and like 1500 power damage, I can tell you for sure that I died to the burning. And I dont know if you know, but the only oneshot guardians are burn guardians, and theyre not glass cannons.

[Shroud.2307]

A few things I want to add.

 

Conditions are not often the killer in large scale, they secure the skill if a player has taken near lethal damage and still have Conditions on them after escaping a bomb.

 

"Tank" stats, eg. Dire/Trailblazer are not available in PvP the same as Minstrel or Nomad because PvP is centered on node combat with less players. It is far too easy for builds to use these stats to bunker a node without enough players to punish someone doing so. WvW takes place in an open field where the scale of a fight can expand near infinitely in a short span of time without nodes being an issue. Holding a Sentry or Supply camp hardly counts when doing so will often result in the player becoming heavily outnumbered anyway.

 

PvP and WvW are completely different in many ways. PvP is essentially a condensed version of WvW with much, much shorter matches, much fewer players, completely different balance and completely different metas. There is no sense in comparing the two.

 

There are a handful of builds that can "burst" Conditions but first, that does not mean Conditions themselves are an issue nor does it mean certain stat combinations are, and second most of those "burst" type builds have extremely poor duration scaling anyway. A Thief in full Trailblazer still has very short durations on it's Conditions, it's all about the Steal -> Sneak attack spam because it's their only real source of heavy Condition application while still preserving options for survival. If you avoid the Steal or have a large cleanse ( eg. Elixir C ) their entire burst is negated and their only follow up is auto attacks and low cost secondary skills ( Bleeds, Immobilize, Poison ). Yes, some builds on certain professions could stand to see adjustments, Burn Guard/DH/FB is currently becoming problematic as it is strong both large scale and small, but again that does not mean knee capping things across the board.

 

Lastly, Conditions are starting to solidify their place in small scale combat and are almost wholly ineffectively in large scale as they have been for a very long time. This means it will be easier for smaller groups to isolate and punish stragglers because certain class builds are more reliant on their group support to survive. WvW is becoming more diversified and balanced despite what many are claiming ( and will no matter the state of things because if it doesn't fit someone's ideals, it must be broken ).

 

A Sigil of Cleansing should be mandatory on one weapon set for anyone planning to roam or small scale. And of course it has value in large scale as well. A minimum of one Condition cleanse trait or utility should also always be taken the same way you would always take a stun break. If you are not using a stun break(s) and you get CC'd to death you blame yourself but if you have no/not enough cleanses and get condi'd to death, Conditions should be nerfed? Come prepared or blame yourself if you're not.

[pninak.1069]

> @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > @"pninak.1069" said:

> > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > > @"pninak.1069" said:

> > > > the idea that when you get attacked by a condi build with 1 skill you just die is absolutly false. condi has a long ramp up time and the condis on its own don't really do much dmg. you are far faster by bursting down the player. you forgot that they pretty much keep reducing stacks and changing it to a longer duration instead. so the overall cap you can reach with condi is far lower and also less bursty.

> > >

> > > I wish it was false, but sadly its the absolute truth. You are about 2 years out of date. Condi does not have a long ramp up time (unless you count <1 second as "long". Condis do *absurd* damage. A condi build will burst a power build *much* faster than vice versa, both due to having higher burst (like burn guard) and due to having much higher defensive stats. And yes, they have been doing that. It has failed to solve the issue. Burn guard still bursts you for 11k on the first tick (or more). Scourge puts enough condis on you for you to die in 2 ticks at the start of a fight. Just swapping legends on Condi Rev is enough to kill you.

> >

> > yea you are lying. it isn't that fast. also you forgot the dmg component of the attack. so you obviously don't know if you die due to condis or the dmg on top of the conditions. otherwise you wouldn't have glasscannon guardians still doing oneshots.

>

> It *literally* is. Burn guards burst is instant (literally), condi Revs legend Swap is instant (literally), and Scourges is like half a second. Thats not long at all. And no, I didnt. The power damage condi builds do is *extremely low*. If I take 11k damage from one tick of burning twice and like 1500 power damage, I can tell you for sure that I died to the burning. And I dont know if you know, but the only oneshot guardians are burn guardians, and theyre not glass cannons.

 

no. you can suffer from burning and still take majority of dmg by raw dmg. just because you get into downstate when you got buring doesn't mean burning is the source of the dmg you have taken.

 

what you are doing is a naive fallacy. you don't dive into the details of the situation. so I assume you are just butthurt, because you can't just win while doing nothin takin all the dmg etc.

[lodjur.1284]

> @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > @"lodjur.1284" said:

> > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > > @"lodjur.1284" said:

> > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > > > > @"lodjur.1284" said:

> > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > > > > > > @"lodjur.1284" said:

> > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > > > > > > > > @"lodjur.1284" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > @"lodjur.1284" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Dawdler.8521" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Condi Rev doesnt because they just want to do *even more damage*, and their survivability is fine even without defensive stats.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > And other classes? You know the classes that have long since realized they need the sustain to be viable fighting power builds?

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > The problem is, you know who else realised that? *Power builds*. Difference is, they cant go full damage while going full defense at the same time. And, well, their survivability is fine. Take condi thief, or even Condi Mirage. Their survivability would be the *exact same* as the equivalent power build, if they had the same defensive stats. They just get to take a bunch of free tankiness ontop of that.

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > Condi thief and mirage are indeed problematic, the armor stats aren't the problems though.

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > It's the class design, even as condi they're highly mobile and bursty.

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > The only solution I can see is to force their condi weapons into hybrid ones, to the point where they need to run Viper/Grieving to achieve respectable damage, or completely gutting their power variants.

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > Removing trailblazer/dire (and apothecary and shaman and so on) would drastically reduce build diversity and leave thief and mirage (and a few other fringe options) as the only viable condi options, as they don't "need" trailblazer the same way that a non-bursty melee build does.

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > Tanky, melee, non-bursty condi builds should definitively exist and they need trailblazer.

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > Also condi revenant most definitively runs trailblazer and the only problematic parts of the build is

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > True Nature - Demon has 600 radius and is unavoidable (ignores evade, block and blind) and has the potential to "1-shot".

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > Infuse Light (dragon heal) is problematic as it's the kinda skill that really carries people, especially when already outnumbering.

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > This is why condi herald is hard to kill, not runes of Tormenting or trailblazer.

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > I wish Anet would implement something similar to ArcDPS dmg taken function in the core game so people could also see how rare it is that condition dmg is above 50% (or even above 30% for that matter).

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Actually, theyre not problematic, theyre both probably on the weaker side, I just used them as examples because they tend to use the same survivability as their power counterparts. Anyway, removing Trailblazer would keep the builds still viable. Even removing Dire would, you still have Rabid. Anyway, tanky condi builds are fine so long as they do the exact same level of damage as tanky power builds, instead of 3 or 4 times as much. They dont need Trailblazer, just like Prot Holo doesnt need Paladins, or even Demolishers.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > They definitively are, though imo not more than their power variants.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Their power variants also arent problematic. In case of Mesmer, less so.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > They are.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Again, hardly. Power Mesmer and power thief both are burst builds that dont burst very well. Theyre not even very good.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Problematic =/= good

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Both are very strong 1v1 too so eh.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Ghost thief was never good, but it was definitively problematic.

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Theyre both not great in 1v1s. Power Mesmer might be slightly better if he gets the drop on you. But fair enough on the problematic.

> > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Rabid is not even close to the third best condi statcombo. It's maybe 6th best, if even that.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Hardly. There are others good if you got a bunch of healing, but most condi builds dont really have much.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > It's always about incoming dps vs incoming hps on condi builds that care about toughness in the first place

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > The point of Toughness is just to reduce power damage. Most condi builds also have ways of dealing with condis themselves.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Of course they do. Why wouldn't they?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Even if there was no condi dmg at all, sigil of cleansing would still be the best sigil in the game just to clear immobilize/chill etc.

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Which ... has nothing to do with Toughness being great on condi builds?

> > > >

> > > > "Most condi builds also have ways of dealing with condis themselves."

> > > >

> > >

> > > Thats ... still missing the point?

> >

> > Why did you say it then?

> >

> > > > > > > > > > There's plenty of tanky power builds that push out those levels of dmg,

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Not really. Power builds are either tanky, or do that much damage. Not both.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Warrior in zerker+durability for example is tankier than most trailblaze/dire builds.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Zerker Durability? Nah. But there is a Durability build that is about as tanky as Trailblazer/Dire builds. It also does a fraction of their damage.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Durability runes have been the go to for a very long time for warrior (and basically every other remotely tanky power build I guess)

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > They have been, but if you go Zerker Durability, youre not even half as tanky as a tanky condi build.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Between your various invulns/blocks/resistance etc, together with very high mobility, you very much are at least as tanky as a condi rev.

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Warrior can only shrug off one type of damage at a time, or he is blocking. Problem is, while youre blocking, youre not doing damage. And if you want to do the same level of damage, youre not nearly as tanky, so your heals are less effective.

> > > >

> > > > But according to you power is nonexistent so...

> > > >

> > > > Also you can activate 2 stances at once, shocker I know.

> > > >

> > >

> > > Power is rare, not non-existent. Yeah, they could use Berserker Stance. Sadly even that one is just pulsing Resistance, and that can be stripped or corrupted. It also doesnt last very long.

> >

> > You can't strip pulsing resistamce really. Berserker stance is very good.

> >

>

> Permanently, no. But you can strip each of them and let the condis hit them for a tick. Or if youre Scourge you can just corrupt 4 times in a row. Thats also an option.

>

> > > > > > > > > > Scrapper is tanky in some mix of Marauder+zerk+durability and definitively does respectable damage

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > This one is pretty tanky. But its damage is, once again, a fraction of an equivalent tanky condi build.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > No it isn't, scrapper can do good dmg

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > It can do *decent* damage. But not even *remotely* in the ballpark of a condi build. With condi builds, youre looking at up to 10k burst damage, and sustained DPS of like 5k+ per second. On Scrapper, youre looking at half that, at *best*. Usually less. There is no comparision, Scrapper does only a fraction of the condi builds damage.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > If a scrapper is only doing half of a condi rev in the same situation they're flat out playing bad, or have a very bad scrapper build. Probably both.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > 5k per second lmao, talk about hyperbole. Assuming you mean single target, cause on AoE or just depends on the number of targets, more so than the skills used.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > It's rare that I get incoming dmg of over 2. 5k/sec vs power or condi in 1v1s. This while playing a build with low avoidance uptime, so the numbers are fairly reasonable.

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Incorrect. Im starting to think you have never faced a condi rev if you seriously think *Scrapper* can do even remotely as much damage as they do. And given that you think 5k per second is hyperbole, rather than an *underestimation*, yeah you definitely havent. The build does 3k per second even through repeated cleanses, now imagine what happens if they dont have cleanse. No, Scrapper wont do even remotely as much damage. Theyre a great player, theyre playing the optimal scrapper build. Doesnt matter. They just dont have the damage, not even remotely.

> > > >

> > > > Flat out wrong, sorry. This is why people should have arcdps on...

> > > >

> > >

> > > It doesnt matter if you believe that its flat out wrong, fact is its not. Combat log suffices for testing that. Though, I asked someone who runs Scrapper to test it himself, even with your beloved arcdps. Exactly the same result (well, I say exactly, it was like 4.7k on the Condi rev). So yeah, even with your beloved arcdps, the fact doesnt change.

> >

> > To test their dmg vs a roughly equally good condi rev in the same group.

> >

>

> Yes thaats what I did. Condi Rev did significantly higher damage.

>

> > > > > > > > > > There's a ton more tanky power builds with high dmg, but not gonna list all of them here.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > There are tanky builds that do a decent amount of damage. But accross all of them, you have the same issue. Theyre either less tanky, or do a fraction of the damage of the equivalent condi builds. Of course, Condi builds do have to contend with multiple condition cleanses, and they would *still* be superior.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > That's just incorrect. Warrior and scrapper for example are both very strong at the moment. Both are tanky power builds (that also have an extremely easy time dealing with condi).

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Theyre decent builds. But that doesnt change the fact that they are either less tanky, or do *much* less damage, than condi builds. They have other strengths, utility and CC, but damage wise, its just such a huge gap.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > The dmg gap isn't massive. They're comparable, obviously some condi builds have a little bit more sustained dmg as they lack burst (and therefore should have more sustained dmg).

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Its objectively massive. Even through repeated cleanses with things like Firebrand, condi builds outdamage power builds. Now imagine there is no firebrand. Way bigger. They dont have "a little" more sustained damage, they have easily twice as much, if not more, sustained damage. Sadly, they also do *not* lack burst. If anything, they actually burst better right now. A burn Guard can easily burst for 11k on the first tick of burning, with the second tick killing. And that burst is *instant*. Power? No such luck.

> > > >

> > > > No they don't.

> > > >

> > >

> > > I dont know what to say here other than "yes, they do".

> > >

> > > > I don't have a pocket firebrand, I don't struggle with condi...

> > > >

> > >

> > > Because you appear to almost never fight condi builds, or only fight ones that are extremely terrible. You claim that you totally do fine against condi builds while only being able to clear 4 conditions. Given that the minimum amount of conditions you need to be able to clear to have a decent chance is somewhere around 10-15, thats not believable.

> >

> > I fight a normal amount of condi builds.

> >

> > 4 condis every 10 sec, I guess I also have 5 cleared on heal every 30 sec, but don't really need it that much.

> >

>

> Yeah, thats completely insufficient. You need to be able to clear 3-4 conditions at least 3 times in 5 seconds. If your amount of cleanses are enough, they must not even be using their skills.

>

> > > > Burn guard has been mentioned, it definitively has too much burst. But this is also a ridiculous hyperbole, I haven't been ticked 11k burn ever I think, certainly not commonly and burnguards are common.

> > > >

> > >

> > > Its not hyperbole at all. Ive been hit harder than that. A lot harder. 11k is just the most recent one Ive been hit by.

> >

> > Sounds like you need to avoid their hits more.

> >

>

> Which part of "instant" do you think is avoidable? Its instant. Id have to be precognitiant to be able to avoid their damage. Im not.

>

> > > > > > > > > > I am actually in favor of demolisher existing in WvW, it would definitively see a lot of use.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Right now? It wouldnt. Its basically Marauders, but significantly worse against the currently overperforming condi builds.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > It definitively would, warrior would run at least a number of it.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Why would Warrior run it? There are hardly any Power builds around, and its a lot weaker against condi builds. There is legitimately *no* reason to drop Marauder for Demolishers.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Warrior shouldn't run Marauder atm, it's terrible. They already have like 22k hp with durability runes in pure zerk.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Demolisher would def be optimal to run a number of.

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Of course it should run Marauder, its great. Yes, they already have a lot of health. But more health is better. And the optimal number of Demolishers is 0. Its worse than Marauder by a ***wide*** margin in this condi meta. Youre basically obtaining a stat that does literally nothing against the strongest, and most prevalent damage type. While only being very slightly better against the weaker damage type. Why do you think not a single power build runs even a single piece of toughness armour? Even *Diviner* is being run.

> > > >

> > > > Because there's no good power+toughness stat combos in WvW.

> > > >

> > >

> > > Until the meta changes and Toughness on power builds becomes worth using, no power + toughness stat combo is "good".

> >

> > Well no matter the meta there simply is no good one. Demolisher doesn't exist in WvW. Cavalier sucks, knight sucks etc.

> >

>

> Demolishers wouldnt be good either. Its not even good in PvP right now. Its all Zerkers or Marauders.

>

> > > > > > > > > > Paladin too, though I think it wouldn't be particularly used.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > It has a better chance, but probably not.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > No it doesn't.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > It does. It gives vitality, which is the best defensive stat right now. There is at least a case to be made over Marauders. There isnt for Demolishers.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Vitality makes you die slower, it doesn't make you survive, after roughly the 20-25k mark it's fairly pointless on most builds, toughness shifts the incoming dps vs hps in your favor.

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Thats what surviving means. Its dying slower. And you would be (technically) right if power was prevalent and the stronger damage type. Its not, and its not. Against condi, instead of Vitality giving you 5000 extra EHP, Toughness gives you close to 0 EHP. In a meta where that damage type is far more powerful and prevalent, thats bad.

> > > >

> > > > Surviving =/= dying slower

> > > >

> > > > Necro dies slowly, yet lacks the ability to survive, since it's basically a hp pinata. See the difference?

> > > >

> > >

> > > Uh, are we just ignoring that Necro has heals and barrier? I guess we are. No, necro dies slowly and is great at surviving.

> >

> > Scourge has barrier.

> >

> > Necro can be unkillable 1v1 atm but just dies slowly in group fights when focused.

> >

>

> Yeah. I guess we dont really have a good word for the shroud pseudo-health stuff. But its also there. And yes, of course it dies slowly when focused. Professions die when focused. Dying slowly is already great.

>

> > > > Hyperbole and incorrect again.

> > > >

> > >

> > > Not hyperbole, and entirely correct Im afraid. Toughness against condi builds only reduces power damage, which is almost none of their damage. Hence it increases your EHP by basically 0. And Condi builds are far more powerful and prevalent, thats why 80+% of roamers you see are condi.

> >

> > But if toughness is useless... Shouldn't condi builds run plaguedoctor instead....

> >

>

> Healing Power and Concentration arent great stats. Sides, its not that Toughness is useless, just that its not that good when condi is the dominant form of damage. But condi builds already tend to have their own anti-condi measures. Might as well cover the bases for the rare burst power builds.

>

> > > > > > > > > > As far as I am concerned we should just be able to "create" or own stat combinations following the current rules. (ie 4 stat gives 10% more than 3 stat, with 2 big and 2 small stats etc.)

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > That would certainly break condi even more. Until it gets a rework (Which it does need badly), we shouldnt do anything like that.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > As condi I almost have my perfect stat combinations though. The ones I could create with such a system would be marginal improvements.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > For power, there is no improvement at all. We pretty much have the most optimal combination, its sadly not a tanky one. We cant afford to play the tanky builds.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Marauder but with big ferocity instead of precision (and small precision) would see a lot of use, especially in combination with Marauder to max out effective power.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Marauder but with healing power instead of vit would see some use, it would be especially strong vs condi.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Just 2 power stat combos of the top of my head, I am sure there's a lot more that would see some use.

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > The first wouldnt, given that the builds that completely max out on precision already have better stats to go for. The latter also wouldnt. Avatar stats exist (swapping ferocity for healing power instead), and its completely unused. For regular power builds healing power just isnt good enough. For bunker builds, they have better options.

> > > >

> > > > Power reaper would use marauder with big fero and small preci in some numbers as max hp scales well with shroud.

> > > >

> > > > Avatar isn't even similar, it has no ferocity and is in sPvP a very different environment.

> > > >

> > >

> > > Oh, right, Avatar is PvP only. I couldve sworn it was a PvE prefix. And Power Reaper wouldnt, at least anymore. In a meta as dominated by condition builds and with as many condition cleanses as this one, well Decimate Defenses becomes rather ineffective. You cant rely on it anymore, so you need crit chance for the big ferocity payoff.

> >

> > You still get 33% from death perception. Decimate was never good tbh.

> >

> > One would have to do the math to see if it gives more effective power than marauder and at what point, probably depends on if you can reliably get fury, but I am too lazy to do the math on that.

> >

>

> Yeah but that 33% alone isnt enough. And nah, Decimate was good before, it let the Reaper be tanky while doing decent damage.

 

No.

 

> > > > > > > > > > > I mean, that would not say much given that it depends on who youre facing, how often, and so on. But I can tell you this, every time I look through my combat log after roaming around in WvW for a couple hours, its almost entirely condition damage.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > "Look through combat log"

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Use arcdps. The combat log is trash.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > The combat log perfectly represents the damage youve taken. Arcdps only makes it easier to read, but has issues with how it counts damage.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > It doesn't have any issues.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > I look through logs after every evening of smallscale WvW and also shortly after each fight. With an average group size of 3 (sometimes 2, rarely 4).

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > I extremely rarely take more than 30% condi dmg. Much less 50%

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > If youre playing with a group, odds are you have AoE condi cleanses. Perhaps even once you dont notice.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > I actually would, because I know the build of everyone I play with.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > I know that a tempest isn't gonna throw me any clears, cause the only group clears it has is 1 clear on the shout heal and overload water, which is used very sparsely.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > I know that the other dps in my group doesn't actually have any AoE clears.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Even so I can look at logs and conclude that I usually get about 1 clear/30 sec from others, hardly a massive amount.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Water Overload clears 4 conditions. I also cant imagine they wouldnt be running the water traitline which adds some more clears. But, if what you say is true, then youre just extremely lucky with your enemies. Especially because if what you say is true, a single Condition Revenant should rip and tear through your entire team.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Water doesn't actually give much clear of you take powerful aura. Especially if you also take soothing disruption, which the tempest in question does.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > As I said in most fights it averages out to 1 clear/25-35 sec.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Overload water isn't exactly something you can spam when outnumbered since you will just get CCed get water on 20 sec cd and die.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Also we just cc and kill the condi revs before they do.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Condi rev is also weak to power so you shouldn't really struggle with them.

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Condi rev is not weak to power. At *all*. Also if youre outnumbering to the point where you can CC and kill the condi rev without him fighting back, sure. But then you can do the exact same thing with every single build in the game, and you should be taking absolutely 0 damage. And even then Im gonna have to doubt it, because just Invoke Torment + Embrace the Darkness would still be ticking and completely obliterate your team with your lack of cleanses ensuring your untimely demise.

> > > >

> > > > Well invoke torment is a whole 1 stack of torment

> > > >

> > > > EtD is 1 stack /sec, 3 if they can consistently use skills. Hardly anything that anyone with healing and reasonable clears would die to.

> > > >

> > > > It's also all 240 radius, just don't stand on it.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Sigil of cleansing isn't lack of clears lmao.

> > > >

> > >

> > > 1 stack of burning, poison and Torment instantly. Or that would be it. But then you also get Torment from Call of the Demon. Oh but then you also get 3 poison from Doom ontop of that. And probably another 2 stacks of torment from Sigil of Torment. Suddenly that turns from not that noticable to a major problem, doesnt it. And thats just one button. 240 is also a pretty big radius, and you want to CC them, remember? Yes, Sigil of Cleansing alone is a lack of clears in a meta where you need to be able to cleanse 10-15 conditions to survive.

> >

> > Olay so they run doom+torment and no permeating pestilence.

> >

> > So they have no clears at all in their build except for true nature Demon, that sounds like a bad rev build.

> >

> > The little resistance from Demon is def not enough to not just get immobilized to death in every fight for them.

> >

> > Also 240 is tiny, invoke torment also has an animation.

> >

>

> Ignoring that they have a ton of resistance, that they have *2* weaponsets so more Sigils, Hardening Persistence ontop of Infuse Light and True Nature demon, sure. And no, its more than enough. 240 is almost the distance of a full dodge. It does have an animation, but the conditions are applied on the first frame, the animation is just there to signify that you were hit.

 

The animation is them legend swapping, invoke is 1 sec after.

 

> > > > > > > > > > The times I do are:

> > > > > > > > > > 1v1 with condi builds (lol)

> > > > > > > > > > Eating a big transfer from transfer herald

> > > > > > > > > > The time I get stuck in SoJ

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > My support essentially has no group clears (WET tempest with powerful aura and no trooper runes, usually does roughly 10% of my clears according to logs) and I mostly just have sigil of cleansing as my clears, so hardly overloading on anti-condi stuff.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > This is with permanent protection as well so I "should" be taking more condi dmg than power.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Then perhaps you just got extremely lucky. Its *very* rare for me to take more power than condi damage. Obviously, most roamers I meet are condi because its better, and they do more damage, because its better. And keep in mind, Im playing Core Engineer with Elixir C and its *still* not enough.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > I got extremely "lucky" in almost every fight, every evening since the patch across a multitude of various matchups.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Sounds very likely.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > About as likely as being able to survive a condi rev with just Sigil of Cleansing. Which is to say, not possible. Ergo, you mustve been able to avoid Condi Revs entirely. Because if you actually faced one, you would get condi bombed, use Sigil of cleansing, get condi bombed *again* and die in 2 seconds. Given that, it means that if youre not taking that much condi damage, you just arent facing condi builds. Simple as that.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Have you tried combining cleansing with dodging key skills, counterpressuring, stunning them etc?

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Yes? Do you think that works, though? Because their "key skills" are pulsing AoEs, instant AoEs and other undodgable things. If just CCing was enough to kill them, it would be enough to kill anyone. Counterpressuring would work if any attempt to pressure them doesnt also get me killed, and way faster than they are.

> > > >

> > > > Assuming you're talking about condi rev still.

> > > >

> > > > Pulsing AoEs can be moved out of.

> > > >

> > > > Mace 3 on rev is the key pressure skill they have, it is very telegraphed.

> > > > CtA is also very telegraphed.

> > > > Searing fissure too.

> > > >

> > >

> > > Not if you want to pressure them. Well, even then moving out is rather hard on a class that also happens to constantly chill you while youre severely lacking in condi clears. And sure, the others are reasonably telegraphed, but they come after youre already screwed.

> >

> > So they're somehow constantly chilling you while keeping EtD up, that's not possible energywise, if try to do it dodge and laugh at them as they're out of energy.

> >

>

> Revenants have this neat little trick where swapping weapons or legends fully refreshes their energy. They also run Hydromancy.

 

They run hydromancy, torment and doom, all on the same bar, neat

 

How?

 

> > > > > > > > I wish I was fighting more condi then I could just equip one of the many extremely strong counters and take vastly less dmg than I do now.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > You do realize that clears aren't supposed to make you immune right, just delay your death. So that you can kill them before they kill you. Of you frequently struggle it's either a player error or your build should run more clears.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Thats the theory. In actuality, the way it works out is that you try to delay your death 4 or 5 times, and then die anyway because even with an abundance of condi clears, the enemy build is both much tankier and does a metric crapton more damage than you do. To put it bluntly, my build cannot run any more condi clears. Its literally maxed out on them. Including several that clear the entire condi bomb. And guess what? Its *still* nowhere close enough.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Then you're not pressuring them back

> > > > >

> > > > > Nope, I am. But even when pressuring them, they still kill you faster than you kill them. Any attempt to hit them makes them able to hit you. Its not a trade you win.

> > > >

> > > > Then kite them, they're slow, you're core engi iirc, you're not exactly made to be able to beat them at facetanking and bashing each in melee but you have plenty of other advantages.

> > > >

> > > > Depending of course on your build, I also don't know how strong your build is overall obviously.

> > > >

> > >

> > > Sadly, theyre not slow at all. Their build can access perma swiftness, has a number of dashes, and applies chill from afar with ease. They will catch up to you. Kiting is a nice idea, but a complete non-starter.

> >

> > No. They're very slow compared to most builds that would need to kite them.

> >

>

> Theyre faster than my engineer. Perma-swiftness, boon removal to stop mine, chill, and even a couple dashes. There isnt any way for me to "kite" them. In fact, Im pretty sure the *only* build that can kite them is Longbow Ranger. *If* the Revenant doesnt dodge knockback shot. If he does then eve nthey cant.

 

Ranger can very easily kite Rev of they run Longbow....

 

Anyway, you seem very uninterested in how things are and more interested in some crusade

 

> > > > > >and ccing them,

> > > > >

> > > > > Nope. I am CC-ing them. Sadly, thats not a magical fix-all method. There is this concept called "stunbreak". It allows for the Revenant to break out of stuns, or other CC. They further have another tool called "stability", it prevents the next CC.

> > > >

> > > > Well I guess you never actually played condi rev, the stunbreaks and stab sources are awful.

> > > >

> > > > CC is highly effective against condi rev.

> > > >

> > >

> > > Clearly you havent. They have 2 stunbreaks and up to 2 sources of stability. Thats actually not that little. I dont know about your build, but mine doesnt have 4 sources of hard CC back to back to back. Ive got 2 and thats already on the higher end. I could get 3, but even that isnt enough.

> >

> > Let's assume herald dragon+Demon

> >

> > Their source of stab is only on stunbreak (if they even run it)

> >

> > Demon stunbreak is atrociously bad

> >

> > Dragon has one on a long cd.

> >

>

> Of course they run it. But 5 seconds of stability is a long time, and I have no way to survive that long against them. Demon Stunbreak is still a stunbreak. Great or not, it does the job. Long CD doesnt matter, Ill not get to survive until my stuns are back up (theyre also long cd btw).

 

The trait is 2 sec

 

> > > > > >you could just be playing worse than they are, or your build might lack pressure.

> > > > >

> > > > > Nope, and nope. My build has plenty of pressure, but of course, its not a condi build, especially not condi rev, so it has less. Im playing as well as you can, but its just not winnable.

> > > >

> > > > I doubt you're playing "as well as it's possible"

> > > >

> > > > Cause it sounds like they're pressuring you more effectively than you pressure them.

> > > >

> > >

> > > Yes. That doesnt preclude playing as well as possible. Of course they pressure me more effectively. They do several times my damage and have several times my survivability. It would be rather incredibly if despite those handicaps I could somehow outpressure them. But its not possible. Not without them sucking.

> >

> > You're not tho, there is not a single player who plays "as well as possible"

> >

> > Could also be your build just being weak.

> >

>

> Let me put it this way: no improvement you could make could make the fight winnable. Not unless that improvement includes "partnering up with a Firebrand". And eh, my build isnt top tier meta, but the others dont perform much better either. Remember, Condi Rev was hilariously dominant in sPvPs 2v2 mode despite Firebrand being in nearly every match. Condi builds in sPvP dont have good stat sets to work with in WvW while power ones do. They also have worse runes and sigils. And it *still* dominated through dozens of cleanses.

 

Maybe your build is countered by condi rev, I haven't seen your build or seen you play so hard to say really. I know I don't struggle more with condi than against anything else (less even)

 

sPvP has 0 bearing on WvW

 

The most powerful counters don't even exist there.

 

Nor does the most powerful condi options.

 

The most powerful power options also don't exist there.

 

It's a completely different balance.

 

> > > > > > > > I somehow don't struggle with sigil of cleansing being about 75% of my clears.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Which simply means you arent facing condi builds. If you did, you would simply lose instantly because Sigil of Cleansing is about 15 condis cleansed too little.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I fight them quite frequently, transfer heralds specifically are very common and people like to bust them out to try to kill you with true nature Demon alone. Not as often as power builds though.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I of course like anyone every now and then have fights where condi dmg is the bulk of what kills me, but they're fairly rare.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Both dmg types would have the possibility of killing enemies, so that I every now and then die to mostly condi is fairly natural. The fact remains that it's far less common than how often power is the bulk of the dmg I take.

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > You claim that, with Sigil of Cleansing, you totally dont struggle with them. That is impossible. If you are fighting them, relying on Cleansing Sigil, you should be dying instantly unless they are *terrible*. Given that, and given that you claim that, even with sigil of cleansing and toughness, you take less damage from power, despite the fact that accross my last couple weeks of roaming roughly 80% of roamers I encountered were condi, means that you are just not facing condi builds.

> > > >

> > > > Well "terrible" is a matter of perspective I guess.

> > > >

> > >

> > > I dont know what perspective you could have where "failing to destroy someone who has about 10 cleanses too little to survive your damage" is anything but terrible.

> >

> > Could also have to do with how one uses their clears you know, and how much of the condis you just facetank for no reason.

> >

> > > > I am fairly certain you're lying or unable to realize that just cause you have 5 stacks of bleeding on you, odds are what put them there isn't a condi build, but a power build.

> > > >

> > >

> > > Yes, that invisible power build that can apply 5 stacks of bleeding while being so invisible, it doesnt even show up in the combat log. Yeah, no. See, here is what happens. They condi bomb me. I cleanse. They condi bomb me again. I cleanse again. They condi bomb me a third time. I cleanse a third time. Now Im out of condi cleanses, they bomb me *again* and Im dead. Against you what should happen is they condi bomb you, you cleanse, they condi bomb you again and you already die.

> >

> > So you stand in their AoEs? Dodge/block etc still works vs condi.

> >

>

> It *would*, if the majority of condi bombs werent either instant, pulsing AoEs, on-X effects that dont get consumed if you dodge/block or unblockables. Therein lies the issue though. They are. If condi damage was as avoidable as power damage, it would be far less of a problem, but sadly its not even remotely as avoidable.

 

It is, it's really easy to avoid most. You just don't seem to know our want to learn their tells.

 

> > > > > > > @"Gorani.7205" said:

> > > > > > > My subjective observations (running a Marauder Tempest for roaming & small scale fights with allies)

> > > > > > > I encounter power based one shot builds a lot less and do a lot better vs. power based builds, especially Thieves.

> > > > > > > I see a lot more condi based professions around, especially Rev/Herald and Necros. The number of condis they can dump on you compared to my cleanses makes them winners in fights that drag out. Losing some punch by CC skills not having a decent damage component seems to be as much a factor as power having lost its big spike potential.

> > > > > > > I have to admit, I don't run Runes/Sigils that remove condis, but the fact that this is strongly advised at the moment should be an indication of some Condi "supremacy" over Power specs.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > So you shouldn't have to run any condi clears?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Sigil of cleansing would be the strongest sigil even if condi dmg didn't exist, because immob exists (and the other debilitating conditions).

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Giving up a sigil is such an extremely tiny concession and cleansing does so much versus it, so tbh if you don't run cleansing and die to condi it's your own fault.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Power is still dominant. Like it's always been (or at least it has the entire time I played, which is since slightly pre-HoT)

> > > > >

> > > > > Yes, power is so dominant almost no roamer uses power, and the few that do are still outclassed by condi builds. Its so dominant the best roamers are Condi Rev, Burn Weaver, Burn Guard and various versions of condi necro.

> > > >

> > > > Lol, doubt it

> > >

> > > Doubt what, the easily observed fact that condi is far more prevalent?

> >

> > Well given that I've observed the opposite.

>

> Most people clearly havent, so you seem to be the outlier.

 

Do you have some magical power that allows you to poll "most people"?

 

No?

 

Anyway you seem uninterested in both improving and reasoning, gonna call it here, i tried but some cases are hopeless.

[UNOwen.7132]

> @"SpellOfIniquity.1780" said:

> A few things I want to add.

>

> Conditions are not often the killer in large scale, they secure the skill if a player has taken near lethal damage and still have Conditions on them after escaping a bomb.

>

 

Well yeah. Thats part of the problem with conditions. Theyre incredibly binary. If you have enough clears, theyre irrelevant, if you dont, you die. In large-scale, you have enough clears, the supports are there for that.

 

> "Tank" stats, eg. Dire/Trailblazer are not available in PvP the same as Minstrel or Nomad because PvP is centered on node combat with less players. It is far too easy for builds to use these stats to bunker a node without enough players to punish someone doing so. WvW takes place in an open field where the scale of a fight can expand near infinitely in a short span of time without nodes being an issue. Holding a Sentry or Supply camp hardly counts when doing so will often result in the player becoming heavily outnumbered anyway.

>

 

There are bunker amulets in sPvP. There are no *condi* bunker amulets because they would break condi builds. Even the ones we have break condi builds.

 

> PvP and WvW are completely different in many ways. PvP is essentially a condensed version of WvW with much, much shorter matches, much fewer players, completely different balance and completely different metas. There is no sense in comparing the two.

>

 

Partially true. In small scale, the metas are actually very similar. As are the problems.

 

> There are a handful of builds that can "burst" Conditions but first, that does not mean Conditions themselves are an issue nor does it mean certain stat combinations are, and second most of those "burst" type builds have extremely poor duration scaling anyway. A Thief in full Trailblazer still has very short durations on it's Conditions, it's all about the Steal -> Sneak attack spam because it's their only real source of heavy Condition application while still preserving options for survival. If you avoid the Steal or have a large cleanse ( eg. Elixir C ) their entire burst is negated and their only follow up is auto attacks and low cost secondary skills ( Bleeds, Immobilize, Poison ). Yes, some builds on certain professions could stand to see adjustments, Burn Guard/DH/FB is currently becoming problematic as it is strong both large scale and small, but again that does not mean knee capping things across the board.

>

 

Sadly, thats not the case. Burn Guardian, Condi Rev and Scourge all also have great duration scaling, they can just condi bombs as well. And no ,that doesnt mean condis or stat combinations are an issue, the fact that the damage is so much higher than power with lower investment in stats is what means its a problem.

 

> Lastly, Conditions are starting to solidify their place in small scale combat and are almost wholly ineffectively in large scale as they have been for a very long time. This means it will be easier for smaller groups to isolate and punish stragglers because certain class builds are more reliant on their group support to survive. WvW is becoming more diversified and balanced despite what many are claiming ( and will no matter the state of things because if it doesn't fit someone's ideals, it must be broken ).

>

 

Eh, in small scale its becoming less diverse, as condi builds are largely crowding out power builds that happen to not have access to several condi cleanses.

 

> A Sigil of Cleansing should be mandatory on one weapon set for anyone planning to roam or small scale. And of course it has value in large scale as well. A minimum of one Condition cleanse trait or utility should also always be taken the same way you would always take a stun break. If you are not using a stun break(s) and you get CC'd to death you blame yourself but if you have no/not enough cleanses and get condi'd to death, Conditions should be nerfed? Come prepared or blame yourself if you're not.

 

2 condi cleanses are not *nearly* enough. You need far more than a sigil of cleansing and, idk, lets say Transmute. If it was just 2 that was enough, itd be a different story. You need closer to 5. Well, to survive their initial onslaught, anyway.

 

Thats the problem though. Against power builds, youre not required to get protection. Or crit immunity. Or any other such thing. Theyre nice, you can pick them, but theyre not mandatory. But against condi, you have to have a dozen cleanses. And if your class just doesnt have condition cleanse? Well youre fucked. Thats just not good design.

[UNOwen.7132]

> @"pninak.1069" said:

> > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > @"pninak.1069" said:

> > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > > > @"pninak.1069" said:

> > > > > the idea that when you get attacked by a condi build with 1 skill you just die is absolutly false. condi has a long ramp up time and the condis on its own don't really do much dmg. you are far faster by bursting down the player. you forgot that they pretty much keep reducing stacks and changing it to a longer duration instead. so the overall cap you can reach with condi is far lower and also less bursty.

> > > >

> > > > I wish it was false, but sadly its the absolute truth. You are about 2 years out of date. Condi does not have a long ramp up time (unless you count <1 second as "long". Condis do *absurd* damage. A condi build will burst a power build *much* faster than vice versa, both due to having higher burst (like burn guard) and due to having much higher defensive stats. And yes, they have been doing that. It has failed to solve the issue. Burn guard still bursts you for 11k on the first tick (or more). Scourge puts enough condis on you for you to die in 2 ticks at the start of a fight. Just swapping legends on Condi Rev is enough to kill you.

> > >

> > > yea you are lying. it isn't that fast. also you forgot the dmg component of the attack. so you obviously don't know if you die due to condis or the dmg on top of the conditions. otherwise you wouldn't have glasscannon guardians still doing oneshots.

> >

> > It *literally* is. Burn guards burst is instant (literally), condi Revs legend Swap is instant (literally), and Scourges is like half a second. Thats not long at all. And no, I didnt. The power damage condi builds do is *extremely low*. If I take 11k damage from one tick of burning twice and like 1500 power damage, I can tell you for sure that I died to the burning. And I dont know if you know, but the only oneshot guardians are burn guardians, and theyre not glass cannons.

>

> no. you can suffer from burning and still take majority of dmg by raw dmg. just because you get into downstate when you got buring doesn't mean burning is the source of the dmg you have taken.

>

 

Hypotehtically, theoretically, there are, possibly situations where that may be true. In actuality, there arent. If youre hit for 11k burning burst ,that is what killed you, not power. End of story.

 

> what you are doing is a naive fallacy. you don't dive into the details of the situation. so I assume you are just kitten, because you can't just win while doing nothin takin all the dmg etc.

 

The details of the situation are "Burn guardian bursts you with an 11k burning tick twice. You die to burning".

[pninak.1069]

> @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > @"pninak.1069" said:

> > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > > @"pninak.1069" said:

> > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > > > > @"pninak.1069" said:

> > > > > > the idea that when you get attacked by a condi build with 1 skill you just die is absolutly false. condi has a long ramp up time and the condis on its own don't really do much dmg. you are far faster by bursting down the player. you forgot that they pretty much keep reducing stacks and changing it to a longer duration instead. so the overall cap you can reach with condi is far lower and also less bursty.

> > > > >

> > > > > I wish it was false, but sadly its the absolute truth. You are about 2 years out of date. Condi does not have a long ramp up time (unless you count <1 second as "long". Condis do *absurd* damage. A condi build will burst a power build *much* faster than vice versa, both due to having higher burst (like burn guard) and due to having much higher defensive stats. And yes, they have been doing that. It has failed to solve the issue. Burn guard still bursts you for 11k on the first tick (or more). Scourge puts enough condis on you for you to die in 2 ticks at the start of a fight. Just swapping legends on Condi Rev is enough to kill you.

> > > >

> > > > yea you are lying. it isn't that fast. also you forgot the dmg component of the attack. so you obviously don't know if you die due to condis or the dmg on top of the conditions. otherwise you wouldn't have glasscannon guardians still doing oneshots.

> > >

> > > It *literally* is. Burn guards burst is instant (literally), condi Revs legend Swap is instant (literally), and Scourges is like half a second. Thats not long at all. And no, I didnt. The power damage condi builds do is *extremely low*. If I take 11k damage from one tick of burning twice and like 1500 power damage, I can tell you for sure that I died to the burning. And I dont know if you know, but the only oneshot guardians are burn guardians, and theyre not glass cannons.

> >

> > no. you can suffer from burning and still take majority of dmg by raw dmg. just because you get into downstate when you got buring doesn't mean burning is the source of the dmg you have taken.

> >

>

> Hypotehtically, theoretically, there are, possibly situations where that may be true. In actuality, there arent. If youre hit for 11k burning burst ,that is what killed you, not power. End of story.

>

> > what you are doing is a naive fallacy. you don't dive into the details of the situation. so I assume you are just kitten, because you can't just win while doing nothin takin all the dmg etc.

>

> The details of the situation are "Burn guardian bursts you with an 11k burning tick twice. You die to burning".

 

there is no 11k burning tick. you just make stuff up. and with that I am done with this forum. I knew it was full of people you can't have a proper discussion with. you avoid all the people giving you vital info on how to combat condi builds, but blaming builds is easier.

[UNOwen.7132]

> @"lodjur.1284" said:

> > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > @"lodjur.1284" said:

> > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > > > @"lodjur.1284" said:

> > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > > > > > @"lodjur.1284" said:

> > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > > > > > > > @"lodjur.1284" said:

> > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @"lodjur.1284" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > @"lodjur.1284" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Dawdler.8521" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Condi Rev doesnt because they just want to do *even more damage*, and their survivability is fine even without defensive stats.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And other classes? You know the classes that have long since realized they need the sustain to be viable fighting power builds?

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > The problem is, you know who else realised that? *Power builds*. Difference is, they cant go full damage while going full defense at the same time. And, well, their survivability is fine. Take condi thief, or even Condi Mirage. Their survivability would be the *exact same* as the equivalent power build, if they had the same defensive stats. They just get to take a bunch of free tankiness ontop of that.

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > Condi thief and mirage are indeed problematic, the armor stats aren't the problems though.

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > It's the class design, even as condi they're highly mobile and bursty.

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > The only solution I can see is to force their condi weapons into hybrid ones, to the point where they need to run Viper/Grieving to achieve respectable damage, or completely gutting their power variants.

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > Removing trailblazer/dire (and apothecary and shaman and so on) would drastically reduce build diversity and leave thief and mirage (and a few other fringe options) as the only viable condi options, as they don't "need" trailblazer the same way that a non-bursty melee build does.

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > Tanky, melee, non-bursty condi builds should definitively exist and they need trailblazer.

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > Also condi revenant most definitively runs trailblazer and the only problematic parts of the build is

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > True Nature - Demon has 600 radius and is unavoidable (ignores evade, block and blind) and has the potential to "1-shot".

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > Infuse Light (dragon heal) is problematic as it's the kinda skill that really carries people, especially when already outnumbering.

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > This is why condi herald is hard to kill, not runes of Tormenting or trailblazer.

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > I wish Anet would implement something similar to ArcDPS dmg taken function in the core game so people could also see how rare it is that condition dmg is above 50% (or even above 30% for that matter).

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > Actually, theyre not problematic, theyre both probably on the weaker side, I just used them as examples because they tend to use the same survivability as their power counterparts. Anyway, removing Trailblazer would keep the builds still viable. Even removing Dire would, you still have Rabid. Anyway, tanky condi builds are fine so long as they do the exact same level of damage as tanky power builds, instead of 3 or 4 times as much. They dont need Trailblazer, just like Prot Holo doesnt need Paladins, or even Demolishers.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > They definitively are, though imo not more than their power variants.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Their power variants also arent problematic. In case of Mesmer, less so.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > They are.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Again, hardly. Power Mesmer and power thief both are burst builds that dont burst very well. Theyre not even very good.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Problematic =/= good

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Both are very strong 1v1 too so eh.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Ghost thief was never good, but it was definitively problematic.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Theyre both not great in 1v1s. Power Mesmer might be slightly better if he gets the drop on you. But fair enough on the problematic.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Rabid is not even close to the third best condi statcombo. It's maybe 6th best, if even that.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Hardly. There are others good if you got a bunch of healing, but most condi builds dont really have much.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > It's always about incoming dps vs incoming hps on condi builds that care about toughness in the first place

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > The point of Toughness is just to reduce power damage. Most condi builds also have ways of dealing with condis themselves.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Of course they do. Why wouldn't they?

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Even if there was no condi dmg at all, sigil of cleansing would still be the best sigil in the game just to clear immobilize/chill etc.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Which ... has nothing to do with Toughness being great on condi builds?

> > > > >

> > > > > "Most condi builds also have ways of dealing with condis themselves."

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > Thats ... still missing the point?

> > >

> > > Why did you say it then?

> > >

> > > > > > > > > > > There's plenty of tanky power builds that push out those levels of dmg,

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Not really. Power builds are either tanky, or do that much damage. Not both.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Warrior in zerker+durability for example is tankier than most trailblaze/dire builds.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Zerker Durability? Nah. But there is a Durability build that is about as tanky as Trailblazer/Dire builds. It also does a fraction of their damage.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Durability runes have been the go to for a very long time for warrior (and basically every other remotely tanky power build I guess)

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > They have been, but if you go Zerker Durability, youre not even half as tanky as a tanky condi build.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Between your various invulns/blocks/resistance etc, together with very high mobility, you very much are at least as tanky as a condi rev.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Warrior can only shrug off one type of damage at a time, or he is blocking. Problem is, while youre blocking, youre not doing damage. And if you want to do the same level of damage, youre not nearly as tanky, so your heals are less effective.

> > > > >

> > > > > But according to you power is nonexistent so...

> > > > >

> > > > > Also you can activate 2 stances at once, shocker I know.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > Power is rare, not non-existent. Yeah, they could use Berserker Stance. Sadly even that one is just pulsing Resistance, and that can be stripped or corrupted. It also doesnt last very long.

> > >

> > > You can't strip pulsing resistamce really. Berserker stance is very good.

> > >

> >

> > Permanently, no. But you can strip each of them and let the condis hit them for a tick. Or if youre Scourge you can just corrupt 4 times in a row. Thats also an option.

> >

> > > > > > > > > > > Scrapper is tanky in some mix of Marauder+zerk+durability and definitively does respectable damage

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > This one is pretty tanky. But its damage is, once again, a fraction of an equivalent tanky condi build.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > No it isn't, scrapper can do good dmg

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > It can do *decent* damage. But not even *remotely* in the ballpark of a condi build. With condi builds, youre looking at up to 10k burst damage, and sustained DPS of like 5k+ per second. On Scrapper, youre looking at half that, at *best*. Usually less. There is no comparision, Scrapper does only a fraction of the condi builds damage.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > If a scrapper is only doing half of a condi rev in the same situation they're flat out playing bad, or have a very bad scrapper build. Probably both.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > 5k per second lmao, talk about hyperbole. Assuming you mean single target, cause on AoE or just depends on the number of targets, more so than the skills used.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > It's rare that I get incoming dmg of over 2. 5k/sec vs power or condi in 1v1s. This while playing a build with low avoidance uptime, so the numbers are fairly reasonable.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Incorrect. Im starting to think you have never faced a condi rev if you seriously think *Scrapper* can do even remotely as much damage as they do. And given that you think 5k per second is hyperbole, rather than an *underestimation*, yeah you definitely havent. The build does 3k per second even through repeated cleanses, now imagine what happens if they dont have cleanse. No, Scrapper wont do even remotely as much damage. Theyre a great player, theyre playing the optimal scrapper build. Doesnt matter. They just dont have the damage, not even remotely.

> > > > >

> > > > > Flat out wrong, sorry. This is why people should have arcdps on...

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > It doesnt matter if you believe that its flat out wrong, fact is its not. Combat log suffices for testing that. Though, I asked someone who runs Scrapper to test it himself, even with your beloved arcdps. Exactly the same result (well, I say exactly, it was like 4.7k on the Condi rev). So yeah, even with your beloved arcdps, the fact doesnt change.

> > >

> > > To test their dmg vs a roughly equally good condi rev in the same group.

> > >

> >

> > Yes thaats what I did. Condi Rev did significantly higher damage.

> >

> > > > > > > > > > > There's a ton more tanky power builds with high dmg, but not gonna list all of them here.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > There are tanky builds that do a decent amount of damage. But accross all of them, you have the same issue. Theyre either less tanky, or do a fraction of the damage of the equivalent condi builds. Of course, Condi builds do have to contend with multiple condition cleanses, and they would *still* be superior.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > That's just incorrect. Warrior and scrapper for example are both very strong at the moment. Both are tanky power builds (that also have an extremely easy time dealing with condi).

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Theyre decent builds. But that doesnt change the fact that they are either less tanky, or do *much* less damage, than condi builds. They have other strengths, utility and CC, but damage wise, its just such a huge gap.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > The dmg gap isn't massive. They're comparable, obviously some condi builds have a little bit more sustained dmg as they lack burst (and therefore should have more sustained dmg).

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Its objectively massive. Even through repeated cleanses with things like Firebrand, condi builds outdamage power builds. Now imagine there is no firebrand. Way bigger. They dont have "a little" more sustained damage, they have easily twice as much, if not more, sustained damage. Sadly, they also do *not* lack burst. If anything, they actually burst better right now. A burn Guard can easily burst for 11k on the first tick of burning, with the second tick killing. And that burst is *instant*. Power? No such luck.

> > > > >

> > > > > No they don't.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > I dont know what to say here other than "yes, they do".

> > > >

> > > > > I don't have a pocket firebrand, I don't struggle with condi...

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > Because you appear to almost never fight condi builds, or only fight ones that are extremely terrible. You claim that you totally do fine against condi builds while only being able to clear 4 conditions. Given that the minimum amount of conditions you need to be able to clear to have a decent chance is somewhere around 10-15, thats not believable.

> > >

> > > I fight a normal amount of condi builds.

> > >

> > > 4 condis every 10 sec, I guess I also have 5 cleared on heal every 30 sec, but don't really need it that much.

> > >

> >

> > Yeah, thats completely insufficient. You need to be able to clear 3-4 conditions at least 3 times in 5 seconds. If your amount of cleanses are enough, they must not even be using their skills.

> >

> > > > > Burn guard has been mentioned, it definitively has too much burst. But this is also a ridiculous hyperbole, I haven't been ticked 11k burn ever I think, certainly not commonly and burnguards are common.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > Its not hyperbole at all. Ive been hit harder than that. A lot harder. 11k is just the most recent one Ive been hit by.

> > >

> > > Sounds like you need to avoid their hits more.

> > >

> >

> > Which part of "instant" do you think is avoidable? Its instant. Id have to be precognitiant to be able to avoid their damage. Im not.

> >

> > > > > > > > > > > I am actually in favor of demolisher existing in WvW, it would definitively see a lot of use.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Right now? It wouldnt. Its basically Marauders, but significantly worse against the currently overperforming condi builds.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > It definitively would, warrior would run at least a number of it.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Why would Warrior run it? There are hardly any Power builds around, and its a lot weaker against condi builds. There is legitimately *no* reason to drop Marauder for Demolishers.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Warrior shouldn't run Marauder atm, it's terrible. They already have like 22k hp with durability runes in pure zerk.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Demolisher would def be optimal to run a number of.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Of course it should run Marauder, its great. Yes, they already have a lot of health. But more health is better. And the optimal number of Demolishers is 0. Its worse than Marauder by a ***wide*** margin in this condi meta. Youre basically obtaining a stat that does literally nothing against the strongest, and most prevalent damage type. While only being very slightly better against the weaker damage type. Why do you think not a single power build runs even a single piece of toughness armour? Even *Diviner* is being run.

> > > > >

> > > > > Because there's no good power+toughness stat combos in WvW.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > Until the meta changes and Toughness on power builds becomes worth using, no power + toughness stat combo is "good".

> > >

> > > Well no matter the meta there simply is no good one. Demolisher doesn't exist in WvW. Cavalier sucks, knight sucks etc.

> > >

> >

> > Demolishers wouldnt be good either. Its not even good in PvP right now. Its all Zerkers or Marauders.

> >

> > > > > > > > > > > Paladin too, though I think it wouldn't be particularly used.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > It has a better chance, but probably not.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > No it doesn't.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > It does. It gives vitality, which is the best defensive stat right now. There is at least a case to be made over Marauders. There isnt for Demolishers.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Vitality makes you die slower, it doesn't make you survive, after roughly the 20-25k mark it's fairly pointless on most builds, toughness shifts the incoming dps vs hps in your favor.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Thats what surviving means. Its dying slower. And you would be (technically) right if power was prevalent and the stronger damage type. Its not, and its not. Against condi, instead of Vitality giving you 5000 extra EHP, Toughness gives you close to 0 EHP. In a meta where that damage type is far more powerful and prevalent, thats bad.

> > > > >

> > > > > Surviving =/= dying slower

> > > > >

> > > > > Necro dies slowly, yet lacks the ability to survive, since it's basically a hp pinata. See the difference?

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > Uh, are we just ignoring that Necro has heals and barrier? I guess we are. No, necro dies slowly and is great at surviving.

> > >

> > > Scourge has barrier.

> > >

> > > Necro can be unkillable 1v1 atm but just dies slowly in group fights when focused.

> > >

> >

> > Yeah. I guess we dont really have a good word for the shroud pseudo-health stuff. But its also there. And yes, of course it dies slowly when focused. Professions die when focused. Dying slowly is already great.

> >

> > > > > Hyperbole and incorrect again.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > Not hyperbole, and entirely correct Im afraid. Toughness against condi builds only reduces power damage, which is almost none of their damage. Hence it increases your EHP by basically 0. And Condi builds are far more powerful and prevalent, thats why 80+% of roamers you see are condi.

> > >

> > > But if toughness is useless... Shouldn't condi builds run plaguedoctor instead....

> > >

> >

> > Healing Power and Concentration arent great stats. Sides, its not that Toughness is useless, just that its not that good when condi is the dominant form of damage. But condi builds already tend to have their own anti-condi measures. Might as well cover the bases for the rare burst power builds.

> >

> > > > > > > > > > > As far as I am concerned we should just be able to "create" or own stat combinations following the current rules. (ie 4 stat gives 10% more than 3 stat, with 2 big and 2 small stats etc.)

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > That would certainly break condi even more. Until it gets a rework (Which it does need badly), we shouldnt do anything like that.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > As condi I almost have my perfect stat combinations though. The ones I could create with such a system would be marginal improvements.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > For power, there is no improvement at all. We pretty much have the most optimal combination, its sadly not a tanky one. We cant afford to play the tanky builds.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Marauder but with big ferocity instead of precision (and small precision) would see a lot of use, especially in combination with Marauder to max out effective power.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Marauder but with healing power instead of vit would see some use, it would be especially strong vs condi.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Just 2 power stat combos of the top of my head, I am sure there's a lot more that would see some use.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > The first wouldnt, given that the builds that completely max out on precision already have better stats to go for. The latter also wouldnt. Avatar stats exist (swapping ferocity for healing power instead), and its completely unused. For regular power builds healing power just isnt good enough. For bunker builds, they have better options.

> > > > >

> > > > > Power reaper would use marauder with big fero and small preci in some numbers as max hp scales well with shroud.

> > > > >

> > > > > Avatar isn't even similar, it has no ferocity and is in sPvP a very different environment.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > Oh, right, Avatar is PvP only. I couldve sworn it was a PvE prefix. And Power Reaper wouldnt, at least anymore. In a meta as dominated by condition builds and with as many condition cleanses as this one, well Decimate Defenses becomes rather ineffective. You cant rely on it anymore, so you need crit chance for the big ferocity payoff.

> > >

> > > You still get 33% from death perception. Decimate was never good tbh.

> > >

> > > One would have to do the math to see if it gives more effective power than marauder and at what point, probably depends on if you can reliably get fury, but I am too lazy to do the math on that.

> > >

> >

> > Yeah but that 33% alone isnt enough. And nah, Decimate was good before, it let the Reaper be tanky while doing decent damage.

>

> No.

>

 

You may not like that all of that is true. But sadly, for you at least, all of that is absolutely true.

 

> > > > > > > > > > > > I mean, that would not say much given that it depends on who youre facing, how often, and so on. But I can tell you this, every time I look through my combat log after roaming around in WvW for a couple hours, its almost entirely condition damage.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > "Look through combat log"

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Use arcdps. The combat log is trash.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > The combat log perfectly represents the damage youve taken. Arcdps only makes it easier to read, but has issues with how it counts damage.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > It doesn't have any issues.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > I look through logs after every evening of smallscale WvW and also shortly after each fight. With an average group size of 3 (sometimes 2, rarely 4).

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > I extremely rarely take more than 30% condi dmg. Much less 50%

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > If youre playing with a group, odds are you have AoE condi cleanses. Perhaps even once you dont notice.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > I actually would, because I know the build of everyone I play with.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > I know that a tempest isn't gonna throw me any clears, cause the only group clears it has is 1 clear on the shout heal and overload water, which is used very sparsely.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > I know that the other dps in my group doesn't actually have any AoE clears.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Even so I can look at logs and conclude that I usually get about 1 clear/30 sec from others, hardly a massive amount.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Water Overload clears 4 conditions. I also cant imagine they wouldnt be running the water traitline which adds some more clears. But, if what you say is true, then youre just extremely lucky with your enemies. Especially because if what you say is true, a single Condition Revenant should rip and tear through your entire team.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Water doesn't actually give much clear of you take powerful aura. Especially if you also take soothing disruption, which the tempest in question does.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > As I said in most fights it averages out to 1 clear/25-35 sec.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Overload water isn't exactly something you can spam when outnumbered since you will just get CCed get water on 20 sec cd and die.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Also we just cc and kill the condi revs before they do.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Condi rev is also weak to power so you shouldn't really struggle with them.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Condi rev is not weak to power. At *all*. Also if youre outnumbering to the point where you can CC and kill the condi rev without him fighting back, sure. But then you can do the exact same thing with every single build in the game, and you should be taking absolutely 0 damage. And even then Im gonna have to doubt it, because just Invoke Torment + Embrace the Darkness would still be ticking and completely obliterate your team with your lack of cleanses ensuring your untimely demise.

> > > > >

> > > > > Well invoke torment is a whole 1 stack of torment

> > > > >

> > > > > EtD is 1 stack /sec, 3 if they can consistently use skills. Hardly anything that anyone with healing and reasonable clears would die to.

> > > > >

> > > > > It's also all 240 radius, just don't stand on it.

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Sigil of cleansing isn't lack of clears lmao.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > 1 stack of burning, poison and Torment instantly. Or that would be it. But then you also get Torment from Call of the Demon. Oh but then you also get 3 poison from Doom ontop of that. And probably another 2 stacks of torment from Sigil of Torment. Suddenly that turns from not that noticable to a major problem, doesnt it. And thats just one button. 240 is also a pretty big radius, and you want to CC them, remember? Yes, Sigil of Cleansing alone is a lack of clears in a meta where you need to be able to cleanse 10-15 conditions to survive.

> > >

> > > Olay so they run doom+torment and no permeating pestilence.

> > >

> > > So they have no clears at all in their build except for true nature Demon, that sounds like a bad rev build.

> > >

> > > The little resistance from Demon is def not enough to not just get immobilized to death in every fight for them.

> > >

> > > Also 240 is tiny, invoke torment also has an animation.

> > >

> >

> > Ignoring that they have a ton of resistance, that they have *2* weaponsets so more Sigils, Hardening Persistence ontop of Infuse Light and True Nature demon, sure. And no, its more than enough. 240 is almost the distance of a full dodge. It does have an animation, but the conditions are applied on the first frame, the animation is just there to signify that you were hit.

>

> The animation is them legend swapping, invoke is 1 sec after.

>

 

Ah, looks like youre half-right. Its half a second after the legend is swapped. Sadly, the animation is also delayed. By the time you see it, youre already hit.

 

> > > > > > > > > > > The times I do are:

> > > > > > > > > > > 1v1 with condi builds (lol)

> > > > > > > > > > > Eating a big transfer from transfer herald

> > > > > > > > > > > The time I get stuck in SoJ

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > My support essentially has no group clears (WET tempest with powerful aura and no trooper runes, usually does roughly 10% of my clears according to logs) and I mostly just have sigil of cleansing as my clears, so hardly overloading on anti-condi stuff.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > This is with permanent protection as well so I "should" be taking more condi dmg than power.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Then perhaps you just got extremely lucky. Its *very* rare for me to take more power than condi damage. Obviously, most roamers I meet are condi because its better, and they do more damage, because its better. And keep in mind, Im playing Core Engineer with Elixir C and its *still* not enough.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > I got extremely "lucky" in almost every fight, every evening since the patch across a multitude of various matchups.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Sounds very likely.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > About as likely as being able to survive a condi rev with just Sigil of Cleansing. Which is to say, not possible. Ergo, you mustve been able to avoid Condi Revs entirely. Because if you actually faced one, you would get condi bombed, use Sigil of cleansing, get condi bombed *again* and die in 2 seconds. Given that, it means that if youre not taking that much condi damage, you just arent facing condi builds. Simple as that.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Have you tried combining cleansing with dodging key skills, counterpressuring, stunning them etc?

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Yes? Do you think that works, though? Because their "key skills" are pulsing AoEs, instant AoEs and other undodgable things. If just CCing was enough to kill them, it would be enough to kill anyone. Counterpressuring would work if any attempt to pressure them doesnt also get me killed, and way faster than they are.

> > > > >

> > > > > Assuming you're talking about condi rev still.

> > > > >

> > > > > Pulsing AoEs can be moved out of.

> > > > >

> > > > > Mace 3 on rev is the key pressure skill they have, it is very telegraphed.

> > > > > CtA is also very telegraphed.

> > > > > Searing fissure too.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > Not if you want to pressure them. Well, even then moving out is rather hard on a class that also happens to constantly chill you while youre severely lacking in condi clears. And sure, the others are reasonably telegraphed, but they come after youre already screwed.

> > >

> > > So they're somehow constantly chilling you while keeping EtD up, that's not possible energywise, if try to do it dodge and laugh at them as they're out of energy.

> > >

> >

> > Revenants have this neat little trick where swapping weapons or legends fully refreshes their energy. They also run Hydromancy.

>

> They run hydromancy, torment and doom, all on the same bar, neat

>

> How?

>

 

They can weaponswap? Doom and Torment is on their main weaponset, i.e. mace/axe. Hydromancy is on their other weaponset. That also has chilling isolation.

 

> > > > > > > > > I wish I was fighting more condi then I could just equip one of the many extremely strong counters and take vastly less dmg than I do now.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > You do realize that clears aren't supposed to make you immune right, just delay your death. So that you can kill them before they kill you. Of you frequently struggle it's either a player error or your build should run more clears.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Thats the theory. In actuality, the way it works out is that you try to delay your death 4 or 5 times, and then die anyway because even with an abundance of condi clears, the enemy build is both much tankier and does a metric crapton more damage than you do. To put it bluntly, my build cannot run any more condi clears. Its literally maxed out on them. Including several that clear the entire condi bomb. And guess what? Its *still* nowhere close enough.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Then you're not pressuring them back

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Nope, I am. But even when pressuring them, they still kill you faster than you kill them. Any attempt to hit them makes them able to hit you. Its not a trade you win.

> > > > >

> > > > > Then kite them, they're slow, you're core engi iirc, you're not exactly made to be able to beat them at facetanking and bashing each in melee but you have plenty of other advantages.

> > > > >

> > > > > Depending of course on your build, I also don't know how strong your build is overall obviously.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > Sadly, theyre not slow at all. Their build can access perma swiftness, has a number of dashes, and applies chill from afar with ease. They will catch up to you. Kiting is a nice idea, but a complete non-starter.

> > >

> > > No. They're very slow compared to most builds that would need to kite them.

> > >

> >

> > Theyre faster than my engineer. Perma-swiftness, boon removal to stop mine, chill, and even a couple dashes. There isnt any way for me to "kite" them. In fact, Im pretty sure the *only* build that can kite them is Longbow Ranger. *If* the Revenant doesnt dodge knockback shot. If he does then eve nthey cant.

>

> Ranger can very easily kite Rev of they run Longbow....

>

> Anyway, you seem very uninterested in how things are and more interested in some crusade

>

 

*If* they hit Knockback shot. Or Point Blank Shot. Whatever. If they dont, then they will be moving so much slower than the Rev while trying to kite that the rev will catch up in just a short frame of time.

 

No, Im quite interested in how things are. Im also annoyed that you seem not to be interested in how things are, but how you want them to be.

 

> > > > > > >and ccing them,

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Nope. I am CC-ing them. Sadly, thats not a magical fix-all method. There is this concept called "stunbreak". It allows for the Revenant to break out of stuns, or other CC. They further have another tool called "stability", it prevents the next CC.

> > > > >

> > > > > Well I guess you never actually played condi rev, the stunbreaks and stab sources are awful.

> > > > >

> > > > > CC is highly effective against condi rev.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > Clearly you havent. They have 2 stunbreaks and up to 2 sources of stability. Thats actually not that little. I dont know about your build, but mine doesnt have 4 sources of hard CC back to back to back. Ive got 2 and thats already on the higher end. I could get 3, but even that isnt enough.

> > >

> > > Let's assume herald dragon+Demon

> > >

> > > Their source of stab is only on stunbreak (if they even run it)

> > >

> > > Demon stunbreak is atrociously bad

> > >

> > > Dragon has one on a long cd.

> > >

> >

> > Of course they run it. But 5 seconds of stability is a long time, and I have no way to survive that long against them. Demon Stunbreak is still a stunbreak. Great or not, it does the job. Long CD doesnt matter, Ill not get to survive until my stuns are back up (theyre also long cd btw).

>

> The trait is 2 sec

>

 

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Glaring_Resolve

Nope, its 5. Unless you meant another one that also gives stability? Im not aware of another one though, and this is the one Condi Revs use.

 

> > > > > > >you could just be playing worse than they are, or your build might lack pressure.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Nope, and nope. My build has plenty of pressure, but of course, its not a condi build, especially not condi rev, so it has less. Im playing as well as you can, but its just not winnable.

> > > > >

> > > > > I doubt you're playing "as well as it's possible"

> > > > >

> > > > > Cause it sounds like they're pressuring you more effectively than you pressure them.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > Yes. That doesnt preclude playing as well as possible. Of course they pressure me more effectively. They do several times my damage and have several times my survivability. It would be rather incredibly if despite those handicaps I could somehow outpressure them. But its not possible. Not without them sucking.

> > >

> > > You're not tho, there is not a single player who plays "as well as possible"

> > >

> > > Could also be your build just being weak.

> > >

> >

> > Let me put it this way: no improvement you could make could make the fight winnable. Not unless that improvement includes "partnering up with a Firebrand". And eh, my build isnt top tier meta, but the others dont perform much better either. Remember, Condi Rev was hilariously dominant in sPvPs 2v2 mode despite Firebrand being in nearly every match. Condi builds in sPvP dont have good stat sets to work with in WvW while power ones do. They also have worse runes and sigils. And it *still* dominated through dozens of cleanses.

>

> Maybe your build is countered by condi rev, I haven't seen your build or seen you play so hard to say really. I know I don't struggle more with condi than against anything else (less even)

>

 

If my build is countered by condi rev, than anything that isnt firebrand or prot holo is. My build is as close to maximum condi cleanses as you can get. And yes, you keep saying that, but you also keep saying that you can only cleanse 4 condis and somehow thats enough against a build that can apply up to 9 condis including cover condis, can condi bomb several times in quick succession every single one of which is lethal and has 4 different damaging condis ticking at you. Somehow it seems you just dont face any condi revs that even know the basics of playing their class. Because they should shred through you as you woefully lack condi clears.

 

> sPvP has 0 bearing on WvW

>

 

Not entirely. Its a good mirror, as small scale WvW and sPvP are extremely similar.

 

> The most powerful counters don't even exist there.

>

 

Firebrand does exist in sPvP. As do things like Elixir C.

 

> Nor does the most powerful condi options.

>

 

This part is true.

 

> The most powerful power options also don't exist there.

>

 

This part, is not. Well, depends on how you define it. But sPvP has Marauders. It has all the sigils you would use.

 

> It's a completely different balance.

>

> > > > > > > > > I somehow don't struggle with sigil of cleansing being about 75% of my clears.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Which simply means you arent facing condi builds. If you did, you would simply lose instantly because Sigil of Cleansing is about 15 condis cleansed too little.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I fight them quite frequently, transfer heralds specifically are very common and people like to bust them out to try to kill you with true nature Demon alone. Not as often as power builds though.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I of course like anyone every now and then have fights where condi dmg is the bulk of what kills me, but they're fairly rare.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Both dmg types would have the possibility of killing enemies, so that I every now and then die to mostly condi is fairly natural. The fact remains that it's far less common than how often power is the bulk of the dmg I take.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > You claim that, with Sigil of Cleansing, you totally dont struggle with them. That is impossible. If you are fighting them, relying on Cleansing Sigil, you should be dying instantly unless they are *terrible*. Given that, and given that you claim that, even with sigil of cleansing and toughness, you take less damage from power, despite the fact that accross my last couple weeks of roaming roughly 80% of roamers I encountered were condi, means that you are just not facing condi builds.

> > > > >

> > > > > Well "terrible" is a matter of perspective I guess.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > I dont know what perspective you could have where "failing to destroy someone who has about 10 cleanses too little to survive your damage" is anything but terrible.

> > >

> > > Could also have to do with how one uses their clears you know, and how much of the condis you just facetank for no reason.

> > >

> > > > > I am fairly certain you're lying or unable to realize that just cause you have 5 stacks of bleeding on you, odds are what put them there isn't a condi build, but a power build.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > Yes, that invisible power build that can apply 5 stacks of bleeding while being so invisible, it doesnt even show up in the combat log. Yeah, no. See, here is what happens. They condi bomb me. I cleanse. They condi bomb me again. I cleanse again. They condi bomb me a third time. I cleanse a third time. Now Im out of condi cleanses, they bomb me *again* and Im dead. Against you what should happen is they condi bomb you, you cleanse, they condi bomb you again and you already die.

> > >

> > > So you stand in their AoEs? Dodge/block etc still works vs condi.

> > >

> >

> > It *would*, if the majority of condi bombs werent either instant, pulsing AoEs, on-X effects that dont get consumed if you dodge/block or unblockables. Therein lies the issue though. They are. If condi damage was as avoidable as power damage, it would be far less of a problem, but sadly its not even remotely as avoidable.

>

> It is, it's really easy to avoid most. You just don't seem to know our want to learn their tells.

>

 

Its not. Their "tells" dont exist. In fact, because this is annoying me, lets go through them to show you in excruciating detail how wrong you are.. So here is an example of a burn guardian condi bomb: Judges Intervention. Tell: None. Its an instant skill. Zealot's Flame. Tell: None, its an instant skill. Radiant Fire. Tell: None, its triggered by the instant skill. Virtue of Justice. Tell: None, its triggered by the instant skill. There we go. An entire condi bomb. 0 tells. Its all instant.

 

How about another one? Condi Rev. Legend Swap into invoke X. Lets put it short. What tells exist? Well, in theory, the animation from the legend swap. Except, the animation appears just after youve been hit. Your only bet is looking at their hotbar the entire time and watching out for the changing icon for their legend. Which requires you to have them targetted and requires you intensely stare at a tiny picture.

 

What about Condi Scourge? Well, finally we do have a tell. Kind of. Manifest Sand Shade does have a delay, and you can see it coming. The problem is the same cant be said for most of their boon corruption, and if youre fear youre still screwed. Oh and they can just Garish Pillar you (no tell, instant) and then manifest sand shade under you. At which point ,same as before.

 

So please, do tell me what nonexistent "tells" Im supposed to "learn".

 

> > > > > > > > @"Gorani.7205" said:

> > > > > > > > My subjective observations (running a Marauder Tempest for roaming & small scale fights with allies)

> > > > > > > > I encounter power based one shot builds a lot less and do a lot better vs. power based builds, especially Thieves.

> > > > > > > > I see a lot more condi based professions around, especially Rev/Herald and Necros. The number of condis they can dump on you compared to my cleanses makes them winners in fights that drag out. Losing some punch by CC skills not having a decent damage component seems to be as much a factor as power having lost its big spike potential.

> > > > > > > > I have to admit, I don't run Runes/Sigils that remove condis, but the fact that this is strongly advised at the moment should be an indication of some Condi "supremacy" over Power specs.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > So you shouldn't have to run any condi clears?

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Sigil of cleansing would be the strongest sigil even if condi dmg didn't exist, because immob exists (and the other debilitating conditions).

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Giving up a sigil is such an extremely tiny concession and cleansing does so much versus it, so tbh if you don't run cleansing and die to condi it's your own fault.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Power is still dominant. Like it's always been (or at least it has the entire time I played, which is since slightly pre-HoT)

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Yes, power is so dominant almost no roamer uses power, and the few that do are still outclassed by condi builds. Its so dominant the best roamers are Condi Rev, Burn Weaver, Burn Guard and various versions of condi necro.

> > > > >

> > > > > Lol, doubt it

> > > >

> > > > Doubt what, the easily observed fact that condi is far more prevalent?

> > >

> > > Well given that I've observed the opposite.

> >

> > Most people clearly havent, so you seem to be the outlier.

>

> Do you have some magical power that allows you to poll "most people"?

>

> No?

>

> Anyway you seem uninterested in both improving and reasoning, gonna call it here, i tried but some cases are hopeless.

 

Im interested in improving. But Im not oblivious enough to think improving will magically fix unfixable problems. And Im afraid the only one uninterested in reasoning is you, given that you just brush off everything that doesnt fit into your view of how things are, and still fail to explain how you paradoxically have absolutely no issues with condi revs while also having far fewer condi cleanses than neccessary. Or you know, argue that condi bombs totally have tells.

[UNOwen.7132]

> @"pninak.1069" said:

> > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > @"pninak.1069" said:

> > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > > > @"pninak.1069" said:

> > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > > > > > @"pninak.1069" said:

> > > > > > > the idea that when you get attacked by a condi build with 1 skill you just die is absolutly false. condi has a long ramp up time and the condis on its own don't really do much dmg. you are far faster by bursting down the player. you forgot that they pretty much keep reducing stacks and changing it to a longer duration instead. so the overall cap you can reach with condi is far lower and also less bursty.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I wish it was false, but sadly its the absolute truth. You are about 2 years out of date. Condi does not have a long ramp up time (unless you count <1 second as "long". Condis do *absurd* damage. A condi build will burst a power build *much* faster than vice versa, both due to having higher burst (like burn guard) and due to having much higher defensive stats. And yes, they have been doing that. It has failed to solve the issue. Burn guard still bursts you for 11k on the first tick (or more). Scourge puts enough condis on you for you to die in 2 ticks at the start of a fight. Just swapping legends on Condi Rev is enough to kill you.

> > > > >

> > > > > yea you are lying. it isn't that fast. also you forgot the dmg component of the attack. so you obviously don't know if you die due to condis or the dmg on top of the conditions. otherwise you wouldn't have glasscannon guardians still doing oneshots.

> > > >

> > > > It *literally* is. Burn guards burst is instant (literally), condi Revs legend Swap is instant (literally), and Scourges is like half a second. Thats not long at all. And no, I didnt. The power damage condi builds do is *extremely low*. If I take 11k damage from one tick of burning twice and like 1500 power damage, I can tell you for sure that I died to the burning. And I dont know if you know, but the only oneshot guardians are burn guardians, and theyre not glass cannons.

> > >

> > > no. you can suffer from burning and still take majority of dmg by raw dmg. just because you get into downstate when you got buring doesn't mean burning is the source of the dmg you have taken.

> > >

> >

> > Hypotehtically, theoretically, there are, possibly situations where that may be true. In actuality, there arent. If youre hit for 11k burning burst ,that is what killed you, not power. End of story.

> >

> > > what you are doing is a naive fallacy. you don't dive into the details of the situation. so I assume you are just kitten, because you can't just win while doing nothin takin all the dmg etc.

> >

> > The details of the situation are "Burn guardian bursts you with an 11k burning tick twice. You die to burning".

>

> there is no 11k burning tick. you just make stuff up. and with that I am done with this forum. I knew it was full of people you can't have a proper discussion with. you avoid all the people giving you vital info on how to combat condi builds, but blaming builds is easier.

 

Of course there is an 11k burning tick. I got hit by that *today*. Ive been hit by higher damage ticks before, this is just the number I used because it happened *today*. Just because you dont like that its possible doesnt mean its not possible. And mate, your "vital info" was things like "react to tells that dont exist" "cc them and hope they dont have the stunbreaks and stability they have" "just use condi cleanses even though these builds are designed to be able to handle facing Firebrand and as such no single build can have enough condi cleanses to deal with them". Or in simpler terms ,they were all rubbish. They dont help. Because there is no way of solving the issue. Condi is severely overperforming. Power builds are at a massive disadvantage. If youre facing a condi rev and youre not a condi build, or Firebrand, then if theyre not bad, you just lose. Its as simple as that.

 

If there is anyone you cant have a proper discussion with, its someone who denies anything that goes against what they want to be true, suggests things that arent possible and is angry when people dismiss it.

[UNOwen.7132]

This didnt quite work out, take 2.

[UNOwen.7132]

@"lodjur.1284"

 

Oh, of course, I finally get it. You *play* condi rev. No wonder other condi revs or condi builds arent doing that much damage to you, youre using resistance and condi-transfers. And of course youre dismissive of Condi revs major damage advantage and general overpoweredness, overplay their weaknesses and underplay their strengths. You dont want it to be nerfed. I really dont know why I didnt catch it as soon as you said "5 conditions removed every 30 seconds". Yeah that basically puts everything into a new, highly questionable perspective.

 

[pninak.1069]

> @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > @"pninak.1069" said:

> > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > > @"pninak.1069" said:

> > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > > > > @"pninak.1069" said:

> > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > > > > > > @"pninak.1069" said:

> > > > > > > > the idea that when you get attacked by a condi build with 1 skill you just die is absolutly false. condi has a long ramp up time and the condis on its own don't really do much dmg. you are far faster by bursting down the player. you forgot that they pretty much keep reducing stacks and changing it to a longer duration instead. so the overall cap you can reach with condi is far lower and also less bursty.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I wish it was false, but sadly its the absolute truth. You are about 2 years out of date. Condi does not have a long ramp up time (unless you count <1 second as "long". Condis do *absurd* damage. A condi build will burst a power build *much* faster than vice versa, both due to having higher burst (like burn guard) and due to having much higher defensive stats. And yes, they have been doing that. It has failed to solve the issue. Burn guard still bursts you for 11k on the first tick (or more). Scourge puts enough condis on you for you to die in 2 ticks at the start of a fight. Just swapping legends on Condi Rev is enough to kill you.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > yea you are lying. it isn't that fast. also you forgot the dmg component of the attack. so you obviously don't know if you die due to condis or the dmg on top of the conditions. otherwise you wouldn't have glasscannon guardians still doing oneshots.

> > > > >

> > > > > It *literally* is. Burn guards burst is instant (literally), condi Revs legend Swap is instant (literally), and Scourges is like half a second. Thats not long at all. And no, I didnt. The power damage condi builds do is *extremely low*. If I take 11k damage from one tick of burning twice and like 1500 power damage, I can tell you for sure that I died to the burning. And I dont know if you know, but the only oneshot guardians are burn guardians, and theyre not glass cannons.

> > > >

> > > > no. you can suffer from burning and still take majority of dmg by raw dmg. just because you get into downstate when you got buring doesn't mean burning is the source of the dmg you have taken.

> > > >

> > >

> > > Hypotehtically, theoretically, there are, possibly situations where that may be true. In actuality, there arent. If youre hit for 11k burning burst ,that is what killed you, not power. End of story.

> > >

> > > > what you are doing is a naive fallacy. you don't dive into the details of the situation. so I assume you are just kitten, because you can't just win while doing nothin takin all the dmg etc.

> > >

> > > The details of the situation are "Burn guardian bursts you with an 11k burning tick twice. You die to burning".

> >

> > there is no 11k burning tick. you just make stuff up. and with that I am done with this forum. I knew it was full of people you can't have a proper discussion with. you avoid all the people giving you vital info on how to combat condi builds, but blaming builds is easier.

>

> Of course there is an 11k burning tick. I got hit by that *today*. Ive been hit by higher damage ticks before, this is just the number I used because it happened *today*. Just because you dont like that its possible doesnt mean its not possible. And mate, your "vital info" was things like "react to tells that dont exist" "cc them and hope they dont have the stunbreaks and stability they have" "just use condi cleanses even though these builds are designed to be able to handle facing Firebrand and as such no single build can have enough condi cleanses to deal with them". Or in simpler terms ,they were all rubbish. They dont help. Because there is no way of solving the issue. Condi is severely overperforming. Power builds are at a massive disadvantage. If youre facing a condi rev and youre not a condi build, or Firebrand, then if theyre not bad, you just lose. Its as simple as that.

>

> If there is anyone you cant have a proper discussion with, its someone who denies anything that goes against what they want to be true, suggests things that arent possible and is angry when people dismiss it.

 

you keep ignoring tips people have suggested. from what you have said I gathered that you propably rely on zerker stats alone got a heathpool of 11k and wonder why you get countered by condi builds when you got no condi cleanses or traits to actually shorten the time of them taking effect.

[UNOwen.7132]

> @"pninak.1069" said:

> > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > @"pninak.1069" said:

> > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > > > @"pninak.1069" said:

> > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > > > > > @"pninak.1069" said:

> > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > > > > > > > @"pninak.1069" said:

> > > > > > > > > the idea that when you get attacked by a condi build with 1 skill you just die is absolutly false. condi has a long ramp up time and the condis on its own don't really do much dmg. you are far faster by bursting down the player. you forgot that they pretty much keep reducing stacks and changing it to a longer duration instead. so the overall cap you can reach with condi is far lower and also less bursty.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > I wish it was false, but sadly its the absolute truth. You are about 2 years out of date. Condi does not have a long ramp up time (unless you count <1 second as "long". Condis do *absurd* damage. A condi build will burst a power build *much* faster than vice versa, both due to having higher burst (like burn guard) and due to having much higher defensive stats. And yes, they have been doing that. It has failed to solve the issue. Burn guard still bursts you for 11k on the first tick (or more). Scourge puts enough condis on you for you to die in 2 ticks at the start of a fight. Just swapping legends on Condi Rev is enough to kill you.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > yea you are lying. it isn't that fast. also you forgot the dmg component of the attack. so you obviously don't know if you die due to condis or the dmg on top of the conditions. otherwise you wouldn't have glasscannon guardians still doing oneshots.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > It *literally* is. Burn guards burst is instant (literally), condi Revs legend Swap is instant (literally), and Scourges is like half a second. Thats not long at all. And no, I didnt. The power damage condi builds do is *extremely low*. If I take 11k damage from one tick of burning twice and like 1500 power damage, I can tell you for sure that I died to the burning. And I dont know if you know, but the only oneshot guardians are burn guardians, and theyre not glass cannons.

> > > > >

> > > > > no. you can suffer from burning and still take majority of dmg by raw dmg. just because you get into downstate when you got buring doesn't mean burning is the source of the dmg you have taken.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > Hypotehtically, theoretically, there are, possibly situations where that may be true. In actuality, there arent. If youre hit for 11k burning burst ,that is what killed you, not power. End of story.

> > > >

> > > > > what you are doing is a naive fallacy. you don't dive into the details of the situation. so I assume you are just kitten, because you can't just win while doing nothin takin all the dmg etc.

> > > >

> > > > The details of the situation are "Burn guardian bursts you with an 11k burning tick twice. You die to burning".

> > >

> > > there is no 11k burning tick. you just make stuff up. and with that I am done with this forum. I knew it was full of people you can't have a proper discussion with. you avoid all the people giving you vital info on how to combat condi builds, but blaming builds is easier.

> >

> > Of course there is an 11k burning tick. I got hit by that *today*. Ive been hit by higher damage ticks before, this is just the number I used because it happened *today*. Just because you dont like that its possible doesnt mean its not possible. And mate, your "vital info" was things like "react to tells that dont exist" "cc them and hope they dont have the stunbreaks and stability they have" "just use condi cleanses even though these builds are designed to be able to handle facing Firebrand and as such no single build can have enough condi cleanses to deal with them". Or in simpler terms ,they were all rubbish. They dont help. Because there is no way of solving the issue. Condi is severely overperforming. Power builds are at a massive disadvantage. If youre facing a condi rev and youre not a condi build, or Firebrand, then if theyre not bad, you just lose. Its as simple as that.

> >

> > If there is anyone you cant have a proper discussion with, its someone who denies anything that goes against what they want to be true, suggests things that arent possible and is angry when people dismiss it.

>

> you keep ignoring tips people have suggested. from what you have said I gathered that you propably rely on zerker stats alone got a heathpool of 11k and wonder why you get countered by condi builds when you got no condi cleanses or traits to actually shorten the time of them taking effect.

 

I just explained how those "tips" are simply conceptually wrong. As is every single word that follows. Im on Marauders. Obviously, you cant run Zerkers in WvW. I run as many condi cleanses as possible. Just to ensure there is no ambiguity "as many as possible" in this case means 2 condis cleared from Transmute, 3 from Sigil of Cleansing, 13 from elixir C, 2 from Toss Elixir C, 2 from Cleansing Burst. Now, technically I could also add on elixir gun for another 2 cleansed, but then I would have no stunbreak, so thats not a real option.