Supreme.3164

> @"darren.1064" said:

> > @"ArthurDent.9538" said:

> > After finally getting around to watching MaT's from yesterday when i see thieves on 7 out of 8 semi finalist teams and every single team in the finals across both regions with a mixture of both power and condi builds, I'm inclined to say the original premise of this thread is a load of nonsense that has gone on way too long.

>

> How many times did you see a thief win a 1v1?

You want to duel like other professions, so have their sustain/tankiness and still have the mobility/stealth abilities of a ninja...where are exactly the weaknesses here?

> @"darren.1064" said:

> > @"Supreme.3164" said:

> > > @"darren.1064" said:

> > > > @"Captain Kuro.8937" said:

> > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > > > > @"Captain Kuro.8937" said:

> > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > > > > > > @"Captain Kuro.8937" said:

> > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > > > > > > > > @"Captain Kuro.8937" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > @"Captain Kuro.8937" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > you guys realize that burnfall is not attacking your main right? hes not saying its OP or that it needs to be nerfed, he just says its toxic and its true

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > He says both. By bringing up irrelevant videos that are a) from the wrong gamemode, b) several years out of date or c), both. He is infamous for his tendency to write long essays that contain nothing of substance, being biased to a hilarious degree (he always defends necro even when its über-broken, but doesnt stop calling for thief nerfs even when thief is in the gutter), and posting videos so irrelevant and out of place its just jarring.

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > In the other hand he might say , that specific spec existed since launch . People where fixated about what the streamers are using atm .

> > > > > > > > > > > > While some other like those French teams , thought outside the box and used that WvWvW spec

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Every combination of weapons has existed since launch. Doesnt mean that they were good, nor that they were unchanged. In case of P/D, neither is the case. It wasnt a good weaponset for a very long time, and it saw massive changes a while back with the addition of unload on skill 3.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > The majority might had been nerfed since launch . And yet , those 2 French teams used it to counter the established meta and win

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > The build worked out. But the video burnfall shows, as usual, is irrelevant.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > I should congratulate the 2 teams , for moving the meta forward . I am looking forward to the no-stack-tournament in July .

> > > > > > > > > > My boyfriend seem kinda happy atm, and i am going to ''punish'' him later for the giggles:)

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > A thief player who doesnt loathe condi thief? Preposterous.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Its not entirely irrelevant .

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > It is *entirely* irrelevant. The build wasnt good, since then we had a complete overhaul of not just the trait system, but also conditions as a whole. Skill 3 saw numerous changes, skill 4 a couple, and at that point in time people had yet to figure out how to easily stop Shadow Refuge (why do you think noone uses it anymore) and CnD (why do you think D/D thief fell off the face of the earth). And thats not even getting into how cherrypicked the video is.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > The Sustain was not on par with the current meta (especially the warrior) , based on the video . And thieves had multiply nerfs since then

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Funny thing that. Sustain on Warrior was actually much better. Healing Signet was nerfed several times since then. Adrenal Healing was nerfed, and you dont get free healing power from traits anymore. Thats just another sign that the video is cherrypicked. Oh and, P/D condi thief specifically was never nerfed. Just buffed. Over and Over.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > But people in the tournaments used the Shadow refuge . In solo que , you cant cordinate with stranger , that why is not used .

> > > > > > CND was also used from 2 French teams to win the tournaments .

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Did they? Oh they probably were using the shadow field combo since the stealth attack has 100% projectile finisher. No the reason Shadow Refuge isnt used isnt "because you cant coordinate with strangers" (you can, thats why you smoke field + blast people in solo Q). Its because its bad. Plop down a shadow refuge, and you just signal to your enemies "Chuck AoEs here and we will drop like flies". And for out of combat stealthing up, Smoke field + blast is just better.

> > > > >

> > > > > > If we look other classes like Memsers and the rest on the video , we can see the the Vanilia was a less sustain that the current .

> > > > > > So if P/D dagger thieve had problems before , it wouldn't make it to the ''now'' era and win vs all the Bunker meta was we are plagued .

> > > > > > I mean , that some spec went under the radar , because people are so fixed about what streamers are doing

> > > > >

> > > > > Dunno about all the classes, but nah, Mesmers sustained used to be way better. Its no comparision. And condis used to be way worse. As I said, the video is irrelevant, the build, the systems and the enemies have nothing in common with right now.

> > > >

> > > > But the video is kinda relevant . The majority of thieves only got nerfed all these years while the sustain was increased dramatically .

> > > > That means there are even more hidden old PvP/WvWvW specs to be used again . And we should not get fixed on what the streamers are doing .

> > > > Just like 2 French teams -un baquet

> > >

> > > Sustain has not been increased dramatically. It just seems that way because damage for other classes has been somewhat stifled. While you have a point that people shouldn't get attached to what the streamers are doing, that really doesn't mean that they're representative of the entire thief player base. For example, Vallun and Sindrener are THE thief streamers because they play at a level far past most other thieves on GW2. Saying that just because the streamers are doing something doesnt mean that the rest of the thief players are also doing that because most people would be streamers themselves if they were doing what Vallun and Sindrener were doing. Furthermore, sustain has not been increased dramatically for thief. If anything, it's been cut even more but because of the current bunker meta that we're in, other professions aren't running builds that are punishing the poor state that thief sustain is in. Thief still has one of the lowest, if not the lowest sustainability's in GW2.

> >

> > Sustain in a MMO is not just raw healing burst or invulnerability, the ability to block incoming dmg and to avoid death is also sustain...in that regard thief does not lack any more sustain than other classes

>

> So... please explain to me what sustain a thief has in a fight to the death with another class?

> @"darren.1064" said:

> > @"Supreme.3164" said:

> > > @"darren.1064" said:

> > > > @"Captain Kuro.8937" said:

> > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > > > > @"Captain Kuro.8937" said:

> > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > > > > > > @"Captain Kuro.8937" said:

> > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > > > > > > > > @"Captain Kuro.8937" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > @"Captain Kuro.8937" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > you guys realize that burnfall is not attacking your main right? hes not saying its OP or that it needs to be nerfed, he just says its toxic and its true

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > He says both. By bringing up irrelevant videos that are a) from the wrong gamemode, b) several years out of date or c), both. He is infamous for his tendency to write long essays that contain nothing of substance, being biased to a hilarious degree (he always defends necro even when its über-broken, but doesnt stop calling for thief nerfs even when thief is in the gutter), and posting videos so irrelevant and out of place its just jarring.

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > In the other hand he might say , that specific spec existed since launch . People where fixated about what the streamers are using atm .

> > > > > > > > > > > > While some other like those French teams , thought outside the box and used that WvWvW spec

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Every combination of weapons has existed since launch. Doesnt mean that they were good, nor that they were unchanged. In case of P/D, neither is the case. It wasnt a good weaponset for a very long time, and it saw massive changes a while back with the addition of unload on skill 3.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > The majority might had been nerfed since launch . And yet , those 2 French teams used it to counter the established meta and win

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > The build worked out. But the video burnfall shows, as usual, is irrelevant.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > I should congratulate the 2 teams , for moving the meta forward . I am looking forward to the no-stack-tournament in July .

> > > > > > > > > > My boyfriend seem kinda happy atm, and i am going to ''punish'' him later for the giggles:)

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > A thief player who doesnt loathe condi thief? Preposterous.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Its not entirely irrelevant .

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > It is *entirely* irrelevant. The build wasnt good, since then we had a complete overhaul of not just the trait system, but also conditions as a whole. Skill 3 saw numerous changes, skill 4 a couple, and at that point in time people had yet to figure out how to easily stop Shadow Refuge (why do you think noone uses it anymore) and CnD (why do you think D/D thief fell off the face of the earth). And thats not even getting into how cherrypicked the video is.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > The Sustain was not on par with the current meta (especially the warrior) , based on the video . And thieves had multiply nerfs since then

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Funny thing that. Sustain on Warrior was actually much better. Healing Signet was nerfed several times since then. Adrenal Healing was nerfed, and you dont get free healing power from traits anymore. Thats just another sign that the video is cherrypicked. Oh and, P/D condi thief specifically was never nerfed. Just buffed. Over and Over.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > But people in the tournaments used the Shadow refuge . In solo que , you cant cordinate with stranger , that why is not used .

> > > > > > CND was also used from 2 French teams to win the tournaments .

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Did they? Oh they probably were using the shadow field combo since the stealth attack has 100% projectile finisher. No the reason Shadow Refuge isnt used isnt "because you cant coordinate with strangers" (you can, thats why you smoke field + blast people in solo Q). Its because its bad. Plop down a shadow refuge, and you just signal to your enemies "Chuck AoEs here and we will drop like flies". And for out of combat stealthing up, Smoke field + blast is just better.

> > > > >

> > > > > > If we look other classes like Memsers and the rest on the video , we can see the the Vanilia was a less sustain that the current .

> > > > > > So if P/D dagger thieve had problems before , it wouldn't make it to the ''now'' era and win vs all the Bunker meta was we are plagued .

> > > > > > I mean , that some spec went under the radar , because people are so fixed about what streamers are doing

> > > > >

> > > > > Dunno about all the classes, but nah, Mesmers sustained used to be way better. Its no comparision. And condis used to be way worse. As I said, the video is irrelevant, the build, the systems and the enemies have nothing in common with right now.

> > > >

> > > > But the video is kinda relevant . The majority of thieves only got nerfed all these years while the sustain was increased dramatically .

> > > > That means there are even more hidden old PvP/WvWvW specs to be used again . And we should not get fixed on what the streamers are doing .

> > > > Just like 2 French teams -un baquet

> > >

> > > Sustain has not been increased dramatically. It just seems that way because damage for other classes has been somewhat stifled. While you have a point that people shouldn't get attached to what the streamers are doing, that really doesn't mean that they're representative of the entire thief player base. For example, Vallun and Sindrener are THE thief streamers because they play at a level far past most other thieves on GW2. Saying that just because the streamers are doing something doesnt mean that the rest of the thief players are also doing that because most people would be streamers themselves if they were doing what Vallun and Sindrener were doing. Furthermore, sustain has not been increased dramatically for thief. If anything, it's been cut even more but because of the current bunker meta that we're in, other professions aren't running builds that are punishing the poor state that thief sustain is in. Thief still has one of the lowest, if not the lowest sustainability's in GW2.

> >

> > Sustain in a MMO is not just raw healing burst or invulnerability, the ability to block incoming dmg and to avoid death is also sustain...in that regard thief does not lack any more sustain than other classes

>

> So... please explain to me what sustain a thief has in a fight to the death with another class?

I don't understand..you want to play an assassin right?! well an assassin is not a brawler at least not in a MMO. As far as I am concerned , the thief class should be specialized in +1 quick burst to create imbalances during fight and at the same time it should not have the sustain to last in a fight against a spec made for sustain, a burst class like thief should have an assassin spec and a duellist spec ( possibly a support spec ) , the assassin spec superior to other class while the duellist spec inferior to other classes, the difference between a duellist and assassin spec would be the lack of extreme mobility/disengage in first case compared to the latter

> @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > @"Supreme.3164" said:

> > > @"darren.1064" said:

> > > > @"Captain Kuro.8937" said:

> > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > > > > @"Captain Kuro.8937" said:

> > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > > > > > > @"Captain Kuro.8937" said:

> > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > > > > > > > > @"Captain Kuro.8937" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > @"Captain Kuro.8937" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > you guys realize that burnfall is not attacking your main right? hes not saying its OP or that it needs to be nerfed, he just says its toxic and its true

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > He says both. By bringing up irrelevant videos that are a) from the wrong gamemode, b) several years out of date or c), both. He is infamous for his tendency to write long essays that contain nothing of substance, being biased to a hilarious degree (he always defends necro even when its über-broken, but doesnt stop calling for thief nerfs even when thief is in the gutter), and posting videos so irrelevant and out of place its just jarring.

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > In the other hand he might say , that specific spec existed since launch . People where fixated about what the streamers are using atm .

> > > > > > > > > > > > While some other like those French teams , thought outside the box and used that WvWvW spec

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Every combination of weapons has existed since launch. Doesnt mean that they were good, nor that they were unchanged. In case of P/D, neither is the case. It wasnt a good weaponset for a very long time, and it saw massive changes a while back with the addition of unload on skill 3.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > The majority might had been nerfed since launch . And yet , those 2 French teams used it to counter the established meta and win

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > The build worked out. But the video burnfall shows, as usual, is irrelevant.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > I should congratulate the 2 teams , for moving the meta forward . I am looking forward to the no-stack-tournament in July .

> > > > > > > > > > My boyfriend seem kinda happy atm, and i am going to ''punish'' him later for the giggles:)

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > A thief player who doesnt loathe condi thief? Preposterous.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Its not entirely irrelevant .

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > It is *entirely* irrelevant. The build wasnt good, since then we had a complete overhaul of not just the trait system, but also conditions as a whole. Skill 3 saw numerous changes, skill 4 a couple, and at that point in time people had yet to figure out how to easily stop Shadow Refuge (why do you think noone uses it anymore) and CnD (why do you think D/D thief fell off the face of the earth). And thats not even getting into how cherrypicked the video is.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > The Sustain was not on par with the current meta (especially the warrior) , based on the video . And thieves had multiply nerfs since then

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Funny thing that. Sustain on Warrior was actually much better. Healing Signet was nerfed several times since then. Adrenal Healing was nerfed, and you dont get free healing power from traits anymore. Thats just another sign that the video is cherrypicked. Oh and, P/D condi thief specifically was never nerfed. Just buffed. Over and Over.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > But people in the tournaments used the Shadow refuge . In solo que , you cant cordinate with stranger , that why is not used .

> > > > > > CND was also used from 2 French teams to win the tournaments .

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Did they? Oh they probably were using the shadow field combo since the stealth attack has 100% projectile finisher. No the reason Shadow Refuge isnt used isnt "because you cant coordinate with strangers" (you can, thats why you smoke field + blast people in solo Q). Its because its bad. Plop down a shadow refuge, and you just signal to your enemies "Chuck AoEs here and we will drop like flies". And for out of combat stealthing up, Smoke field + blast is just better.

> > > > >

> > > > > > If we look other classes like Memsers and the rest on the video , we can see the the Vanilia was a less sustain that the current .

> > > > > > So if P/D dagger thieve had problems before , it wouldn't make it to the ''now'' era and win vs all the Bunker meta was we are plagued .

> > > > > > I mean , that some spec went under the radar , because people are so fixed about what streamers are doing

> > > > >

> > > > > Dunno about all the classes, but nah, Mesmers sustained used to be way better. Its no comparision. And condis used to be way worse. As I said, the video is irrelevant, the build, the systems and the enemies have nothing in common with right now.

> > > >

> > > > But the video is kinda relevant . The majority of thieves only got nerfed all these years while the sustain was increased dramatically .

> > > > That means there are even more hidden old PvP/WvWvW specs to be used again . And we should not get fixed on what the streamers are doing .

> > > > Just like 2 French teams -un baquet

> > >

> > > Sustain has not been increased dramatically. It just seems that way because damage for other classes has been somewhat stifled. While you have a point that people shouldn't get attached to what the streamers are doing, that really doesn't mean that they're representative of the entire thief player base. For example, Vallun and Sindrener are THE thief streamers because they play at a level far past most other thieves on GW2. Saying that just because the streamers are doing something doesnt mean that the rest of the thief players are also doing that because most people would be streamers themselves if they were doing what Vallun and Sindrener were doing. Furthermore, sustain has not been increased dramatically for thief. If anything, it's been cut even more but because of the current bunker meta that we're in, other professions aren't running builds that are punishing the poor state that thief sustain is in. Thief still has one of the lowest, if not the lowest sustainability's in GW2.

> >

> > Sustain in a MMO is not just raw healing burst or invulnerability, the ability to block incoming dmg and to avoid death is also sustain...in that regard thief does not lack any more sustain than other classes

>

> It absolutely does, its not even close. It only doesnt if you include "running away" as survivability. But thats frankly nonsense. Outside of that, thief has less passive and active sustain, less active defenses (their blinds are outclassed by engineer who also has invulnerability, reflect and up to 2 blocks), and nothing really to make up for it.

You are either able to run away or you must stay and soak up dmg, both methods will allow the player to survive. If you can't run away or soak up dmg there would be no much point in even and that's where the idea of balance kicks in.

Either way, from what I could gather...thieves want the burst and mobility to be a serious threat and ofc other professions want to play the game so what are the solutions?

You always have the initiative on thief, if you deal so much dmg that the enemy can't respond..it would be broken, if the enemy hasn't got the sustain to recover after the dmg...it would be just as broken.

If you ask for other to have enough dmg to "punish" thief when he gets close..well are we forgetting that thief always get to jump on you first? If you trade sustain for dmg on other professions while not having the innate survival tools of thief, you will end up losing all the times.

I am kinda of confused...what exactly are you asking?

-If a thief faces the burst spec of another profession then it should win easy, that's the nature of thief ofc

-If a thief faces a bruiser then it should face a 40/60 chance of victory in favor of the other profession

-If a thief faces a bunker than it should not die in 1vs1 and only win with a +1

If you think differently, then try to explain

> @"darren.1064" said:

> > @"Captain Kuro.8937" said:

> > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > > @"Captain Kuro.8937" said:

> > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > > > > @"Captain Kuro.8937" said:

> > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > > > > > > @"Captain Kuro.8937" said:

> > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > > > > > > > > @"Captain Kuro.8937" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > you guys realize that burnfall is not attacking your main right? hes not saying its OP or that it needs to be nerfed, he just says its toxic and its true

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > He says both. By bringing up irrelevant videos that are a) from the wrong gamemode, b) several years out of date or c), both. He is infamous for his tendency to write long essays that contain nothing of substance, being biased to a hilarious degree (he always defends necro even when its über-broken, but doesnt stop calling for thief nerfs even when thief is in the gutter), and posting videos so irrelevant and out of place its just jarring.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > In the other hand he might say , that specific spec existed since launch . People where fixated about what the streamers are using atm .

> > > > > > > > > > While some other like those French teams , thought outside the box and used that WvWvW spec

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Every combination of weapons has existed since launch. Doesnt mean that they were good, nor that they were unchanged. In case of P/D, neither is the case. It wasnt a good weaponset for a very long time, and it saw massive changes a while back with the addition of unload on skill 3.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > The majority might had been nerfed since launch . And yet , those 2 French teams used it to counter the established meta and win

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > The build worked out. But the video burnfall shows, as usual, is irrelevant.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > I should congratulate the 2 teams , for moving the meta forward . I am looking forward to the no-stack-tournament in July .

> > > > > > > > My boyfriend seem kinda happy atm, and i am going to ''punish'' him later for the giggles:)

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > A thief player who doesnt loathe condi thief? Preposterous.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Its not entirely irrelevant .

> > > > >

> > > > > It is *entirely* irrelevant. The build wasnt good, since then we had a complete overhaul of not just the trait system, but also conditions as a whole. Skill 3 saw numerous changes, skill 4 a couple, and at that point in time people had yet to figure out how to easily stop Shadow Refuge (why do you think noone uses it anymore) and CnD (why do you think D/D thief fell off the face of the earth). And thats not even getting into how cherrypicked the video is.

> > > > >

> > > > > > The Sustain was not on par with the current meta (especially the warrior) , based on the video . And thieves had multiply nerfs since then

> > > > >

> > > > > Funny thing that. Sustain on Warrior was actually much better. Healing Signet was nerfed several times since then. Adrenal Healing was nerfed, and you dont get free healing power from traits anymore. Thats just another sign that the video is cherrypicked. Oh and, P/D condi thief specifically was never nerfed. Just buffed. Over and Over.

> > > >

> > > > But people in the tournaments used the Shadow refuge . In solo que , you cant cordinate with stranger , that why is not used .

> > > > CND was also used from 2 French teams to win the tournaments .

> > > >

> > >

> > > Did they? Oh they probably were using the shadow field combo since the stealth attack has 100% projectile finisher. No the reason Shadow Refuge isnt used isnt "because you cant coordinate with strangers" (you can, thats why you smoke field + blast people in solo Q). Its because its bad. Plop down a shadow refuge, and you just signal to your enemies "Chuck AoEs here and we will drop like flies". And for out of combat stealthing up, Smoke field + blast is just better.

> > >

> > > > If we look other classes like Memsers and the rest on the video , we can see the the Vanilia was a less sustain that the current .

> > > > So if P/D dagger thieve had problems before , it wouldn't make it to the ''now'' era and win vs all the Bunker meta was we are plagued .

> > > > I mean , that some spec went under the radar , because people are so fixed about what streamers are doing

> > >

> > > Dunno about all the classes, but nah, Mesmers sustained used to be way better. Its no comparision. And condis used to be way worse. As I said, the video is irrelevant, the build, the systems and the enemies have nothing in common with right now.

> >

> > But the video is kinda relevant . The majority of thieves only got nerfed all these years while the sustain was increased dramatically .

> > That means there are even more hidden old PvP/WvWvW specs to be used again . And we should not get fixed on what the streamers are doing .

> > Just like 2 French teams -un baquet

>

> Sustain has not been increased dramatically. It just seems that way because damage for other classes has been somewhat stifled. While you have a point that people shouldn't get attached to what the streamers are doing, that really doesn't mean that they're representative of the entire thief player base. For example, Vallun and Sindrener are THE thief streamers because they play at a level far past most other thieves on GW2. Saying that just because the streamers are doing something doesnt mean that the rest of the thief players are also doing that because most people would be streamers themselves if they were doing what Vallun and Sindrener were doing. Furthermore, sustain has not been increased dramatically for thief. If anything, it's been cut even more but because of the current bunker meta that we're in, other professions aren't running builds that are punishing the poor state that thief sustain is in. Thief still has one of the lowest, if not the lowest sustainability's in GW2.

Sustain in a MMO is not just raw healing burst or invulnerability, the ability to block incoming dmg and to avoid death is also sustain...in that regard thief does not lack any more sustain than other classes

> @"Poledra Val.1490" said:

> The biggest issue right now is that for some inexplicable reason thief always seems to have some of the most braindead builds in pvp, pistol condie thief requires once again much like its predecessor such little skill yet its mightily effective.

Blame the main design concept of thief with initiative , whenever you lower the skill ceiling for the class, you end up with "one hit wonder" builds running all over the place

> @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > @"Supreme.3164" said:

> > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > > @"Supreme.3164" said:

> > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > > > > @"Supreme.3164" said:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > A condi thief slaughtering all opposition...Cheese Mode defeated even R55, @Boyce and @Bluri got owned by the condi thief...holy ..didn't think it was this powerful, even core ranger dies lol

> > > > >

> > > > > Hm, that is surprising. Not so much that R55 would lose to it, their comp looked pretty shaky against condi builds in general, but the fact that it managed to get that far. Are people running fewer condi cleanses and the build is abusing it, or are condi cleanses just not enough to keep up?

> > > >

> > > > If unexpected ..the burst of a condi thief can down even a tempest support, really depends , with guards I have CoP, a herald could use Glint's heal, even a resistance burst from a war could prevent insta death...it really depends on your build, yes typical meta build can be easily one shot by a condi thief but mostly because meta builds are made for teamplay and not all made for 1v1

> > > >

> > > > P.S the 3 renegade winning team anyway takes the cake xd, that was glorius hahaha...back to zoo meta

> > >

> > > Even if unexpected it shouldnt be so fast you dont have time to clear at all. It just surprises me because there should be enough clears to contend with it. The triple Renegade win was hilarious however,

> >

> > I think it's **Basilisk** + Steal triggering **Bewildering Ambush**+daze and they still have headshot but yeah...you basically die if you have slow reaction time, either way @Kazeen the condi thief for Cheese mode is good to start with, don't think an average guy would be able to down @Boyce and @Misha on a condi thief

>

> Wild. I did know that condi thief did more damage than regular thief, but I would still not have expected this.

The burst is indeed unexpected, perfect for +1 or to hardcounters builds that lack in strong condi removal and reflect I think, even the core ranger died to it xd, either way the build is not broken OP, it can be countered somehow.

> @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > @"Supreme.3164" said:

> > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > > @"Supreme.3164" said:

> > > >

> > > > A condi thief slaughtering all opposition...Cheese Mode defeated even R55, @Boyce and @Bluri got owned by the condi thief...holy ..didn't think it was this powerful, even core ranger dies lol

> > >

> > > Hm, that is surprising. Not so much that R55 would lose to it, their comp looked pretty shaky against condi builds in general, but the fact that it managed to get that far. Are people running fewer condi cleanses and the build is abusing it, or are condi cleanses just not enough to keep up?

> >

> > If unexpected ..the burst of a condi thief can down even a tempest support, really depends , with guards I have CoP, a herald could use Glint's heal, even a resistance burst from a war could prevent insta death...it really depends on your build, yes typical meta build can be easily one shot by a condi thief but mostly because meta builds are made for teamplay and not all made for 1v1

> >

> > P.S the 3 renegade winning team anyway takes the cake xd, that was glorius hahaha...back to zoo meta

>

> Even if unexpected it shouldnt be so fast you dont have time to clear at all. It just surprises me because there should be enough clears to contend with it. The triple Renegade win was hilarious however,

I think it's **Basilisk** + Steal triggering **Bewildering Ambush**+daze and they still have headshot but yeah...you basically die if you have slow reaction time, either way @Kazeen the condi thief for Cheese mode is good to start with, don't think an average guy would be able to down @Boyce and @Misha on a condi thief

> @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > @"Supreme.3164" said:

> >

> > A condi thief slaughtering all opposition...Cheese Mode defeated even R55, @Boyce and @Bluri got owned by the condi thief...holy ..didn't think it was this powerful, even core ranger dies lol

>

> Hm, that is surprising. Not so much that R55 would lose to it, their comp looked pretty shaky against condi builds in general, but the fact that it managed to get that far. Are people running fewer condi cleanses and the build is abusing it, or are condi cleanses just not enough to keep up?

If unexpected ..the burst of a condi thief can down even a tempest support, really depends , with guards I have CoP, a herald could use Glint's heal, even a resistance burst from a war could prevent insta death...it really depends on your build, yes typical meta build can be easily one shot by a condi thief but mostly because meta builds are made for teamplay and not all made for 1v1

P.S the 3 renegade winning team anyway takes the cake xd, that was glorius hahaha...back to zoo meta

A condi thief slaughtering all opposition...Cheese Mode defeated even R55, @Boyce and @Bluri got owned by the condi thief...holy ..didn't think it was this powerful, even core ranger dies lol

> @"MithranArkanere.8957" said:

> The last thing we need is speeding up match manipulation.

Easy solution = temporary pvp ban for using "concede" function more than once within a quick time span ...one week pvp ban

> @"Megametzler.5729" said:

> > @"Auburner.6945" said:

> > Weaver itself has 0 sustain. The sword and core specs carry weaver when it goes for sustain. Weaver needs Arcane for boons, Water for heals and condi cleanse, the sword is just the tool used to carry out what these 2 core specs offer. Weaver's line adds nothing except the lower attunement cd and Woven Stride for bunker,(...)

>

> While I agree with your post in general - three sustainy lines :cry: -, weaver does in fact give quite a lot of sustain. S/D weavers in PVP basically pick defensive traits only:

>

> Master's Fortitude for extra health.

> Bolstered Elements for quick instant stability.

> You mentioned Woven Stride for lots of cleanses (admitted, only in connection with water traitline).

>

> The first minor giving (some) barrier is also defensive, the second can be used for both defense and offense. And let's not forget Twist of Fate, which is incredible.

>

> I don't think a big rework is necessary, but buffs are needed indeed. Make vitality baseline, increase barriers, maybe decrease some stance CDs... and then, yes, decrease evade uptimes. But let's face it, we won't get another rework befor mirage's second or third one. :wink:

>

> Also, totally agree with you, why don't sword, scepter have auras and staff still only one?! :angry: Has been asked for for... forever, basically!

>

Water and Arcana alone do not offer enough sustain that can keep up with current levels of damage and Weaver itself as said already offers 0 to laughable sustain with feeble barrier "spam"....**the only reason you get to see eles in pvp at all is because of Sword with earthen vortex and riptide**.

Ele does need big reworks to become competitive again, it relies too much on stats (toughness, healing power and vitality) to become playable at all..not even meta..just playable, without those 3 stats you're just a meteor storm spammer in wvw/raid...a build that **run** on thin ice 24/7...if this does not require big reworks ..I dunno what does

> @"Justine.6351" said:

> > @"Supreme.3164" said:

> > I know this rune set is powerful...that's why I don't understand its introduction...it's so strong that it overshadow everything else when it comes to roaming in general, what kind of design decision is this?...It seems to me they're trying indirectly to simplify the game even more by adding these "too good to pass" options...

> >

> > Guardians, warriors...I can see them too running this runeset..so nonsense

>

> Well at least its not Durability 2.0

They need to **double** the CD of might/vigor gain or reduce the stacks of might from 6 to 1-2

I know this rune set is powerful...that's why I don't understand its introduction...it's so strong that it overshadow everything else when it comes to roaming in general, what kind of design decision is this?...It seems to me they're trying indirectly to simplify the game even more by adding these "too good to pass" options...

Guardians, warriors...I can see them too running this runeset..so nonsense

> @"DemonSeed.3528" said:

> Lol, there is nothing at all wrong with that food. If you were prevented from stomping or were downed by that, it was your own fault. You are complaining about this being "like having 2 lives", and yet use warrior that has vengeance for its downed skills. lulz.

Warrior has also "endure pain" on passive to avoid insta stealth burst...

> @"Zenix.6198" said:

> > @"milego.4830" said:

> > > @"Zenix.6198" said:

> > > what the hell is with all those "Matchmaking forcing 50/50 winratio"- complaints people have going on now.

> > > that is exactly how a good matchmaker IS SUPPOSED to work.

> >

> > Nope. The matchmaking is supposed to put you in matches where any side has a 50% chance of winning. What happens now is that the matchmaking puts players in blowouts matches to force a 50% winrate. But you don't need to trust me, let's make a test: anyone with more than 150 matches this season paste a screenshot in this topic of their current winrate and the last 10 matches. Let's see how many people has a winrate better than 55% and has had AT LEAST three close matches in their last 10.

> >

> > Remember, at least 150 games so we can have a good sample size. I have 12 games so far with 10 wins, but it means kitten.

>

> that logicc is fundamentally skewed.

> If you play a lot of matches you probably (eventually) will get placed at your actual skillrating. And if you play a game at which everybody supposedly is about equally skilled, both sides tend to have a winrate of about 50%.

>

> The increased amount of blowoutmatches that people experience (if at all, since perception of this is very subjective) are mostly a sideproduct of the snowball heavy meta we have atm and not because of some tinfoil-hat matchmaker-manipulation.

How can the system calculate your skillrating if everything is based on win/loss ratio of random team vs random team? If you get constantly a team that dies in 2s flat literally and you end up doing the only 200 pts for your team....you tell me that it's my fault for not winning which doesn't make much sense, other than ressing, trying to lure enemies on sides, hold 1vs2/3..there is nothing else I can do...but I will lose regardless.

The problem with pvp in GW2 is that everything is based around win/loss ratio of random team vs random team when it would make more sense to base everything on personal performance