Firebeard.1746
-
Posts
676 -
Joined
-
Last visited
Content Type
Forums
Events
Articles
Gallery
Posts posted by Firebeard.1746
-
-
> @"Cyninja.2954" said:
> > @"Firebeard.1746" said:
> > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:
> > > > @"Firebeard.1746" said:
> > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:
> > > > > > @"Firebeard.1746" said:
> > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:
> > > > > > > > @"Firebeard.1746" said:
> > > > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Yes, WoW raids after 15 years (and on a different patch cycle, classic is 1.12, WoW vanilla didn't launch with 1.12) and vast optimization and experience the vanilla raids were cleared very fast. MC was never a difficult raid (nor did it require 40 Players, given how always around 20 were semi afk), that title goes to Naxx40 and even there it was mostly due to gear.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Those raids are not mythic nor are they heroic and they are certainly not balanced for 40 people (and if you had watched the MC classic clear, you would have seen that all sub 60 players were dead most of the time, they were literally just along for minor dps increase since vanilla raids did not scale).
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > So yes, after 15 years, I'm quite sure GW2 raids would be just as optimized. Actually they are now given how most raid wings were cleared in below 20 minutes WITH challenge modes last ERP3.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I'm sorry you are having such a hard time adapting to this game. The raids are still not difficult.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > This is a bit non sequitur. You led with Vanilla being more difficult then said it wasn't in the next post. The reality of Vanilla being difficult was just that people were learning the game whereas Anet dropped them on an already experienced and geared community. You're just disagreeing to disagree.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I never said vanilla MC, and even then, that raid toll vadtsy longer when it was new and takes vastly longer now.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > You are comparing absolute power gamers in WoW Calssic to GW2. I took the equivalent GW2 players and compared them. The ERP3 tournament is not even 1 month past.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > @"Firebeard.1746" said:
> > > > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:
> > > > > > > > > > @"Firebeard.1746" said:
> > > > > > > > > > And that's just the raids themselves. In game, the GW2 community is not as enthusiastic about them (i,e harder to find people willing to do them), and gearing up for something that isn't a core stat configuration from Core Tyria takes a non trivial amount of time compared to WoW.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Which might be relevant to group composition, but is irrelevant to actual skill required.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Gearing up ANYTHING in GW2 is absolutely trivial. Both if you decide to use budget builds or if you make use of all content provided. It literally takes no more than a few hours for max gear (exotic armor, ascended weapons+trinkets).
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > So as far as this goes i've spent more time than you've mentioned gathering Lws3 mats for ascended gear (and even tossed pvp currency & laurels from TP vendors i didn't want to at some of those trinkets). The only way i could think this is true is if there's a gold based shortcut that a new person wouldn't be be able to take.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > 1 ring is 200 Winterberries and 2k UM. 1 run through the winterberry forest is 3-5 minutes and yields 42-45 Winterberries and 600-700 UM (an additional 1k if those wintervrries are consummed).
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > This puts 1 ring at around 4-5 times 3-5 minutes. So aproximately 30 minutes per ascended ring.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The same math can be done for trinkets and backpiece, which takes 40 minutes and around 1 hour. That is if using only this 1 farm and when starting from 0 winterberries. Using different maps, even daily resets, it takes an couple of minutes per day to around 4 hours on 1 day.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Thst is for best in slot trinkets (with all stats available).
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Gearing in GW2 is a non issue for people who put in the effort to acquire the knowledge how.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > @"Firebeard.1746" said:
> > > > > > > > What i've gathered so far is you're not trying to understand me while i'm trying to understand you. I've already discussed difficulty of the raids you claim gw2 doesn't match or barely matches(heroic) as a new player, yet you repeat your tired old line. We shouldn't be talking about mythic
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Because it doesn't. Heroic or Mythic in WoW is insanely hard for a new player on level gear. Most raid guilds either train people there or recruit established raiders, similar to GW2.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > All I see is someone who constantly tries to find some reason to comfort himself why the game is hard or he lacks success. I'm sorry, GW2 raids in normal mode (not even metioning CM) are not hard. They might be different, but they require no more or better or preciser execution than any other games raids. From a pure skill perspective, they are significantly easier.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > @"Firebeard.1746" said:
> > > > > > > > Cm should be where gw2's equivalent lives. I've found room to believe your opinion, yet you just don't listen when it comes to mine and in fact it's ridiculous you're trying to tell me i'm not experiencing what i'm experiencing.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I'm not disbelieving you or your claims about what you are experiencing. I'm disagreeing with you as to the cause or reason for your failures.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I can comfort you though, as a new raider and without proper guidance or help from experienced players, you are subject to many factors outside your direct control which will artificially make success harder. That's why most exprienced raiders tell people to find a guild which does trainings. It helps remove some of the initial issues and wrong habbits.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:
> > > > > > > > @"Firebeard.1746" said:
> > > > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Yes, WoW raids after 15 years (and on a different patch cycle, classic is 1.12, WoW vanilla didn't launch with 1.12) and vast optimization and experience the vanilla raids were cleared very fast. MC was never a difficult raid (nor did it require 40 Players, given how always around 20 were semi afk), that title goes to Naxx40 and even there it was mostly due to gear.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Those raids are not mythic nor are they heroic and they are certainly not balanced for 40 people (and if you had watched the MC classic clear, you would have seen that all sub 60 players were dead most of the time, they were literally just along for minor dps increase since vanilla raids did not scale).
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > So yes, after 15 years, I'm quite sure GW2 raids would be just as optimized. Actually they are now given how most raid wings were cleared in below 20 minutes WITH challenge modes last ERP3.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I'm sorry you are having such a hard time adapting to this game. The raids are still not difficult.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > This is a bit non sequitur. You led with Vanilla being more difficult then said it wasn't in the next post. The reality of Vanilla being difficult was just that people were learning the game whereas Anet dropped them on an already experienced and geared community. You're just disagreeing to disagree.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I never said vanilla MC, and even then, that raid toll vadtsy longer when it was new and takes vastly longer now.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > You are comparing absolute power gamers in WoW Calssic to GW2. I took the equivalent GW2 players and compared them. The ERP3 tournament is not even 1 month past.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > @"Firebeard.1746" said:
> > > > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:
> > > > > > > > > > @"Firebeard.1746" said:
> > > > > > > > > > And that's just the raids themselves. In game, the GW2 community is not as enthusiastic about them (i,e harder to find people willing to do them), and gearing up for something that isn't a core stat configuration from Core Tyria takes a non trivial amount of time compared to WoW.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Which might be relevant to group composition, but is irrelevant to actual skill required.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Gearing up ANYTHING in GW2 is absolutely trivial. Both if you decide to use budget builds or if you make use of all content provided. It literally takes no more than a few hours for max gear (exotic armor, ascended weapons+trinkets).
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > So as far as this goes i've spent more time than you've mentioned gathering Lws3 mats for ascended gear (and even tossed pvp currency & laurels from TP vendors i didn't want to at some of those trinkets). The only way i could think this is true is if there's a gold based shortcut that a new person wouldn't be be able to take.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > 1 ring is 200 Winterberries and 2k UM. 1 run through the winterberry forest is 3-5 minutes and yields 42-45 Winterberries and 600-700 UM (an additional 1k if those wintervrries are consummed).
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > This puts 1 ring at around 4-5 times 3-5 minutes. So aproximately 30 minutes per ascended ring.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The same math can be done for trinkets and backpiece, which takes 40 minutes and around 1 hour. That is if using only this 1 farm and when starting from 0 winterberries. Using different maps, even daily resets, it takes an couple of minutes per day to around 4 hours on 1 day.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Thst is for best in slot trinkets (with all stats available).
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Gearing in GW2 is a non issue for people who put in the effort to acquire the knowledge how.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > @"Firebeard.1746" said:
> > > > > > > > What i've gathered so far is you're not trying to understand me while i'm trying to understand you. I've already discussed difficulty of the raids you claim gw2 doesn't match or barely matches(heroic) as a new player, yet you repeat your tired old line. We shouldn't be talking about mythic
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Because it doesn't. Heroic or Mythic in WoW is insanely hard for a new player on level gear. Most raid guilds either train people there or recruit established raiders, similar to GW2.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > All I see is someone who constantly tries to find some reason to comfort himself why the game is hard or he lacks success. I'm sorry, GW2 raids in normal mode (not even metioning CM) are not hard. They might be different, but they require no more or better or preciser execution than any other games raids. From a pure skill perspective, they are significantly easier.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > @"Firebeard.1746" said:
> > > > > > > > Cm should be where gw2's equivalent lives. I've found room to believe your opinion, yet you just don't listen when it comes to mine and in fact it's ridiculous you're trying to tell me i'm not experiencing what i'm experiencing.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I'm not disbelieving you or your claims about what you are experiencing. I'm disagreeing with you as to the cause or reason for your failures.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I can comfort you though, as a new raider and without proper guidance or help from experienced players, you are subject to many factors outside your direct control which will artificially make success harder. That's why most exprienced raiders tell people to find a guild which does trainings. It helps remove some of the initial issues and wrong habbits.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Mc took insanely long to clear the first time and you've been talking clear times. Keep watching classic for comparison on other raids.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > All i see is someone criticizing someone learning the game and you're vastly understating farm route times. You usually agro something so combat time comes into play too. Also you practically hijacked the thread, and make up some random bs whenever i give you data points showing it's easier in WoW, like obviously if heroic is that much more difficult than gw2 raids, it makes no sense that was it cleared in 1 day in the presence of a vertical progressions grind. Even mythic previous tier didn't go that high in terms of ilvl. Keep criticizing me, calling me a noob indirectly. you're doing awesome at building a community around a game mode you supposedly love. This is basically harassment with doses of niceness when i call you out.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > If i'm such a noob, why don't i suck at WoW? This is rhetorical. I don't want to talk to you any further. Also most of my comments revolve around mechanics, however i do find gearing more difficult in GW2. It feels like you changed focus randomly.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > This game will never take the amount of time to clear as other games because power cap has already been hit and all the hardcore players know all 9 classes (half the forums in a separate poll). Any build is practically available to any hardcore players if they have all leggie trinkets and a leggie set of each armor type. Add in a decent collection of acended trinkets for your other 2 slots and you're golden. The only way to make a raid take as long as in WoW in the current system is to basically require so many mechanics that there's a low chance of any experienced player having the twitch reflexes to win it, even on a consistent basis after hatching a strategy. That sounds awful. And probably explains current raid design. Good day. I didn't mention my experiences in the two games in the op for the sake of discussion. My op was obviously asking a different question, any further discussion on this will be reported, it's obvious you feel threatened by other people's experiences/opinions and even data points, especially when they agree to disagree. I've already stated i understand where you're coming from.
> > > > >
> > > > > Clear times gor WoW raids, top 20:
> > > > >
> > > > > - 1 Ouro - 87 days from the Twin Emperors' death. 26th April 2006.
> > > > > - 2 C'thun - 86 days from the Twin Emperors' death. 25th April 2006.
> > > > > - 3 tied Chromaggus - 74 days from Ebonroc's death. 25th September 2005.
> > > > > - 3 tied Ragnaros - 74 days from Majordomo Executus' death. 25th April 2005.
> > > > > - 5 Yogg-Saron, Alone in the Darkness - 70 days from Stars' first pull. 7th July 2009
> > > > > - 6 High Astromancer Solarian - 59 days from Magtheridon's death (unlocking the Eye). 24th April 2007
> > > > > - 7 The Four Horsemen - 56 days from Gothik's death to D&T's kill. August 25th 2006
> > > > > - 8 Al'ar - 48 days from Magtheridon's death. 13th April 2007
> > > > > - 9 The Lich King (Heroic 25) - 42 Days from Heroic Putricide's death (first pull). March 26th 2010
> > > > > - 10 Heroic Al'Akir 25 - 36 days from Heroic Conclave of Wind's death. January 22nd 2011.
> > > > > - 11 Kael'thas Sunstrider - 31 days from Solarian's death (first pull). 25th May 2007
> > > > > - 12 Magtheridon - 29 days from the first level 70 25-man raid. 24th February 2007
> > > > > - 13 Lady Vashj - 17 days from being unlocked. 29th March 2007
> > > > > - 14 Leotheras the Blind - 16 days from Hydross' death. 4th March 2007
> > > > > - 15 Loatheb - 14 days from Heigan's death. 17th July 2006
> > > > > - 16 tied Heigan the Unclean - 13 days from Noth the Plaguebringer's death. 3rd July 2006
> > > > > - 16 tied Hydross the Unstable - 13 days from Gruul's death (Unlocking Serpentshrine). 16th February 2007
> > > > > - 16 tied Heroic Cho'gall - 13 days from Heroic Ascendant Council's death. 15th January 2011.
> > > > > - 16 tied Heroic Nefarian - 13 days from Heroic Atramedes' death. January 9th 2011.
> > > > > - 20 tied Archimonde - 10 days from Azgalor's death. 9th June 2007
> > > > > - 20 tied Gothik the Harvester - 10 days from Instructor Razuvious' death. 30th June 2006
> > > > >
> > > > > Compared to the most difficult boss in GW2, Dhuum:
> > > > > World first kill by SC after 2 days.
> > > > >
> > > > > Yes, and GW2 wing1 also took insanely long compared to how difficult it is. Still was only 1 week if I recall, maybe even shorter. Both games had new raid communities develope which got progressively better. GW2 raid kills times shrunk to hours, WoW to multiple days. I'm not seeing it.
> > > > >
> > > > > I gave you a very realistic farm route. If you are unable to clear the winterberry forest in the presence of mounts, movement skills, unlimited harvesting tools and a muktitude of other people running through, that is on you. I was very generous with the 5 minute estimate. I'm not saying it is impossible to take long to gear a character if using ineffizient approaches, I'm saying (and providing an example) of how an efficient time frame would look like.
> > > > >
> > > > > You are correct though, no reason to continue this discussion. You are absolutely convinced the game is at fault and far to difficult. You'll either improve and clear raids or quit, which justification you use to continue or quite is no concern of mine.
> > > >
> > > > trolololol your most recent kill is from 12 year ago, really? When Heroic = mythic? lolololololololl, and I've been talking about the last 2 years this whole darn time? Dude, this is evidence you're not listening and just trolling. It's hilarious the poster above me is worshipping you!
> > >
> > > Fine, Ghuun took 8 days until first kill by Method, current Mythic BfA raid boss. Better?
> > >
> > > Compared to 4.5 hours for wing 7 CM.
> > >
> > > With 285 pulls until success against around 10-20.
> >
> > And vertical progression to tackle to boot?
>
> Would not make up a disparitiy of close to 40x (8 days/4.5 hours). Also those 4.5 hours were for an entire wing, not only 1 boss.
It does when they're using RNG to beat the vertical progression curve. As I've previously stated. I get where this argument comes from now, a guy talking about WoW 10 years ago vs. me talking about it now.
-
> @"Cyninja.2954" said:
> > @"Firebeard.1746" said:
> > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:
> > > > @"Firebeard.1746" said:
> > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:
> > > > > > @"Firebeard.1746" said:
> > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Yes, WoW raids after 15 years (and on a different patch cycle, classic is 1.12, WoW vanilla didn't launch with 1.12) and vast optimization and experience the vanilla raids were cleared very fast. MC was never a difficult raid (nor did it require 40 Players, given how always around 20 were semi afk), that title goes to Naxx40 and even there it was mostly due to gear.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Those raids are not mythic nor are they heroic and they are certainly not balanced for 40 people (and if you had watched the MC classic clear, you would have seen that all sub 60 players were dead most of the time, they were literally just along for minor dps increase since vanilla raids did not scale).
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > So yes, after 15 years, I'm quite sure GW2 raids would be just as optimized. Actually they are now given how most raid wings were cleared in below 20 minutes WITH challenge modes last ERP3.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I'm sorry you are having such a hard time adapting to this game. The raids are still not difficult.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > This is a bit non sequitur. You led with Vanilla being more difficult then said it wasn't in the next post. The reality of Vanilla being difficult was just that people were learning the game whereas Anet dropped them on an already experienced and geared community. You're just disagreeing to disagree.
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > I never said vanilla MC, and even then, that raid toll vadtsy longer when it was new and takes vastly longer now.
> > > > >
> > > > > You are comparing absolute power gamers in WoW Calssic to GW2. I took the equivalent GW2 players and compared them. The ERP3 tournament is not even 1 month past.
> > > > >
> > > > > > @"Firebeard.1746" said:
> > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:
> > > > > > > > @"Firebeard.1746" said:
> > > > > > > > And that's just the raids themselves. In game, the GW2 community is not as enthusiastic about them (i,e harder to find people willing to do them), and gearing up for something that isn't a core stat configuration from Core Tyria takes a non trivial amount of time compared to WoW.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Which might be relevant to group composition, but is irrelevant to actual skill required.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Gearing up ANYTHING in GW2 is absolutely trivial. Both if you decide to use budget builds or if you make use of all content provided. It literally takes no more than a few hours for max gear (exotic armor, ascended weapons+trinkets).
> > > > > >
> > > > > > So as far as this goes i've spent more time than you've mentioned gathering Lws3 mats for ascended gear (and even tossed pvp currency & laurels from TP vendors i didn't want to at some of those trinkets). The only way i could think this is true is if there's a gold based shortcut that a new person wouldn't be be able to take.
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > 1 ring is 200 Winterberries and 2k UM. 1 run through the winterberry forest is 3-5 minutes and yields 42-45 Winterberries and 600-700 UM (an additional 1k if those wintervrries are consummed).
> > > > >
> > > > > This puts 1 ring at around 4-5 times 3-5 minutes. So aproximately 30 minutes per ascended ring.
> > > > >
> > > > > The same math can be done for trinkets and backpiece, which takes 40 minutes and around 1 hour. That is if using only this 1 farm and when starting from 0 winterberries. Using different maps, even daily resets, it takes an couple of minutes per day to around 4 hours on 1 day.
> > > > >
> > > > > Thst is for best in slot trinkets (with all stats available).
> > > > >
> > > > > Gearing in GW2 is a non issue for people who put in the effort to acquire the knowledge how.
> > > > >
> > > > > > @"Firebeard.1746" said:
> > > > > > What i've gathered so far is you're not trying to understand me while i'm trying to understand you. I've already discussed difficulty of the raids you claim gw2 doesn't match or barely matches(heroic) as a new player, yet you repeat your tired old line. We shouldn't be talking about mythic
> > > > >
> > > > > Because it doesn't. Heroic or Mythic in WoW is insanely hard for a new player on level gear. Most raid guilds either train people there or recruit established raiders, similar to GW2.
> > > > >
> > > > > All I see is someone who constantly tries to find some reason to comfort himself why the game is hard or he lacks success. I'm sorry, GW2 raids in normal mode (not even metioning CM) are not hard. They might be different, but they require no more or better or preciser execution than any other games raids. From a pure skill perspective, they are significantly easier.
> > > > >
> > > > > > @"Firebeard.1746" said:
> > > > > > Cm should be where gw2's equivalent lives. I've found room to believe your opinion, yet you just don't listen when it comes to mine and in fact it's ridiculous you're trying to tell me i'm not experiencing what i'm experiencing.
> > > > >
> > > > > I'm not disbelieving you or your claims about what you are experiencing. I'm disagreeing with you as to the cause or reason for your failures.
> > > > >
> > > > > I can comfort you though, as a new raider and without proper guidance or help from experienced players, you are subject to many factors outside your direct control which will artificially make success harder. That's why most exprienced raiders tell people to find a guild which does trainings. It helps remove some of the initial issues and wrong habbits.
> > > >
> > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:
> > > > > > @"Firebeard.1746" said:
> > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Yes, WoW raids after 15 years (and on a different patch cycle, classic is 1.12, WoW vanilla didn't launch with 1.12) and vast optimization and experience the vanilla raids were cleared very fast. MC was never a difficult raid (nor did it require 40 Players, given how always around 20 were semi afk), that title goes to Naxx40 and even there it was mostly due to gear.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Those raids are not mythic nor are they heroic and they are certainly not balanced for 40 people (and if you had watched the MC classic clear, you would have seen that all sub 60 players were dead most of the time, they were literally just along for minor dps increase since vanilla raids did not scale).
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > So yes, after 15 years, I'm quite sure GW2 raids would be just as optimized. Actually they are now given how most raid wings were cleared in below 20 minutes WITH challenge modes last ERP3.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I'm sorry you are having such a hard time adapting to this game. The raids are still not difficult.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > This is a bit non sequitur. You led with Vanilla being more difficult then said it wasn't in the next post. The reality of Vanilla being difficult was just that people were learning the game whereas Anet dropped them on an already experienced and geared community. You're just disagreeing to disagree.
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > I never said vanilla MC, and even then, that raid toll vadtsy longer when it was new and takes vastly longer now.
> > > > >
> > > > > You are comparing absolute power gamers in WoW Calssic to GW2. I took the equivalent GW2 players and compared them. The ERP3 tournament is not even 1 month past.
> > > > >
> > > > > > @"Firebeard.1746" said:
> > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:
> > > > > > > > @"Firebeard.1746" said:
> > > > > > > > And that's just the raids themselves. In game, the GW2 community is not as enthusiastic about them (i,e harder to find people willing to do them), and gearing up for something that isn't a core stat configuration from Core Tyria takes a non trivial amount of time compared to WoW.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Which might be relevant to group composition, but is irrelevant to actual skill required.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Gearing up ANYTHING in GW2 is absolutely trivial. Both if you decide to use budget builds or if you make use of all content provided. It literally takes no more than a few hours for max gear (exotic armor, ascended weapons+trinkets).
> > > > > >
> > > > > > So as far as this goes i've spent more time than you've mentioned gathering Lws3 mats for ascended gear (and even tossed pvp currency & laurels from TP vendors i didn't want to at some of those trinkets). The only way i could think this is true is if there's a gold based shortcut that a new person wouldn't be be able to take.
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > 1 ring is 200 Winterberries and 2k UM. 1 run through the winterberry forest is 3-5 minutes and yields 42-45 Winterberries and 600-700 UM (an additional 1k if those wintervrries are consummed).
> > > > >
> > > > > This puts 1 ring at around 4-5 times 3-5 minutes. So aproximately 30 minutes per ascended ring.
> > > > >
> > > > > The same math can be done for trinkets and backpiece, which takes 40 minutes and around 1 hour. That is if using only this 1 farm and when starting from 0 winterberries. Using different maps, even daily resets, it takes an couple of minutes per day to around 4 hours on 1 day.
> > > > >
> > > > > Thst is for best in slot trinkets (with all stats available).
> > > > >
> > > > > Gearing in GW2 is a non issue for people who put in the effort to acquire the knowledge how.
> > > > >
> > > > > > @"Firebeard.1746" said:
> > > > > > What i've gathered so far is you're not trying to understand me while i'm trying to understand you. I've already discussed difficulty of the raids you claim gw2 doesn't match or barely matches(heroic) as a new player, yet you repeat your tired old line. We shouldn't be talking about mythic
> > > > >
> > > > > Because it doesn't. Heroic or Mythic in WoW is insanely hard for a new player on level gear. Most raid guilds either train people there or recruit established raiders, similar to GW2.
> > > > >
> > > > > All I see is someone who constantly tries to find some reason to comfort himself why the game is hard or he lacks success. I'm sorry, GW2 raids in normal mode (not even metioning CM) are not hard. They might be different, but they require no more or better or preciser execution than any other games raids. From a pure skill perspective, they are significantly easier.
> > > > >
> > > > > > @"Firebeard.1746" said:
> > > > > > Cm should be where gw2's equivalent lives. I've found room to believe your opinion, yet you just don't listen when it comes to mine and in fact it's ridiculous you're trying to tell me i'm not experiencing what i'm experiencing.
> > > > >
> > > > > I'm not disbelieving you or your claims about what you are experiencing. I'm disagreeing with you as to the cause or reason for your failures.
> > > > >
> > > > > I can comfort you though, as a new raider and without proper guidance or help from experienced players, you are subject to many factors outside your direct control which will artificially make success harder. That's why most exprienced raiders tell people to find a guild which does trainings. It helps remove some of the initial issues and wrong habbits.
> > > >
> > > > Mc took insanely long to clear the first time and you've been talking clear times. Keep watching classic for comparison on other raids.
> > > >
> > > > All i see is someone criticizing someone learning the game and you're vastly understating farm route times. You usually agro something so combat time comes into play too. Also you practically hijacked the thread, and make up some random bs whenever i give you data points showing it's easier in WoW, like obviously if heroic is that much more difficult than gw2 raids, it makes no sense that was it cleared in 1 day in the presence of a vertical progressions grind. Even mythic previous tier didn't go that high in terms of ilvl. Keep criticizing me, calling me a noob indirectly. you're doing awesome at building a community around a game mode you supposedly love. This is basically harassment with doses of niceness when i call you out.
> > > >
> > > > If i'm such a noob, why don't i suck at WoW? This is rhetorical. I don't want to talk to you any further. Also most of my comments revolve around mechanics, however i do find gearing more difficult in GW2. It feels like you changed focus randomly.
> > > >
> > > > This game will never take the amount of time to clear as other games because power cap has already been hit and all the hardcore players know all 9 classes (half the forums in a separate poll). Any build is practically available to any hardcore players if they have all leggie trinkets and a leggie set of each armor type. Add in a decent collection of acended trinkets for your other 2 slots and you're golden. The only way to make a raid take as long as in WoW in the current system is to basically require so many mechanics that there's a low chance of any experienced player having the twitch reflexes to win it, even on a consistent basis after hatching a strategy. That sounds awful. And probably explains current raid design. Good day. I didn't mention my experiences in the two games in the op for the sake of discussion. My op was obviously asking a different question, any further discussion on this will be reported, it's obvious you feel threatened by other people's experiences/opinions and even data points, especially when they agree to disagree. I've already stated i understand where you're coming from.
> > >
> > > Clear times gor WoW raids, top 20:
> > >
> > > - 1 Ouro - 87 days from the Twin Emperors' death. 26th April 2006.
> > > - 2 C'thun - 86 days from the Twin Emperors' death. 25th April 2006.
> > > - 3 tied Chromaggus - 74 days from Ebonroc's death. 25th September 2005.
> > > - 3 tied Ragnaros - 74 days from Majordomo Executus' death. 25th April 2005.
> > > - 5 Yogg-Saron, Alone in the Darkness - 70 days from Stars' first pull. 7th July 2009
> > > - 6 High Astromancer Solarian - 59 days from Magtheridon's death (unlocking the Eye). 24th April 2007
> > > - 7 The Four Horsemen - 56 days from Gothik's death to D&T's kill. August 25th 2006
> > > - 8 Al'ar - 48 days from Magtheridon's death. 13th April 2007
> > > - 9 The Lich King (Heroic 25) - 42 Days from Heroic Putricide's death (first pull). March 26th 2010
> > > - 10 Heroic Al'Akir 25 - 36 days from Heroic Conclave of Wind's death. January 22nd 2011.
> > > - 11 Kael'thas Sunstrider - 31 days from Solarian's death (first pull). 25th May 2007
> > > - 12 Magtheridon - 29 days from the first level 70 25-man raid. 24th February 2007
> > > - 13 Lady Vashj - 17 days from being unlocked. 29th March 2007
> > > - 14 Leotheras the Blind - 16 days from Hydross' death. 4th March 2007
> > > - 15 Loatheb - 14 days from Heigan's death. 17th July 2006
> > > - 16 tied Heigan the Unclean - 13 days from Noth the Plaguebringer's death. 3rd July 2006
> > > - 16 tied Hydross the Unstable - 13 days from Gruul's death (Unlocking Serpentshrine). 16th February 2007
> > > - 16 tied Heroic Cho'gall - 13 days from Heroic Ascendant Council's death. 15th January 2011.
> > > - 16 tied Heroic Nefarian - 13 days from Heroic Atramedes' death. January 9th 2011.
> > > - 20 tied Archimonde - 10 days from Azgalor's death. 9th June 2007
> > > - 20 tied Gothik the Harvester - 10 days from Instructor Razuvious' death. 30th June 2006
> > >
> > > Compared to the most difficult boss in GW2, Dhuum:
> > > World first kill by SC after 2 days.
> > >
> > > Yes, and GW2 wing1 also took insanely long compared to how difficult it is. Still was only 1 week if I recall, maybe even shorter. Both games had new raid communities develope which got progressively better. GW2 raid kills times shrunk to hours, WoW to multiple days. I'm not seeing it.
> > >
> > > I gave you a very realistic farm route. If you are unable to clear the winterberry forest in the presence of mounts, movement skills, unlimited harvesting tools and a muktitude of other people running through, that is on you. I was very generous with the 5 minute estimate. I'm not saying it is impossible to take long to gear a character if using ineffizient approaches, I'm saying (and providing an example) of how an efficient time frame would look like.
> > >
> > > You are correct though, no reason to continue this discussion. You are absolutely convinced the game is at fault and far to difficult. You'll either improve and clear raids or quit, which justification you use to continue or quite is no concern of mine.
> >
> > trolololol your most recent kill is from 12 year ago, really? When Heroic = mythic? lolololololololl, and I've been talking about the last 2 years this whole darn time? Dude, this is evidence you're not listening and just trolling. It's hilarious the poster above me is worshipping you!
>
> Fine, Ghuun took 8 days until first kill by Method, current Mythic BfA raid boss. Better?
>
> Compared to 4.5 hours for wing 7 CM.
>
> With 285 pulls until success against around 10-20.
And vertical progression to tackle to boot? I have already stated their method, they use RNG procs as part of their strategy. THis is ENTIRELY expected. Apples and oranges.
-
> @"Cyninja.2954" said:
> > @"Firebeard.1746" said:
> > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:
> > > > @"Firebeard.1746" said:
> > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:
> > > > >
> > > > > Yes, WoW raids after 15 years (and on a different patch cycle, classic is 1.12, WoW vanilla didn't launch with 1.12) and vast optimization and experience the vanilla raids were cleared very fast. MC was never a difficult raid (nor did it require 40 Players, given how always around 20 were semi afk), that title goes to Naxx40 and even there it was mostly due to gear.
> > > > >
> > > > > Those raids are not mythic nor are they heroic and they are certainly not balanced for 40 people (and if you had watched the MC classic clear, you would have seen that all sub 60 players were dead most of the time, they were literally just along for minor dps increase since vanilla raids did not scale).
> > > > >
> > > > > So yes, after 15 years, I'm quite sure GW2 raids would be just as optimized. Actually they are now given how most raid wings were cleared in below 20 minutes WITH challenge modes last ERP3.
> > > > >
> > > > > I'm sorry you are having such a hard time adapting to this game. The raids are still not difficult.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > This is a bit non sequitur. You led with Vanilla being more difficult then said it wasn't in the next post. The reality of Vanilla being difficult was just that people were learning the game whereas Anet dropped them on an already experienced and geared community. You're just disagreeing to disagree.
> > > >
> > >
> > > I never said vanilla MC, and even then, that raid toll vadtsy longer when it was new and takes vastly longer now.
> > >
> > > You are comparing absolute power gamers in WoW Calssic to GW2. I took the equivalent GW2 players and compared them. The ERP3 tournament is not even 1 month past.
> > >
> > > > @"Firebeard.1746" said:
> > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:
> > > > > > @"Firebeard.1746" said:
> > > > > > And that's just the raids themselves. In game, the GW2 community is not as enthusiastic about them (i,e harder to find people willing to do them), and gearing up for something that isn't a core stat configuration from Core Tyria takes a non trivial amount of time compared to WoW.
> > > > >
> > > > > Which might be relevant to group composition, but is irrelevant to actual skill required.
> > > > >
> > > > > Gearing up ANYTHING in GW2 is absolutely trivial. Both if you decide to use budget builds or if you make use of all content provided. It literally takes no more than a few hours for max gear (exotic armor, ascended weapons+trinkets).
> > > >
> > > > So as far as this goes i've spent more time than you've mentioned gathering Lws3 mats for ascended gear (and even tossed pvp currency & laurels from TP vendors i didn't want to at some of those trinkets). The only way i could think this is true is if there's a gold based shortcut that a new person wouldn't be be able to take.
> > > >
> > >
> > > 1 ring is 200 Winterberries and 2k UM. 1 run through the winterberry forest is 3-5 minutes and yields 42-45 Winterberries and 600-700 UM (an additional 1k if those wintervrries are consummed).
> > >
> > > This puts 1 ring at around 4-5 times 3-5 minutes. So aproximately 30 minutes per ascended ring.
> > >
> > > The same math can be done for trinkets and backpiece, which takes 40 minutes and around 1 hour. That is if using only this 1 farm and when starting from 0 winterberries. Using different maps, even daily resets, it takes an couple of minutes per day to around 4 hours on 1 day.
> > >
> > > Thst is for best in slot trinkets (with all stats available).
> > >
> > > Gearing in GW2 is a non issue for people who put in the effort to acquire the knowledge how.
> > >
> > > > @"Firebeard.1746" said:
> > > > What i've gathered so far is you're not trying to understand me while i'm trying to understand you. I've already discussed difficulty of the raids you claim gw2 doesn't match or barely matches(heroic) as a new player, yet you repeat your tired old line. We shouldn't be talking about mythic
> > >
> > > Because it doesn't. Heroic or Mythic in WoW is insanely hard for a new player on level gear. Most raid guilds either train people there or recruit established raiders, similar to GW2.
> > >
> > > All I see is someone who constantly tries to find some reason to comfort himself why the game is hard or he lacks success. I'm sorry, GW2 raids in normal mode (not even metioning CM) are not hard. They might be different, but they require no more or better or preciser execution than any other games raids. From a pure skill perspective, they are significantly easier.
> > >
> > > > @"Firebeard.1746" said:
> > > > Cm should be where gw2's equivalent lives. I've found room to believe your opinion, yet you just don't listen when it comes to mine and in fact it's ridiculous you're trying to tell me i'm not experiencing what i'm experiencing.
> > >
> > > I'm not disbelieving you or your claims about what you are experiencing. I'm disagreeing with you as to the cause or reason for your failures.
> > >
> > > I can comfort you though, as a new raider and without proper guidance or help from experienced players, you are subject to many factors outside your direct control which will artificially make success harder. That's why most exprienced raiders tell people to find a guild which does trainings. It helps remove some of the initial issues and wrong habbits.
> >
> > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:
> > > > @"Firebeard.1746" said:
> > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:
> > > > >
> > > > > Yes, WoW raids after 15 years (and on a different patch cycle, classic is 1.12, WoW vanilla didn't launch with 1.12) and vast optimization and experience the vanilla raids were cleared very fast. MC was never a difficult raid (nor did it require 40 Players, given how always around 20 were semi afk), that title goes to Naxx40 and even there it was mostly due to gear.
> > > > >
> > > > > Those raids are not mythic nor are they heroic and they are certainly not balanced for 40 people (and if you had watched the MC classic clear, you would have seen that all sub 60 players were dead most of the time, they were literally just along for minor dps increase since vanilla raids did not scale).
> > > > >
> > > > > So yes, after 15 years, I'm quite sure GW2 raids would be just as optimized. Actually they are now given how most raid wings were cleared in below 20 minutes WITH challenge modes last ERP3.
> > > > >
> > > > > I'm sorry you are having such a hard time adapting to this game. The raids are still not difficult.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > This is a bit non sequitur. You led with Vanilla being more difficult then said it wasn't in the next post. The reality of Vanilla being difficult was just that people were learning the game whereas Anet dropped them on an already experienced and geared community. You're just disagreeing to disagree.
> > > >
> > >
> > > I never said vanilla MC, and even then, that raid toll vadtsy longer when it was new and takes vastly longer now.
> > >
> > > You are comparing absolute power gamers in WoW Calssic to GW2. I took the equivalent GW2 players and compared them. The ERP3 tournament is not even 1 month past.
> > >
> > > > @"Firebeard.1746" said:
> > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:
> > > > > > @"Firebeard.1746" said:
> > > > > > And that's just the raids themselves. In game, the GW2 community is not as enthusiastic about them (i,e harder to find people willing to do them), and gearing up for something that isn't a core stat configuration from Core Tyria takes a non trivial amount of time compared to WoW.
> > > > >
> > > > > Which might be relevant to group composition, but is irrelevant to actual skill required.
> > > > >
> > > > > Gearing up ANYTHING in GW2 is absolutely trivial. Both if you decide to use budget builds or if you make use of all content provided. It literally takes no more than a few hours for max gear (exotic armor, ascended weapons+trinkets).
> > > >
> > > > So as far as this goes i've spent more time than you've mentioned gathering Lws3 mats for ascended gear (and even tossed pvp currency & laurels from TP vendors i didn't want to at some of those trinkets). The only way i could think this is true is if there's a gold based shortcut that a new person wouldn't be be able to take.
> > > >
> > >
> > > 1 ring is 200 Winterberries and 2k UM. 1 run through the winterberry forest is 3-5 minutes and yields 42-45 Winterberries and 600-700 UM (an additional 1k if those wintervrries are consummed).
> > >
> > > This puts 1 ring at around 4-5 times 3-5 minutes. So aproximately 30 minutes per ascended ring.
> > >
> > > The same math can be done for trinkets and backpiece, which takes 40 minutes and around 1 hour. That is if using only this 1 farm and when starting from 0 winterberries. Using different maps, even daily resets, it takes an couple of minutes per day to around 4 hours on 1 day.
> > >
> > > Thst is for best in slot trinkets (with all stats available).
> > >
> > > Gearing in GW2 is a non issue for people who put in the effort to acquire the knowledge how.
> > >
> > > > @"Firebeard.1746" said:
> > > > What i've gathered so far is you're not trying to understand me while i'm trying to understand you. I've already discussed difficulty of the raids you claim gw2 doesn't match or barely matches(heroic) as a new player, yet you repeat your tired old line. We shouldn't be talking about mythic
> > >
> > > Because it doesn't. Heroic or Mythic in WoW is insanely hard for a new player on level gear. Most raid guilds either train people there or recruit established raiders, similar to GW2.
> > >
> > > All I see is someone who constantly tries to find some reason to comfort himself why the game is hard or he lacks success. I'm sorry, GW2 raids in normal mode (not even metioning CM) are not hard. They might be different, but they require no more or better or preciser execution than any other games raids. From a pure skill perspective, they are significantly easier.
> > >
> > > > @"Firebeard.1746" said:
> > > > Cm should be where gw2's equivalent lives. I've found room to believe your opinion, yet you just don't listen when it comes to mine and in fact it's ridiculous you're trying to tell me i'm not experiencing what i'm experiencing.
> > >
> > > I'm not disbelieving you or your claims about what you are experiencing. I'm disagreeing with you as to the cause or reason for your failures.
> > >
> > > I can comfort you though, as a new raider and without proper guidance or help from experienced players, you are subject to many factors outside your direct control which will artificially make success harder. That's why most exprienced raiders tell people to find a guild which does trainings. It helps remove some of the initial issues and wrong habbits.
> >
> > Mc took insanely long to clear the first time and you've been talking clear times. Keep watching classic for comparison on other raids.
> >
> > All i see is someone criticizing someone learning the game and you're vastly understating farm route times. You usually agro something so combat time comes into play too. Also you practically hijacked the thread, and make up some random bs whenever i give you data points showing it's easier in WoW, like obviously if heroic is that much more difficult than gw2 raids, it makes no sense that was it cleared in 1 day in the presence of a vertical progressions grind. Even mythic previous tier didn't go that high in terms of ilvl. Keep criticizing me, calling me a noob indirectly. you're doing awesome at building a community around a game mode you supposedly love. This is basically harassment with doses of niceness when i call you out.
> >
> > If i'm such a noob, why don't i suck at WoW? This is rhetorical. I don't want to talk to you any further. Also most of my comments revolve around mechanics, however i do find gearing more difficult in GW2. It feels like you changed focus randomly.
> >
> > This game will never take the amount of time to clear as other games because power cap has already been hit and all the hardcore players know all 9 classes (half the forums in a separate poll). Any build is practically available to any hardcore players if they have all leggie trinkets and a leggie set of each armor type. Add in a decent collection of acended trinkets for your other 2 slots and you're golden. The only way to make a raid take as long as in WoW in the current system is to basically require so many mechanics that there's a low chance of any experienced player having the twitch reflexes to win it, even on a consistent basis after hatching a strategy. That sounds awful. And probably explains current raid design. Good day. I didn't mention my experiences in the two games in the op for the sake of discussion. My op was obviously asking a different question, any further discussion on this will be reported, it's obvious you feel threatened by other people's experiences/opinions and even data points, especially when they agree to disagree. I've already stated i understand where you're coming from.
>
> Clear times gor WoW raids, top 20:
>
> - 1 Ouro - 87 days from the Twin Emperors' death. 26th April 2006.
> - 2 C'thun - 86 days from the Twin Emperors' death. 25th April 2006.
> - 3 tied Chromaggus - 74 days from Ebonroc's death. 25th September 2005.
> - 3 tied Ragnaros - 74 days from Majordomo Executus' death. 25th April 2005.
> - 5 Yogg-Saron, Alone in the Darkness - 70 days from Stars' first pull. 7th July 2009
> - 6 High Astromancer Solarian - 59 days from Magtheridon's death (unlocking the Eye). 24th April 2007
> - 7 The Four Horsemen - 56 days from Gothik's death to D&T's kill. August 25th 2006
> - 8 Al'ar - 48 days from Magtheridon's death. 13th April 2007
> - 9 The Lich King (Heroic 25) - 42 Days from Heroic Putricide's death (first pull). March 26th 2010
> - 10 Heroic Al'Akir 25 - 36 days from Heroic Conclave of Wind's death. January 22nd 2011.
> - 11 Kael'thas Sunstrider - 31 days from Solarian's death (first pull). 25th May 2007
> - 12 Magtheridon - 29 days from the first level 70 25-man raid. 24th February 2007
> - 13 Lady Vashj - 17 days from being unlocked. 29th March 2007
> - 14 Leotheras the Blind - 16 days from Hydross' death. 4th March 2007
> - 15 Loatheb - 14 days from Heigan's death. 17th July 2006
> - 16 tied Heigan the Unclean - 13 days from Noth the Plaguebringer's death. 3rd July 2006
> - 16 tied Hydross the Unstable - 13 days from Gruul's death (Unlocking Serpentshrine). 16th February 2007
> - 16 tied Heroic Cho'gall - 13 days from Heroic Ascendant Council's death. 15th January 2011.
> - 16 tied Heroic Nefarian - 13 days from Heroic Atramedes' death. January 9th 2011.
> - 20 tied Archimonde - 10 days from Azgalor's death. 9th June 2007
> - 20 tied Gothik the Harvester - 10 days from Instructor Razuvious' death. 30th June 2006
>
> Compared to the most difficult boss in GW2, Dhuum:
> World first kill by SC after 2 days.
>
> Yes, and GW2 wing1 also took insanely long compared to how difficult it is. Still was only 1 week if I recall, maybe even shorter. Both games had new raid communities develope which got progressively better. GW2 raid kills times shrunk to hours, WoW to multiple days. I'm not seeing it.
>
> I gave you a very realistic farm route. If you are unable to clear the winterberry forest in the presence of mounts, movement skills, unlimited harvesting tools and a muktitude of other people running through, that is on you. I was very generous with the 5 minute estimate. I'm not saying it is impossible to take long to gear a character if using ineffizient approaches, I'm saying (and providing an example) of how an efficient time frame would look like.
>
> You are correct though, no reason to continue this discussion. You are absolutely convinced the game is at fault and far to difficult. You'll either improve and clear raids or quit, which justification you use to continue or quite is no concern of mine.
trolololol your most recent kill is from 12 year ago, really? When Heroic = mythic? lolololololololl, and I've been talking about the last 2 years this whole darn time? Dude, this is evidence you're not listening and just trolling. It's hilarious the poster above me is worshipping you!
-
> @"Cyninja.2954" said:
> > @"Firebeard.1746" said:
> > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:
> > >
> > > Yes, WoW raids after 15 years (and on a different patch cycle, classic is 1.12, WoW vanilla didn't launch with 1.12) and vast optimization and experience the vanilla raids were cleared very fast. MC was never a difficult raid (nor did it require 40 Players, given how always around 20 were semi afk), that title goes to Naxx40 and even there it was mostly due to gear.
> > >
> > > Those raids are not mythic nor are they heroic and they are certainly not balanced for 40 people (and if you had watched the MC classic clear, you would have seen that all sub 60 players were dead most of the time, they were literally just along for minor dps increase since vanilla raids did not scale).
> > >
> > > So yes, after 15 years, I'm quite sure GW2 raids would be just as optimized. Actually they are now given how most raid wings were cleared in below 20 minutes WITH challenge modes last ERP3.
> > >
> > > I'm sorry you are having such a hard time adapting to this game. The raids are still not difficult.
> > >
> >
> > This is a bit non sequitur. You led with Vanilla being more difficult then said it wasn't in the next post. The reality of Vanilla being difficult was just that people were learning the game whereas Anet dropped them on an already experienced and geared community. You're just disagreeing to disagree.
> >
>
> I never said vanilla MC, and even then, that raid toll vadtsy longer when it was new and takes vastly longer now.
>
> You are comparing absolute power gamers in WoW Calssic to GW2. I took the equivalent GW2 players and compared them. The ERP3 tournament is not even 1 month past.
>
> > @"Firebeard.1746" said:
> > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:
> > > > @"Firebeard.1746" said:
> > > > And that's just the raids themselves. In game, the GW2 community is not as enthusiastic about them (i,e harder to find people willing to do them), and gearing up for something that isn't a core stat configuration from Core Tyria takes a non trivial amount of time compared to WoW.
> > >
> > > Which might be relevant to group composition, but is irrelevant to actual skill required.
> > >
> > > Gearing up ANYTHING in GW2 is absolutely trivial. Both if you decide to use budget builds or if you make use of all content provided. It literally takes no more than a few hours for max gear (exotic armor, ascended weapons+trinkets).
> >
> > So as far as this goes i've spent more time than you've mentioned gathering Lws3 mats for ascended gear (and even tossed pvp currency & laurels from TP vendors i didn't want to at some of those trinkets). The only way i could think this is true is if there's a gold based shortcut that a new person wouldn't be be able to take.
> >
>
> 1 ring is 200 Winterberries and 2k UM. 1 run through the winterberry forest is 3-5 minutes and yields 42-45 Winterberries and 600-700 UM (an additional 1k if those wintervrries are consummed).
>
> This puts 1 ring at around 4-5 times 3-5 minutes. So aproximately 30 minutes per ascended ring.
>
> The same math can be done for trinkets and backpiece, which takes 40 minutes and around 1 hour. That is if using only this 1 farm and when starting from 0 winterberries. Using different maps, even daily resets, it takes an couple of minutes per day to around 4 hours on 1 day.
>
> Thst is for best in slot trinkets (with all stats available).
>
> Gearing in GW2 is a non issue for people who put in the effort to acquire the knowledge how.
>
> > @"Firebeard.1746" said:
> > What i've gathered so far is you're not trying to understand me while i'm trying to understand you. I've already discussed difficulty of the raids you claim gw2 doesn't match or barely matches(heroic) as a new player, yet you repeat your tired old line. We shouldn't be talking about mythic
>
> Because it doesn't. Heroic or Mythic in WoW is insanely hard for a new player on level gear. Most raid guilds either train people there or recruit established raiders, similar to GW2.
>
> All I see is someone who constantly tries to find some reason to comfort himself why the game is hard or he lacks success. I'm sorry, GW2 raids in normal mode (not even metioning CM) are not hard. They might be different, but they require no more or better or preciser execution than any other games raids. From a pure skill perspective, they are significantly easier.
>
> > @"Firebeard.1746" said:
> > Cm should be where gw2's equivalent lives. I've found room to believe your opinion, yet you just don't listen when it comes to mine and in fact it's ridiculous you're trying to tell me i'm not experiencing what i'm experiencing.
>
> I'm not disbelieving you or your claims about what you are experiencing. I'm disagreeing with you as to the cause or reason for your failures.
>
> I can comfort you though, as a new raider and without proper guidance or help from experienced players, you are subject to many factors outside your direct control which will artificially make success harder. That's why most exprienced raiders tell people to find a guild which does trainings. It helps remove some of the initial issues and wrong habbits.
> @"Cyninja.2954" said:
> > @"Firebeard.1746" said:
> > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:
> > >
> > > Yes, WoW raids after 15 years (and on a different patch cycle, classic is 1.12, WoW vanilla didn't launch with 1.12) and vast optimization and experience the vanilla raids were cleared very fast. MC was never a difficult raid (nor did it require 40 Players, given how always around 20 were semi afk), that title goes to Naxx40 and even there it was mostly due to gear.
> > >
> > > Those raids are not mythic nor are they heroic and they are certainly not balanced for 40 people (and if you had watched the MC classic clear, you would have seen that all sub 60 players were dead most of the time, they were literally just along for minor dps increase since vanilla raids did not scale).
> > >
> > > So yes, after 15 years, I'm quite sure GW2 raids would be just as optimized. Actually they are now given how most raid wings were cleared in below 20 minutes WITH challenge modes last ERP3.
> > >
> > > I'm sorry you are having such a hard time adapting to this game. The raids are still not difficult.
> > >
> >
> > This is a bit non sequitur. You led with Vanilla being more difficult then said it wasn't in the next post. The reality of Vanilla being difficult was just that people were learning the game whereas Anet dropped them on an already experienced and geared community. You're just disagreeing to disagree.
> >
>
> I never said vanilla MC, and even then, that raid toll vadtsy longer when it was new and takes vastly longer now.
>
> You are comparing absolute power gamers in WoW Calssic to GW2. I took the equivalent GW2 players and compared them. The ERP3 tournament is not even 1 month past.
>
> > @"Firebeard.1746" said:
> > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:
> > > > @"Firebeard.1746" said:
> > > > And that's just the raids themselves. In game, the GW2 community is not as enthusiastic about them (i,e harder to find people willing to do them), and gearing up for something that isn't a core stat configuration from Core Tyria takes a non trivial amount of time compared to WoW.
> > >
> > > Which might be relevant to group composition, but is irrelevant to actual skill required.
> > >
> > > Gearing up ANYTHING in GW2 is absolutely trivial. Both if you decide to use budget builds or if you make use of all content provided. It literally takes no more than a few hours for max gear (exotic armor, ascended weapons+trinkets).
> >
> > So as far as this goes i've spent more time than you've mentioned gathering Lws3 mats for ascended gear (and even tossed pvp currency & laurels from TP vendors i didn't want to at some of those trinkets). The only way i could think this is true is if there's a gold based shortcut that a new person wouldn't be be able to take.
> >
>
> 1 ring is 200 Winterberries and 2k UM. 1 run through the winterberry forest is 3-5 minutes and yields 42-45 Winterberries and 600-700 UM (an additional 1k if those wintervrries are consummed).
>
> This puts 1 ring at around 4-5 times 3-5 minutes. So aproximately 30 minutes per ascended ring.
>
> The same math can be done for trinkets and backpiece, which takes 40 minutes and around 1 hour. That is if using only this 1 farm and when starting from 0 winterberries. Using different maps, even daily resets, it takes an couple of minutes per day to around 4 hours on 1 day.
>
> Thst is for best in slot trinkets (with all stats available).
>
> Gearing in GW2 is a non issue for people who put in the effort to acquire the knowledge how.
>
> > @"Firebeard.1746" said:
> > What i've gathered so far is you're not trying to understand me while i'm trying to understand you. I've already discussed difficulty of the raids you claim gw2 doesn't match or barely matches(heroic) as a new player, yet you repeat your tired old line. We shouldn't be talking about mythic
>
> Because it doesn't. Heroic or Mythic in WoW is insanely hard for a new player on level gear. Most raid guilds either train people there or recruit established raiders, similar to GW2.
>
> All I see is someone who constantly tries to find some reason to comfort himself why the game is hard or he lacks success. I'm sorry, GW2 raids in normal mode (not even metioning CM) are not hard. They might be different, but they require no more or better or preciser execution than any other games raids. From a pure skill perspective, they are significantly easier.
>
> > @"Firebeard.1746" said:
> > Cm should be where gw2's equivalent lives. I've found room to believe your opinion, yet you just don't listen when it comes to mine and in fact it's ridiculous you're trying to tell me i'm not experiencing what i'm experiencing.
>
> I'm not disbelieving you or your claims about what you are experiencing. I'm disagreeing with you as to the cause or reason for your failures.
>
> I can comfort you though, as a new raider and without proper guidance or help from experienced players, you are subject to many factors outside your direct control which will artificially make success harder. That's why most exprienced raiders tell people to find a guild which does trainings. It helps remove some of the initial issues and wrong habbits.
Mc took insanely long to clear the first time and you've been talking clear times. Keep watching classic for comparison on other raids.
All i see is someone criticizing someone learning the game and you're vastly understating farm route times. You usually agro something so combat time comes into play too. Also you practically hijacked the thread, and make up some random bs whenever i give you data points showing it's easier in WoW, like obviously if heroic is that much more difficult than gw2 raids, it makes no sense that was it cleared in 1 day in the presence of a vertical progressions grind. Even mythic previous tier didn't go that high in terms of ilvl. Keep criticizing me, calling me a noob indirectly. you're doing awesome at building a community around a game mode you supposedly love. This is basically harassment with doses of niceness when i call you out.
If i'm such a noob, why don't i suck at WoW? This is rhetorical. I don't want to talk to you any further. Also most of my comments revolve around mechanics, however i do find gearing more difficult in GW2. It feels like you changed focus randomly.
This game will never take the amount of time to clear as other games because power cap has already been hit and all the hardcore players know all 9 classes (half the forums in a separate poll). Any build is practically available to any hardcore players if they have all leggie trinkets and a leggie set of each armor type. Add in a decent collection of acended trinkets for your other 2 slots and you're golden. The only way to make a raid take as long as in WoW in the current system is to basically require so many mechanics that there's a low chance of any experienced player having the twitch reflexes to win it, even on a consistent basis after hatching a strategy. That sounds awful. And probably explains current raid design. Good day. I didn't mention my experiences in the two games in the op for the sake of discussion. My op was obviously asking a different question, any further discussion on this will be reported, it's obvious you feel threatened by other people's experiences/opinions and even data points, especially when they agree to disagree. I've already stated i understand where you're coming from.
-
> @"Cyninja.2954" said:
>
> Yes, WoW raids after 15 years (and on a different patch cycle, classic is 1.12, WoW vanilla didn't launch with 1.12) and vast optimization and experience the vanilla raids were cleared very fast. MC was never a difficult raid (nor did it require 40 Players, given how always around 20 were semi afk), that title goes to Naxx40 and even there it was mostly due to gear.
>
> Those raids are not mythic nor are they heroic and they are certainly not balanced for 40 people (and if you had watched the MC classic clear, you would have seen that all sub 60 players were dead most of the time, they were literally just along for minor dps increase since vanilla raids did not scale).
>
> So yes, after 15 years, I'm quite sure GW2 raids would be just as optimized. Actually they are now given how most raid wings were cleared in below 20 minutes WITH challenge modes last ERP3.
>
> I'm sorry you are having such a hard time adapting to this game. The raids are still not difficult.
>
This is a bit non sequitur. You led with Vanilla being more difficult then said it wasn't in the next post. The reality of Vanilla being difficult was just that people were learning the game whereas Anet dropped them on an already experienced and geared community. You're just disagreeing to disagree.
> > @"Firebeard.1746" said:
> > And that's just the raids themselves. In game, the GW2 community is not as enthusiastic about them (i,e harder to find people willing to do them), and gearing up for something that isn't a core stat configuration from Core Tyria takes a non trivial amount of time compared to WoW.
>
> Which might be relevant to group composition, but is irrelevant to actual skill required.
>
> Gearing up ANYTHING in GW2 is absolutely trivial. Both if you decide to use budget builds or if you make use of all content provided. It literally takes no more than a few hours for max gear (exotic armor, ascended weapons+trinkets).
So as far as this goes i've spent more time than you've mentioned gathering Lws3 mats for ascended gear (and even tossed pvp currency & laurels from TP vendors i didn't want to at some of those trinkets). The only way i could think this is true is if there's a gold based shortcut that a new person wouldn't be be able to take.
What i've gathered so far is you're not trying to understand me while i'm trying to understand you. I've already discussed difficulty of the raids you claim gw2 doesn't match or barely matches(heroic) as a new player, yet you repeat your tired old line. We shouldn't be talking about mythic
Cm should be where gw2's equivalent lives. I've found room to believe your opinion, yet you just don't listen when it comes to mine and in fact it's ridiculous you're trying to tell me i'm not experiencing what i'm experiencing.
-
> @"Cyninja.2954" said:
> You really do not want me looking up historic data on clear times for WoW raids versus GW2. It goes as high as over 85-90 days in vanilla.
>
> You might disagree on some things, but this is a very clear fact: first clears take significantly longer in WoW versus GW2. Given GW2 doesn't have as big a raid guild like Method and similar WoW raid guilds, this makes it even more obvious that WoW raids are more challenging.
>
> The only significant clear time until first kill in GW2 is Dhuum CM, and even that timeframe barely scratches the average time it takes for mythic and difficult herooc WoW bosses to get killed for the first time. We aren't even talking about CMs in GW2 here but about normal raids, and those are definately not even close to WoW mythic difficulty (or hard heroics).
Why don't you look up how long it took for classic MC clears before making this claim? It was ridiculously short compared to Vanilla (and done with sub level 60 characters lol, so you could make the claim that's like technically a 0 day clear, as the characters weren't all even "properly" prepared for it) and actually clearly demonstrates where we're both coming from. Anyone seasoned in a game is going to think things are trivial, and tbh, I was new to WoW last expansion in Legion (and only raided last tier, about 2 years ago, I did raid some in classic and BC too, but I don't count that as it was so long ago) and I'm completely new to GW2 raids now as all I did was open world before, I can tell you, based on new experiences in both games GW2 is more difficult. The mechanic density is much higher (at least in SP). Meaning the number of players messing up that it takes to wipe a raid is much lower in GW2 and those mechanics hit players much more frequently.
And that's just the raids themselves. In game, the GW2 community is not as enthusiastic about them (i,e harder to find people willing to do them), and gearing up for something that isn't a core stat configuration from Core Tyria takes a non trivial amount of time compared to WoW.
-
> @"Cyninja.2954" said:
> Going by pure time to first kill, WoW raids are significantly above GW2 raids in difficulty. This can be attributed to many factors though, most of which have been discussed: gearing, disparity im performance between a well played and poorly played class, etc.
Do you know how Method does win? They use proc classes and essentially roll the dice over and over with a low chance of success. Also dabbling in last tier taught me that some classes only do top damage with certain items and it's not just an ilvl game, it's also gated behind rng on BiS pieces as well. There was like a 50% dps difference between a BiS and non BiS configuration at the same ilvl for the spec i looked at for my character. Gw2 doesn't have that sort of gating.
Heroic tier was cleared like a day after EP was released and mythic tier isn't released until a week after the other 2.
-
> @"Cyninja.2954" said:
> > @"Firebeard.1746" said:
> > If you're not going to give meaningful help and just bash me pulling stuff out of thin air when you don't understand my WoW history and make up random stuff that you have no evidence for it's better just not to post.
> >
>
> I literally gave you the reason why wing2 can be challenging. You must have skipped it while complaining.
>
> You want advice for content which has seen neaely hundreds of guides? Here:
> - have a thief use his steal on Sloth, then use the stolen poison if the group eats a ton of conditions (have him switch to group, not squad view)
> - have 1 of the Dragonhunters bring Stand your Ground. Use before/during fear. It affects 10 people, can be used bevore the fear since the stability lasts a while
> - beind a heal scourge for even more condi remove, barrier and epidemic against adds
> - a heal scrapper (very rarer) can completely negate the shake with reflects, so can other classes like the chronos
> - a heal tempest works just as good as a heal scourge, tons of condi remove and very high healing
> - have people not move during his ground pound until all 3 circles appear as to not fill up the entire area with aoe
>
> Nearly every mechanic for this boss can be nullified if the group brings the appropriate counter. Now if you are running a full meta snowcrows composition with a group of new players, sure you will have issues if people fail mechanics.
>
> The same goes Matthias. Though here all you need is 1 heal scourge, have the chronos run minstrel and healing mantra (with condi remove) and maybe a boonthief. Bam, completely outtank the boss with massive condi remove, healing and barrier.
>
> > @"Firebeard.1746" said:
> > I actually think raiding in this game so far has been unfun. But I'm also trying to see if other tiers are as bad as SP so excuse me while I ask other people willing to help questions about the other tiers.
>
> As bad? No, similar in design. They all require players with a basic understanding of the boss, where to go and what to do.
>
> If you are not enjoying the content, then quit. The worst thing you can do is go in for only the rewards. It will leave you less motivated for both the content and the game, not give you satifaction for beating the content nor be fun in the process.
Yeah I didn't see it because you started assuming crap about me, that kind of turns people off EDIT: also I could already guess based on my experiences that 1 person wipes the raid. Thanks for the help. And btw, all the useful stuff came in the 2nd post.
-
> @"Cyninja.2954" said:
> > @"Firebeard.1746" said:
> > Second go at Salvation pass yesterday (the only raid I've done), and I laugh in the face of anyone saying GW2 raids are heroic level for WoW. Nope did multiple heroic tiers, and just nope. That one is definitely mythic (if WoW even has mechanics difficult enough to compare).
>
> We've been down this road.
>
> You've not done WoW heroic raids, definately not on level gear wise. You have likely done WoW heroic raids with an item level gear advantage, which makes them easier and more in the sphere of normal difficulty.
This is only true for Uldir. I've done practically all of antorus (except the last boss) at a disadvantage. i geared up in the bosses pervious to argus, so I'm not even sure you could argue that I did it at an "advantage". I've also dabbled in BoD at heroic level at the appropriate ilvl as well, so I can confidently say this is false and you're not my personal stalker. Either I miscommunicated in our previous thread or you're making stuff up. It is possible to overpower a raid in WoW, but that doesn't mean I've always done it that way.
>
> There is almost no raid content in GW2 which would pose a significant challenge to a WoW raider who did content on level and once acclimated to the different game design.
>
Okay, prove it, get a random joe shmoe guild and see what they have to say when they convert. I've had at least one person admit that the boss encounters hit mythic level in our previous discussions so i don't know what you're talking about.
> > @"Firebeard.1746" said:
> > So I'm curious if I should even bother with them, can experienced players please rate raids in terms of difficulty? I just need to know where Salvation pass stands.
>
> Simple to answer: have you enjoyed raiding so far?
> Yes: keep going.
> No: don't bother.
>
> Salvation Pass and Sloth/Math in particular are PUG killers because some of the mechanics present can cause a wipe, meaning if 1 player messes up, he screws everyone. For experienced players or groups that customize their setup for safe clears, this wing should pose no real challenge.
>
> > @"Firebeard.1746" said:
> > A raid or two at that level is fine, more than that, screw it, I can get 2g another way, and if Anet thinks gating Leggies behind them is going to get everyone to do them, it's just going to kill their game.
>
> If legendary gear is your only motivator and you are forcing yourself to raid without enjoying the content, you should consider getting the WvW or PvP legendary armor. Those might be just as unfun to get, but you'll have them eventually without any challenge gating your progress.
Wvw you have to play at least 40 hours a week for a year. Sorry I have a life. And I'm already doing this in SPvP. In previous seasons I was having a terrible win rate, this season hasn't been as bad, not sure if it's due to less bots or me just copy pasting a meta build, so when we last talked I had all but given up on sPVP as well. I actually do enjoy raiding in WoW and fractals in GW2. I actually think raiding in this game so far has been unfun. But I'm also trying to see if other tiers are as bad as SP so excuse me while I ask other people willing to help questions about the other tiers. If you're not going to give meaningful help and just bash me pulling stuff out of thin air when you don't understand my WoW history and make up random stuff that you have no evidence for it's better just not to post.
-
> @"maniksdi.1765" said:
> I am a big fan of the game. I play it every day and I plan on not quitting till I reach Fractal God status in the next few years.
> NOW! I am starting to see less and less ppl doing fractals. I assume new players are quitting game for good after tasting T1 Reef. Can we tone it down or remove it from T1? Why is it still more difficult than Observatory. I found T1 Reef really annoying with my 250ess CMs team today.
>
> Thanks for listening to my rant!
> Cred X
Lots of people try to just burst the final boss down and that CAN work and is doable in current power levels. The way to handle that boss as a non gear check is killing the adds as they spawn on a timer and it will overwhelm you if your group doesn't have the dps.
-
> @"maddoctor.2738" said:
> > @"Firebeard.1746" said:
> > Sloth stomp is a practical 1 shot mechanic.
>
> You should learn some things about Raid mechanics before going in there and trying a Raid. Knowledge is power, and half the battle.
> By "stomp" I assume you mean when Sloth pounds the ground for a while, creating very noticeable circles under the feet of all players. There are 3 circles that appear per player, as you move.The trick there is that you shouldn't move when Sloth pounds the ground, or the circles will spread and cover a larger area making them harder to avoid. Standing still will force the circles to spawn on top of each other, meaning far less area will be covered making them really easy to avoid. Running like headless chickens when encountering a boss ability in Raids does lead to wipes, but once you know the abilities work it becomes much easier.
>
> Edit: It's the same for most mechanics in the Raids.
I know how it works, he's claiming there aren't 1 shot mechanics and i'm saying he's wrong. And that's not even mentioning the 3 other wipe the whole raid mechanics: slubs (if your assigned slubbers screw up everyone dies), poison payload management and if everyone doesn't stun break or the druid doesn't cleanse fast enough everyone gets feared into poison during aoe fear.
-
> @"Hex.8714" said:
> Those people that are complaining that raids are too difficult and too inaccessible and elitist simply dont want to make any effort on their end and they just want to join raids with their open world pve build and expect to get carried. The truth is gw2 raids are extremly easy and can be completed with literally 1000 ping because theres very few one shot attacks that will insta kill you like in some other games, its just mini mechanics that you have to know to not wipe the group. Raids do not require much mechanical skill at all, so even " bad players" can complete them easely especially with meta boon stacked comps + 2 healers, i repeat you dont need skill to do raids in gw2.
>
> So how do you get into raids with 0 experience? Well first of all you need to at least make yourself useful and pick a role that will help your group, joining raids isint much about you but about the group, how can you make yourself useful? The easiest role is DPS, you want to pick a meta build from snowcrows website and learn the rotation on the golem. Most classes have a viable dps build, if your class isint a top tier dps, it can surely have another role like boons/heals. Then you simply wait till a group asks for that specific role on the lfg. If you can multi class and gear up multiple chars you will find a group alot faster.
>
> Then you want to watch some video guides of boss encounters or if you are too lazy like me, you can join groups that say semi+ exp or dont ask for KP. Now listen to this, this is very important what im gonna say, it only takes literally about 3 wipes for you to learn all boss mechanics assuming you get it at least to 50%, 25% or 10% depending on the boss. The scary part is only the initial part when you re totally clueless, after 3 pulls you wont be clueless anymore, dont be afraid to join groups.
>
> What happens if you get kicked? Nothing happens, dont try to whisper the commander and dont be mad just join another group, as I said it only takes 2-3 pulls for you to learn. I rarely see people getting kicked, some people tell some total bs stories that I ve never seen myself of heard of. Ive literally played a DPS class with with some rare pieces for the first 3 weeks and only got kicked once because it was SH and I was playing power DPS instead of condi. Most grps wont kick you for bad dps, they will only kick if you wipe the group, like dropping poison on grp at matt or bombing group at dhum etc.
>
> Another easy way to get into raids is just to always keep an eye on lfg for training groups but you might have to wait a long time for that for the specific raid that you want, id suggest just joining the semi exp ones or the ones that dont ask for KP assuming you did some research about the mechanics.
>
> Then obviously people ask how do they find groups when they have the experience but dont have much KP. You can either be honest with the commander and tell them you are a good player and to give you a chance and if you mess up tell them to feel free to kick you out. Or you can use fake KP like alot of people do since lets be real nobody carries all boss tokens on all their characters. Id suggest using fake KP only if you can do close to SC benchmark and are a good player otherwise it will be too obvious, just be honest and try to not join super high KP grps until you have some or until you get more experience.
>
> So quick recap on how to get into raids with 0 experience:
> step 1: get rid of your open world pve build and find a meta raid build that you like on snowcrows website
> step 2: practice the dps rotation on the golem
> step 3: watch videos or guides of raid bosses then join semi exp/ training / non kp groups
> step 4: learn from your failures, as I said it will only take you 2-3 pulls to learn all boss mechanics
>
>
> Gw2 raids are easy, people are just lazy and dont want to adapt or change their build, obviously some players are just bad but they dont want to admit but the majority are just too lazy, I was even too lazy to watch any guides I would just join and hope for the best, it still ended up working because gw2 raids are a joke. So dont be afraid to try, theres nothing elite or hardcore about raids, the truth is hardcore players dont play this game. Have fun in raids.
>
>
>
>
>
>
Dude theres just so much wrong with this i don't even know where to begin. Sloth stomp is a practical 1 shot mechanic. I've been working on my gear set for months (diviners) and how often do you actually see training runs in LFG? This is me just skimming as this really comes across as an elitist chew out. How about you make a youtube documentary on a completely new account with nothing you have now trying to do a role that uses concentration stats without being carried? And don't cut out any of the time you spend waiting for a training run to pop.
Also i have plenty experience raiding in other games and can tell you that both the amount of time it takes to get the appropriate gear for the core roles (boon support (tank or dps) and healing support) is way too long and the amount of mechanics for non challenge mode raids is way too high. The issue i'm seeing stepping into them is they were designed for very experienced, bored players even at base level and it's not aging well as churn is happening in the player base. The challenge modes should be for elitists' satisfaction and normal modes should be doable in readily purchasable exotic gear with coherent stats (i.e stacks a damage trinity, toughness or healing). Kiss this game mode good bye with that attitude as it gradually rots even more.
Also the LFG tool doesn't even give players enough control over their party. You have no idea when forming a group if a player even has the stats necessary for the role they're playing, let alone keep them out as you can just join anything you want. If you weren't playing a +concentration build you were being carried by people who did more work than you. Congrats!
I also want to argue that raiding isn't aging well in MMOs across the board. It was supposed to be a learning experience for a guild or group of players to tackle together back in early wow/eq days, you didn't have all these content creators giving you the strategy for every encounter and the roflstomp optimizations. Now raiding, as you've even acknowledged is basically homework: read all this crap, watch this video too many times then you can finally play the game. When i played in early wow i was working on my builds amd strategies in game. The last map of the previous lw season feels more like raiding is supposed to be because it actually requires players working together in game instead of memorizing a bunch of home work.
-
> @"LucianDK.8615" said:
> > @"Firebeard.1746" said:
> > > @"LucianDK.8615" said:
> > > You need second map completion, no way around it
> >
> > Feeding their character slot business model then?
>
> not like its hard to drop x79 tomes of knowledge on a throw away char, kit them out in cheapies and run hot. With a skyscale its over before you know it.
I'm not arguing it's hard, i'm just noticing that there's a hard cap of 5 from each expansion unless you buy more slots. Not that it really matters for me, because i'm not rich enough to make any leggies right now, but just noting. Also, i'm okay with them monetizing their game, a one and done purchase isn't enough to keep the lights on, i just get fed up if it's predatory.
-
> @"LucianDK.8615" said:
> You need second map completion, no way around it
Feeding their character slot business model then?
-
> @"maddoctor.2738" said:
> Wing 2 is one of the hardest wings imo but do you mean you tried Slothasor or Matthias?
I've actually done both. I joined once in the middle and we failed Matthias and the other time we just got stuck on sloth. But why is one of the intro raids one of the hardest? That's just ridiculous, especially considering the experimental armor is gated behind it.
-
Strikes will fail in their goal of bringing more players into raids. They built raids for bored people in t4 CM mode fractals, not for players new to the game. In addition to mechanics more difficult than other MMOs, the gear requirements are kind of crazy. It literally takes months to build an ascended set for a given role (or even exotic set with +conc, but tbh, the exotic gears with selectable stats are less accessible than some ascended), so just jumping and learning them doesn't really get you anywhere. Gearing for raids (at least in WoW, the other MMO I played) takes maybe a month and a lot of your gear can often be shared between roles if you cover more than 1 base on a single character.
They should tweak the overtuned raids (Salvation Pass I can definitely say is), make the raid lobby like the PVP lobby, where you can freely pick a build/stats. Make it so your gear setup only matters in CM mode of raids. If the elites cry too much, buff their CM modes' difficulty so they can feel super uber. Otherwise newer players wanting to get into raids will try a few times, miserably fail because of support roles missing +conc or even due to mechanics that punish a single player dying too heavily and they just can't find enough experienced players.
-
Second go at Salvation pass yesterday (the only raid I've done), and I laugh in the face of anyone saying GW2 raids are heroic level for WoW. Nope did multiple heroic tiers, and just nope. That one is definitely mythic (if WoW even has mechanics difficult enough to compare).
So I'm curious if I should even bother with them, can experienced players please rate raids in terms of difficulty? I just need to know where Salvation pass stands. A raid or two at that level is fine, more than that, screw it, I can get 2g another way, and if Anet thinks gating Leggies behind them is going to get everyone to do them, it's just going to kill their game.
-
> @"SkyShroud.2865" said:
> > @"Firebeard.1746" said:
> > > @"SkyShroud.2865" said:
> > > > @"Firebeard.1746" said:
> > > > > @"SkyShroud.2865" said:
> > > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said:
> > > > > > > @"Strider Pj.2193" said:
> > > > > > > > @"SkyShroud.2865" said:
> > > > > > > > Personally, I never thought gw2 community is awesome. Not because it has some toxic individuals, every game has those. It is just simple lack the feeling of a community. There is no real reason to interact with people much. You can get a lot of things done without needs to interact. A guild which supposedly be the center of a community building is just a useless LFG like existence here in gw2. Gw2 take all kinds of politics out of the game because they want a "friendly" community but you end up with a superficial community. The gw2 community boost about how social the game is but all that social lack sense of closeness. The community go hype about how amazing the subset of gw2 is (like wvw or raid) but forget that great majority are not. The kind of game design attract and encourage the same kind of people that make up the community. All the nostalgic feelings I had in other mmorpgs, not one or two mmorpgs but a couple, can't be found in this game at all now. The current Gw2 is not a game made to support community but rather people that come and go. Which now I see the real model of the game design. Anet want people to buy gw2 and then leave after you done so they do not have to continue maintain costly infrastructures to support large amount of players.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > They’ve actually made it less important by reducing the relative effectiveness of combos from multiple players, along with allowing more and more content to be solo’able.
> > > > > > I think megaserver change was way more impactful. Up until that point, i could recognize a lot of players i was doing events with, and some of them recognized me. The same with guilds - inter-guild recognition was better, and not only at the level of the biggest guilds out there. But then all servers got merged, and it all disappeared almost overnight.
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > The greatest impact to guild is multi-chat. It basically take away the importance of guild completely and transform guild into an LFG existence. At first I was hopeful they would do something to empower the guild even after the multi-chat dropped because of the guild dev team but boom, they drop the guild dev team too. Since then, Gw2 is already walking towards the path of doom. Anet already abandoned gw2 and put it on maintenance mode, a routine development cycle and not innovating the game anymore.
> > > > >
> > > > > Well, 9 days more to go to the new game.
> > > >
> > > > So you're saying you're not finding anything about the new episode innovative at all?
> > >
> > > It is just a story, what features did it add to the game? It just gonna become part of the many living story maps we already have.
> > >
> > > The original living story approach was way more impressive and immersive than now.
> >
> > It added strikes for one. I didn't experience season 1 so i wouldn't know. I just see lots of people raving about how fun the metas are in the current season. One of the things i like about this game is that it's almost like Skyrim: there's a lot of different open world activities i can choose from, it's all up to you (and sometimes how many people are around which sucks sometimes.) But on your note of season one, they've alluded they want to take a similar approach.
> >
> > I mean has WoW innovated at all by your definition? It always had M+ and raids aince the previous expansion. It just added new ones. The azerite stuff is non-account wide chores. What game are you going to and how does it innovate over old content by your definition? I'm curious, maybe i'll take a look. Maybe i won't because the developers will turn out to be just as abusive as WoW in terms of how they treat my time and/or money.
>
> It is a difference of perspective, you don't know since you got no reference for comparison. You simply a new guy that think everything is great while the old guys who seen the up and downs will naturally not think so. Concert which what people praise for isn't a meta and no matter how interesting it was, no people gonna repeatedly doing it that for days. The twitch viewerships still remains at all times low, reddit online count still dropping, nothing has changed.
Ha well you're not interested in actually discussing features, just want to put people into boxes. got it. I can get being tired of a game you play forever, but I was trying to be objective and you are not.
-
> @"Daroon.1736" said:
> > @"Firebeard.1746" said:
> > > @"Daroon.1736" said:
> > > They had the right approach with season 1 to keeping things fresh but because fans complained they abandoned what was an excellent system of transitory content. Fact is they really should have persevered.
> > >
> > > For proof, look at the success of Fortnite. Even though the gameplay is much less sophisticated than GW2 or other MMO's - the map changes every couple of weeks - skins come and go, areas come and go and one time events with associated rewards come and go. It's just accepted that If you weren't there and didn't get that rare skin or play during an event, well tough. 250 Million players aren't whining because they missed content, they just focus on playing the latest content because it is understood that it is transitory and NOW is the only time you can play it.
> > >
> > > It's also a pretty good formula for a successful in game store that funds the constant development.
> > >
> > > Sadly just one of the areas where GW really dropped the ball.
> > >
> >
> > Wait so are you arguing season 1 was better because it's not repeatable? Not because it actually had better content? That's a tad non sequitur imo. Even in other mmos i can play through old storylines and content. And given how focused maps are on metas, it's entirely possible to not be able to do things based on metas later on when the content goes stale. So you're still kind of getting what you want, but in a roundabout way.
> >
> > Also fortnite is not an mmo. The only permanent thing you earn are skins and they only mean something when you're playing matches. This is how Mobas got old fast for me and why i don't care for royale. There wasn't any real progression or even a world for me to chill in and enjoy what I've earned, it always came with the pressure of a match.
> >
> > Don't get me wrong, i like the idea of seasonal items/transmogs and mechanics added to fractals, raids, pvp and WvW. I've even suggested this in other threads. I just don't think removing story content is good for mmos.
>
> Nowhere did I use the word 'Better' - What I said was 'Keeping things fresh'
>
> Also Fortnight is not an MMO? Seriously! - I think you are confusing your terms. MMO=Massively multiplayer online game - I'll presume you mean MMORPG? which is, very loosely the closest term to describe GW2, though the amount of Role Play that I see taking place in GW is Virtually non existent.
I didn't say you said better, I was trying to interpret what you were going for and I guess we agree on some level, I just don't want that particular mechanic to be LWS related. I think that seasonal mechanics and rewards should be every 3ish months, LWseasons span 6mos to a year. Any no, anything that isn't persistent isn't an MMO in my opinion, by your definition D3 is an MMO. But that's griping about technical definitions and irrelevant.
-
> @"Daroon.1736" said:
> They had the right approach with season 1 to keeping things fresh but because fans complained they abandoned what was an excellent system of transitory content. Fact is they really should have persevered.
>
> For proof, look at the success of Fortnite. Even though the gameplay is much less sophisticated than GW2 or other MMO's - the map changes every couple of weeks - skins come and go, areas come and go and one time events with associated rewards come and go. It's just accepted that If you weren't there and didn't get that rare skin or play during an event, well tough. 250 Million players aren't whining because they missed content, they just focus on playing the latest content because it is understood that it is transitory and NOW is the only time you can play it.
>
> It's also a pretty good formula for a successful in game store that funds the constant development.
>
> Sadly just one of the areas where GW really dropped the ball.
>
Wait so are you arguing season 1 was better because it's not repeatable? Not because it actually had better content? That's a tad non sequitur imo. Even in other mmos i can play through old storylines and content. And given how focused maps are on metas, it's entirely possible to not be able to do things based on metas later on when the content goes stale. So you're still kind of getting what you want, but in a roundabout way.
Also fortnite is not an mmo. The only permanent thing you earn are skins and they only mean something when you're playing matches. This is how Mobas got old fast for me and why i don't care for royale. There wasn't any real progression or even a world for me to chill in and enjoy what I've earned, it always came with the pressure of a match.
Don't get me wrong, i like the idea of seasonal items/transmogs and mechanics added to fractals, raids, pvp and WvW. I've even suggested this in other threads. I just don't think removing story content is good for mmos.
-
> @"SkyShroud.2865" said:
> > @"Firebeard.1746" said:
> > > @"SkyShroud.2865" said:
> > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said:
> > > > > @"Strider Pj.2193" said:
> > > > > > @"SkyShroud.2865" said:
> > > > > > Personally, I never thought gw2 community is awesome. Not because it has some toxic individuals, every game has those. It is just simple lack the feeling of a community. There is no real reason to interact with people much. You can get a lot of things done without needs to interact. A guild which supposedly be the center of a community building is just a useless LFG like existence here in gw2. Gw2 take all kinds of politics out of the game because they want a "friendly" community but you end up with a superficial community. The gw2 community boost about how social the game is but all that social lack sense of closeness. The community go hype about how amazing the subset of gw2 is (like wvw or raid) but forget that great majority are not. The kind of game design attract and encourage the same kind of people that make up the community. All the nostalgic feelings I had in other mmorpgs, not one or two mmorpgs but a couple, can't be found in this game at all now. The current Gw2 is not a game made to support community but rather people that come and go. Which now I see the real model of the game design. Anet want people to buy gw2 and then leave after you done so they do not have to continue maintain costly infrastructures to support large amount of players.
> > > > >
> > > > > They’ve actually made it less important by reducing the relative effectiveness of combos from multiple players, along with allowing more and more content to be solo’able.
> > > > I think megaserver change was way more impactful. Up until that point, i could recognize a lot of players i was doing events with, and some of them recognized me. The same with guilds - inter-guild recognition was better, and not only at the level of the biggest guilds out there. But then all servers got merged, and it all disappeared almost overnight.
> > > >
> > >
> > > The greatest impact to guild is multi-chat. It basically take away the importance of guild completely and transform guild into an LFG existence. At first I was hopeful they would do something to empower the guild even after the multi-chat dropped because of the guild dev team but boom, they drop the guild dev team too. Since then, Gw2 is already walking towards the path of doom. Anet already abandoned gw2 and put it on maintenance mode, a routine development cycle and not innovating the game anymore.
> > >
> > > Well, 9 days more to go to the new game.
> >
> > So you're saying you're not finding anything about the new episode innovative at all?
>
> It is just a story, what features did it add to the game? It just gonna become part of the many living story maps we already have.
>
> The original living story approach was way more impressive and immersive than now.
It added strikes for one. I didn't experience season 1 so i wouldn't know. I just see lots of people raving about how fun the metas are in the current season. One of the things i like about this game is that it's almost like Skyrim: there's a lot of different open world activities i can choose from, it's all up to you (and sometimes how many people are around which sucks sometimes.) But on your note of season one, they've alluded they want to take a similar approach.
I mean has WoW innovated at all by your definition? It always had M+ and raids aince the previous expansion. It just added new ones. The azerite stuff is non-account wide chores. What game are you going to and how does it innovate over old content by your definition? I'm curious, maybe i'll take a look. Maybe i won't because the developers will turn out to be just as abusive as WoW in terms of how they treat my time and/or money.
-
> @"SkyShroud.2865" said:
> > @"Astralporing.1957" said:
> > > @"Strider Pj.2193" said:
> > > > @"SkyShroud.2865" said:
> > > > Personally, I never thought gw2 community is awesome. Not because it has some toxic individuals, every game has those. It is just simple lack the feeling of a community. There is no real reason to interact with people much. You can get a lot of things done without needs to interact. A guild which supposedly be the center of a community building is just a useless LFG like existence here in gw2. Gw2 take all kinds of politics out of the game because they want a "friendly" community but you end up with a superficial community. The gw2 community boost about how social the game is but all that social lack sense of closeness. The community go hype about how amazing the subset of gw2 is (like wvw or raid) but forget that great majority are not. The kind of game design attract and encourage the same kind of people that make up the community. All the nostalgic feelings I had in other mmorpgs, not one or two mmorpgs but a couple, can't be found in this game at all now. The current Gw2 is not a game made to support community but rather people that come and go. Which now I see the real model of the game design. Anet want people to buy gw2 and then leave after you done so they do not have to continue maintain costly infrastructures to support large amount of players.
> > >
> > > They’ve actually made it less important by reducing the relative effectiveness of combos from multiple players, along with allowing more and more content to be solo’able.
> > I think megaserver change was way more impactful. Up until that point, i could recognize a lot of players i was doing events with, and some of them recognized me. The same with guilds - inter-guild recognition was better, and not only at the level of the biggest guilds out there. But then all servers got merged, and it all disappeared almost overnight.
> >
>
> The greatest impact to guild is multi-chat. It basically take away the importance of guild completely and transform guild into an LFG existence. At first I was hopeful they would do something to empower the guild even after the multi-chat dropped because of the guild dev team but boom, they drop the guild dev team too. Since then, Gw2 is already walking towards the path of doom. Anet already abandoned gw2 and put it on maintenance mode, a routine development cycle and not innovating the game anymore.
>
> Well, 9 days more to go to the new game.
So you're saying you're not finding anything about the new episode innovative at all?
-
> @"Neosayayin.3498" said:
> I wish strike missions gave Legendary Insights and a new legendary armor came out tothe pve mode of the game but I know a lot of raiders are gone get mad because of this. The rewards for this mode are boring and Arenanet are giving the same rewards in all of the PVE events. The rewards are useless but if you give non raiders a way to get a legendary armor(with out animation) the people are gone do strikes more often.
The LIs are only half the battle with the armor, you still have to raid for the achievement unlock that gives you the first set. So it really wouldn't matter either way, you're still stepping into raids.
-
> @"Zaraki.5784" said:
> > @"knite.1542" said:
> > > @"blade eyes.2034" said:
> > > community, guilds in gw2 are dead, guild mission has been the same since 2013. I don't care about world bosses with zerg of strangers that I don't know, who mindlessly farm for more gold.
> >
> > Eh, communities aren't really dead. I think it just seems that way to a lot of people because of significant portion of the community interactions don't really happen in game. A lot of it is on discord, for example. Some on reddit, some on the forums, ect. **You just gotta find it.**
>
> The bold part is the worst.
> It's not the new player who should look for social interactions in an MMO, the game should throw those interactions towards the player imho.
I think discord is actually killing mmos by moving the interactions away from the game itself.
Rate raids in terms of difficulty
in Instanced Group Content
Posted
> @"Cyninja.2954" said:
> > @"Firebeard.1746" said:
> > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:
> > > > @"Firebeard.1746" said:
> > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:
> > > > > > @"Firebeard.1746" said:
> > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:
> > > > > > > > @"Firebeard.1746" said:
> > > > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:
> > > > > > > > > > @"Firebeard.1746" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Yes, WoW raids after 15 years (and on a different patch cycle, classic is 1.12, WoW vanilla didn't launch with 1.12) and vast optimization and experience the vanilla raids were cleared very fast. MC was never a difficult raid (nor did it require 40 Players, given how always around 20 were semi afk), that title goes to Naxx40 and even there it was mostly due to gear.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Those raids are not mythic nor are they heroic and they are certainly not balanced for 40 people (and if you had watched the MC classic clear, you would have seen that all sub 60 players were dead most of the time, they were literally just along for minor dps increase since vanilla raids did not scale).
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > So yes, after 15 years, I'm quite sure GW2 raids would be just as optimized. Actually they are now given how most raid wings were cleared in below 20 minutes WITH challenge modes last ERP3.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > I'm sorry you are having such a hard time adapting to this game. The raids are still not difficult.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > This is a bit non sequitur. You led with Vanilla being more difficult then said it wasn't in the next post. The reality of Vanilla being difficult was just that people were learning the game whereas Anet dropped them on an already experienced and geared community. You're just disagreeing to disagree.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I never said vanilla MC, and even then, that raid toll vadtsy longer when it was new and takes vastly longer now.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > You are comparing absolute power gamers in WoW Calssic to GW2. I took the equivalent GW2 players and compared them. The ERP3 tournament is not even 1 month past.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > @"Firebeard.1746" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > @"Firebeard.1746" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > And that's just the raids themselves. In game, the GW2 community is not as enthusiastic about them (i,e harder to find people willing to do them), and gearing up for something that isn't a core stat configuration from Core Tyria takes a non trivial amount of time compared to WoW.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Which might be relevant to group composition, but is irrelevant to actual skill required.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Gearing up ANYTHING in GW2 is absolutely trivial. Both if you decide to use budget builds or if you make use of all content provided. It literally takes no more than a few hours for max gear (exotic armor, ascended weapons+trinkets).
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > So as far as this goes i've spent more time than you've mentioned gathering Lws3 mats for ascended gear (and even tossed pvp currency & laurels from TP vendors i didn't want to at some of those trinkets). The only way i could think this is true is if there's a gold based shortcut that a new person wouldn't be be able to take.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 1 ring is 200 Winterberries and 2k UM. 1 run through the winterberry forest is 3-5 minutes and yields 42-45 Winterberries and 600-700 UM (an additional 1k if those wintervrries are consummed).
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > This puts 1 ring at around 4-5 times 3-5 minutes. So aproximately 30 minutes per ascended ring.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > The same math can be done for trinkets and backpiece, which takes 40 minutes and around 1 hour. That is if using only this 1 farm and when starting from 0 winterberries. Using different maps, even daily resets, it takes an couple of minutes per day to around 4 hours on 1 day.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Thst is for best in slot trinkets (with all stats available).
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Gearing in GW2 is a non issue for people who put in the effort to acquire the knowledge how.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > @"Firebeard.1746" said:
> > > > > > > > > > What i've gathered so far is you're not trying to understand me while i'm trying to understand you. I've already discussed difficulty of the raids you claim gw2 doesn't match or barely matches(heroic) as a new player, yet you repeat your tired old line. We shouldn't be talking about mythic
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Because it doesn't. Heroic or Mythic in WoW is insanely hard for a new player on level gear. Most raid guilds either train people there or recruit established raiders, similar to GW2.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > All I see is someone who constantly tries to find some reason to comfort himself why the game is hard or he lacks success. I'm sorry, GW2 raids in normal mode (not even metioning CM) are not hard. They might be different, but they require no more or better or preciser execution than any other games raids. From a pure skill perspective, they are significantly easier.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > @"Firebeard.1746" said:
> > > > > > > > > > Cm should be where gw2's equivalent lives. I've found room to believe your opinion, yet you just don't listen when it comes to mine and in fact it's ridiculous you're trying to tell me i'm not experiencing what i'm experiencing.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I'm not disbelieving you or your claims about what you are experiencing. I'm disagreeing with you as to the cause or reason for your failures.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I can comfort you though, as a new raider and without proper guidance or help from experienced players, you are subject to many factors outside your direct control which will artificially make success harder. That's why most exprienced raiders tell people to find a guild which does trainings. It helps remove some of the initial issues and wrong habbits.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:
> > > > > > > > > > @"Firebeard.1746" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Yes, WoW raids after 15 years (and on a different patch cycle, classic is 1.12, WoW vanilla didn't launch with 1.12) and vast optimization and experience the vanilla raids were cleared very fast. MC was never a difficult raid (nor did it require 40 Players, given how always around 20 were semi afk), that title goes to Naxx40 and even there it was mostly due to gear.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Those raids are not mythic nor are they heroic and they are certainly not balanced for 40 people (and if you had watched the MC classic clear, you would have seen that all sub 60 players were dead most of the time, they were literally just along for minor dps increase since vanilla raids did not scale).
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > So yes, after 15 years, I'm quite sure GW2 raids would be just as optimized. Actually they are now given how most raid wings were cleared in below 20 minutes WITH challenge modes last ERP3.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > I'm sorry you are having such a hard time adapting to this game. The raids are still not difficult.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > This is a bit non sequitur. You led with Vanilla being more difficult then said it wasn't in the next post. The reality of Vanilla being difficult was just that people were learning the game whereas Anet dropped them on an already experienced and geared community. You're just disagreeing to disagree.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I never said vanilla MC, and even then, that raid toll vadtsy longer when it was new and takes vastly longer now.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > You are comparing absolute power gamers in WoW Calssic to GW2. I took the equivalent GW2 players and compared them. The ERP3 tournament is not even 1 month past.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > @"Firebeard.1746" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > @"Firebeard.1746" said:
> > > > > > > > > > > > And that's just the raids themselves. In game, the GW2 community is not as enthusiastic about them (i,e harder to find people willing to do them), and gearing up for something that isn't a core stat configuration from Core Tyria takes a non trivial amount of time compared to WoW.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Which might be relevant to group composition, but is irrelevant to actual skill required.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Gearing up ANYTHING in GW2 is absolutely trivial. Both if you decide to use budget builds or if you make use of all content provided. It literally takes no more than a few hours for max gear (exotic armor, ascended weapons+trinkets).
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > So as far as this goes i've spent more time than you've mentioned gathering Lws3 mats for ascended gear (and even tossed pvp currency & laurels from TP vendors i didn't want to at some of those trinkets). The only way i could think this is true is if there's a gold based shortcut that a new person wouldn't be be able to take.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 1 ring is 200 Winterberries and 2k UM. 1 run through the winterberry forest is 3-5 minutes and yields 42-45 Winterberries and 600-700 UM (an additional 1k if those wintervrries are consummed).
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > This puts 1 ring at around 4-5 times 3-5 minutes. So aproximately 30 minutes per ascended ring.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > The same math can be done for trinkets and backpiece, which takes 40 minutes and around 1 hour. That is if using only this 1 farm and when starting from 0 winterberries. Using different maps, even daily resets, it takes an couple of minutes per day to around 4 hours on 1 day.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Thst is for best in slot trinkets (with all stats available).
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Gearing in GW2 is a non issue for people who put in the effort to acquire the knowledge how.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > @"Firebeard.1746" said:
> > > > > > > > > > What i've gathered so far is you're not trying to understand me while i'm trying to understand you. I've already discussed difficulty of the raids you claim gw2 doesn't match or barely matches(heroic) as a new player, yet you repeat your tired old line. We shouldn't be talking about mythic
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Because it doesn't. Heroic or Mythic in WoW is insanely hard for a new player on level gear. Most raid guilds either train people there or recruit established raiders, similar to GW2.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > All I see is someone who constantly tries to find some reason to comfort himself why the game is hard or he lacks success. I'm sorry, GW2 raids in normal mode (not even metioning CM) are not hard. They might be different, but they require no more or better or preciser execution than any other games raids. From a pure skill perspective, they are significantly easier.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > @"Firebeard.1746" said:
> > > > > > > > > > Cm should be where gw2's equivalent lives. I've found room to believe your opinion, yet you just don't listen when it comes to mine and in fact it's ridiculous you're trying to tell me i'm not experiencing what i'm experiencing.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I'm not disbelieving you or your claims about what you are experiencing. I'm disagreeing with you as to the cause or reason for your failures.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I can comfort you though, as a new raider and without proper guidance or help from experienced players, you are subject to many factors outside your direct control which will artificially make success harder. That's why most exprienced raiders tell people to find a guild which does trainings. It helps remove some of the initial issues and wrong habbits.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Mc took insanely long to clear the first time and you've been talking clear times. Keep watching classic for comparison on other raids.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > All i see is someone criticizing someone learning the game and you're vastly understating farm route times. You usually agro something so combat time comes into play too. Also you practically hijacked the thread, and make up some random bs whenever i give you data points showing it's easier in WoW, like obviously if heroic is that much more difficult than gw2 raids, it makes no sense that was it cleared in 1 day in the presence of a vertical progressions grind. Even mythic previous tier didn't go that high in terms of ilvl. Keep criticizing me, calling me a noob indirectly. you're doing awesome at building a community around a game mode you supposedly love. This is basically harassment with doses of niceness when i call you out.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > If i'm such a noob, why don't i suck at WoW? This is rhetorical. I don't want to talk to you any further. Also most of my comments revolve around mechanics, however i do find gearing more difficult in GW2. It feels like you changed focus randomly.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > This game will never take the amount of time to clear as other games because power cap has already been hit and all the hardcore players know all 9 classes (half the forums in a separate poll). Any build is practically available to any hardcore players if they have all leggie trinkets and a leggie set of each armor type. Add in a decent collection of acended trinkets for your other 2 slots and you're golden. The only way to make a raid take as long as in WoW in the current system is to basically require so many mechanics that there's a low chance of any experienced player having the twitch reflexes to win it, even on a consistent basis after hatching a strategy. That sounds awful. And probably explains current raid design. Good day. I didn't mention my experiences in the two games in the op for the sake of discussion. My op was obviously asking a different question, any further discussion on this will be reported, it's obvious you feel threatened by other people's experiences/opinions and even data points, especially when they agree to disagree. I've already stated i understand where you're coming from.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Clear times gor WoW raids, top 20:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > - 1 Ouro - 87 days from the Twin Emperors' death. 26th April 2006.
> > > > > > > - 2 C'thun - 86 days from the Twin Emperors' death. 25th April 2006.
> > > > > > > - 3 tied Chromaggus - 74 days from Ebonroc's death. 25th September 2005.
> > > > > > > - 3 tied Ragnaros - 74 days from Majordomo Executus' death. 25th April 2005.
> > > > > > > - 5 Yogg-Saron, Alone in the Darkness - 70 days from Stars' first pull. 7th July 2009
> > > > > > > - 6 High Astromancer Solarian - 59 days from Magtheridon's death (unlocking the Eye). 24th April 2007
> > > > > > > - 7 The Four Horsemen - 56 days from Gothik's death to D&T's kill. August 25th 2006
> > > > > > > - 8 Al'ar - 48 days from Magtheridon's death. 13th April 2007
> > > > > > > - 9 The Lich King (Heroic 25) - 42 Days from Heroic Putricide's death (first pull). March 26th 2010
> > > > > > > - 10 Heroic Al'Akir 25 - 36 days from Heroic Conclave of Wind's death. January 22nd 2011.
> > > > > > > - 11 Kael'thas Sunstrider - 31 days from Solarian's death (first pull). 25th May 2007
> > > > > > > - 12 Magtheridon - 29 days from the first level 70 25-man raid. 24th February 2007
> > > > > > > - 13 Lady Vashj - 17 days from being unlocked. 29th March 2007
> > > > > > > - 14 Leotheras the Blind - 16 days from Hydross' death. 4th March 2007
> > > > > > > - 15 Loatheb - 14 days from Heigan's death. 17th July 2006
> > > > > > > - 16 tied Heigan the Unclean - 13 days from Noth the Plaguebringer's death. 3rd July 2006
> > > > > > > - 16 tied Hydross the Unstable - 13 days from Gruul's death (Unlocking Serpentshrine). 16th February 2007
> > > > > > > - 16 tied Heroic Cho'gall - 13 days from Heroic Ascendant Council's death. 15th January 2011.
> > > > > > > - 16 tied Heroic Nefarian - 13 days from Heroic Atramedes' death. January 9th 2011.
> > > > > > > - 20 tied Archimonde - 10 days from Azgalor's death. 9th June 2007
> > > > > > > - 20 tied Gothik the Harvester - 10 days from Instructor Razuvious' death. 30th June 2006
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Compared to the most difficult boss in GW2, Dhuum:
> > > > > > > World first kill by SC after 2 days.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Yes, and GW2 wing1 also took insanely long compared to how difficult it is. Still was only 1 week if I recall, maybe even shorter. Both games had new raid communities develope which got progressively better. GW2 raid kills times shrunk to hours, WoW to multiple days. I'm not seeing it.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I gave you a very realistic farm route. If you are unable to clear the winterberry forest in the presence of mounts, movement skills, unlimited harvesting tools and a muktitude of other people running through, that is on you. I was very generous with the 5 minute estimate. I'm not saying it is impossible to take long to gear a character if using ineffizient approaches, I'm saying (and providing an example) of how an efficient time frame would look like.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > You are correct though, no reason to continue this discussion. You are absolutely convinced the game is at fault and far to difficult. You'll either improve and clear raids or quit, which justification you use to continue or quite is no concern of mine.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > trolololol your most recent kill is from 12 year ago, really? When Heroic = mythic? lolololololololl, and I've been talking about the last 2 years this whole darn time? Dude, this is evidence you're not listening and just trolling. It's hilarious the poster above me is worshipping you!
> > > > >
> > > > > Fine, Ghuun took 8 days until first kill by Method, current Mythic BfA raid boss. Better?
> > > > >
> > > > > Compared to 4.5 hours for wing 7 CM.
> > > > >
> > > > > With 285 pulls until success against around 10-20.
> > > >
> > > > And vertical progression to tackle to boot?
> > >
> > > Would not make up a disparitiy of close to 40x (8 days/4.5 hours). Also those 4.5 hours were for an entire wing, not only 1 boss.
> >
> > It does when they're using it to beat the vertical progression curve. As I've previously stated. I get where this argument comes from now, a guy talking about WoW 10 years ago vs. me talking about it now.
>
> I was raiding in Legion up to heroic. I known people who raid mythic.
>
> The only thing I can say is: you do not share a mindset with them. I've seldomly heard any of them complain about difficulty. It was always a challenge. That's my main issue tbh, the constant whinning on these forums of "great" players.
I never complained about WoW difficulty ever. Keep making more judgements about me.
Answer this, for the devs, what would you do, in light of power cap being reached, to make raids last longer if that's what you want? Are you looking to turn them into some crazy nightmare where your experienced players' reflexes have a 0.5% chance of succeeding so we get something like method?