Ahrya.3097

> @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > >! @"Ahrya.3097" said: > > >! **Scavenger's Chasm** (I don't recall if you need to find all 12 orbs to get the achievement, but doing so without a guide can be quite time consuming. There are no restrictions on mounts or gliders iirc which has made it much easier to do, but im assuming your going to be jumping old school style) > > >! You need 12 for the achievement, i think, but the orbs are not unique, and do not disappear unless used - meaning, you can get the easy ones, wait a day for all orbs to reset, get them again, and so on until you get 12 or more, and only then open the chests for achieve. Personally I would consider doing that a form of cheating the achievement, like taking a shortcut, because it prevents you from having to do the whole puzzle as intended, so I didn't mention it. Otherwise, you can again chuck scavanger's chasm in very easy and just come back each day grabbing the easiest orbs then complete it once you have enough. I think any difficulty tier list should assume the JP is being done as it was oringinally intended to be done.

Ha Ha, fairly close agreement between Dulfy's assessment and my own. Should point out though that Troll's End is not the same as Troll's Revenge. Troll's End was a JP that mainly took place underneath LA before LA was reconstructed during which Toll's End was removed and Troll's Revenge added.

There is no option to disable or turn off the glider. Personally posted and asked for such an option perviously and am aware it has been asked for by others as well, fingers crossed I guess :s

> @"ugrakarma.9416" said: > >! im completing old achievments left behind > >! > >! i need completing these jumping puzzles, but i would like start from easier ones. > >! > >! i will be grateful if anyone make a "rank" with this list, or more simple: divide them in "tiers" of dificult. > >! > >! i really have no clue which ones are "harder", i had seem people on LA talking about this "trolls revenge" like if is was a hell. > >! > >! -Behem Gauntlet > >! -Chaos Crystal Cavern > >! -Craze's Folly > >! -Emerald Sanctum > >! -Goemm's Lab > >! -Grendich Gamble > >! -Hidden Garden > >! -King Jalis's Refuge > >! -Loreclaw Expanse > >! -Only Zuhl > >! -Professor Portmatt's Lab > >! -Sapphire Sanctum > >! -Scavenger's Chasm > >! -Spelunker's Delve > >! -Troll's Revenge > >! -Under New Management I'm assuming you'll be tackling these as they were intended to be done which means no shortcuts, no position rewind, no glider, no mount, just jumping. Otherwise you may aswell put them all in the very easy category and just use youtube to find mount/glider skips. As has been pointed out, peoples varying skill level will give them a different impression of difficulty so i've just tried to compare the JPs to each other. I would only really consider troll's revenge to be somewhat difficult of the ones you've listed, maybe try the "go for the gold" achievement in silverwastes without the mount and glider if that's still too easy for you (noticed you've already done not so secret). ##The worst JP ever made: >! **Professor Portmatt's Lab** (it's not even a JP, you don't jump once, it's all underwater solving a pita puzzle that you almost certainly want the wiki open for. Should be reclassified as a mini dungeon) ##Very Easy: >! **Behem Gauntlet** (you just progressively fall down, can actually complete it without jumping) >! **Grendich Gamble** (very short, only problem is getting a trebuchet to the face while climbing) >! **Spelunker's Delve** (veyr short, can't die, easy jumps; try going as fast as you can for some fun i guess) >! **Under New Management** (very short, can't die afaik, stop by skipping stones for a bit more challenge) ##Easy: >! **Craze's Folly** (no particularly hard jumps that i can think of and no where you can die / be set back a major amount) >! **King Jalis's Refuge** (only 1 section i see people messing up, jumping across pipes near the end) >! **Only Zuhl** (no particularly difficult jump, kamikaze crabs tho) ##Medium: >! **Chaos Crystal Cavern** (mainly because it messes with your camera and speed) >! **Emerald Sanctum** (wvw JP, pvp is probably the biggest difficulty depending on which colour your server is) >! **Sapphire Sanctum** (same as emerald, except you know... more blue... hypothetically speaking) >! **Hidden Garden** (can take a while to get into due to needing an event, dying means getting kicked out unless you res orb or map break in) >! **Loreclaw Expanse** (I see traps kill a fair few people when it is daily) ## Hard: >! **Goemm's Lab** (quite long with enviromental hazards that will put you in combat or chill you changing your speed or knock you off the puzzle back to a checkpoint) >! **Scavenger's Chasm** (I don't recall if you need to find all 12 orbs to get the achievement, but doing so without a guide can be quite time consuming. There are no restrictions on mounts or gliders iirc which has made it much easier to do, but im assuming your going to be jumping old school style) ## Very Hard: >! **Troll's Revenge** (the restrictions have not been placed on this JP because it takes place over a large section of lions arch, so now you can glide and mount to all 4 chests and the end chest with ease. Doing this puzzle without those crutches however; as it was originally intended to be done, is legitimately difficult. The correct way to go is quite obscure unless you can read terrain very well or follow a guide, some jumps are reasonably hard, you will walk on wires, there is a cheeky hazard that will knock you off about midway through, falling and not activating glider will kill you in some spots, falling and not using a mesmer or mount to return to your spot typically means restarting from the begining, it is very long for a JP in comparison to the usual standard, I think a reason they never put mount and gliding restrictions on it besides the disruption they would cause to Lion arch movement would be to allow it to become more casual) ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ I'll be interested to know if you end up agreeing or changing this ranking once you've done them ;)

Could maybe try vorpX, I've used it in the past for Border Lands 2, but it's only to get the game working visually in VR. Also it will probably require a fair bit of tweaking so you don't spill your guts within about 5 minutes of immersion. I never tried it for gw2 and there are probably other options out there by now so maybe look around?

**Regarding adequacy of current rewards and difficulty** > @"DeanBB.4268" said: >! >There are currently over 50 jumping puzzles, and I believe they all reward AP's when first completed. Cumulatively, that's enough for a reward chest (plus or minus, not sure they all reward 10 AP). I wouldn't want to see them changed to require some sort of check point or really anything to make them more difficult. If "time trial mode" or somesuch were to be added, just have that be above and beyond the normal JP requirements. >! >! >But really, this is Anet. When do they ever go back to change old things? Retreat! is not their motto, Charge! is! :) Not asking for them to be more difficult, asking for the option to do them as they were originally intended to be done for better rewards/ currency and the possibilty of time trials like the beetle races have; whilst also retaining the option to do them in their current state. All while removing the zones that have been brought up in other threads as disruptive to exploration. To me it seems anet tries to engage players in old content like JPs since daily JP is a thing as is daily activity. I think this would be a way of doing that outside of dailies and gives the JPs better repeatability, a bit more on par with other forgotten content like dungeons. ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ **Regarding promoting improvement of player skill**? this is more of an @"Mungo Zen.9364" > @"Mungo Zen.9364" said: >!>In general, I really like JP. I have completed all JP as intended multiple times, most before mounts came to be a thing (but I keep going back for fun). My comments below are thinking of future JP, not changing existing ones. >!> I am thinking of the Siren's Landing JP and Draconis Mons JP as being challenging JP that do have recall mechanics via checkpoints. These appear to be examples of Anet learning from prior JP like Ember Bay. However, those three JP have a higher challenge than most JP available before them and I would anticipate them being difficult for players regardless of the checkpoints; they require a certain level of skill to accomplish. >!> While the suggestions the OP presented do have merit, the skill level of the player in using the terrain and character physics is where the focus should be. What is the difference between a player dying and running back at Not So Secret JP or them falling and resetting on the JP closer than a WP? They save time but they still have to repeat part or all of the JP. It does give them the opportunity to learn more about the JP and JP skill in general but I question if it is a learning tool or a crutch. >!> The common complaints are JP are too hard, as OP pointed out "pixel perfect" is how hard some claim they are. What would these proposed changes do for changing the mentality of players trying the JP? A hard jump is a hard jump regardless. If I jump, fall and reset to the beginning of the puzzle or some arbitrary checkpoint, I still have to make that next jump and cannot proceed until I do. >!> In short, I believe that the OP suggestions promote repeated learning attempts at a single JP, while they do not change the difficulty of the JP, and that I approve of. However, as the difficulty doesn't change, that means that there will be a portion of the player base asking for nerfs to JP to match their skill level. >!> What is a way that the game could promote learning how to manipulate the physics of player and terrain, to increase player skill level in this area, and get better at the JP? So the idea is fail quicker and it was brought up in the previous thread I addressed at the begining of this one. The best way for someone to get better at something is to practice the parts they find difficult. If there is a long arduous road in getting to those parts, the process of practice becomes frustrating and off putting. Why is a game like Bennett Foddy's Getting Over It so irritating and prone to provoking rage quitting? Because it exploits this by doing the complete opposite of enabling quicker failing. If you fail in that game at one part you are finding hard, you are likely to loose a huge amount of progress if not be put back at the start. In regards to JPs, I've seen it many times in custom Guild Hall JPs, where if someone falls at a spot; they jump on their skyscale and go right back to where they fell and reattempt it. If they fall in NSS, they might try 5 more times and then call it a day or a month or possibly not ever return to it. The question you ask at the end about promoting learning; well I think that is first tacked by removing the frustration from the process and I believe the changes I've proposed will allow people the crutches they might need to engage in what is currently for them inaccessible practice. Obviously this will not appease everyone, and there will still be people with the "too hard" mentality but if you have a perfect fix that satisfiess everyone, I'm all ears for it. ~~ ~~ ~~ ~~ **Regarding Self Interest:** > @"mindcircus.1506" said: >!> The Community getting upset about not being able to trivialize content is not a reason to stop them from trivializing it. Imagine if the developers has said "oh well we cannot possibly stop AB Multiloot now, people would get upset" (and many people did). This is. after all, a method of people getting rewards (JP chests, daily completion, achievements) that they are not earning. Your proposed changes would be a perfect place to close this issue out, however you stop short either because you think (rightfully) that it would make your suggestions unpopular or it would put your tip money from being a "a daily JP porter" at risk. >!> The absolute first thing Anet would need to do to make this content legitimate and devote more resources to things like increased rewards, challenge modes, time trials, is close down the way players are exploiting mesmer portals to cheese each other through the content. Then they would need to put an end to the mount skips that exist for just about every JP. >!> The fact that you have suggested a system that would address these issues but have chosen to muddy the waters with some sort of facility to keep skipping players to rewards and achievements they have not earned removes pretty much all value from your suggestion to me. >!> Seems just like another self-interested suggestion in a forum filled with them. So the amount of tip money porters get is miniscule in comparison to other activities in game. Personally I don't ask for tips, I say thankyou when I get them, and I return the excess of 1g back to the player on the rare occasion someone gives more. Probably 90% of people don't tip. I also only really bother porting daily when there is only 1 other doing it. So again about 90% of the time I am just hanging around at the end interacting with people and helping those who ask for assistance in learning how to do the JP the intended way. The other place I've been tipped is NSS where I try to checkpoint people up the JP, not port them to the end. I essentially mentor them on the way up and teach them how to do some of the more annoying jumps or ones that require tricks like the gears on the way to the goggles which are just straight up broken. Again I don't ask for tips and anything that's excessive gets mailed back. Unless they insist and they keep sending it. I could do without the tip money, it's really not an income I rely on and I don't much care for having stuff in this game. Played on and off since 2012 on 2 differenct accounts and never once had a legendary lol. I just don't care for that stuff; I like developing skills, exploring and interacting; that's where my fun comes from in this game. It's that interaction part that I see best displayed at daily JPs where people are just there to get their daily done and are thankful for the people who stick around to expediate that process. I don't think there is much more difficulty in other dailies like interact with a vista or mine nodes in your home instance or guild hall that interacting with a mesmer portal becomes such an outlier and egrigous offender. I don't think the current rewards for JPs are anything to celebrate over either which is probably why their exploitability hasn't been a top priority for being adderssed. The restricted and time trial modes would return the integrity that you want and I also want, but I am trying to be diplomatic about it and strike some compromise that is beneficial for everyone. These devisive topics tend to lead to people being all one way or the other and the thread quickly degrades into ever louder shouting at each other that each sides respective stance is the correct one. That is not what I want, as Obi-Wan said "only a sith deals in absolutes". I think you'll find I'm more on your side than you know, but shutting down porting would be removing an emergent part of the game that fosters player interaction and does very little in the way of excessively rewarding the player. Also, how would you propose dealing with everyone who has already recieved the achievements and rewards? How would you distinguish between who completed the puzzles legitimately and who relied on assistance? Would you propose a complete wipe of jumping puzzle related achievements and ask everyone to go do them again, or just say from this date forth they have to be done legitimately while everyone else who got in before then can get away with it? That's why im saying add a second tier, with possible title as a reward, which is earned by doing them in restricted.

i think kharmin is saying the topic has been discussed before and so a new thread wasn't required. However, I think this is proabably the first time rebinding the key for the glider has been brought up as part of the main topic. Also unless the community facing members of anet staff have hyperthymesia, i think 8 months, and over a year before that is a decent enough time gap before bringing up the topic again? IDK maybe not. Not sure what the rules are around these parts on necroing threads or reposting an already discussed topic.

## Regarding over complication: >! > @"Randulf.7614" said: >! > Whilst I admire the originality of some of your ideas, it is over complicating something needlessly I dont think anything new is being done here except for the restricted and time trial modes I proposed. But these are also based on something that already has a version of it implemented in the game like we have seen with SAB races and beetle races which dont appear to be too compliacted for players. I expect that this would also minimise the amount of development time required. ## Regarding the JPs being hidden: >! > @"kharmin.7683" said: >! > Hidden JPs wouldn't stay hidden for very long. >! >! > @"Randulf.7614" said: >! > I’d rather see a focus on bringing the basic fun back and making them hidden again to discover I feel as though the "** You Are Entering An Area Where Mounts Are Not Allowed. Turn Back Or Be Dismounted**" that pops up when you get close to JPs kinda acts as a giant flashing billboard for a JP being nearby already. These suggestions would remove that, and for those without mounts who wouldn't see that message; well its business as usual, they don't have the mounts to be easily stumbling across these usually hidden areas. I do agree with Randulf that the better designed ones are those that are more seemlessly integrated into hidden areas of the map. Although I also understand Anet wanting to mix it up and having more open JPs. ## Regarding poorly designed JPs that are difficult to know where to go: >! > @"Randulf.7614" said: >! > The problem with some jps is that they aren’t well designed. I’ve done Chalice of Tears a few times abd un comparison is just naff. It’s not the jumping itself, it’s just the >! > mess of it... I think the time trial mode and its provision of checkpoints like the SAB race would act as a way to know where to go... these checkpoints could maybe also be optionally put in the unresticted mode. ## Regarding cheese of JPs: >! > @"mindcircus.1506" >! > Out of curiosity why do you feel it's a positive to allow one player to cheese another through the content? Were this a discussion being had in 2012 at the conception of the game, I'd probably be against it. However assisted cheesing of the content has been around since portals and has just gotten more prevalent with all the other mechanics added on top over time. I think at this point it is more or less an accepted and almost expected part of the GW2 community and taking it away would make many people quite angry. I am not suggesting anything that makes it more cheeseable than it already is, aside from maybe making it easier to practice. To actually get the achievements or rewards the JPs still need to be done at least in the way they currently exist. Then on top of that, I'm proposing modes that return some integrity to the JP achievements which require them to be done solo, without cheese and as they were originally intended to be done. However I strongly suggest the rewards for this remain JP related, and mastery points or the legendary collections are not shifted from the unrestricted mode to the restricted or time trial modes. Regarding the distribution of developer time, I already addressed that in the original post because I knew everyone on these forums have different priorities. I knew from lurking @"kharmin.7683" among other were likely to comment too and that they are not a fan of JPs. I'm just trying to provide perspective from the opposite side of someone who really enjoys them. I have tried to make sure my suggestions would require very little development time by picking from other features that already exist in the game and applying them to JPs. Also SAB is coming and development time is bound to be allocated to jumping related stuff and this is how I feel is the best it could be done; obviously aside form world 3 in SAB.

So a discussion was necro'd recently about the jumping puzzles being poorly designed and it goes over 3 pages: [thread](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/2785/how-to-make-better-jumping-puzzles/p1). Personally I think they're fine and the vast majority of players just don't practice jumping which is also fine because it's not really a conventional mmo thing. Though it is sad to me when that continuously leads to claims that anet is asking for pixel perfection, and that the core mechanics are broken; then subsequently that jumping puzzles should be simplified or removed. I go into why none of that is the case in the original thread but this digresses from why this thread is being made. I want to come at the issue from the angle that the JPs are mostly ok but maybe require some modernisation and to highlight some suggestions i've seen as well as my own. 1. First the no mount and no glide zones that are haphazardly plastered all over them should be removed. This prevents people from being annoyingly dismounted when just trying to explore the open world, and also allows for much easier recovery so that people can practice and explore the JPs to figure out which way to go and get better at tricky jumps. They are already unfit for purpose because they are easily bypassed. As a daily JP porter I see people bypassing the zones all the time. 2. An NPC is at the begining of the JPs with a key/transformation for being able to access the final chest, the chest is obviously locked and interactables that are intended to be reached through doing the JP are non-interactable unless the the player has the key/transformation (goggles at NSS, gold badges at retrospective runaround, orbs at scavangers chasm). 3. The player has 3 options, unrestricted, restricted, time trial: * **Unrestricted** places the no glide, no mount debuffs that currently get forced through zones on the player; but otherwise gives them full access to skills, interactions with other players, items like position rewinder etc (essentially allowing the JPs to be as they are now without the annoying zones). Having the key/transformation allows access to final chest and other interactables, and can be used for the daily JP / interactables / current crappy JP rewards while still allowing porters / helpers etc. * **Restricted** places both debuffs, unless its a JP where glider is intended, and gives players a set list of skills/traits (stability, stealth, swiftness, block etc... no targetted leaps, passive speed etc) whilst preventing interactions with other players and using items. This would ensure the JP is done as it was intended to be done when it was first introduced. A second tier added to the JP achievements for completing them in restricted (possible title for completing them all in restricted). Better rewards or a currency for a JP vendor like the beetle races have for skins, resources, minis, sellable vendor junk or title w/e (you decide what's fair compensation). * **Time trial** gives the same conditions as restricted but adds checkpoints that have to be passed through like the races in SAB (prevents speed runners pixel jumping and bypassing 80% of the JP). I figure either have tiered rewards (bronze, silver, gold) like adventures and beetle races and/or allow betting with payout every 3-4 hours (factors of 24) to the fastest 3-5 times. I think a betting thing could also be added to the beetle races and player/community made guild events (arena, custom JPs, custom beetle tracks etc) but that's a whole other thread. If betting is done, prevent winners from reentering for the day or week or some appropriate time frame inbetween. Again JP currency rewarded could also be considered and dependant on time trial performance. 4. (optional) when possessing the key/transformation, dying allows the player to restart at the begining like in griffon rook run or spekk's lab. Maybe include checkpoints for the unresticted version like in spekk's lab. 5. (optional) allow the player to choose to have a buff added to them that turns all other players / mounts into wisps/invisible like is done for the mad king clock tower. Prevents visual obfuscation from people just exploring /practicing the JP and possible trolls with skyscales parked in awkward spots. I think these changes would allow people to far more easily practice them without having to run back from a waypoint every time they fall. It retains their ability to be used in the dailies rotation whilst not removing the need to do the JP entirely and not putting porters out of work which I think is a cool emergent part of the game. It removes the ineffective and annoying zones. It opens up options for being more challenging/ engaging for the people that enjoy them and want more out of them. I understand many people would prefer development time being spent on raids or refreshing dungeons or reimplimenting shelved season 1 living world content but i'll leave those topics for people who have more interest in that. I figure I'll try come at the JPs from the perspective of someone who really enjoys them and as we are a few months out from SAB, there is probably development time being allocated to jumping related stuff soon anyway. If you have other good points to add i'll see if i can edit this post and include them below:

I think the claims about the core mechanics being faulty are coming from a place of lack of practice (barring the high ping glider claims). Core jumping is thankfully all handled client side and is the one thing in this game living in australia doesn't turn into a frustration. It is the one thing I have been able to practice and get good at without hitting an impassable cap as a result of lag. I will admit, jumping in this game can be incredibly precise, but that also allows for a very high skill ceiling as well as a very low floor. Not a single official jumping puzzle or task in this game requires pixel perfection as has been claimed. I know this because there are unofficial jumping activities which do (or something very close to pixel perfection; it's literally called pixel jumping). If you still think Anet is making things too hard, be thankful they don't ask of you to do anything like the jump at 26 seconds here (not even pixel perfect): And especially be thankful they don't require pixel jumping (or wall jump w/e you prefer) like at 28 seconds here: I suggest you give them a few attempts to see the difference between this sort of stuff that a lot of practice enables, and what is actually required from an official jumping puzzle. GW2 is a skill based MMO, you can't just grind to get the best gear and be among the best. Entering a raid in all ascended or legendary, isn't going to guarantee it succeeds, not even close. All other facets of the game seem to be understood to require practice to even attempt and especially to be good at. Same goes for jumping and the various difficulties of jumping puzzle on offer. Consider Not So Secret or Chalice of Tears to be the raid of jumping puzzles, whilst something like Spelunker's Delve is like an open world event. I rarely see complaints for the easier JPs, I suspect because they are super accessible for nearly everyone. The harder ones however attract alot of calls for nerfing or simplifying because suddenly what is mostly considered side content requires practice to be achieveable with any consistancy or ease. It's disheartening because there are those of us who would actually want harder JPs, or better rewards for harder versions or a good performance in a JP time trial. Instead we kinda have to resort to sequence breaking or map breaking to get the challenge. However, I also wouldnt want to force upon people who struggle with this stuff and don't want to or can't get better at it; far harder Jumping content. So, I respectfully ask, please stop requesting it be taken away from those of us who are starved for it. Speedruns in SAB tribulation a few weeks a year is kinda all we have. Last thing I have to say is I used to suck at jumping and would struggle just to make it across the floating stones bridging the canyon thing at Loch Jezt waypoint in Metrica Province. Now, after lots and lots of practice, getting to the goggles at NSS is as easy as walking from A to B in the open world. Some of the speedrun routes for JPs and SAB however; not so much. The skill level exhibited by certain players goes so unbelieveably high, and that's awesome. So honestly, consider practice before claiming the game is broken; at least in this department. I will however concede that the gears at the top of Not So Secret on the way to the goggles are badly placed/ programmed and require one of a number of tricks to be able to do consistently (these should be fixed). I also request the glider be given an option to be toggled off or rebindable to its own key and not tied to the jump key.