Maugetarr.6823
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Posts posted by Maugetarr.6823
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> @MUDse.7623 said:
> > @Maugetarr.6823 said:
> >
> >
> > > @MUDse.7623 said:
> > > > @Maugetarr.6823 said:
> > > > > @MUDse.7623 said:
> > > > > > @Maugetarr.6823 said:
> > > > > > > @MUDse.7623 said:
> > > > > > > > @Maugetarr.6823 said:
> > > > > > > > Based on damage modifiers causing the wide range of damage this can put out, I think the only way they'll be able to nerf it without making it absolutely useless for all non-glass builds is if they give it the 'Mug' treatment; don't allow it to crit, and raise the multiplier so they can raise the minimum damage and cap the maximum at a much lower number.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I'm not advocating for this, but realistically, if they decide to nerf the damage, that's the only viable option I see.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > then i can play deadeye with soldier stats and be pretty much unkillable :D
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Sorta I guess. All the other skills would be useless though. That would be sort of like making a thief using +Power/CritDmg/Vit and +Power/CritDmg/Toughness and relying on Hidden Killer with Backstab for all your damage.
> > > > >
> > > > > my crit damage during the shot is i think 272% so if you increase the base value and make it not crit i would need probably 2DJ + a few auto but that shouldn be that hard if i am so tanky. also can completly drop critical strikes traitline and add acro for more defense or trickery for more iniative.
> > > > >
> > > > > you forget that a lot of the multipliers are not from crit i guess
> > > > > 1x 2.05 x 1.21 x 1.1 x 1.05 = 2,86 times the damge without crit. i did 10k+ non crits with DJ..
> > > >
> > > > I didn't forget, but it still drops it down by a huge amount based on the shot you took. Again, I'm not advocating for it, but that's the only way I could see them reducing the damage because the multiplier isn't excessively high. I don't think it should be changed, but it's going to get complaints until it is.
> > > >
> > > > Running the math from my earlier post where I had your crit damage at 255%
> > > >
> > > > Current:
> > > > 3.38(1.21×1.05×1.1×2.55×1.07×1.1)=14.177
> > > >
> > > > Hypothetical:
> > > > 3.38(1.21×1.05×1.1)=4.72
> > > > 66.7% reduction
> > > >
> > > > So with the removal of crit damage and associated traits they would only have to worry about an a 40% effective increase in the damage (excluding power buffs).
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > in your hypothetical assumption is in that 3.38 already the 105% dmg increse from the skill when shooting at the target ? cause with that 105% increase it is still a 186% increase in damage from base value not just 40%
> >
> > It includes the 105% increase.
> > 1.65×(1+1.05)=3.3825.
> >
> >
>
> but you have to show that with either base or M5 value cause M7 is a traitchoice as well.
I've been basing it on worst case scenario using M7 for most of the calculations. At 5 malice, base damage is 2.8875, so using that, you'd end up at 3.83.
(2.88(1.15×1.05×1.1)=3.825) a 33% increase.
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> @MUDse.7623 said:
> > @Maugetarr.6823 said:
> > > @MUDse.7623 said:
> > > > @Maugetarr.6823 said:
> > > > > @MUDse.7623 said:
> > > > > > @Maugetarr.6823 said:
> > > > > > Based on damage modifiers causing the wide range of damage this can put out, I think the only way they'll be able to nerf it without making it absolutely useless for all non-glass builds is if they give it the 'Mug' treatment; don't allow it to crit, and raise the multiplier so they can raise the minimum damage and cap the maximum at a much lower number.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I'm not advocating for this, but realistically, if they decide to nerf the damage, that's the only viable option I see.
> > > > >
> > > > > then i can play deadeye with soldier stats and be pretty much unkillable :D
> > > >
> > > > Sorta I guess. All the other skills would be useless though. That would be sort of like making a thief using +Power/CritDmg/Vit and +Power/CritDmg/Toughness and relying on Hidden Killer with Backstab for all your damage.
> > >
> > > my crit damage during the shot is i think 272% so if you increase the base value and make it not crit i would need probably 2DJ + a few auto but that shouldn be that hard if i am so tanky. also can completly drop critical strikes traitline and add acro for more defense or trickery for more iniative.
> > >
> > > you forget that a lot of the multipliers are not from crit i guess
> > > 1x 2.05 x 1.21 x 1.1 x 1.05 = 2,86 times the damge without crit. i did 10k+ non crits with DJ..
> >
> > I didn't forget, but it still drops it down by a huge amount based on the shot you took. Again, I'm not advocating for it, but that's the only way I could see them reducing the damage because the multiplier isn't excessively high. I don't think it should be changed, but it's going to get complaints until it is.
> >
> > Running the math from my earlier post where I had your crit damage at 255%
> >
> > Current:
> > 3.38(1.21×1.05×1.1×2.55×1.07×1.1)=14.177
> >
> > Hypothetical:
> > 3.38(1.21×1.05×1.1)=4.72
> > 66.7% reduction
> >
> > So with the removal of crit damage and associated traits they would only have to worry about an a 40% effective increase in the damage (excluding power buffs).
> >
> >
> >
>
> in your hypothetical assumption is in that 3.38 already the 105% dmg increse from the skill when shooting at the target ? cause with that 105% increase it is still a 186% increase in damage from base value not just 40%
It includes the 105% increase.
1.65×(1+1.05)=3.3825.
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> @MUDse.7623 said:
> > @Maugetarr.6823 said:
> > > @MUDse.7623 said:
> > > > @Maugetarr.6823 said:
> > > > Based on damage modifiers causing the wide range of damage this can put out, I think the only way they'll be able to nerf it without making it absolutely useless for all non-glass builds is if they give it the 'Mug' treatment; don't allow it to crit, and raise the multiplier so they can raise the minimum damage and cap the maximum at a much lower number.
> > > >
> > > > I'm not advocating for this, but realistically, if they decide to nerf the damage, that's the only viable option I see.
> > >
> > > then i can play deadeye with soldier stats and be pretty much unkillable :D
> >
> > Sorta I guess. All the other skills would be useless though. That would be sort of like making a thief using +Power/CritDmg/Vit and +Power/CritDmg/Toughness and relying on Hidden Killer with Backstab for all your damage.
>
> my crit damage during the shot is i think 272% so if you increase the base value and make it not crit i would need probably 2DJ + a few auto but that shouldn be that hard if i am so tanky. also can completly drop critical strikes traitline and add acro for more defense or trickery for more iniative.
>
> you forget that a lot of the multipliers are not from crit i guess
> 1x 2.05 x 1.21 x 1.1 x 1.05 = 2,86 times the damge without crit. i did 10k+ non crits with DJ..
I didn't forget, but it still drops it down by a huge amount based on the shot you took. Again, I'm not advocating for it, but that's the only way I could see them reducing the damage because the multiplier isn't excessively high. I don't think it should be changed, but it's going to get complaints until it is.
Running the math from my earlier post where I had your crit damage at 255%
Current:
3.38(1.21×1.05×1.1×2.55×1.07×1.1)=14.177
Hypothetical:
3.38(1.21×1.05×1.1)=4.72
66.7% reduction
So with the removal of crit damage and associated traits they would only have to worry about an a 40% effective increase in the damage (excluding power buffs).
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> @MUDse.7623 said:
> > @Maugetarr.6823 said:
> > Based on damage modifiers causing the wide range of damage this can put out, I think the only way they'll be able to nerf it without making it absolutely useless for all non-glass builds is if they give it the 'Mug' treatment; don't allow it to crit, and raise the multiplier so they can raise the minimum damage and cap the maximum at a much lower number.
> >
> > I'm not advocating for this, but realistically, if they decide to nerf the damage, that's the only viable option I see.
>
> then i can play deadeye with soldier stats and be pretty much unkillable :D
Sorta I guess. All the other skills would be useless though. That would be sort of like making a thief using +Power/CritDmg/Vit and +Power/CritDmg/Toughness and relying on Hidden Killer with Backstab for all your damage.
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Based on damage modifiers causing the wide range of damage this can put out, I think the only way they'll be able to nerf it without making it absolutely useless for all non-glass builds is if they give it the 'Mug' treatment; don't allow it to crit, and raise the multiplier so they can raise the minimum damage and cap the maximum at a much lower number.
I'm not advocating for this, but realistically, if they decide to nerf the damage, that's the only viable option I see.
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Have you tried P/D? I don't think it's exactly optimal, but at least more of the skills focus around condi as opposed to P/P. In PvE your CnDs won't be dodged for the most part as well.
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> @"Hyper Cutter.9376" said:
> > @Maugetarr.6823 said:
> > >Moving forward we'll be aiming changes to bring a bit more parity between the options through the ramp time and using that to emphasize some of the differences. That said, a fundamental issue is that foes whose health pools allow them to survive a significant amount of time (beyond the point of condition stack ramping) are going to favor condition builds unless they specifically have mechanics which deal with conditions.
> >
> > Well if they say they're listening to suggestions about conditions, specifically the ramp:
> >
> > Bleed: Cut damage per tick in half, double the duration
> >
> > Burning: Cut damage in half, double the duration
> >
> > Poison: Cut damage per tick by 33%, extend duration by 50%
> >
> > Torment: Cut damage by 33%, extend duration by 50%
> >
> > Confusion: Cut damage per tick and ability by 33%, extend duration by 50%.
> >
> > Total damage is kept the same per ability
> > Damage×Duration=1
> > 1/2Damage×2/1Duration=1
> > 2/3Damage×3/2Duration=1
> That would also require condition removal and resistance gutted across the board accordingly. Strangely you left that part out.
Sure, that would be fine. Blow your condi removal too early, then get loaded up with them afterwards, you should die. I'm all for more strategic condi bombs and removal.
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> @MUDse.7623 said:
> > @choovanski.5462 said:
> > with damage like this in game I really can't understand why gunflame was nerfed
>
> skill itself and projectile speed was faster, aoe , CC & less warning i guess?
It was also bugged to hit people twice. They probably didn't need to nerf the damage but hitting for 2.75×2 (5.5 total) is a little high. DJ only hits for 2.89 (untraited) , which is just over 2nd tier killshot.
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It's fine in PvE. It's a little harder in PvP, but that's probably a combination of different playstyle and needing some polishing.
Kneeling, is more damage than pistols, standing is less damage than pistols. It could use a little more sustained damage on both fronts, but honestly a lot of that could be fixed with shaving off about 0.1 seconds total from pre/after cast times for auto attacks. For PvP, it could use some help mechanically, but it doesn't really matter in open world PvE.
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If you want to get the drop on them and finish them off quickly, I would recommend crit strikes instead of Deadly Arts. Ferocious Strikes, Practiced Tolerance, and No Quarter are going to boost your front end damage by a substantial amount right off the bat because you'll have 99% crit chance. Executioner will last the last half of the fight versus No Quarter lasting the whole fight. Conversely, Ferocious Strikes will drop off at 50% while exposed weakness will likely last the whole fight. Revealed training will be +200 power at the front end, while assassins fury can be up to +270 with your build from second 6 onwards or you could choose twin fangs for +7% crit damage and it's multiplicative with your crit damage. That leaves Practiced Tolerance instead of mug which would be about 13.6% more crit damage on your build. So overall, I think you could push more front loaded damage with critical strikes.
As others have mentioned, withdraw would probably be better than Hide in Shadows.
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> @MUDse.7623 said:
> î do like the kneeling but i think you should reliably hit your target while kneeling. the problem here is that it is a projectile and not a cast, for projectiles to hit through a crowd of opponents we only got piercing so far.
> the only way i could immagine it would be like: fireing a shot while kneeling fires a piecing bullet, that does not do any damage or condition but when it hits the target you are aming at, it procs a 'cast' that delivers the damage/conditions. this way you would hit your target easier in a crowd of hostile targets, while not taking the option from its mates to help with projectile hate.
I like this idea. I suggested something similar in the malice generation rate thread. It would have made a very unique theme for thief rifle, although mine would have basically ignored projectile hate while allowing personal blocks and similar to still work.
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Maybe it's a difference in price, but doesn't Google run gaming servers out of Oklahoma(among other locations)? Wouldn't that have been a better choice for US coverage?
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> @Oldgrimm.8521 said:
> https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Ferocious_Strikes_(thief)
>
> Can this trait be updated to have increased damage whenever you have fury, since in PvE boss encounters we lose the modifier when a mob/enemy is less than 50% of its HP. This might help our power thieves to be on the spotlight once more in PvE.
I agree that it could use a different trigger condition besides enemy health above 50%, but the trigger using fury would basically make it a different version of No Quarter.
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> @OriOri.8724 said:
> Interesting results. I do think that ultimately it would be healthier for the game to move all damage modifiers that aren't crit damage to be additive, and tweak them all accordingly. But that would require a lot of other things to be balanced at the same time, and we don't get balance patches that big so it'll likely never happen
Yeah. It's pretty hard to balance skills when there's so much variation depending on build, which is why I try to defend some skills so they aren't nerfed to uselessness for the non-optimized player. Glad to have the discussion though to highlight why a skill can be generally balanced but sometimes still hit so hard in certain cases.
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> @OriOri.8724 said:
> > @Maugetarr.6823 said:
> > > @OriOri.8724 said:
> > > > @Maugetarr.6823 said:
> > > > > @OriOri.8724 said:
> > > > > I also don't think a hard damage cap is remotely a good idea. And you don't even have to remove the %dmg modifiers on thief, just adjust some of them. DJ alone can get a potential 21%dmg bonus from 7 malice, on top of 7*15% extra damage from its extra bonus damage from malice, and that's before you account for any other %dmg modifier thief has access to. There's plenty that could be addressed right here honestly. Note that I'm not actually advocating the following change, its just an illustration of how traits like this could be changed without just removing them. Bonus damage from each malice stack could be reduced to 2% instead of 3% per malice, and the built in bonus damage from DJ could be reduced to 10%, or even 7.5% and still be very potent when you have 7 malice stacks. Or, some core thief modifiers could become additive instead of multiplicative. There are ways to address these traits without flat out removing them or making them useless. But as it stands right now, something needs to change. Its not ok for any class to be able to deal enough damage to down a player in 1 hit.
> > > >
> > > > Yeah, but that basically goes back to what I was originally saying, that they'd have to start changing formulas and cores of classes again. With a test server and way more frequent small balance changes I'd have more hope of that working, but changes to lines and skills can throw builds under the bus for months right now.
> > > >
> > > > Edit: If they made all damage modifiers additive, the effective multiplier of DJ (using @"MUDse.7623"'s build) would have been 7.03 (including crit damage being additive) instead of the 14.18 representing a 49.6% drop in damage, which would be a start to all of this. Condi damage would have to come down about the same to keep everything equal to where it is now. The shot that started this thread would have been around 11k assuming everything was the same in their build.
> > >
> > > That would be a huge shot, and for the setup involved I would be ok with that kind of damage coming from it. Still high enough to one shot a full glass cannon build on the low health pool classes, but no one else. I agree that everything else, on all classes, would also have to come down as well though. And sadly I doubt Anet is willing to put in that kind of effort, and I can't justify such a big nerf to thief overall unless other classes will get the same treatment
> >
> > Yeah, that would be a game wide change to damage formulas. If the max direct damage were cut like that, multipliers would probably have to go up 33% across the board as well. Condi damage would probably have to get knocked down by 33% along with it to keep it remotely equal. I'll use qtfy's benchmarks as an example.
> >
> > Condi weaver FGS(overperforming): 38500 -> 25666
> > Condi Berserker(close-ish to 30k stated goal) : 33750-> 22500
> > Power Deadeye: 31100->20700
> >
> > Edit: Blocks, boon duration, heals, and pretty much all defensive abilities would have to be adjusted towards lower uptime to prevent unkillable builds from popping up. This is why I tend to not call for nerfs because of outliers like this hit because the current way damage is dealt makes it almost impossible to balance when skills can jump up to 4 times their intended values. The ramp to conditions is pretty much the only thing I'm in favor of a real change, but not their overall damage.
>
> I don't have time right now to do the math, but what would the damage have been if every damage modifier except for crit damage was additive? This would essentially be all trait and rune/sigil dmg modifiers.
>crit dmg from twin fangs, + 10% crit dmg from ferocious strikes + 20% crit chance from snipers cover + 21% dmg from malice + 105% dmg modifier through malice on DJ +5% damage from sigil +10% scholar.
So currently twin fangs and ferocious strikes are multiplicative to crit damage.
Current:
3.38(1.21×1.05×1.1×2.55×1.07×1.1)=14.177
With TF and FS as is
3.38×(1+.21+.05+.1)(2.55×1.07×1.1)=13.797
2.7% reduction
With TS and FS changed to be additive
3.38×(1+.21+.05+.1)(2.55+.07+.1)=12.503
11.9% reduction
In my correction to mudse, I made a mistake because it was thinking I was an additional 1.55 over base damage, but that neglected the base damage, so this is how I should have written it out first to double check my work
3.38(base hit)+3.38(1.55+.21+.1+.07+.1)->
3.38(1+1.55+.21+.1+.07+.1)=10.241
27.8% reduction
The incorrect way I typed it in for those interested:
3.38×(1.55+.21+.1+.07+.1)=7.030
50.4% reduction
(learn from my mistake, write out your stuff before typing it in)
Going back to the DPS numbers, that would put power Deadeye back at 22750 and would probably still require condi to come down by 25% or so.
Weaver:28875
Condi berserker:25314
Power Deadeye:22750
That's much easier for them to implement now actually as coefficients don't need to be brought up. Sorry for the mistake.
Edit: Ideally (imo), optimized power builds could come up to about the 25k mark (~9% more damage after this change) and they would try really hard to keep DoTs just under 30k, so for long fights condi would be about 20% more effective (assuming they increase the ramp time too).
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> @"Strider Pj.2193" said:
> > @Maugetarr.6823 said:
> > > @OriOri.8724 said:
> > > > @Maugetarr.6823 said:
> > > > > @OriOri.8724 said:
> > > > > I also don't think a hard damage cap is remotely a good idea. And you don't even have to remove the %dmg modifiers on thief, just adjust some of them. DJ alone can get a potential 21%dmg bonus from 7 malice, on top of 7*15% extra damage from its extra bonus damage from malice, and that's before you account for any other %dmg modifier thief has access to. There's plenty that could be addressed right here honestly. Note that I'm not actually advocating the following change, its just an illustration of how traits like this could be changed without just removing them. Bonus damage from each malice stack could be reduced to 2% instead of 3% per malice, and the built in bonus damage from DJ could be reduced to 10%, or even 7.5% and still be very potent when you have 7 malice stacks. Or, some core thief modifiers could become additive instead of multiplicative. There are ways to address these traits without flat out removing them or making them useless. But as it stands right now, something needs to change. Its not ok for any class to be able to deal enough damage to down a player in 1 hit.
> > > >
> > > > Yeah, but that basically goes back to what I was originally saying, that they'd have to start changing formulas and cores of classes again. With a test server and way more frequent small balance changes I'd have more hope of that working, but changes to lines and skills can throw builds under the bus for months right now.
> > > >
> > > > Edit: If they made all damage modifiers additive, the effective multiplier of DJ (using @"MUDse.7623"'s build) would have been 7.03 (including crit damage being additive) instead of the 14.18 representing a 49.6% drop in damage, which would be a start to all of this. Condi damage would have to come down about the same to keep everything equal to where it is now. The shot that started this thread would have been around 11k assuming everything was the same in their build.
> > >
> > > That would be a huge shot, and for the setup involved I would be ok with that kind of damage coming from it. Still high enough to one shot a full glass cannon build on the low health pool classes, but no one else. I agree that everything else, on all classes, would also have to come down as well though. And sadly I doubt Anet is willing to put in that kind of effort, and I can't justify such a big nerf to thief overall unless other classes will get the same treatment
> >
> > Yeah, that would be a game wide change to damage formulas. If the max direct damage were cut like that, multipliers would probably have to go up 33% across the board as well. Condi damage would probably have to get knocked down by 33% along with it to keep it remotely equal. I'll use qtfy's benchmarks as an example.
> >
> > Condi weaver FGS(overperforming): 38500 -> 25666
> > Condi Berserker(close-ish to 30k stated goal) : 33750-> 22500
> > Power Deadeye: 31100->20700
>
> Now.., if they would split those damage modifiers from PvE, we would be in decent shape. Unfortunately, this would cause a mutiny in PvE land. Raiders couldn't adjust.
I am not a programmer and don't know the specifics of their game engine, so I don't know if they'd be able to split the damage formulas per game mode. They might be able to, or they might be able to change the the formulas gamewide and adjust coefficients for Power in PvE upward by a larger value and bring the number of stacks down for condi in PvP.
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> @OriOri.8724 said:
> > @Maugetarr.6823 said:
> > > @OriOri.8724 said:
> > > I also don't think a hard damage cap is remotely a good idea. And you don't even have to remove the %dmg modifiers on thief, just adjust some of them. DJ alone can get a potential 21%dmg bonus from 7 malice, on top of 7*15% extra damage from its extra bonus damage from malice, and that's before you account for any other %dmg modifier thief has access to. There's plenty that could be addressed right here honestly. Note that I'm not actually advocating the following change, its just an illustration of how traits like this could be changed without just removing them. Bonus damage from each malice stack could be reduced to 2% instead of 3% per malice, and the built in bonus damage from DJ could be reduced to 10%, or even 7.5% and still be very potent when you have 7 malice stacks. Or, some core thief modifiers could become additive instead of multiplicative. There are ways to address these traits without flat out removing them or making them useless. But as it stands right now, something needs to change. Its not ok for any class to be able to deal enough damage to down a player in 1 hit.
> >
> > Yeah, but that basically goes back to what I was originally saying, that they'd have to start changing formulas and cores of classes again. With a test server and way more frequent small balance changes I'd have more hope of that working, but changes to lines and skills can throw builds under the bus for months right now.
> >
> > Edit: If they made all damage modifiers additive, the effective multiplier of DJ (using @"MUDse.7623"'s build) would have been 7.03 (including crit damage being additive) instead of the 14.18 representing a 49.6% drop in damage, which would be a start to all of this. Condi damage would have to come down about the same to keep everything equal to where it is now. The shot that started this thread would have been around 11k assuming everything was the same in their build.
>
> That would be a huge shot, and for the setup involved I would be ok with that kind of damage coming from it. Still high enough to one shot a full glass cannon build on the low health pool classes, but no one else. I agree that everything else, on all classes, would also have to come down as well though. And sadly I doubt Anet is willing to put in that kind of effort, and I can't justify such a big nerf to thief overall unless other classes will get the same treatment
Yeah, that would be a game wide change to damage formulas. If the max direct damage were cut like that, multipliers would probably have to go up 33% across the board as well. Condi damage would probably have to get knocked down by 33% along with it to keep it remotely equal. I'll use qtfy's benchmarks as an example.
Condi weaver FGS(overperforming): 38500 -> 25666
Condi Berserker(close-ish to 30k stated goal) : 33750-> 22500
Power Deadeye: 31100->20700
Edit: Blocks, boon duration, heals, and pretty much all defensive abilities would have to be adjusted towards lower uptime to prevent unkillable builds from popping up. This is why I tend to not call for nerfs because of outliers like this hit because the current way damage is dealt makes it almost impossible to balance when skills can jump up to 4 times their intended values. The ramp to conditions is pretty much the only thing I'm in favor of a real change, but not their overall damage.
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> @babazhook.6805 said:
> > @Maugetarr.6823 said:
> > > And to whoever mentioned gunflame. Again, read through my posts in this thread. I am not ok with ANY skill that is able to pull this off. This is not a thief hate post by me, its me hating on stupid kitten mechanics that allow people to one shot kill people in a single hit due to busted powercreep. Making a single mistake should never, ever result in you going from 100% to downed from a single hit. Never. That is not, and never will be, balanced in any way.
> >
> > I mentioned kill shot, so I think this is aimed at me.
> >
> > First of all, if kill shot has had the same damage since the game's release, it's not really power creep. Fully charged, it has a coefficient of 3.25, and effectively 3.48 when burst mastery is traited. I mentioned it because it's very similar to DJ in terms of coefficient, cast time, range, and build up mechanics. DJ, fully charged, has a coefficient of 2.89 untraited, and 3.38 traited. So as you can see, the numbers are in line with skills introduced with the release of the game.
> >
> > On to the second part of the point I was trying to make. These skills are numerically close to each other, but you end up seeing higher numbers (more often at least) with thief because of the class designs and multipliers available to thief. Since +% damage modifiers are multiplicative in this game, damage values can snowball quickly. Let's look at the traits @"MUDse.7623" pointed out. With all of those modifiers, we go from 3.38 to an effective 5.56, roughly a 64% increase in damage from the ability. On top of that, it crit, so that increase is compounded by his 255% crit damage. This boosts it up to an effective 14.18 multiplier, or almost 4.2 times the original value of the skill. On top of that, he had 4k power at the time, tilting it even further. Now, let's imagine that the devs reduced DJ by 75% so he could only achieve a 10k hit so it couldn't kill anyone flat out, even the lowest health pools. It would have a multiplier of 0.85, which is in auto attack range for a lot of classes on a lot of weapons. I want to emphasize that it would have still been a 10k hit with these bonuses. So the thing is, and the point I'm trying to drive home with all of this, is that to make sure the skill wasn't a 1hko, you'd have to nerf this skill into auto attack territory because of how damage is multiplied in this game, or have to adjust damage formulas and probably all of the skill coefficients in the game as well to compensate.
> >
> > And one last thing, this isn't powercreep on modifiers either, as crit damage used to be able to go much higher before the ferocity change.
> >
> >
>
> I suspect that with a few of the new skills and trait changes for warrior, Gunflame damage can be very significant. I have not tried it norr would I suggest it viable without testing but I can imagine strength/arms/berserker with rifle. Take KICK as a utility. Take signet mastery to build uber high ferocity. Build up ferocity via signet use prior to the shot ,kick at the air (33 percent boost) and take the shot.
>
> For WvW
>
> Out of STR a potential of 33% (Peak performance) 10 percent (stick and move) 21 percent Bersekers power
> Out of Arms Signet mastery for ferocity stacking (Pushing it close to 300 percent all sources) using Burst precision for a guaranteed crit.
>
> Then The Berserker line to get that Gunflame. Always angry 7 percent , blood reaction more ferocity and bloody roar for 10 percent boost in berserk mode.
>
> Then of course the Sigil/food/runes boosts. With Signet of might traited you can even make sure that shot can not be blocked. I might well fool around with such a build in the near future.
Could be fun. Keep in mind gunflame is a 2.2 multiplier. I think it was a 2.75 when it first dropped and it was bugged to hit people twice, effectively making it a 5.5 base. They fixed the bug and simultaneously nerfed the damage, so you might not be able to get it as high as you want, or close to kill shot.
Edit: Ran some quick numbers. Could be a fun suicide build, but you'd have no survivability.
Strength/Discipline/Berserker
Gear:All zerk + scholar runes + Butternut squash soup + superior sharpening stone + Sigil of force
Burst setup 1: Rifle auto attack ->To the Limit/signet of fury->Bull's Charge->(Dodge roll into target)-> Kill Shot
3.25×1.1×1.1×1.3×1.07×1.05×2.34=13.44 effective multiplier
Burst setup 2: Bulls Charge->To the Limit/SoF->Arcing Slice->weapon swap -> Dodge into target->Headbutt->stunbreak->killshot
3.25×1.1×1.1×1.21×1.3×1.07×1.05×2.34=16.26 effective multiplier (for just kill shot)
Burst setup 3: Bulls Charge->To the Limit/SoF->Arcing Slice->weapon swap -> Dodge into target->Headbutt->rampage->gunflame
2.2×1.1×1.1×1.21×1.3×1.07×1.07×1.1×1.05×2.43= 13.45
Strength/Arms/Discipline
Burst 1: signet of rage->signet of might->bolas->signet of fury->random dodge->kill shot
3.25×1.1×1.3×1.07×1.1×1.05×2.45=14.07
Burst 2: Signet of rage->signet of might->Bulls Charge->SoF->Arcing Slice->weapon swap -> Dodge into target->To the limit->killshot
3.25×1.1×1.3×1.21×1.07×1.1×1.05×2.45=17.02
Theoretical shots vs 2300 armor @3059 power:
22612
27356
22628
23672
28635
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> @MUDse.7623 said:
> > @Maugetarr.6823 said:
> > > @OriOri.8724 said:
> > > I also don't think a hard damage cap is remotely a good idea. And you don't even have to remove the %dmg modifiers on thief, just adjust some of them. DJ alone can get a potential 21%dmg bonus from 7 malice, on top of 7*15% extra damage from its extra bonus damage from malice, and that's before you account for any other %dmg modifier thief has access to. There's plenty that could be addressed right here honestly. Note that I'm not actually advocating the following change, its just an illustration of how traits like this could be changed without just removing them. Bonus damage from each malice stack could be reduced to 2% instead of 3% per malice, and the built in bonus damage from DJ could be reduced to 10%, or even 7.5% and still be very potent when you have 7 malice stacks. Or, some core thief modifiers could become additive instead of multiplicative. There are ways to address these traits without flat out removing them or making them useless. But as it stands right now, something needs to change. Its not ok for any class to be able to deal enough damage to down a player in 1 hit.
> >
> > Yeah, but that basically goes back to what I was originally saying, that they'd have to start changing formulas and cores of classes again. With a test server and way more frequent small balance changes I'd have more hope of that working, but changes to lines and skills can throw builds under the bus for months right now.
> >
> > Edit: If they made all damage modifiers additive, the effective multiplier of DJ would have been 10.41 instead of the 14.18 representing a 25% drop in damage, which would be a start to all of this. Condi damage would have to come down about the same to keep everything equal to where it is now.
>
> additive multipliers will make the thieves DPS in PvE drop by a lot more than other classes i think. so they will increase the numbers. that i onehit alot of people with DJ is one thing but most 0 thoughness people i can hit like 20-25k backstab and that is alot harder to avoid, if they make multipliers additive but increase thieves base damage numbers to get their DPS up again, backstab will probably get closer to DJ - not sure if thats a great idea.
I fixed the numbers from the quote because I messed something up, but yeah, I understand the reluctance to this too. The idea behind this one is that the max and min values would be much closer together if the damage were additive, so some multipliers might have to go up, but they'd only have to deal with damage being about twice the original value instead of over 4 times the original value, making it easier to balance (hopefully). A skill hitting between 10k and 20k is a lot easier to balance than 10k and 40k I would think.
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> @OriOri.8724 said:
> I also don't think a hard damage cap is remotely a good idea. And you don't even have to remove the %dmg modifiers on thief, just adjust some of them. DJ alone can get a potential 21%dmg bonus from 7 malice, on top of 7*15% extra damage from its extra bonus damage from malice, and that's before you account for any other %dmg modifier thief has access to. There's plenty that could be addressed right here honestly. Note that I'm not actually advocating the following change, its just an illustration of how traits like this could be changed without just removing them. Bonus damage from each malice stack could be reduced to 2% instead of 3% per malice, and the built in bonus damage from DJ could be reduced to 10%, or even 7.5% and still be very potent when you have 7 malice stacks. Or, some core thief modifiers could become additive instead of multiplicative. There are ways to address these traits without flat out removing them or making them useless. But as it stands right now, something needs to change. Its not ok for any class to be able to deal enough damage to down a player in 1 hit.
Yeah, but that basically goes back to what I was originally saying, that they'd have to start changing formulas and cores of classes again. With a test server and way more frequent small balance changes I'd have more hope of that working, but changes to lines and skills can throw builds under the bus for months right now.
Edit: If they made all damage modifiers additive, the effective multiplier of DJ (using @"MUDse.7623"'s build) would have been 7.03 (including crit damage being additive) instead of the 14.18 representing a 49.6% drop in damage, which would be a start to all of this. Condi damage would have to come down about the same to keep everything equal to where it is now. The shot that started this thread would have been around 11k assuming everything was the same in their build.
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> @MUDse.7623 said:
> > @Maugetarr.6823 said:
> > A faster way to prevent instant kills between players in Pvp and WvW would be to do something like a scaling cap on the damage from any one ability, or maybe the damage 1 player can do to another player in 1 second. Say, at base power, the most damage 1 player can do to another player is 50% of their health. For every 100 power you can do 2.5% more damage maximum in terms of that player's health. So at 3000 power, you could one-shot a player with no additional toughness. Conversely, toughness could scale at -1.5% for every 100 toughness. So at 3000 armor, a player with only 1000 power could only hit you for 20% of your maximum health, a player with 3000 power could hit you for 70% of your health, and at 4000, they'd hit you for 95%. Condis could have a maximum amount the same way with vitality being the negative slope. That way they could control the ramp more closely between players. Basically it would chop off the ends of the bell curve of damage.
>
> the problem is we get more and more option for extremes in both directions offensive and defensive. just think of the amount of boons, boonhate, heals, cc, special effects(i.e. rev dwarf elite) that you can apply now to like 3 years ago. the people that suffer from this changes are the ones that dont play these extremes cause they might get instant killed AND they might encouter opponents they cant kill cause too defensive.
> damage caps will just shift the balance of the extremes towards defense and we will get some kind of bunker meta - yey!
Well, it would really just affect the extremes, but yeah, it could lead to a meta of extremes. I was thinking that for an average power and armor nothing would change, but it could push people into maxing power or toughness. The suggestion came from basically thinking that it would be too difficult for them to go through every skill simultaneously to bring them back in line with so few balance patches per year. If there were small adjustments every couple of weeks with mechanics changes every 3 months, I'd have more confidence in it.
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> @OriOri.8724 said:
> > @Maugetarr.6823 said:
> > > And to whoever mentioned gunflame. Again, read through my posts in this thread. I am not ok with ANY skill that is able to pull this off. This is not a thief hate post by me, its me hating on stupid kitten mechanics that allow people to one shot kill people in a single hit due to busted powercreep. Making a single mistake should never, ever result in you going from 100% to downed from a single hit. Never. That is not, and never will be, balanced in any way.
> >
> > I mentioned kill shot, so I think this is aimed at me.
> >
> > First of all, if kill shot has had the same damage since the game's release, it's not really power creep. Fully charged, it has a coefficient of 3.25, and effectively 3.48 when burst mastery is traited. I mentioned it because it's very similar to DJ in terms of coefficient, cast time, range, and build up mechanics. DJ, fully charged, has a coefficient of 2.89 untraited, and 3.38 traited. So as you can see, the numbers are in line with skills introduced with the release of the game.
> >
> > On to the second part of the point I was trying to make. These skills are numerically close to each other, but you end up seeing higher numbers (more often at least) with thief because of the class designs and multipliers available to thief. Since +% damage modifiers are multiplicative in this game, damage values can snowball quickly. Let's look at the traits @"MUDse.7623" pointed out. With all of those modifiers, we go from 3.38 to an effective 5.56, roughly a 64% increase in damage from the ability. On top of that, it crit, so that increase is compounded by his 255% crit damage. This boosts it up to an effective 14.18 multiplier, or almost 4.2 times the original value of the skill. On top of that, he had 4k power at the time, tilting it even further. Now, let's imagine that the devs reduced DJ by 75% so he could only achieve a 10k hit so it couldn't kill anyone flat out, even the lowest health pools. It would have a multiplier of 0.85, which is in auto attack range for a lot of classes on a lot of weapons. I want to emphasize that it would have still been a 10k hit with these bonuses. So the thing is, and the point I'm trying to drive home with all of this, is that to make sure the skill wasn't a 1hko, you'd have to nerf this skill into auto attack territory because of how damage is multiplied in this game, or have to adjust damage formulas and probably all of the skill coefficients in the game as well to compensate.
> >
> > And one last thing, this isn't powercreep on modifiers either, as crit damage used to be able to go much higher before the ferocity change.
> >
> >
>
> I get where you are coming from, and why you are so adamant that the skill is fine, but its still bad design for it to be able to hit so hard in a single hit. The skill itself doesn't have to be nerfed that hard, if at all. Like you said yourself, thief has access to a lot of %dmg modifiers, and this is why this problem exists with DJ in the first place. There are a variety of places that the devs could address this without just nerfing the power scaling on DJ into the ground.
Maybe, they could remove +%'s, but they'd have to do it across the board for all classes, and then probably adjust coefficients across all the skills on all classes to compensate for PvE. I'm only making the following suggestion because I think it would be too big of a change to comb through all the professions and weapons and Reba Lance everything.
A faster way to prevent instant kills between players in Pvp and WvW would be to do something like a scaling cap on the damage from any one ability, or maybe the damage 1 player can do to another player in 1 second. Say, at base power, the most damage 1 player can do to another player is 50% of their health. For every 100 power you can do 2.5% more damage maximum in terms of that player's health. So at 3000 power, you could one-shot a player with no additional toughness. Conversely, toughness could scale at -1.5% for every 100 toughness. So at 3000 armor, a player with only 1000 power could only hit you for 20% of your maximum health, a player with 3000 power could hit you for 70% of your health, and at 4000, they'd hit you for 95%. Condis could have a maximum amount the same way with vitality being the negative slope. That way they could control the ramp more closely between players. Basically it would chop off the ends of the bell curve of damage.
Anyway, I'm against a straight damage cap because it punishes people for going glass cannon and if they hit someone who has invested nothing into toughness, they should be rewarded for it. I'm generally against nerfing skills straight up because players with balanced builds will be punished as their damage suffers because of a smallish portion of the player base min/maxing. However, I can see the frustration with people being one shot.
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> And to whoever mentioned gunflame. Again, read through my posts in this thread. I am not ok with ANY skill that is able to pull this off. This is not a thief hate post by me, its me hating on stupid kitten mechanics that allow people to one shot kill people in a single hit due to busted powercreep. Making a single mistake should never, ever result in you going from 100% to downed from a single hit. Never. That is not, and never will be, balanced in any way.
I mentioned kill shot, so I think this is aimed at me.
First of all, if kill shot has had the same damage since the game's release, it's not really power creep. Fully charged, it has a coefficient of 3.25, and effectively 3.48 when burst mastery is traited. I mentioned it because it's very similar to DJ in terms of coefficient, cast time, range, and build up mechanics. DJ, fully charged, has a coefficient of 2.89 untraited, and 3.38 traited. So as you can see, the numbers are in line with skills introduced with the release of the game.
On to the second part of the point I was trying to make. These skills are numerically close to each other, but you end up seeing higher numbers (more often at least) with thief because of the class designs and multipliers available to thief. Since +% damage modifiers are multiplicative in this game, damage values can snowball quickly. Let's look at the traits @"MUDse.7623" pointed out. With all of those modifiers, we go from 3.38 to an effective 5.56, roughly a 64% increase in damage from the ability. On top of that, it crit, so that increase is compounded by his 255% crit damage. This boosts it up to an effective 14.18 multiplier, or almost 4.2 times the original value of the skill. On top of that, he had 4k power at the time, tilting it even further. Now, let's imagine that the devs reduced DJ by 75% so he could only achieve a 10k hit so it couldn't kill anyone flat out, even the lowest health pools. It would have a multiplier of 0.85, which is in auto attack range for a lot of classes on a lot of weapons. I want to emphasize that it would have still been a 10k hit with these bonuses. So the thing is, and the point I'm trying to drive home with all of this, is that to make sure the skill wasn't a 1hko, you'd have to nerf this skill into auto attack territory because of how damage is multiplied in this game, or have to adjust damage formulas and probably all of the skill coefficients in the game as well to compensate.
And one last thing, this isn't powercreep on modifiers either, as crit damage used to be able to go much higher before the ferocity change.
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> @OriOri.8724 said:
> > @Chaba.5410 said:
> > > @OriOri.8724 said:
> > > > @Chaba.5410 said:
> > > > > @OriOri.8724 said:
> > > > > > @Chaba.5410 said:
> > > > > > > @OriOri.8724 said:
> > > > > > > All of that damage, all 22k of it, came from a single hit from death's judgement.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > No it didn't. It came from bonuses applied by stealth traits and Deadeye's Mark malice stacks which take over 12 seconds to accumulate to high enough stacks to provide one-shot capability. Player had more than enough time and warning to do something effective against the shot including kiting away.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > LOL you can't even deny that the damage all came from a single hit. Go on, show me how that damage comes from multiple hits. Do it. I'm waiting.
> > > >
> > > > Use the damage formula published on the wiki without including the bonus damage from Deadeye's Mark to explain how Death's Judgement can one-shot someone. I'm waiting.
> > >
> > > You have kitten screenshots of a single hit from deaths judgement doing that much damage. You guys are in some extreme denial in this thread.
> >
> > Of which no one else but you is ignoring the other skills/traits which required waiting at least 12 long seconds to produce that high number. No one can get that high of a number from Death's Judgement without the bonus damage from Deadeye's Mark. Only you are trying to compare waiting 12 seconds of a highly telegraphed mark to a quick multi-hit combo burst of mesmer skills where opponents aren't given anywhere near the same amount of time to react.
>
> Its pointless arguing with some of you thiefs honestly. All of that damage is coming in a single hit. You can't deny that, yet somehow you keep on trying. Its honestly quite funny watching you guys try to reason your way out of this one. All of that damage comes in 1 hit. All of it. Enough to down any player. In 1 hit. That's not good game design, and never will be.
Well it's only a 3.38 multiplier at 7 malice stacks, which is about 4% more damage than full adrenaline kill shot (3.25). It's not really the shot itself but how damage modifiers operate in this game.
50k hit... sad
in Thief
Posted
Well, I don't wanna go through all the math again, but DJ is a 3.38 multiplier with M7 traited at full malice stacks. That's slightly less than killshot traited with burst mastery. The numbers get so high because of the damage multipliers, not the shot itself.