Israel.7056

> @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:

> Don’t think the issue in this thread is about aoe’s damage in an individual bases but due to design or mechanics whether it’s exploitation or not groups of scourges stacking their ranged aoe’s everywhere in and around a good chunk of area around their team by mindlessly spamming has far to great of a presence within every Zerg battle and should be toned down not gutted. Scourges should be impactful in a team setting as that seems to be a designed strength it has just been tuned a bit too far.

A group that "mindlessly spams" their scourge hit will lose every time to a group that patiently times and coordinates their scourge hit properly. Spamming random shade skills off CD does absolutely nothing against an even semi organized group and wasting wells is even worse as they have relatively longer cds.

The scourge hit itself is usually very easy to avoid, you can literally walk out of it in most cases and it's very well telegraphed because the shade circles are a range indicator that show you about where the wells are going to be going down. Remember that almost all their hard hitting stuff is 900 range or less. Most of the time avoiding a necro hit amounts to dodging once to the left or the right. That's really all it usually takes. The fact that so many people fail at something that simple is mind boggling to me.

As a side note one thing I tend to notice is how many people do not appear to have strafe keys bound as they seemingly only move forwards or backwards which means they're going to have trouble avoiding a scourge hit because they can't quickly dodge left or right.

> @"Sylosi.6503" said:

> You don't understand the game if you think it is anything but rookie mode.

And yet these guys think there's too much damage in the game.

> @"Acyk.9671" said:

> Remember that he is in a guild that likes to kills zergs, higher aoe cap means number factor drops significantly

It's true the aoe cap is a huge crutch and it has made it fairly easy for larger groups to just w key over people they outnumber in relative safety for as long as I can remember.

> @"Swagger.1459" said:

> Maybe players are on to something, and worth a shot to address stuff like damage creep by increasing damage? Too many condis and cc? No worries, just double the effect and durations... Steath? Everyone gets a free perma stealth button and we remove all sources of reveal.

>

> What could possibly go wrong?

The problem is very low skill mostly non social players (only pug never play in a guild) complaining about stuff they only have a surface level understanding of because they never get good enough to see the game in a more advanced way. There isn't too much damage, the amount of damage is absolutely fine, very easy to deal with in most cases, most people are just abysmal at using dodges appropriately, movement and positioning in general and using TEAMWORK to mitigate a bomb. There isn't too much CC most people we fight are just really really bad at managing stab and avoiding easily avoidable CCs. Half of the guild groups we fight are legit run by skill clickers who can't even get one stab rotation right let alone two. Stealth is absolutely fine in team play, there's very easy reliable counterplay to it. If you're getting 100-0 by a thief out of stealth your supports are terrible for not ressing you instantly and you were way out of position to get jumped in the middle of nowhere like that. The SECOND someone stealths you should be calling that out to your guards and your engis to let them know you're in trouble. If someone gets a good stealth ambush on you then that's fair play, that's what stealth is for learn map awareness get better at the game.

> @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:

> No because fb/scourge are still carrying the battle far more than any two should be

Alright so bring your fb/scourge/rev only map queue pug blob and we will rick roll you with probably half as many guards and necros as you and we will see what carries and what doesn't.

> @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:

> The problem is when a game is designed around 9 classes with three specs each and due to class mechanics/skills of a few specs big blob/zergs that are in ur words organized and skilled(what a joke) consist of a few fb and bunch of scourges walking in the direction they want to go in mindlessly spaming and stacking long ranged aoe’s while a few revs etc sit on the side hammering people that cant dodge lol every Zerg fights the same,is it the most effective yes for sure but doesn’t take much organization nor skill to do so lol and every Zerg battle goes like that,pirate ship push/pull boring no skill bs.

What if I told you the guild meta was 7/9? Would that blow your mind?

Necros do not need more mobility they need to learn to make friends with people who play support. This is a team based game mode not a solo farming game like bdo.

I think if anything the target cap should be increased to 10 on more skills.

All these people complaining about damage are playing the game from an extremely disorganized perspective which is to say they're not in a guild. I play with an organized guild I can tell you there's no problem with damage or build diversity for that matter.

Bring whatever 3/9 basic bitch pug blob you want we will run you over with a 30 man 7/9 comp any day of the week. You don't understand this game when you play it on rookie mode.

I think at the very least they should remove rally. Then we can go from there.

OP, If you're deadset on playing deadeye you're going to have a tough time finding a squad that will let you in.

> @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:

> Yes hense why zergs mostly look for the fb/scourges because their toolkit’s/design allow them to be the MOST effective specs in Zerg battles which leads to all zergs mostly consisting of the same specific specs, there’s a reason for it. That is boring for most people from what I’ve read in multiple post and not a healthy design. I’m not saying fb/scourges shouldn’t be effective in a group, ofcourse they should be given the idea of the specs. Just think that if scourges and fb were toned down a bit and some classes viability were brought up a bit than there would more diverse groups. Same goes for roaming/small group fights tho that’s another thing itself

So what class is supposed to be competing with guard for main stab?

> @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:

> U guys should jump into the thread below this one where a player is complaining about constant squad kick due to him being DE. U can explain to him that it’s unfortunate that he’s being kicked by zergs looking for fb/scourges etc and that the Zerg commander clearly doesn’t understand that the DE can contribute just as much since it’s designed to mindlessly skill spam and if does so will have the same effectiveness as a scourge lol

The scourge toolkit is just better than the deadeyes for what medium to large scale fights require not more spammy. Deadeye skills are too easy to counter and deadeyes have no melee stopping power whatsoever.

> @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:

> All classes are built around spamming skills? Really?

Yes. This entire game is spammy.

It doesn't really make sense to complain about "spam" when the general design of every class is to have relatively low cds on weapon sets and utilities at least compared to other mmos I've played. In aion, for example, many major cds were on 5 minute or 10 minute cooldowns which meant you got to use them once or twice in a fight. There are only a few skills like that in gw2.

There is almost no amount of numerical nerfing to scourge that could happen that would make an engi or ranger or thief a suitable substitute. This is not a numbers issue its a design issue. The necro is THE anti melee dps everything about it is designed to keep melee off them without moving very much. No other class is designed this way.

> @"Swagger.1459" said:

> Meanwhile...

>

> My cute lil necro...

> - 1735T/2702A

> - 23,012 health

>

> Incoming attack (from stealth)…

> - 13,395

> - 1,298

> - 6,809

> - absorbed

> - 5,119

> - 1,303

> - 1,303

>

> Total damage in a couple seconds...

> - 29,227

>

> Any wonder why I would create a suggestion thread such as this? How reasonable, and fair, is it for players to deal with these types of damage outputs when 1 opener can consume almost 30k health?

What was your guardian doing?

> @"DonkeyHaxor.4052" said:

> > @"Israel.7056" said:

> > All they have to do is give other supports more access to stab if they want them to be more competitive with fb. It's really that simple.

>

> No, it really isn't. That is going to create a meta where its infinite stability and we have the same problem we have now except its a boon ball. The solution is to NERF the amount of things firebrand can do.

If they can't give stab they can't be subbed for firebrand. If nothing gives reliable stab no one can push it's as simple as that.

Firebrand would get zero play if it didn't have as much stab as it does. Healing doesn't matter if you don't have stab.

This game is really not that complex.

All they have to do is give other supports more access to stab if they want them to be more competitive with fb. It's really that simple.

> @"Caysadia.7405" said:

> > @"Israel.7056" said:

> > > @"Caysadia.7405" said:

> > > > @"Israel.7056" said:

> > > > Before we can talk about what's wrong with balance we have to talk about what we think balance ought to be. In the absence of some teleological point of reference the whole balance debate is meaningless imo.

> > >

> > > A good point of balance would perhaps be one where most or every class has SOME sort of role that they bring to the table that nothing else really can in a useful capacity. A good example of this was engineer pre patch where it may have been a worse support than firebrand, but it brought superspeed to the table and therefore many guilds ran a scrapper mostly for the superspeed. You're obviously going to have classes that are the best at dealing damage or doing support, its the nature of the game, but a class shouldn't shut out all other options. We went from Guardian Warrior Elementalist Necro to Guardian Revenant Necro in the span of two expansions, who knows maybe soon zergs will just be guardians and necros. You'll never have every class being required 100% for a group, but having 4/9 or even 5/9 be good and viable in large scale combat would be nice.

> >

> > What guild do you play with?

>

> im all over the place brother

EU player, mostly pugging? I had a similar conversation with an EU player a week ago give or take. He was saying the meta was 3/9 there as well.

> @"Caysadia.7405" said:

> > @"Israel.7056" said:

> > Before we can talk about what's wrong with balance we have to talk about what we think balance ought to be. In the absence of some teleological point of reference the whole balance debate is meaningless imo.

>

> A good point of balance would perhaps be one where most or every class has SOME sort of role that they bring to the table that nothing else really can in a useful capacity. A good example of this was engineer pre patch where it may have been a worse support than firebrand, but it brought superspeed to the table and therefore many guilds ran a scrapper mostly for the superspeed. You're obviously going to have classes that are the best at dealing damage or doing support, its the nature of the game, but a class shouldn't shut out all other options. We went from Guardian Warrior Elementalist Necro to Guardian Revenant Necro in the span of two expansions, who knows maybe soon zergs will just be guardians and necros. You'll never have every class being required 100% for a group, but having 4/9 or even 5/9 be good and viable in large scale combat would be nice.

What guild do you play with?

Before we can talk about what's wrong with balance we have to talk about what we think balance ought to be. In the absence of some teleological point of reference the whole balance debate is meaningless imo.

I don't think anet is going to put too much effort into policing this sort of thing. Setting them to private is your best option if it means that much to you.

Just being able to eliminate entire stat sets from play would be worth the swap.

Everything else would be icing on the cake.

Lol omg the irony of this post gbless dude.

They should make siege refresh cost supply so it would slowly drain an objective to just have tons of siege sitting in there. Also siege should have an ammo system so you couldn't just fire stuff endlessly without reloading it. For the realism.

> @"Chorazin.4107" said:

> > @"Israel.7056" said:

>

> > I guess it depends on playstyle but I think chrono and engi are mandatory and I like weavers for the damage although it's a high risk class to play for sure.

> >

> > In my view we are at least at 5/9 mandatory with weavers and spellbreakers as strong supplemental choices depending on how you want to play. Yeah you could run just guard necro and rev but youd lose so much utility and sustain dropping chrono and engi i dont think it would be worth it.

> >

> > The pacing of the fights is also excellent imo a lot of fights are over in seconds, one mistake can get you wiped fairly easily. I've always thought the sustain train stuff was pretty boring I like the rhythm of the game more now.

> >

> > Ez stab was a crutch for a lot of guilds for a long time I think that's a big reason why some people miss the old days so much.

>

> What does the Engi and Chrono do?

>

> You want stealth in a 15man GvG you blast a smoke field, this and vault dmg is the DD's role, you generally are not using a Chrono just to give you a veil. The CC is debatable given how much stab a 15 man with 6FB's has, add another Scourge to strip boons and apply dmg is a better option. I admit Chrono used to be wanted for the boon spam, but Anet nuked that from orbit, now it's pretty much drop the Chrono replace with FB no.2. You want superspeed, that is provided usually on a push via Heralds Chaotic Release. Scrapper has some use abusing the rune of altruism bug with mortar kit and traited purity of purpose. Healing kit, Bypass Coating, Defense Field, e.gun all useful but more useful than FB no. two? Or adding another Scourge? I do not see it as an absolute necessity, even if you are looking at optimal 15man setups.

>

> You might take 1 Spellbreaker, you might take 1 DD, you might take 1 healbot Tempest or Scrapper. Outside this the groups are Scourges, FB's, Heralds.

>

> In WvW blobs, bring whatever, bring your Spirits Druid or GS Spirit weapons Guardian. It doesnt matter, but when you start trimming down the groups to 15 those slots become valuable and you dont have room for passengers.

I'll tell you in private. If people really don't know this stuff I'm not about to be the one to tell them.