Israel.7056

> @"TokenG.7863" said:

> Do you think the incompetent players enjoy being steamrolled?

Do you think I enjoy trying to carry incompetent players? Why does their enjoyment of the game matter more than mine?

>Do you think they will keep returning to WvW to let you steamroll over them?

I mean...yeah because they can blob up and steamroll they can play defensive and build siege. They have options.

>Surely you can see where this has and continues to head towards.

Everything that has a beginning has an end, Neo.

>Granted, there's not too terribly much to learn in WvW. Dodge, bomb, use survival skills to stay up. Stay on tag. Class meta changes every 6 months or so, so everyone changes the way they play according to that. Kinda sad.

Sad that it's so simple and yet so many people are still so bad at it somehow?

I would love another week of no downed state. Was great fun the first time.

> @"TokenG.7863" said:

> > @"Israel.7056" said:

> > > @"Shining One.1635" said:

> > > I'll never understand this mindset. What's the fun in running over 50 unskilled players with your 50 skilled players? When I played games (admittedly a different genre) competitively at a higher level, we'd spread the talent around so the matchups were more balanced and fun.

> >

> > I can't speak for everyone who's been playing this game as long as I have.

> >

> > My personal explanation is that I just don't have the time or patience to try to teach someone relatively new or inexperienced or just badly taught by someone else everything I know about the game after years of experience and thousands upon thousands of fights.

> >

> > I also happen to think that there are some things about this game that simply cannot be taught, they can only be learned through thousands of hours of trial and error and dedicated reflection and examination outside of the game.

> >

> > I'm not personally willing to sacrifice my satisfaction of the game on a daily basis for the possibility that it might make a matchup more balanced. In my view, the cost of trying to fix the competence gap is simply too high and too time consuming at this point to be realistically possible.

> >

> > If you're asking why the experienced guilds don't transfer all over the place the answer is simple: no one wants to have to try to carry an entire server by themselves. We recently tried it and it sucks let me tell you.

>

> And this is why WvW has suffered to what it is now from the beginning. Players who learned fast and "got good" gravitated to each other and developed this very mindset that their time is too precious to spend teaching recruits. Once you recruit and absorb all of the talent you become the dominant force. Its only a matter of time after that point that you conquer everything. What you have won by conquering over 6 years is a stale game mode. And you have only yourselves to blame for it. Enjoy siege-ing down your walls and gates and dpsing down your npcs.

Well first of all my time is too precious to spend teaching recruits but that doesn't mean everyone at my level of experience or greater feels that way. Some people really enjoy teaching novices.

Secondly I got to where I am by showing up and playing for years and I made friends along the way. It wasn't some concerted 6 year effort to consolidate talent it has been me showing up consistently to play with my friends. I could not know along the way who was going to be around at the six year mark and who wouldn't be. I just played with people I liked just like everyone else.

Thirdly I do not find gw2 to be stale. If I did I wouldn't be playing the game anymore. As long as there are people to fight and I'm still having fun playing I'll keep showing up to play.

> @"Shining One.1635" said:

> I'll never understand this mindset. What's the fun in running over 50 unskilled players with your 50 skilled players? When I played games (admittedly a different genre) competitively at a higher level, we'd spread the talent around so the matchups were more balanced and fun.

I can't speak for everyone who's been playing this game as long as I have.

My personal explanation is that I just don't have the time or patience to try to teach someone relatively new or inexperienced or just badly taught by someone else everything I know about the game after years of experience and thousands upon thousands of fights.

I also happen to think that there are some things about this game that simply cannot be taught, they can only be learned through thousands of hours of trial and error and dedicated reflection and examination outside of the game.

I'm not personally willing to sacrifice my satisfaction of the game on a daily basis for the possibility that it might make a matchup more balanced. In my view, the cost of trying to fix the competence gap is simply too high and too time consuming at this point to be realistically possible.

If you're asking why the experienced guilds don't transfer all over the place the answer is simple: no one wants to have to try to carry an entire server by themselves. We recently tried it and it sucks let me tell you.

I think population alone is the wrong way to think about balancing coverage. Balanced coverage is not just about having exactly the same number of people on each side in every timezone, it's about having the same number of competent players on each side in every timezone. The problem is that there are very very few competent players left playing the game in any timezone anywhere. They tend to want to play with other competent players and not have to carry and who can blame them?

> @"Burnfall.9573" said:

> (I suggest to shutdown wvw+pvp entirely)

LOL. Sounds like someone needs a break.

What role do you want to have?

Historically, the only time necro has done really well in roaming has been during condi metas. Every major necro complaint being raised right now has always been true. They've never had great mobility, they've never had invulns or stealth, they've always had a distinct weakness to 900+ ranged pressure. The difference is that in a condi meta necros can just run full trailblazer and run around with like 30-60k effective hp with shroud and 3.5k armor and 2k condi damage and have a lot of relatively long duration semi spammable mid range soft ccs like weakness, chill and cripple to make it much harder to engage the necro in melee or kite it at range.

So this is what happened: epidemic got gutted, the meta condi scourge build got nerfed with dhuumfire nerf and cd increases on the f skills and visual tells placed on the shades and the reaper chill/bleed shout spam build got nerfed when the chilling whatever trait got nerfed. So now roaming necros have to try to play power builds in a mostly power meta (with the exception of mirage) and all the major weaknesses of necro are on full display in every fight and they feel like this is something new to complain about because it's been a while since having meh mobility and being vulnerable to range pressure was this much of a problem. But that aspect of necro has never really changed. The distinct weaknesses of the necro class have never really changed. It's just that the op condi stuff got nerfed, they've added more ways to cleanse into the game and so the meta has changed back to power and power meta just isn't great for roaming necros.

The reward for playing a long time is being good at the game. No extra reward needed.

> @"Trajan.4953" said:

> Linkings and power creep really brought about the Age of the Zerg. Was a time you had many smaller guilds running around as well as the obligatory blob. Not so much anymore.

Think that has more to do with pubg than linkings or power creep tbh.

> @"apharma.3741" said:

> > @"Israel.7056" said:

> > > @"apharma.3741" said:

> > > > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said:

> > > > > @"Israel.7056" said:

> > > > > > @"lodjur.1284" said:

> > > > > > Clear/resistance is the same thing when discussing if you have problems dealing with conditions. Smallscale Power Rev doesn't use mallyx, condi rev in smallscale doesn't struggle more with power than any other build, no idea why you think I ever suggested to buff mallyx to better deal with condis (only buff it should get is the resistance from the trait applying before the heal but that's not really the topic we're discussing)

> > > > >

> > > > > Personally I run condi rev for roaming I think it's way better than power because it can actually deal with condis. If you want power spike for roaming bring a thief or ranger or even a warrior imo. Still can't 1v1 condi mirages consistently but I have a way easier time than when I run power and I am much harder to single target down in a group fight and much easier to keep alive if I have support.

> > > > >

> > > > > Buffing shiro's condi survivability would probably amount to adding more cleanse to riposting because I doubt they'd add cleanse to phase or impossible odds. Riposting is one of those skills that can easily become broken if it does too much because it's already a stun break a dodge roll an i frame and movement condi cleanse. They could put cleanses on the glint/shiro f2s but that wouldn't likely be enough if it's shiro/glint because you need a metric ton of frequent cleanses right now to deal with the amount of condis mirages can pump out. They could put more cleanses on staff or perhaps more cleanses on legend swap but then that would bleed into other builds. They could put more condi cleanse on the shield or revert the heal on shield 5 but that could get pretty broken pretty fast depending on what they did. Either way making shiro power rev condi survivable would probably break rev at that scale because other than being extremely vulnerable to condis shiro rev is pretty amazing. Like I said you might run into a situation where all of a sudden shiro rev would just push everything else out of the roaming meta like what happened when rev first came out but for different reasons. Shiro Rev needs to be severely vulnerable to condis for it to be balanced and I'm saying this as probably one of the most dedicated rev mains left in the game at this point.

> > > > >

> > > > > > Compcraft is more interesting the more viable options there are for each slot.

> > > > >

> > > > > I fundamentally disagree. Compcraft is more interesting the more structural weaknesses the group has to overcome through design, strategy and tactics.

> > > > >

> > > > > > Well then that kinda makes the discussion futile.

> > > > >

> > > > > If you're one of these people who thinks balance is fundamentally about build diversity rather than extreme tradeoffs then yeah probably.

> > > > >

> > > > > > Not really something we can argue is it? There is no official definition to go by here.

> > > > >

> > > > > There's no dictionary to refer to no but in this game the common usage of "small scale" isn't a group or less. In my experience there are basically four scales of play: roaming, small, medium and large. Roaming is a group or less, small is 5-15, medium is usually something like 15-30 and large is 30+.

> > > > >

> > > > > > Yes. You don't need to explain why statements I said are true.

> > > > >

> > > > > Clearly I do. You don't seem to understand why it's important to state why they're true. The +1 ability of a ranger is directly related to their mobility and long range single target pressure which is a defined strength of the ranger class. The trade off for ranger is that to have those strengths they have to run longbow and greatsword (or sword mainhand I guess but then they don't have maul) and then they become mostly useless once the fight starts to scale up or if the fight gets placed in a sustained melee situation because they have almost zero access to stab and what stab they have can be easily corrupted by a necro, particularly if they're a scourge but reapers will also eat rangers alive in close quarters . The trade off here is that necro has insane 900 or less aoe pressure and reapers wreck face in a sustained melee fight particularly with some support whereas the ranger is extremely mobile and effective at range and hit and run melee but really cannot afford to trade in a sustained melee fight or at anything less than 900 unless they're running druid and then their damage is significant reduced from a soulbeast. This is what balance is supposed to look like; severe tradeoffs.

> > > > >

> > > > > > Yet massively beneficial for me and most of the people I know who play the game.

> > > > >

> > > > > Perhaps but you seem to be incredibly biased on this topic which makes it hard for you to see outside your own particular interest here.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > Kindly allow me to chip in.

> > > > I think that claiming revs as weak to condis is not accurate anymore after the runes/sigils patch changes.

> > > >

> > > > I've fought revs who run cleansing sigils and runes of resistance and they put up a hell of a fight against condi classes. One even beat my condi necro using a glint/jalis build. I would say the fight was 60/40 in my favour but I got outplayed by him and lost.

> > > >

> > > > I think revs on the whole needs to rethink their builds with all the new condi clear tools available because I don't think they are as weak to condi as they were before the patch.

> > >

> > > I agree since the changes I don't think anyone can claim rev is weak to conditions. You can also take anti-toxin runes so everytime you cleanse 1 condition you cleanse an extra condition, pair that up with food for cleansing on heal and your heal removes 2 conditions, renewing wave cleanses 3, cleansing sigil cleanses 4, legend swap cleanses 2 and reposting shadows cleanses...not sure tbh but likely 1 damaging condition + all movement conditions.

> > >

> > > You can run these two on a lot of classes and be almost immune to conditions on the whole.

> >

> > It doesn't help discussions of class balance to conflate class features with build itemization balance. As you say runes sigils and food are available to everyone whereas class features are unique to each individual class and they consist of traits weapon skills and utilities which also include f skills.

> >

> > The rev class itself is still very weak to condi 1v1 in that the traits weapon skills and utilities do not offer much in the way of personal cleanse when compared to the condi output of things like mirage and/or low energy cost resistance.

> >

> > It doesn't matter though in any case because this is a team based game mode not a dueling server.

>

> Runes, sigils and food are very relevant. By getting cleanses from other sources it allows you to go all in on damage traits. Rev actually benefits from the runes and food much more than most classes. It's all about opportunity/cost.

I didn't say they're not relevant. I said they're not class specific.

Meta rev for anything other than very small scale roaming already goes full damage traits with full damage runes because the healing and the majority of cleanses are done by the supports not the revs.

The problem with discussions about 1v1 balance is that they don't consider how comp works to synergize class strengths and ameliorate class weaknesses. All these roaming necros need to do is make some friends and play in a proper comp with support and they won't have to worry about dying 1v1 to rangers anymore.

> @"apharma.3741" said:

> > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said:

> > > @"Israel.7056" said:

> > > > @"lodjur.1284" said:

> > > > Clear/resistance is the same thing when discussing if you have problems dealing with conditions. Smallscale Power Rev doesn't use mallyx, condi rev in smallscale doesn't struggle more with power than any other build, no idea why you think I ever suggested to buff mallyx to better deal with condis (only buff it should get is the resistance from the trait applying before the heal but that's not really the topic we're discussing)

> > >

> > > Personally I run condi rev for roaming I think it's way better than power because it can actually deal with condis. If you want power spike for roaming bring a thief or ranger or even a warrior imo. Still can't 1v1 condi mirages consistently but I have a way easier time than when I run power and I am much harder to single target down in a group fight and much easier to keep alive if I have support.

> > >

> > > Buffing shiro's condi survivability would probably amount to adding more cleanse to riposting because I doubt they'd add cleanse to phase or impossible odds. Riposting is one of those skills that can easily become broken if it does too much because it's already a stun break a dodge roll an i frame and movement condi cleanse. They could put cleanses on the glint/shiro f2s but that wouldn't likely be enough if it's shiro/glint because you need a metric ton of frequent cleanses right now to deal with the amount of condis mirages can pump out. They could put more cleanses on staff or perhaps more cleanses on legend swap but then that would bleed into other builds. They could put more condi cleanse on the shield or revert the heal on shield 5 but that could get pretty broken pretty fast depending on what they did. Either way making shiro power rev condi survivable would probably break rev at that scale because other than being extremely vulnerable to condis shiro rev is pretty amazing. Like I said you might run into a situation where all of a sudden shiro rev would just push everything else out of the roaming meta like what happened when rev first came out but for different reasons. Shiro Rev needs to be severely vulnerable to condis for it to be balanced and I'm saying this as probably one of the most dedicated rev mains left in the game at this point.

> > >

> > > > Compcraft is more interesting the more viable options there are for each slot.

> > >

> > > I fundamentally disagree. Compcraft is more interesting the more structural weaknesses the group has to overcome through design, strategy and tactics.

> > >

> > > > Well then that kinda makes the discussion futile.

> > >

> > > If you're one of these people who thinks balance is fundamentally about build diversity rather than extreme tradeoffs then yeah probably.

> > >

> > > > Not really something we can argue is it? There is no official definition to go by here.

> > >

> > > There's no dictionary to refer to no but in this game the common usage of "small scale" isn't a group or less. In my experience there are basically four scales of play: roaming, small, medium and large. Roaming is a group or less, small is 5-15, medium is usually something like 15-30 and large is 30+.

> > >

> > > > Yes. You don't need to explain why statements I said are true.

> > >

> > > Clearly I do. You don't seem to understand why it's important to state why they're true. The +1 ability of a ranger is directly related to their mobility and long range single target pressure which is a defined strength of the ranger class. The trade off for ranger is that to have those strengths they have to run longbow and greatsword (or sword mainhand I guess but then they don't have maul) and then they become mostly useless once the fight starts to scale up or if the fight gets placed in a sustained melee situation because they have almost zero access to stab and what stab they have can be easily corrupted by a necro, particularly if they're a scourge but reapers will also eat rangers alive in close quarters . The trade off here is that necro has insane 900 or less aoe pressure and reapers wreck face in a sustained melee fight particularly with some support whereas the ranger is extremely mobile and effective at range and hit and run melee but really cannot afford to trade in a sustained melee fight or at anything less than 900 unless they're running druid and then their damage is significant reduced from a soulbeast. This is what balance is supposed to look like; severe tradeoffs.

> > >

> > > > Yet massively beneficial for me and most of the people I know who play the game.

> > >

> > > Perhaps but you seem to be incredibly biased on this topic which makes it hard for you to see outside your own particular interest here.

> > >

> >

> > Kindly allow me to chip in.

> > I think that claiming revs as weak to condis is not accurate anymore after the runes/sigils patch changes.

> >

> > I've fought revs who run cleansing sigils and runes of resistance and they put up a hell of a fight against condi classes. One even beat my condi necro using a glint/jalis build. I would say the fight was 60/40 in my favour but I got outplayed by him and lost.

> >

> > I think revs on the whole needs to rethink their builds with all the new condi clear tools available because I don't think they are as weak to condi as they were before the patch.

>

> I agree since the changes I don't think anyone can claim rev is weak to conditions. You can also take anti-toxin runes so everytime you cleanse 1 condition you cleanse an extra condition, pair that up with food for cleansing on heal and your heal removes 2 conditions, renewing wave cleanses 3, cleansing sigil cleanses 4, legend swap cleanses 2 and reposting shadows cleanses...not sure tbh but likely 1 damaging condition + all movement conditions.

>

> You can run these two on a lot of classes and be almost immune to conditions on the whole.

It doesn't help discussions of class balance to conflate class features with build itemization balance. As you say runes sigils and food are available to everyone whereas class features are unique to each individual class and they consist of traits weapon skills and utilities which also include f skills.

The rev class itself is still very weak to condi 1v1 in that the traits weapon skills and utilities do not offer much in the way of personal cleanse when compared to the condi output of things like mirage and/or low energy cost resistance.

It doesn't matter though in any case because this is a team based game mode not a dueling server.

> @"oOStaticOo.9467" said:

> STEALTH is OP. I am fine with Thief if they rework their play style to not involve Stealth. I get that Thieves are dodgy/evady characters and can accept that better than I can completely invisible kill from out of nowhere. As I said, there is just absolutely no counter play to that. Just BOOM! Dead! You never see it coming and you never see it leaving either. Not to mention that you can't even interrupt the stomp because they are stealthed as well! How do you not see someone standing on top of you and jumping in the air to punch you in the face!? Stealth is absurd in this game.

You just need more practice dealing with stealth in this game imo. There's counterplay to stealth but it's preemptive as well as reactive counter play. Most counter play is just reactive ;you do this I do that kinda stuff. Dealing with stealth is different. You have to get ahead of them. You have to anticipate the ambush. You have to use context clues and visual and audio cues to prepare yourself. The instant I hear a black powder go off somewhere I'm paranoid, I'm getting ready to get jumped. I'm ready to dodge, break stun etc. Also make sure you have "look behind" hotkeyed and use it often. Watch corners, use your peripheral vision. A lot of the time your brain knows someone just went invisible somewhere in your periphery even before you're fully consciously aware of it.

By the time they jump you you should have been waiting for it. If they open from stealth and you had no clue they were there and no expectation it was coming you're already way in the hole.

> @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:

> It’s understandable why they’d want their zergs full of the most effective classes though so it’s tough call both sides are right.

No one side is demonstrably wrong. When you're doing any kind of squad based play you're playing as one single unit, working together as a team to achieve a common goal. People who choose to play what's "fun" over what works or what's needed are being completely selfish because they're prioritizing their fun time over what's best for the squad and in doing so they make themselves a burden to everyone else and a waste of a slot in squad and that's simply unacceptable. This is a team game, if you want to play for the team you are going to have to sacrifice some of your own fun for the good of the team, otherwise you don't get to play with the team.

It's absolutely no issue if people want to go do their own thing and run around on whatever build they please but once they're trying to join the squad they need to do what they're told or they get kicked end of story.

Everything rev except for ventari. Works pretty well against everything as long as I got some friends with me.

> @"Turkeyspit.3965" said:

> But, is there not some sort equilibrium here that the three professions that are not wanted in zergs (Thieves, Rangers, Engineers) also happen to be amongst the BEST duelist and roamer professions? The exception of course is the Mesmer, but isn't Mesmer always the exception?

>

> Also, while I agree Thieves, Rangers and Holos don't offer much to a zerg that can't be done better by a Herald, Ele or Scourge, I have to object to the notion that Medi-Scrapper isn't wanted. On the contrary, I see lots of commanders asking for them in their squad. It sucks that the Gyro nerf happened, but even after that, they still offer a ton of healing throughput and reverse boon-corrupt, which IMO is better than condi cleanse.

>

> It's also a very simple role to play, so the entry level for new players is low compared to a Firebrand. I'm not going to argue the math about whether a raid spot would be better filled by a FB or Water Ele, but I've been playing Medi Scrapper more and more lately, and not only is it very fun, but I've seen the difference it makes in fights.

>

> Pretty useless in a PPT/Karma train though, and it sucks at bag farming since no ret / reflect, but if you're following a fightmander, it's hella fun to play. Just my 2 copper.

Engi is pretty much mandatory now imo so the only two classes still without a place in medium to large scale play are thief and ranger and both for essentially the same reason.

> @"Limodriver.4106" said:

> I suggest every 1 mastery rank give extra 1000 hp so ppl should have around +30k hp by now with 2 expansion.

If anything people just starting should get the 30k extra hp. It still won't help them against someone like me but it would at least give them a chance.

> @"EremiteAngel.9765" said:

> > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said:

> > > @"Israel.7056" said:

> > > > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said:

> > > > I think it is mainly because most pug and guild commanders rarely think out of the box or don't have the players with skills on medium classes to make a difference.

> > > > They stick with the tried and tested necro guard combo which also happens to be easy for players to pick up.

> > > > People rarely like change and don't move outside their comfort zone.

> > >

> > > Ok so what do you swap out? Herald for soulbeast? Chrono for deadeye?

> >

> > Could work =)

> > I would give it a spin and maybe change engagement styles to suit the comp!

>

> I just thought of a good strategy!

> Soulbeast and Deadeyes excel at spike damage.

> 40-50 soulbeast+ Deadeyes could stack invis from far, then approach the enemy zerg without them being aware, and attack their tail with one-shot high spike damage.

> Soulbeast and deadeyes all can open with 20K+ damage from stealth.

> 40-50 soulbeasts + deadeyes one-shotting the entire enemy backline and cleaving them to death before disengaging easily with their superior mobility!

Try it out dude. I could see it working pretty well defensively. We did a soulbeast/mesmer/Herald thing a few times that worked extremely well in defensive fights.

> @"EremiteAngel.9765" said:

> I think it is mainly because most pug and guild commanders rarely think out of the box or don't have the players with skills on medium classes to make a difference.

> They stick with the tried and tested necro guard combo which also happens to be easy for players to pick up.

> People rarely like change and don't move outside their comfort zone.

Ok so what do you swap out? Herald for soulbeast? Chrono for deadeye?

> @"SkyShroud.2865" said:

> There's heal scrapper.

>

> In any case, in zerg play, is about synergy aka what you can provide and how it compliment the team. This "provide" is then compared to other classes thus which classes can provide better. That's how composition is formed.

>

> For these classes to be more viable, it simply has to provide something either unique and important or simply equivalent to what other classes are providing.

Pretty much this except for scrapper they don't do anything that another class can't do better.

> @"ArchonWing.9480" said:

> > The callouts are clear and frequent, the scouts can actually fight and build siege for themselves so 10 of them can reliably deal with a 20 man hitting a keep.

>

> Oh so you mean you don't have like 10 people asking for backup against 3 people when they're in the lord's room?

Precisely dude.

Most na scouting:

Scout: "need help"

Us: "where"

Scout: "here"

Us: "dude where"

Scout: "t3 bay 13 on inner we only have 12"

Us: "....can you stall??"

Scout: "its flipping"

> @"LaFurion.3167" said:

> I do both roaming and zerging. It's worse in zerging haha you touch a circle and you die

So some sort of comp and/or communication problem then.

Also worth pointing out bg still has some of the only dedicated late na/ocx guilds/zergs left and that kinda coverage goes a long way.

Also imo bg pugs are the best in the game at this point. As bloodie said they're all decently competent. They get in coms they join squad on useful classes and they play meta builds. The scouting is some of the best I've seen. Maybe kn scouting is this good but I can tell you mag/CD scouting was regularly atrocious. The callouts are clear and frequent, the scouts can actually fight and build siege for themselves so 10 of them can reliably deal with a 20 man hitting a keep. Like you really can't ask for more by the book play. So yeah they've got people but they're also just doing things right for the most part which is why they were able hold onto things during dead timezones against most na servers.

If you're dying constantly right now 15 percent damage reduction isn't going to change that. You've either got a positioning problem or a comp problem or some combination of the two. Or is this another roaming thread?

Calm down everyone vr is leaving when we start back up it was just a one night stand.