TeeracK.3601

Basically because the bloodstone magic was so strong that even after the stone blew up the magic of the bloodstone didn't end and those soul were sucked back over to it and trapped there. same way we see some ghosts in the fire island chain who were bound to bloodstone magic in that part of the world.

Okay so I have a bit of a theory about who mother is that I'm still trying to flesh out and think about.

When I heard the Kralk say "mother" I instantly thought of the creation myth of Grandmother Spider. Spiders are a big part of a lot of creation myths but the two I version of the her myth I want to mostly focus on are these.

># First Tale

>This story begins with Tawa (the sun god) and Spider Woman (Spider Grandmother) who is identified with the Earth Goddess.[1][3] They separate themselves to create other lesser gods, then create the earth and its creatures. Spider Woman and Tawa realized the creatures they made were not alive so they gave them souls. After this, they created woman and man from their own likeness and sang them to life. From there, Spider Woman separated creatures into tribes and lead them through the Four Great Caverns. After they came to their final home, Spider Woman tells the people the roles of a woman and a man, as well as the religious practices they were to follow. It is also noted that Fred Eggan found this version to be close to the Zuni creation myth.[5]

>

and

> # The Four worlds and the Emergence

> In this narrative, Grandmother Spider is also known as the Good Spirit. She acts as a guide to the creatures in the first world, helping them travel to the higher worlds.[6] She guides and mentors them as they change into different forms, slowly becoming more human. She leaves the creatures in the fourth world (the high world) to settle permanently.[4]

Now I'm thinking that mother is actually Koda and Koda is based around this Grandmother Spider Myth.

Some similarities between Kodan and Native clute

* A lot of Kodan aesthetics have an Inuit like themes, and the native Americans who had this creation myth of the Grandmother Spider were actually originally descended from Inuit people who crossed over from Alaska a very long time ago.

* The kodan they have a strong belief in the importance of being in balance with the world around them just like native people.

* The name kodan itself is a Dakota name. The language used by the native people in america and canada.

Looking over the text from "The Wisdom and Power of the Kodan

> Long ago, Koda, the Ancient One, Founder of the Earth, Keeper of the Sky, formed the world. In the beginning, the spirits of the world were wild and untamed. In time, many took physical form: spirits of stone, spirits of water, spirits of wind, spirits of soil, spirits of plants and birds and creeping things. All things with form have spirits... as do many formless things.

>

> But one day the bear stood up and looked around him and saw that the spirits of the world were restless and chaotic. He could not understand the endless cycles of creation and destruction. And so bear was the first creature to speak, and with his first words he asked Koda, "Why is this so?" And Koda was pleased and made this offer to the bear: "If you would watch and learn, then watch and learn, and you shall protect and guide the spirits of this world." And those who praised Koda and accepted this offer became the kodan.

This to me I think is plain and simple about the creation of the elder dragons and witnessing the elder dragon cycle. It also talks about how the followers of koda are guides for the spirits of the world. Which is the core idea for most of the stories about the Grandmother Spider.

Another thing listed.

> They believe that all beings are fated to come back again and again, but each time reborn as members of the same race—a sort of spiritual purity maintained throughout reincarnations. Humans come back as humans, charr return as charr, kodan come back as kodan. Only when you are greatly enlightened do you "advance," and are reincarnated as a member of the next race in the balance.

>

Again a strong parallels to the second Spider Grandmother legend about how they guild spirits on their travels are they grow and change and evolve to be more human(tho in this case it more kodan like, tho it does suggest and interesting idea between the norn, kodan, and even humanity if becoming more human is considered a higher state of being or something. Dont forget humans are originally from a different world sheppard to Tyria by the gods.).

Other notes and observations.

* The relationship between humanity and their gods as well as the fact humanity came from another world sort of reminds me of the way humanity is talked about in the legends.

* It also makes me wonder if the fact norn just look like humans isn't random, but maybe it has to do some with kind of devine evolution of their spirits.

* the way elder dragons create their minions mirrors similarly to the creation myth

* Things that harm elder dragons sacred flame, eternal sacred, Sohothin & Magdaer, Bran's bow. All of the things that work well on elder dragons are flame themed and we know that the Brazier of Koda was given to the kodan by Koda and it also has a similar effect.

* Koda's flame and warmth and even some visuals in old gw2 trailers suggest a connection to the sun and the Spider Godmother is also called the sun god.

* Spider's are often consumed by their children so maybe the elder dragons ate her?

Bonus idea

* If this ends up being true I cant help but also think about to how in the gw1.dat there was the section about Arachnia. A spider god older then the 6 and its remains were in the realm of torment. I know the .dat isn't considered cannon, but they can still use ideas from it. The first things I thought about when kralk yells torment at us was that this could all be tied back to Arachnia as either a courted mother or maybe the "bad" version of her considering the spider grandmother was also know as the "good spirit." If everything is about balance then it would make sense for there to be an opposite to mother and her guidance.

> @"Randulf.7614" said:

> > @"TeeracK.3601" said:

> > > @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > > > @"TeeracK.3601" said:

> > > > > @"Randulf.7614" said:

> > > > > > @"TeeracK.3601" said:

> > > > > > > @"Randulf.7614" said:

> > > > > > > The thing is, Krytan Centaurs suddenly joining Humans and other races after years of xenophobia and no lead in would be even more jarring. People are already criticising the recent releases for rushing through dialogue and plot points too quickly as some kind of tick box exercise. If Centaurs suddnely became an allied faction, then that would really give fuel to that.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > When I saw them in the trailer, I had expected them to be more of a flavour in a map out that way. Something to give a map a bit of extra layering instead of fully focussed on just the icebrood. But, that never came to pass.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Well that's not exactly correct. A lot of centaur are warmongers but others are more peaceful. The different centaur tribes have very different philosophy and some of the tribes do value peace. We met a friend tribe back in drytop. I wouldn't think centaur changing their attitudes would be any different from the flame legion suddenly being the most noble char legion in IBS.

> > > > >

> > > > > That’s why I specifically mentioned Krytan Centaurs who have yet to show any tolerance or tendencies to peace unlike their Maguuma cousins

> > > > >

> > > > > As for the Dry Top ones, they are wiped out and it’s unclear what tribes even exist elsewhere given their species was seriously under threat from all sources and devastated by war

> > > > >

> > > > > An alliance could work, but not without set up and there are no known peaceful tribes yet introduced

> > > >

> > > > Again let me just point out the did a complete 180 on the flame legion making them the more peaceful and noble legions when they were the most evil one up to IBS. They had no set up for it we went to Grotmar after no flame legion lore since 2013 and they were just like "yep a ton of flame legion charr are actually great guys."

> > >

> > > To my understanding, it’s a splinter faction of the flame legion that had joined the United Legions. I imagine there are still some unaccounted for flame legion with the old ideals.

> >

> > Yeah it is a splinter faction, the same way the dominion was a splinter of all the bad charr in all the other legions as well, same with sons of svonir, same with the modern crescent, the inquest, etc, but thats sort of my point. ALL of a group of people are never evil. They could easily explain centaurs being allies if some of the centaur just dont want to fight anymore. if the people of ebonhawk can make peace with the charr i dont see why its so out of the question for the people of kryta.

>

> There's a few diferences to keep in mind

>

> - The Charr are in general, a more civilised species -ancestrally warlike perhaps, but a more well rounded society. Yes, the Flame Legion were barbaric and religious, but a splinter group rejoining civilisation (and that's what Efraam etc did when they were invited back into the fold) is more likely here compared to the cenaturs who have no such place to turn to. There's no advanced society of centaurs that we are aware of for them to turn to or be invited back to. And to just join the other races would be very very weird. The cenaturs now are more akin to the flame legion in GW1 and it took a long revolution for that to change

> - The centaurs haven't shown any tendency for peace inKryta. They were still making war on humans as recently as LS3. I would have no doubt the bloodstone infection on them has not improved their outlook towards humanity either

> - No centaur tribe has shown any tendency to care about the dragon threat to want to ally with anyone. The splinter Flame Legion group understood the threat of Jormag at least

> - The centaurs took a considerable kicking in the war. I suspect there is not much left for them to give. The flame legion aren't an allied faction - they are part of a now united Charr race

>

> There is at least good reason why the Flame Legion group reunited with the World to do what they did. It may be a little jarring, but the nuances of their race allow it to happen. No such nuance for the centaurs exist... yet. Could an alliance exist? In theory, but it needs to be seeded. There needs to be something substantial for that to happen first. So for the writers to decide it wasn't going to work without the correct build up is the right call. They go a lot of criticism for not giving over time for things and rightfully so, but here is the correct decision. The time for establishing Centaur relations can happen later when they have the time and scope to develop it

>

> For them to have brought the centaurs in in CHampions would have at least required some earlier focus on them in the Icebrood Saga.

Anet left information on the centaur and the entire region of the woodland cascade pretty blank for a reason. The centaur haven't cared about the dragons because the dragons are all pretty far from them but in this patch we here dialog about destroyers pushing centaurs out of their land and we know jormag's influence crept into the north side of the woodland cascades. We haven't gotten really any lore about the centaurs and their tendencies since the launch of the game and a lot of time has past.

You're saying this and that wasn't show with the centaurs before not to the aid of your point, but to it's detriment. They haven't given us really any information or updates on the centaur. They can do anything they want just like how redeeming the Flame Legion was completely out of no where after almost a decade or no lore.

You're trying very hard to come up with reasons for why the writers are back into a corner but they have done a good job at making sure they aren't. They are super free to do what ever they want with the centaur. We already know from that_shaman's data mining that they centaurs were going to be allied races, so idk how you can argue all these reasons for how it couldnt work.

And just in terms of how the centaurs arent an advanced society the centaur are an ancient race with strong shamanistic ties, and we have hardly seen the lands most of them live in now north of kryta. The Harathi Hinterlands for example is as close as we get and half the zone is a massive centaur city. It may not be in the same style or as industrial as a charr but that is just because of their strong physicality, size, and culture not because they are primitive. Would you say the olmakhan charr just because they choose to live more off the land?

We really haven't gotten much information on the centaur from the devs in years and years so they can really do anything they want.

We literally teamed up with the frost legion last patch because we are that desperate to stop primordus. The centaurs likely would have been in a situation where they had no choice to accept our aid and it be those kind of actions like how the charr saved ebonhalk that would lead to future lasting changings to centaur relations with other races.

> @"ChronoPinoyX.7923" said:

> The problem with this theory is as Konig states, Kormir had literal interactions with Lyssa before the gods left Tyria. That interaction recorded in her diary shows that Lyssa was present at the time of departure so it wouldn't fit any scenario where Lyssa would be consumed by the Elder Dragons.

>

> At most, only Balthazar fits the scenario of being consumed by any Elder Dragon, and that's an aspect we had to fight _inside of a dragon_. If Lyssa, or any of the other Gods sans Balthazar, had any interaction with the Elder Dragons before their departure, more than likely they simply attempted to keep the dragons dormant for as long as possible. Past that, there's no real record of direct confrontation between the dragons and the Gods (one that would cause the twins, or any of the dragons, to consume Lyssa) until recently. Balthazar was adamant in taking on the Elder Dragons, making him the only real God that wanted to have any direct confrontation with them, and that didn't happen until after Lyssa, Kormir and the rest of the Gods imprisoned him in the Mists. The Gods always knew of the Elder Dragons as being part of the natural laws and balance within Tyria, which is more than likely why they never wanted to touch on the subject matter, or even interfere with it to begin with.

Actually she says "even Lyssa" as if there was some reason she wouldn't leave with them. If all her magic was consumed and she was left a mortal she could have been taking with the gods without still being a god or going darker if she was dead or maybe half dead(meaning one of the twins was eaten) she could have still left with them half consumed or as a corps with this theory still playing out.

> @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > @"TeeracK.3601" said:

> > > @"Randulf.7614" said:

> > > > @"TeeracK.3601" said:

> > > > > @"Randulf.7614" said:

> > > > > The thing is, Krytan Centaurs suddenly joining Humans and other races after years of xenophobia and no lead in would be even more jarring. People are already criticising the recent releases for rushing through dialogue and plot points too quickly as some kind of tick box exercise. If Centaurs suddnely became an allied faction, then that would really give fuel to that.

> > > > >

> > > > > When I saw them in the trailer, I had expected them to be more of a flavour in a map out that way. Something to give a map a bit of extra layering instead of fully focussed on just the icebrood. But, that never came to pass.

> > > >

> > > > Well that's not exactly correct. A lot of centaur are warmongers but others are more peaceful. The different centaur tribes have very different philosophy and some of the tribes do value peace. We met a friend tribe back in drytop. I wouldn't think centaur changing their attitudes would be any different from the flame legion suddenly being the most noble char legion in IBS.

> > >

> > > That’s why I specifically mentioned Krytan Centaurs who have yet to show any tolerance or tendencies to peace unlike their Maguuma cousins

> > >

> > > As for the Dry Top ones, they are wiped out and it’s unclear what tribes even exist elsewhere given their species was seriously under threat from all sources and devastated by war

> > >

> > > An alliance could work, but not without set up and there are no known peaceful tribes yet introduced

> >

> > Again let me just point out the did a complete 180 on the flame legion making them the more peaceful and noble legions when they were the most evil one up to IBS. They had no set up for it we went to Grotmar after no flame legion lore since 2013 and they were just like "yep a ton of flame legion charr are actually great guys."

>

> To my understanding, it’s a splinter faction of the flame legion that had joined the United Legions. I imagine there are still some unaccounted for flame legion with the old ideals.

Yeah it is a splinter faction, the same way the dominion was a splinter of all the bad charr in all the other legions as well, same with sons of svonir, same with the modern crescent, the inquest, etc, but thats sort of my point. ALL of a group of people are never evil. They could easily explain centaurs being allies if some of the centaur just dont want to fight anymore. if the people of ebonhawk can make peace with the charr i dont see why its so out of the question for the people of kryta.

> @"Randulf.7614" said:

> > @"TeeracK.3601" said:

> > > @"Randulf.7614" said:

> > > The thing is, Krytan Centaurs suddenly joining Humans and other races after years of xenophobia and no lead in would be even more jarring. People are already criticising the recent releases for rushing through dialogue and plot points too quickly as some kind of tick box exercise. If Centaurs suddnely became an allied faction, then that would really give fuel to that.

> > >

> > > When I saw them in the trailer, I had expected them to be more of a flavour in a map out that way. Something to give a map a bit of extra layering instead of fully focussed on just the icebrood. But, that never came to pass.

> >

> > Well that's not exactly correct. A lot of centaur are warmongers but others are more peaceful. The different centaur tribes have very different philosophy and some of the tribes do value peace. We met a friend tribe back in drytop. I wouldn't think centaur changing their attitudes would be any different from the flame legion suddenly being the most noble char legion in IBS.

>

> That’s why I specifically mentioned Krytan Centaurs who have yet to show any tolerance or tendencies to peace unlike their Maguuma cousins

>

> As for the Dry Top ones, they are wiped out and it’s unclear what tribes even exist elsewhere given their species was seriously under threat from all sources and devastated by war

>

> An alliance could work, but not without set up and there are no known peaceful tribes yet introduced

Again let me just point out they did a complete 180 on the flame legion making them the more peaceful and noble legions when they were the most evil one up to IBS. They had no set up for it we went to Grotmar after no flame legion lore since 2013 and they were just like "yep a ton of flame legion charr are actually great guys."

> @"The Greyhawk.9107" said:

> > @"TeeracK.3601" said:

> > > @"The Greyhawk.9107" said:

> > > > @"Randulf.7614" said:

> > > > The ls3 model had me wondering if they were going with a more salamander style shape. They did hint at retconning the GW1 model by saying that may not have been Primordus so I think it’ll be a unique shape if we see it in full

> > >

> > > They also took that back later on when they realized we weren't going to accept that kitten.

> >

> > I think after Drakkar they proved they are more then willing to greatly shape up the gw1 appearance of things when it comes to the dragons. The head we saw in S3 already looked a lot different from what we saw in GW1. Plus dragons are clearly able to evolve and change shape as they get more magic so it wouldnt even be an issue lore wise.

>

> We (being the lore community) actually argued for this point when they tried to go with the "Statue wasn't really Primordus" BS, as well as pointing out that previous statements in Lore and from Anet had already confirmed that the Statue was Primordus. You could probably find the old threads showing this.

Things from guild wars 1 doesn't translate over to guild wars 2 100% all the time so I don't doubt that thread exist, but I don't see how it really matters when they change the designs between games all the time. Just compare Zaitain's in game model to his cinematic model is insanely different and thats in the same game.

> @"Fueki.4753" said:

> > @"TeeracK.3601" said:

> > Well that's not exactly correct. A lot of centaur are warmongers but others are more peaceful. The different centaur tribes have very different philosophy and some of the tribes do value peace. We met a friend tribe back in drytop. I wouldn't think centaur changing their attitudes would be any different from the flame legion suddenly being the most noble char legion in IBS.

>

> The Centaurs in the trailer were warmongering and slavering centaurs.

> We have seen the human slaves in the trailer.

> If the trailer had referred to peaceful Centaurs, there wouldn't have been slaves.

>

>

>

If we got centaurs it would have been both most likely since they were already set up to be an allied faction they probably would have had them as an enemy but with some of them as our allies. We fought evil charr and had charr allies, evil dwarf and had dwarf allies, evil norn and had norn allies, etc.

> @"The Greyhawk.9107" said:

> > @"Randulf.7614" said:

> > The ls3 model had me wondering if they were going with a more salamander style shape. They did hint at retconning the GW1 model by saying that may not have been Primordus so I think it’ll be a unique shape if we see it in full

>

> They also took that back later on when they realized we weren't going to accept that kitten.

I think after Drakkar they proved they are more then willing to greatly shake up the gw1 appearance of things when it comes to the dragons. The head we saw in S3 already looked a lot different from what we saw in GW1. Plus dragons are clearly able to evolve and change shape as they get more magic so it wouldnt even be an issue lore wise.

> @"Randulf.7614" said:

> The thing is, Krytan Centaurs suddenly joining Humans and other races after years of xenophobia and no lead in would be even more jarring. People are already criticising the recent releases for rushing through dialogue and plot points too quickly as some kind of tick box exercise. If Centaurs suddnely became an allied faction, then that would really give fuel to that.

>

> When I saw them in the trailer, I had expected them to be more of a flavour in a map out that way. Something to give a map a bit of extra layering instead of fully focussed on just the icebrood. But, that never came to pass.

Well that's not exactly correct. A lot of centaur are warmongers but others are more peaceful. The different centaur tribes have very different philosophy and some of the tribes do value peace. We met a friend tribe back in drytop. I wouldn't think centaur changing their attitudes would be any different from the flame legion suddenly being the most noble char legion in IBS.

Considering all the wardens maybe one of them went to cantha to do something in echovale.

There was all the staff, axe, and sword masters from HoT and they were meant to be a bigger deal then they were we kept fighting through the expansion. We did a bit but we didnt get much story about them. Only the sword master do they suggest was a sylvari from the pact when you do the event in the top left of VB. Wouldnt shock me if the two missing firstborn could have been the two unnamed ones.

Idk how many of you are monster hunter fans, but in that game one of the elder dragons is Zorah Magdaros and its basically a big giant dragon with a volcano shell on its back.


I can't really imagine Primordus flying around and the great destorier had a turtle like body shape as well as a lot of its minions sort of looking shell like forms with how it shapes the stone, so I'm kind of picturing Primordus are a volcano turtle more and more.

I think this theory that a dragon ate Lyssa could also work with the DSD. It could explain why Lyssa gained the domain of water or been more of a foreshadowing thing for this. It would make the Priestess of Lyssa quote make sense. A conflict between Balthazar and the DSD at the Battle Isles would also be a great story beat. Part of why I say this is because the DSD is the most mysterious hidden dragon and looking back at some of it's old concept art it kind of reminds me a bit of Lyssa. 

there is also the ying yang looking water dragon in the new EoD logo that sort of themes up nice with Lyssa's whole two sided coin kind of thing.

I liked him. I think a lot of people got confused and thought he stole our glory not realizing the two different roles of the commander and trahearne. His whole thing was he was an explorer scholar and well connected even with non playable races. He united the pact and brought everyone together even the commander. the commander was the pact's greats weapon but trahearne was its common link that brought it together so it made sense for them to want him as the leader.

tied around the neck of the deep sea dragon as a trophy.

> @"The Greyhawk.9107" said:

> > @"LSD.4673" said:

> > Sylvari's the only racial story that's interested me. It's a real shame how these plot threads have been cast aside. It honestly seems like sylvari are done with now.

> > Not just the two missing firstborns, but what about the rest of the firstborns themselves?

> > So much wasted potential. The original plan for HoT must have been great.

>

> Obviously not if it was so quickly cast aside. Maybe it had good ideas, but failed to create a good narrative with them.

I've honestly always thought the early story of the game got ruined by big changes. I think people hated underwater stuff so much they cut whole zones and likely had to change the story so much. I felt like with the pirate them, season 1 starting with the karka, looking at the water map left of LA that was cut, and at least 2 other mate rmaps that got cut. It just seemed to me in its original concept we were going to start with the DSD after Zaitan, but they ended up shuffling dragons around because of backlash about water combat. Even the end of season 1 cinematic with the vines destroying the pact ships seemed like it could have originally been conceptualized to be tentacles coming out of the sea instead of vines out of a forest, but i guess will never know the original plan/vision for the game.

> @"Stephen.6312" said:

> > @"The Greyhawk.9107" said:

> > How would either manage to do this to Lyssa when the Six left Tyria centuries before the latest Dragon rising?

>

> I genuinely feel that there is something up with the timeline with which we have been presented. This forum hasn't spent enough time investigating the Mouvelian Calendar's idiosyncrasies to be able to articulate details about it that are, presently, largely grasped intuitively.

>

> Knowledgeable members of the lore community will remember that the Risen Priestess of Lyssa states that her "goddess was mere prey for the dragon". The priestess uses the past tense. She also states that Zaithan "devoured" the gods. So how does that work, given the timeline presented to us? It's tempting, downright easy, to dismiss it all as lies. Those who hear the priestess are divided about her truthfulness. The open-minded are prepared to question whether the priestess is telling the truth. Others are unwilling to even entertain the idea that she might be candid. But what if the priestess *is* telling the truth From a storytelling perspective, this is the only option presented to us that allows for the development of any further storylines.

>

> I'm not saying that I believe Teerack's theory is accurate enough to be reliable. But it's a good attempt. No one has ever really pursued angles like this before, certainly no one that I know of.

I feel like the dev's did a great job making it clear that the gods lie. Siren's landing and all the statues of Abaddon in the middle of Orr throw a big wrench in the idea that Abbadon was a forgotten god. I think if the human gods were willing to punish Abbadon and then change the memories of humanity it shows more then anything that the human gods are willing to lie. The fact Dwayna loved a mortal and the fact Balthazar went mad also further shows the how these beings are less then perfect and emotional beings so they are not always benevolent. Even stepping away from the gods looking at the tombs we found about the Murssat i think the dev's like to play around with the idea that the winners write history and we don't really know the full story.

If the gods took a big step back when they sense the return of Abbadon because they were scared of making another desolation. It was kind of implied they were still watching over the world until the rising of the dragons by kormir in pof. It wouldn't shock me if at one point the gods decided to give taking care of them a try when they watched the movement of the world and failed making them decided to completely leave the world.

> @"Fenom.9457" said:

> > @"Stephen.6312" said:

> > They might've eaten Lyssa. The best thing about your speculation is that you're trying to fit Lyssa in. Whatever question we ask, or theory we propose, can't hurt to do so.

> >

> > Thumbs up, mate.

>

>

> On the one hand I agree, on the other maybe it’s better not to fit her in. After the dragon plot is concluded, her story can lead us into a larger gods storyline with the 4th xpac. Something like:

>

> End of Dragons

>

> Season 6/Saga 2 in Cantha (so much space to cover in maps and so much going on there it’ll need another season)

>

> Then, either another season with lyssa leading into the fourth expansion, or the fourth expansion right from the end of 6 (similar to how 3 led into PoF without having much to do with the plot of PoF before the very end), and wrap it up in a season following the expansion. At least, I’m assuming the first post dragons plot will be about the human gods since they set stuff up a while back, not to mention there’s unused ideas from GW1

That can still happen. I would think if the Dragons were gone Dwayna, Malandru, Kormir, and Grenth would like to return. Half of the remaining gods are human after all.

> @"Fenom.9457" said:

> It’s crazy, but you never know. I mean I don’t think they actually ate them, that would be weird and incredibly cringey. But the idea of them consuming her magic and killing her isn’t terrible. I think there are more likely (and better?) options for her story but that’s possible

A a conflict with the gods pre pof with the dragons like this could also maybe explain the weird thing in the movement of the world where they state Lyssa also gains power over water. Maybe in that same fight they also absorbed away Komir's domain of water and that is why all of Jorma's minions just swim through ice and a large part of the far shiver peaks is now water.

It's just a thought I had. Jormag always lies and manipulates people. Jormag said they and Primordus are twin dragons. Baladazar had lyssa's mirror and was kind of crazed with vengeance over killing the dragons. What if what he meant when he said "they've dimmed my light" he was being metaphorical meaning they killed the person he loved Lyssa? :open_mouth:

Also in siren's landing I can't help but feel like Jormag is very similar in the IBS to the new scripture of lyssa we got in season 3 right before PoF.

> # A Parable of Lyssa

> From out of the darkness, there stepped a child into the campfire's light. And she said, "I am Lyssa, and I have come to teach you what is illusion and what is truth."

>

> But the soldiers there did not believe her. They laughed and said, "If you're Lyssa, then show us your beauty, for we can surely use it on this dark night. We have lost hope that this war will end."

>

> The child approached, and her smile held divine grace. "Share your food with me, and in return for your kindness, I will show you beauty the likes of you will never see again."

>

> And so the kind soldiers did, and the child ate with ravenous hunger. When the last bone had been tossed aside, and the last bean swallowed, the child began to skip around the outside of the campfire. She touched each man on his head, one at a time, as they laughed and jibed her until, one at a time, they fell into a deep slumber. Each man dreamed a different dream, but each dream was a vision of the life they would lead once the war was over—wives, children, riches, open air, health, and peace.

>

> And when they awoke upon the morrow, the child was gone and the enemy had arrived. They fought joyfully, with all their might, because they all remembered their dreams and knew they would win the war. Each man put his heart and soul into the battle, and each man, one at a time, was slaughtered._

> @"Fenom.9457" said:

> I really like this! Tengu has been a long and complicated discussion over the years but I think this version would be a pretty reasonable solution. What really excites me is the idea of a globetrotting living world like season 3, where we get coastal maps that have increasingly more water as anet improves and expands upon underwater content, followed by a deep sea dragon expansion in the unending ocean with features like a handful of underwater mounts, new underwater legendaries, and elite specs built from the ground up to work underwater (but still work on land too). I would like to see it take place much farther out to sea that you put your maps (the majority of the maps taking place in the large stretch of water south of the fire islands), but I really love your idea of the dragon vortex. I also really like the idea that zhaitain isn’t fully dead. People tend to bash on resurrecting dead characters unless it’s handled carefully and done really, really well, but if anyone should be allowed to come back it’s the dragon of death. It would even make sense to say we did kill him, but he’s able to resurrect if his body isn’t destroyed. Seeing as he’s still gravely injured it wouldn’t be a full length storyline to kill him, but it would allow anet to take another stab at making him feel like an epic threat on a level with the other dragons.

yeah if there was an version of the world map that was updated to Cantha i probably would have included far out places like the battle isles, but I've also wanted all of central tyria to finally be complete. Since the start of IBS I've thought if we did do a DSD expansion the battle islands would be the perfect hub like the way we stage things now in the Eye of the North. A raid location could also be south of dragonstand on the little peninsula to finally finish up the region.

I also had to keep in mind the locations needed to make sense for the people of Tryia to be aware of what was going on and care enough to do something about it. If it was all off in the middle of the ocean would anyone know or even care? As of now the races of Tyria doesnt even know of the DSD outside of some private speculation by priory scholars.

I was also thinking as part of this storyline as well we could have the Lagos show up in force to help us get their revenge on the DSD. Kind of like how in HoTs we allied with the Itzel , Nuhoch, and Exalted. It be the same sort of thing but way more fleshed out since it be across multiple zones. Was also thinking if the pact fleet is wiped out mostly in episode 5 we'd have to push on land and we could call for aid from elona so we'd get to see the awaken vs the risen in a big scale conflict.

> @"Fueki.4753" said:

> Tengu? No thank you. I'd rather have Arenanet spend resources elsewhere.

> There's also no coherent way a Tengu could suddenly become the dragon-slaying Commander, when he joins the team in EoD, having never slain a dragon before and hasn't been part of the Pact to earn the title of ~~Poobah~~ Commander.

>

> As for your story, it has a major flaw:

> If Zhaitan hadn't been killed of completely, other dragons wouldn't have been able to absorb his Death magic and the Risen in Siren's landing could not be unchained. Also, there wouldn't have been the discovery of the problem with the natural balance and that killing dragons is bad.

>

> After all that Arenanet pulled in Season 5 already, I wouldn't be surprised about some plot twist of Zhaitan escaping the Mists and reanimating his own corpse though. This twist wouldn't change your story much, but it also wouldn't disrupt all the lore that has been built upon Zhaitan's death.

Well no? The way I explained it tengu would fit into the story from the beginning easily if you read it.

And that's not really a flaw I think you missed what I was trying to say. Zaitain DID die and release all his magic, BUT his dominion was death. The entire concept for his theme was raising things from the dead, so he did die and loose all his magic, but because we never went into his heart/soul magical center like we did for other dragons we never fully killed him. Just shoot a dragon with a turret a few times is a bigger lore gap for elder dragons then what Im suggesting.

> @"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said:

> > @"Svennis.3852" said:

> > Interestingly enough, there was a guild chat where they touched on this subject yesterday (I think?). I haven't been able to watch it yet, but they talked about a cut centaur storyline.

> This is incorrect.

>

> Cut content, by definition, is content that was actually developed, but then removed. Either pre, or post, release. As they admit in their twitch stream, they never actually made the centaur storyline because they considered it too complicated to try to explain why the Centaurs were now your allies in such a short time.

>

> It isn't cut content, the content was never developed., or originally planned. It was an idea they had for a possible storyline. This contrasting to something like Malyck in HoT, who was originally designed to be in the expansion, but actually got cut out.

I've literally seen people use the term to refer to scrapped content that was only in the planned phase by both fans and devs 100s of times. You're arbitrarily making up a fictional definition of the term to try and make a nonexistent semantical point...

> @"Amanda Whitemoon.6173" said:

> it may just be a game mechanic, but this could also be used in the end, having them overlay a different effect at the end of the story after primordus died and they no longer need to be stone or something

Yeah there is also a lot or lore room here to. We don't even know who the great dwarf is. Since the dwarfs and glint were allies I always assumed the great dwarf was a converted dragon champ like glint but able to make people like the pale tree. The dwarfs could have been made flesh to break Primordus's control so they could build up their wills as mortals and resist his call like the sylvari were able to. Would also explain why the stone summit seem to now be allies to primirdus

> @"kharmin.7683" said:

> I would more easily accept dwarves over tengu.

why would you be against one of the core guild wars 1 races? Especially when they are a key example of tyrian fantasy(charr, asura, sylvari, etc) where they try to break away from the generic fantasy tropes.