Vallun.2071

If you can only play one class, why can't you just compensate for not being able to multiclass by being better at that one class?

- Not a drooling idiot

- Watches Happy No for meta advice

- Is low enough rating that scourge is considered OUT OF META

- HYPERNOVALUL

WHO IS THIS GUY??? POGGERS God of slayers? More like Slayer of Gods.

> @"jcbroe.4329" said:

> @"Vallun.2071"

> For the Druid suggestions, I think you have the right idea, although I'm not sure touching the LB is a change that would really solve anything in the long run.

>

> I'm sure you've noticed people are jumping at the opportunity to try and throw more ICDs on traits and rip functionality out of options they perceive to be too strong in a bubble because they don't understand how builds/classes work.

>

> So I was just wondering if your list would be agreeable to some of my suggestions to target the overperformance of the particular Druid metabuild trait combination by reducing it's crazy resource (Astral Force) generation compared to a build that isn't running Wilderness Survival (Rugged Growth) and Troll Unguent.

>

> Something like:

> * Reduce the time that Troll Unguent pulses down to ~4 seconds from 8 seconds (rebalancing numbers as needed). This would reduce "passive" Astral Force generation as well as reducing the amount of time Druid spends with a high Healing per Second rate that lacks counter play outside of Celestial Form while also introducing a layer of skill into using Troll Unguent so it isn't so forgiveable that you can basically use it anytime outside of Celestial Form and not waste it. Thid would open up a larger window of vulnerability when combined with:

> * Remove the healing component from Rugged Growth. It's never going to be a balanced option otherwise because no matter how much the healing numbers get altered, it's going to be a must have on Druid builds because of how it allows builds to stack so much Astral Force generation that it bypasses the fact that Celestial Form is a resource based mechanic. Change it to a simple additional damage reduction while Druid has protection (which would also resemble the old trait Rugged Growth replaced).

>

>

> Druids balancing factor/mechanic has always been that it's a resource mechanic, and unlike previous iterations of popular Druid builds that had to actively engage in fights while making sure they distributed Regen at a time when it wouldn't got stolen/ripped to actually generate enough AF to even think about using CF on cooldown, the WS/NM trait combination has removed all of the characteristics of prior Druid builds that made them counterplayable.

>

> If people were still running around trying to make the shout build work and the current build didn't exist, I don't think that Druid would even be on serious discussion tables for nerfs.

>

> That's why I'm hoping that people will realize that it's a very particular trait setup and skillbar that abuses the balancing factors/mechanics of Druid, and that those should be addressed so that overperforming builds get nerfed appropriately without hurting other Druid and other Ranger specs.

I agree but if you do those changes to druid it probably wont beat mirage 1v1 and probably lose harder to spellbreaker. I don't want druid to be unviable I just want it to be killable. I think that having really high sustain is fine for druid, but windows of vulnerability can counter that, like I said lowering their access to stealth because it gives them too much time to free cast their sustain, If they aren't in stealth more pressure can be applied while they are trying to spam heals, and if troll unguent isn't a free and easy cast for almsot full reset levels of sustain, it could be interupted, making druids have to CHOOSE when to use it rather than just spam it off cd. I guess they could still spam it off cd and use it early in case it gets rupted, but atleast u could counter that by saving your damage for after the healing wears off and then interupting the next one. But as it is right now troll unguent is uninterruptable by reaction, only by prediction.

thats just the difference between someone who comes in here with a personal agenda, and one who comes in with a wordly agenda, you guys are all looking for your class to be op. I don't give a fuck if my class is op, I played thief when it was considered unplayable right after rev came out. I want the game to be good, not my class.

> @"Ikki.7891" said:

> > @"Vieux P.1238" said:

> > > @"Ikki.7891" said:

> > > > @"Vieux P.1238" said:

> > > > > @"Vallun.2071" said:

> > > > > While many people are distressed that a balance patch did not come out sooner, many haven't really made any constructive remarks on what specifically should be changed.

> > > > >

> > > > > I'm going to try to detail some of the specific mechanics of meta builds that we see all the time that lead to a meta that is uninteractive, that has very little counterplay or skill involved.

> > > > >

> > > > > Mesmer

> > > > >

> > > > > The meta mirage build specifically involves combining two skills with no animation, jaunt and shatters (clones are good animations, but often the illusionary persona is good enough) to do most of its pressure. Putting some torch burns on top of this combo can do near 1 shots on persons without condi cleanse. The issue is not that they have 1 shot burst potential or that they have enough constant pressure to bait out condi cleanses. It is that most of this has no animation for a class that also has another great mechanic of the mirage cloak.

> > > > >

> > > > > So what is the fix for this? Traited torch burns could be lowered from a potential of 7-8 to like 5-6. Landing big burst combos should be rewarding still, but not to the level they are especially when mesmer has access to so many and so constant of cover condis. The internal cd between using stocks of jaunt (not the stock recharge) can be raised and remove 1 stack of confusion from it so that it is used more as a utility skill than a constant burst.

> > > > >

> > > > > Engineer - The main problem of interactivity with engineer is the timing of the damage tied to their dodge roll traits. If you compare holosmith to every other dodging trait in the game (daredevil, strength warrior, arcane ele) their effects happen some time after the initial dodge animation. Holo's damage dodge trait happens immediately as they dodge, and can add up to around 8k damage if the positioning is right for the other trait. For one of the highest damaging dodges in the game, it has too little counterplay. Either put the damage component at the end of the dodge (but showing an animation at the beginning of the dodge) or lower the damage done significantly. I prefer changing the timing of the dodge because this allows you to pressure a holo by standing on top of them and then moving in the direction opposite of the way they dodge to avoid the damage. Also possibly make the mines that drop from the explosives trait dodge take half a second to deploy fully.

> > > > >

> > > > > Necromancer

> > > > >

> > > > > Scourge has tons of corrupts on top of its insane damage output. I think that their damage should remain somewhat the same since they are significantly squishier than reaper (and I would propose some nerfs to firebrand which enables scourge to be so strong). That being said, one of the major problems with scourge is that corruptions are much stronger than boon rip because the conditions they apply are very powerful. I would tone down the durations of ALL conditions that are applied by corrupted boons, this is also more in line with the condition duration nerf a few patches ago, that didn't address corrupts.

> > > > >

> > > > > Also scourge has very little animation on their F skills. I like that there are combos for necro enabled because they are instant cast, but perhaps give less reward for spamming the shade skills at once. A 2 or 3 second ICD on dhuumfire and the torment applied by shade skills would promote using shade skills for both their supportive AND their damaging aspects rather than just spamming them all at once when you are sure that they will hit. This also wouldn't reduce the potential overall damage scourges do, it would just promote more interactive play by making the scourge think about what skill they use at the time, and allow the opponent some time to decide whether they can handle the pressure instead of being overloaded all at once.

> > > > >

> > > > > Guardian

> > > > >

> > > > > Firebrand is by far the best support build to ever exist. Combined with scourge it is the most effective 2v2 comp, and by itself it provides the most for a pure support role. It makes outnumbered situations survivable with the amount of condi cleanse and defensive boon uptime, which greatly reduces the viability of any dps class that doesnt provide tons of damage and corrupts or boon removal. The only counterplays to firebrand plus a scourge (note that firebrand is not very good without scourge because it doesnt have enough killing power and vice versa scourges don't have enough survivability) seem to be: play three point comp and rotate around it and make it be in awkward situations where it needs to kill things (but is obviously unable to help much in that regard), focus it with multiple dps classes, or just play firebrand scourge yourself. The first method requires a massive outplay rotationally and a strategy of "completely avoid this person" which is very uninteractive. The second method is extremely risky for little reward because it means outnumbering with a support class or bringing an inferior 2v2 comp to try to beat a scourge firebrand, and the third is not very fun or interactive for the 4 people forced into the 2v2 as fb scourge vs fb scourge. So how do we overturn the firebrand + scourge combo without making both of the classes terrible individually? Give scourge some more defense and less offense and give firebrand more offense and less defense. Out of all my changes proposed this is the one i'm least confident about. I don't really agree with lowering scourge damage that much or making firebrands be more of a bruiser role. However the issue is that firebrand scourge is not very fun and interactive to play, but will exist because it is the best. So somehow make it not the best or make it more fun to play as and against.

> > > > >

> > > > > Thief

> > > > >

> > > > > The main meta counter for thieves right now is the S/D core build which can deal with a lot of situations, much moreso than D/P daredevil. However it also seems to be the best plus 1 against necros and guards. A lot of this is due to the pure output of larcenous strike when in an outnumbering situation. The 7k crits while also being unblockable and boon ripping create very easy and thoughtless decisions. Of course there is much more counter play to larcenous strike than all of the other classes mentioned above, however precasting flanking strike and then stealing into larcenous still exists for bursts of 5 boon rip plus 9k damage. This is backstab levels of damage on a much more spammable kit. I would nerf it by about 8% both against booned and boonless targets. Otherwise thief is fine.

> > > > >

> > > > > Ranger

> > > > >

> > > > > Druid is without a doubt the best 1v1 class in the game right now. This is due to it having so much sustain from celestial avatar and troll unguent's ability to bridge the gap between each other. This is all fine because druid needs to have a niche for it to be viable, however there should be a way to counter play their sustain and finish them. As it is now, they have stealth on leaving CA and when landing a longbow attack (current meta build for 1v1s on druid uses long bow and sword, staff doesn't pressure current 1v1 matchups hard enough but certainly makes them much harder to kill) There is arguably no way a competent ranger who rotates through their stealth and sustain CDs appropriately should die. Even in 1v2s the ranger can stealth and reset while wasting time for the outnumber. The solution to this i think is to put a much longer cast time on the longbow 3 which stealths them. As it is now it has barely any cast time or animation so there's no way to prevent them from getting into stealth, then when they are in stealth they can freely cast all of their other sustain skills and get their sustain engine running. Also troll unguent should have a longer cast time to make it more interuptable. These changes should keep ranger in its top spot of 1v1er, but make it much easier to stun lock, disrupt, and plus 1 to actually kill.

> > > > >

> > > > > Elementalist

> > > > >

> > > > > Weaver is in somewhat of a questionable spot with no real role. It doesn't 1v1 better than druid, but it also doesn't do more damage than a holo in a skirmishing role, and doesn't provide that much sustain to its team. The meta is much too role-defined for a jack of all trades class to work well. However, with the mentioned nerfs to other classes it should be in a better spot. I don't think ele really needs any buffs specifically. Tempest could use some buffs to close the distance between it and firebrand in a sustain role. Stability and resistance is one thing that firebrands have that make them above tempests in support. Let tempests have something that guardians don't. Auras do not do much in the way of supporting other than the healing they give. One possibility is to make tempest a more aggressive support and make auras (just add this baseline in one of the tempest minor traits) increase the offensive stats of players as well. For example, 150 power and precision and condition damage while under your auras or might has an increased effect while under your auras. I'm really terrible at weaver so i won't propose any buffs specifically, but I'm sure someone else who wants weaver to be balanced and not overpowered can propose some.

> > > > >

> > > > > However, the sword weaver's sustain build with healing power has similarly uninteractive gameplay to a ranger. It of course has less pressure and less kiting abitlity, but it could become a really strong bruiser with constant pressure and on- node-aoe. My only change would be to reduce the amount of healing that the sword 2 in water does, which heals them for a lot more than I think is necessary to sustain 1v1s, but heals them enough to survive outnumbered situations they shouldn't survive.

> > > > >

> > > > > Revenant

> > > > >

> > > > > Marauders herald is really good at pressuring firebrands, but really bad at surviving scourges. The changes to offhand sword were good but there needs to be more self sustain for a class that requires to be melee to mid range for most of its damage. Compared to other classes, it has very low condition cleanse. I would improve the conditions cleansed by the invoking legend swap from 1 to 2, then increase the cast time of staff 4 so you can get your cleanse when you need it and not take too much extra pressure while trying to cleanse. Otherwise, no other buffs should be necessary if the above nerfs are made.

> > > > >

> > > > > Warrior

> > > > >

> > > > > Pretty balanced imo. high dps that allows it to be one of the only counters to druid in 1v1, but lacks the presence of a holo or rev in larger fights. I wouldn't change anything.

> > > >

> > > > I'm always amazed how ppl can slip in between the lines of there big text on how there main is so vulnerable or is in a weird position compare to others classes. Kinda makes me chuckle.

> > >

> > > What is his main?

> >

> > If you don't read the whole thing , how can you figure that out? hahaha read it!

>

> Weaver?

>

> How are you going to call someone out for bias of a class but can't state which one.

Maybe you should look at the links in my description and see what class i clearly main LUL

> @"BeepBoopBop.5403" said:

> > @"Vallun.2071" said:

> > > @"JayAction.9056" said:

> > > > @"Vallun.2071" said:

> > > > You gotta be joking man. Rev squishier and less utility than thief?

> > >

> > > Yeah what makes it tankier? Heavy armor lol? Or the heal that can be completely outplayed?

> > >

> >

> > Thieves cant even go near a team fight without instantly being CC and condi bombed. Revs can go inside team fights much longer especially with support they can make use of their life steal. Not sure what ur issue is, like not using the meta build or you're only 1v1ing, but just watch a good rev twitch.tv/jonasdon1

>

> Lol wut. 500hp POSSIBLY per second stolen from attacking enemies with vulnerability/from behind. Sick sustain. Not to mention the vulnerability uptime has been nerfed from Expose Defenses trait nerf, resulting in less life steal uptime. Can I argue Daredevil has killer sustain from heal on evade trait? What about the fact that power revenant has 2 easily deniable heals?

>

> Do revenants not get CC'd and condition bombed in your world? How about we compare how revenants can respond to conditions and CC (Infuse Light or die) vs how thieves can respond to conditions and CC with shadowstep and signet of agility? If your world consists of everyone bombing the thief instantly and revenants with long team fight longevity, you might be a thief main.

you might be a rev main btw haHAA. Apparently you missed the part where I said with support also rev has so many methods of sustaining in team fights. Most of its big hitting abilities evade or create positioning like sword 3 and staff 5, similarly to how a thief stays in a team fight except thief has very bad natural healing, and infused light is very good in team fights and makes up for most of the revs sustain. Not sure why you're up in arms about me saying that rev has better utility and sustain than thief. This is just a fact brother. Thief has better disengage, but that isnt sustain, thats leaving a fight which i never said rev had better mobility? :)

> @"Meridian.9103" said:

> I think this is a nice write up so far and i want to add some thoughts.

>

> Mirage:

> Another thing that adds to mirages strength is The trait Elusive Mind. The ability to break stun on every dodge is too good leaves mesmers unpunished too often. I suggest changing the stunbreak to the removal of a movement impairing condition.

>

May even want to give mirage cloak the same treatment as daredevil dash: If you break a stun with this trait then you lose endurance regeneration for so and so time.

> @"JayAction.9056" said:

> > @"Vallun.2071" said:

> > You gotta be joking man. Rev squishier and less utility than thief?

>

> Yeah what makes it tankier? Heavy armor lol? Or the heal that can be completely outplayed?

>

Thieves cant even go near a team fight without instantly being CC and condi bombed. Revs can go inside team fights much longer especially with support they can make use of their life steal. Not sure what ur issue is, like not using the meta build or you're only 1v1ing, but just watch a good rev twitch.tv/jonasdon1

You gotta be joking man. Rev squishier and less utility than thief?

Can't do that because then people just pull their router chords out instead. Also its just a base incentive to not play on unstable connection even if youre hoping to stay connected.

> @"JayAction.9056" said:

> > @"Vallun.2071" said:

>

> > Revenant

> >

> > Marauders herald is really good at pressuring firebrands

>

>

> Playing with all pve traits and berzerker amulet, landing a full rotation into a FB won't drop them below 50%. Nobody top 250 plays rev as squish as me generally.

>

> Balance team doesn't read this forum or so the devs said.

>

> Pistol whip initiative cost needs to double.

>

> Lmfao at @"Loop.8106" saying DH is in dump. Traps at their current potency still one of the easiest, cheesiest mechanics in game. DH is the only class I have tried and also succeeded in creating a spec in under 5 min that afforded me wins at legend... In season 1. When they were "bad" lmfao

God you must really be clueless. S/P is one of the weakest thief builds, it doesnt need nerfing and DH really is trash because it doesnt win 1v1s vs any meta 1v1ers (mirage, druid, spellbreaker) and is terrible for getting kills in team fights where there is tons of sustain. Rev's issue is entirely survivability not damage. I never had issues killing a firebrand 2v1 or 1v1. Your rev is literally a meme, and nobody else plays rev. I'm talking about meta changes not meme changes. sorry if this came off as a surprise to you.

While many people are distressed that a balance patch did not come out sooner, many haven't really made any constructive remarks on what specifically should be changed.

I'm going to try to detail some of the specific mechanics of meta builds that we see all the time that lead to a meta that is uninteractive, that has very little counterplay or skill involved.

Mesmer

The meta mirage build specifically involves combining two skills with no animation, jaunt and shatters (clones are good animations, but often the illusionary persona is good enough) to do most of its pressure. Putting some torch burns on top of this combo can do near 1 shots on persons without condi cleanse. The issue is not that they have 1 shot burst potential or that they have enough constant pressure to bait out condi cleanses. It is that most of this has no animation for a class that also has another great mechanic of the mirage cloak.

So what is the fix for this? Traited torch burns could be lowered from a potential of 7-8 to like 5-6. Landing big burst combos should be rewarding still, but not to the level they are especially when mesmer has access to so many and so constant of cover condis. The internal cd between using stocks of jaunt (not the stock recharge) can be raised and remove 1 stack of confusion from it so that it is used more as a utility skill than a constant burst.

Engineer - The main problem of interactivity with engineer is the timing of the damage tied to their dodge roll traits. If you compare holosmith to every other dodging trait in the game (daredevil, strength warrior, arcane ele) their effects happen some time after the initial dodge animation. Holo's damage dodge trait happens immediately as they dodge, and can add up to around 8k damage if the positioning is right for the other trait. For one of the highest damaging dodges in the game, it has too little counterplay. Either put the damage component at the end of the dodge (but showing an animation at the beginning of the dodge) or lower the damage done significantly. I prefer changing the timing of the dodge because this allows you to pressure a holo by standing on top of them and then moving in the direction opposite of the way they dodge to avoid the damage. Also possibly make the mines that drop from the explosives trait dodge take half a second to deploy fully.

Necromancer

Scourge has tons of corrupts on top of its insane damage output. I think that their damage should remain somewhat the same since they are significantly squishier than reaper (and I would propose some nerfs to firebrand which enables scourge to be so strong). That being said, one of the major problems with scourge is that corruptions are much stronger than boon rip because the conditions they apply are very powerful. I would tone down the durations of ALL conditions that are applied by corrupted boons, this is also more in line with the condition duration nerf a few patches ago, that didn't address corrupts.

Also scourge has very little animation on their F skills. I like that there are combos for necro enabled because they are instant cast, but perhaps give less reward for spamming the shade skills at once. A 2 or 3 second ICD on dhuumfire and the torment applied by shade skills would promote using shade skills for both their supportive AND their damaging aspects rather than just spamming them all at once when you are sure that they will hit. This also wouldn't reduce the potential overall damage scourges do, it would just promote more interactive play by making the scourge think about what skill they use at the time, and allow the opponent some time to decide whether they can handle the pressure instead of being overloaded all at once.

Guardian

Firebrand is by far the best support build to ever exist. Combined with scourge it is the most effective 2v2 comp, and by itself it provides the most for a pure support role. It makes outnumbered situations survivable with the amount of condi cleanse and defensive boon uptime, which greatly reduces the viability of any dps class that doesnt provide tons of damage and corrupts or boon removal. The only counterplays to firebrand plus a scourge (note that firebrand is not very good without scourge because it doesnt have enough killing power and vice versa scourges don't have enough survivability) seem to be: play three point comp and rotate around it and make it be in awkward situations where it needs to kill things (but is obviously unable to help much in that regard), focus it with multiple dps classes, or just play firebrand scourge yourself. The first method requires a massive outplay rotationally and a strategy of "completely avoid this person" which is very uninteractive. The second method is extremely risky for little reward because it means outnumbering with a support class or bringing an inferior 2v2 comp to try to beat a scourge firebrand, and the third is not very fun or interactive for the 4 people forced into the 2v2 as fb scourge vs fb scourge. So how do we overturn the firebrand + scourge combo without making both of the classes terrible individually? Give scourge some more defense and less offense and give firebrand more offense and less defense. Out of all my changes proposed this is the one i'm least confident about. I don't really agree with lowering scourge damage that much or making firebrands be more of a bruiser role. However the issue is that firebrand scourge is not very fun and interactive to play, but will exist because it is the best. So somehow make it not the best or make it more fun to play as and against.

Thief

The main meta counter for thieves right now is the S/D core build which can deal with a lot of situations, much moreso than D/P daredevil. However it also seems to be the best plus 1 against necros and guards. A lot of this is due to the pure output of larcenous strike when in an outnumbering situation. The 7k crits while also being unblockable and boon ripping create very easy and thoughtless decisions. Of course there is much more counter play to larcenous strike than all of the other classes mentioned above, however precasting flanking strike and then stealing into larcenous still exists for bursts of 5 boon rip plus 9k damage. This is backstab levels of damage on a much more spammable kit. I would nerf it by about 8% both against booned and boonless targets. Otherwise thief is fine.

Ranger

Druid is without a doubt the best 1v1 class in the game right now. This is due to it having so much sustain from celestial avatar and troll unguent's ability to bridge the gap between each other. This is all fine because druid needs to have a niche for it to be viable, however there should be a way to counter play their sustain and finish them. As it is now, they have stealth on leaving CA and when landing a longbow attack (current meta build for 1v1s on druid uses long bow and sword, staff doesn't pressure current 1v1 matchups hard enough but certainly makes them much harder to kill) There is arguably no way a competent ranger who rotates through their stealth and sustain CDs appropriately should die. Even in 1v2s the ranger can stealth and reset while wasting time for the outnumber. The solution to this i think is to put a much longer cast time on the longbow 3 which stealths them. As it is now it has barely any cast time or animation so there's no way to prevent them from getting into stealth, then when they are in stealth they can freely cast all of their other sustain skills and get their sustain engine running. Also troll unguent should have a longer cast time to make it more interuptable. These changes should keep ranger in its top spot of 1v1er, but make it much easier to stun lock, disrupt, and plus 1 to actually kill.

Elementalist

Weaver is in somewhat of a questionable spot with no real role. It doesn't 1v1 better than druid, but it also doesn't do more damage than a holo in a skirmishing role, and doesn't provide that much sustain to its team. The meta is much too role-defined for a jack of all trades class to work well. However, with the mentioned nerfs to other classes it should be in a better spot. I don't think ele really needs any buffs specifically. Tempest could use some buffs to close the distance between it and firebrand in a sustain role. Stability and resistance is one thing that firebrands have that make them above tempests in support. Let tempests have something that guardians don't. Auras do not do much in the way of supporting other than the healing they give. One possibility is to make tempest a more aggressive support and make auras (just add this baseline in one of the tempest minor traits) increase the offensive stats of players as well. For example, 150 power and precision and condition damage while under your auras or might has an increased effect while under your auras. I'm really terrible at weaver so i won't propose any buffs specifically, but I'm sure someone else who wants weaver to be balanced and not overpowered can propose some.

However, the sword weaver's sustain build with healing power has similarly uninteractive gameplay to a ranger. It of course has less pressure and less kiting abitlity, but it could become a really strong bruiser with constant pressure and on- node-aoe. My only change would be to reduce the amount of healing that the sword 2 in water does, which heals them for a lot more than I think is necessary to sustain 1v1s, but heals them enough to survive outnumbered situations they shouldn't survive.

Revenant

Marauders herald is really good at pressuring firebrands, but really bad at surviving scourges. The changes to offhand sword were good but there needs to be more self sustain for a class that requires to be melee to mid range for most of its damage. Compared to other classes, it has very low condition cleanse. I would improve the conditions cleansed by the invoking legend swap from 1 to 2, then increase the cast time of staff 4 so you can get your cleanse when you need it and not take too much extra pressure while trying to cleanse. Otherwise, no other buffs should be necessary if the above nerfs are made.

Warrior

Pretty balanced imo. high dps that allows it to be one of the only counters to druid in 1v1, but lacks the presence of a holo or rev in larger fights. I wouldn't change anything.

How is a 5 man comp taken from raids? Fractals meta has come about completely independent of raids. The builds like chrono and druid are just the strongest builds for PvE team play in that they give the most boons/buffs/utility per slot of that comp. So naturally a 5 man comp will want them. With that being said, fractals are becoming more like raids as the new fractals that are coming out with raid-like mechanics such as break bars and certain-person-gets-the-bomb it becomes more apparent that people need to know their roles. Anet seems to support more elitism in fractals now, so if you don't then the lfg for non comped t4 groups and recommendeds still exist for casuals

I started to make youtube videos again recently, here are the last three PvP montages I made.

Plan to make more and include WvW as well.

I was joking my dude, at this point ur just memeing and using helseth to derail the main argument which is that you don't want larcenous strike nerfed because you havent made it passed bronze tier where thieves spam flanking strike into walls

But how can best mesmer have a player skill issue :open_mouth:

Remember when everyone thought mirage was terrible and chrono was still the best condi mes? Now mirage is op because player skill issue people learned how to play it (also somewhat the warrior nerf). So yes player skill definitely factors into whether or not something is balanced. Aren't you a rev main or something? Seems like you're just trolling at this point ignoring points i make to delay this EZ win.

anyway I don't think it needs a massive nerf, just not 20% dmg on boonless targets, maybe 10% on boonless and its good

Also yes I think player skill issue should be involved in balance for sure. Wasn't Grim Patron Deck super OP in hearthstone but it wasnt nerfed for so long because ladder scrubs couldn't play it optimally and had average win rates, but in tournaments everyone was forced to learn the deck because everyone could play it at the top lvl

ok i clearly don't know what larcenous strike does even though ive been abusing it to demolish firebrand scourge combos in prime time daily ATs. I guess your argument is every monkey thief using S/D makes it balanced. My opinion is based on high level experience and proven results (i have plenty of videos of me playing S/D) and yours is based on the guy who comes into my chat and says "is dagger dagger thief still viable? i just came back to the game after 2 years" No Kappa

So you are then saying that the 4 cost of initiative from flanking strike is an absolute cost to larcenous strike? Absolutely not, its an unblockable decently damaging skill with an evade tied to it, And if it misses you didn't waste 4 initiative. If you do land it, which it isn't that hard to land because of the fact that its unblockable and evades before it lands, making it hard to interrupt, then you can use larcenous strike. At this point you should be arguing that you have to land two consecutive attacks in a chain to land larcenous, but instead you focus more on that you have to land one "terrible skill" (which i just disproved) just to be able to use larcenous. They flow from one another very easily, and you can even bait people to dodge because they know larcenous proceeds flanking strike, then save it for a few seconds later after they dodged. This flexibility further undermines your argument that it being tied to another skill succeeding makes it balanced.

@"BlaqueFyre.5678" All you're doing is pointing out that larcenous strike is tied to flanking strike and just keep going off the fact that I made it sound like larcenous has an evade when its really just closely tied to an evade. Ignoring every other point I made just to tunnel vision on one meme of larcenous strike being an evade. Potentially 7k dmg crits with 2 boon rips and unblockable are what larcenous strike has. You're still not proving that this isn't overloaded. I'm waiting for YOU to show me a skill that does more than this. Full-counter was nerfed already btw haHAA.

Also you say scourge has more boon rip but do you actually know what rips boons on scourge? If your argument is that scourge rips more AoE boons then sure, you're right, but that is irrelevant since larcenous is single target and will get the bonus of no boons just the same if your rip is single target. Quick maths for you. Steal rips 2 + 2 - 1 boons. I can meme too. All you've said is that the skill isn't OP, and defended that stance by saying that it isn't an evade. /thread

Not sure what your point even is. You think larcenous strike is completely fine? Even considering the original argument was made to compare S/D to D/P and a specific skill like backstab, which I said was fair because it was completely counterplayable (and even further not spammable because of the icd they put on stealth attacks). Now when I say that one build completely revolves around one skill because it is endowed too much power in comparison to the others, you don't even address my point and just say larcenous strike has counterplay to it.

You even say that one of its compnents is conditional, but on a build with the most boon rip in the game that component is only conditional on the fact of you actually landing steal. So your argument is that bad thieves will be bad at spamming larcenous and good thieves will be good at spamming larcenous. Thats still spamming larcenous because its overpowered. And let's not conflate spamming a skill with mindlessly mashing it. Of course you should time your skills, but it doesn't change the fact that larcenous is very broken overpowered. It is literally why S/D is viable right now. You have a spammable damaging skill which allows you to win 1v1s while D/P has front loaded burst which cant be followed through with if the enemy kites intelligently. Do I want S/D to not be viable? No, what I'm saying is larcenous strike is broken and if they want S/D to be viable they should actually design things well instead of just massively boost numbers.

mind you this is on a build that has 2 steals which rip 6 boons (not competing for animation time with larcenous), and spammable larcenous for ripping of 2 boons each, and then a 7k larcenous number to top it off. All i'm saying is they need to lower the damage a little so that it gives you more incentive to use autos or even cloak and dagger stealth attack for damage and then use larcenous when you need a little damage and also boon rip. Choices not predetermined rotations

@BlaqueFyre.5678

Ok so your argument is that larcenous strike is not by far the strongest skill on the S/D set because it is tied to flanking strike which comes at certain costs (though i wouldn't say too much now that its unblockable and can be used independently as a decent skill itself). But my argument is even with all of the costs of having it tied to another skill, it is still too much value for how little cost it has. I'm not trying to say that larcenous has no counterplays, I'm saying that for balance reasons it needs to be nerfed.