Belorn.2659

Its not one player vs an other player mode. Sorry. Some people like to roam and pretend it is spvp, and more fun for them if they enjoy it, but wvw is about the battle. The one thing WvW has consistently asked for is better GvG support, not arenas where players can do one-vs-one fights. Guess why? The game already have a PvP mode where player can test their skill against other players.

WvW is not PvP. It is in the name. sPvP is PvP. WvW is server vs server, or rather the guilds within a server vs the guild of an other server. Almost everything they added to WvW has had a connection to guilds, with mounts being a rather large exception.

Alliances would be the large patch to cement this. Their design is not to destroy zergs, but to structure them towards guilds.

I was quite surprised by this change since bloodstone fen has the easiest daily rewards of all the living story areas. It is even on my daily farming rotation since for minimal effort you get 3k karma per day which is nice.

For those that don't know, if you just go to the area, glide and press random buttoms you get 1.5k karma, 1 ruby and some free xp. If you extend your time investment with an additional 30s you can glide into magic and get an additional 1.5k karma and 1 ruby + some minor magic and xp. There is almost always also a banner at the ship, at least on NA servers. Who or whom pops those every single patch I do not know but they are always there within a day or so after patch.

We have now seen how the warclaw effect the game both in zerg play and roaming, but most threads are about the zerg experience with little discussion about how it effects roaming.

I have tested a bit on DD and the mount extra 3 dodges makes for an incredible fast speed between camps. With 3 dashes using energy, infiltrator's arrow using initiative, mount dodges using mount energy, shadow step, and steal, you just switch between the different energy bars.

On the flip side, defense on mounts is also noticeable faster in getting rushing from spawn to camp. Never has it been more important to quickly clear the camp of npc so that white swords notify the enemy as late as possible. Especially important for north camp on alpine BL.

Because the speed increase is not from the mount walking speed but rather the extra dodge bar with its own energy meter, the effect of owned territory is minimal on speed. I did not expect that and I wonder if it was intended.

Defending camps on alpine BL will become significant easier with this patch. The time to get from spawn to nw/ne/n camp is cut by almost 1/3, as is from either keep if they have a wp. A defender should now have enough time to watch the map for swords (or use a third-party app), and port -> mount -> get there before objective is capped.

As a result we should expect to see more upgraded towers and keeps after the patch, which may result in more static game play. I also predict that with faster defense, havoc teams will easier be hunted down and wiped, resulting in few havoc groups and more stacking on the same map in larger blobs.

The new sniff skills also makes golem rush tactics less effective, and I would expect scouts to use the sniff skill next to keeps as soon as outnumbered buff pops.

The question is if giving defense this huge boost is beneficial to the game mode. I have seen a lot of people asking for better rewards for playing defensive, but I don't recall if people wanted to make defense stronger.

So now we know the details and we can finally discuss the ramifications with more than just a trailer.

For roaming the effect is about as bad as people thought it was going to be. Defence got a huge boost, and I would like to see an increase in the time between a objective being attacked and white swords. With the mount I suspect a player can go back to spawn and run to a camp way before the objective is taken, which mean you don't need to position defenders at camps.

The "mark" skill is worryingly similar named as the marked debuff which impact stealth. I *really* hope this won't become a counter to veil/mass invis play.

The chain skill is one of the highlights as it mostly a worthless skill. 2k per 1 supply is not that great, and it doesn't replace mass alpha golems or rams since you can only use 3 mounts per gate. It does however mean that defenders *must* fully repair gates as leaving a gate at single digit is now the same as having it broken.

For some numbers, a basic gate has 373,500 hp. 2,000 damage with 25 supply is 50,000. You need like 8 players, and in that case it is more supply effective to just make a ram. Alternative you could run back and forth to a camp but again the siege is faster done with a ram.

> @"Turkeyspit.3965" said:

> > @"Belorn.2659" said:

> > Lets use some very loose counting and rounding the numbers a bit, and I will also start with MO as it is the closest we have to a golem. The average power dps player has around 23k dps where about 3k came from banners. The average banner slave personal dps is 19k, where 2k came from banners. The total damage banners give is then 5*3 +2 = 17k, giving the banner slave a total dps of 19-2 + 5*3+2 = 34k dps vs the 23 -3 = 20k that an additional dps role would bring to the table. 34 is a bigger number than 20, so a banner slave is better when paired with 5 power dps players. With the nerf we can simply half that banners effect making the warrior doing 19-2 + (5*3 +2)/2 = 25.5. 25.5 is also a bigger number than 20.

> >

>

> Interesting stuff. So what about in a fractal environment? Are BS still worth taking, or would it be better to run DPS warrior with banners?

Fractals parties are already half the size, so it depend even more on composition. Lets make the same calculations for Siax (https://gw2raidar.com/global_stats/area-17028). I will use the average dps of 20k that dh has, mostly because it has the highest reports and seems like a very average of averageness.

The DH then does 17k + 3k from banners, and the bs does 11k + 2k from banners. Assuming you have a comp of 1 druid, 1 chrono , 2 dh and 1 bs you get 11+2+3*2 = 19 for the bs. With the nerf you get 11 + (2+3*2)/2 = 15k. 17 > 15, so I would say that in that composition in fractals you should not bring a banner slave. With 4 dps you break even.

But I would be wrong to not point out that my numbers are conservative, rounded to nearest whole number in multiple places, and disregard any benefit to the chrono . A banner slave also do more than just dps like CC, but I think there is a strong case to bring a higher dps class if the build has equal access to many strong CC.

There looks to be some confusion over the exact wording of the upcoming patch notes, but I think the most accurate interpretation is for raiding:

Major nerfs:

Banners loses -42% of the stats gain to the group.

The warrior itself looses -22% of banners stats and twice a much DPS loss to banner cast time.

Winds of Disenchantment reduce DPS to zero while being used, and can't be used in cases like dhuum.

Minor improvements:

Banners can no longer be mistakenly be used when someone intend to resurrect a player

Possible easier to move banner placement as a fight progress

Battle Standard can cause damage. Relevance is unknown.

To be fair, banners was the single highest DPS increase in the game, with banners alone calculated to provide about around 13% dps increase per player. (

With some simplification, If we assume the old standard pug meta of 2 druids, 2 chrono, 1 bs and 5 dps what we get is strength banner represented alone 65% of an additional power DPS player. For condi we are talking about a bit above half 37.5%.

With the nerfs, what anet did was to bring power down to the same level as old condi, ie 37.5% with 5 power dps. For condi we are talking about 21%. This makes bringing a warrior for fights a question if the warrior personal dps + banners dps is higher or lower than an additional dps role. Here we can use gw2raidar to get a bit of a hint for specific bosses (https://www.gw2raidar.com/).

Lets use some very loose counting and rounding the numbers a bit, and I will also start with MO as it is the closest we have to a golem. The average power dps player has around 23k dps where about 3k came from banners. The average banner slave personal dps is 19k, where 2k came from banners. The total damage banners give is then 5*3 +2 = 17k, giving the banner slave a total dps of 19-2 + 5*3+2 = 34k dps vs the 23 -3 = 20k that an additional dps role would bring to the table. 34 is a bigger number than 20, so a banner slave is better when paired with 5 power dps players. With the nerf we can simply half that banners effect making the warrior doing 19-2 + (5*3 +2)/2 = 25.5. 25.5 is also a bigger number than 20.

Now for the other bosses you get more noise, but lets just decide from a glance on Samarog that a dps role should hit around 13k and a bs around 10k. The banner brought 1.5k for the dps and 1k for the bs. 9 + 1.5*5 + 1 = 17.5k vs 11.5k. With the nerf the bs does 13.25k vs 11.5k that a additional power role would bring.

What about condi? Lets start with golem cairn: 20k average for condi dps and 14k for average condi banner. Banners bring in this case half the effectiveness, so we get 1.5k per dps and 1k for the warrior. 13+1.5*5 +1 = 21.5k vs 18.5k that an additional dps role would bring. With the nerf the warrior does 13 + (15*5+1)/2 = 17 vs 18.5k that a dps role bring. 17k is less than 18.5k, so in cairn you should no longer bring a banner warrior if you use 5 condi dps and 5 support.

I was about to do the same calculations for matt which is a more complicated condition boss, but the numbers are basically identical.

The margins and additional consideration is when you consider groups with fewer support roles and the dps from support roles. The general rule of banner slaves always being good is not as true as it once was, but it is likely still true for power encounter. For condition encounters I would claim that it depends on the group.

For the next days, **don't** invest too much. There is a balance patch in the air and we don't know what it has in store.

Current meta is power dd, power chrono, weaver sword, renegade and mirage. Power chrono is the most tipped candidate to get hit harshly, together with possible mirage, but we won't know until the patch hit. Most likely next Tuesday but it is all up in the air given recent development.

> @"Fleabite.7528" said:

> ArenaNet says it's relaxed about players selling raid spots ingame. But the market itself is a grey one, with little clarity for those interested in paying for a slot. So in the spirit of more transparency, some thoughts and answers for the following would be really great:

>

> 1. What's the current going rate for a pay-for slot per raid wing? Does it vary server to server, or wing to wing? Even boss to boss?

It vary depending on which group does the selling, which boss, and how many you buy in one go. Since there is no central market place the prices depend on what you can negotiate with the seller.

> 2. How do buyers know they're getting a good (or bad) deal? What should they watch out for - positives and negatives.

Easiest is to ask multiple groups if you want to get a feel for the price, or ask in map for a third-party recommendations. I am unsure about anets forum policy so I won't name groups I would recommend here on the forum.

> 3. How much involvement should a pay-for raider expect on a run? Will they be expected to stay put and let others do the work? Or are they expected to get involved?

Depend on sell group. At minimum you need to be online and be able to /gg at the start if requested. Some guilds are happy to help the buyer be involved if they want to, which basically mean they can explain the raid a bit to the buyer during the run. Like any service minded people who is extremely interested in their "job", expect them to be more than happy to talk about what they are doing if that is what the customer wants :).

> 4. Are most raid achievements possible for pay-for raiders? Or are some or most achievements in fact off limits?

Yes. Legendary armor is a bit on the expensive end since it require quite a few kills, but I know a few who has done it.

> 5. For those selling raid slots, what are the most frequent issues and complaints which crop up when it comes to managing your clients' expectations? (both them to you and you to them)

From the seller perspective it is mostly that the buyer don't showing up on arranged time. Can't say about the client perspective because I never heard anyone complain, but I could imagine if a group actually fail to deliver that someone might complain about wasted time (or worse if they paid a lot upfront).

> 6. What happens if a pay-for raider gets ripped off, or receieves a poor service? What happens if the provider gets ripped off? (can that even happen?)

Never seen that happen, but I would assume it does happen. To my knowledge there isn't much of a buyer/seller protection offered by anet.

> 7. Should there be a way of rating a pay-for provider ingame, (eg like Trip Adviser, YouTube), and that rating being visible to others ?

> My hope here is to demystify the pay-for raidslot process a bit - so please be frank and positive!

Donno.

> @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > @"Belorn.2659" said:

> > Before mirage Matthias was berserker warrior favoured and before that fire brand favoured, and before that Soul beast favoured. I think scourge also had their time. Matthias has never been power favoured in any meta, including the ones before the confusion change.

> >

>

> I know, this was to argue that short burst phases are not automatically power favored as people always like to make out. Matthias has always been a fight where movement and how well a class can perform their dps under this limitation is subject to.

Matthias has been condi favoured since it has no condition reseting phases and does not stand still for aoe or other skills which favor a boss that stand still. It is also a mechanic heavy fight which require both a lot of CC and reflects, which forces players to prioritize part of the party to other aspects than exclusively DPS.

> > @"Belorn.2659" said:

> > Desmina was initial mirage, then berserker warrior, then epi bounce and then back to mirage.

>

> Again, favoring the build which best deals with the movement impairment and requirement (or absolute dps which was insane with epidemic).

The build that do best dps depend on multiple factors, one being movement. There are power classes that deal decently with movement, but here the attack speed of the boss gives confusion an additional edge.

> > @"Belorn.2659" said:

> > Twins has always been mirage.

> >

>

> Yup, and?

And what? Not everything need to be a confrontation. The dodge and evade function is built-in with mirage rotation, where other build would need to sacrifice rotation in order to stay alive. This give a major advantage to mirage in this specific fight. Renegade is about 2/3 of a mirage for DPS on this fight, where the difference on a small golem would be very different.

> > @"Belorn.2659" said:

> > Xera, sab and gor is the ones that seen most swings between condi and power depending on benchmarks and patches. I would even go as far as say that next patch will change the meta for those bosses, regardless what the patch include.

> >

>

> Because the fights are close to a damage golem and the highest dps wins. Again, having permanent or near permanent access to damaging a boss is no automatic reason that condition is favored. Hence the argument that condition damage is favored against bosses with low invul phases is bogus.

Bosses that has condition resetting phases reduces the effective of conditions. Gor has that, making the ramp up time a major disadvantage in groups that burst him down fast enough to not do updraft which is the majority now days. Gor currently favor burst damage classes and builds, similar to KC. It is one of the bosses that Anet should give a health buff to in order to compensate for power creep.

> > @"Belorn.2659" said:

> > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:

> > > > Lets ask a question. Why do some boses favor cond and some power. Generaly fights with short phases favkr power and without phases condi. Boss that has no phases, and is not moving/atacking fast would be a golem. Thats why 2 main condi dps classes are mirage and renegade

> > > The only fight where condition damage comes out on top where movement is of less concern is Dhuum. That's mostly due to Renegade being top dps on large hit boxes AND being very useful on the fight (bringing his own boon removal).

> >

> > Boon removal is not a major factor. In the past we either had the off chrono sacrifice one utility for disenchanter, or people brought spell breaker. Renegade is more convenient and can also clear out south, but if a better DPS choice can consistently do higher DPS then that will replace renegade. Renegade replaced the DE thieves meta for dhuum, which had none of the convenient aspects but did bring a lot of DPS pre-nerf.

>

> I did mention that highest dps on Dhuum was due to Renegade being top dps on large hitboxes didn't I? Again, what is your argument?

Did you forget that you said "bringing his own boon removal" was very useful? Its a minor bonus that see its best utilization when low manning.

> Mine is this: division between condition damage and power is currently decided on the basis of how much movement is involved, and if enough movement is part of the fight, Mirage gets chosen due to its unique mechanics. In all other cases power builds win UNLESS there is a condition damage dps build which does more damage (only on Dhuum Renegade) or builds within the class are heavily skewed towards one of both damage types and the class needs to get taken along (warrior).

Movement effects specific skills. Not all power classes are effected by it, nor is all condition classes in favored when there is a lot of movement. Condition classes are effected by phases and condition-reseting mechanics which limits heavily what bosses they can be effective on. In addition to that, confusion stacks are effected by skill activation which is an internal aspect to each raid boss. Dhuum 10% phase is a prime example of this where proper confusion stacking can give mirage something like 60-100k dps for a very short burst.

Before mirage Matthias was berserker warrior favoured and before that fire brand favoured, and before that Soul beast favoured. I think scourge also had their time. Matthias has never been power favoured in any meta, including the ones before the confusion change.

Cairn follow a similar line. When we had a weaver meta cairn was know as a pain because of the mechanics, so everyone just went condi.

Desmina was initial mirage, then berserker warrior, then epi bounce and then back to mirage.

Twins has always been mirage.

Xera, sab and gor is the ones that seen most swings between condi and power depending on benchmarks and patches. I would even go as far as say that next patch will change the meta for those bosses, regardless what the patch include.

> @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:

> > Lets ask a question. Why do some boses favor cond and some power. Generaly fights with short phases favkr power and without phases condi. Boss that has no phases, and is not moving/atacking fast would be a golem. Thats why 2 main condi dps classes are mirage and renegade

> The only fight where condition damage comes out on top where movement is of less concern is Dhuum. That's mostly due to Renegade being top dps on large hit boxes AND being very useful on the fight (bringing his own boon removal).

Boon removal is not a major factor. In the past we either had the off chrono sacrifice one utility for disenchanter, or people brought spell breaker. Renegade is more convenient and can also clear out south, but if a better DPS choice can consistently do higher DPS then that will replace renegade. Renegade replaced the DE thieves meta for dhuum, which had none of the convenient aspects but did bring a lot of DPS pre-nerf.

woodenpotatoes also brought up wvw territory as a possible limitation on mounts, but that it doesn't make sense as if mounts are an offensive tool to take down gates.

As for rams, I am less worried that rams become obsolete than that alpha golems get obsolete. From what we have seen there is very little difference between an alpha golem and a mount, except that the golem cost supply and is slow. The mount then simply become a buffed version.

We have all seen the trailer, but is there any information given that said you need or don't need supply, tactic activator, or that it can or can't be destroyed/disabled by damage or disablers?

Assuming it either cost supply or an activator, from what I have seen we are getting a new type of siege golem with new fancy animations, customizable skin (something people have requested in the past for siege weapons), and maybe a leap skill? As far as abilities it seems to be something between anti-player and siege, so basically a improved alpha Siege Golem which can target doors and leap onto players.

> @"Chris McSwag.4683" said:

> > @"Belorn.2659" said:

> > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > > @"Belorn.2659" said:

> > > > DO NOT GO POWER. I am capitalizing this part since many comments above talk about power as having a lot more use, but they miss the core design that Anet has made in the last few years which is not looking like they are moving away from any time soon.

> > > >

> > > > Condition damage is designed to have the highest damage in the game in long encounters. Power is only used as an exception where the boss has short damage phase with a lot of CC phases in between. With every patch for the last years we have seen this split being reinforced. Condition is thus a much safer option going forward as your first character into raiding, with lower risk of having to relearn and respect everything in future patches.

> > > >

> > >

> > > This is so wrong on so many levels.....

> > >

> > > https://snowcrows.com/benchmarks/

> >

> > Looking at golem benchmarks alone is disconnecting from reality.

> >

> > > Current benchmarks. Power beats condi in all regards. Please leave your incorrect advice at home. Warrior is literally the only class where condi beats power. Results in raids depend on mechanics, but your flat statement that condi is meant as highest damage over time is plain incorrect.

> >

> > Snowcrows has the list of power suitable bosses for warrior listed right there if you bothered to look: https://snowcrows.com/raids/builds/warrior/warrior/banner/

> >

> > 9 out of 20, which sounds good until you see that one is escort, an second one is statues, and a third one is river. You can throw in spirit run, twisted castle and trio if you like, which make conditions the majority of "raid encounters", but it does make power warrior look any better.

> >

> > In practice condi is used in 6 out of the 17 raid boss encounters. For the remaining 6, lets look at the advice on Deimos from Snowcrows: "The gap between Power Banner Warrior and Condition Banner Berserker grows as your squad DPS increases. Higher squad DPS pushes Power Banner Warrior to outperform Condition Banner Berserker on this fight.".

> >

> > Now think for a second. Why is it that only with higher squad DPS does power banner warrior create higher dps than condition banner? Power is better than condition, right? Could it be that when the fight is shorter that power is better and for longer fights condition is better, as designed by anet?

> >

> > In december 6th 2017, developer Irenio CalmonHuang explained:

> > *Conditions have always been intended as a way to achieve strong sustained damage once it has ramped up.*

> >

> > A lot of have written since then about how a ramping up condition damage make no sense if power can create the same dps without ramping up and with more utility. Thus we have seen a lot of nerf to power in practically every balance patch since that date.

> >

> > > An experienced warrior should be going power for fractals in 90% of all cases.

> >

> > An experienced warrior will be playing with experienced players in 90% of all cases and thus clearing the boss with the speed that makes power out dps condition. The additional CC is nice but far from required in the less than perfect pugging when a new player start doing fractals. I will not assume that a new player instantly enters statics that clear every boss quickly when just starting out. The strong heal on condition warrior is also useful when starting out in fractals, allows for range, and have much better survivability when the group has no healer.

>

> On the other hand, power is significantly better for fractals in almost any group due to breakbar damage, low toughness/hp mobs, scaling with potions and sigils and so on. If just starting out however, most groups will probably be ok with a condi warrior too.

True. toughness and pots do change the dps. I still would recommend that when a new player are just getting into fractals they might want to start out ranging things before going melee. If they can find a static with a healer then the group can carry the new player while learning.

> @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > @"Chris McSwag.4683" said:

> > > @"Belorn.2659" said:

> > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > > > @"Belorn.2659" said:

> > > > > DO NOT GO POWER. I am capitalizing this part since many comments above talk about power as having a lot more use, but they miss the core design that Anet has made in the last few years which is not looking like they are moving away from any time soon.

> > > > >

> > > > > Condition damage is designed to have the highest damage in the game in long encounters. Power is only used as an exception where the boss has short damage phase with a lot of CC phases in between. With every patch for the last years we have seen this split being reinforced. Condition is thus a much safer option going forward as your first character into raiding, with lower risk of having to relearn and respect everything in future patches.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > This is so wrong on so many levels.....

> > > >

> > > > https://snowcrows.com/benchmarks/

> > >

> > > Looking at golem benchmarks alone is disconnecting from reality.

> > >

> > > > Current benchmarks. Power beats condi in all regards. Please leave your incorrect advice at home. Warrior is literally the only class where condi beats power. Results in raids depend on mechanics, but your flat statement that condi is meant as highest damage over time is plain incorrect.

> > >

> > > Snowcrows has the list of power suitable bosses for warrior listed right there if you bothered to look: https://snowcrows.com/raids/builds/warrior/warrior/banner/

> > >

> > > 9 out of 20, which sounds good until you see that one is escort, an second one is statues, and a third one is river. You can throw in spirit run, twisted castle and trio if you like, which make conditions the majority of "raid encounters", but it does make power warrior look any better.

> > >

> > > In practice condi is used in 6 out of the 17 raid boss encounters. For the remaining 6, lets look at the advice on Deimos from Snowcrows: "The gap between Power Banner Warrior and Condition Banner Berserker grows as your squad DPS increases. Higher squad DPS pushes Power Banner Warrior to outperform Condition Banner Berserker on this fight.".

> > >

> > > Now think for a second. Why is it that only with higher squad DPS does power banner warrior create higher dps than condition banner? Power is better than condition, right? Could it be that when the fight is shorter that power is better and for longer fights condition is better, as designed by anet?

> > >

> > > In december 6th 2017, developer Irenio CalmonHuang explained:

> > > *Conditions have always been intended as a way to achieve strong sustained damage once it has ramped up.*

> > >

> > > A lot of have written since then about how a ramping up condition damage make no sense if power can create the same dps without ramping up and with more utility. Thus we have seen a lot of nerf to power in practically every balance patch since that date.

> > >

> > > > An experienced warrior should be going power for fractals in 90% of all cases.

> > >

> > > An experienced warrior will be playing with experienced players in 90% of all cases and thus clearing the boss with the speed that makes power out dps condition. The additional CC is nice but far from required in the less than perfect pugging when a new player start doing fractals. I will not assume that a new player instantly enters statics that clear every boss quickly when just starting out. The strong heal on condition warrior is also useful when starting out in fractals, allows for range, and have much better survivability when the group has no healer.

> >

> > Power is recommended on Deimos because of the modifier caused by the signet, meaning that the boss will phase so fast l(in a high dps group) that you barely gain any use out of conditions. You are correct in that condi benefits from longer fights(phases), but optimal raid comps are based on more than that, e.g. specific utility and what the fights look like with a skilled group.

> >

> > **Condi is generally a better option for raids as it is meta on more encounters but will generally be accepted on bosses where power is better as well. The same can not be said about power.**

> >

> > On the other hand, power is significantly better for fractals in almost any group due to breakbar damage, low toughness/hp mobs, scaling with potions and sigils and so on. If just starting out however, most groups will probably be ok with a condi warrior too.

>

> Where are you getting this, certainly not snowcrows or gw2raidar.

>

> **Recommended dps per boss according to snowcrows, top dps according to gw2raidar:**

> Boss - SnowCrows - _GW2Raidar_

> VG - Power - _Power_

> Gorseval - Power - _Power_

> Sabetha - Power - _Power_

>

> Sloth - Power - _Power_

> Matthias - Condi - _Condi (with power being 1k-2k behind at 21k dps)_

>

> KC - Power - _Power_

> Xera - Power - _Power_

>

> Cairn - Condi - _Condi_

> MO - Power - _Power (with top dps being near equal, the next after are all power)_

> Samarog - Power - _Power_

> Deimos - Power - _Power_

>

> SH - Condi - _Condi_

> Dhuum - Condi - _Power (did not expect multiple power classes to beat out Renegade, seems the gw2raidar value for Renegade is very low)_

>

> CA - Power - _Power_

> TL - Condi - _Condi_

> Qadim - Power - _Condi (condi renegade is top dps, with the next few spots all power)_

>

> Where are people getting this nonsense that condi damage is superior over longer fights versus power? It's certainly not reflected in the raid meta, nor in the recommended classes for raid boss, nor in the performance breakdown per boss and even less in the benchmarks. This is not 2017, condi damage is used on bosses which favor it heavily, otherwise you go power. The only exceptions here are Renegade and Warrior. Warrior specifically because his condi build outperforms the power build and has better range on it.

I want to remind you to reread the title and first post again.

It is called _Should I get condi or power BS warior first?_

> @"trignich.7523" said:

> Hello,

> I'm fairly new player and decided to play bannerslave warrior for raids and fractals. I've got a full set of ascended armor but can't decide wheather I should choose viper or berserker stats. I know the best option is to get both but getting second set of armor will take a while, so for now I'm stuck with only one.

> I like both playstyles of berserker and spellbreaker, though I'm not a fan of greatsword so power build without it would be appreciated.

> Which is overall better for most situations? Which is easier to get into raids and fractals with as a new player?

This is first and foremost about a _fairly new player warriors_ that want to play _warrior_.

Overall if we want to pull this thread to be generically about DPS in raiding, you are passing over a major detail from both raidar and snowcrows.

VG: 2m 8s

If those are the clear times then go power and have a great time. VG has an enrage timer of 8m. If your group is closer to the enrage timer then the strategy suggested by benchmarks on snowcrows is less relevant, as is the impact from phasing time and the fact that VG clears its condition between each phase. A _new player_ just getting into raiding will more likely have a clear time closer to the enrage timer than the 2 minutes which the top 1% get.

> @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > @"Belorn.2659" said:

> > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > > @"Belorn.2659" said:

> > > > DO NOT GO POWER. I am capitalizing this part since many comments above talk about power as having a lot more use, but they miss the core design that Anet has made in the last few years which is not looking like they are moving away from any time soon.

> > > >

> > > > Condition damage is designed to have the highest damage in the game in long encounters. Power is only used as an exception where the boss has short damage phase with a lot of CC phases in between. With every patch for the last years we have seen this split being reinforced. Condition is thus a much safer option going forward as your first character into raiding, with lower risk of having to relearn and respect everything in future patches.

> > > >

> > >

> > > This is so wrong on so many levels.....

> > >

> > > https://snowcrows.com/benchmarks/

> >

> > Looking at golem benchmarks alone is disconnecting from reality.

> >

>

> Considering some of the top power builds are DH and DD with insanely easy rotations, yes golem benchmarks are disconnected from reality, as in power will perform a lot higher on raid bosses given that most condi builds are more complex.

DH has one of the highest burst DPS. Check gw2raidar leader boards and we see VG taking 2m 8 seconds. We are talking about DPS phases that is counted in seconds,

DD has two niches currently. It has really good burst thanks to a signet that last 5 seconds, and a steal skill that on specific bosses brings good CC. The combination of high burst dps and CC skill is why tempest got nerfed to death.

Combine that and it is easy to see which bosses DH and DD is favoured on and why.

>

> > @"Belorn.2659" said:

> > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > Current benchmarks. Power beats condi in all regards. Please leave your incorrect advice at home. Warrior is literally the only class where condi beats power. Results in raids depend on mechanics, but your flat statement that condi is meant as highest damage over time is plain incorrect.

> >

> > Snowcrows has the list of power suitable bosses for warrior listed right there if you bothered to look: https://snowcrows.com/raids/builds/warrior/warrior/banner/

> >

> > 9 out of 20, which sounds good until you see that one is escort, an second one is statues, and a third one is river. You can throw in spirit run, twisted castle and trio if you like, which make conditions the majority of "raid encounters", but it does make power warrior look any better.

> >

> > In practice condi is used in 6 out of the 17 raid boss encounters. For the remaining 6, lets look at the advice on Deimos from Snowcrows: "The gap between Power Banner Warrior and Condition Banner Berserker grows as your squad DPS increases. Higher squad DPS pushes Power Banner Warrior to outperform Condition Banner Berserker on this fight.".

> >

> > Now think for a second. Why is it that only with higher squad DPS does power banner warrior create higher dps than condition banner? Power is better than condition, right? Could it be that when the fight is shorter that power is better and for longer fights condition is better, as designed by anet?

> >

>

> Or maybe condi builds are meta on those bosses because they provide additional benefits like boon removal or conditions to epi share or there is a lot of movement involved where certain condition classes are heavily benefited.

No. Condition warrior has no boon removal. The build do allow for ranged combat which benefit bosses with a lot of movement.

EPI is not really a relevant aspect. We are basically talking about Desmina where it actually matters. MO isn't really a fight people need to design a composition for, and sloth is a power boss.

> How about we remove Desmina (added benefit of epi clearing the add), Largos and Matthias from the condi beneficial fights? how many are left which prefer condition damage? You know the fights which have heavy movement and are thus not beneficial for power builds and are favoring mirage?

> Dhuum is benefiting condi renegade since they are top dps on big hit boxes AND provide boon removal. There is literally currently almost no raid boss fight which would make condi better than power UNLESS it has mechanics favoring condition damage heavily.

>

If we discount for those 3, condi warrior is then highly favoured in 8 others encounters and commonly used in a couple of others. It is easier to count which bosses favour power warror. Sloth (short dps phases and condi depleting phases), samarog (short dps phases and both cc phases and condi cleansing phases), CA (hands that have extremely short dps phases and condi do not transfer), and Qadim which can simplified be described as having relative short dps phase with condi cleansing between. See the commonality between them?

For warriors we can easily see the design of high dps condition damage but with the drawback of ramping up. For DPS classes this is a bit different, but still applicable to a degree. The rework of DE made it initially extremely powerful, but isn't used that much now days for several reasons. Sword weaver and power chrono is considered one of the hardest and most finicky builds to play, but do see some use. They are not builds I would recommend to a new player unless I wanted them to leave the game. For a new player that want to play DPS (which this thread is not about), my general recommendation is mirage, DH, and DD. Mirage for condi bosses, DH for a handful of bosses, and DD for everything else.

> @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > @"Belorn.2659" said:

> > DO NOT GO POWER. I am capitalizing this part since many comments above talk about power as having a lot more use, but they miss the core design that Anet has made in the last few years which is not looking like they are moving away from any time soon.

> >

> > Condition damage is designed to have the highest damage in the game in long encounters. Power is only used as an exception where the boss has short damage phase with a lot of CC phases in between. With every patch for the last years we have seen this split being reinforced. Condition is thus a much safer option going forward as your first character into raiding, with lower risk of having to relearn and respect everything in future patches.

> >

>

> This is so wrong on so many levels.....

>

> https://snowcrows.com/benchmarks/

Looking at golem benchmarks alone is disconnecting from reality.

> Current benchmarks. Power beats condi in all regards. Please leave your incorrect advice at home. Warrior is literally the only class where condi beats power. Results in raids depend on mechanics, but your flat statement that condi is meant as highest damage over time is plain incorrect.

Snowcrows has the list of power suitable bosses for warrior listed right there if you bothered to look: https://snowcrows.com/raids/builds/warrior/warrior/banner/

9 out of 20, which sounds good until you see that one is escort, an second one is statues, and a third one is river. You can throw in spirit run, twisted castle and trio if you like, which make conditions the majority of "raid encounters", but it does make power warrior look any better.

In practice condi is used in 6 out of the 17 raid boss encounters. For the remaining 6, lets look at the advice on Deimos from Snowcrows: "The gap between Power Banner Warrior and Condition Banner Berserker grows as your squad DPS increases. Higher squad DPS pushes Power Banner Warrior to outperform Condition Banner Berserker on this fight.".

Now think for a second. Why is it that only with higher squad DPS does power banner warrior create higher dps than condition banner? Power is better than condition, right? Could it be that when the fight is shorter that power is better and for longer fights condition is better, as designed by anet?

In december 6th 2017, developer Irenio CalmonHuang explained:

*Conditions have always been intended as a way to achieve strong sustained damage once it has ramped up.*

A lot of have written since then about how a ramping up condition damage make no sense if power can create the same dps without ramping up and with more utility. Thus we have seen a lot of nerf to power in practically every balance patch since that date.

> An experienced warrior should be going power for fractals in 90% of all cases.

An experienced warrior will be playing with experienced players in 90% of all cases and thus clearing the boss with the speed that makes power out dps condition. The additional CC is nice but far from required in the less than perfect pugging when a new player start doing fractals. I will not assume that a new player instantly enters statics that clear every boss quickly when just starting out. The strong heal on condition warrior is also useful when starting out in fractals, allows for range, and have much better survivability when the group has no healer.

DO NOT GO POWER. I am capitalizing this part since many comments above talk about power as having a lot more use, but they miss the core design that Anet has made in the last few years which is not looking like they are moving away from any time soon.

Condition damage is designed to have the highest damage in the game in long encounters. Power is only used as an exception where the boss has short damage phase with a lot of CC phases in between. With every patch for the last years we have seen this split being reinforced. Condition is thus a much safer option going forward as your first character into raiding, with lower risk of having to relearn and respect everything in future patches.

In addtion, talking about raid wings we see a clear pattern where condi banner slave is used in wing 1->5 in almost all encounters except for basically sloth and samarog. Wing 1-4 is also the most common wings new players start out in.

For fractals, power is used in static groups since the boss die so fast that it counts as a short damage phase. For normal T4 pug group a condi warrior is fine.

> @"CountMozenrath.7631" said:

> > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > @"CountMozenrath.7631" said:

> > > > @"Jeknar.6184" said:

> > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > > > You getting kicked had nothing to do with being on necromancer but more with not pinging the relevant kill proof and/or LI.

> > > >

> > > > I've seen people kicking necros for the simply sake of being necros tho... Problably not a daily occurancy, but certainly not as uncommon as people make it to be.

> > > >

> > > > 

> > > >

> > >

> > > In a sick way it's comforting I'm not the only one in this situation... Anet really hates Necros don't they ?

> >

> > Not really, it might not be the class I would recommend for someone who starts raids and they might not be top tier for most bosses on dps, but outside of speed runs, necros see play.

> >

> > Getting kicked in the situation Jeknar describes are far and seldom in todays GW2 (also a result of players being able to check performance).

> >

> > Just to be clear, you were not kicked due to being a necro.

>

> So in other words, people in Raids want pure DPS and not someone that keeps em healthy since they can retry from a checkpoint anyway. Maybe i'll make a chronomancer or stay clear of this all together

A note here: there is no checkpoints inside each boss fight. A team composition need to fill all roles that the specific boss encounter has and will often switch around roles between bosses depending on unique encounter requirements. With dhuum, your 10 man squad is usually:

1 kiter.

1 tank.

1 banner warrior.

1 pure boon support.

1 group healer.

The rest is DPS.

Out of those, the boon support, banner warrior and either the kiter or healer will do greens with the other being backup. A Barrier Scourge would need to take up that mechanic.

Dhuum is a mechanic heavy boss that is also extremely unforgiving. A missed bomb will wipe the group. A missed green and the encounter auto-fail. A missed shackle will often kill 2 players, and the last 10% require that most of the group is alive. The boss also teleports to a random player at intervals and drop a field, which if that player happen to be standing too close to a reaper will also cause an encounter fail. To make matters worse, dhuum has the worst pre-event that exist in raiding which means reseting cost a lot of time, and the kiting mechanics make people dizzy after a spending too much time on dhuum.

This is why groups at dhuum tend to be quite unforgiving to new raid players. It is not uncommon to see either very higher kill proofs requirements or instant kick after a single mistake. Even very experienced raiders will get kicked if for reasons they fail mechanics, like if they get hit by high ping. It has the worst combination of being difficulty and having bad game design, and has likely caused more static groups to disband than any other raid encounter.

Going back to the original question about meta, DPS is currently the role that require the most switching of class depending on the boss. Not doing that results in the person being effectively 1/3 to 2/3 of the other DPS players in the squad. Good groups can carry but it not something which should be relied on. A good criteria I use is that the DPS should have damage that is significant higher than the BS.

As a overall rule it is best to view DPS meta as a simple question about the boss. Does the boss has mechanics that create short DPS phase where player can damage the boss? If yes then power should be used over condi since condi take time to ramp up and power can more easily burst damage in short durations. If the boss has no mechanic phases or very long damage phase, then condi damage is significant better.

At minimal I would say a DPS player in raid need one condi and one power class in order to do full wing clears. In practice however I would say a minimum of one mirage since condi rev is not particular great in all cases where mirage is used. For power I would go daredevil, where it currently shine in many fights. Dragonhunter is nice addition to have. Weaver/DPS chrono get a mentioning as a speed run optimization, but I have seen very few of them in normal runs.

For fractals this is mostly a question about the team. Will the boss die fast or slow. A fast kill means power, and a slow kill means condi. A slow kill however might mean that the team is struggling so you then might want to have a more self-sustained build like scourge condi build with healing trait.

The DPS classes I would avoid gearing in current meta, in spite of benchmarks, is soulbeast, all engineer builds, deadeye, and weaver.

Support is a very different beast and involve a lot of question about composition, much which has been explored in above comments. The only thing I will add is that BS has only needed two builds for the last few years, and is in my view the most relaxed role in raiding and fractals.

> @"phs.6089" said:

> > @"Jeknar.6184" said:

> > > @"phs.6089" said:

> > > > @"borgs.6103" said:

> > > > 5 Plaguedoctor Scourge new meta!

> > >

> > > Why? Shaman all the way mix it with some Apostate's for more sustain and see how fractals became a joke :) .

> > > Boon duration is so unimportant on scourge. If only Plaguedoctor had expertise instead of concentration

> >

> > Just go Full Trailblazer... With 5 scourges pumping barrier you don't really need healing power to make them huge.

>

> omg, I forgot about Tralblazer but juts to make an acceptable composition 4 tralblazer +1 ventary scourge, lol.

Would be interesting to hear what the average t4 clear speed would be with that composition. Speed clear vs 200kp cms reset pugs vs average t4 pug with zerkers, druid and chrono vs 5 scourge vs byob random pug.

People have spent around 5 years drilling the mantra that dps is more important than everything else. It made sense when all attacks was basically instant down, or when healers just could overheal for a short fight.

The new instabilities has currently made this strategy quite bad for pug groups. Great healers or support scourge might mitigate this issue a bit but in the end what I tend to see is a lot of deaths from power engi, thieves, or worse people who has not already swapped away from zerker staff weaver.

Personally I have started to look towards the old condi scourge dps with heal traits. It negate the bird and fire instability, and reduces the stress on the healer. It is sloooow, but it works if all you want is to finish a T4. Sadly a lot of pug DPS are not that old that they played fractals back when all-condi-necro was meta, and won't switch to it when they keeping going down during normal T4s.

Thief is the best class within their themed specialty, which is to get quickly to a objective and take it solo without anyone catching them. It is *the* best class for wvw farming!

For everything else, thief is between below average to the worst class for the role. It strength is in being the fastest class with the best escape tricks. Being fast in a zerg is unhelpful, and being able to escape death when everyone else is wiping is neat but not something the commander can use. Simply better to bring a other class if zerg play is what you want to do.

> @"Dante.1763" said:

> > @"ArchonWing.9480" said:

>

> >

> > I decided a long, long time ago, this kind of kitten is not for me, and sometimes I meme about the dps meter to friends when we do fractals or something. Who really cares about it? Why not make some actual friends that don't care about srs bzness, and actually play the game?

>

> Saddly hard to do when it comes to raids. Even my actual friend that i do raid with from time to time gives me kitten for being lower than 10k dps.

If the other players do 20k dps then 10k dps is half a raid player.

If all 10 players only count as half a raid player then you are practically 5 manning 10 man content. That will most time not work for pug runs, so it is understandable that your friend might complain a bit if they don't feel confident in low manning the content.