saerni.2584

> @"anduriell.6280" said:

> > @"Fat Disgrace.4275" said:

> > I roam and defend bl mostly and rarly see any grps bigger than 3 consisting of thieves and rangers, It's always 6 person grp with 3 support and 3 dps, and guess what? None of them are thieves at all but condi revs, holos, warriors and necros

> >

> > It dosnt matter what class you play, that doesn't change who you face.

> >

> > The last time I seen a grp of 5+ thieves was well over a year ago and that was the guild system a.... [sA]

>

> Agreed, when i say "when roaming you meet mostly thieves and rangers" i mean you meet them as solo players or pairs. There are no ranger or thieves guilds as far as i know, the last one in Vabbi died very long time ago.

There's not really a dedicated Thief guild for a specific server and intending to run as a single group in wvw.

Official Thief Forum Guild [Teef] is a cross server thief guild with a number of us on multiple worlds as well as in NA/EU.

It's hard to recruit enough thieves to use up a guild slot and be on the same server. But, I do try to recruit thieves I see often (bias towards my link but I don't usually PM people who are on other servers so...).

Mostly you can tell by your rating loss what their average was and that usually tells you whether you were outmatched from the start.

But composition matters just as much as ranking, so you might be in a blowout because they happened to get a better team for beating your side. Plenty of top rated players aren't mechanically or rotationally worse than their opponents, but end up losing because they couldn't overcome small advantages the other team had with their composition.

It's easy to say "lower rating auto lost" but unless the skill gap is massive I don't think it is as strong as getting a good composition. Better players may be able to swap classes to help their teams composition but in the end they are just one or two players and can't change the composition by that much (especially because you can't see what your teammates are running beyond their profession/elite) and one weapon set.

Context please.

What class are you on? What is the situation (pvp, wvw) and circumstance (what are you doing in that moment)?

Generally, kite and force cool downs. Then burst.

> @"vardeleanu.8972" said:

> I'd rather see scorpion wire work with trickster reduced recharge, as even if the projectile itself is it unreliable, the skill usually hits since no one expects the scorpion wire.

> But I'm just going to say gl hf getting someone from anet to read forums and change the game acording to what people want. There are bugs as old as the game still not fixed.

Anet has implemented multiple suggestions in the past. It's not that they don't listen it's that people make suggestions that 1) ignore Anet's design direction based on their previous patches, 2) don't provide concrete suggestions, 3) provide wildly unrealistic suggestions that require a major work of the entire game, 4) provide suggestions without justifying why they make sense or how they fit into the overall balance.

I highly recommend that people make suggestions. I also highly recommend they take the time to provide more than "I don't think the design is good." That's not helpful and doesn't have a high likelihood of making it into the game.

> @"GewRoo.4172" said:

> > @"saerni.2584" said:

> > Hi all, looking for some feedback from the community about where thief could use some buffs or nerfs. We've been in a fairly stable spot overall recently. SA got nerfed somewhat in sPvP but the trend has been towards Anet treating thief as relatively balanced in the current meta.

> >

> > So, what is underperforming? What is over-performing? What could use a tweak in mechanics? I'll summarize people's thoughts and make some suggestions of my own.

> >

> Thief here.

>

> 1. Shadow Arts needs further attention. Concealing Restoration and Meld with Shadows need a rework. The idea behind these traits is just busted in the context of wvw/spvp. Hidden Thief is fine in my opinion.

> 2. Acrobatics needs a rework. Instant Reflexes and Hard to Catch are (rightfully) disabled or useless at the moment. Problem is, this resulted in the whole specialization just being unplayable. Rework these traits but **do not consider giving me more evades**. Be creative, please. I do not mind if ANet even kills Shadow Arts if I am able to play a viable yet reasonable version of Acrobatics again.

> 3. Daredevil's Physical skills are a very cool theme and the implemention isn't even bad but dmg/utility wise they are far too weak to be a considerable option in spvp and wvw (except Bandit's Defense and Impact Strike).

> 4. The concept of "without offhand" did not even take form in the game. They are just data. Rework and/or buff in every area needed.

> 5. There are some useless and underperforming skills but I do not mind them personally. While Devourer Venom may find its niche, Ice Drake Venom and Caltrops are just memes.

>

> Edit: Spelling

Please feel free to make suggestions on how to replace or upgrade specific skills.

I'm not sure why Meld with Shadows is broken for example, since it's been in the game since the beginning. You need more explanation of the "problem" you are "solving." Concealing Restoration was also nerfed recently. So I guess my question is "how are these overpowered" and "what would you rework SA to be" given that you also want unspecified buffs to Acro (and suggest trading SA for Acro as though it should be sacrificed one for the other. But it's hard to judge if the sacrifice you suggest would be worth it because you didn't provide concrete suggestions for either SA or Acro.

You are right on caltrops not being used. But the question is why and what to buff it with. Are we asking for more bleed or a longer field duration? Should ice venom be longer lasting but remain fewer charges? These are the kinds of concrete suggestions I'd encourage everyone to be making.

> @"Fueki.4753" said:

> Scorpion Wire is fine. It doesn't need a change.

> It has two charges, so just throw a second wire, if the first one is dodged.

>

> Dancing Dagger applies Torment and Cripple and bounces of to three times.

> I don't think it needs to be faster.

> Making it unblockable when it's a combo finisher might be a nice change though.

>

> Rending Shade should just remove three boons instead and not apply Fear.

> There already is too much CC anyway.

> But Stealth Attacks, which have no reasonable counterplay, and related shouldn't be buffed too much.

Both Wire and Dagger are decent skills but fail in certain cases due to distance and the issues that non-homing projectiles have in the game code. I think of these as more quality of life changes than buffs because a ranged skill should be usable at range.

RS could alternatively just be 3 boons and no fear. I'll add that to the OP.

> @"Zape.2094" said:

> Hello!

>

> I just joined the game recently and found love for WvW really quickly. With that being said I mostly enjoy scouting and roaming, and since my revenant (berserker power herald) doesnt seem to be very good at this, I've decided to find an alternative. :)

>

> What I am mostly interested in, is finding a class (and build) that can very easily flip camps alone, perhaps even solo a tower lord, and that can hold its ground in 1v1 fights and small scale skirmishes. I generally prefer tankier classes, since I am a newcomer and it seems like I have more room for error there.

>

> The classes / builds I was considering are next (I'd appreciate any reviews of these builds since Im not 100% sure if they are even what I want):

>

> P/D condi thief

>

> Mesmer (no idea what build yet, I just thought itd be nice to have the portal utility to sneak inside an objective before the enemy caps it)

>

> Longbow ranger (I love the idea of having 1500 range, but Im not sure if theres any viable builds for this that could also flip over camps solo? I seem to get melted way too fest on my berserker revenant to be able to solocap)

>

> Warrior (I know the shoutbreaker build is super popular, but thats only for zergs right? Is there any roaming builds for this?)

>

> Guardian (again, Im not sure if they are good in soloplay or small scale fights, but I really like the shout builds for zergs!).

>

>

>

> If you have any reviews or insight on the above, or even any other recommendations itd be insanely helpful!

>

>

>

NA or Europe? Also, what server?

Add me in game regardless and I can provide some thief specific advice if you'd like.

Hi all, looking for some feedback from the community about where thief could use some buffs or nerfs. We've been in a fairly stable spot overall recently. SA got nerfed somewhat in sPvP but the trend has been towards Anet treating thief as relatively balanced in the current meta.

So, what is underperforming? What is over-performing? What could use a tweak in mechanics? I'll summarize people's thoughts and make some suggestions of my own.

---

***Underperforming/Tweaks/QoL Bug Fixes***

* **Scorpion Wire** The projectile speed makes it unreliable. Increase the speed.

* **Dancing Dagger** The knife doesn't track well in the 600-900 range. Increase projectile speed or give it some target tracking for more reliability (there's enough projectile hate as it is).

* **Rending Shade** The fear feels thematically random and there aren't too many situations where a target won't have boons. Thematically, RS kind of mirrors TotC in Trickery. I'd make this a 2 boon corrupt with a bonus of inflicting weakness on boonless foes. Others suggest 3 boons stolen without the fear. Some, however, like the skill as is. There was also a suggestion to increase the boons stolen by 1 and otherwise keep as is. Last, there was a suggestion to make it fear around the target and not around the thief.

* **Backstab/Malicious Backstab** The damage modifier on MBS tends to make it impossible to justify a boost to BS itself. The difference between WvW and sPvP balancing for these skills means BS can hit very hard (9k in WvW) but in other scenarios will struggle to break 6k. The damage boost from MBS should be reduced and the base damage increased to compensate, in WvW/sPvP.

* **Deadeye's Mark** The pathing has been broken for certain PvE meta events (Octovine for example) where there is an immobile node that needs to be destroyed. Yet the Deadeye Mark can't find path to target. One solution is to make the Mark itself not require LoS and add a pathing check for adding the stolen skill.

* **Signet of Agility** The skill is somewhat overloaded in terms of Crit/Cleanse/Endurance. A lot of people relied on this skill for the extra dodge or cleanse. Nerfing the endurance gain in sPvP makes it less appealing and some players would revert the change given the defensive aspect is what appealed to them the most about the skill. Others view this nerf as reasonable to the extent that thief's survivability is carefully watched, given that active defense is the primary form of damage mitigation for thief.

***Shortbow Feedback***

* **Infiltrators Arrow** The change from 6 to 8 initiative cost in sPvP and WvW makes this the only thief weapon skill that cannot be cast more than once in a row from full initiative (with Trickery) without initiative regeneration. In this sense, the change actively violates the core of thief weapon design which emphasizes being able to use skills more than once in a row. This has led to people either suggesting the nerf be reversed or lessened, with some decrease in utility for Infiltrator's Arrow, or buffs be made to other skills on Shortbow to compensate given how underperforming the weapon set has been.

* Suggestion 1: Remove blind and reduce initiative cost back to 6 or 7. This option is based on the idea that increasing the cost so drastically unintentionally violates core thief gameplay mechanics (and represents more than 50% of total thief weapon skill resources).

* Suggestion 2: Increase bonus damage from Autoattack to poisoned enemies. (This would move SB more into a damage weapon direction). This is based on the idea that if the weapon set can't be a mobility utility weapon it should have the only other kind of utility we'd expect a thief to have—damage.

* Suggestion 3: Make Infiltrator's Arrow have a flip skill with a duration of 2 seconds. Make the first skill cost 6. Make the second skill cost 8 initiative and be called "Infiltrator's Retreat." This is based on the concerns about it being too easy for a thief to run away, but it allows a skilled player who plays around the flip skill to still have similar mobility (while being unable to spam it).

* Suggestion 4: Make IA return initiative if it blinds a target. This is based on the idea that a skill that actually "infiltrates" should be usable as such, and it promotes using SB as an engagement tool in certain contexts where a thief is saving other teleports.

***Acrobatics Traitline Refresh***

* **Minor Traits**

* **Tier 1**

* **Tier 2**

* **Tier 3**

***Other Bugs***

* **Obstructed** There are a lot of obstruction issues for projectiles. See:

A couple of options exist in WvW:

1) Find a tag

2) Be the tag

3) Offensive roaming

4) Defensive roaming

---

For running a tag:

1) Pug group w/o discord

2) Pug group w/ discord

3) Guild group w/ discord

As you might guess, having a voice chat helps a lot. Two big strategies, sustain vs damage. Builds for this tend to be glassy or reliant on organized groups with lots of sustain. Both will rely on staying mobile and dropping lots of aoe on an enemy force and keeping out of their aoes. The sustain vs damage choice is often about numbers. Sustain is safer for larger uncoordinated groups and some small scale coordinated fights vs unorganized players. Smaller groups fighting larger groups tend to lean damage because they can never secure kills against larger groups otherwise (the sustain snowball of more players is pretty hard to overcome with a lot fewer players).

Larger scale tends to be about taking or defending objectives while killing lots of enemy players. It's more dependent on the commander than anything else. The tag may not be an experienced commander or may be well known and have a group that logs in with them on set times/days to play. There won't always be a tag on a map so that's why I put "be the tag" as an option.

For offensive/defensive roaming:

1) Attacking camps

2) Defending camps

3) Escorting yaks

4) Scouting towers/keeps

5) Killing enemy roamers

6) Killing enemy reinforcements

7) Havoc (small scale taking towers or pushing into keeps to distract and divide enemy forces).

Your build should have mobility/sustain and enough damage to secure kills. Even better if you can 1vX, but don't be afraid to stick to other small scale roamers. If you are constantly dying 1v4 you should probably change locations or tactics. It's not a fair game mode at the 40v20 scale or the 5v2 scale. Running with a few other players can cover your weaknesses and let you run support specs in roaming, if you like playing those kinds of builds.

> @"Sleepwalker.1398" said:

> I think Ranger use is sort of declining and there is an increase in thief.

> Come across so many duo of thief/mes or thief/rev and as soon as mes or rev dies, thief just runs away.

Thief usually does well in a duo with something sturdy to help it be able to stay in the fight. It runs because once the ally is down it will be focused and die.

Thief is usually slippery enough that you are better off in XvX focusing targets you can consistently pressure, then aoe the down to secure a kill and avoid a stealth res. Then attack the thief if they are still around.

Alternatively, you can try to hit the thief with cc during the fight to get them to burn a stun break or two. If they stay in the fight you may be able to briefly focus them down first. It's basically just another version of "watch your cool downs and don't spam into evade spam."

> @"Haildam.3712" said:

> > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:

> > Why would u leave thief, have u not been paying attention to all the threads about how OP thief is, ur maining the most powerful,highest damage class that never dies that can simply poof invisible permanently without the use of any resources. Why leave the best duelist, side noder and +1 class in the game?

> > Risk risk such a silly question.

>

> It seems little ironic =)

>

> Anyway, a little update, I'm trying to stay focus with my S/D build (I tried some little variants). Dodging and evading attacks I can see I can survive some more (but I can win almost 10% of 1vs1 duels). Another question, in other mmo there was the chance to duel 1 vs 1 even in a city (starting a "session" of duel between two pg). Here sometimes I'm going in the free pvp arena but it's a mess, it's difficult to have a single 1 vs 1 between two player, is it possible to sparring with someone without other people messing around ?

>

> Thanks again to everyone!

For sPvP you can try to find an empty server or a duel server to fight on.

For WvW you need to be on opposing teams if you are fighting in the normal maps. Or you can fight in Armistice Bastion if you purchase a pass (gemstone content, comes with amenities besides ability to fight other players).

SPvP and wvw balance are different. So if you fight in a guild hall it can be very unbalanced due to PvE skills being used. WvW is PvE stats but closer to PvP skills in terms of relative balance (but even there the sPvP skills may have differences from the WvW versions.

If you want practice, assuming you are on the North American servers, I'm always willing if you add me in game. Just message me when I'm online.

The other day literally 8/10 people in small scale roaming were running necro. I even ran into multiple duo core + scourge/Reaper.

I ran into one thief.

@"Anomaly.7612"

Yeah, thief is worth playing. Just got to find a play style you like and then max min it to death until you can't get stronger.

Or play something else. But a lot of thieves like the freedom that thief offers.

I don't see an excessive number of rangers or thieves.

I see plenty of guardians. A good number of revs. Good number of roaming ele. Oh, necro is somewhat popular in roaming although idk why. Ranger is probably as popular as necro, maybe a bit more. It's in the top 5 but it doesn't stand out. Thief is actually pretty rare. I'll run into a few of them but it's actually 95% other professions even in roaming. It's actually made me sad because I feel like I need extra practice versus thieves because of how rare it is to fight them.

It's anecdotal. But it reflects my experience roaming across multiple matchups and tiers over the last 3-5 months.

Depends on what you mean by viable.

I don't play it. Most thieves I run into aren't playing it. But I've run into good thieves using S/D that are really dangerous and slippery to fight.

Give it a try and then let us know how it goes :)

> @"Famine.7915" said:

> They need to revert the condition change where poison and burning stacked. Put back the 25 stack cap as well and revert the constant ticking on unique action conditions like torment and confusion.

>

> These were all pve changes that overtuned conditions in wvw and is directly responsible for how things are now in reference to conditions.

Completely untrue. Conditions having stack limits, with the way those limits functioned, basically meant that in pvp condition based builds weren't viable because non-condition player's condis overwrote condition player's condis and even two condi players would more than cap out the maximum total. Condi players were often doing negligible damage even without opponents taking cleanse.

Players think this was merely some PvE oriented change but on the contrary it vastly improved build diversity in PvP game modes.

> @"manu.7539" said:

> > @"Strider Pj.2193" said:

> > So... lemme see here...

> >

> > You run low health, light armor class and:

> >

> > - Ranger kills you = game bad

> >

> > - Thief kills you = game bad.

> >

> > Got it..

> >

> > Oh yeah.. and devs bad...

> >

> > Convincing argument.

> >

> >

>

> Ok so lets all play thieves or rangers, is it your argument? I'm a main ele since gw1 and well, I'll stick on it even if eles are not so popular in wvw. I hoped that weaver was to bring some fun to eles and it did but ANET nerfed it alot in the past 2 years. So yeah, I'm raging to see some class ruling wvw with easy skills as I play piano and destroy my keyboard to survive or to do some little damage!

I fought an ele just yesterday who knew how to play to survive while running glass. He was oneshot killing people left and right.

So idk why somehow you think you are at a disadvantage here. There are good SBs and good thieves but most are average and can be killed if you bring the damage.

One thing that screws over Mesmer versus a thief with offhand dagger is the bouncing Dancing Dagger off clones. That and some well timed hits from Sneak Attack and Repeater are not a small amount of damage. But by that point the thief has really committed to trying to kill you and some active defense (evades or blocks) is completely warranted.

I do think that mirage can win. It’s a harder matchup than before due to having only one dodge. Some random ideas:

1. Use some projectile hate (reflects are great).

2. Kite out their Shadowstep

3. Pressure once Shadowstep goes on cool down.

4. Having a de-target is really nice to avoid a lot of damage.

5. Stay mobile.

6. Save your stealth for when they lose theirs.

> @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

> > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > @"ilMasa.2546" said:

>

> > > The same goes for thieves and stealth. It wasnt mobility alone that led to

> > > - solo Slothasor kill

> > > - perma stealth condi trapper

> > >

> >

> > Why are you bringing up PvE here? Also, the latter doesnt exist, and Im pretty sure never existed because of how bad traps were.

>

> You lost your credibility here. It was grossly overpowered for nearly a year, even in WvW. You apparently don't know the history of this class.

>

> I will not disagree the real problem here is OOC stealth and max stealth duration, however - but that's a sentiment I've literally been expressing **since 2013**. People who insist otherwise are either bad thieves who need to get carried by the mechanic or are inexperienced players who do not understand the game, the thief, or their own classes, and lack knowledge of say, D/D thief, to understand 3s stealth isn't a problem.

>

> Remove stacking stealth across all classes, and only allow stealth when in combat. Rework SA. Rework DE. Remove trapper runes. Rework Sneak Gyro. Rework PU. Rework Smokescale. This endemic-huge-issue problem becomes solved.

>

>

>

>

Not to jump to @"UNOwen.7132"’s defense, because he’s often wrong...but here’s the actual history.

Condi trapper thief was hilariously bad. Condi trapper 1) had an unfair advantage when stacking multiples of itself and 2) was able to kill people with no/low cleanse really easily. In 1v1 situations where there was only one condi trapper I could literally apply one cleanse and walk away. The cool down on their “burst” (not really all that much damage) was so high and they spent so much time working to maintain stealth that it was basically unable to kill decent players.

But it got nerfed because it was an outlier build that violated the “do damage and be revealed” rule. So it had to go. Not because it was overpowered but just because the design of traps was inherently a problem. And of course traps were eventually not only needed but removed to make way for a new set of skills probably because Anet wanted to move thief away from trap gameplay (which is hard to imagine a thief doing without stealth like it was originally).

Your solutions are pretty drastic and need a lot of work for Anet to implement. The easier nerf is probably to smoke combo finishers directly. Right now the stealth duration per finisher is a bit high and people can chain a lot of finishers so you can easily end up not seeing your opponent for 10-20 seconds at a time. Then we could nerf or buff profession specific stealth skills to achieve the right balance (but not eliminate entire skills that create much more significant balancing concerns).

I made a short video after an especially bad series of obstructed moments and I decided to really ham it up for posterity.

I’ve seen a number of old/new obstructed bugs recently where projectiles either disappear completely into thin air or I get an obstructed message from thin air. It even happens to channeled attacks at a partial rate where 3/5 shots will disappear but the last 2 shots will hit.

I should probably make a projectile bug compilation video. It isn’t just a skill specific issue (those projectiles that will miss easily/often outside a certain range). It’s a combination with poorly coded skills and the invisible wall bugs where projectiles get absorbed or obstructed by the game engine where no actual obstruction exists to block them.

Griffon needs space to dive. Once you use the dive skill you can use the boost for a super speed dive. This then lets you either pull up and gain height back to your starting height or you can use your super speed to zoom across a large area.

Think of Griffon as a super Glider.

> @"JusticeRetroHunter.7684" said:

> > @"Tayga.3192" said:

> Thief was viable, but it was never overpowered, and especially not because of SB5.

>

> and why do you think that is? It's not because short-bow is good...its because all other weapon combinations *suc* and always have been terrible. The only build that was meta for 4ish years is D/P Daredevil. even after heavy nerfs to DP and Shortbow, DP Daredevil is still meta....you really think its meta because it's so good? or that it just might be that everything else the thief has for choices is just dogpile.

Really it’s because the initiative system promotes camping in a weapon set for damage and using the other set for utility.

Shortbow 5 is good mobility. Shortbow can also AoE poison and blast weakness. The bouncing projectiles are also helpful for certain niche situations. It’s a great alternative to a more damage focused set.

Let’s say Anet replaces Shortbow 5. With what? A targeted smoke field? Giving shortbow native stealth access. A teleport to an ally with a longer range? A skill that teleports enemies within the radius in random directions?

Then we’d still have to talk about whether and how to buff the rest of thief sustain to make up for the lost mobility.

> @"Armen.1483" said:

> > @"kash.9213" said:

>

> > It probably wont help any and shouldn't be considered when designing counter play to stealth, but there is a very fast and kind of subtle blur at the beginning of a stealth pop and that is where I try to catch a thief opener or cut off a mesmer portal. I keep my camera pan speed fast and am always scanning around the area which is how you can, spot a stealth plot, and read someone going into stealth and check their tells like stealth whisps from skills and their orientation on the ground can give a way some of their thought. Most of the time from reading the tells, you can feel where they'll come out for an interrupt or pull or be able to orient and react to an opener. I don't mind fighting stealth, there are tells and it's an easier paced fight but something like Binding Shadow or anything that launches or travels similarly from stealth is just dumb and can compound other gimmicks that make stealth play frustrating.

>

> That is exactly what most of us are trying to do. While it is quite difficult to do during a fight which is the most cases of encounters (becasue of the +1s), thieves sometimes engage in a 1vs1 too which they are not supposed to win, but hey it is the meta now. Let's imagine I am capping a node alone, got all my cds and even see that thief stealth not far away from me trying to attack me. Best scenario for me and worst for thief. So my question here: what should my play be ? Okay I can try to guess the dodge, and with heaven's help I dodged his opener and survived. What should I do next ? Thief is gone. I capped the node, but still waiting for another attack at any moment. And all the games are like that. Unless thief failes everything and commits like there is no tomorrow it is quite frustrating to deal with them. Maybe I just suck at it, but as far as I can see, it is not just me, nearly everyone has similar issues. If you could help me with dealing with them, I'd appreciate that.

Thief could always win 1v1s. The issue was that thief mobility meant that thief was better off using that to +1 or decap rather than stay in a 1v1 and possibly be +1ed themselves.

Of course, thief is frustrating when it doesn’t commit fully to a fight and gets away. But, it’s a team point holding game. That thief wasted time attacking you and you got the node. If the thief commits then you can certainly beat them if everything else (build, skill, etc) is equal.

General advice:

1. Stay mobile.

2. Use terrain to block teleports and line of sight.

3. Rotate with your team if you can’t handle the thief. The worst games from a thief perspective happen when your team insta-dies and you are constantly chased by 2-3 players off every single node. They might not kill you but...you won’t be winning that game.

> @"knite.1542" said:

> Hidden Thief: Reduced base stealth duration from 2 seconds to 0.25 seconds in PvP only.

> Concealing Restoration: Reduced base stealth duration from 1 second to 0.5 seconds in PvP only.

> GG. We have achieved balance.

The pvp forum people seem to think this will significantly improve their issues with thief. I’m still not convinced.

All it did was shave a half second off the heal stealth and cut the total stealth on steal mechanic from 3 seconds to 1.25 seconds. People who said “cut stealth uptime” probably didn’t mean removing a maximum 2.25 seconds of stealth duration every 17 seconds (using withdraw and using Swipe/Mark on cool down). That may be helpful for fighting some thieves...but I think people will still complain that stealth is somehow OP when the thief just stacks stealth using combo fields and does what they normally did pre-patch.

Also this only applies to spvp. WvW keeps the higher duration numbers (because for whatever reason the pvp people don’t like sharing their changes with whoever approves wvw skill changes).

Guess we will see in 2-3 months.