NorthernRedStar.3054

> @"saerni.2584" said: > > @"Kachros.4751" said: > > > @"Fat Disgrace.4275" said: > > > 2 Initiative more for sb#5 has ruined the class D: ?? I think people are over reacting here. > > > > its not ruined it, people just are mad that they cant abuse the mobility of thief as hard now... escaping iwth triple shortbow 5 to 2.7k range away was a bit dumb so thankfully its only 1.8k now :) > > I think people are missing something in your calculations. > > Before, you could use (full initiative w/ Trickery) IA x2, then wait a moment for regen to let you use it a third time. > > Now, you use IA once, for 900 range. Then you need to wait for several seconds to use it again. Then you can use it a second time for 1800 total distance. > > But, because the "wait for more initiative" comes at 900 range and not 1800 range, the thief is a lot more vulnerable than before. > > Plenty of opponents can gap close that 900 distance or use the wait time to burst them from range (900 is not very far range wise and the skill comes with likely technical failures so the 900 is not always the full 900). > > Now, I still think SB could be somewhat useful for mobility due to 1) verticality of teleports, 2) bonus travel distance over time (with no enemies lol), 3) other utility through CG and CB. Those are valuable in their own right. > > But, I do think it's important for people to acknowledge that increasing the skill from 6-8 initiative is a 33% cost increase on a skill that already is more than half of base initiative (which is shared by all weapon skills as a resource). That cost increase is actually significant (because 2 initiative lost is adding an effective 2 second cool down to all skills) and cuts into what kind of defensive kiting potential the weapon had (as well as offensive potential) if the thief uses IA even once. The costs of other skills on the weapon should be adjusted downward (otherwise it becomes a utility weapon that can only do one thing at a time) or the costs of IA should scale (by flip skill or some other design). > > As a few people have noted, the gameplay this pushes thief towards may not be appreciated by the community. People fail to realize this, coupled with SoA. isn't a mere travel distance / time nerf. It's also a massive repositioning/in-fight flexibility nerf. You'll have a much harder time outmaneuvering classes with similar blinks: mesmers, revenants and even guardians. On a fundamental level, this is similar to soulbeast no-swap nerf: it limits the plays and skill cap of the class.

> @"Kachros.4751" said: > > @"Fat Disgrace.4275" said: > > 2 Initiative more for sb#5 has ruined the class D: ?? I think people are over reacting here. > > its not ruined it, people just are mad that they cant abuse the mobility of thief as hard now... escaping iwth triple shortbow 5 to 2.7k range away was a bit dumb so thankfully its only 1.8k now :) *Insert nerf dated XX/YY* --> "People are just mad they can't abuse mechanic / skill / trait T right now!" That is such a convincing argument.

> @"Styros.8931" said: > > @"noiwk.2760" said: > > > > > > for people who cry thief does no damage.. sorry.. but this look very strong to me.. when combined with the crazy mobility and stealth . > > showing out of no where doing quick damage disapearring again and bursting again > > > > btw its not me .. i just post a video i saw here recently on forum credit to the one who made it gg! > > funny joke buddy, dagger / pistol is only playable thief build . And imagine talk about class balance when you just watch video of random clown who play random game > @"Styros.8931" said: > > @"noiwk.2760" said: > > > > > > for people who cry thief does no damage.. sorry.. but this look very strong to me.. when combined with the crazy mobility and stealth . > > showing out of no where doing quick damage disapearring again and bursting again > > > > btw its not me .. i just post a video i saw here recently on forum credit to the one who made it gg! > > funny joke buddy, dagger / pistol is only playable thief build . And imagine talk about class balance when you just watch video of random clown who play random game Everyone repeat after me, _"4K BACKSTABS. WOW....!!!"_

> @"Fat Disgrace.4275" said: > Who the hell spams #5 anyway? Still going to use it because porting up onto ledges are life saving moments. > > Sb is a very expensive weapon but still 1 of the best utility weapon out there. Yeah, 'cept now when the guy other guy blinks after you (assuming they have a port / blink), you're dead 9 out of 10 times. No initiative left. They are literally hurting thief's gameplay patterns and identity as a swift move-around unit. Some of those cool maneuvers you could perform before? Too bad, now you can't. Besides that, #5 can obviously be spammed in certain situations. I'd argue ranger's longbow is starting to look better as far as utility goes.

> @"Exitus.3297" said: > When my friend told me about the nerfs, I seriously thought he was trolling. > > Then I looked at them and not only did they nerf Infiltrator's Arrow, gutting its mobility, they did it in the most uncreative way possible. On top of that, instead of giving Thieves something to work with in terms of defense to compensate for said nerf in mobility, they nerfed their defense. These nerfs were completely out of the blue. If I had to guess where they were gunna nerf the Thief next, I would said it would have been Shadow Arts due to how much some of the traits that contribute to perma-stealthing are used as a crutch. > > It isn't even just about these nerfs (or how out of the blue they are). Remember back on the February Patch when they basically annihilated the Acrobatics traitline, giving the only decent traits 300 seconds? Remember back when everyone was saying that they are just going to be "placeholders" until they can find something better to do with them? They're still there, untouched, virtually unusable in any PvP scenario. Meanwhile, in the land of Deadeye, their PvP rotation literally consists of spamming Skirmisher's Shot over and over until they hit 7 Malice with Maleficent 7, get off a stealth attack, and rinse and repeat ad nauseam. It has been this way since February and it has yet to be touched. The sad part is that the only reason Deadeyes do this is because it is the only realistic way they can do significant damage. I could go on > > Then the OP mentioned that there are no Devs that play Thief. I have no idea how true this is, but at this point I don't doubt it. No Dev in their right mind who even plays Thief would even let this slide. > > I thought for awhile about what other alternatives I could take, and to be quite honest. I'm a Thief main, and I primarily play this game for the PvP. I want the game to work. I want Thieves to be in a good spot, but not overpowered. I was willing to give this balance team a chance, but I think I'm just done with this game now. It's obvious based on the balance team's trend that ongoing balance issues are going to get ignored, while pumping out changes that don't make any sense. > > (P.S, to the OP, Most of the people I know who swapped out of Thief went to Power Rev or Holosmith, mostly the former) > > For what it's worth; I've never seen an Anet dev play thief. N-E-V-E-R. I knew about the upcoming Consume Plasma nerf, but I had no idea they'd also be nerfing Sap Essence (one of the few remaining actually hard-hitting thief skills). I'm confused as to why, if Signet of Agility was _such an issue_ , they couldn't just up the cooldown by 5-10 seconds? Then again, considering how limited its use is with its current cooldown as things stand... And people are actually out there talking about it as this 'superb condi cleanse', when it literally only does that while granting an added (now half a ) dodge. It's not like it's a stun break. I really am not much of a fan of deadeye's gameplay pattern. But that's the road Anet's pigeonholing me onto.

> @"Anomaly.7612" said: > > @"felix.2386" said: > > yes, in a hand of a bad player like you, it won't be anything, try to press button next time because thief still the best roamer and is still meta like always. > > Dude all you do is complain about Thief on the forums while using the Thief icon. What Thief hurt you? Jfc. Steal: take all the opposing player's dignity and toss it right into the wind.

There are pugs that do it once a week, usually. Weekend's your best bet if you don't want to solo it.

> @"Vavume.8065" said: > Escape/reset potential needed a nerf, I approve of the change. A lot of people are of the mindset that thief should stick in place and take a punch like a heavy armor class tank. Doesn't really do good for their image, though.

> @"kash.9213" said: > > @"NorthernRedStar.3054" said: > > > @"kash.9213" said: > > > > @"knite.1542" said: > > > > I hate this: > > > > Infiltrator's Arrow: Increased initiative cost from 6 to 8 in PvP and WvW. > > > > > > It would be nice if they could move that blind then to something less expensive. Or they could decrees the cost of other skills to let us do more in between trying to not get exploded in seconds. > > > > I got told thief should 'stick and die, or win'. I feel like these changes are close to being made with that 'idea' in mind. The devs clearly took to heart when people complained about the essence of thief's playstyle: active evasion tools. Because let's be honest; pretty much every defensive skill and trait in thief's arsenal is proactive and not a passive. > > And the sad thing is that will only force someone like me to start playing the way they don't like. No way I'm going broke from Initiative cost and having my resources tampered with while trying to hang around and take a hit, I'd put everything into a nasty stealth bomb them bug out for the most egregious resets Precisely what I'm worried for. This'll end up having the effect opposite of intended. Mark my words, though, more nerfs are coming. At this rate, Infiltrator's Strike and Return are next on the line. Then Withdraw and Roll for Initiative. Assassin's Signet, for sure - that one I'm almost 100% positive on.

Consider our current balance head is an elementalist main, it doesn't particularly surprise me anymore to see thief get the shaft patch after patch.

> @"kash.9213" said: > > @"knite.1542" said: > > I hate this: > > Infiltrator's Arrow: Increased initiative cost from 6 to 8 in PvP and WvW. > > It would be nice if they could move that blind then to something less expensive. Or they could decrees the cost of other skills to let us do more in between trying to not get exploded in seconds. I got told thief should 'stick and die, or win'. I feel like these changes are close to being made with that 'idea' in mind. The devs clearly took to heart when people complained about the essence of thief's playstyle: active evasion tools. Because let's be honest; pretty much every defensive skill and trait in thief's arsenal is proactive and not a passive.

> @"UNOwen.7132" said: > I mean the nerfs, in a vacuum, make sense. Consume Plasma was stupidly busted. Essence Sap, idk, if this is just a bugfix disguised as a nerf (it did more damage than intended), then sure. Infilitrators Arrow is one skill that carries the entire class, it is too good. Signet of agility, eh, its an ok nerf I guess? It wasnt even a mandatory utility, so it feels a bit odd, but I digress. > > My worry is that theyre just planning to make thief worse without compensation. Because that wont work. Either thief moves faster than everyone else and is mandatory, or it doesnt, and is unplayable and worth reporting for. If you want to reduce thieves reliance on being the fastest, they have to have something else to have a reason to be picked. This is at the essence of my worries: being pigeonholed into some sub-par cheese burst build where I always have to run both Trickery and Shadow Arts to remain somewhat relevant.

> @"felix.2386" said: > > @"CutesySylveon.8290" said: > > > @"felix.2386" said: > > > > @"CutesySylveon.8290" said: > > > > > @"felix.2386" said: > > > > > > @"CutesySylveon.8290" said: > > > > > > > @"felix.2386" said: > > > > > > > > @"BeepBoopBop.5403" said: > > > > > > > > 0/10 horrible kitten change. How is a skill balanced for 8 years then suddenly it's too good? HOW? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > you mean being meta for 8 years? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"CutesySylveon.8290" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Halikus.1406" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"CutesySylveon.8290" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Halikus.1406" said: > > > > > > > > > > > Thief mobility was never balanced to begin with. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That IS a big nerf, don't get me wrong, but thief is still the most mobile class out there and mobility in this game needs to be brought down. I can absolutely understand them not being happy, but this is long overdue lol > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Okay but there was nothing given in compensation. Shortbow is now by far the most expensive weapon and it's a utility weapon. You can't make the most important tool on the class so expensive and just leave them with nothing in return. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What? You want compensation? lol > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > SB already offers a buttload of utility in every skill to the point of being a pretty much mandatory weapon to have and you want compensation? Be glad that was all they did to it lol > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It was mandatory because of IA, and Anet refused to stop bloating Choking Gas and jacking up the initiative cost when nobody asked for it. You can remove every skill on the weapon except IA and it will still be mandatory, so cut the bloating and costs of the other skills if it's gonna take over half the ini bar to use one skill. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is just Anet being lazy with balance just like they do with rev. Instead of cutting down the utility they just bloat them and jack up the costs and call it a day. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > another clueless post, if there's only IA remain, rifle would be meta. > > > > > > > literally IA is not the only thing that is strong, i can duel mesmers with shortbow only, first stealthed attack give 2 second immob, which is super strong, which you can follow up with CB which hit a lot and is also aoe that clears clones and there's also evade that you can occasionally use when being immobed > > > > > > > and choking gas is op in team fight. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > SB is literally enabling thief to teamfight and lock enemy down with stealth SB attack, of course noob like you wouldn't know > > > > > > > > > > > > You're the clueless one if you think Rifle is going to be meta anytime soon, or DE in general lol Enough said. > > > > > > > > > > you are clueless if you think SB is only used for IA, and i never said rifle is going to be meta, because i know SB exist. > > > > > i said rifle is going to be meta, if SB only has IA left, which is impossible. > > > > > you are some how mentally challenged because you can't read. > > > > > > > > I didn't say it was used ONLY *for IA*, dummy. Take your own advice and read. > > > > > > You said it is mandatory *for IA*, some how you don't understand what you said yourself. > > > > Mandatory for IA doesn't mean you only use IA, dummy. I just got done saying they bloated the fool out of skills like Choking Gas and jacked up the cost instead of toning down the functions and now the whole weapon is too bloated and expensive, but you could still take that away and leave nothing but IA and it would still be used. That's obviously not how it is now, and you use other skills because they're strong too, but IA is still the identity of the weapon. > > it literally is not mandatory for IA. the whole SB kit is good. what can't you understand. and how they toning down the functions, choking gas function literally got buffed by miles. Wouldn't call it a straight-out buff. Choking Gas got fundamentally changed - one way, it was a nerf, other a buff. I wouldn't call SB kit 'good', but it's the best ranged option thief has.

> @"Dadnir.5038" said: > > @"NorthernRedStar.3054" said: > > > @"Dadnir.5038" said: > > > Well it feel more like they are addressing different arguable concerns. I mean, people wanted plasma nerfed since 2013 already. And some players were arguing that shortbow was mandatory and, well, it seem that it's no longer mandatory after this "patch"... > > > > > > I wouldn't say that _essence sap_ and _signet of agility_ are "bad" nerfs. > > > > Considering how slow the projectile speed and cast time for Sap are, the nerf seems slightly overreactive. Consume Plasma I can understand, but Signet of Agility AND IA together seem too much w/o compensation. > > You're looking at it the wrong way. You see it all together when ANet probably looked at all 4 skill alone. > - Sap, even after the nerf might deal more damage than the revenant's version. > - Signet of agility will still have one of the most powerful signet active in game (The cleansing of 3 conditions on 5 target is already quite good as a signet active, the endurance might have felt to big of an advantage. Without forgeting that the passive is also attractive by itself.) > - IA is the main if not only reason thief take shortbow as a mandatory weapon (I don't think increasing the cost was the best idea, but it might force thiefs to look into other weaponset, which isn't a "bad" thing.) > - As for plasma, it was overdue (well again i'm not sure that was the way they should have adressed it, as a bundle, even after the nerf it's still imbalanced compared to most other bundles) Looking at each of these skills in a vacuum is not the way to go. How often do you _realistically_ cleanse conditions from all 5, let alone 3-4, allies? How often does Sap _actually_ reach its target with all the blocks, reflects and evade frames _revenant alone_ has access to? Mind that people get reminded thief only has Steal and its associated skill(s) as a class mechanic. To compensate, it obviously has to be more powerful than i.e. Guardian F1-F3 as standalones. There might've been a time and place for these changes, but not all at once.

> @"Dadnir.5038" said: > Well it feel more like they are addressing different arguable concerns. I mean, people wanted plasma nerfed since 2013 already. And some players were arguing that shortbow was mandatory and, well, it seem that it's no longer mandatory after this "patch"... > > I wouldn't say that _essence sap_ and _signet of agility_ are "bad" nerfs. Considering how slow the projectile speed and cast time for Sap are, the nerf seems slightly overreactive. Consume Plasma I can understand, but Signet of Agility AND IA together seem too much w/o compensation.

Are you happy with the recent changes? /s

It was almost mandatory before. Although I'm fairly certain thief as a class in general will be struggling after these changes. That is some harsh, harsh nerfing. Wouldn't surprise me if Shadow Arts became mandatory on top of Trickery. Patch TL;DR: Thief is not allowed to 1) be able to duel _any_ classes; 2) thief is not allowed to be able to avoid other classes' damage or retain mobility despite their harshly nerfed damage.

I've been proposing for changes to, or even removal of, trapper rune for a while now. It's a component that breaks some of the fundamentals of the game in a very painstakingly annoying way. Something does not have to be flat-out overpowered in order to get changed. Uninteractivity and superb annoyance are enough. Mind you, this is not a Guardian -related issue. It's a gameplay -related issue. Dragonhunter in a vacuum is largely fine, from a balance perspective; rather, the spec needs a complete overhaul if anything.

It's not just Trapper Rune. The pre-determined nerf pattern to all medium-to-high dps builds means stealth-sustain and condi over time are going to rule eventually. We wouldn't be having these dumb builds be viable if not for the current balance priority: everyone at near equal footing regardless of skill. Why do you think Trapper Rune hasn't been changed yet, for example? Why did thief stealth changes take so long to get implemented? Because they keep newbies afloat and coming back. Extremely low effort / medium-to-high reward has been the new standard for gameplay since February.