(PvP)Soldier's Focus feels underwhelming compared to explosive entrance

[Lighter.5631]

First, Soldier's focus then comes Explosive Entrance, by now it is clear that these are Anet's new balance direction.

But again, as the first of it's kind, Soldier's focus feels very underwhelming and severely lacks synergy within it's trait line.

 

Let's see what makes Explosive Entrance so much better design wise.

1. It being an Explosion alone synergy it's effect with all grand master traits and even other master trait that's not directly related.

2. It can be farther enhanced by taking more dodge related sigil/trait/skills (no ICD, to be honest i think there should be an ICD for balancing issues, but i prefer how it works compared to Soldier's Focus, which has way too long ICD with no way to enhance it's uptime, maybe a balance between the two)

3. good control over it's effect, basically you know when it will proc because it has to be refreshed actively, so you can choose when you want the effect and when you don't, making you truly feels like you specialized in something and actually able to use it when needed.

4. Explosive Entrance is a stand alone mechanic or in another word, it is not related to something else, for example, "class mechanics", basically making it free from certain traits

4.All above enable people to centralize builds around Explosive Entrance.

 

 

What's making Soldier's focus feels underwhelming to play design wise. i will try to explain step by step, so you can see the big picture.

1. IMPORTANT, it is not a stand alone mechanics, it is once again, a burst skill related trait, warrior already rely too much on burst skill and it needs to constantly using burst skill to be able to compete. Martial Cadence can be cool if warrior is not so relied on constantly using bursts and actually able to time it, because often enough you see yourself procing Martial Cadence with 3 of your skills already off cooldown, general weapon low cooldown definitely worsen the experience.

- and of course that it is also gated behind Adrenaline as well, making class mechanic energy gain trait just as mandatory as before.

2. Unable to centralize build around said mechanics, it is not considered as any utility nor able to be enhance through anything with it's fixed 15 second ICD.

3. It feels very unspecialized, you can argue that tactic line's grand master traits are related to soldier's focus, because it is simply a might buff, they are simply related to might/power which warrior gets plenty from multiple trait lines. In my opinion, soldier's focus shouldn't be burst skill related and tactic line traits should be less might related and more soldier's focus related.

 

Here are some suggestions

-I would make Soldier's Focus a shout skill. increase it's versatility in build making. without reducing the cooldown of course, i think the cooldown should be fixed.

- 600 radius should be base, it is a support line after all, 300 radius is almost a self buff, nobody is stacking this close unless u are wvw zerg or mob stucking, why is 600 radius only belong to a damage buffing trait.

- maybe Martial Cadence can be proc per weapon so it's less random.

- Soldier's Focus give 1 stack of stab upon activation, we all know warrior lacks stab now, that's essential for support role, to pull off banner rez and such, all supports with rez potential has ways to cover for rez abilities

- soldier's focus activates when activating a burst skill/consuming adrenaline instead of hitting, any support ability that requires u to stick to your enemy instead of your ally is no good, especially when your base effective range is 300 radius.

-or maybe something like soldier's focus activates when you use a utility skill (just trying to make it not burst related)

 

 

i feel like linking soldier's focus to landing burst skill is a wasted potential instead of bringing something warrior truly lacks in terms of support.

 

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

If they insist on tying it to bursts then remove the ICD entirely. If they make it a shout, then reduce the ICD to 5-10s, 10 targets, 600 radius.

 

If it is by burst with no ICD, then you have a great deal of flexibility on when it procs and are only limited by Adrenaline. Hanging out in the back with a range weapon will put you in the position to support allies, but a pistol/horn would be best, which is part of why I want pistols on an espec.

 

Imho keep it on burst, with no ICD and make it count as a burst itself for traits or have tiered effects based on the amount of Adrenaline spent.

[Lighter.5631]

> @"Lan Deathrider.5910" said:

> If they insist on tying it to bursts then remove the ICD entirely. If they make it a shout, then reduce the ICD to 5-10s, 10 targets, 600 radius.

>

> If it is by burst with no ICD, then you have a great deal of flexibility on when it procs and are only limited by Adrenaline. Hanging out in the back with a range weapon will put you in the position to support allies, but a pistol/horn would be best, which is part of why I want pistols on an espec.

>

> Imho keep it on burst, with no ICD and make it count as a burst itself for traits or have tiered effects based on the amount of Adrenaline spent.

 

problem with simply removing ICD is that spellbreaker can spam 3 bursts skill back to back with no downside, spellbreaker is already way better then the rest of the specs.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

> @"Lighter.5631" said:

> > @"Lan Deathrider.5910" said:

> > If they insist on tying it to bursts then remove the ICD entirely. If they make it a shout, then reduce the ICD to 5-10s, 10 targets, 600 radius.

> >

> > If it is by burst with no ICD, then you have a great deal of flexibility on when it procs and are only limited by Adrenaline. Hanging out in the back with a range weapon will put you in the position to support allies, but a pistol/horn would be best, which is part of why I want pistols on an espec.

> >

> > Imho keep it on burst, with no ICD and make it count as a burst itself for traits or have tiered effects based on the amount of Adrenaline spent.

>

> problem with simply removing ICD is that spellbreaker can spam 3 bursts skill back to back with no downside, spellbreaker is already way better then the rest of the specs.

 

I had a long response written out with lots of math, and then the browser closed on me....

 

**Note: using WvW numbers here since they are higher and to prove a point. See statement on PvP at the bottom**

 

A dedicated healing setup, Clerics and Monk Runes and applicable sigils, even with 3 back to back bursts, would have a HOT of ~1,200 hps. It would heal for ~13k over 2-3s of using F1->FC->F1 taking into account casts and aftercasts, but you can only do that every 10.25s. There is an extra ~600 hps from spamming FGJ and SIO on recharge. Close to 2k HOT in an AoE is not bad, but this would end up being more of a spike healer, which is fine and needed. It would mostly heal low HP pool allies every 10s. I

 

t sounds OP until you realize that it is an active form of sustain that relies entirely on keeping up a resource in addition to CDs, and requires hitting a target so blinds, blocks, dodges, evades, and focused CC fire will shut it down entirely. This means bad players will think its OP, but good ones will still steam roll it so long as their teammates cooperate.

 

It would be appropriate though for Soldier's Comfort to have tiered effects based on the level of burst used though, with the current number suitable for T2.

 

A Berserker spamming Decapitate would be a better case to look at, With Zealots and Monk Runes, that would be AoE healing for 3,726 every 2ish seconds so long as he can spam Decap. Spamming the shouts results in ~2.4k hps with moderate DPS, so more effective healing than a Spellbreaker, but the Spellbreaker brings boon removal as well, and such a Berserker no longer deals high damage. They could still go full DPS and get about 600 hps though. Again with a form of active sustain that gets shut down entirely by a block, evade, blind, dodge, or focused CC.

 

I used WvW numbers there because they are higher and wanted to prove that even there is would not be OP, in PvP with a Mender's Amulet and Monk runes you'll get about half of those numbers, so at best as a Spellbreaker a HOT of 1k hps with spikes around 7.7k. on a 10.25s CD.

 

Do you see why I think there should be no CD on Soldier's Focus now? A warrior player could keep their allies up against anyone worse than them, but anyone better than them will just shut down the healing.

[pninak.1069]

I am not a really a big pvp player, but I think you are comparing the wrong traits. explosive entrance is dmg on dodge. so warrior's trait version of explosive entrance is reckless dodge.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

> @"pninak.1069" said:

> I am not a really a big pvp player, but I think you are comparing the wrong traits. explosive entrance is dmg on dodge. so warrior's trait version of explosive entrance is reckless dodge.

 

No. There is more to it than that, there are traits associated with EE that augment it for further effect, reckless dodge does not have that.

[pninak.1069]

but you are comparing a dodge trait to a non-dodge trait which is a bit weird. sure both get changed further down the trait lines, but they are on completly different parts of the traitlines overall. you are pretty much comparing engi's power line to your tactical traitline. this obviously doesn't work, because both of them focus on completly different things.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

> @"pninak.1069" said:

> but you are comparing a dodge trait to a non-dodge trait which is a bit weird. sure both get changed further down the trait lines, but they are on completly different parts of the traitlines overall. you are pretty much comparing engi's power line to your tactical traitline. this obviously doesn't work, because both of them focus on completly different things.

 

Strictly speaking EE procs on the first attack made in combat and refreshes when you dodge it is itself not an effect on dodge so your comparison to reckless dodge is even wrong.

 

What he is comparing are the new mechanics that were rolled out recently and how they compare in their usability and access as well as how the weaker of the two is locked behind an obnoxious CD where as the other is not.

[pninak.1069]

but it currently gives a 3 sec recharge reduction every 15 secs. if you make it lower it will become to spammy. and 3 seconds is a lot, because a lot of weapons for warrior have very low cooldowns. so you could use a traited block every 13 seconds this way, 11 seconds if you count in the duration of the block.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

> @"pninak.1069" said:

> but it currently gives a 3 sec recharge reduction every 15 secs. if you make it lower it will become to spammy. and 3 seconds is a lot, because a lot of weapons for warrior have very low cooldowns. so you could use a traited block every 13 seconds this way, 11 seconds if you count in the duration of the block.

 

If you are referring to Martial Cadence it does not affect Burst Skills, Soldier's Focus is truly only once per 15s upon hitting with a burst skill. I also want to point out that all our other traits that have an effect upon hitting with a burst do not have ICDs so SF is really the odd lad out.

 

No ICD on SF would be fine, because there are still CDs on the burst skills themselves, and still require adrenaline, and still require to hit, which is why our other traits on burst hits don't have ICDs. The corner case of Spellbreaker and Axe Berserker I addressed above to show that such a situation would indeed not be OP. A Water Tempest would get twice the HOT as a Tactics Spellbreaker or Tactics Berserker if SF had no ICD.

[pninak.1069]

so you want tactics to replace the healing gained from adrenaline health. at the same time you can go with a build of tactics, spellbreaker and strength use magebanetether and pretty much chain your burst skills. or you use discipline with axe. you still got 3 bursts in a row and with right runes you gonna have 25 stacks while still healing the majority of your group. I think it leaves too much space for bunker builds. and with discipline you got a pretty frquent high dmg burst which shouldn't be easy to get imo.

[Lighter.5631]

> @"pninak.1069" said:

> I am not a really a big pvp player, but I think you are comparing the wrong traits. explosive entrance is dmg on dodge. so warrior's trait version of explosive entrance is reckless dodge.

 

I don't think you understand this thread, it is comparing in a design philosophy kind way, not comparing in functions.

it is about how Explosive Entrance as a line defining trait is way better designed then Soldier's Focus which should also be a line defining trait but feels way less so.

Devs specially said Soldier's focus is the way they want to design trait lines now and explosive entrance is the latest of the results,

both are more close to elite specialization design then old specialization line design, if u couldn't realize this as well.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

> @"pninak.1069" said:

> so you want tactics to replace the healing gained from adrenaline health. at the same time you can go with a build of tactics, spellbreaker and strength use magebanetether and pretty much chain your burst skills. or you use discipline with axe. you still got 3 bursts in a row and with right runes you gonna have 25 stacks while still healing the majority of your group. I think it leaves too much space for bunker builds. and with discipline you got a pretty frquent high dmg burst which shouldn't be easy to get imo.

 

To do it full bunker you would have no dps, and you are still glossing over that to do it requires actually hitting with a burst which has its own CD requires a resource, can be blocked, blinded, evaded, dodged, or denied with CC.

[pninak.1069]

yea sure. but instead they reworked the berserker traitline. I don't really see a reason to buff this traitline at all. and explosive entrance can be dodged too, but I am unsure if the engineer loses the buff.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

It also does not require a resource and the engi can use stealth to ensure they hit with it.

[pninak.1069]

yea I think adrenline isn't really an issue. you get adrenaline way easier than in gw1. do count big boomer to explosive entrance? engi got a lot of ways to do explosions so it doesn't really matter if he hits using EE. as for burst you already got a similiar way of healing via drenaline health. for core engi it is propably way harder to hit with explosions and thus hardly gets any benefit from big boomer. same for core warrior. spellbreaker has propably the highest chance of hitting with the burst, because of the many ways you can avoid stuff like blind.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

> @"pninak.1069" said:

> yea I think adrenline isn't really an issue. you get adrenaline way easier than in gw1. do count big boomer to explosive entrance? engi got a lot of ways to do explosions so it doesn't really matter if he hits using EE. as for burst you already got a similiar way of healing via drenaline health. for core engi it is propably way harder to hit with explosions and thus hardly gets any benefit from big boomer. same for core warrior. spellbreaker has propably the highest chance of hitting with the burst, because of the many ways you can avoid stuff like blind.

 

Adrenaline depends on the build. Loss Aversion depends on if boons are present. Axe Mastery locks you into axes. Merciless Hammer is the best adrenaline gain ever, but you lose MMR.

 

The self healing isn't the question here, it's how the mechanic functions relative to a similar one.

[RabbitUp.8294]

The 15s cooldown feels like it holds that whole line of Tactics back. Especially since both Berserker and SB are designed to have spammy bursts.

 

My suggestion would be to add an additional mechanic so that if you execute a burst while Soldier's Focus is on cooldown, you reduce the cooldown by 3-5 seconds (whatever feels appropriate), so the more you use your bursts, the faster Soldier's Focus comes back up. And of course that number can be tuned independently for PvP/WvW.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

> @"RabbitUp.8294" said:

> The 15s cooldown feels like it holds that whole line of Tactics back. Especially since both Berserker and SB are designed to have spammy bursts.

>

> My suggestion would be to add an additional mechanic so that if you execute a burst while Soldier's Focus is on cooldown, you reduce the cooldown by 3-5 seconds (whatever feels appropriate), so the more you use your bursts, the faster Soldier's Focus comes back up. And of course that number can be tuned independently for PvP/WvW.

 

Or just remove the CD, or just make it a 5s CD. 15s killed whatever they were trying to accomplish with the rework.

[Sobx.1758]

Removing cd would be too much, but 15s feels almost irrelevant imo, so something closer to 5 migth be k.

 

Also there's already a recent thread about it, why do we need a new one every 3 days? :p

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

> @"Sobx.1758" said:

> Removing cd would be too much, but 15s feels almost irrelevant imo, so something closer to 5 migth be k.

>

> Also there's already a recent thread about it, why do we need a new one every 3 days? :p

 

Raising awareness to Anet? A 5s CD minimum is what it needs. I still don't think no ICD would be op, relative to the other shenanigans out there.

[RabbitUp.8294]

> @"Lan Deathrider.5910" said:

> > @"RabbitUp.8294" said:

> > The 15s cooldown feels like it holds that whole line of Tactics back. Especially since both Berserker and SB are designed to have spammy bursts.

> >

> > My suggestion would be to add an additional mechanic so that if you execute a burst while Soldier's Focus is on cooldown, you reduce the cooldown by 3-5 seconds (whatever feels appropriate), so the more you use your bursts, the faster Soldier's Focus comes back up. And of course that number can be tuned independently for PvP/WvW.

>

> Or just remove the CD, or just make it a 5s CD. 15s killed whatever they were trying to accomplish with the rework.

 

No cooldown would be too broken with the other traits, the Adept becomes an AoE 970 heal per burst, which is like a mega Adrenal Health, while the GM reduces weapon cooldowns by 3 seconds per burst, when SB can easily use 3-4 bursts in a row. Heck, Tactics would probably become the best dps line for pve, since Berzerker would just spam Decapitate and reset their Axe skills, all the while doing excellent AoE healing.

 

Now that I'm thinking, even what I said would be too much, I think reducing the base cooldown to 12 and adding a 1 second cd reduction per adrenaline bar spent would be more balanced.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

> @"RabbitUp.8294" said:

> > @"Lan Deathrider.5910" said:

> > > @"RabbitUp.8294" said:

> > > The 15s cooldown feels like it holds that whole line of Tactics back. Especially since both Berserker and SB are designed to have spammy bursts.

> > >

> > > My suggestion would be to add an additional mechanic so that if you execute a burst while Soldier's Focus is on cooldown, you reduce the cooldown by 3-5 seconds (whatever feels appropriate), so the more you use your bursts, the faster Soldier's Focus comes back up. And of course that number can be tuned independently for PvP/WvW.

> >

> > Or just remove the CD, or just make it a 5s CD. 15s killed whatever they were trying to accomplish with the rework.

>

> No cooldown would be too broken with the other traits, the Master becomes an AoE 970 heal per burst, which is like a mega Adrenal Health, while the GM reduces weapon cooldowns by 3 seconds per burst, when SB can easily use 3-4 bursts in a row. Heck, Tactics would probably become the best dps line for pve, since Berzerker would just spam Decapitate and reset their Axe skills, all the while doing excellent AoE healing.

>

> Now that I'm thinking, even what I said would be too much, I think reducing the base cooldown to 12 and adding a 1 second cd reduction per adrenaline bar spent would be more balanced.

 

See the other thread for the breakdown. No ICD would result in a sustained HOT between 2k to 3k, which is lower than other support specs (4k for water tempest for example) and this includes spamming healing shouts.

 

Spamming Decap works wonders in PvE but you still need to rebuild adrenaline and good opponents can shut down this form of sustain with a block, blind, dodge, CC, or simply kiting.

 

Soldiers Comfort and Martial Cadence would be decent in with no ICD, but it still depends on building adrenaline and not getting blocked, blinded, dodged or kited. If they are letting you hit with that many bursts, then the lack of CD would not be what won the fight for you.

[Sobx.1758]

> @"Lan Deathrider.5910" said:

> > @"RabbitUp.8294" said:

> > > @"Lan Deathrider.5910" said:

> > > > @"RabbitUp.8294" said:

> > > > The 15s cooldown feels like it holds that whole line of Tactics back. Especially since both Berserker and SB are designed to have spammy bursts.

> > > >

> > > > My suggestion would be to add an additional mechanic so that if you execute a burst while Soldier's Focus is on cooldown, you reduce the cooldown by 3-5 seconds (whatever feels appropriate), so the more you use your bursts, the faster Soldier's Focus comes back up. And of course that number can be tuned independently for PvP/WvW.

> > >

> > > Or just remove the CD, or just make it a 5s CD. 15s killed whatever they were trying to accomplish with the rework.

> >

> > No cooldown would be too broken with the other traits, the Master becomes an AoE 970 heal per burst, which is like a mega Adrenal Health, while the GM reduces weapon cooldowns by 3 seconds per burst, when SB can easily use 3-4 bursts in a row. Heck, Tactics would probably become the best dps line for pve, since Berzerker would just spam Decapitate and reset their Axe skills, all the while doing excellent AoE healing.

> >

> > Now that I'm thinking, even what I said would be too much, I think reducing the base cooldown to 12 and adding a 1 second cd reduction per adrenaline bar spent would be more balanced.

>

> See the other thread for the breakdown. No ICD would result in a sustained HOT between 2k to 3k, which is lower than other support specs (4k for water tempest for example) and this includes spamming healing shouts.

>

> Spamming Decap works wonders in PvE but you still need to rebuild adrenaline and good opponents can shut down this form of sustain with a block, blind, dodge, CC, or simply kiting.

>

> Soldiers Comfort and Martial Cadence would be decent in with no ICD, but it still depends on building adrenaline and not getting blocked, blinded, dodged or kited. If they are letting you hit with that many bursts, then the lack of CD would not be what won the fight for you.

 

If you're not supposed to be able to hit with that many bursts then what exactly is the point of having no icd? :p

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

So you can use when needed. :tongue: My point is that no CD on it wouldn't be OP, it wont win you a fight you already wouldn't already win, and a fight you would have lost would still be lost. Even fights would break your way more often though.