Inaccessibility of Transcendence vs Accessibility of Conflux

[Adzekul.3104]

If accessibility (with reasonable effort/time investment) is a general design principle for the legendary items in the game, then we have a significant imbalance between the Legendary Amulet Transcendence (from PvP) versus the other legendary trinkets in the game, notably the legendary ring Conflux from WvW.

 

Maybe Conflux is too _accessible_, but I would argue also that Transcendence is too _inaccessible_. Please consider rebalancing the requirements needed to get the respective Emblems:

1) Emblem of Victory, requiring 120 ranked arena wins

2) Emblem of the Conqueror, requiring the capture of 100 objectives in WvW.

 

**Emblem of the Conqueror is quite Accessible**

100 objectives are very easily captured in Edge of the Mists, even for "new to WvW players" (i.e. **accessibility is very good (or perhaps too good)**). In "proper WvW" the time investment is much more realistic and balanced. For example, it took me 4 days of play time (circa 20-25 hours). In EotM I would estimate you need only about 3-6 hours, based upon what reliable people have told me.

 

**Emblem of Victory is rather Inaccessible**

120 ranked arena wins is out of reach of anyone not ranked low-platinum/high-gold because of the total number of games needed to achieve 120 ranked wins.

 

Simply looking at the leaderboards it is very clear that players ranked in the range of 1500-1600 have a long term win rate of slightly better than 50%. So they need to play 240 ish games a season to achieve 120 wins. 240 games in 8 weeks (56 days) is just over 4 games per day, which is very reasonable. But for gold, silver and bronze players this is simply an enormous time requirement based upon the math I present here:

 

Win rate = 50% --> 240 games in 56 days = 4.3 games per day

Win rate = 33% --> 360 games in 56 days = 6.4 games per day

Win rate = 25% --> 480 games in 56 days = 8.6 games per day

Win rate = 20% --> 600 games in 56 days = 10.7 games per day

Win rate = 16.6% --> 720 games in 56 days = 12.9 games per day

 

This excludes random luck (and un-luck) in match success, of course, and is a long term average.

 

I do not know the average win rates for gold, silver and bronze, but I can say from my play experience that finding the time for 5 ranked games per day is about the limit of what is reasonable. And I have a long term average of 6+ hours per day play time over nearly 5 years.

 

And so I hope I have made a convincing case to the devs and the managers, that Transcendence is rather exclusive and inaccessible.

 

Offering variations on the "get good" meme do nothing to change the math. Please consider adjusting the requirements for both Emblem of the Conqueror and Emblem of Victory.

 

Respectfully submitted,

 

Adzekul

 

PS: Please also consider offering a way to spend / salvage Emblems of the Avenger. I have 23 already and I know others who have a lot more.

[Adzekul.3104]

As a proposed solution, I would like to suggest removing the time requirement (a single season). 120 ranked pvp wins then makes this accessible.

[Grave.9258]

PvP achievement is not locked behind **ONE** season. It says "During season" and not, ~~"during one season"~~. It only means you do not receive achievement progress while between seasons. Achiev **DO NOT** resets after the season ends.

[Inculpatus cedo.9234]

Here's some Dev posts: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1193416/#Comment_1193416

[Shadowmoon.7986]

The ascended back piece took 150 season wins to complete back in the day, but it never felt that bad because of the bread trail the 4 tiers of year of ascension left for the player base.

Unfortunately transcendence does not have a bread trail for people to follow, just huge cliff of 120 wins. I think the biggest mistake for anet was not releasing the 120 win achievements at the start of the competitive patch during the much shorter 2v2 mini season. Even if they could not be used to make the legendaries at the time, the 120 win would not feel so daunting. Conquest matches take much longer than 2v2.

My advice, get your 25 wins and 60 participation chievos for season 21, then wait for may 24th when the 2v2 season starts again. That way you only need 95 wins from the much shorter 2v2 matches.

[Adzekul.3104]

> @"Grave.9258" said:

> PvP achievement is not locked behind **ONE** season. It says "During season" and not, ~~"during one season"~~. It only means you do not receive achievement progress while between seasons. Achiev **DO NOT** resets after the season ends.

 

Not looking to argue, and frankly I would be very happy if you are right (and I am wrong), but the wiki and the item in game clearly say "Win 120 ranked matches during a PvP season. " If this is all my misunderstanding and Anet wording things badly, then I can only say these kind of errors create unnecessary problems / misunderstandings like this.

 

> @"Inculpatus cedo.9234" said:

> Here's some Dev posts: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1193416/#Comment_1193416

 

Unfortunately this does not enlighten me. Ben explains that tournament wins are only required for the T2. I am primarily interested in the T1, for whatever that may be worth.

 

> @"Shadowmoon.7986" said:

> The ascended back piece took 150 season wins to complete back in the day, but it never felt that bad because of the bread trail the 4 tiers of year of ascension left for the player base.

> Unfortunately transcendence does not have a bread trail for people to follow, just huge cliff of 120 wins. I think the biggest mistake for anet was not releasing the 120 win achievements at the start of the competitive patch during the much shorter 2v2 mini season. Even if they could not be used to make the legendaries at the time, the 120 win would not feel so daunting. Conquest matches take much longer than 2v2.

> My advice, get your 25 wins and 60 participation chievos for season 21, then wait for may 24th when the 2v2 season starts again. That way you only need 95 wins from the much shorter 2v2 matches.

 

I am liking the back item collection so far (Collection 1 of 4) to be honest. Maybe the higher participation / win rate in later collections is an issue, maybe not. Difficult to say now.

 

Thanks for your advice. If I am wrong on the time limit (a single season) then I will indeed be doing as you suggest. Although it might take me into the next full season to finish it off. We'll see.

[Etria.3642]

I at first thought this too, but dig a little deeper. The wvw trinket requires 4 gifts of battle. Yes, this is little for anyone who regularly engages in wvw, but tournament match wins are also little for anyone who regularly engages in ranked pvp. (My daughter does both, she is only waiting for her clovers to make each).

 

Either requirement will take quite a bit of time for your regular pve'er. I mean. I am shocked that they haven't yet fussed about it requiring 4, when for regular legendaries that require a single one, they do.

 

These each require game play in their respective categories. I can't find myself disagreeing with this.

[Bridget Morrigan.1752]

Regardless of whether one argues that the PvP version should be made less daunting or the WvW version should be made more daunting, you're absolutely 100% right that the two versions are _waaaaaay_ out of alignment **with each other**. It took me two days to get the (T2) WvW version, and if I wanted to have ground it out in one day, I could have. That's just not possible for PvP.

 

The key is: it doesn't matter whether I'm good or bad at either mode (I'm about the same about both)--it matters that one mode should not be significantly more difficult/time consuming than the other _for the same player_.

 

Another way of looking at it would be this: for them to be more aligned, you should need 120 tower+ captures in WvW to correspond to 120 rated (not ranked) PvP match wins (recognizing that making them ranked, season-play PvP wins adds a layer of time-gating that doesn't exist in WvW). 20 tournament wins would be more equal to 20 keep captures.

 

I'm not advocating for an upping of the WvW requirements to be this, simply because I've already completed the thing and it would be unfair of me to say, "Haha, I did it easily, but everyone else should have to work harder." I'm also not terribly motivated to do the PvP trinket just because I don't like the red in it. So I don't really have a horse in the race for how to solve these issues. But I can say it's really unfairly designed for PvP players, and there should have been some in-house discussion of how to make them more equivalent before rolling them out.

 

Therefore my suggestion would be to simply halve the requirements for the PvP version. Yes, that sucks for people who have already completed it, but that's always the case when they change such things (for example, the Skyscale collections).

 

(I haven't made a cost comparison of other required items like Shards of Glory or Memories of Battle or whatever, so that isn't playing into this--this is purely about the time investment involved in the actual playing of and succeeding at the two game modes.)

[FrizzFreston.5290]

> @"Adzekul.3104" said:

> **Emblem of Victory is rather Inaccessible**

> 120 ranked arena wins is out of reach of anyone not ranked low-platinum/high-gold because of the total number of games needed to achieve 120 ranked wins.

>

> Simply looking at the leaderboards it is very clear that players ranked in the range of 1500-1600 have a long term win rate of slightly better than 50%. So they need to play 240 ish games a season to achieve 120 wins. 240 games in 8 weeks (56 days) is just over 4 games per day, which is very reasonable. But for gold, silver and bronze players this is simply an enormous time requirement based upon the math I present here:

>

> Win rate = 50% --> 240 games in 56 days = 4.3 games per day

> Win rate = 33% --> 360 games in 56 days = 6.4 games per day

> Win rate = 25% --> 480 games in 56 days = 8.6 games per day

> Win rate = 20% --> 600 games in 56 days = 10.7 games per day

> Win rate = 16.6% --> 720 games in 56 days = 12.9 games per day

>

> This excludes random luck (and un-luck) in match success, of course, and is a long term average.

>

> I do not know the average win rates for gold, silver and bronze, but I can say from my play experience that finding the time for 5 ranked games per day is about the limit of what is reasonable. And I have a long term average of 6+ hours per day play time over nearly 5 years.

>

Theorethically, if you're not completely new at PvP, your winrate should be about 50% at all times.

As you should usually be matched against people of the same skill level.

 

Also when it says during** a **season, rather than during **one **season, it should be obvious it's not limited to one season.

[Adzekul.3104]

Actually, I _am_ completely new to PvP. I didn't mention it in the original post because I didn't want to trigger the "get good" memes. I find these insulting.

 

My win rate after 6 days is 9 wins in 26 matches, which is 34-ish %. And it is falling like a rock because I can't always get one win per day. I suppose I could rant about the system or the people (and I think there are deep-rooted problems here) but let's be honest, a part of this (a part, not all) is my skill. And I am here in the game mode to improve it. It will take time and I am hoping that my win rate improves as I gain experience. But I am well aware this is not a healthy game mode.

 

Sorry, I am going to have to disagree with your second statement. "During a season" and "during one season" have the same meaning. This is one of many examples of how the language is changing over time (for good and bad reasons).

[Linken.6345]

> @"Adzekul.3104" said:

> Actually, I _am_ completely new to PvP. I didn't mention it in the original post because I didn't want to trigger the "get good" memes. I find these insulting.

>

> My win rate after 6 days is 9 wins in 26 matches, which is 34-ish %. And it is falling like a rock because I can't always get one win per day. I suppose I could rant about the system or the people (and I think there are deep-rooted problems here) but let's be honest, a part of this (a part, not all) is my skill. And I am here in the game mode to improve it. It will take time and I am hoping that my win rate improves as I gain experience. But I am well aware this is not a healthy game mode.

>

> Sorry, I am going to have to disagree with your second statement. "During a season" and "during one season" have the same meaning. This is one of many examples of how the language is changing over time (for good and bad reasons).

 

Since guild wars 2 have many seasons during a season means that a season have to be running

If you put a number on it then it will be limited.

[Bizgurk.5639]

> @"Adzekul.3104" said:

> > @"Grave.9258" said:

> > PvP achievement is not locked behind **ONE** season. It says "During season" and not, ~~"during one season"~~. It only means you do not receive achievement progress while between seasons. Achiev **DO NOT** resets after the season ends.

>

> Not looking to argue, and frankly I would be very happy if you are right (and I am wrong), but the wiki and the item in game clearly say "Win 120 ranked matches during a PvP season. " If this is all my misunderstanding and Anet wording things badly, then I can only say these kind of errors create unnecessary problems / misunderstandings like this.

>

We received the update along with the achievements at the end of the previous season and everyone kept the progress and wins for the 120 ranked win achievement. So you can be sure to take as much time as you need to complete it. Just make sure to do the wins while a season is running. The 2v2 season grants you progress as well, but you won't get progress outside of a season.

 

About your math: Your rating changes as you win or lose games. If you lose over and over again you will sooner or later be that low in rating that you'll be matched with equally bad players. If you reach that point you can expect a 50% win rate. It's just the first few games during a season that are seemingly hard to win because you might get matched with players that are far better than you. You just need to hold out until you are at the rating where you belong.

Furthermore it's only a temporary advantage if you're a decent player and usually end up on plating. Those players will sooner or later get matched with equally good players as well and therefore get closer to a 50% win rate with every game they play.

 

[Evil.1580]

I find it more difficult to farm conflux because of the tickets.

I need 2 rings - this is 3k+ tickets which is how many weeks ?

[Koen.1327]

Its the other way around

Capping objectives takes ages in dead wvw servers

 

120 ranked wins was easy, especially since 2v2 matches from last season count, and those matches were way faster.

[FrizzFreston.5290]

> @"Adzekul.3104" said:

> Actually, I _am_ completely new to PvP. I didn't mention it in the original post because I didn't want to trigger the "get good" memes. I find these insulting.

>

> My win rate after 6 days is 9 wins in 26 matches, which is 34-ish %. And it is falling like a rock because I can't always get one win per day. I suppose I could rant about the system or the people (and I think there are deep-rooted problems here) but let's be honest, a part of this (a part, not all) is my skill. And I am here in the game mode to improve it. It will take time and I am hoping that my win rate improves as I gain experience. But I am well aware this is not a healthy game mode.

Yeah the start is like that if youre not completely familiar with the game or PvP. And I personally feel that in GW2 theres little way to get good enough in GW2 so that you can decide the fate of a match. Alot depends on your teammates, and how well you play together with them.

 

> Sorry, I am going to have to disagree with your second statement. "During a season" and "during one season" have the same meaning. This is one of many examples of how the language is changing over time (for good and bad reasons).

 

Well I suppose you can disagree, but it doesnt change the way it always been meant in GW2, so maybe its just obvious to me.

 

I suppose they can say "during seasons" rather than "during a season", but if that makes it more clear I dunno.

[DanAlcedo.3281]

Make it 240 games played and make any pvp game count. Ranked or not ranked.

 

The goal is to get people into pvp, not into a small part of it.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

> @"bOTEB.1573" said:

> I find it more difficult to farm conflux because of the tickets.

> I need 2 rings - this is 3k+ tickets which is how many weeks ?

 

You get 365 tickets per completed skirmish track, so about 8 weeks. You can lessen that by buying the rings from FotM or guild vendors or the PvP lobby.

[Adzekul.3104]

I appreciate the advice and encouragement directed my way. Thank you. But I am going to rant ... predictable? Yeah.

 

I finished my 10 placement games on Sunday (Apr 5) with a rank of 1069 (silver 2). I was pleased. But now I am in utter freefall with about 1 ranked win every 1 to 3 days (3 games per day minimum). Part of this is my skill/inexperience, but the people I play with ... seem to be so incredibly bad. If I am on my way down to my real rank (bronze something) then I am currently playing people who are better than me, and yet they are ... sorry ... complete trash who cannot fight on point or move appropriately around the map or work as a team.

 

Is the system well and truly broken? Given that it has been this way for nearly 8 years, one would be inclined to think "no, it cannot possibly be broken". But who can explain the blatant dichotomy?

 

[Xenon.4537]

I'm not good at pvp so I'm fully expecting this trinket to take me forever to get... the difference from conflux is insane.

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"Bizgurk.5639" said:

> About your math: Your rating changes as you win or lose games. If you lose over and over again you will sooner or later be that low in rating that you'll be matched with equally bad players. If you reach that point you can expect a 50% win rate.

That's the theory. It might have even worked like this once before, but for this system to work well, it requires a large number of PvP participants at all levels of skill. Unfortunately, it's no longer true - in fact, it was no longer true _even at the time of the **first** season_. The system simply cannot find enough of similar-skill players for a matchup fast enough, and thus starts to look for players from different skill tiers to fill the 10-player quota. Most of the time, you end up in very unbalanced matches.

In fact, in the first 3 seasons, when i was farming the legendary backpack, i didn't get even a _single_ balanced match - and the situation definitely didn't improve since then.

 

 

[Xenon.4537]

My biggest concern with going for this trinket is the community. If it was more friendly I wouldn't mind grinding it out. But people get upset very easily if you make a mistake, and are very quick to point fingers and blame someone for a loss. Not to mention if you lose, you make no progress toward getting the trinket. It puts people on edge.

[Jojo.6140]

I agree that the wvw-trinkets requirements are a lot easier to fulfill than the pvp-trinkets.

But as i see it, those are more for the people dedicated to that gamemode so that they get some new nice rewards. If you are mostly into pve and only would do it to get the legy trinkets, you are probably better off waiting for the remaining 2 pve-trinkets that will also further evolve the effect of the previous 3. Unless ofc you like the effect of the wvw/pvp-trinkets, then you have no other choice.

[Bridget Morrigan.1752]

> @"Jojo.6140" said:

> If you are mostly into pve and only would do it to get the legy trinkets, you are probably better off waiting for the remaining 2 pve-trinkets that will also further evolve the effect of the previous 3. Unless ofc you like the effect of the wvw/pvp-trinkets, then you have no other choice.

 

Has there been official word that there will indeed be two more trinkets to finish evolving the effect of the previous three?

[Evil.1580]

> @"Lan Deathrider.5910" said:

> > @"bOTEB.1573" said:

> > I find it more difficult to farm conflux because of the tickets.

> > I need 2 rings - this is 3k+ tickets which is how many weeks ?

>

> You get 365 tickets per completed skirmish track, so about 8 weeks. You can lessen that by buying the rings from FotM or guild vendors or the PvP lobby.

 

Can you please explain this further?

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

> @"bOTEB.1573" said:

> > @"Lan Deathrider.5910" said:

> > > @"bOTEB.1573" said:

> > > I find it more difficult to farm conflux because of the tickets.

> > > I need 2 rings - this is 3k+ tickets which is how many weeks ?

> >

> > You get 365 tickets per completed skirmish track, so about 8 weeks. You can lessen that by buying the rings from FotM or guild vendors or the PvP lobby.

>

> Can you please explain this further?

 

Completing Diamond tier nets you 365 tickets: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Skirmish_reward_track

 

Mist Band is 350 tickets,

Essence of Annihilation is 350 tickets,

Mist Pearl is 750

Mist-Enhanced Mithril is 750

 

Total tickets for one ring assuming you get the band in WvW is 2200 or 1850 if you buy the band elsewhere. If you do buy the bands elsewhere it takes you 10 weeks and some change to get the tickets for 2 rings (my bad I was off by 2 weeks). This also assumes that you start from scratch. I had some laying around and a Mist Band on another character so that through off my initial mental calculations.

 

I'm holding off on crafting until I get 900 more tickets and just craft both rings in one go.