Sometimes I feel LW chapter bosses aren't designed for solo play

[Fueki.4753]

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > @"Fueki.4753" said:

> > That is an issue that should be dealt by overly strong players taking of their gear or simply holding back, not by artificially inflating things and making it harder for anyone.

>

> You do understand that Season 3 requires Heart of Thorns and Season 4 Path of Fire right? I'm not sure why a fight in either season's content should be considerably easier than any of the fights in the expansions themselves.

>

> > @"Fueki.4753" said:

> > Why should the average players (who are the vast majority of the player base) be forced to get better

>

> Are you saying that the vast majority of players didn't finish the expansion content? This would certainly cause concern but I doubt that's the case.

 

I never implied that the average players didn't finish the story.

But there are several bosses which I wouldn't have beaten (alone) without the function to continue the fight after being defeated.

I doubt I'm the only one.

[Asum.4960]

> @"Raknar.4735" said:

> > @"Dante.1763" said:

> > > @"Asum.4960" said:

> >

> > >

> > > What they meant was likely that overly weak players might be encouraged to step up their game to beat some of these legendary bosses, rather than expecting competent players to consciously sabotage themselves, or maybe at least a compromise of the two.

> >

> >

> > > @"AliamRationem.5172" said:

> > > > @"Fueki.4753" said:

> > > > > @"Asum.4960" said:

> > > > > Personally, my biggest issue with LW bosses is that they melt sheer instantly before I can even see any of the mechanics and appreciate the fight, and I'm not saying that to brag but as genuine complaint with the story content.

> > > > That is an issue that should be dealt by overly strong players taking of their gear or simply holding back, not by artificially inflating things and making it harder for anyone.

> > > >

> > >

> > > That seems a little backward. I think if it's between that and you gittin' gud, it's pretty obvious which is the more reasonable solution.

> >

> >

> > This isnt dark souls.

> >

>

> True. The Dark Souls community actually creates their own challenge modes, like SL1 runs, speedruns, no hit runs etc., instead of trying to make the whole game harder for everyone. They push their skill to the extreme with their own restrictions, not by telling the developer to create harder content.

> Can't say I've seen many attempts at creating community challenge modes in GW2. It has always been "Make the game harder, Anet!".

 

I don't want GW2's story to be Dark Souls or anything like it nor do I expect the average player to become "Top players", I just still have fond memories of numerous GW1 missions 15 years later, because they actually engaged my brain and made me think of how to approach them and made me play the game.

Meanwhile GW2's Story is a mostly forgettable journey of 99% unskippable walking and talking, mostly waiting for RP walking NPC's to catch up, and 1% nuking the talked up mob or boss from orbit by accident.

 

Besides challenge modes not being what I'm looking for, and me just wanting a decent first story playthrough that engages me mechanically on at least any level, there are never any stakes or threat and nothing to custom challenge mode yourself on.

 

It's not like you can speedrun the 90%+ unskippable meaningless exposition about how great the threat is that you are going to delete instantly, and the few combat encounters are instantly melting without trying anyway. No hit runs are essentially the norm, not like it at all matters if anything hit's you.

The only story moments I remember is for how laughable/disappointing they were, like the ambush by the 3 Charrs in the Grothmar Story in the Blood Keep, "Finally combat!" I thought after RP walking around for minutes, the HUD even showed an achievement for managing to kill them in under 30 Seconds!

Well, they evaporated in < 3 seconds by pressing 2 buttons... (on a purposefully tuned down Story Build)

Now I wasn't expecting a grand combat encounter there, but come on.. give me anything. Let me actually play the game beyond pressing F on things and RP walking.

 

I still remember the Eater of Souls in the PoF story because it was so much complained about in the forums, which I thought was just a normal mob in this instance, which got me really excited to fight a bunch of those (and what the boss might be like), only to see the story mission end immediately after, realising it was supposed to be the final boss of the instance.

 

It's just disappointing to think about how engaging and impactful the story could be if it was told with gameplay as well, rather than just hollow exposition about some pushover "big bad".

 

In my opinion there is something really wrong when some players are bored out of their mind just lazily hitting buttons, beating the final boss fight of the second expansion 5 years down the line on their first try, fighting a literal God in the franchise who has been set up as character over 15 years, because it makes the whole (equally easy) journey and "struggle" up to that feel hollow and meaningless.

Besides feeling genuinely robbed of an epic fight as a GW1 player who enjoyed that character since 15 years, just to then delete him like any other trash mob or "boss", just making me feel bad.

 

I don't want story to be teethgrindingly hard, even if it was separated into multiple difficulties, I just wish for there to be any gameplay and struggle to remember whatsoever.

And I genuinely struggle to understand how so many people struggle with a lot of the current story content, when most of it can easily be beaten playing naked without gear or random Traits, or when in some of them you can literally go AFK and the allied Story NPC's beat the encounter on their own and you as player are just there for the show, pretending to matter as commander.

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"castlemanic.3198" said:

> > @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > > @"castlemanic.3198" said:

> > > That has ZERO implications on whether or not players finished expansion content. you're reaching here and I don't know why.

> >

> > The topic of the thread is about living world chapter bosses. I assumed the argument given

> > > Why should the average players (who are the vast majority of the player base) be forced to get better

> > applies to the context of the thread/topic here and not as a completely off topic and derailing remark. Maybe I assumed wrong.

>

> Doesn't really answer my question. Of course the argument given applies to the topic at hand. My question was why did your argument have nothing to do with the argument given?

 

If it's about the topic at hand, then it assumes that the vast majority of the player base are forced to get better to finish the living world chapter bosses. Then my question is rather clear, how did these players that are having trouble with living world bosses and are "forced" to get better, finished the expansion that preceded these seasons. I have no clue why you say my argument has nothing to do with the argument given, when it's a direct continuation of it.

[castlemanic.3198]

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> If it's about the topic at hand, then it assumes that the vast majority of the player base are forced to get better to finish the living world chapter bosses. Then my question is rather clear, how did these players that are having trouble with living world bosses and are "forced" to get better, finished the expansion that preceded these seasons. I have no clue why you say my argument has nothing to do with the argument given, when it's a direct continuation of it.

 

That's not what was said though. you're distorting the meaning of what was said.

 

> Why should the average players (who are the vast majority of the player base) be forced to get better

 

isn't even the full quote, you cut it short.

 

Here is the full quote

 

> @"Fueki.4753" said:

> > @"AliamRationem.5172" said:

> > > @"Fueki.4753" said:

> > > > @"Asum.4960" said:

> > > > Personally, my biggest issue with LW bosses is that they melt sheer instantly before I can even see any of the mechanics and appreciate the fight, and I'm not saying that to brag but as genuine complaint with the story content.

> > > That is an issue that should be dealt by overly strong players taking of their gear or simply holding back, not by artificially inflating things and making it harder for anyone.

> > >

> >

> > That seems a little backward. I think if it's between that and you gittin' gud, it's pretty obvious which is the more reasonable solution.

>

> Why should the average players (who are the vast majority of the player base) be forced to get better, just because a mere handful of top players don't feel challenged enough?

> How is that reasonable in any way?

 

The full quote should make it fully clear that it was IN RESPONSE to someone saying that there should be higher difficulties. Thus your question is irrelevant.

 

edit: from now on i refuse to engage with purposefully bad faith arguments.

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"Fueki.4753" said:

> But there are several bosses which I wouldn't have beaten (alone) without the function to continue the fight after being defeated.

> I doubt I'm the only one.

 

Understandable and I doubt you are the only one. Doesn't really answer my question on whether Season content should be easier than the expansions before it, or even way easier in the case of the most recent Season.

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"castlemanic.3198" said:

> That's not what was said though. you're distorting the meaning of what was said.

 

I'm not distorting anything. The argument was

> > Why should the average players (who are the vast majority of the player base) be forced to get better

 

> The full quote should make it fully clear that it was IN RESPONSE to someone saying that there should be higher difficulties.

 

You are saying that the argument stands only in response to someone saying that there should be higher difficulties? So current difficulties are absolutely fine for the average player and there is no problem. Is the OP wrong to say that some living world bosses are over-tuned or not?

 

> Thus your question is irrelevant.

 

Not if you say so. The question still stands and is very relevant to the topic.

[Raknar.4735]

> @"Asum.4960" said:

> > @"Raknar.4735" said:

> > > @"Dante.1763" said:

> > > > @"Asum.4960" said:

> > >

> > > >

> > > > What they meant was likely that overly weak players might be encouraged to step up their game to beat some of these legendary bosses, rather than expecting competent players to consciously sabotage themselves, or maybe at least a compromise of the two.

> > >

> > >

> > > > @"AliamRationem.5172" said:

> > > > > @"Fueki.4753" said:

> > > > > > @"Asum.4960" said:

> > > > > > Personally, my biggest issue with LW bosses is that they melt sheer instantly before I can even see any of the mechanics and appreciate the fight, and I'm not saying that to brag but as genuine complaint with the story content.

> > > > > That is an issue that should be dealt by overly strong players taking of their gear or simply holding back, not by artificially inflating things and making it harder for anyone.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > That seems a little backward. I think if it's between that and you gittin' gud, it's pretty obvious which is the more reasonable solution.

> > >

> > >

> > > This isnt dark souls.

> > >

> >

> > True. The Dark Souls community actually creates their own challenge modes, like SL1 runs, speedruns, no hit runs etc., instead of trying to make the whole game harder for everyone. They push their skill to the extreme with their own restrictions, not by telling the developer to create harder content.

> > Can't say I've seen many attempts at creating community challenge modes in GW2. It has always been "Make the game harder, Anet!".

>

> I don't want GW2's story to be Dark Souls or anything like it nor do I expect the average player to become "Top players", I just still have fond memories of numerous GW1 missions 15 years later, because they actually engaged my brain and made me think of how to approach them and made me play the game.

> Meanwhile GW2's Story is a mostly forgettable journey of 99% unskippable walking and talking, mostly waiting for RP walking NPC's to catch up, and 1% nuking the talked up mob or boss from orbit by accident.

>

> Besides challenge modes not being what I'm looking for, and me just wanting a decent first story playthrough that engages me mechanically on at least any level, there are never any stakes or threat and nothing to custom challenge mode yourself on.

>

> It's not like you can speedrun the 90%+ unskippable meaningless exposition about how great the threat is that you are going to delete instantly, and the few combat encounters are instantly melting without trying anyway. No hit runs are essentially the norm, not like it at all matters if anything hit's you.

> The only story moments I remember is for how laughable/disappointing they were, like the ambush by the 3 Charrs in the Grothmar Story in the Blood Keep, "Finally combat!" I thought after RP walking around for minutes, the HUD even showed an achievement for managing to kill them in under 30 Seconds!

> Well, they evaporated in < 3 seconds by pressing 2 buttons... (on a purposefully tuned down Story Build)

> Now I wasn't expecting a grand combat encounter there, but come on.. give me anything. Let me actually play the game beyond pressing F on things and RP walking.

>

> I still remember the Eater of Souls in the PoF story because it was so much complained about in the forums, which I thought was just a normal mob in this instance, which got me really excited to fight a bunch of those (and what the boss might be like), only to see the story mission end immediately after, realising it was supposed to be the final boss of the instance.

>

> It's just disappointing to think about how engaging and impactful the story could be if it was told with gameplay as well, rather than just hollow exposition about some pushover "big bad".

>

> In my opinion there is something really wrong when some players are bored out of their mind just lazily hitting buttons, beating the final boss fight of the second expansion 5 years down the line on their first try, fighting a literal God in the franchise who has been set up as character over 15 years, because it makes the whole (equally easy) journey and "struggle" up to that feel hollow and meaningless.

> Besides feeling genuinely robbed of an epic fight as a GW1 player who enjoyed that character since 15 years, just to then delete him like any other trash mob or "boss", just making me feel bad.

>

> I don't want story to be teethgrindingly hard, even if it was separated into multiple difficulties, I just wish for there to be any gameplay and struggle to remember whatsoever.

> And I genuinely struggle to understand how so many people struggle with a lot of the current story content, when most of it can easily be beaten playing naked without gear or random Traits, or when in some of them you can literally go AFK and the allied Story NPC's beat the encounter on their own and you as player are just there for the show, pretending to matter as commander.

 

I don't really remember any hard part about GW1's story. The only really hard things I remember are Shiro, Mallyx + the whole area and Duncan, which was just a gimmick fight and like Mallyx not part of the story. Even Abbadon, the final boss in the trilogy and a fallen god, was a joke in the story that just got deleted.

The only other story boss I actually remember from GW1 is the Hunger and Varesh. So I can't really say I have fond memories of GW1, since it was pretty much forgettable.

 

Same thing for GW2. The Story is just easy if you know how to play.

 

And it's even the same for Dark Souls, or any Souls game. The bosses become trivial once you now how to fight them. That's why players created their own challenge modes, like SL1 runs or no hit runs.

But I wouldn't say I struggle to understand why people are having problems in Dark Souls, even though you can easily beat that game playing it the normal way, without the SL1 shenanigans :p

People are just on different skill levels and understand game mechanics better or worse. I'll just continue and set my own challenges for myself, like I've done in the Souls series, If I want an increased level of challenge. It's still sad to see how basically no one does it here in the GW community. The only time I've seen the GW2 playerbase do something similiar was during a raid tournament by not allowing downed state.

 

> literally go AFK and the allied Story NPC's beat the encounter on their own and you as player are just there for the show, pretending to matter as commander.

 

Well, that's something I actually remember from GW, heroes and henchmen doing all the work :p

I actually do have fond memories of farming "Glint's Challenge" in the Central Transfer Chamber and going afk for ~30minutes, then collectling all the dropped destroyer cores and the Cloth of the Brotherhood.

[Asum.4960]

> @"Raknar.4735" said:

> I don't really remember any hard part about GW1's story. The only really hard things I remember are Shiro, Mallyx + the whole area and Duncan, which was just a gimmick fight and like Mallyx not part of the story. Even Abbadon, the final boss in the trilogy and a fallen god, was a joke in the story that just got deleted.

> The only other story boss I actually remember from GW1 is the Hunger and Varesh. So I can't really say I have fond memories of GW1, since it was pretty much forgettable.

>

> Same thing for GW2. The Story is just easy if you know how to play.

>

> And it's even the same for Dark Souls, or any Souls game. The bosses become trivial once you now how to fight them. That's why players created their own challenge modes, like SL1 runs or no hit runs.

> But I wouldn't say I struggle to understand why people are having problems in Dark Souls, even though you can easily beat that game playing it the normal way, without the SL1 shenanigans :p

> People are just on different skill levels and understand game mechanics better or worse. I'll just continue and set my own challenges for myself, like I've done in the Souls series, If I want an increased level of challenge. It's still sad to see how basically no one does it here in the GW community. The only time I've seen the GW2 playerbase do something similiar was during a raid tournament by not allowing downed state.

>

 

A lot of my memories come from Prophecies in 2005 up to some Factions stuff and I've heard from many people who joined the game later that they found it trivial and forgettable like GW2, so maybe Anet just tends to powercreep their games to hollowness.

Or people just got better at the games, although then that should speak for slowly raising difficulties as the games progress.

People don't grow if they aren't challenged after all. If the majority of the game is forever laughably easy, people will forever struggle with any bit's that aren't, or even are actually difficult.

 

I did a lot more self challenging in GW2 when I was able to freely save fun but silly and inefficient builds in Arc Templates, but now I can't really justify to pay 10€/$ for Loadout slots just to save purposefully gimped builds to play story with, which made the issue even worse.

 

> @"Raknar.4735" said:

> Well, that's something I actually remember from GW, heroes and henchmen doing all the work :p

> I actually do have fond memories of farming "Glint's Challenge" in the Central Transfer Chamber and going afk for ~30minutes, then collectling all the dropped destroyer cores and the Cloth of the Brotherhood.

 

Tbf one was set up as a group game with the NPC's supposed to fully replace 7 other players, while in GW2 the NPC's present are Story Window dressing.

Also if I recall correctly they were added way later with progressively less restrictions which eventually was indeed problematic.

 

Imagine GW2's Story if you had 4 Hero NPC's, walking around fully buffed permanently with 100k Group DPS.

Might as well just give players a special action key without CD which instantly kills any targeted creature, including bosses.

[Raknar.4735]

> @"Asum.4960" said:

> > @"Raknar.4735" said:

> > I don't really remember any hard part about GW1's story. The only really hard things I remember are Shiro, Mallyx + the whole area and Duncan, which was just a gimmick fight and like Mallyx not part of the story. Even Abbadon, the final boss in the trilogy and a fallen god, was a joke in the story that just got deleted.

> > The only other story boss I actually remember from GW1 is the Hunger and Varesh. So I can't really say I have fond memories of GW1, since it was pretty much forgettable.

> >

> > Same thing for GW2. The Story is just easy if you know how to play.

> >

> > And it's even the same for Dark Souls, or any Souls game. The bosses become trivial once you now how to fight them. That's why players created their own challenge modes, like SL1 runs or no hit runs.

> > But I wouldn't say I struggle to understand why people are having problems in Dark Souls, even though you can easily beat that game playing it the normal way, without the SL1 shenanigans :p

> > People are just on different skill levels and understand game mechanics better or worse. I'll just continue and set my own challenges for myself, like I've done in the Souls series, If I want an increased level of challenge. It's still sad to see how basically no one does it here in the GW community. The only time I've seen the GW2 playerbase do something similiar was during a raid tournament by not allowing downed state.

> >

>

> A lot of my memories come from Prophecies in 2005 up to some Factions stuff and I've heard from many people who joined the game later that they found it trivial and forgettable like GW2, so maybe Anet just tends to powercreep their games to hollowness.

> Or people just got better at the games, although then that should speak for slowly raising difficulties as the games progress.

> People don't grow if they aren't challenged after all. If the majority of the game is forever laughably easy, people will forever struggle with any bit's that aren't, or even are actually difficult.

>

> I did a lot more self challenging in GW2 when I was able to freely save fun but silly and inefficient builds in Arc Templates, but now I can't really justify to pay 10€/$ for Loadout slots just to save purposefully kitten builds to play story with, which made the issue even worse.

>

> > @"Raknar.4735" said:

> > Well, that's something I actually remember from GW, heroes and henchmen doing all the work :p

> > I actually do have fond memories of farming "Glint's Challenge" in the Central Transfer Chamber and going afk for ~30minutes, then collectling all the dropped destroyer cores and the Cloth of the Brotherhood.

>

> Tbf one was set up as a group game with the NPC's supposed to fully replace 7 other players, while in GW2 the NPC's present are Story Window dressing.

> Also if I recall correctly they were added way later with progressively less restrictions which eventually was indeed problematic.

 

I've also started with Prophecies, before Factions came out. I can't say I've had any problems or fond memories of it. The story and most missions were pretty much forgettable. I'd say Balthazar was more engaging than Abbadon.

Of course, players got better mechanicly as more households got more PCs. That's why you don't see many people keyboard turning anymore more, like back in WoW. They didn't really grow because of challenge, they grew because they became accostumed to KBM movement in games.

 

I'm happy developers understand that challenge isn't everything and we still get phenomenal games like Animal Crossing etc.

Fun should be the most valuable metric, and while some do enjoy very challenging content, others don't. It's not surprising that my most beloved game series, the Souls series, that is known for its difficulty, is just a niche market in the end.

 

I'll still continue to make my own challenges, like a full group of randomized builds etc.

I don't really mind the templates in GW2, in GW1 they also were just Skilllist+Point distribution you could save in a Textfile. GW2 added equipment slots.

Templates were pretty much wasted ressources IMO. They don't work correctly on every class and I doubt many players actually switch builds regularly. I do, but I believe most don't.

 

Yes, the heroes update came with ~~EOTN~~ Nightfall (My memory really isn‘t the best when it comes to Gw1), making you able to add 3 heroes, then later got inceased to 7. Probably one of my favourite updates, since looking for good heal and prot monks, or good ritualists was always a PITA.

 

Edit:

> Imagine GW2's Story if you had 4 Hero NPC's, walking around fully buffed permanently with 100k Group DPS.

> Might as well just give players a special action key without CD which instantly kills any targeted creature, including bosses.

 

Would make sense if GW2's story was made for 5man groups. But it's designed for solo play.

You can currently do the same if you invite 4 Friends, you don't even have to press a button! (Aside from missions were all party members are transformed into wisps/awakened with own skills)

 

Even Dark Souls had some NPC summons that could solo the bosses (Tarkus and Thomas for example)

[Fueki.4753]

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > @"Fueki.4753" said:

> > But there are several bosses which I wouldn't have beaten (alone) without the function to continue the fight after being defeated.

> > I doubt I'm the only one.

>

> Understandable and I doubt you are the only one. Doesn't really answer my question on whether Season content should be easier than the expansions before it,

 

I don't think it should matter whether expansion content or Season content is be harder. Having bumps and downs in difficulty is normal.

But rather than creeping up the amount and spamming of attacks and inflating the AoE fields(you're the one most at fault here, Scruffy 2.0), or impairing the play vision (looking at you, Fraenir), I'd like the difficulty depend on actual mechanics.

 

Although being some of the easiest bosses, I like the Eater of Souls and Palawa **IGNACIOUS** Joko better than any of the spammy Balthazar fights.

I even consider Mordremoth to be one of my favourite, despite never having beaten him alone.

 

If interesting mechanics make bosses hard, I'd love that.

But constantly dying to power creep and bullet hell-like behaviour, when the player controls aren't made to deal with that properly (and I don't think GW2's dodges are enough to properly deal with Balthazar's semi-permanent barrages) is not something that should be.

 

> or even way easier in the case of the most recent Season.

As long as Arenanet can adhere to the points I made, I would not mind to see Season 5 get a bit harder.

But inflated HP sponges with boring mechanics like Almorra are not something I like to see.

 

> @"Raknar.4735" said:

> Even Dark Souls had some NPC summons that could solo the bosses (Tarkus and Thomas for example)

Don't forget about the wild card of the emoji-face sun, Solaire, who sometimes completely obliterated Ornstein without even taking damage.

[Asum.4960]

> @"Raknar.4735" said:

> I'm happy developers understand that challenge isn't everything and we still get phenomenal games like Animal Crossing etc.

> Fun should be the most valuable metric, and while some do enjoy very challenging content, others don't. It's not surprising that my most beloved game series, the Souls series, that is known for its difficulty, is just a niche market in the end.

 

Absolutely, and as I stated even I don't want or expect the Story content to be hard or challenging. I just wish it was a bit more than RP walking, pressing F and watching bosses melt in <20 seconds with half my gear taken off. Simply because that isn't fun to me.

 

Fighting through the Ring of Fire and beating the Lich, working to ascend in the Crystal Desert or retaking Thunderhead Keep surely wasn't a exceedingly difficult task and it didn't need to be, but it still felt like playing a video game with things fighting back and stuff to overcome and with opportunities to fail, learn and grow, adjusting builds and actually engaging with the game and it's mechanics, at least at the time for me.

[Daishi.6027]

I think it’s best designed around full power burst builds. Where even in that situation the bossss can be a bit of a sponge. That said often bosses with ‘Mechanic Phase, then DPS Phase’ only lasts 3 - 5 cycles depending on the boss and the type of burst.

 

Ramp DPS that is typically meta in raids and such I would suspect feel much slower, and any build not designed fully around doing damage even less so...

 

I don’t think this is bad though, a build excels at what it’s designed to do, but strictly regarding solo ability I think the damage spongey nature is a fair direct proportion for how easy it is to stay alive as a player.

 

Compared to dark souls where one hit can take a huge chunk of health off an enemy boss but in turn you die in like 2 or 3 if you don’t dodge properly. GW2 is more lenient on both ends but still proportional.

[Raknar.4735]

> @"Asum.4960" said:

> > @"Raknar.4735" said:

> > I'm happy developers understand that challenge isn't everything and we still get phenomenal games like Animal Crossing etc.

> > Fun should be the most valuable metric, and while some do enjoy very challenging content, others don't. It's not surprising that my most beloved game series, the Souls series, that is known for its difficulty, is just a niche market in the end.

>

> Absolutely, and as I stated even I don't want or expect the Story content to be hard or challenging. I just wish it was a bit more than RP walking, pressing F and watching bosses melt in <20 seconds with half my gear taken off. Simply because that isn't fun to me.

>

> Fighting through the Ring of Fire and beating the Lich, working to ascend in the Crystal Desert or retaking Thunderhead Keep surely wasn't a exceedingly difficult task and it didn't need to be, but it still felt like playing a video game with things fighting back and stuff to overcome and with opportunities to fail, learn and grow, adjusting builds and actually engaging with the game and it's mechanics, at least at the time for me.

 

I really don't see how someone could melt Balthazar or Mordremoth in <20 seconds with half of the gear off, but maybe I'm just not good enough.

(But I'm used to that, you could kill plenty of bosses in seconds in Dark Souls)

 

Hell's Precipice always felt like a drag to me. Having to wait for the enemies to respawn as smaller titans, just to kill them again and again was just so boring. Not to mention that the lich fight itself was lackluster. If i remember correctly, I rarely had to adjust builds during story to beat it in GW1. I just played what I thought was fun.

I only had to do build theory for non-story stuff like Tomb of the Primeval Kings, where we had 7 Barrage Pet Rangers + 1 MM/Order Necro groups etc.

[Asum.4960]

> @"Raknar.4735" said:

> > @"Asum.4960" said:

> > > @"Raknar.4735" said:

> > > I'm happy developers understand that challenge isn't everything and we still get phenomenal games like Animal Crossing etc.

> > > Fun should be the most valuable metric, and while some do enjoy very challenging content, others don't. It's not surprising that my most beloved game series, the Souls series, that is known for its difficulty, is just a niche market in the end.

> >

> > Absolutely, and as I stated even I don't want or expect the Story content to be hard or challenging. I just wish it was a bit more than RP walking, pressing F and watching bosses melt in <20 seconds with half my gear taken off. Simply because that isn't fun to me.

> >

> > Fighting through the Ring of Fire and beating the Lich, working to ascend in the Crystal Desert or retaking Thunderhead Keep surely wasn't a exceedingly difficult task and it didn't need to be, but it still felt like playing a video game with things fighting back and stuff to overcome and with opportunities to fail, learn and grow, adjusting builds and actually engaging with the game and it's mechanics, at least at the time for me.

>

> I really don't see how someone could melt Balthazar or Mordremoth in <20 seconds with half of the gear off, but maybe I'm just not good enough.

> (But I'm used to that, you could kill plenty of bosses in seconds in Dark Souls)

>

> Hell's Precipice always felt like a drag to me. Having to wait for the enemies to respawn as smaller titans, just to kill them again and again was just so boring. Not to mention that the lich fight itself was lackluster. If i remember correctly, I rarely had to adjust builds during story to beat it in GW1. I just played what I thought was fun.

> I only had to do build theory for non-story stuff like Tomb of the Primeval Kings, where we had 7 Barrage Pet Rangers + 1 MM/Order Necro groups etc.

 

Ofc there are a few exceptions of bosses that take longer bc of invulnerability exposition phases or simply high health, but if that time is spend just walking in a circle or even standing still and beatable by simply autoattacking, it's not like that makes it a whole lot more interesting.

 

One that came close to a proper bossfight that I remember in GW2's story content was Scruffy 2.0, which was a boss which you could neither nuke instantly, nor just stand still/circle and AA. Although still easily done on the first try, the reason I remember that one is because it made me laugh that the little golem companion was more powerful than all the GW2 Gods, Dragons and legends like Liches combined.

Modremoth was another somewhat decent one, mainly because it seemed designed as the 5 man challenge mode content (which tbf is the only version of the fight I actually remember), which is something I really hoped to see for all Story going forward.

 

But more often than not we are getting things like the Icebrood Construct, which might as well just be a DPS golem which you can nuke standing still in 10-20 seconds, or Joko where you just stand around waiting for him to do his thing and become vulnerable again, so you can nuke him back into the next invulnerability phase in 3 seconds, at which point I wonder why bother making a boss.

[Raknar.4735]

> @"Asum.4960" said:

> > @"Raknar.4735" said:

> > > @"Asum.4960" said:

> > > > @"Raknar.4735" said:

> > > > I'm happy developers understand that challenge isn't everything and we still get phenomenal games like Animal Crossing etc.

> > > > Fun should be the most valuable metric, and while some do enjoy very challenging content, others don't. It's not surprising that my most beloved game series, the Souls series, that is known for its difficulty, is just a niche market in the end.

> > >

> > > Absolutely, and as I stated even I don't want or expect the Story content to be hard or challenging. I just wish it was a bit more than RP walking, pressing F and watching bosses melt in <20 seconds with half my gear taken off. Simply because that isn't fun to me.

> > >

> > > Fighting through the Ring of Fire and beating the Lich, working to ascend in the Crystal Desert or retaking Thunderhead Keep surely wasn't a exceedingly difficult task and it didn't need to be, but it still felt like playing a video game with things fighting back and stuff to overcome and with opportunities to fail, learn and grow, adjusting builds and actually engaging with the game and it's mechanics, at least at the time for me.

> >

> > I really don't see how someone could melt Balthazar or Mordremoth in <20 seconds with half of the gear off, but maybe I'm just not good enough.

> > (But I'm used to that, you could kill plenty of bosses in seconds in Dark Souls)

> >

> > Hell's Precipice always felt like a drag to me. Having to wait for the enemies to respawn as smaller titans, just to kill them again and again was just so boring. Not to mention that the lich fight itself was lackluster. If i remember correctly, I rarely had to adjust builds during story to beat it in GW1. I just played what I thought was fun.

> > I only had to do build theory for non-story stuff like Tomb of the Primeval Kings, where we had 7 Barrage Pet Rangers + 1 MM/Order Necro groups etc.

>

> Ofc there are a few exceptions of bosses that take longer bc of invulnerability exposition phases or simply high health, but if that time is spend just walking in a circle or even standing still and beatable by simply autoattacking, it's not like that makes it a whole lot more interesting.

>

> One that came close to a proper bossfight that I remember in GW2's story content was Scruffy 2.0, which was a boss which you could neither nuke instantly, nor just stand still/circle and AA. Although still easily done on the first try, the reason I remember that one is because it made me laugh that the little golem companion was more powerful than all the GW2 Gods, Dragons and legends like Liches combined.

> Modremoth was another somewhat decent one, mainly because it seemed designed as the 5 man challenge mode content (which tbf is the only version of the fight I actually remember), which is something I really hoped to see for all Story going forward.

>

> But more often than not we are getting things like the Icebrood Construct, which might as well just be a DPS golem which you can nuke standing still in 10-20 seconds, or Joko where you just stand around waiting for him to do his thing and become vulnerable again, so you can nuke him back into the next invulnerability phase in 3 seconds, at which point I wonder why bother making a boss.

 

Most bosses in GW1 were just hp sponges repeating the same skills over and over, or bosses that died instantly. Abaddon which was considered a god only had like 3 skills. I'm happy that GW2's bosses are way ahead in terms of phases and varied skill use.

 

To be honest, I don't remember Scruffy to be a good boss. The only thing I remember from that boss fight is that there were a lot of projectiles. Nothing too exciting. Compared to that Balthazar was a spectacle, even though he himself was quite spammy.

 

You'd hate playing PoE endgame. Invuln phases and standing around waiting is basically all you do there nowadays. Not to mention visual clarity problems with red skill effects on red ground. Awakener 8 is a good example, or Shaper/UElder with their invuln phases all the time. But I still think UElder is one of the best designed boss fights in any game, even though you just dps them from Invul phase to Invul phase in seconds (Well, there's still the grey effects on grey ground issue).

 

> @"Fueki.4753" said:

> > @"Raknar.4735" said:

> > Even Dark Souls had some NPC summons that could solo the bosses (Tarkus and Thomas for example)

> Don't forget about the wild card of the emoji-face sun, Solaire, who sometimes completely obliterated Ornstein without even taking damage.

 

Solaire was an odd one. He either was doing great or died instantly. Nowadays it is easier to just 3 shot Ornstein with RTSR.

[ProtoGunner.4953]

The problem is the nature of the game; a developer mentioned that due to the nature of armor choice - extremes would be Nomad gear and Berzerker gear - the damage discrepancy of an average player to a more invested players is not seldom 10 times. Imagine that. Doing 1000 DPS or 10000 on average. This means that your wet noodle fighter needs to fight 10 times longer!

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"Fueki.4753" said:

> But rather than creeping up the amount and spamming of attacks and inflating the AoE fields(you're the one most at fault here, Scruffy 2.0), or impairing the play vision (looking at you, Fraenir), I'd like the difficulty depend on actual mechanics.

 

Same here. The problem I mentioned earlier comes from when we get to the other side, when there are no actual mechanics to begin with.

 

> Although being some of the easiest bosses, I like the Eater of Souls and Palawa **IGNACIOUS** Joko better than any of the spammy Balthazar fights.

> I even consider Mordremoth to be one of my favourite, despite never having beaten him alone.

 

Eater of Souls was considered a very hard encounter and we get posts about it even years after the release. This is probably because it's a boss that you can outsmart or rather "get good" to beat. One you "get good" it's an easy boss for sure.

 

> If interesting mechanics make bosses hard, I'd love that.

 

Same here.

 

> But constantly dying to power creep and bullet hell-like behaviour, when the player controls aren't made to deal with that properly (and I don't think GW2's dodges are enough to properly deal with Balthazar's semi-permanent barrages) is not something that should be.

 

Balthazar's attacks have patterns, you don't need to dodge all of his attacks, he always leaves areas without any damage. Balthazar isn't spamming, Scruffy for sure, but not Balthazar.

 

> As long as Arenanet can adhere to the points I made, I would not mind to see Season 5 get a bit harder.

> But inflated HP sponges with boring mechanics like Almorra are not something I like to see.

 

Agreed. Difficulty through mechanics and not HP sponges. I'm curious why you call Almorra "boring" though, she has mechanics and not a very high health bar. Especially if you use Ryland's weapon

[Fueki.4753]

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> Balthazar's attacks have patterns, you don't need to dodge all of his attacks, he always leaves areas without any damage. Balthazar isn't spamming, Scruffy for sure, but not Balthazar.

As I mentioned before in other threads, I don't have the best reflexes or reactions times and his orange'ish AoE blends somewhat blends in with the ground, so I sometimes don't detect the AoE fast enough.

I probably died to Balthazar on the spire more often than to any other boss in the story.

 

 

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"Fueki.4753" said:

> > @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > Balthazar's attacks have patterns, you don't need to dodge all of his attacks, he always leaves areas without any damage. Balthazar isn't spamming, Scruffy for sure, but not Balthazar.

> As I mentioned before in other threads, I don't have the best reflexes or reactions times and his orange'ish AoE blends somewhat blends in with the ground, so I sometimes don't detect the AoE fast enough.

> I probably died to Balthazar on the spire more often than to any other boss in the story.

>

>

 

This is unfortunately a major issue with many fights in the game, visual bugs. The ground where you fight Balthazar obscures the orange markers, especially when there are fires around. Mordremoth to this day has unresolved bugs/issues. It's unfortunate that they don't spend that extra time to polish their boss encounters, especially the most important ones. I guess the top priority for boss design would be visual clarity and polish, and after that interesting mechanics.

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"Asum.4960" said:

> A lot of my memories come from Prophecies in 2005 up to some Factions stuff and I've heard from many people who joined the game later that they found it trivial and forgettable like GW2, so maybe Anet just tends to powercreep their games to hollowness.

> Or people just got better at the games, although then that should speak for slowly raising difficulties as the games progress.

It's the heroes. The difference between going with heroes, and having to do somehow with henchmen is massive. A lot of missions in Prophecies/Factions were of such difficulty level, that an average player just couldn't really solo them originally - they _had_ to pug them (and we know how random the quality of pugs can be). When Nightfall came, Heroes changed that completely.

 

 

 

[thepenmonster.3621]

>Scruffy

 

The point that I realized that we can probably kill all of the ED with burning floors.

[mindcircus.1506]

> @"Raknar.4735" said:

> It's still sad to see how basically no one does it here in the GW community. The only time I've seen the GW2 playerbase do something similiar was during a raid tournament by not allowing downed state.

Wooden Potatoes did a series of "Iron Man" challenge streams with various restrictions such as permadeath, or only equipping items the story gave him... a variety of different things. A bunch of us were pretty stoked on this at the time. A few of us started challenge runs of our own. I know a few streamers like Jebro also started one as well.

But the last one I recall WP doing for GW2 was the "No Skill" challenge in which he proved that the personal story could be beaten in it's entirety by a player character using no weapon or utility skills.

Let that sink in a moment... the personal story of Guild Wars 2 can be beaten by a Ranger pet.

Once those of us interested in "Challenge Runs" saw this, the whole idea of making the game harder in this way went out the window.

How much more challenging can the player make it after "no skills"?

> @"Fueki.4753 " said:

>That is an issue that should be dealt by overly strong players taking of their gear or simply holding back, not by artificially inflating things and making it harder for anyone.

It's funny, the last time this argument showed up on the forums I gave it some serious thought.

I said to myself "Maybe the problem is me. Maybe the issue is that I run into these Story instances with my full-ascended armor/weapons/trinkets when they are balanced for much lower." And I thought to myself that maybe, as you suggested the answer was for me to gimp my toon and that this would give me an engaging fight.

So I cooked up a little condi Soulbeast build and kitted him out with the finest Masterwork Carrion gear the TP had to offer.

 

[Here is the Gear](https://i.imgur.com/WEPiyd6.jpg)

Here is the Build: [&DQQhOx4dNz4uF3gAuAAAALoAAAAbAAAAwAAAADQ9AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA=]

 

Then I asked myself which Bosses were most complained about on the forums for their difficulty....

I settled on Scruffy 2.0 from the final instance of LW4.1. The other three (Caudecus in LW3.4, Mordremoth at the end of HoT and Bathazar at the end of PoF) required much more story advancement. Scruffy 2.0 is often pointed out to as an encounter with "bullet hell" and an "HP Sponge" boss.

 

Here's the problem. It wasn't harder.

Trash mobs on the way to the boss encounter were a bit more tedious but the boss itself was a simple affair. I finished the Boss encounter easily in a few minutes.

The vast majority of Story encounters in this game are skill checks, You are taught a couple of mechanics on the way to the boss. As long as you execute these mechanics there is little functional difference between fighting the boss in green Carrion gear or full ascended Viper's . Boss Phases generally ensure that the mechanics need to be worked. They are designed this way to minimize the impact of gear.... you know so that the mythical "average" player is able to finish them as easily as well... people like me I suppose.

 

You can farm all the forum thumbs ups you want by saying players can take off their gear to make it more challenging but it's an ignorant meme that doesn't address the issue in the slightest.

I know because I tried.

[Fueki.4753]

> @"mindcircus.1506" said:

> Here's the problem. It wasn't harder.

> Trash mobs on the way to the boss encounter were a bit more tedious but the boss itself was a simple affair. I finished the Boss encounter easily in a few minutes.

> The vast majority of Story encounters in this game are skill checks, You are taught a couple of mechanics on the way to the boss. As long as you execute these mechanics there is little functional difference between fighting the boss in green Carrion gear or full ascended Viper's . Boss Phases generally ensure that the mechanics need to be worked. They are designed this way to minimize the impact of gear.... you know so that the mythical "average" player is able to finish them as easily as well... people like me I suppose.

>

> You can farm all the forum thumbs ups you want by saying players can take off their gear to make it more challenging but it's an ignorant meme that doesn't address the issue in the slightest.

> I know because I tried.

 

Did you realize that the comment I answered on wasn't about difficulty, but about bosses dying too fast for that person to see any mechanics bosses might have?

For such a person, reducing the output and causing the boss to die slower and activate mechanics **is** the most feasible solution.

Of course the boss itself doesn't get harder. It doesn't change by players taking off gear.

 

[Raknar.4735]

> @"mindcircus.1506" said:

> > @"Raknar.4735" said:

> > It's still sad to see how basically no one does it here in the GW community. The only time I've seen the GW2 playerbase do something similiar was during a raid tournament by not allowing downed state.

> Wooden Potatoes did a series of "Iron Man" challenge streams with various restrictions such as permadeath, or only equipping items the story gave him... a variety of different things. A bunch of us were pretty stoked on this at the time. A few of us started challenge runs of our own. I know a few streamers like Jebro also started one as well.

> But the last one I recall WP doing for GW2 was the "No Skill" challenge in which he proved that the personal story could be beaten in it's entirety by a player character using no weapon or utility skills.

> Let that sink in a moment... the personal story of Guild Wars 2 can be beaten by a Ranger pet.

> Once those of us interested in "Challenge Runs" saw this, the whole idea of making the game harder in this way went out the window.

> How much more challenging can the player make it after "no skills"?

 

I'm aware WP did clear the outdated personal story from 2012 with a ranger pet. Ranger pets don't scale with player equipment, so the equipped items didn't really matter. I applaud WP for doing something out of the box, which only a few do.

I'm not sure, did he only beat the old personal story, or even newer releases with bossfights like Balthazar or Scruffy?

I'd be interested in a pet soloing newer bosses, like Scruffy or Balthazar. But I guess since WP beat the story, no one else has to try it.

Or do the same challenge without a pet class for that matter.

 

That's why no one wants to do the iron man challenge in WoW, because someone else did it first!

 

I mean, even Dark Souls, how much more challenging can someone make it, when people finish it on SL1, or when The Happy Hob was able to beat all parts, including Bloodborne and Demon Souls, without being hit? The whole game can be beaten without getting hit, imagine that!

No reason to do any more challenges in Dark Souls, ever.

[Asum.4960]

> @"Raknar.4735" said:

> > @"mindcircus.1506" said:

> > > @"Raknar.4735" said:

> > > It's still sad to see how basically no one does it here in the GW community. The only time I've seen the GW2 playerbase do something similiar was during a raid tournament by not allowing downed state.

> > Wooden Potatoes did a series of "Iron Man" challenge streams with various restrictions such as permadeath, or only equipping items the story gave him... a variety of different things. A bunch of us were pretty stoked on this at the time. A few of us started challenge runs of our own. I know a few streamers like Jebro also started one as well.

> > But the last one I recall WP doing for GW2 was the "No Skill" challenge in which he proved that the personal story could be beaten in it's entirety by a player character using no weapon or utility skills.

> > Let that sink in a moment... the personal story of Guild Wars 2 can be beaten by a Ranger pet.

> > Once those of us interested in "Challenge Runs" saw this, the whole idea of making the game harder in this way went out the window.

> > How much more challenging can the player make it after "no skills"?

>

> I'm aware WP did clear the outdated personal story from 2012 with a ranger pet. Ranger pets don't scale with player equipment, so the equipped items didn't really matter. I applaud WP for doing something out of the box, which only a few do.

> I'm not sure, did he only beat the old personal story, or even newer releases with bossfights like Balthazar or Scruffy?

> I'd be interested in a pet soloing newer bosses, like Scruffy or Balthazar. But I guess since WP beat the story, no one else has to try it.

> Or do the same challenge without a pet class for that matter.

>

> That's why no one wants to do the iron man challenge in WoW, because someone else did it first!

>

> I mean, even Dark Souls, how much more challenging can someone make it, when people finish it on SL1, or when The Happy Hob was able to beat all parts, including Bloodborne and Demon Souls, without being hit? The whole game can be beaten without getting hit, imagine that!

> No reason to do any more challenges in Dark Souls, ever.

 

The point is there needs to be a baseline difficulty to make challenge runs worth it/satisfying to do. Soloing MAMA in 99CM is fun and engaging, even if people have already done it, because it's still an achievement to have done so. Soloing Story content without Gear, Utilities, dodge rolling, or even not using any skills altogether is just tedious and doesn't prove anything at all when an AI Pet can solo it. And once that's done, what's the point? Anyone can do that, or rather, anyones Pet can.

 

 

> @"Fueki.4753" said:

> > @"mindcircus.1506" said:

> > Here's the problem. It wasn't harder.

> > Trash mobs on the way to the boss encounter were a bit more tedious but the boss itself was a simple affair. I finished the Boss encounter easily in a few minutes.

> > The vast majority of Story encounters in this game are skill checks, You are taught a couple of mechanics on the way to the boss. As long as you execute these mechanics there is little functional difference between fighting the boss in green Carrion gear or full ascended Viper's . Boss Phases generally ensure that the mechanics need to be worked. They are designed this way to minimize the impact of gear.... you know so that the mythical "average" player is able to finish them as easily as well... people like me I suppose.

> >

> > You can farm all the forum thumbs ups you want by saying players can take off their gear to make it more challenging but it's an ignorant meme that doesn't address the issue in the slightest.

> > I know because I tried.

>

> Did you realize that the comment I answered on wasn't about difficulty, but about bosses dying too fast for that person to see any mechanics bosses might have?

> For such a person, reducing the output and causing the boss to die slower and activate mechanics **is** the most feasible solution.

> Of course the boss itself doesn't get harder. It doesn't change by players taking off gear.

>

 

That still only fixes (less than) half of the problem though. Sure, you then get to see some of the mechanics, but they are still tuned to be so easy that they are meaningless, so you are still left with essentially just watching a boring fight.

That isn't much better than just nuking the boss and skipping all of the mechanics that don't matter anyway, other than for RP/appreciating what the devs designed and wondering about how fun the fight could have been, at which point you might as well just watch the Story on Youtube since the gameplay doesn't matter.