bravan.3876 Posted May 5, 2020 Share Posted May 5, 2020 > @"viquing.8254" said: > @"bravan.3876" : > On a side note, It's lovely how you jump on litteraly EVERY mesmers post while rarely posting on other class. > Mean vast majority of your replies are on mesmers asking for more "mind rework" with your usual ego tendency who should improve the ceil of the class. > But ofc it's not at all a crusade on mesmer, as you said you want to rework all classes (but only by destroying mesmers.), I'm just paranoid... And you find just as many comments of me defending Mesmers vs stupid nonsense changes, means yes you are paranoid. > @"viquing.8254" said: > It is because contrary to having different form, skills from forms have differents traits synergy than normal skills. > Mean if you take a on skills activation skill, it's 2 times more efficient if you double it while with shroud you either take a normal skill activation or a on shroud skill activation. > Like @"bravan.3876" explained better than my bad english. > So yeah CS should be removed at least for core ulti who are garbage and were balanced with CS in mind. I still don't think CS needs to be removed, it just need another trade off instead contradicting basic shatter mechanics with deletion of IP or overnerfs with deletion of f4. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArlsTipsierAlt.9138 Posted May 5, 2020 Share Posted May 5, 2020 > @"bravan.3876" said: > > @"ArlsTipsierAlt.9138" said: > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > @"ArlsTipsierAlt.9138" said: > > > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > > > @"ArlsTipsierAlt.9138" said: > > > > > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > > > > > @"ArlsTipsierAlt.9138" said: > > > > > > > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"ArlsTipsierAlt.9138" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Odik.4587" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Wait... because you think anything casted twice is beyond busted... chronomancer should be unplayble garbage? (Because they will never give up on it) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You know how does it feel? Probably the same if holo forge would had 90s cd, thats how I see chronomancer since its release. Chronomancer always been a core mesmer with this omegastrong Cont.Spit (on a huge cd) without its own unique feature (stolen alacrity and alacrity itself is very week) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's more that because chrono can double up on anything then anything it can double up on has to be garbage to not make Chrono insanely strong. Remember Phantasm Chrono? All those phantasms were OK without Chrono but because of Chrono phantasma every phantasm it used is poo. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So yes, I'd rather Chrono be unusable if the rest of the class and other elite specs (we know another is coming) can actually have decent utility skills. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Edit: However my preferred choice is to remove the ability to double up and boost alacrity gains for Chrono. This provides CDR without running a foul of doubling up. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Chrono Phantasma could give you alacrity for every phantasm you summon. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Continuum Split could give you alacrity based on number of clones shattered. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Turns Chrono from a "higher skill ceiling than core" spec into a simple lower cds- lower punishment for cd wastes- lower skill ceiling skill spam monster, gg. CS at least is active gameplay, gives more combos and adds for that skill cieling, makes a big difference between a good and a bad Chrono. Just some lower cds in a very passive way (ok you click one button to apply the boon or effect of alacrtity but that is not rly highering the skill ceiling remarkable, all other ways to get alacrity just happen as a side effect from spamming other skills for other purposes and are for that active-passive in a way not adding skill ceiling). Overall you just give Chrono lower cds without adding any skill ceiling. That is clearly worse than the CS mechanic. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My PoV still is, that stat penalty can do the job without turning Chrono into something completely different would need a rename, by keeping its interesting and higher skill ceiling main mechanic (CS) and without making it unplayable by contradicting basic mechanics of the class or elite spec itself. If Chrono has to give up dmg and sustain for some lower cds on utilities, like a strong double boon remove on the utility phantasm or double moa than this is a fair trade off and no balance issue anymore. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, much skill giving an instant refresh button to every skill. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You messed up your skills? No problem you were in CS so get to use it all again while the enemy had to manage their cool downs, positioning and abilities to avoid your stuff. Rinse and repeat. This was exactly one of the problems with Phantasm Chrono, you summoned your stuff 2-4 times and it didn't actually matter if you used skills correctly you threw out so much stuff no-one could really deal with it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Giving a free reset to skills doesn't increase the skill ceiling **unless those skills are weaker than without the reset** which is hard to balance because as I pointed out you can't simply reduce stats and say good enough as many skill effects will be left untouched which is a major aspect to mesmer, the effects. You could reduce the duration and effect in CS but then you're creating a lot of work for yourself back end as each one would have to be a separate skill (like lesser X) which also means adjustments any time you buff/nerf elsewhere. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Adding alacrity to those components does make it simpler to use but it also makes it less of a headache to balance and adjust, what would you rather have? A mangled corpse of a spec that can never be allowed to be good and will always have the potential to throw off balance in a massive way or a more streamlined spec that is actually useable and won't cause the rest of the class to be a mangled misshapen mess(mer) of a class? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I know what I would choose. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You were a horrible Chrono i guess? xD Whatever i am still not in the mood for wall of text explanations of the obvious. Even more a waste of time because Anet seems to not read and understand anything about Mesmer anyway either. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > nobody gets mesmer, only you. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I would never claim that. But you (and few others, asparma it seems for example) and Anet for certain not, that is all i am saying. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I can date back apharma for about as long as I've kitten posted. That alones gives me the impression that we've played the same game and have had similar experiences over time. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The problem with forum heroes is: Every 2 or so years we get a fresh batch of players wanting to express their opinion about the status quo, while repeating previously expressed opinions of now Former players. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Just that how long you know ppl and how long ppl play the game doesn't prove anything about how much they know and understand or how well they play. Also i play this game from beta days myself, still doesn't prove anything. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > See where I'm getting with this? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Means you will get nowhere with that claims. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Also there is a difference between blindly repeating other opinions or adapting while rethinking stuff i heard/ read based on logic, logical deduction and own knowledge/ understanding and experience with the game. The first thing is stupidity/narrowness paired with lack of knowledge and understanding and lack in the ability of own creative thinking. The second is being flexible in mind and not stubborn while not blindly following every propaganda no matter how right the propaganda looks on a first superficial view and how good it looks for ppl without either the iq or the knowledge to look deeper by their own. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There's literally nothing you can say that will prove said point. Because of that , what're you on about?\ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's like you're arguin for the sake of argument... what are you? 15? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Please what? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > > > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Quadox.7834" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Odik.4587" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Wait... because you think anything casted twice is beyond busted... chronomancer should be unplayble garbage? (Because they will never give up on it) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You know how does it feel? Probably the same if holo forge would had 90s cd, thats how I see chronomancer since its release. Chronomancer always been a core mesmer with this omegastrong Cont.Spit (on a huge cd) without its own unique feature (stolen alacrity and alacrity itself is very week) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's more that because chrono can double up on anything then anything it can double up on has to be garbage to not make Chrono insanely strong. Remember Phantasm Chrono? All those phantasms were OK without Chrono but because of Chrono phantasma every phantasm it used is poo. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So yes, I'd rather Chrono be unusable if the rest of the class and other elite specs (we know another is coming) can actually have decent utility skills. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Edit: However my preferred choice is to remove the ability to double up and boost alacrity gains for Chrono. This provides CDR without running a foul of doubling up. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Chrono Phantasma could give you alacrity for every phantasm you summon. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Continuum Split could give you alacrity based on number of clones shattered. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Turns Chrono from a "higher skill ceiling than core" spec into a simple lower cds- lower punishment for cd wastes- lower skill ceiling skill spam monster, gg. CS at least is active gameplay, gives more combos and adds for that skill cieling, makes a big difference between a good and a bad Chrono. Just some lower cds in a very passive way (ok you click one button to apply the boon or effect of alacrtity but that is not rly highering the skill ceiling remarkable, all other ways to get alacrity just happen as a side effect from spamming other skills for other purposes and are for that active-passive in a way not adding skill ceiling). Overall you just give Chrono lower cds without adding any skill ceiling. That is clearly worse than the CS mechanic. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My PoV still is, that stat penalty can do the job without turning Chrono into something completely different would need a rename, by keeping its interesting and higher skill ceiling main mechanic (CS) and without making it unplayable by contradicting basic mechanics of the class or elite spec itself. If Chrono has to give up dmg and sustain for some lower cds on utilities, like a strong double boon remove on the utility phantasm or double moa than this is a fair trade off and no balance issue anymore. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, much skill giving an instant refresh button to every skill. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You messed up your skills? No problem you were in CS so get to use it all again while the enemy had to manage their cool downs, positioning and abilities to avoid your stuff. Rinse and repeat. This was exactly one of the problems with Phantasm Chrono, you summoned your stuff 2-4 times and it didn't actually matter if you used skills correctly you threw out so much stuff no-one could really deal with it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Giving a free reset to skills doesn't increase the skill ceiling **unless those skills are weaker than without the reset** which is hard to balance because as I pointed out you can't simply reduce stats and say good enough as many skill effects will be left untouched which is a major aspect to mesmer, the effects. You could reduce the duration and effect in CS but then you're creating a lot of work for yourself back end as each one would have to be a separate skill (like lesser X) which also means adjustments any time you buff/nerf elsewhere. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Adding alacrity to those components does make it simpler to use but it also makes it less of a headache to balance and adjust, what would you rather have? A mangled corpse of a spec that can never be allowed to be good and will always have the potential to throw off balance in a massive way or a more streamlined spec that is actually useable and won't cause the rest of the class to be a mangled misshapen mess(mer) of a class? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I know what I would choose. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm so close to voluntarily getting an infraction when reading stuff like this you have no idea. You simply don't understand what something being "skilled" means. Ask yourself, will a random gold Mesmer get as much consistent value from continuum split as some 10k hours high-level Mesmer? No, not even close, because CS is incredibly situational, with a myriad of ways to use it appropriately, plan your cooldowns, and so on and so forth. It is not like having perma alacrity, or perma 25 might (as an example), which would be buffs that any player get huge value out of. What you are saying, is the same as saying that Portal is "just an instant teleport across the map, no skill in that waow", i.e. completely dumb. When compared to mirage and (especially) core, chrono is more "skilled". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ask yourself, will a random gold [class] get as much consistent value from [overpowered skill] as some 10k hours high-level [class]? No not even close. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That's your entire argument and it works with literally everything because worse players will always get less value out of something. Got a real candidate for the 2020 stating the obvious competition here. The problem is at all levels you have to balance every skill to take into account that you could use it twice in a fight which means those singular skills have to be worse in general so that when they are reliably doubled up on they don't become overbearing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Did literally no-one here understand that it's chrono phantasma and continuum split doubling up that made phantasm chrono so completely broken even on those gold pleb mesmers? The easiest way to figure this out was asking yourself "was the same build broken on mirage or core mesmer?" No because neither of those classes could double up on the skills involved. "Were the skills involved overpowered on core and mirage?" No because you could only use them once per cool down. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Want more? Look at Moa. The entire skill was balanced around continuum split when they reduced it's duration to 6s making it useless on all mesmer builds ever since despite core mesmer using it in core on the same cool down. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Facepalm... a lot of them actually > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hey, I at least keep it down to about 200 words. Yes it's 228, I'm allowed a little over and under! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > True, can't argue with that :joy: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I try, you can see i try, i tryhard even... to do the same! > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm starting to UNDERSTAND what @"Odik.4587" means, when he said talking to Bravan is like talking to the Radio. > > > > > > > > > > If i understand you right, your argument was, that you know apharma longer and based on that you assume, that apharma knows the game better (or at least you trust his comments more). I told you that the fat, that you know apharma lionger doesn't prove anythign about how right or wrogn he is, how good he knows or understand the game. Means i don't get your firts response to me. It makes no sense at all. Who is the radio here? > > > > > > > > But me agreeing with the bulk of his opinions over the years compared to me having less opinions agreed with over the overall span of time, MAKES ME more inclined to take APHARMA's word over yours more openly. > > > > I mean we don't have to look at my case and if you want to do the read, we can take a look at Human Psychology 101. > > > > > > > > Edit: In other words, yes I know apharma longer so I'm much more likely to take his word over yours. Why is that so surprising? > > > > > > No it is ok that you will take his word over mine, i don't even care at all. I just told you, that the reasons you listed for that do not rly make much sense. But it is up to you ofc. The best would be, you start to use your own brain instead just taking anyones word, also not mine... > > > > Being able to take and understand someone else's point (other than yours) is a fundamentally human trait. Being able to understand we're not always right is a tad bit more complicated but it's still only human trait. I don't agree with Apharma just because I know him longer, I agree with him because over the span of 8 years I've read enough of his opinions that I agreed with (even if I didn't express myself verbally,) to make me think Them and I see the game in much the same way. > > Now what you say makes more sense, please re-read your first comment, you literally called me a short time playing forum hero what turns your argument into something you might not have intended but it limits it and makes it look narrowed. As said i don't care at all if you agree to me or not. I can accept and also now understand your point, also when i do not agree to apharma or you. I still would have prefered a response like "i agree to apharma, because... insert based on logic and knowledge arguments to the topic" instead only saying "i agree to apharma because i think we see the game in the same way". That would have been way more contructive for the topic itself, because tbh i don't care who you know better and agree more with or not. I am only interested in your arguments, because that is all that can convince me to be wrong in anything. Arguments based logic, facts combined with correct logical deductions, knowledge/understanding and experience with/ of the game. And you felt the need to express your dissatisfaction with my response in so many words because? Also it’s WITH, not TO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bravan.3876 Posted May 5, 2020 Share Posted May 5, 2020 > @"ArlsTipsierAlt.9138" said: > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > @"ArlsTipsierAlt.9138" said: > > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > > @"ArlsTipsierAlt.9138" said: > > > > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > > > > @"ArlsTipsierAlt.9138" said: > > > > > > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > > > > > > @"ArlsTipsierAlt.9138" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"ArlsTipsierAlt.9138" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Odik.4587" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Wait... because you think anything casted twice is beyond busted... chronomancer should be unplayble garbage? (Because they will never give up on it) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You know how does it feel? Probably the same if holo forge would had 90s cd, thats how I see chronomancer since its release. Chronomancer always been a core mesmer with this omegastrong Cont.Spit (on a huge cd) without its own unique feature (stolen alacrity and alacrity itself is very week) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's more that because chrono can double up on anything then anything it can double up on has to be garbage to not make Chrono insanely strong. Remember Phantasm Chrono? All those phantasms were OK without Chrono but because of Chrono phantasma every phantasm it used is poo. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So yes, I'd rather Chrono be unusable if the rest of the class and other elite specs (we know another is coming) can actually have decent utility skills. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Edit: However my preferred choice is to remove the ability to double up and boost alacrity gains for Chrono. This provides CDR without running a foul of doubling up. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Chrono Phantasma could give you alacrity for every phantasm you summon. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Continuum Split could give you alacrity based on number of clones shattered. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Turns Chrono from a "higher skill ceiling than core" spec into a simple lower cds- lower punishment for cd wastes- lower skill ceiling skill spam monster, gg. CS at least is active gameplay, gives more combos and adds for that skill cieling, makes a big difference between a good and a bad Chrono. Just some lower cds in a very passive way (ok you click one button to apply the boon or effect of alacrtity but that is not rly highering the skill ceiling remarkable, all other ways to get alacrity just happen as a side effect from spamming other skills for other purposes and are for that active-passive in a way not adding skill ceiling). Overall you just give Chrono lower cds without adding any skill ceiling. That is clearly worse than the CS mechanic. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My PoV still is, that stat penalty can do the job without turning Chrono into something completely different would need a rename, by keeping its interesting and higher skill ceiling main mechanic (CS) and without making it unplayable by contradicting basic mechanics of the class or elite spec itself. If Chrono has to give up dmg and sustain for some lower cds on utilities, like a strong double boon remove on the utility phantasm or double moa than this is a fair trade off and no balance issue anymore. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, much skill giving an instant refresh button to every skill. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You messed up your skills? No problem you were in CS so get to use it all again while the enemy had to manage their cool downs, positioning and abilities to avoid your stuff. Rinse and repeat. This was exactly one of the problems with Phantasm Chrono, you summoned your stuff 2-4 times and it didn't actually matter if you used skills correctly you threw out so much stuff no-one could really deal with it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Giving a free reset to skills doesn't increase the skill ceiling **unless those skills are weaker than without the reset** which is hard to balance because as I pointed out you can't simply reduce stats and say good enough as many skill effects will be left untouched which is a major aspect to mesmer, the effects. You could reduce the duration and effect in CS but then you're creating a lot of work for yourself back end as each one would have to be a separate skill (like lesser X) which also means adjustments any time you buff/nerf elsewhere. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Adding alacrity to those components does make it simpler to use but it also makes it less of a headache to balance and adjust, what would you rather have? A mangled corpse of a spec that can never be allowed to be good and will always have the potential to throw off balance in a massive way or a more streamlined spec that is actually useable and won't cause the rest of the class to be a mangled misshapen mess(mer) of a class? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I know what I would choose. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You were a horrible Chrono i guess? xD Whatever i am still not in the mood for wall of text explanations of the obvious. Even more a waste of time because Anet seems to not read and understand anything about Mesmer anyway either. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > nobody gets mesmer, only you. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I would never claim that. But you (and few others, asparma it seems for example) and Anet for certain not, that is all i am saying. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I can date back apharma for about as long as I've kitten posted. That alones gives me the impression that we've played the same game and have had similar experiences over time. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The problem with forum heroes is: Every 2 or so years we get a fresh batch of players wanting to express their opinion about the status quo, while repeating previously expressed opinions of now Former players. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Just that how long you know ppl and how long ppl play the game doesn't prove anything about how much they know and understand or how well they play. Also i play this game from beta days myself, still doesn't prove anything. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > See where I'm getting with this? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Means you will get nowhere with that claims. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Also there is a difference between blindly repeating other opinions or adapting while rethinking stuff i heard/ read based on logic, logical deduction and own knowledge/ understanding and experience with the game. The first thing is stupidity/narrowness paired with lack of knowledge and understanding and lack in the ability of own creative thinking. The second is being flexible in mind and not stubborn while not blindly following every propaganda no matter how right the propaganda looks on a first superficial view and how good it looks for ppl without either the iq or the knowledge to look deeper by their own. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There's literally nothing you can say that will prove said point. Because of that , what're you on about?\ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's like you're arguin for the sake of argument... what are you? 15? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Please what? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Quadox.7834" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Odik.4587" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Wait... because you think anything casted twice is beyond busted... chronomancer should be unplayble garbage? (Because they will never give up on it) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You know how does it feel? Probably the same if holo forge would had 90s cd, thats how I see chronomancer since its release. Chronomancer always been a core mesmer with this omegastrong Cont.Spit (on a huge cd) without its own unique feature (stolen alacrity and alacrity itself is very week) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's more that because chrono can double up on anything then anything it can double up on has to be garbage to not make Chrono insanely strong. Remember Phantasm Chrono? All those phantasms were OK without Chrono but because of Chrono phantasma every phantasm it used is poo. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So yes, I'd rather Chrono be unusable if the rest of the class and other elite specs (we know another is coming) can actually have decent utility skills. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Edit: However my preferred choice is to remove the ability to double up and boost alacrity gains for Chrono. This provides CDR without running a foul of doubling up. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Chrono Phantasma could give you alacrity for every phantasm you summon. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Continuum Split could give you alacrity based on number of clones shattered. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Turns Chrono from a "higher skill ceiling than core" spec into a simple lower cds- lower punishment for cd wastes- lower skill ceiling skill spam monster, gg. CS at least is active gameplay, gives more combos and adds for that skill cieling, makes a big difference between a good and a bad Chrono. Just some lower cds in a very passive way (ok you click one button to apply the boon or effect of alacrtity but that is not rly highering the skill ceiling remarkable, all other ways to get alacrity just happen as a side effect from spamming other skills for other purposes and are for that active-passive in a way not adding skill ceiling). Overall you just give Chrono lower cds without adding any skill ceiling. That is clearly worse than the CS mechanic. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My PoV still is, that stat penalty can do the job without turning Chrono into something completely different would need a rename, by keeping its interesting and higher skill ceiling main mechanic (CS) and without making it unplayable by contradicting basic mechanics of the class or elite spec itself. If Chrono has to give up dmg and sustain for some lower cds on utilities, like a strong double boon remove on the utility phantasm or double moa than this is a fair trade off and no balance issue anymore. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, much skill giving an instant refresh button to every skill. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You messed up your skills? No problem you were in CS so get to use it all again while the enemy had to manage their cool downs, positioning and abilities to avoid your stuff. Rinse and repeat. This was exactly one of the problems with Phantasm Chrono, you summoned your stuff 2-4 times and it didn't actually matter if you used skills correctly you threw out so much stuff no-one could really deal with it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Giving a free reset to skills doesn't increase the skill ceiling **unless those skills are weaker than without the reset** which is hard to balance because as I pointed out you can't simply reduce stats and say good enough as many skill effects will be left untouched which is a major aspect to mesmer, the effects. You could reduce the duration and effect in CS but then you're creating a lot of work for yourself back end as each one would have to be a separate skill (like lesser X) which also means adjustments any time you buff/nerf elsewhere. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Adding alacrity to those components does make it simpler to use but it also makes it less of a headache to balance and adjust, what would you rather have? A mangled corpse of a spec that can never be allowed to be good and will always have the potential to throw off balance in a massive way or a more streamlined spec that is actually useable and won't cause the rest of the class to be a mangled misshapen mess(mer) of a class? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I know what I would choose. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm so close to voluntarily getting an infraction when reading stuff like this you have no idea. You simply don't understand what something being "skilled" means. Ask yourself, will a random gold Mesmer get as much consistent value from continuum split as some 10k hours high-level Mesmer? No, not even close, because CS is incredibly situational, with a myriad of ways to use it appropriately, plan your cooldowns, and so on and so forth. It is not like having perma alacrity, or perma 25 might (as an example), which would be buffs that any player get huge value out of. What you are saying, is the same as saying that Portal is "just an instant teleport across the map, no skill in that waow", i.e. completely dumb. When compared to mirage and (especially) core, chrono is more "skilled". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ask yourself, will a random gold [class] get as much consistent value from [overpowered skill] as some 10k hours high-level [class]? No not even close. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That's your entire argument and it works with literally everything because worse players will always get less value out of something. Got a real candidate for the 2020 stating the obvious competition here. The problem is at all levels you have to balance every skill to take into account that you could use it twice in a fight which means those singular skills have to be worse in general so that when they are reliably doubled up on they don't become overbearing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Did literally no-one here understand that it's chrono phantasma and continuum split doubling up that made phantasm chrono so completely broken even on those gold pleb mesmers? The easiest way to figure this out was asking yourself "was the same build broken on mirage or core mesmer?" No because neither of those classes could double up on the skills involved. "Were the skills involved overpowered on core and mirage?" No because you could only use them once per cool down. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Want more? Look at Moa. The entire skill was balanced around continuum split when they reduced it's duration to 6s making it useless on all mesmer builds ever since despite core mesmer using it in core on the same cool down. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Facepalm... a lot of them actually > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hey, I at least keep it down to about 200 words. Yes it's 228, I'm allowed a little over and under! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > True, can't argue with that :joy: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I try, you can see i try, i tryhard even... to do the same! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm starting to UNDERSTAND what @"Odik.4587" means, when he said talking to Bravan is like talking to the Radio. > > > > > > > > > > > > If i understand you right, your argument was, that you know apharma longer and based on that you assume, that apharma knows the game better (or at least you trust his comments more). I told you that the fat, that you know apharma lionger doesn't prove anythign about how right or wrogn he is, how good he knows or understand the game. Means i don't get your firts response to me. It makes no sense at all. Who is the radio here? > > > > > > > > > > But me agreeing with the bulk of his opinions over the years compared to me having less opinions agreed with over the overall span of time, MAKES ME more inclined to take APHARMA's word over yours more openly. > > > > > I mean we don't have to look at my case and if you want to do the read, we can take a look at Human Psychology 101. > > > > > > > > > > Edit: In other words, yes I know apharma longer so I'm much more likely to take his word over yours. Why is that so surprising? > > > > > > > > No it is ok that you will take his word over mine, i don't even care at all. I just told you, that the reasons you listed for that do not rly make much sense. But it is up to you ofc. The best would be, you start to use your own brain instead just taking anyones word, also not mine... > > > > > > Being able to take and understand someone else's point (other than yours) is a fundamentally human trait. Being able to understand we're not always right is a tad bit more complicated but it's still only human trait. I don't agree with Apharma just because I know him longer, I agree with him because over the span of 8 years I've read enough of his opinions that I agreed with (even if I didn't express myself verbally,) to make me think Them and I see the game in much the same way. > > > > Now what you say makes more sense, please re-read your first comment, you literally called me a short time playing forum hero what turns your argument into something you might not have intended but it limits it and makes it look narrowed. As said i don't care at all if you agree to me or not. I can accept and also now understand your point, also when i do not agree to apharma or you. I still would have prefered a response like "i agree to apharma, because... insert based on logic and knowledge arguments to the topic" instead only saying "i agree to apharma because i think we see the game in the same way". That would have been way more contructive for the topic itself, because tbh i don't care who you know better and agree more with or not. I am only interested in your arguments, because that is all that can convince me to be wrong in anything. Arguments based logic, facts combined with correct logical deductions, knowledge/understanding and experience with/ of the game. > > And you felt the need to express your dissatisfaction with my response in so many words because? > Also it’s WITH, not TO. Seems you just want to be negative, and i don't want to waste more time with unconstructive ppl only having fun in (sry with ofc) semantic responses. Wait are you ArlAlt? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonidrex.5649 Posted May 5, 2020 Share Posted May 5, 2020 stop tagging me -.- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArlsTipsierAlt.9138 Posted May 5, 2020 Share Posted May 5, 2020 > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > stop tagging me -.- Did I? Sorry I’m nursing a glorious high. @local authorities I promise I have a Medical card. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bravan.3876 Posted May 5, 2020 Share Posted May 5, 2020 > @"ArlsTipsierAlt.9138" said: > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > stop tagging me -.- > > Did I? Sorry I’m nursing a glorious high. @local authorities I promise I have a Medical card. Your other account perma banned ArlAlt? Feels like every incarnation of yours gets more troll...y...ish > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > stop tagging me -.- No escape for you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonidrex.5649 Posted May 5, 2020 Share Posted May 5, 2020 @"bravan.3876" stop tagging me, please Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArlsTipsierAlt.9138 Posted May 5, 2020 Share Posted May 5, 2020 @"bravan.3876" NO! Cash is king, especially now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bravan.3876 Posted May 5, 2020 Share Posted May 5, 2020 @"ArlsTipsierAlt.9138" yes and expansion was on sale xD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArlsTipsierAlt.9138 Posted May 5, 2020 Share Posted May 5, 2020 Deleted blah blah @"bravan.3876" are you trying to bait me or smth? Double U Tee Eff my man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
judgebeo.3976 Posted May 5, 2020 Share Posted May 5, 2020 sadly ... this will never happen, you are suggesting things that has been already removed, like the damage while interrupting, or chronophantasm... Just... think, anet have their plans, you wasted your time with this cause is going in opposite direcction. by the way... i keep playing chrono in pvp :) may get a buff, yes, but i dont want to turn into a cheesykillingmachine, like other specs. I think it needs an objective, I mean, if you take a look to mirage, is pretty good focused for condition spam, including the condi from clones, or the damage buff, and also, got some good defense specs... chrono is like a "test", some from here, some from there, it has been modified thousand times and, actually, nobody understand what is the point on this spec... So, taking a look to its history, dont seems your ideas will reach anet in anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quadox.7834 Posted May 5, 2020 Share Posted May 5, 2020 > @"viquing.8254" said: > @"Tayga.3192" : > It's not a surprise but I'm on the side to going more into a no IP spec with other substitute. > I like seize the moment suggestion. > About core changes, even if there are dead traits in the list, I'm more on @"Dadnir.5038" view whe he said : > > You don't improve an elite spec by making core profession change. All of those impact the profession as a whole and are potential balance hazard. > About retal on phantasm, well, @"Pyroatheist.9031" immortal build come back ? > They probably should take more look into wells. > Mean if it's supposed to be teamfight spec or utility spec : wells should be impact full, shatter should be realiable aoe effects and illusions should not die in one auto as well. > > @"bravan.3876" : > On a side note, It's lovely how you jump on litteraly EVERY mesmers post while rarely posting on other class. > Mean vast majority of your replies are on mesmers asking for more "mind rework" with your usual ego tendency who should improve the ceil of the class. > But ofc it's not at all a crusade on mesmer, as you said you want to rework all classes (but only by destroying mesmers.), I'm just paranoid... > > > @"Quadox.7834" said: > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > @"Odik.4587" said: > > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > Wait... because you think anything casted twice is beyond busted... chronomancer should be unplayble garbage? (Because they will never give up on it) > > > > You know how does it feel? Probably the same if holo forge would had 90s cd, thats how I see chronomancer since its release. Chronomancer always been a core mesmer with this omegastrong Cont.Spit (on a huge cd) without its own unique feature (stolen alacrity and alacrity itself is very week) > > > > > > It's more that because chrono can double up on anything then anything it can double up on has to be garbage to not make Chrono insanely strong. Remember Phantasm Chrono? All those phantasms were OK without Chrono but because of Chrono phantasma every phantasm it used is poo. > > > > > > So yes, I'd rather Chrono be unusable if the rest of the class and other elite specs (we know another is coming) can actually have decent utility skills. > > > > > > Edit: However my preferred choice is to remove the ability to double up and boost alacrity gains for Chrono. This provides CDR without running a foul of doubling up. > > > Chrono Phantasma could give you alacrity for every phantasm you summon. > > > Continuum Split could give you alacrity based on number of clones shattered. > > > > I think I have said it before but you simply overrate continuum split. It is not really much different from having a different form (shroud, rampage, CA), but instead of getting different skills you get to use your regular skills. > > It is because contrary to having different form, skills from forms have differents traits synergy than normal skills. > Mean if you take a on skills activation skill, it's 2 times more efficient if you double it while with shroud you either take a normal skill activation or a on shroud skill activation. > Like @"bravan.3876" explained better than my bad english. > So yeah CS should be removed at least for core ulti who are garbage and were balanced with CS in mind. > > > > Let's do a hypothetical. Take core Mesmer and replace distortion with CS, and do not allow CS to reset elites (no other changes). Would you take this over core? If yes, increase cooldown of CS by 10 seconds. Would you still take it over core? Increase cooldown of CS by 10 seconds. And so on. At what point do you think the tradeoff of getting CS but losing distortion would not be worth doing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGrillfather.6587 Posted May 5, 2020 Share Posted May 5, 2020 > @"bravan.3876" said: > @"ArlsTipsierAlt.9138" yes and expansion was on sale xD On sale and you get a BOGO 2 in 1 :wink: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bravan.3876 Posted May 6, 2020 Share Posted May 6, 2020 > @"TheGrillfather.6587" said: > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > @"ArlsTipsierAlt.9138" yes and expansion was on sale xD > > On sale and you get a BOGO 2 in 1 :wink: That's something! > @"ArlsTipsierAlt.9138" said: > Double U Tee Eff my man. Please don't! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGrillfather.6587 Posted May 6, 2020 Share Posted May 6, 2020 > @"bravan.3876" said: > > @"TheGrillfather.6587" said: > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > @"ArlsTipsierAlt.9138" yes and expansion was on sale xD > > > > On sale and you get a BOGO 2 in 1 :wink: > > That's something! Really inspires one to buy in bulk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bravan.3876 Posted May 6, 2020 Share Posted May 6, 2020 > @"TheGrillfather.6587" said: > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > @"TheGrillfather.6587" said: > > > > @"bravan.3876" said: > > > > @"ArlsTipsierAlt.9138" yes and expansion was on sale xD > > > > > > On sale and you get a BOGO 2 in 1 :wink: > > > > That's something! > > Really inspires one to buy in bulk. > Makes it hard to keep up with all your alts, Alt :joy: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
viquing.8254 Posted May 6, 2020 Share Posted May 6, 2020 > @"Quadox.7834" said: > > @"viquing.8254" said: > > @"Tayga.3192" : > > It's not a surprise but I'm on the side to going more into a no IP spec with other substitute. > > I like seize the moment suggestion. > > About core changes, even if there are dead traits in the list, I'm more on @"Dadnir.5038" view whe he said : > > > You don't improve an elite spec by making core profession change. All of those impact the profession as a whole and are potential balance hazard. > > About retal on phantasm, well, @"Pyroatheist.9031" immortal build come back ? > > They probably should take more look into wells. > > Mean if it's supposed to be teamfight spec or utility spec : wells should be impact full, shatter should be realiable aoe effects and illusions should not die in one auto as well. > > > > @"bravan.3876" : > > On a side note, It's lovely how you jump on litteraly EVERY mesmers post while rarely posting on other class. > > Mean vast majority of your replies are on mesmers asking for more "mind rework" with your usual ego tendency who should improve the ceil of the class. > > But ofc it's not at all a crusade on mesmer, as you said you want to rework all classes (but only by destroying mesmers.), I'm just paranoid... > > > > > @"Quadox.7834" said: > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > @"Odik.4587" said: > > > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > Wait... because you think anything casted twice is beyond busted... chronomancer should be unplayble garbage? (Because they will never give up on it) > > > > > You know how does it feel? Probably the same if holo forge would had 90s cd, thats how I see chronomancer since its release. Chronomancer always been a core mesmer with this omegastrong Cont.Spit (on a huge cd) without its own unique feature (stolen alacrity and alacrity itself is very week) > > > > > > > > It's more that because chrono can double up on anything then anything it can double up on has to be garbage to not make Chrono insanely strong. Remember Phantasm Chrono? All those phantasms were OK without Chrono but because of Chrono phantasma every phantasm it used is poo. > > > > > > > > So yes, I'd rather Chrono be unusable if the rest of the class and other elite specs (we know another is coming) can actually have decent utility skills. > > > > > > > > Edit: However my preferred choice is to remove the ability to double up and boost alacrity gains for Chrono. This provides CDR without running a foul of doubling up. > > > > Chrono Phantasma could give you alacrity for every phantasm you summon. > > > > Continuum Split could give you alacrity based on number of clones shattered. > > > > > > I think I have said it before but you simply overrate continuum split. It is not really much different from having a different form (shroud, rampage, CA), but instead of getting different skills you get to use your regular skills. > > > > It is because contrary to having different form, skills from forms have differents traits synergy than normal skills. > > Mean if you take a on skills activation skill, it's 2 times more efficient if you double it while with shroud you either take a normal skill activation or a on shroud skill activation. > > Like @"bravan.3876" explained better than my bad english. > > So yeah CS should be removed at least for core ulti who are garbage and were balanced with CS in mind. > > > > > > > > > > Let's do a hypothetical. Take core Mesmer and replace distortion with CS, and do not allow CS to reset elites (no other changes). Would you take this over core? If yes, increase cooldown of CS by 10 seconds. Would you still take it over core? Increase cooldown of CS by 10 seconds. And so on. At what point do you think the tradeoff of getting CS but losing distortion would not be worth doing? Would you take chrono in PvP currently ? Mean taking one of the main reason why chrono is dead will ofc not make me taking it on core. Because no matter how much you can double skills if you die before doing anything. Now just ask you the question : - When is the last time you use time warp or moa on core mes in PvP ? MI is taken by default because it has the lowest CD and sometimes master of manipulation is taken, that's all. Moa and TW were used only when having 90 sec CD thanks to CS. - When is the last time you use phantasmal defender and Phantasmal disenchanter on core mes in PvP ? They were nerfed to death thanks to chrono ability to double spam them during the rework chrono hype. While they were barely used in core. Mean it's no that hard to find skills that are bad in core, currently dead or were balanced for the sake of CS. (SoIn, BD double spam, most on illusions procs traits are other examples.) So even if in a perfect world they can on the paper find a balanced counter part with ajusting numbers (on CS or stats malus.), they will have to think about it in **every** changes they will make on mesmers : "is that change is right with the current counterpart numbers". Every patch. Which why I say it's hell to balance ad should be removed because as long as they haven't the time and money to do this, we will always end up with plethora of unused things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortrialus.3062 Posted May 6, 2020 Share Posted May 6, 2020 > @"Tayga.3192" said: > I hate having to bump my own thread up, but I want Anet to see this. Sorry, but you're wasting your time. During a TeaTime CMC popped into Twitch chat and mentioned that the main plan for PvP mesmer across the board is for it to be like necromancer minions in that they are a thing you can run if you really want but they're not supposed to good in a way that incentivizes them being widely run like a normal profession like before. The current state of Chronomancer isn't an accident or oversight, it's part of their philosophy. Mesmer and Mirage are on their way there. He also mentioned they are planning on nerfing the duration of Portal Entre down to 15 seconds and the cooldown on Signet of Illusions up to 300 seconds. Both those changes are currently in the pipeline but he wasn't sure when they'd go live. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quadox.7834 Posted May 6, 2020 Share Posted May 6, 2020 > @"viquing.8254" said: > > @"Quadox.7834" said: > > > @"viquing.8254" said: > > > @"Tayga.3192" : > > > It's not a surprise but I'm on the side to going more into a no IP spec with other substitute. > > > I like seize the moment suggestion. > > > About core changes, even if there are dead traits in the list, I'm more on @"Dadnir.5038" view whe he said : > > > > You don't improve an elite spec by making core profession change. All of those impact the profession as a whole and are potential balance hazard. > > > About retal on phantasm, well, @"Pyroatheist.9031" immortal build come back ? > > > They probably should take more look into wells. > > > Mean if it's supposed to be teamfight spec or utility spec : wells should be impact full, shatter should be realiable aoe effects and illusions should not die in one auto as well. > > > > > > @"bravan.3876" : > > > On a side note, It's lovely how you jump on litteraly EVERY mesmers post while rarely posting on other class. > > > Mean vast majority of your replies are on mesmers asking for more "mind rework" with your usual ego tendency who should improve the ceil of the class. > > > But ofc it's not at all a crusade on mesmer, as you said you want to rework all classes (but only by destroying mesmers.), I'm just paranoid... > > > > > > > @"Quadox.7834" said: > > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > > @"Odik.4587" said: > > > > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > > Wait... because you think anything casted twice is beyond busted... chronomancer should be unplayble garbage? (Because they will never give up on it) > > > > > > You know how does it feel? Probably the same if holo forge would had 90s cd, thats how I see chronomancer since its release. Chronomancer always been a core mesmer with this omegastrong Cont.Spit (on a huge cd) without its own unique feature (stolen alacrity and alacrity itself is very week) > > > > > > > > > > It's more that because chrono can double up on anything then anything it can double up on has to be garbage to not make Chrono insanely strong. Remember Phantasm Chrono? All those phantasms were OK without Chrono but because of Chrono phantasma every phantasm it used is poo. > > > > > > > > > > So yes, I'd rather Chrono be unusable if the rest of the class and other elite specs (we know another is coming) can actually have decent utility skills. > > > > > > > > > > Edit: However my preferred choice is to remove the ability to double up and boost alacrity gains for Chrono. This provides CDR without running a foul of doubling up. > > > > > Chrono Phantasma could give you alacrity for every phantasm you summon. > > > > > Continuum Split could give you alacrity based on number of clones shattered. > > > > > > > > I think I have said it before but you simply overrate continuum split. It is not really much different from having a different form (shroud, rampage, CA), but instead of getting different skills you get to use your regular skills. > > > > > > It is because contrary to having different form, skills from forms have differents traits synergy than normal skills. > > > Mean if you take a on skills activation skill, it's 2 times more efficient if you double it while with shroud you either take a normal skill activation or a on shroud skill activation. > > > Like @"bravan.3876" explained better than my bad english. > > > So yeah CS should be removed at least for core ulti who are garbage and were balanced with CS in mind. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Let's do a hypothetical. Take core Mesmer and replace distortion with CS, and do not allow CS to reset elites (no other changes). Would you take this over core? If yes, increase cooldown of CS by 10 seconds. Would you still take it over core? Increase cooldown of CS by 10 seconds. And so on. At what point do you think the tradeoff of getting CS but losing distortion would not be worth doing? > > Would you take chrono in PvP currently ? > Mean taking one of the main reason why chrono is dead will ofc not make me taking it on core. Because no matter how much you can double skills if you die before doing anything. > > Now just ask you the question : > - When is the last time you use time warp or moa on core mes in PvP ? MI is taken by default because it has the lowest CD and sometimes master of manipulation is taken, that's all. Moa and TW were used only when having 90 sec CD thanks to CS. > - When is the last time you use phantasmal defender and Phantasmal disenchanter on core mes in PvP ? They were nerfed to death thanks to chrono ability to double spam them during the rework chrono hype. While they were barely used in core. > > Mean it's no that hard to find skills that are bad in core, currently dead or were balanced for the sake of CS. (SoIn, BD double spam, most on illusions procs traits are other examples.) > > So even if in a perfect world they can on the paper find a balanced counter part with ajusting numbers (on CS or stats malus.), they will have to think about it in **every** changes they will make on mesmers : "is that change is right with the current counterpart numbers". Every patch. > Which why I say it's hell to balance ad should be removed because as long as they haven't the time and money to do this, we will always end up with plethora of unused things. 1. Answer the hypothetical. 2. I just said to assume that CS wouldn't work on elite skills (which is something I advocated for years ago btw). 3. Time warp has not been nerfed after chrono got added, it has actually been buffed. Same with Mass Invis. The only one that got nerfed was Moa but that was not just because of CS but also because people hated being locked out of their skills for 10 seconds and hated getting instakilled from stealth by the enemy team (used to be a common game open as you recall). Either way, doesn't matter because of point 2. 4. You _always_ have to think about how things interact with eachother, which is hard to do for every class, which is why we get broken stuff constantly despite other classes having no CS. Also, almost everything new is added in the form of elite specs in expansiond, which doesn't affect chrono anyway. 5. First of all BD is not a dead trait, second of all it got nerfed during the reign of mirage (because it was overpowered, it gave essentially perma stability). In fact, you could just as easily stuff that got nerfed to uselessness because of mirage than because of chrono (for example chaotic interruption) which countradicts your point of chrono being especially impossible to balance. 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viquing.8254 Posted May 6, 2020 Share Posted May 6, 2020 > @"Quadox.7834" said: > > @"viquing.8254" said: > > > @"Quadox.7834" said: > > > > @"viquing.8254" said: > > > > @"Tayga.3192" : > > > > It's not a surprise but I'm on the side to going more into a no IP spec with other substitute. > > > > I like seize the moment suggestion. > > > > About core changes, even if there are dead traits in the list, I'm more on @"Dadnir.5038" view whe he said : > > > > > You don't improve an elite spec by making core profession change. All of those impact the profession as a whole and are potential balance hazard. > > > > About retal on phantasm, well, @"Pyroatheist.9031" immortal build come back ? > > > > They probably should take more look into wells. > > > > Mean if it's supposed to be teamfight spec or utility spec : wells should be impact full, shatter should be realiable aoe effects and illusions should not die in one auto as well. > > > > > > > > @"bravan.3876" : > > > > On a side note, It's lovely how you jump on litteraly EVERY mesmers post while rarely posting on other class. > > > > Mean vast majority of your replies are on mesmers asking for more "mind rework" with your usual ego tendency who should improve the ceil of the class. > > > > But ofc it's not at all a crusade on mesmer, as you said you want to rework all classes (but only by destroying mesmers.), I'm just paranoid... > > > > > > > > > @"Quadox.7834" said: > > > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > > > @"Odik.4587" said: > > > > > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > > > Wait... because you think anything casted twice is beyond busted... chronomancer should be unplayble garbage? (Because they will never give up on it) > > > > > > > You know how does it feel? Probably the same if holo forge would had 90s cd, thats how I see chronomancer since its release. Chronomancer always been a core mesmer with this omegastrong Cont.Spit (on a huge cd) without its own unique feature (stolen alacrity and alacrity itself is very week) > > > > > > > > > > > > It's more that because chrono can double up on anything then anything it can double up on has to be garbage to not make Chrono insanely strong. Remember Phantasm Chrono? All those phantasms were OK without Chrono but because of Chrono phantasma every phantasm it used is poo. > > > > > > > > > > > > So yes, I'd rather Chrono be unusable if the rest of the class and other elite specs (we know another is coming) can actually have decent utility skills. > > > > > > > > > > > > Edit: However my preferred choice is to remove the ability to double up and boost alacrity gains for Chrono. This provides CDR without running a foul of doubling up. > > > > > > Chrono Phantasma could give you alacrity for every phantasm you summon. > > > > > > Continuum Split could give you alacrity based on number of clones shattered. > > > > > > > > > > I think I have said it before but you simply overrate continuum split. It is not really much different from having a different form (shroud, rampage, CA), but instead of getting different skills you get to use your regular skills. > > > > > > > > It is because contrary to having different form, skills from forms have differents traits synergy than normal skills. > > > > Mean if you take a on skills activation skill, it's 2 times more efficient if you double it while with shroud you either take a normal skill activation or a on shroud skill activation. > > > > Like @"bravan.3876" explained better than my bad english. > > > > So yeah CS should be removed at least for core ulti who are garbage and were balanced with CS in mind. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Let's do a hypothetical. Take core Mesmer and replace distortion with CS, and do not allow CS to reset elites (no other changes). Would you take this over core? If yes, increase cooldown of CS by 10 seconds. Would you still take it over core? Increase cooldown of CS by 10 seconds. And so on. At what point do you think the tradeoff of getting CS but losing distortion would not be worth doing? > > > > Would you take chrono in PvP currently ? > > Mean taking one of the main reason why chrono is dead will ofc not make me taking it on core. Because no matter how much you can double skills if you die before doing anything. > > > > Now just ask you the question : > > - When is the last time you use time warp or moa on core mes in PvP ? MI is taken by default because it has the lowest CD and sometimes master of manipulation is taken, that's all. Moa and TW were used only when having 90 sec CD thanks to CS. > > - When is the last time you use phantasmal defender and Phantasmal disenchanter on core mes in PvP ? They were nerfed to death thanks to chrono ability to double spam them during the rework chrono hype. While they were barely used in core. > > > > Mean it's no that hard to find skills that are bad in core, currently dead or were balanced for the sake of CS. (SoIn, BD double spam, most on illusions procs traits are other examples.) > > > > So even if in a perfect world they can on the paper find a balanced counter part with ajusting numbers (on CS or stats malus.), they will have to think about it in **every** changes they will make on mesmers : "is that change is right with the current counterpart numbers". Every patch. > > Which why I say it's hell to balance ad should be removed because as long as they haven't the time and money to do this, we will always end up with plethora of unused things. > > 1. Answer the hypothetical. > 2. I just said to assume that CS wouldn't work on elite skills (which is something I advocated for years ago btw). > 3. Time warp has not been nerfed after chrono got added, it has actually been buffed. Same with Mass Invis. The only one that got nerfed was Moa but that was not just because of CS but also because people hated being locked out of their skills for 10 seconds and hated getting instakilled from stealth by the enemy team (used to be a common game open as you recall). Either way, doesn't matter because of point 2. > 4. You _always_ have to think about how things interact with eachother, which is hard to do for every class, which is why we get broken stuff constantly despite other classes having no CS. Also, almost everything new is added in the form of elite specs in expansiond, which doesn't affect chrono anyway. > 5. First of all BD is not a dead trait, second of all it got nerfed during the reign of mirage (because it was overpowered, it gave essentially perma stability). In fact, you could just as easily stuff that got nerfed to uselessness because of mirage than because of chrono (for example chaotic interruption) which countradicts your point of chrono being especially impossible to balance. BD stab was gut thanks to last chrono tank perma stab + phantasm spam hype which was op on chrono. Time warp rework were mainly about PvE, you barely see it in PvP and even less if not on chrono 90 sec. They nerfed Moa and CS only on the base that Moa is on a 90 sec thanks to CS. Nobody used Moa on 180 CD. There were way more core nerf and rework thanks to chrono than core nerf thanks to mirage. General balance is around how synergy will be created and will it be op or not, not about if a counterpart is enough on doubling skills or not. If CS didn't work on elite then it's way more easy to balance even if I don't think chrono can be viable with no distortion or other way to sustain as counterpart. But it's more easy to figure keep CS if elite aren't reseted yeah. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tayga.3192 Posted May 6, 2020 Author Share Posted May 6, 2020 Edit: aww you got me > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > Sorry, but you're wasting your time. During a TeaTime CMC popped into Twitch chat and mentioned that the main plan for PvP mesmer across the board is for it to be like necromancer minions in that they are a thing you can run if you really want but they're not supposed to good in a way that incentivizes them being widely run like a normal profession like before. So it's like, clones will be optional? This seems okayish if they do it properly (I highly doubt). > The current state of Chronomancer isn't an accident or oversight, it's part of their philosophy. Mesmer and Mirage are on their way there. He also mentioned they are planning on nerfing the duration of Portal Entre down to 15 seconds and the cooldown on Signet of Illusions up to 300 seconds. Both those changes are currently in the pipeline but he wasn't sure when they'd go live. If they are nerfing SoI they sure need to buff Maim the Disillusioned to 3 torment and Restorative Illusions to 2k lmao. I play a build that relies on shatters for sustain and damage, SoI is my strongest utility skill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allarius.5670 Posted May 6, 2020 Share Posted May 6, 2020 > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > @"Tayga.3192" said: > > I hate having to bump my own thread up, but I want Anet to see this. > > Sorry, but you're wasting your time. During a TeaTime CMC popped into Twitch chat and mentioned that the main plan for PvP mesmer across the board is for it to be like necromancer minions in that they are a thing you can run if you really want but they're not supposed to good in a way that incentivizes them being widely run like a normal profession like before. The current state of Chronomancer isn't an accident or oversight, it's part of their philosophy. Mesmer and Mirage are on their way there. He also mentioned they are planning on nerfing the duration of Portal Entre down to 15 seconds and the cooldown on Signet of Illusions up to 300 seconds. Both those changes are currently in the pipeline but he wasn't sure when they'd go live. Do you remember which one? I'd like to check it out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonidrex.5649 Posted May 6, 2020 Share Posted May 6, 2020 > @"Allarius.5670" said: > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > @"Tayga.3192" said: > > > I hate having to bump my own thread up, but I want Anet to see this. > > > > Sorry, but you're wasting your time. During a TeaTime CMC popped into Twitch chat and mentioned that the main plan for PvP mesmer across the board is for it to be like necromancer minions in that they are a thing you can run if you really want but they're not supposed to good in a way that incentivizes them being widely run like a normal profession like before. The current state of Chronomancer isn't an accident or oversight, it's part of their philosophy. Mesmer and Mirage are on their way there. He also mentioned they are planning on nerfing the duration of Portal Entre down to 15 seconds and the cooldown on Signet of Illusions up to 300 seconds. Both those changes are currently in the pipeline but he wasn't sure when they'd go live. > > Do you remember which one? I'd like to check it out. bro, its sarcams edit apparently its not? mesmer players on suicide watch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gryxis.6950 Posted May 6, 2020 Share Posted May 6, 2020 > @"Tayga.3192" said: > > [Protected Phantasms](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Protected_Phantasms): There are two suggestions (choose-one) for this trait. > 1) (My recommendation) Summoned phantasms have 20% more health and spawn with 6 seconds of Retaliation. > 2) Summoned phantasms spawn with 5 seconds of Protection. Nooo don't change protected phantasms i need it for my phantasm build :( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quadox.7834 Posted May 6, 2020 Share Posted May 6, 2020 > @"viquing.8254" said: > > @"Quadox.7834" said: > > > @"viquing.8254" said: > > > > @"Quadox.7834" said: > > > > > @"viquing.8254" said: > > > > > @"Tayga.3192" : > > > > > It's not a surprise but I'm on the side to going more into a no IP spec with other substitute. > > > > > I like seize the moment suggestion. > > > > > About core changes, even if there are dead traits in the list, I'm more on @"Dadnir.5038" view whe he said : > > > > > > You don't improve an elite spec by making core profession change. All of those impact the profession as a whole and are potential balance hazard. > > > > > About retal on phantasm, well, @"Pyroatheist.9031" immortal build come back ? > > > > > They probably should take more look into wells. > > > > > Mean if it's supposed to be teamfight spec or utility spec : wells should be impact full, shatter should be realiable aoe effects and illusions should not die in one auto as well. > > > > > > > > > > @"bravan.3876" : > > > > > On a side note, It's lovely how you jump on litteraly EVERY mesmers post while rarely posting on other class. > > > > > Mean vast majority of your replies are on mesmers asking for more "mind rework" with your usual ego tendency who should improve the ceil of the class. > > > > > But ofc it's not at all a crusade on mesmer, as you said you want to rework all classes (but only by destroying mesmers.), I'm just paranoid... > > > > > > > > > > > @"Quadox.7834" said: > > > > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > > > > @"Odik.4587" said: > > > > > > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > > > > Wait... because you think anything casted twice is beyond busted... chronomancer should be unplayble garbage? (Because they will never give up on it) > > > > > > > > You know how does it feel? Probably the same if holo forge would had 90s cd, thats how I see chronomancer since its release. Chronomancer always been a core mesmer with this omegastrong Cont.Spit (on a huge cd) without its own unique feature (stolen alacrity and alacrity itself is very week) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's more that because chrono can double up on anything then anything it can double up on has to be garbage to not make Chrono insanely strong. Remember Phantasm Chrono? All those phantasms were OK without Chrono but because of Chrono phantasma every phantasm it used is poo. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So yes, I'd rather Chrono be unusable if the rest of the class and other elite specs (we know another is coming) can actually have decent utility skills. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Edit: However my preferred choice is to remove the ability to double up and boost alacrity gains for Chrono. This provides CDR without running a foul of doubling up. > > > > > > > Chrono Phantasma could give you alacrity for every phantasm you summon. > > > > > > > Continuum Split could give you alacrity based on number of clones shattered. > > > > > > > > > > > > I think I have said it before but you simply overrate continuum split. It is not really much different from having a different form (shroud, rampage, CA), but instead of getting different skills you get to use your regular skills. > > > > > > > > > > It is because contrary to having different form, skills from forms have differents traits synergy than normal skills. > > > > > Mean if you take a on skills activation skill, it's 2 times more efficient if you double it while with shroud you either take a normal skill activation or a on shroud skill activation. > > > > > Like @"bravan.3876" explained better than my bad english. > > > > > So yeah CS should be removed at least for core ulti who are garbage and were balanced with CS in mind. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Let's do a hypothetical. Take core Mesmer and replace distortion with CS, and do not allow CS to reset elites (no other changes). Would you take this over core? If yes, increase cooldown of CS by 10 seconds. Would you still take it over core? Increase cooldown of CS by 10 seconds. And so on. At what point do you think the tradeoff of getting CS but losing distortion would not be worth doing? > > > > > > Would you take chrono in PvP currently ? > > > Mean taking one of the main reason why chrono is dead will ofc not make me taking it on core. Because no matter how much you can double skills if you die before doing anything. > > > > > > Now just ask you the question : > > > - When is the last time you use time warp or moa on core mes in PvP ? MI is taken by default because it has the lowest CD and sometimes master of manipulation is taken, that's all. Moa and TW were used only when having 90 sec CD thanks to CS. > > > - When is the last time you use phantasmal defender and Phantasmal disenchanter on core mes in PvP ? They were nerfed to death thanks to chrono ability to double spam them during the rework chrono hype. While they were barely used in core. > > > > > > Mean it's no that hard to find skills that are bad in core, currently dead or were balanced for the sake of CS. (SoIn, BD double spam, most on illusions procs traits are other examples.) > > > > > > So even if in a perfect world they can on the paper find a balanced counter part with ajusting numbers (on CS or stats malus.), they will have to think about it in **every** changes they will make on mesmers : "is that change is right with the current counterpart numbers". Every patch. > > > Which why I say it's hell to balance ad should be removed because as long as they haven't the time and money to do this, we will always end up with plethora of unused things. > > > > 1. Answer the hypothetical. > > 2. I just said to assume that CS wouldn't work on elite skills (which is something I advocated for years ago btw). > > 3. Time warp has not been nerfed after chrono got added, it has actually been buffed. Same with Mass Invis. The only one that got nerfed was Moa but that was not just because of CS but also because people hated being locked out of their skills for 10 seconds and hated getting instakilled from stealth by the enemy team (used to be a common game open as you recall). Either way, doesn't matter because of point 2. > > 4. You _always_ have to think about how things interact with eachother, which is hard to do for every class, which is why we get broken stuff constantly despite other classes having no CS. Also, almost everything new is added in the form of elite specs in expansiond, which doesn't affect chrono anyway. > > 5. First of all BD is not a dead trait, second of all it got nerfed during the reign of mirage (because it was overpowered, it gave essentially perma stability). In fact, you could just as easily stuff that got nerfed to uselessness because of mirage than because of chrono (for example chaotic interruption) which countradicts your point of chrono being especially impossible to balance. > > BD stab was gut thanks to last chrono tank perma stab + phantasm spam hype which was op on chrono. You are wrong, BD was used by all chaos IH mirages during the time it was disgustingly op, after it got nerfed everyone swapped to CI which people then realized was also cancer - which then also got ~~nerfed~~ removed because of Mirage. > Time warp rework were mainly about PvE, you barely see it in PvP and even less if not on chrono 90 sec. Oh of course I know that TW isn't used in PvP (aside from 2012), all I'm saying is that your point of "elites got nerfed cuz of chrono" _only_ applies to moa. > They nerfed Moa and CS only on the base that Moa is on a 90 sec thanks to CS. Nobody used Moa on 180 CD. No, Moa was used for most of the game's existance before Jaunt (because Jaunt is both very strong and much lower risk). In WTS beijing, cologne, and boston (qualifiers), Mesmers used Moa. > There were way more core nerf and rework thanks to chrono than core nerf thanks to mirage. > General balance is around how synergy will be created and will it be op or not, not about if a counterpart is enough on doubling skills or not. > > If CS didn't work on elite then it's way more easy to balance even if I don't think chrono can be viable with no distortion or other way to sustain as counterpart. CS is still sustain, remember it resets your damage taken. Doesn't protect against CC and such though. > But it's more easy to figure keep CS if elite aren't reseted yeah. > Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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