[Suggestion] Increase balance patch frequency

[neilug hyuga.5634]

I know balance is **hard** (I am working in the game industry too, so I understand).

 

My post is not to complain, but to show that it can hurts the game, by making players leaving the game for diverses reasons.

 

In **MMORPG**, there is **RPG**. A good RPG should give **diversity**, by its own system of building the character. And this is what is mainly fun in a RPG.

 

How many skills and traits in GW2 are now useless and ineffective?

 

Of course it's **hard** to make everything works perfectly, but it should definitively the **long term goal of a balance team** (even if it is not possible)!

 

In a game you love, you want to give as much possibilities you want to your player base. And you would care of their feedback.

 

If you think they are wrong, then you argue with the balance team, with one or more messages. Or course there will always be haters but, don't listen to them.

 

> "then don't be a meta slave and go play what you want"

 

It is **not fun** to play something that you know is **ineffective**. I am not an hardcore gamer, but I am not stupid, and I still think.

 

I think also overall only 4 balance patch per year is not good enough for GW2. There should have more. I really like the patching of League of Legends for example that get new patch every ~2/3weeks.

 

Balance fixes problems that are within the game. Balance brings new gameplay by rework. Balance tries to make everything in a same equality, fixing Over Powered stuff.

 

 

**TLDR & conclusion :**

 

By ignoring an effective balance, you will bring **lassitude**, **anger**, **no-fun** to a part of the players (of course, not everyone will be affected).

 

Having a good balance every 2 patchs for example might bring more than you can think players into the game.

[Einlanzer.1627]

It isn't, which is why literally every other MMO ever makes balance adjustments roughly every two weeks. It amazes me that Anet's leadership thinks that having 3 or 4 a year is anywhere near adequate, and that any players at all defend this (I liken it to a form of Stockholm Syndrome). It's also asinine how small in scope the changes are after 3-4 months of observation. It's hard to have much trust in the management of the class team at this point.

 

The reason it's a problem is that balance is iterative, so releasing balance patches slowly means you're iterating slowly, which is going to frustrate a lot more players than it pleases, and even worse than that it just leads to stale gameplay. Balance patches bring a necessary level of hype and excitement to the game. Slow balance iteration also increases the odds that something that needs attention is left alone for stupidly long periods of time. When balance changes are also small in scale, it just becomes ridiculous.

 

Anet needs to do whatever it takes to change their system here. Balance patches are needed at least every month, if not every two weeks.

[SmirkDog.3160]

I think when it comes to the precious ~meta~ it's important to play what you want and **what works for you**, rather than only choosing what the Pros tell you to play. You assume that playing what you want is guaranteed to be ineffective compared to the meta. I don't even know what the meta is, I just picked stats, traits, etc. that I think work well for my playstyle, and I do great.

 

I think you need to adjust your perspective.

[neilug hyuga.5634]

@SmirkDog

 

I totally agree with you. And I do the same. But my point was I won't be picking random traits.

 

For example, I play necro. I really like the Scourge, but the new "enter in shroud effect" is now 20 seconds of cooldown, against 10seconds before.

So all traits that have effect "entering in shroud do X" are mathematically weaker, in long fights.

 

So, it's unlikely I will use thoses traits.

 

If a trait or skill itself now is un effective, I won't use it just as the same way.

[Feanor.2358]

Keep in mind the requirements in the 3 game modes are quite different. What's great for one can be trash in another.

[Ojimaru.8970]

I think it's a fallacy to compare Guild Wars 2 with League of Legends. While ArenaNet did intend for their PvP to be the next big esports, following the booming popularity of League and DotA, it is clear that it is not a core focus of the company. Riot Games has a very consistent and high-frequency patch cycle because the entire focus of the game is competitive player-versus-player gameplay, where balance matters far more than a PVE game, or even on that has their fingers in so many pies.

 

As to your assertion that long delays between balance patches are bad for the game, what evidence do you have that it has affected Guild Wars 2? The patch cycle has largely been the same for the last five years, and yet boasts having over 11 million players worldwide (["The Path to the Desert, in Numbers," 2017](https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/the-path-to-the-desert-in-numbers/)), and grossing nearly $12 million in sales in Q2 of 2017 (prior to PoF launch) ([NCSoft, 2017](http://global.ncsoft.com/global/ir/earnings.aspx)). Are these signs of a #dedgame?

[TexZero.7910]

> @Ojimaru.8970 said:

> As to your assertion that long delays between balance patches are bad for the game, what evidence do you have that it has affected Guild Wars 2? The patch cycle has largely been the same for the last five years, and yet boasts having over 11 million players worldwide (["The Path to the Desert, in Numbers," 2017](https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/the-path-to-the-desert-in-numbers/)), and grossing nearly $12 million in sales in Q2 of 2017 (prior to PoF launch) ([NCSoft, 2017](http://global.ncsoft.com/global/ir/earnings.aspx)). Are these signs of a #dedgame?

 

This just isnt true. The patch cycle has not been largely the same for the past five years. In fact for the first two we'd have patches every two weeks and have smaller balance patches alongside them. Now as of the last 3 years we've moved to a once a quarter balance change system which is largely leading to gameplay stagnation across all modes. To put this into numbers the first 2 years roughly contained 52 balance patches, while the past 3 years have contained 12.

 

The reason Anet thinks this is acceptable is because they've started gating the idea of balance behind PvP seasons and largely adjusting around those windows instead of doing the per-mode balance when and where its required.

[Ayrilana.1396]

It may hurt the WvW and PvP game modes but it'll have little impact on PvE where the majority of the player base reside. Yes, there's raids but what percentage of the player base actually do them on a consistent enough basis for it to matter?

[Blodeuyn.2751]

We already have lassitude, anger, and no fun in wvw. The lack of timely balance updates for this game mode has caused many problems. For example, the community voiced their concerns for _ages_ about how broken ghost thief was, but nothing was done until a ghost thief soloed a world boss. I'm not even going to get into the issues with condi. So yes, please release balance patches more frequently.

[Oldirtbeard.9834]

> @Ayrilana.1396 said:

> It may hurt the WvW and PvP game modes but it'll have little impact on PvE where the majority of the player base reside. Yes, there's raids but what percentage of the player base actually do them on a consistent enough basis for it to matter?

 

Cool story bro, take any Power Reapers into your static Raid Group recently, or ever?

[Ayrilana.1396]

> @Oldirtbeard.9834 said:

> > @Ayrilana.1396 said:

> > It may hurt the WvW and PvP game modes but it'll have little impact on PvE where the majority of the player base reside. Yes, there's raids but what percentage of the player base actually do them on a consistent enough basis for it to matter?

>

> Cool story bro, take any Power Reapers into your static Raid Group recently, or ever?

 

As I suggested in the last part of my post that you quoted, the percentage of players that do raids is fairly small for imbalances to matter. Any perceived imbalances by those players are due to misconceptions that only the utmost optimal builds will work when that's very untrue.

[ThenCameThree.4163]

> @"neilug hyuga.5634" said:

> I know balance is **hard** (I am working in the game industry too, so I understand).

>

> My post is not to complain, but to show that it can hurts the game, by making players leaving the game for diverses reasons.

>

> In **MMORPG**, there is **RPG**. A good RPG should give **diversity**, by its own system of building the character. And this is what is mainly fun in a RPG.

>

> How many skills and traits in GW2 are now useless and ineffective?

>

> Of course it's **hard** to make everything works perfectly, but it should definitively the **long term goal of a balance team** (even if it is not possible)!

>

> In a game you love, you want to give as much possibilities you want to your player base. And you would care of their feedback.

>

> If you think they are wrong, then you argue with the balance team, with one or more messages. Or course there will always be haters but, don't listen to them.

>

> > "then don't be a meta slave and go play what you want"

>

> It is **not fun** to play something that you know is **ineffective**. I am not an hardcore gamer, but I am not stupid, and I still think.

>

> I think also overall only 4 balance patch per year is not good enough for GW2. There should have more. I really like the patching of League of Legends for example that get new patch every ~2/3weeks.

>

> Balance fixes problems that are within the game. Balance brings new gameplay by rework. Balance tries to make everything in a same equality, fixing Over Powered stuff.

>

>

> **TLDR & conclusion :**

>

> By ignoring an effective balance, you will bring **lassitude**, **anger**, **no-fun** to a part of the players (of course, not everyone will be affected).

>

> Having a good balance every 2 patchs for example might bring more than you can think players into the game.

 

Im going to start off by saying i dont think your really in the game industry, because based on the time given from the release of POF no programming team would push such a heavy balance patch without a forum of testing. Second, you compared GW2 to LOL you have to be kidding? LOL characters have 4 moves and the rest of problems come from a broken item(aka META) , which they make professional players play for like month with the broken Item / META. For the record right now, LOL is in the Ardent Censer META. Which all champions that use the item are high priority. If you Nerf the item then high priority changes, but then just wait a couple days then the next broken item arises and with that comes the META, and champions that can abuse the item. So actually since league does balance patches every 3 weeks, means that your favorite champion will only be viable for 3 weeks if you really care about rank, and is never balanced.

 

So now back to GW2, whats wrong with playing something **ineffective** if your not competing for ranked sPvP, Number One WVW server, or some raid timing. Outside of that balance shouldn't be a concern to people until they cant complete content. If you think the that 9 classes, with 3 different specs counting core, 7 traits for each class, and no appropriate roles is going to be balanced for competing its definitely not going to happen.

 

If you look back at everything has any game ever been balanced? Even in fighting games with predefined kits on characters still have tier list, and for the LOL example if you been running balance updates every 3 weeks for 6yrs is it balanced?

 

*cough* Add a condi resist into toughness or make it its own stat

 

 

[Mea.5491]

> @SmirkDog.3160 said:

> I think when it comes to the precious ~meta~ it's important to play what you want and **what works for you**, rather than only choosing what the Pros tell you to play. You assume that playing what you want is guaranteed to be ineffective compared to the meta. I don't even know what the meta is, I just picked stats, traits, etc. that I think work well for my playstyle, and I do great.

>

> I think you need to adjust your perspective.

 

So true! Kitten the meta, I'm a Celestial Engineer and loving it! :)

[Esquilax.3491]

Yeah from my experience probably 50% of utility skills on any given class are useless and will never be used by a sane player.

 

I think they gave up, that's why for example the Rev doesn't get utilities, and new specs only get one for each slot.

 

The trait system is also kinda wierd because on the exterior it looks like it's supposed to offer choice, and it does however the choice is that there is only one correct choice for the game mode you are playing, like raiding, pvp etc. Some of these are not so obvious but with some tiers it's blindingly obvious that was the devs intention. So there is not actually a choice, it's like a illusion.

[Obtena.7952]

> @Ayrilana.1396 said:

> > @Oldirtbeard.9834 said:

> > > @Ayrilana.1396 said:

> > > It may hurt the WvW and PvP game modes but it'll have little impact on PvE where the majority of the player base reside. Yes, there's raids but what percentage of the player base actually do them on a consistent enough basis for it to matter?

> >

> > Cool story bro, take any Power Reapers into your static Raid Group recently, or ever?

>

> As I suggested in the last part of my post that you quoted, the percentage of players that do raids is fairly small for imbalances to matter. Any perceived imbalances by those players are due to misconceptions that only the utmost optimal builds will work when that's very untrue.

 

This is so very important to acknowledge ... if people were to realize GW2 is a part of a business, then it would be very clear to them what the priorities are and why. I don't understand why so many people refuse to acknowledge the reality of GW2 as a business; apparently holding on to unrealistic ideals and never seeing them fulfilled

is more satisfying than just getting on with playing the game as they desire ... and having fun doing it.

 

I also have to challenge the idea from the OP; while most builds aren't optimal, most are effective, depending on how you define it. For example, I remember metapushers shooting themselves in the foot posting videos of themselves soloing dungeons with the WORST and MOST ineffective builds they could think of ... at the time, that perfectly deonstrated that the builds were actually irrelevant to success in the game and player skill and game knowledge could make up for ANY deficiency most builds had to offer. They effectively showed how wrong their whole argument for pushing meta actually was by doing this.

[Lyger.5429]

Seriously, balance is the glue that holds any good game together. Anet needs to dedicate more resources towards it rather than having like 3 guys balance the entire game.

[KrHome.1920]

> @"neilug hyuga.5634" said:

> For example, I play necro. I really like the Scourge, but the new "enter in shroud effect" is now 20 seconds of cooldown, against 10seconds before.

> So all traits that have effect "entering in shroud do X" are mathematically weaker, in long fights.

>

> So, it's unlikely I will use thoses traits.

>

> If a trait or skill itself now is un effective, I won't use it just as the same way.

These things could be compensated by other things. Scourge has a different mechanic than Reaper.

 

Depending on a lot of stuff the shroud enter effects could still be stronger on a 20 second Scourge F5 than on a 10 second Reaper F1. It's not as trivial as you say.

 

Example: Scourge has corruptions on every utility skill and every F-skill deals AOE direct damage. He does not need Spiteful Spirit on a 10 second cooldown to be effective at corrupting boons and bursting with instant direct damage AOEs.

 

[musu.9205]

> @Ayrilana.1396 said:

> It may hurt the WvW and PvP game modes but it'll have little impact on PvE where the majority of the player base reside. Yes, there's raids but what percentage of the player base actually do them on a consistent enough basis for it to matter?

 

you basically said : we are dicks we dont care other players even they paid as much as we did but let them suffer for no good reasons lol.

 

how we are going to introduce class to new players ?

you will be fine as long as you dont touch pvp , raid , fractal , wvw , a large portion of game .

and you will still suffer as mesmer in open world . as ranger 90% of your pet will still barely hit target .

or you will be fine with necro , yeah its meme class for pve , but you will be fine .

come on .

how that's possible good things to hear for new players ?

 

by your logic , anet should delete content in order to gain more players ?

 

 

[musu.9205]

> @KrHome.1920 said:

> > @"neilug hyuga.5634" said:

> > For example, I play necro. I really like the Scourge, but the new "enter in shroud effect" is now 20 seconds of cooldown, against 10seconds before.

> > So all traits that have effect "entering in shroud do X" are mathematically weaker, in long fights.

> >

> > So, it's unlikely I will use thoses traits.

> >

> > If a trait or skill itself now is un effective, I won't use it just as the same way.

> These things could be compensated by other things. Scourge has a different mechanic than Reaper.

>

> Depending on a lot of stuff the shroud enter effects could still be stronger on a 20 second Scourge F5 than on a 10 second Reaper F1. It's not as trivial as you say.

>

> Example: Scourge has corruptions on every utility skill and every F-skill deals AOE direct damage. He does not need Spiteful Spirit on a 10 second cooldown to be effective at corrupting boons and bursting with instant direct damage AOEs.

>

 

we all know power reaper buff : 5 axe dmg buff . for past 2 years they failed to give reaper a proper power build . why will they change now ?

remember , hot had more dev working on elite spec, had more communication on player feedback .

we got none of those after almost a month from pof launch .

instead necro got "heavy support "nonsense (you can argue its strong support in wvw only in wvw anyway , but the thread was pretty much talking about pve . such reason is just crap . )

 

[Panda.1967]

Indeed... we do need more frequent balance patches, at least for PvE. While there are still a decent number of viable builds across most classes, there are also a significant number of skills and traits that are almost useless, and even a few that are actually useless (in PvE).

 

One way that they can tackle the balance issues is to work one class at a time, doing PvE only balance patches every 2 weeks, and then every quarter doing a PvP patch, bringing the recent PvE changes over to PvP (adjusting for PvP as needed).

 

A few things that have been at the top of the list for the community for years:

* Engineer Turrets - making them functional and viable options. Returning manual Overloads or adding Overload on interval.

* Mesmer Illusions - splitting Phantasms and Clones, leaving only Clones as "Illusions" and making Phantasms into temporary summons. Illusions not shattering on target death. etc...

* Elementalist Traits - restructuring Elementalist specs to match the structure of other class specs, every spec should have a fair mix of Offensive, Defensive, Support, and Utility traits.

* Engineer Kits & Weapons - reducing the over reliance on kits and reworking weapons to be more preferential. Changes such as switching Pistol skills 3 & 4 around.

* Power Necro - resolving it's non-existant status ever since Deathly Chill went Condi.

 

Perhaps they should start with these things and go on from there.

[drunkenpilot.9837]

> @musu.9205 said:

> > @Ayrilana.1396 said:

> > It may hurt the WvW and PvP game modes but it'll have little impact on PvE where the majority of the player base reside. Yes, there's raids but what percentage of the player base actually do them on a consistent enough basis for it to matter?

>

> you basically said : we are kitten we dont care other players even they paid as much as we did but let them suffer for no good reasons lol.

>

> how we are going to introduce class to new players ?

> you will be fine as long as you dont touch pvp , raid , fractal , wvw , a large portion of game .

> and you will still suffer as mesmer in open world . as ranger 90% of your pet will still barely hit target .

> or you will be fine with necro , yeah its meme class for pve , but you will be fine .

> come on .

> how that's possible good things to hear for new players ?

>

> by your logic , anet should delete content in order to gain more players ?

>

>

 

I understand the points you're trying to make but felt the need to respond to your mesmer criticism. What do you mean by "you will still suffer as mesmer in open world"? My main character is a chrono mesmer and I've used him to complete just about all of the open world PvE content that's available (aside from the last two maps in PoF as I've been taking my time with it). I have very few issues as a mesmer and in fact as chrono, you have more of an ability to control fights than some other classes simply based on the amount of CC skills you have. My mesmer is also my fractal character and I have very few issues doing fractals, too. I don't use my mesmer for PvP as I've always run guard primarily when doing PvP, but with the current necro nonsense happening in that realm of the game I've stopped playing PvP entirely until the next balance patch.

 

If you're talking about PvP or WvW specifically, then I'd say this thread would have a lot of valid things to criticize, but balance patches aren't needed nearly as much for PvE as they are for competitive areas like PvP or WvW. I wholehearted agree with biweekly or monthly balance patches for PvP. However, to say that PvE content is only doable as a necro is totally off-base. My friend alternates between playing thief main and ranger main and he also has no issues with either class in PvE.

[Vasdamas Anklast.1607]

The balance issues have started long ago and it started hitting the fan only recently. I'd go as far as say GW2 tops one of the most unbalanced MMOs because I once spoke to my guildmate in TSW and they knew condi-mesmer is most cancerous and imbalanced (pre pof) class out there for roaming without even playing GW2 directly. I had a bitter laughter when I heard that.

 

[Panda.1967]

> @drunkenpilot.9837 said:

> > @musu.9205 said:

> > > @Ayrilana.1396 said:

> > > It may hurt the WvW and PvP game modes but it'll have little impact on PvE where the majority of the player base reside. Yes, there's raids but what percentage of the player base actually do them on a consistent enough basis for it to matter?

> >

> > you basically said : we are kitten we dont care other players even they paid as much as we did but let them suffer for no good reasons lol.

> >

> > how we are going to introduce class to new players ?

> > you will be fine as long as you dont touch pvp , raid , fractal , wvw , a large portion of game .

> > and you will still suffer as mesmer in open world . as ranger 90% of your pet will still barely hit target .

> > or you will be fine with necro , yeah its meme class for pve , but you will be fine .

> > come on .

> > how that's possible good things to hear for new players ?

> >

> > by your logic , anet should delete content in order to gain more players ?

> >

> >

>

> I understand the points you're trying to make but felt the need to respond to your mesmer criticism. What do you mean by "you will still suffer as mesmer in open world"? My main character is a chrono mesmer and I've used him to complete just about all of the open world PvE content that's available (aside from the last two maps in PoF as I've been taking my time with it). I have very few issues as a mesmer and in fact as chrono, you have more of an ability to control fights than some other classes simply based on the amount of CC skills you have. My mesmer is also my fractal character and I have very few issues doing fractals, too. I don't use my mesmer for PvP as I've always run guard primarily when doing PvP, but with the current necro nonsense happening in that realm of the game I've stopped playing PvP entirely until the next balance patch.

>

> If you're talking about PvP or WvW specifically, then I'd say this thread would have a lot of valid things to criticize, but balance patches aren't needed nearly as much for PvE as they are for competitive areas like PvP or WvW. I wholehearted agree with biweekly or monthly balance patches for PvP. However, to say that PvE content is only doable as a necro is totally off-base. My friend alternates between playing thief main and ranger main and he also has no issues with either class in PvE.

 

PvE absolutely needs balance passes more frequently than once every quarter... especially since we already don't even get them that often for PvE. PvE gets them about 2x per year as opposed to PvP's 4x. The first quarter's PvP balance goes to PvE 2nd quarter along with a new PvP balance that PvE usually won't see anything from until 4th quarter along with 3rd quarter's PvP balance, and then 4th quarter's PvP balance gets bundled in with 1st quarter of next year's PvP balance for PvE on 2nd quarter, again... It's absurd and quite frankly annoying.

 

Not to mention, there are TONS of skills that have been flat out broken since the game launched that we don't ever see even touched in balance patches because they are simply NEVER USED in PvP or Raiding. Most of the balance patches focus around skills that are in high use, skills with very low usage rarely ever see any updates.

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"neilug hyuga.5634" said:

> How many skills and traits in GW2 are now useless and ineffective?

 

It depends on the game mode. I think if a skill/trait is very good in one game mode and terrible in others it doesn't need to change, it already has a purpose.

Now there are skills that aren't used anywhere and those certainly need a serious look at, like for example Guardian Spirit weapons.

The problem with the balance team is they claim they are doing small iterative balance patches, yet in reality they nerf with a sledgehammer. They know certain abilities are too strong and instead of nerfing only those, they remove entire specs from the game. It hurts even more when they nerf a powerful PVP spec and remove it from PVE too (see every single Revenant build). They should do what they claim they do: iterative balance patches. Make small patches to see the changes and then go from there.

 

This is gonna get worse with more expansions as they add more and more skills to the game, after Path of Fire, Guild Wars 2 now has more skills to click on than Guild Wars 1 (excluding EotN) and with expansion 3 Guild Wars 2 will surpass Guild Wars 1 in the number of skills including all the expansions/campaigns.

 

Their number one goal at this point should be making sure every single elite spec has a purpose to exist. This is far more important that balancing some random under-used traits and skills because we are talking about entire new specs that are useless on all game modes. AT LEAST do this.

[TexZero.7910]

> @maddoctor.2738 said:

> The problem with the balance team is they claim they are doing small iterative balance patches, yet in reality they nerf with a sledgehammer.

 

This i believe is the communities biggest and actually most addressable gripe. When we see changes happen it's less than subtle. An example of this really is MSS, a good bit of its power was taken out (for better or worse) and there's been nothing done to increase the effectiveness of their support or offense to compensate for a bug being removed that made them a competitive option in many modes of play. It would be much nicer to see net neutral changes where possible or smaller systems tweaks than outright removal, which has happened previously. (note i mean removal by effectively going overboard on changes).