Kuma.1503 Posted February 11, 2021 Share Posted February 11, 2021 The forums: "That does too much damage. .9 is too much. Nerf it so it doesn't do so much damage" Also the fourms: "Wtf, why won't these bunkers die. It's obviously the passive sustain" *Another build pops up that does relevant damage* The Forums: "Quick nerf that too!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CutesySylveon.8290 Posted February 11, 2021 Share Posted February 11, 2021 > @"Kuma.1503" said: > The forums: "That does too much damage. .9 is too much. Nerf it so it doesn't do so much damage" > > Also the fourms: "kitten, why won't these bunkers die. It's obviously the passive sustain" > > *Another build pops up that does relevant damage* > > The Forums: "Quick nerf that too!" > > It's a minor passive trait, we can all agree that things like Reckless Dodge did too much damage pre Feb so why is only one able to do those levels of damage? It's not just damage but what's doing it that's the issue, and this is without the absolute ridiculousness that is Flashbang. We were all joking before the last nerf to Flashbang that it would just be a blind duration nerf and that's exactly what happened. Standing in Spirit Sword and dying is one thing, being hit for 3k from any hit, including CC, because somebody dodged is a bit much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kodama.6453 Posted February 11, 2021 Share Posted February 11, 2021 > @"CutesySylveon.8290" said: > > @"Kodama.6453" said: > > > @"CutesySylveon.8290" said: > > > Get rid of Flashbang, shave damage off EE and it's fine. If these don't happen then an ICD is absolutely necessary. > > > > They already reduced it's damage to 0.9 coefficient in PvP. > > And the trait has no ICD because it requires a dodge. Your endurance is already limiting how often you can use the trait, so there is no need for an ICD. > > > > If you want flashbang removed, what to replace it with? > > Two dodges at any time and access to vigor make this a very weak argument for how powerful it is, especially compared to the other dodge attack traits. > > Bound is base 155 with a .5 modifier, and Reckless Impact is base 133 with a .5 as well. EE is base 239 with a .9 modifier and it doesn't have to hit at the dodge location, it procs on the next hit and even has the largest AoE to top it off. It's by far the superior version and needs a nerf in some way, and if you don't want an ICD then its damage needs to go. First of all, mentioning a "base damage" makes no sense in this discussion here, since something like base damage like in League of Legends doesn't exist in this game. Skills directly scale with power, the power coefficient is the only needed information here. And you even put the wrong "base damage" for bound in here. What you interpret as base damage is 133 for bound, too. Which is obvious to happen, since the coefficient is 0.5 for it just like for reckless impact, hence why these 2 numbers **have** to be the same here. Second, you are cherry picking. You are just comparing the damage of these skills, completely ignoring the other effects they have. Explosive entrance is an explosion additionally, but reckless impact is unblockable and grants 5 seconds of might for every target hit, potentially giving 5 stacks of might. Bound additionally is a leap finisher and increases your physical damage by 10% for the next 4 seconds. Last, but not least: you are comparing skills in a vacuum here. Different classes have differences, that is literally their entire point. Just because engineer deals more damage with their dodge trait than the other classes does not necessarily mean that it needs nerfs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kodama.6453 Posted February 11, 2021 Share Posted February 11, 2021 > @"CutesySylveon.8290" said: > > @"Kuma.1503" said: > > The forums: "That does too much damage. .9 is too much. Nerf it so it doesn't do so much damage" > > > > Also the fourms: "kitten, why won't these bunkers die. It's obviously the passive sustain" > > > > *Another build pops up that does relevant damage* > > > > The Forums: "Quick nerf that too!" > > > > > > It's a minor passive trait, we can all agree that things like Reckless Dodge did too much damage pre Feb so why is only one able to do those levels of damage? It's not just damage but what's doing it that's the issue, and this is without the absolute ridiculousness that is Flashbang. We were all joking before the last nerf to Flashbang that it would just be a blind duration nerf and that's exactly what happened. > > Standing in Spirit Sword and dying is one thing, being hit for 3k from any hit, including CC, because somebody dodged is a bit much. I think there are two reasons why Anet is allowing explosive entrance to have higher damage potentially. 1. Explosive entrance is delayed further than the other dodge traits. The other traits you mentioned deal their damage at the same time the dodge happens. Explosive entrance lets you dodge and has a short delay before the buff applies to the engineer, then the next attack will trigger it. Which gives potentially more time to react to it. They apply the rule of instant dodges to traits of the engineer, too. There is another dodge trait in the holosmith toolbox: thermal release valve. This trait also deals the damage directly with the dodge. It has it's damage **heavily** cut. 2. Core engineer trait lines are fairly weak in comparison. That is one of the major reasons why core engineer is basically dead in all game modes, since you are required to have 3 strong trait lines to be viable. Maybe Riot just want to allow engineer to have a good trait line here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuma.1503 Posted February 11, 2021 Share Posted February 11, 2021 > @"CutesySylveon.8290" said: > > @"Kuma.1503" said: > > The forums: "That does too much damage. .9 is too much. Nerf it so it doesn't do so much damage" > > > > Also the fourms: "kitten, why won't these bunkers die. It's obviously the passive sustain" > > > > *Another build pops up that does relevant damage* > > > > The Forums: "Quick nerf that too!" > > > > > > It's a minor passive trait, we can all agree that things like Reckless Dodge did too much damage pre Feb so why is only one able to do those levels of damage? It's not just damage but what's doing it that's the issue, and this is without the absolute ridiculousness that is Flashbang. We were all joking before the last nerf to Flashbang that it would just be a blind duration nerf and that's exactly what happened. > > Standing in Spirit Sword and dying is one thing, being hit for 3k from any hit, including CC, because somebody dodged is a bit much. 3k damage (.9 power coeff) Is less damage than a mortar kit auto. Which an engineer can spam on node safely from 1500 range. It's a bit of icing on the cake on top of their burst, but nothing rediculous. The existance of passive damage isn't a problem in itself. I reckon a ranger does far more with their pet (reminder, smokescale can passively knockdown), and a guardian does far more over time with their passive burns, neither of which requires any trait investment. Why is this so much worse? Because it requires endurance to activate? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZDragon.3046 Posted February 11, 2021 Share Posted February 11, 2021 > @"Kuma.1503" said: > > @"CutesySylveon.8290" said: > > > @"Kuma.1503" said: > > > The forums: "That does too much damage. .9 is too much. Nerf it so it doesn't do so much damage" > > > > > > Also the fourms: "kitten, why won't these bunkers die. It's obviously the passive sustain" > > > > > > *Another build pops up that does relevant damage* > > > > > > The Forums: "Quick nerf that too!" > > > > > > > > > > It's a minor passive trait, we can all agree that things like Reckless Dodge did too much damage pre Feb so why is only one able to do those levels of damage? It's not just damage but what's doing it that's the issue, and this is without the absolute ridiculousness that is Flashbang. We were all joking before the last nerf to Flashbang that it would just be a blind duration nerf and that's exactly what happened. > > > > Standing in Spirit Sword and dying is one thing, being hit for 3k from any hit, including CC, because somebody dodged is a bit much. > > 3k damage (.9 power coeff) Is less damage than a mortar kit auto. Which an engineer can spam on node safely from 1500 range. It's a bit of icing on the cake on top of their burst, but nothing rediculous. > > The existance of passive damage isn't a problem in itself. I reckon a ranger does far more with their pet (reminder, smokescale can passively knockdown), and a guardian does far more over time with their passive burns, neither of which requires any trait investment. Why is this so much worse? Because it requires endurance to activate? > > This is not the best comparison to be honest if anet has any kind of balancing standard EE shouldnt be anywhere near as strong as it is in pvp. Keep in mind a rangers pet more kin to the f skills which would be more like comparing it to extra damage that comes from engi's tool bet skills (many which are instant and can be combo'ed with other skills) EE should be based closer to other traits that grant passive damage from doing an action or on hit passive procs. Ergo EE should ideally be looking closer to traits like Reckless dodge (Warrior) Mark of Evasion (Necro) Evasive Arcana (Ele) We could even say it could be closer to traits like Power Block (Mesmer) Chill of Death (Necro) Chilling Nova (Necro/Reaper) Wrath of Justice (Guardian) Keep in mind most of these examples do not do critical damage (many of them hardly do damage at all) and are selectable adept, master, or grandmaster examples while EE is the first Minor trait in the explosive line. The fact that EE refreshes on dodge, does critical damage, and can be made to blind without reducing its damage makes it considerably stronger than other traits that easily fit into a similar (on hit proc or on hit of certain action) options on other professions. Thats just how I look at the situation. Other professions have had their passive on hit proc triats reduced to basically tickle damage while EE basically acts like a proper extra skill. This is why people still say it needs a nerf. They want their on hit passives to have their damage back and be able to critically hit or they want EE in the same tier. Even more so because its a minor and many of the things I listed above are as i said Adept, Master, and Grand master options. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuma.1503 Posted February 11, 2021 Share Posted February 11, 2021 > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > @"Kuma.1503" said: > > > @"CutesySylveon.8290" said: > > > > @"Kuma.1503" said: > > > > The forums: "That does too much damage. .9 is too much. Nerf it so it doesn't do so much damage" > > > > > > > > Also the fourms: "kitten, why won't these bunkers die. It's obviously the passive sustain" > > > > > > > > *Another build pops up that does relevant damage* > > > > > > > > The Forums: "Quick nerf that too!" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's a minor passive trait, we can all agree that things like Reckless Dodge did too much damage pre Feb so why is only one able to do those levels of damage? It's not just damage but what's doing it that's the issue, and this is without the absolute ridiculousness that is Flashbang. We were all joking before the last nerf to Flashbang that it would just be a blind duration nerf and that's exactly what happened. > > > > > > Standing in Spirit Sword and dying is one thing, being hit for 3k from any hit, including CC, because somebody dodged is a bit much. > > > > 3k damage (.9 power coeff) Is less damage than a mortar kit auto. Which an engineer can spam on node safely from 1500 range. It's a bit of icing on the cake on top of their burst, but nothing rediculous. > > > > The existance of passive damage isn't a problem in itself. I reckon a ranger does far more with their pet (reminder, smokescale can passively knockdown), and a guardian does far more over time with their passive burns, neither of which requires any trait investment. Why is this so much worse? Because it requires endurance to activate? > > > > > > This is not the best comparison to be honest if anet has any kind of balancing standard EE shouldnt be anywhere near as strong as it is in pvp. > Keep in mind a rangers pet more kin to the f skills which would be more like comparing it to extra damage that comes from engi's tool bet skills (many which are instant and can be combo'ed with other skills) > > EE should be based closer to other traits that grant passive damage from doing an action or on hit passive procs. > Ergo > EE should ideally be looking closer to traits like > Reckless dodge (Warrior) > Mark of Evasion (Necro) > Evasive Arcana (Ele) > > We could even say it could be closer to traits like > Power Block (Mesmer) > Chill of Death (Necro) > Chilling Nova (Necro/Reaper) > Wrath of Justice (Guardian) > > Keep in mind most of these examples do not do critical damage (many of them hardly do damage at all) and are selectable adept, master, or grandmaster examples while EE is the first Minor trait in the explosive line. > The fact that EE refreshes on dodge, does critical damage, and can be made to blind without reducing its damage makes it considerably stronger than other traits that easily fit into a similar (on hit proc or on hit of certain action) options on other professions. > > Thats just how I look at the situation. Other professions have had their passive on hit proc triats reduced to basically tickle damage while EE basically acts like a proper extra skill. This is why people still say it needs a nerf. They want their on hit passives to have their damage back and be able to critically hit or they want EE in the same tier. Even more so because its a minor and many of the things I listed above are as i said Adept, Master, and Grand master options. EE is different than the traits you mentioned for two major reasons 1. It is also the only trait listed here to be a **major focus in an entire traitline**. It's given similar treatment to effects like **Invoke torment**. A passive effect which is focused on heavily throughout the Corruption traitline. It can be traited to deal massive damage (even more than EE) with traits like Diabolic Inferno, or transfer conditions. I'd argue this is the best comparison because these two traits were both results of traitline reworks, they were introduced in the same patch. Both are passive effects which play a central role through out their respective traitlines. Both can be further augmented with additional effects. 2. The traits you listed are generally utility focused in nature. Power Block, for example, increases skill cooldowns by 15 seconds. This is a massive effect, and arguably much more important than the damage it deals. Similarly you could completely remove the damage from Evasive Arcana, and it would still be useful for the heal/cleanse in water, or the blast finisher/cripple in earth. EE's only purpose (baseline) is to deal damage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZDragon.3046 Posted February 12, 2021 Share Posted February 12, 2021 > @"Kuma.1503" said: > > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > > @"Kuma.1503" said: > > > > @"CutesySylveon.8290" said: > > > > > @"Kuma.1503" said: > > > > > The forums: "That does too much damage. .9 is too much. Nerf it so it doesn't do so much damage" > > > > > > > > > > Also the fourms: "kitten, why won't these bunkers die. It's obviously the passive sustain" > > > > > > > > > > *Another build pops up that does relevant damage* > > > > > > > > > > The Forums: "Quick nerf that too!" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's a minor passive trait, we can all agree that things like Reckless Dodge did too much damage pre Feb so why is only one able to do those levels of damage? It's not just damage but what's doing it that's the issue, and this is without the absolute ridiculousness that is Flashbang. We were all joking before the last nerf to Flashbang that it would just be a blind duration nerf and that's exactly what happened. > > > > > > > > Standing in Spirit Sword and dying is one thing, being hit for 3k from any hit, including CC, because somebody dodged is a bit much. > > > > > > 3k damage (.9 power coeff) Is less damage than a mortar kit auto. Which an engineer can spam on node safely from 1500 range. It's a bit of icing on the cake on top of their burst, but nothing rediculous. > > > > > > The existance of passive damage isn't a problem in itself. I reckon a ranger does far more with their pet (reminder, smokescale can passively knockdown), and a guardian does far more over time with their passive burns, neither of which requires any trait investment. Why is this so much worse? Because it requires endurance to activate? > > > > > > > > > > This is not the best comparison to be honest if anet has any kind of balancing standard EE shouldnt be anywhere near as strong as it is in pvp. > > Keep in mind a rangers pet more kin to the f skills which would be more like comparing it to extra damage that comes from engi's tool bet skills (many which are instant and can be combo'ed with other skills) > > > > EE should be based closer to other traits that grant passive damage from doing an action or on hit passive procs. > > Ergo > > EE should ideally be looking closer to traits like > > Reckless dodge (Warrior) > > Mark of Evasion (Necro) > > Evasive Arcana (Ele) > > > > We could even say it could be closer to traits like > > Power Block (Mesmer) > > Chill of Death (Necro) > > Chilling Nova (Necro/Reaper) > > Wrath of Justice (Guardian) > > > > Keep in mind most of these examples do not do critical damage (many of them hardly do damage at all) and are selectable adept, master, or grandmaster examples while EE is the first Minor trait in the explosive line. > > The fact that EE refreshes on dodge, does critical damage, and can be made to blind without reducing its damage makes it considerably stronger than other traits that easily fit into a similar (on hit proc or on hit of certain action) options on other professions. > > > > Thats just how I look at the situation. Other professions have had their passive on hit proc triats reduced to basically tickle damage while EE basically acts like a proper extra skill. This is why people still say it needs a nerf. They want their on hit passives to have their damage back and be able to critically hit or they want EE in the same tier. Even more so because its a minor and many of the things I listed above are as i said Adept, Master, and Grand master options. > > EE is different than the traits you mentioned for two major reasons > > 1. It is also the only trait listed here to be a **major focus in an entire traitline**. It's given similar treatment to effects like **Invoke torment**. A passive effect which is focused on heavily throughout the Corruption traitline. It can be traited to deal massive damage (even more than EE) with traits like Diabolic Inferno, or transfer conditions. I'd argue this is the best comparison because these two traits were both results of traitline reworks, they were introduced in the same patch. Both are passive effects which play a central role through out their respective traitlines. Both can be further augmented with additional effects. I would still say that EE is over performing a good bit even with this example. Invoke torment is a 1 off every 10s at best. EE has really only 2 extra traits that modify it. I personally would not call this a whole trainline heavily focusing on it I wouldnt say the same for Invoke torment either. Its not necessary focused through the entire line more like it has a few traits that modify it or boost it to be even stronger which is likely a warrant for its base to not be as strong as it is to be frank with you. Even if we look at examples like Invoke torment with like the most extremes there are only 3 traits that effect it and all 3 of them are grand master options. EE has 1 master trait and 1 grand master trait. The other minors in-between i would not consider a direct focus to EE because they effect skills throughout all of Engi's damage options as a whole that happen to be classed as explosions. I personally wouldn't consider this heavy focus for EE but if we still must classify it like that its likely still warranted for nerfs in the eyes of others based on trait lines like invoke torment with a cd of some kind instead of just refreshing on roll. > 2. The traits you listed are generally utility focused in nature. Power Block, for example, increases skill cooldowns by 15 seconds. This is a massive effect, and arguably much more important than the damage it deals. Similarly you could completely remove the damage from Evasive Arcana, and it would still be useful for the heal/cleanse in water, or the blast finisher/cripple in earth. EE's only purpose (baseline) is to deal damage. Power block is an of a stretch and its fair that you call out its other utility. However even if we remove that one example there are still others that are lesser utility based and more damage focused. Some of the others are not and by far are closer to simply put extra damage on hit for example **Chilling nova** which has several combos with several other chill inspired traits in the reaper line does not do anywhere near the damage of EE and has a cooldown. I suppose you could consider that "Utility" in the idea of "Well it extends chill uptime", but then we have to look at a traits like **Blast Shield/Flashbang** and question if taking such traits should considerably reduce EE's damage to be non existent as they add considerable utility to EE procs. Even if we look at it as a baseline to "deal damage" i still argue personally that, maybe... just maybe, the damage should not be able to critically hit like many other passive damage traits. It is an outlier from my and many others perspectives and its no surprise people continue to complain about it. Regardless of how you class EE it sits in its own tier above other similar trait options. While I wont exactly demand EE be nerfed to the floor myself (if anet does nerf it i wont argue against it) I easily understand why people want it nerfed more because it stands far above other similar options. Basically EE is by far one of the best traits of its passive damage type because its does good damage, can do critical damage, is not limited by a cooldown, and can be modified to grant utility via its traits. I might even argue that EE is not directly in need of a nerf, however the traits that modify and grant it utility should be changed so that when they are taken EE's damage becomes less effective as they add considerable utility to EE. I only say this because other professions have similar traits that are stand alone adept/master/grand masters with questionably equal or lesser utility that also do less damage, cannot critically hit, and have internal cds. As i said im not going to demand for EE nerfs but at the very least I would propose that taits that add utility to EE change the base skill of EE reducing its damage in some way either removing the ability to critically strike or giving it a flat icd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuma.1503 Posted February 12, 2021 Share Posted February 12, 2021 > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > @"Kuma.1503" said: > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > > > @"Kuma.1503" said: > > > > > @"CutesySylveon.8290" said: > > > > > > @"Kuma.1503" said: > > > > > > The forums: "That does too much damage. .9 is too much. Nerf it so it doesn't do so much damage" > > > > > > > > > > > > Also the fourms: "kitten, why won't these bunkers die. It's obviously the passive sustain" > > > > > > > > > > > > *Another build pops up that does relevant damage* > > > > > > > > > > > > The Forums: "Quick nerf that too!" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's a minor passive trait, we can all agree that things like Reckless Dodge did too much damage pre Feb so why is only one able to do those levels of damage? It's not just damage but what's doing it that's the issue, and this is without the absolute ridiculousness that is Flashbang. We were all joking before the last nerf to Flashbang that it would just be a blind duration nerf and that's exactly what happened. > > > > > > > > > > Standing in Spirit Sword and dying is one thing, being hit for 3k from any hit, including CC, because somebody dodged is a bit much. > > > > > > > > 3k damage (.9 power coeff) Is less damage than a mortar kit auto. Which an engineer can spam on node safely from 1500 range. It's a bit of icing on the cake on top of their burst, but nothing rediculous. > > > > > > > > The existance of passive damage isn't a problem in itself. I reckon a ranger does far more with their pet (reminder, smokescale can passively knockdown), and a guardian does far more over time with their passive burns, neither of which requires any trait investment. Why is this so much worse? Because it requires endurance to activate? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is not the best comparison to be honest if anet has any kind of balancing standard EE shouldnt be anywhere near as strong as it is in pvp. > > > Keep in mind a rangers pet more kin to the f skills which would be more like comparing it to extra damage that comes from engi's tool bet skills (many which are instant and can be combo'ed with other skills) > > > > > > EE should be based closer to other traits that grant passive damage from doing an action or on hit passive procs. > > > Ergo > > > EE should ideally be looking closer to traits like > > > Reckless dodge (Warrior) > > > Mark of Evasion (Necro) > > > Evasive Arcana (Ele) > > > > > > We could even say it could be closer to traits like > > > Power Block (Mesmer) > > > Chill of Death (Necro) > > > Chilling Nova (Necro/Reaper) > > > Wrath of Justice (Guardian) > > > > > > Keep in mind most of these examples do not do critical damage (many of them hardly do damage at all) and are selectable adept, master, or grandmaster examples while EE is the first Minor trait in the explosive line. > > > The fact that EE refreshes on dodge, does critical damage, and can be made to blind without reducing its damage makes it considerably stronger than other traits that easily fit into a similar (on hit proc or on hit of certain action) options on other professions. > > > > > > Thats just how I look at the situation. Other professions have had their passive on hit proc triats reduced to basically tickle damage while EE basically acts like a proper extra skill. This is why people still say it needs a nerf. They want their on hit passives to have their damage back and be able to critically hit or they want EE in the same tier. Even more so because its a minor and many of the things I listed above are as i said Adept, Master, and Grand master options. > > > > EE is different than the traits you mentioned for two major reasons > > > > 1. It is also the only trait listed here to be a **major focus in an entire traitline**. It's given similar treatment to effects like **Invoke torment**. A passive effect which is focused on heavily throughout the Corruption traitline. It can be traited to deal massive damage (even more than EE) with traits like Diabolic Inferno, or transfer conditions. I'd argue this is the best comparison because these two traits were both results of traitline reworks, they were introduced in the same patch. Both are passive effects which play a central role through out their respective traitlines. Both can be further augmented with additional effects. > > I would still say that EE is over performing a good bit even with this example. Invoke torment is a 1 off every 10s at best. EE has really only 2 extra traits that modify it. I personally would not call this a whole trainline heavily focusing on it I wouldnt say the same for Invoke torment either. Its not necessary focused through the entire line more like it has a few traits that modify it or boost it to be even stronger which is likely a warrant for its base to not be as strong as it is to be frank with you. > > Even if we look at examples like Invoke torment with like the most extremes there are only 3 traits that effect it and all 3 of them are grand master options. EE has 1 master trait and 1 grand master trait. The other minors in-between i would not consider a direct focus to EE because they effect skills throughout all of Engi's damage options as a whole that happen to be classed as explosions. I personally wouldn't consider this heavy focus for EE but if we still must classify it like that its likely still warranted for nerfs in the eyes of others based on trait lines like invoke torment with a cd of some kind instead of just refreshing on roll. > > > 2. The traits you listed are generally utility focused in nature. Power Block, for example, increases skill cooldowns by 15 seconds. This is a massive effect, and arguably much more important than the damage it deals. Similarly you could completely remove the damage from Evasive Arcana, and it would still be useful for the heal/cleanse in water, or the blast finisher/cripple in earth. EE's only purpose (baseline) is to deal damage. > > Power block is an of a stretch and its fair that you call out its other utility. However even if we remove that one example there are still others that are lesser utility based and more damage focused. > Some of the others are not and by far are closer to simply put extra damage on hit for example **Chilling nova** which has several combos with several other chill inspired traits in the reaper line does not do anywhere near the damage of EE and has a cooldown. I suppose you could consider that "Utility" in the idea of "Well it extends chill uptime", but then we have to look at a traits like **Blast Shield/Flashbang** and question if taking such traits should considerably reduce EE's damage to be non existent as they add considerable utility to EE procs. > > Even if we look at it as a baseline to "deal damage" i still argue personally that, maybe... just maybe, the damage should not be able to critically hit like many other passive damage traits. It is an outlier from my and many others perspectives and its no surprise people continue to complain about it. Regardless of how you class EE it sits in its own tier above other similar trait options. While I wont exactly demand EE be nerfed to the floor myself (if anet does nerf it i wont argue against it) I easily understand why people want it nerfed more because it stands far above other similar options. > > Basically EE is by far one of the best traits of its passive damage type because its does good damage, can do critical damage, is not limited by a cooldown, and can be modified to grant utility via its traits. I might even argue that EE is not directly in need of a nerf, however the traits that modify and grant it utility should be changed so that when they are taken EE's damage becomes less effective as they add considerable utility to EE. I only say this because other professions have similar traits that are stand alone adept/master/grand masters with questionably equal or lesser utility that also do less damage, cannot critically hit, and have internal cds. > > As i said im not going to demand for EE nerfs but at the very least I would propose that taits that add utility to EE change the base skill of EE reducing its damage in some way either removing the ability to critically strike or giving it a flat icd. > I'm just going to make one observation. Considering EE is a power focused trait, and Invoke Torment is a condition focused trait which do you think deals more **power damage**? If you guessed, EE, you'd be incorrect. Invoke torment does more power damage than EE **on top of the conditions in inflicts**. Even if you granted that it's effect cannot be accessed as frequently, it more than makes up for it in how powerful the effect is per application. To pair off the benefits of both Invoke Torment - Does more power damage - Has more powerful (traited) effects. It can apply hard hitting conditions, transfer conditions, and/or grant resistance. - Is generally used on cooldown. Rev's are incintevised to legend swap as close to on CD as possible to gain the maximum amount of energy regeneration. Explosive Entrance - Has a shorter cooldown (Variable based on how close to on CD the engineer dodges) - With Flashbang, has a CC effect attatched (above 90% health). Blinds below 90% health - Applies weak barrier (traited) Both have their benefits in relation to each other, but I would not say EE is out of line in comparison to Invoke Torment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZDragon.3046 Posted February 12, 2021 Share Posted February 12, 2021 > @"Kuma.1503" said: > > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > > @"Kuma.1503" said: > > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > > > > @"Kuma.1503" said: > > > > > > @"CutesySylveon.8290" said: > > > > > > > @"Kuma.1503" said: > > > > > > > The forums: "That does too much damage. .9 is too much. Nerf it so it doesn't do so much damage" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Also the fourms: "kitten, why won't these bunkers die. It's obviously the passive sustain" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *Another build pops up that does relevant damage* > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The Forums: "Quick nerf that too!" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's a minor passive trait, we can all agree that things like Reckless Dodge did too much damage pre Feb so why is only one able to do those levels of damage? It's not just damage but what's doing it that's the issue, and this is without the absolute ridiculousness that is Flashbang. We were all joking before the last nerf to Flashbang that it would just be a blind duration nerf and that's exactly what happened. > > > > > > > > > > > > Standing in Spirit Sword and dying is one thing, being hit for 3k from any hit, including CC, because somebody dodged is a bit much. > > > > > > > > > > 3k damage (.9 power coeff) Is less damage than a mortar kit auto. Which an engineer can spam on node safely from 1500 range. It's a bit of icing on the cake on top of their burst, but nothing rediculous. > > > > > > > > > > The existance of passive damage isn't a problem in itself. I reckon a ranger does far more with their pet (reminder, smokescale can passively knockdown), and a guardian does far more over time with their passive burns, neither of which requires any trait investment. Why is this so much worse? Because it requires endurance to activate? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is not the best comparison to be honest if anet has any kind of balancing standard EE shouldnt be anywhere near as strong as it is in pvp. > > > > Keep in mind a rangers pet more kin to the f skills which would be more like comparing it to extra damage that comes from engi's tool bet skills (many which are instant and can be combo'ed with other skills) > > > > > > > > EE should be based closer to other traits that grant passive damage from doing an action or on hit passive procs. > > > > Ergo > > > > EE should ideally be looking closer to traits like > > > > Reckless dodge (Warrior) > > > > Mark of Evasion (Necro) > > > > Evasive Arcana (Ele) > > > > > > > > We could even say it could be closer to traits like > > > > Power Block (Mesmer) > > > > Chill of Death (Necro) > > > > Chilling Nova (Necro/Reaper) > > > > Wrath of Justice (Guardian) > > > > > > > > Keep in mind most of these examples do not do critical damage (many of them hardly do damage at all) and are selectable adept, master, or grandmaster examples while EE is the first Minor trait in the explosive line. > > > > The fact that EE refreshes on dodge, does critical damage, and can be made to blind without reducing its damage makes it considerably stronger than other traits that easily fit into a similar (on hit proc or on hit of certain action) options on other professions. > > > > > > > > Thats just how I look at the situation. Other professions have had their passive on hit proc triats reduced to basically tickle damage while EE basically acts like a proper extra skill. This is why people still say it needs a nerf. They want their on hit passives to have their damage back and be able to critically hit or they want EE in the same tier. Even more so because its a minor and many of the things I listed above are as i said Adept, Master, and Grand master options. > > > > > > EE is different than the traits you mentioned for two major reasons > > > > > > 1. It is also the only trait listed here to be a **major focus in an entire traitline**. It's given similar treatment to effects like **Invoke torment**. A passive effect which is focused on heavily throughout the Corruption traitline. It can be traited to deal massive damage (even more than EE) with traits like Diabolic Inferno, or transfer conditions. I'd argue this is the best comparison because these two traits were both results of traitline reworks, they were introduced in the same patch. Both are passive effects which play a central role through out their respective traitlines. Both can be further augmented with additional effects. > > > > I would still say that EE is over performing a good bit even with this example. Invoke torment is a 1 off every 10s at best. EE has really only 2 extra traits that modify it. I personally would not call this a whole trainline heavily focusing on it I wouldnt say the same for Invoke torment either. Its not necessary focused through the entire line more like it has a few traits that modify it or boost it to be even stronger which is likely a warrant for its base to not be as strong as it is to be frank with you. > > > > Even if we look at examples like Invoke torment with like the most extremes there are only 3 traits that effect it and all 3 of them are grand master options. EE has 1 master trait and 1 grand master trait. The other minors in-between i would not consider a direct focus to EE because they effect skills throughout all of Engi's damage options as a whole that happen to be classed as explosions. I personally wouldn't consider this heavy focus for EE but if we still must classify it like that its likely still warranted for nerfs in the eyes of others based on trait lines like invoke torment with a cd of some kind instead of just refreshing on roll. > > > > > 2. The traits you listed are generally utility focused in nature. Power Block, for example, increases skill cooldowns by 15 seconds. This is a massive effect, and arguably much more important than the damage it deals. Similarly you could completely remove the damage from Evasive Arcana, and it would still be useful for the heal/cleanse in water, or the blast finisher/cripple in earth. EE's only purpose (baseline) is to deal damage. > > > > Power block is an of a stretch and its fair that you call out its other utility. However even if we remove that one example there are still others that are lesser utility based and more damage focused. > > Some of the others are not and by far are closer to simply put extra damage on hit for example **Chilling nova** which has several combos with several other chill inspired traits in the reaper line does not do anywhere near the damage of EE and has a cooldown. I suppose you could consider that "Utility" in the idea of "Well it extends chill uptime", but then we have to look at a traits like **Blast Shield/Flashbang** and question if taking such traits should considerably reduce EE's damage to be non existent as they add considerable utility to EE procs. > > > > Even if we look at it as a baseline to "deal damage" i still argue personally that, maybe... just maybe, the damage should not be able to critically hit like many other passive damage traits. It is an outlier from my and many others perspectives and its no surprise people continue to complain about it. Regardless of how you class EE it sits in its own tier above other similar trait options. While I wont exactly demand EE be nerfed to the floor myself (if anet does nerf it i wont argue against it) I easily understand why people want it nerfed more because it stands far above other similar options. > > > > Basically EE is by far one of the best traits of its passive damage type because its does good damage, can do critical damage, is not limited by a cooldown, and can be modified to grant utility via its traits. I might even argue that EE is not directly in need of a nerf, however the traits that modify and grant it utility should be changed so that when they are taken EE's damage becomes less effective as they add considerable utility to EE. I only say this because other professions have similar traits that are stand alone adept/master/grand masters with questionably equal or lesser utility that also do less damage, cannot critically hit, and have internal cds. > > > > As i said im not going to demand for EE nerfs but at the very least I would propose that taits that add utility to EE change the base skill of EE reducing its damage in some way either removing the ability to critically strike or giving it a flat icd. > > > > I'm just going to make one observation. Considering EE is a power focused trait, and Invoke Torment is a condition focused trait which do you think deals more **power damage**? > > If you guessed, EE, you'd be incorrect. Invoke torment does more power damage than EE **on top of the conditions in inflicts**. Even if you granted that it's effect cannot be accessed as frequently, it more than makes up for it in how powerful the effect is per application. I will have to test in game (incase the wiki tool tip is off) but I dont think you are correct here. (unless it really is off) base 121 with a .33 cof strike damage on Inv.Torment vs base 239 with a .90 cof strike damage on EE You would be lucky to see Inv. Torment do half as much as EE with base numbers like these to be honest with you. Based on the pvp only scaling incase you peeked at the wrong thing but that does not seems like a mistake you would make so I'll assume there is a high chance the wiki tool tip is wrong and give it a look in game later. In total damage yes Inv. Torment will do more as it also applies a torment stack (assuming it sticks for the full duration) How ever its also limited to the 10s cool down and basically a small area outside of melee range. > > To pair off the benefits of both > > Invoke Torment > - Does more power damage Will have to confirm this later. > - Has more powerful (traited) effects. It can apply hard hitting conditions, transfer conditions, and/or grant resistance. You can only pick 1 of these not all 3. 1 just adds damage which is fine for a grandmaster 2 grants 1s of resistance the utility here is basically does not exists which is why its not often used. 3 grants decent utility as a transfer but based on what im told can be clunky at times > - Is generally used on cooldown. Rev's are incintevised to legend swap as close to on CD as possible to gain the maximum amount of energy regeneration. This is kind of situational while you are correct its not always the case that they can swap ontop of you and then there is still the matter of the cd using it as often as posible does not make the cd not exists I personally view EE being an auto refresh on 10s cd as more balanced than it currently is right now. I wont demand the idea but im also not against it i just think it would be more fair by comparison of other trait standards throughout the game. > Explosive Entrance > - Has a shorter cooldown (Variable based on how close to on CD the engineer dodges) > - With Flashbang, has a CC effect attatched (above 90% health). Blinds below 90% health > - Applies weak barrier (traited) Unlike the pervious both can be taken at the same time regardless of how strong one views the benefits of adding the utility it still adds utility. Especially in the case of flashbang triggering a cc which the majority of which should not be dealing damage at this point. That trait in itself does make EE an outlier among many things as anets goal was to basically not have instant cc attacks doing 3-5k damage or more which EE was doing it can probably still hit close to 5k on light armors. Yes I understand the cc only triggers on basically max health targets but this is still not a fact to be ignored. My question is still why do other traits that have damage procing effects not have anywhere near close to the damage of EE with its utility trait addons or why adding utility to EE does not reduce its damage similarly to other traits. Anet, allegedly, standardized them to not be both on hit proc damage and utility in pvp. This is why people want EE nerfed more because it breaks the standard for most of the skills they have that do act in a similar way. While not all those traits have an entire line or 2-3 parts of trait line pointing at a minor trait like EE does, this is only because EE is still for the most part is new in the game from the explosives rework so its been a sore spot for people for while as it was doing far higher numbers than what it is now and many people still consider 3-5k too high for a on hit proc. I would argue the same for Inv. torment to be honest if it was bursting people for more than 3-5k instantly while transferring conditions for example. (I will do more research on inv. torment next time i log on just to see what kind of raw numbers it can hit) I'm just saying... I understand the "why" people want it toned down more still because in comparison to many other things its still hitting hard even with the minor/major utilities attached onto it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuma.1503 Posted February 12, 2021 Share Posted February 12, 2021 > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > @"Kuma.1503" said: > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > > > @"Kuma.1503" said: > > > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > > > > > @"Kuma.1503" said: > > > > > > > @"CutesySylveon.8290" said: > > > > > > > > @"Kuma.1503" said: > > > > > > > > The forums: "That does too much damage. .9 is too much. Nerf it so it doesn't do so much damage" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Also the fourms: "kitten, why won't these bunkers die. It's obviously the passive sustain" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *Another build pops up that does relevant damage* > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The Forums: "Quick nerf that too!" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's a minor passive trait, we can all agree that things like Reckless Dodge did too much damage pre Feb so why is only one able to do those levels of damage? It's not just damage but what's doing it that's the issue, and this is without the absolute ridiculousness that is Flashbang. We were all joking before the last nerf to Flashbang that it would just be a blind duration nerf and that's exactly what happened. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Standing in Spirit Sword and dying is one thing, being hit for 3k from any hit, including CC, because somebody dodged is a bit much. > > > > > > > > > > > > 3k damage (.9 power coeff) Is less damage than a mortar kit auto. Which an engineer can spam on node safely from 1500 range. It's a bit of icing on the cake on top of their burst, but nothing rediculous. > > > > > > > > > > > > The existance of passive damage isn't a problem in itself. I reckon a ranger does far more with their pet (reminder, smokescale can passively knockdown), and a guardian does far more over time with their passive burns, neither of which requires any trait investment. Why is this so much worse? Because it requires endurance to activate? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is not the best comparison to be honest if anet has any kind of balancing standard EE shouldnt be anywhere near as strong as it is in pvp. > > > > > Keep in mind a rangers pet more kin to the f skills which would be more like comparing it to extra damage that comes from engi's tool bet skills (many which are instant and can be combo'ed with other skills) > > > > > > > > > > EE should be based closer to other traits that grant passive damage from doing an action or on hit passive procs. > > > > > Ergo > > > > > EE should ideally be looking closer to traits like > > > > > Reckless dodge (Warrior) > > > > > Mark of Evasion (Necro) > > > > > Evasive Arcana (Ele) > > > > > > > > > > We could even say it could be closer to traits like > > > > > Power Block (Mesmer) > > > > > Chill of Death (Necro) > > > > > Chilling Nova (Necro/Reaper) > > > > > Wrath of Justice (Guardian) > > > > > > > > > > Keep in mind most of these examples do not do critical damage (many of them hardly do damage at all) and are selectable adept, master, or grandmaster examples while EE is the first Minor trait in the explosive line. > > > > > The fact that EE refreshes on dodge, does critical damage, and can be made to blind without reducing its damage makes it considerably stronger than other traits that easily fit into a similar (on hit proc or on hit of certain action) options on other professions. > > > > > > > > > > Thats just how I look at the situation. Other professions have had their passive on hit proc triats reduced to basically tickle damage while EE basically acts like a proper extra skill. This is why people still say it needs a nerf. They want their on hit passives to have their damage back and be able to critically hit or they want EE in the same tier. Even more so because its a minor and many of the things I listed above are as i said Adept, Master, and Grand master options. > > > > > > > > EE is different than the traits you mentioned for two major reasons > > > > > > > > 1. It is also the only trait listed here to be a **major focus in an entire traitline**. It's given similar treatment to effects like **Invoke torment**. A passive effect which is focused on heavily throughout the Corruption traitline. It can be traited to deal massive damage (even more than EE) with traits like Diabolic Inferno, or transfer conditions. I'd argue this is the best comparison because these two traits were both results of traitline reworks, they were introduced in the same patch. Both are passive effects which play a central role through out their respective traitlines. Both can be further augmented with additional effects. > > > > > > I would still say that EE is over performing a good bit even with this example. Invoke torment is a 1 off every 10s at best. EE has really only 2 extra traits that modify it. I personally would not call this a whole trainline heavily focusing on it I wouldnt say the same for Invoke torment either. Its not necessary focused through the entire line more like it has a few traits that modify it or boost it to be even stronger which is likely a warrant for its base to not be as strong as it is to be frank with you. > > > > > > Even if we look at examples like Invoke torment with like the most extremes there are only 3 traits that effect it and all 3 of them are grand master options. EE has 1 master trait and 1 grand master trait. The other minors in-between i would not consider a direct focus to EE because they effect skills throughout all of Engi's damage options as a whole that happen to be classed as explosions. I personally wouldn't consider this heavy focus for EE but if we still must classify it like that its likely still warranted for nerfs in the eyes of others based on trait lines like invoke torment with a cd of some kind instead of just refreshing on roll. > > > > > > > 2. The traits you listed are generally utility focused in nature. Power Block, for example, increases skill cooldowns by 15 seconds. This is a massive effect, and arguably much more important than the damage it deals. Similarly you could completely remove the damage from Evasive Arcana, and it would still be useful for the heal/cleanse in water, or the blast finisher/cripple in earth. EE's only purpose (baseline) is to deal damage. > > > > > > Power block is an of a stretch and its fair that you call out its other utility. However even if we remove that one example there are still others that are lesser utility based and more damage focused. > > > Some of the others are not and by far are closer to simply put extra damage on hit for example **Chilling nova** which has several combos with several other chill inspired traits in the reaper line does not do anywhere near the damage of EE and has a cooldown. I suppose you could consider that "Utility" in the idea of "Well it extends chill uptime", but then we have to look at a traits like **Blast Shield/Flashbang** and question if taking such traits should considerably reduce EE's damage to be non existent as they add considerable utility to EE procs. > > > > > > Even if we look at it as a baseline to "deal damage" i still argue personally that, maybe... just maybe, the damage should not be able to critically hit like many other passive damage traits. It is an outlier from my and many others perspectives and its no surprise people continue to complain about it. Regardless of how you class EE it sits in its own tier above other similar trait options. While I wont exactly demand EE be nerfed to the floor myself (if anet does nerf it i wont argue against it) I easily understand why people want it nerfed more because it stands far above other similar options. > > > > > > Basically EE is by far one of the best traits of its passive damage type because its does good damage, can do critical damage, is not limited by a cooldown, and can be modified to grant utility via its traits. I might even argue that EE is not directly in need of a nerf, however the traits that modify and grant it utility should be changed so that when they are taken EE's damage becomes less effective as they add considerable utility to EE. I only say this because other professions have similar traits that are stand alone adept/master/grand masters with questionably equal or lesser utility that also do less damage, cannot critically hit, and have internal cds. > > > > > > As i said im not going to demand for EE nerfs but at the very least I would propose that taits that add utility to EE change the base skill of EE reducing its damage in some way either removing the ability to critically strike or giving it a flat icd. > > > > > > > I'm just going to make one observation. Considering EE is a power focused trait, and Invoke Torment is a condition focused trait which do you think deals more **power damage**? > > > > If you guessed, EE, you'd be incorrect. Invoke torment does more power damage than EE **on top of the conditions in inflicts**. Even if you granted that it's effect cannot be accessed as frequently, it more than makes up for it in how powerful the effect is per application. > > I will have to test in game (incase the wiki tool tip is off) but I dont think you are correct here. (unless it really is off) > base 121 with a .33 cof strike damage on Inv.Torment > vs > base 239 with a .90 cof strike damage on EE > You would be lucky to see Inv. Torment do half as much as EE with base numbers like these to be honest with you. > Based on the pvp only scaling incase you peeked at the wrong thing but that does not seems like a mistake you would make so I'll assume there is a high chance the wiki tool tip is wrong and give it a look in game later. > > In total damage yes Inv. Torment will do more as it also applies a torment stack (assuming it sticks for the full duration) > How ever its also limited to the 10s cool down and basically a small area outside of melee range. > > > > > To pair off the benefits of both > > > > Invoke Torment > > - Does more power damage > Will have to confirm this later. > > - Has more powerful (traited) effects. It can apply hard hitting conditions, transfer conditions, and/or grant resistance. > You can only pick 1 of these not all 3. > 1 just adds damage which is fine for a grandmaster > 2 grants 1s of resistance the utility here is basically does not exists which is why its not often used. > 3 grants decent utility as a transfer but based on what im told can be clunky at times > > - Is generally used on cooldown. Rev's are incintevised to legend swap as close to on CD as possible to gain the maximum amount of energy regeneration. > > This is kind of situational while you are correct its not always the case that they can swap ontop of you and then there is still the matter of the cd using it as often as posible does not make the cd not exists I personally view EE being an auto refresh on 10s cd as more balanced than it currently is right now. I wont demand the idea but im also not against it i just think it would be more fair by comparison of other trait standards throughout the game. > > > Explosive Entrance > > - Has a shorter cooldown (Variable based on how close to on CD the engineer dodges) > > - With Flashbang, has a CC effect attatched (above 90% health). Blinds below 90% health > > - Applies weak barrier (traited) > > Unlike the pervious both can be taken at the same time regardless of how strong one views the benefits of adding the utility it still adds utility. > Especially in the case of flashbang triggering a cc which the majority of which should not be dealing damage at this point. That trait in itself does make EE an outlier among many things as anets goal was to basically not have instant cc attacks doing 3-5k damage or more which EE was doing it can probably still hit close to 5k on light armors. > Yes I understand the cc only triggers on basically max health targets but this is still not a fact to be ignored. > > My question is still why do other traits that have damage procing effects not have anywhere near close to the damage of EE with its utility trait addons or why adding utility to EE does not reduce its damage similarly to other traits. > > Anet, allegedly, standardized them to not be both on hit proc damage and utility in pvp. This is why people want EE nerfed more because it breaks the standard for most of the skills they have that do act in a similar way. > While not all those traits have an entire line or 2-3 parts of trait line pointing at a minor trait like EE does, this is only because EE is still for the most part is new in the game from the explosives rework so its been a sore spot for people for while as it was doing far higher numbers than what it is now and many people still consider 3-5k too high for a on hit proc. > > I would argue the same for Inv. torment to be honest if it was bursting people for more than 3-5k instantly while transferring conditions for example. > (I will do more research on inv. torment next time i log on just to see what kind of raw numbers it can hit) > I'm just saying... > I understand the "why" people want it toned down more still because in comparison to many other things its still hitting hard even with the minor/major utilities attached onto it. > Hold up a second, you are right. I wasn't aware of the skill split. This puts EE comfortably ahead of it in terms of power damage. Factoring that in, EE should be the strongest trait of it's type in terms of raw dps. With this in mind EE is (objectively) overperforming as far as on hit procs go. It still lags behind in utility in comparison to traits like Power Block, but it's leagues ahead in damage. It's worth asking why traits like IT and Power Block are considered acceptable while EE is not. It could have its power damage reduced in exchange for a bit of utility, ideally proccing in a way that is more active in nature. This is something I'll have to think on, but for now, you can I can both agree that it is a problem in it's current iteration. In the interest of not gutting core engi further It is worth looking into re allocating that power into healthier areas, but solutions will need to be simple and easy to execute, given how Anet has been approaching balance lately. If no easy solution can be found, the most easiest solution is to standardize it at a 0.5 coeff. When factoring in the explosive synergy it has with the rest of the line, this would put it in line with Reckless Dodge. (They could take that extra 0.4 coefficient and put it back into nade barrage so that it hits harder than Shrapnel Grenade again. Rounded up that's +0.07 per nade. It would still be a nerf overall, since EE has a much shorter cooldown, but it would buff back a skill that should be the hardest hitter in the nade kit). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZDragon.3046 Posted February 12, 2021 Share Posted February 12, 2021 > @"Kuma.1503" said: > > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > > @"Kuma.1503" said: > > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > > > > @"Kuma.1503" said: > > > > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > > > > > > @"Kuma.1503" said: > > > > > > > > @"CutesySylveon.8290" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Kuma.1503" said: > > > > > > > > > The forums: "That does too much damage. .9 is too much. Nerf it so it doesn't do so much damage" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Also the fourms: "kitten, why won't these bunkers die. It's obviously the passive sustain" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *Another build pops up that does relevant damage* > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The Forums: "Quick nerf that too!" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's a minor passive trait, we can all agree that things like Reckless Dodge did too much damage pre Feb so why is only one able to do those levels of damage? It's not just damage but what's doing it that's the issue, and this is without the absolute ridiculousness that is Flashbang. We were all joking before the last nerf to Flashbang that it would just be a blind duration nerf and that's exactly what happened. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Standing in Spirit Sword and dying is one thing, being hit for 3k from any hit, including CC, because somebody dodged is a bit much. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 3k damage (.9 power coeff) Is less damage than a mortar kit auto. Which an engineer can spam on node safely from 1500 range. It's a bit of icing on the cake on top of their burst, but nothing rediculous. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The existance of passive damage isn't a problem in itself. I reckon a ranger does far more with their pet (reminder, smokescale can passively knockdown), and a guardian does far more over time with their passive burns, neither of which requires any trait investment. Why is this so much worse? Because it requires endurance to activate? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is not the best comparison to be honest if anet has any kind of balancing standard EE shouldnt be anywhere near as strong as it is in pvp. > > > > > > Keep in mind a rangers pet more kin to the f skills which would be more like comparing it to extra damage that comes from engi's tool bet skills (many which are instant and can be combo'ed with other skills) > > > > > > > > > > > > EE should be based closer to other traits that grant passive damage from doing an action or on hit passive procs. > > > > > > Ergo > > > > > > EE should ideally be looking closer to traits like > > > > > > Reckless dodge (Warrior) > > > > > > Mark of Evasion (Necro) > > > > > > Evasive Arcana (Ele) > > > > > > > > > > > > We could even say it could be closer to traits like > > > > > > Power Block (Mesmer) > > > > > > Chill of Death (Necro) > > > > > > Chilling Nova (Necro/Reaper) > > > > > > Wrath of Justice (Guardian) > > > > > > > > > > > > Keep in mind most of these examples do not do critical damage (many of them hardly do damage at all) and are selectable adept, master, or grandmaster examples while EE is the first Minor trait in the explosive line. > > > > > > The fact that EE refreshes on dodge, does critical damage, and can be made to blind without reducing its damage makes it considerably stronger than other traits that easily fit into a similar (on hit proc or on hit of certain action) options on other professions. > > > > > > > > > > > > Thats just how I look at the situation. Other professions have had their passive on hit proc triats reduced to basically tickle damage while EE basically acts like a proper extra skill. This is why people still say it needs a nerf. They want their on hit passives to have their damage back and be able to critically hit or they want EE in the same tier. Even more so because its a minor and many of the things I listed above are as i said Adept, Master, and Grand master options. > > > > > > > > > > EE is different than the traits you mentioned for two major reasons > > > > > > > > > > 1. It is also the only trait listed here to be a **major focus in an entire traitline**. It's given similar treatment to effects like **Invoke torment**. A passive effect which is focused on heavily throughout the Corruption traitline. It can be traited to deal massive damage (even more than EE) with traits like Diabolic Inferno, or transfer conditions. I'd argue this is the best comparison because these two traits were both results of traitline reworks, they were introduced in the same patch. Both are passive effects which play a central role through out their respective traitlines. Both can be further augmented with additional effects. > > > > > > > > I would still say that EE is over performing a good bit even with this example. Invoke torment is a 1 off every 10s at best. EE has really only 2 extra traits that modify it. I personally would not call this a whole trainline heavily focusing on it I wouldnt say the same for Invoke torment either. Its not necessary focused through the entire line more like it has a few traits that modify it or boost it to be even stronger which is likely a warrant for its base to not be as strong as it is to be frank with you. > > > > > > > > Even if we look at examples like Invoke torment with like the most extremes there are only 3 traits that effect it and all 3 of them are grand master options. EE has 1 master trait and 1 grand master trait. The other minors in-between i would not consider a direct focus to EE because they effect skills throughout all of Engi's damage options as a whole that happen to be classed as explosions. I personally wouldn't consider this heavy focus for EE but if we still must classify it like that its likely still warranted for nerfs in the eyes of others based on trait lines like invoke torment with a cd of some kind instead of just refreshing on roll. > > > > > > > > > 2. The traits you listed are generally utility focused in nature. Power Block, for example, increases skill cooldowns by 15 seconds. This is a massive effect, and arguably much more important than the damage it deals. Similarly you could completely remove the damage from Evasive Arcana, and it would still be useful for the heal/cleanse in water, or the blast finisher/cripple in earth. EE's only purpose (baseline) is to deal damage. > > > > > > > > Power block is an of a stretch and its fair that you call out its other utility. However even if we remove that one example there are still others that are lesser utility based and more damage focused. > > > > Some of the others are not and by far are closer to simply put extra damage on hit for example **Chilling nova** which has several combos with several other chill inspired traits in the reaper line does not do anywhere near the damage of EE and has a cooldown. I suppose you could consider that "Utility" in the idea of "Well it extends chill uptime", but then we have to look at a traits like **Blast Shield/Flashbang** and question if taking such traits should considerably reduce EE's damage to be non existent as they add considerable utility to EE procs. > > > > > > > > Even if we look at it as a baseline to "deal damage" i still argue personally that, maybe... just maybe, the damage should not be able to critically hit like many other passive damage traits. It is an outlier from my and many others perspectives and its no surprise people continue to complain about it. Regardless of how you class EE it sits in its own tier above other similar trait options. While I wont exactly demand EE be nerfed to the floor myself (if anet does nerf it i wont argue against it) I easily understand why people want it nerfed more because it stands far above other similar options. > > > > > > > > Basically EE is by far one of the best traits of its passive damage type because its does good damage, can do critical damage, is not limited by a cooldown, and can be modified to grant utility via its traits. I might even argue that EE is not directly in need of a nerf, however the traits that modify and grant it utility should be changed so that when they are taken EE's damage becomes less effective as they add considerable utility to EE. I only say this because other professions have similar traits that are stand alone adept/master/grand masters with questionably equal or lesser utility that also do less damage, cannot critically hit, and have internal cds. > > > > > > > > As i said im not going to demand for EE nerfs but at the very least I would propose that taits that add utility to EE change the base skill of EE reducing its damage in some way either removing the ability to critically strike or giving it a flat icd. > > > > > > > > > > I'm just going to make one observation. Considering EE is a power focused trait, and Invoke Torment is a condition focused trait which do you think deals more **power damage**? > > > > > > If you guessed, EE, you'd be incorrect. Invoke torment does more power damage than EE **on top of the conditions in inflicts**. Even if you granted that it's effect cannot be accessed as frequently, it more than makes up for it in how powerful the effect is per application. > > > > I will have to test in game (incase the wiki tool tip is off) but I dont think you are correct here. (unless it really is off) > > base 121 with a .33 cof strike damage on Inv.Torment > > vs > > base 239 with a .90 cof strike damage on EE > > You would be lucky to see Inv. Torment do half as much as EE with base numbers like these to be honest with you. > > Based on the pvp only scaling incase you peeked at the wrong thing but that does not seems like a mistake you would make so I'll assume there is a high chance the wiki tool tip is wrong and give it a look in game later. > > > > In total damage yes Inv. Torment will do more as it also applies a torment stack (assuming it sticks for the full duration) > > How ever its also limited to the 10s cool down and basically a small area outside of melee range. > > > > > > > > To pair off the benefits of both > > > > > > Invoke Torment > > > - Does more power damage > > Will have to confirm this later. > > > - Has more powerful (traited) effects. It can apply hard hitting conditions, transfer conditions, and/or grant resistance. > > You can only pick 1 of these not all 3. > > 1 just adds damage which is fine for a grandmaster > > 2 grants 1s of resistance the utility here is basically does not exists which is why its not often used. > > 3 grants decent utility as a transfer but based on what im told can be clunky at times > > > - Is generally used on cooldown. Rev's are incintevised to legend swap as close to on CD as possible to gain the maximum amount of energy regeneration. > > > > This is kind of situational while you are correct its not always the case that they can swap ontop of you and then there is still the matter of the cd using it as often as posible does not make the cd not exists I personally view EE being an auto refresh on 10s cd as more balanced than it currently is right now. I wont demand the idea but im also not against it i just think it would be more fair by comparison of other trait standards throughout the game. > > > > > Explosive Entrance > > > - Has a shorter cooldown (Variable based on how close to on CD the engineer dodges) > > > - With Flashbang, has a CC effect attatched (above 90% health). Blinds below 90% health > > > - Applies weak barrier (traited) > > > > Unlike the pervious both can be taken at the same time regardless of how strong one views the benefits of adding the utility it still adds utility. > > Especially in the case of flashbang triggering a cc which the majority of which should not be dealing damage at this point. That trait in itself does make EE an outlier among many things as anets goal was to basically not have instant cc attacks doing 3-5k damage or more which EE was doing it can probably still hit close to 5k on light armors. > > Yes I understand the cc only triggers on basically max health targets but this is still not a fact to be ignored. > > > > My question is still why do other traits that have damage procing effects not have anywhere near close to the damage of EE with its utility trait addons or why adding utility to EE does not reduce its damage similarly to other traits. > > > > Anet, allegedly, standardized them to not be both on hit proc damage and utility in pvp. This is why people want EE nerfed more because it breaks the standard for most of the skills they have that do act in a similar way. > > While not all those traits have an entire line or 2-3 parts of trait line pointing at a minor trait like EE does, this is only because EE is still for the most part is new in the game from the explosives rework so its been a sore spot for people for while as it was doing far higher numbers than what it is now and many people still consider 3-5k too high for a on hit proc. > > > > I would argue the same for Inv. torment to be honest if it was bursting people for more than 3-5k instantly while transferring conditions for example. > > (I will do more research on inv. torment next time i log on just to see what kind of raw numbers it can hit) > > I'm just saying... > > I understand the "why" people want it toned down more still because in comparison to many other things its still hitting hard even with the minor/major utilities attached onto it. > > > > Hold up a second, you are right. I wasn't aware of the skill split. This puts EE comfortably ahead of it in terms of power damage. Factoring that in, EE should be the strongest trait of it's type in terms of raw dps. > > With this in mind EE is (objectively) overperforming as far as on hit procs go. It still lags behind in utility in comparison to traits like Power Block, but it's leagues ahead in damage. > I was literally in game testing this not too long ago and yea on assassin ammulet with no rune and no might stacks i was getting raw crit strike numbers like 700 on light, 650 on medium and 590 on heavy for invoke torment 1.3k on light, 1.1k on medium and 900ish on heavy for EE If Invoke torment had been doing more or equal raw damage i would have came back here and said "Yeah thats doing way too much too" > It's worth asking why traits like IT and Power Block are considered acceptable while EE is not. It could have its power damage reduced in exchange for a bit of utility, ideally proccing in a way that is more active in nature. Well invoke torment may also need another looking into but part of my suspicion as to why its ok is because - its got a 10s cd no matter how you spin it - its basically only gonna hit in near melee range When considering power block its had lots of changes over time and it use to be BEYOND BUSTED how ever while it does provide considerable utility advantage to the caster if they interrupt by locking out interrupted skills. - it cant deal critical damage That one factor alone makes a massive difference in how people view a skill if something can crit its damage can be amplified many times over vs a skill that cannot crit. Skills that cant crit basically do damage just to confirm you got hit at this point in my opinion. Damage wise i think powerblock is fine personally I dont have issues with it. Its super annoying to fight against but I dont take issue with the strike damage it deals. A better outlier to ask why its ok is a trait like Lightning rod which basically acts very similar to powre block but wit ha twist. Instead of locking out the skills for a longer period it it just deals damage and applies weakness but can actually critically hit so it can often do good chunks of damage while a player is being cc'ed back to back. It also does not specifically require a interrupt its just any time a cc successfully disables the target. While it is limtied by the cd's of the cc's themselves its one that probably stands as a close second place to EE in terms of "why is this hitting so hard so frequently." I would argue that if EE was already weaker than it currently is you would see people talking more about it instead of EE. > > This is something I'll have to think on, but for now, you can I can both agree that it is a problem in it's current iteration. In the interest of not gutting core engi further It is worth looking into re allocating that power into healthier areas, but solutions will need to be simple and easy to execute, given how Anet has been approaching balance lately. If no easy solution can be found, the most easiest solution is to standardize it at a 0.5 coeff. When factoring in the explosive synergy it has with the rest of the line, this would put it in line with Reckless Dodge. Yes we can agree its a bit problematic.... its one of those traits that's fun by design but a bit hard to control and keep it fun to use. Anet often comes up with amazing skills and traits but they end up being problems later on after the player base gets their hands on them. This usually leads to the destruction of those skills and traits so players just wont use them outside of memeing. Standardizing effectively would help but not when things get missed like this or the standards are a bit mixed and matched all over the place. I do however think its a minor problem at the moment and not the biggest on the list for sure there are far more broken things at the moment than EE in my personal opinion. There should be, technically, many ways anet can standardize it they could reduce the coeff like you suggested, simply not allow it to crit and keep its higher coeff or even increase it back to what it was previously, apply a cd instead of letting it refresh on dodge roll, or look at increasing the utility traits that stack on top of it in exchange for having the added utility reduce its damage base on the utility gained (when you opt to take those traits only). I have always had a problem with how anet tends to try to standardize things and often misses one or two things which stand out especially when they are things that tend to act some what similar like on hit proc or dodge roll traits being the examples in this case. The things they miss tend to often be the things people want nerfed some times the people are justified in their opinions. I've been on the receiving end of EE dazing and blinding me and knocking off 5k or more of my hp from just an auto attack and thats playing a profession with higher base vitality even on glass amulets. That happening to other professions with base 11k hp is gonna be even more painful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonidrex.5649 Posted February 13, 2021 Share Posted February 13, 2021 > @"Kuma.1503" said: > > @"CutesySylveon.8290" said: > > > @"Kuma.1503" said: > > > The forums: "That does too much damage. .9 is too much. Nerf it so it doesn't do so much damage" > > > > > > Also the fourms: "kitten, why won't these bunkers die. It's obviously the passive sustain" > > > > > > *Another build pops up that does relevant damage* > > > > > > The Forums: "Quick nerf that too!" > > > > > > > > > > It's a minor passive trait, we can all agree that things like Reckless Dodge did too much damage pre Feb so why is only one able to do those levels of damage? It's not just damage but what's doing it that's the issue, and this is without the absolute ridiculousness that is Flashbang. We were all joking before the last nerf to Flashbang that it would just be a blind duration nerf and that's exactly what happened. > > > > Standing in Spirit Sword and dying is one thing, being hit for 3k from any hit, including CC, because somebody dodged is a bit much. > > 3k damage (.9 power coeff) Is less damage than a mortar kit auto. Which an engineer can spam on node safely from 1500 range. It's a bit of icing on the cake on top of their burst, but nothing rediculous. > > The existance of passive damage isn't a problem in itself. I reckon a ranger does far more with their pet (reminder, smokescale can passively knockdown), and a guardian does far more over time with their passive burns, neither of which requires any trait investment. Why is this so much worse? Because it requires endurance to activate? > > the fact that you can compare minor trait in damage to a pet, entire fucking class mechanic lol. dont forget ranger takes entire fucking trait-line to make them like they are, and core ranger even takes marksmanship to futher improve pets through attack of oportunity and opening strikes ( gazelle/jaracanda has about 33% crit chance so opening strikes are huge damage boost there ) EE alone is busted, and when you combine it with all other fucking bonuses it gets even worse, it blinds, dazes, applies vulnerability. on scrapper it gives barrier, barrier is increased through scrapper traitline, deals damage to give futher barrier. By itself its already stronger then other traits of its kind, but it also has man, many other synergies that push it over the top. But whatever, devs shot themselves in the foot by making explosives how they are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonidrex.5649 Posted February 13, 2021 Share Posted February 13, 2021 @"Kuma.1503" PB is fine cuz it takes effort to use, rewards skill-full use while not rewarding poor use, and more rounded active trait, rather then over the top do it all passive spam trait. mesmer being a dead class has a huge part in it too lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuma.1503 Posted February 13, 2021 Share Posted February 13, 2021 > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > @"Kuma.1503" > PB is fine cuz it takes effort to use, rewards skill-full use while not rewarding poor use, and more rounded active trait, rather then over the top do it all passive spam trait. > mesmer being a dead class has a huge part in it too lol. It's one of my favorite traits tbh. It rewards proper timing and predictions. I wouldn't mind EE being reworked into something similar. Something you can use more mindfully. I was doing some brainstorming, and I came up with one appealing sounding idea. It would take some effort on the dev's part to impliment, but it could help to round out Engi's core kit. Instead of "deal damage on hit after you dodge" what if explosive entrance was literally an explosive entrance... ... ... or exit. To activate, perform a dodge jump. You will be rocketed forward a set distance in the direction you dodge, evading and dealing damage at both your starting and ending location. Instead of a cooldown, give it 3 seconds of Exhaustion. This would add some additional risk while also adding a bit of a trade-off vs dodging regularly. Because this is a set distance, there will be skillfullness in learning the range so you can land it. Not to mention... it would be fun to use. It will change how you interact with terrain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kodama.6453 Posted February 13, 2021 Share Posted February 13, 2021 @"Leonidrex.5649" And core engineer is also a dead class, so why can't we let it have something good for once? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuma.1503 Posted February 13, 2021 Share Posted February 13, 2021 > @"Kodama.6453" said: > @"Leonidrex.5649" > And core engineer is also a dead class, so why can't we let it have something good for once? > > I brought it up in the thief thread, and I'd be a hypocrite if I didn't mention it here. As far as Anet is concerned... if it's overperforming on the elite spec, it's overperforming on **every spec**. Hate to say it because, frankly, seeing core engi suffer for Holo's sins got old a long time ago. At least I can laugh cynically when it happens to other classes (lul thief) now. Shame I don't have a cat or a monocle because this would make for a sick villain origin story. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CutesySylveon.8290 Posted February 13, 2021 Share Posted February 13, 2021 > @"Kodama.6453" said: > @"Leonidrex.5649" > And core engineer is also a dead class, so why can't we let it have something good for once? > > Core engi could potentially keep the current version of EE of it takes a massive nerf when explosives is used with an elite, like they did for Scourge F2 corrupting 2 boons with Path of Corruption. Now it only corrupts 1 with Scourge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonidrex.5649 Posted February 13, 2021 Share Posted February 13, 2021 > @"Kuma.1503" said: > > @"Kodama.6453" said: > > @"Leonidrex.5649" > > And core engineer is also a dead class, so why can't we let it have something good for once? > > > > > > I brought it up in the thief thread, and I'd be a hypocrite if I didn't mention it here. As far as Anet is concerned... if it's overperforming on the elite spec, it's overperforming on **every spec**. > > Hate to say it because, frankly, seeing core engi suffer for Holo's sins got old a long time ago. > > At least I can laugh cynically when it happens to other classes (lul thief) now. Shame I don't have a cat or a monocle because this would make for a sick villain origin story. :D > @"Kuma.1503" said: > > @"Kodama.6453" said: > > @"Leonidrex.5649" > > And core engineer is also a dead class, so why can't we let it have something good for once? > > > > > > I brought it up in the thief thread, and I'd be a hypocrite if I didn't mention it here. As far as Anet is concerned... if it's overperforming on the elite spec, it's overperforming on **every spec**. > > Hate to say it because, frankly, seeing core engi suffer for Holo's sins got old a long time ago. > > At least I can laugh cynically when it happens to other classes (lul thief) now. Shame I don't have a cat or a monocle because this would make for a sick villain origin story. :D or they could balance core properly, having OP EE alone clearly doesnt work nerf the OP shit and give them a reason to be played, add a proper trade-off to the elites and they might buff other core related things and make it viable. EDIT you dont have to be 140IQ to make things like that. remove their elite F skill, replace it with a KIT skill, you place any 1 kit you want in there, give it a cooldown and all the kit skills from it are empowered. I srsl could see something like this fun as fuck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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