Thief 3rd espec "Trickster"

[Lurana.7506]

Hi, I came up with this idea in another post and I wanted to share this. Mind you, it's just an idea I thought of half a minute, so it hasmany unfinished points. But what do you think in general?

 

"Trickster" support espec: Thiefs gain the ability to steal boons from foes (f1 skill) filling up a bar (like druid and celestial avatar) until it is full. Then they can give boons to allies with f2 skill. But they can't grand all boons. Instead they can switch between 3 types of boons: utility (alacrity, swiftness, ...), survival (regeneration, aegis, ...) and offensive (might, fury,...). They switch via f3, f4 and f5 skills. I don't know if it would be better to let them freely switch in combat or if they need to be out of combat to switch. If they can switch in combat, the bar empties when they do.

Some of their utility skills fill the bar as well: they gain "trickster" abilities, tricking foes to dispossess them of their boons. Other trickster abilities convert conditions a foe suffers from into boons so the thief can steal them afterwards. The weapon will either be a focus or a warhorn.

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

The problem is, most of what you have written can currently be done on a deadeye if built correctly, with the advantage of 1500 range. I really think ANet have painted themselves into a corner with elite specs, as honestly there isn't much more you can add to thief while keeping the thief flavour.

 

Edit; the other problem is that boons should be rare but powerful, but instead they are just powerful. You'd have to see an overall decrease in boon application for boon rip to shine, especially since the last big patch that nerfed our boon rip options from what they used to be. Pre patch you could reliably create windows to damage boon builds, now it's very hit and miss.

[Taril.8619]

> @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said:

> I really think ANet have painted themselves into a corner with elite specs, as honestly there isn't much more you can add to thief while keeping the thief flavour.

 

Not really. Especially if you broaden your horizons from purely "Thief" into more of "Rogue".

 

Which was done for Deadeye. DE isn't "Thief". You don't even steal anything. You mark targets and get a spell to cast from it (As opposed to Core Thief and Daredevil which still steals items from enemies)

 

Under the "Rogue" archetype, there's tons of stuff that can be done with Thief that would be thematically appropriate:

 

- Bard (Minstrel, Dirge, Troubador)

- Pirate (Swashbuckler, Brigand, Corsair)

- Bandit (Marauder, Outlaw, Mercenary)

- Scout (Vanguard, Wanderer, Pathfinder)

- Gambler (Cardsharp, Scoundrel, Swindler)

 

Etc.

 

> @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said:

> Edit; the other problem is that boons should be rare but powerful, but instead they are just powerful. You'd have to see an overall decrease in boon application for boon rip to shine, especially since the last big patch that nerfed our boon rip options from what they used to be. Pre patch you could reliably create windows to damage boon builds, now it's very hit and miss.

 

Yeah, boon rip that isn't spammed to heck like Mesmer Sword clones is almost useless these days what with classes like Firebrand and Herald farting out boons left and right...

 

Meanwhile, boon rip is actually useless in PvE because barely anything even generates boons (Heck, it's one of the contributing factors to Necro's anemic performance in PvE, the lack of anything for their ~12 billion boon corrupt effects to do anything on)

[Tails.9372]

I'd like to see Holomancer as a thief spec: "a scepter wielding thief that uses holograms to deceive their target" would actually fit perfectly with the overacting theme of the "profession".

 

I'd also like to see an e-spec based on dual pistol. A typical western themed gunslinger bandit would fit perfectly with the theme of the profession. P/P as a weapon set also needs an overhaul so that would be the IMO (second) best way to go about it.

[Leonidrex.5649]

> @"Tails.9372" said:

> I'd like to see Holomancer as a thief spec: "a scepter wielding thief that uses holograms to deceive their target" would actually fit perfectly with the overacting theme of the "profession".

>

> I'd also like to see an e-spec based on dual pistol. A typical western themed gunslinger bandit would fit perfectly with the theme of the profession. P/P as a weapon set also needs an overhaul so that would be the IMO (second) best way to go about it.

 

that sounds like mesmer with extra steps

[Kodama.6453]

My personal opinion: I would like thief to get a supportive elite spec that also fills the "minion master" niche.

 

Thief is one of just two classes left in this game without some minion utility type (the other is warrior).

Especially considering that we are going to Cantha next, the theme I would have in mind for that elite spec would be something like an Oyabun (this is the title of yakuza bosses). Considering that gangs used to fight in the underground of Kaineng, I think this would fit the new setting nicely.

 

You become the leader of your own little gang, the utility skills are different gang members you can summon to support your team.

Weapon choice could be mace or mace.

 

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

> @"Taril.8619" said:

> > @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said:

> > I really think ANet have painted themselves into a corner with elite specs, as honestly there isn't much more you can add to thief while keeping the thief flavour.

>

> Not really. Especially if you broaden your horizons from purely "Thief" into more of "Rogue".

>

> Which was done for Deadeye. DE isn't "Thief". You don't even steal anything. You mark targets and get a spell to cast from it (As opposed to Core Thief and Daredevil which still steals items from enemies)

>

> Under the "Rogue" archetype, there's tons of stuff that can be done with Thief that would be thematically appropriate:

>

> - Bard (Minstrel, Dirge, Troubador)

> - Pirate (Swashbuckler, Brigand, Corsair)

> - Bandit (Marauder, Outlaw, Mercenary)

> - Scout (Vanguard, Wanderer, Pathfinder)

> - Gambler (Cardsharp, Scoundrel, Swindler)

>

> Etc.

 

That's fair enough, I guess my thoughts were more along diversity of game mechanics rather than themes. You are correct that thematically there are several places they can go, but how would they feel different mechanically to what we already have, while also feeling like a rogue? If the diversity comes from new steal mechanics and weapon sets, then I could see Bard for a support themed spec. That said, Pirate/Bandit would almost certainly get offhand sword or shield, both would have too much overlap with current acro sword builds to be distinct imo. Gambler could be a chance to go into totally new territory with no worries tho, I like that idea. The problem with elite specs imo is that the more you add to a class, the more redundancy you create (think vanilla acrobatics/feline grace vs daredevil, or basically anything in kits for engi vs scrapper or holo).

 

It's also possible I'm a bit jaded, having played this game for years and currently being on a break to replay the elder scrolls games for nostalgia. So take what I say in that light haha.

 

> > @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said:

> > Edit; the other problem is that boons should be rare but powerful, but instead they are just powerful. You'd have to see an overall decrease in boon application for boon rip to shine, especially since the last big patch that nerfed our boon rip options from what they used to be. Pre patch you could reliably create windows to damage boon builds, now it's very hit and miss.

>

> Yeah, boon rip that isn't spammed to heck like Mesmer Sword clones is almost useless these days what with classes like Firebrand and Herald farting out boons left and right...

>

> Meanwhile, boon rip is actually useless in PvE because barely anything even generates boons (Heck, it's one of the contributing factors to Necro's anemic performance in PvE, the lack of anything for their ~12 billion boon corrupt effects to do anything on)

 

Yeah, you're not wrong, the mechanic and numbers of boons ripped are not balanced well between modes. Rending shade for instance, it steals two boons in PvE where boons are scarce, but since the big patch it only rips one boon in WvW and PvP where ripping protection for a decent spike is pretty necessary.

[Taril.8619]

> @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said:

> That's fair enough, I guess my thoughts were more along diversity of game mechanics rather than themes. You are correct that thematically there are several places they can go, but how would they feel different mechanically to what we already have, while also feeling like a rogue? If the diversity comes from new steal mechanics and weapon sets, then I could see Bard for a support themed spec. That said, Pirate/Bandit would almost certainly get offhand sword or shield, both would have too much overlap with current acro sword builds to be distinct imo. Gambler could be a chance to go into totally new territory with no worries tho, I like that idea. The problem with elite specs imo is that the more you add to a class, the more redundancy you create (think vanilla acrobatics/feline grace vs daredevil, or basically anything in kits for engi vs scrapper or holo).

>

> It's also possible I'm a bit jaded, having played this game for years and currently being on a break to replay the elder scrolls games for nostalgia. So take what I say in that light haha.

 

There's a lot of design space to work with to be honest.

 

For a start, there's no Condi E-Spec for Thief and the only Condi weapon set up Thief has right now is P/D. So something could be done there to shake things up, especially if it focuses around alternate Condi's instead of Bleed (I've seen a few suggestions of Torch OH Thief for example, which could use Burning)

 

I've also thought about some sort of "Duelist"/"Fencer" type Thief E-Spec, where their off-hand slot is empty and simply provides a Sigil slot and they get a new Skill 3, 4 and 5 for MH weapons (Pistol, Dagger, Sword)

 

Pirate could focus around dirty tricks and bombs. Possibly even ending up with Axe(/Axe) as its weapons.

 

Bandit could get Mace(/Mace) and be focused more around debuffs/CC. Slamming people with Vulnerability, Weakness, Cripple, Daze and some Stun. Potentially with Steal replaced by a simple attack or 2, creating a sort of Thief/Warrior hybrid class.

 

As far as the creation of redundancy, that's simply because ANet won't update the core specializations, so many of them are stuck being utter trash, especially when compared to E-Specs.

 

In addition, updating core specializations can increase the scope of what E-Specs can do, by limiting the number of traits that rely on specifically core class mechanics (I.e. If Thief didn't have traits that made their Steal do damage/apply conditions/daze then it would open up the potential to have an E-Spec that has an F1 that targets allies or is a targeted AoE instead (Also, it's super simple to make such a change, since you can just make it "After stealing your next attack applies X"))

[Tails.9372]

> @"Taril.8619" said:

> As far as the creation of redundancy, that's simply because ANet won't update the core specializations, so many of them are stuck being utter trash, especially when compared to E-Specs.

That's because e-specs have more focus. They are developed with a certain gameplay in mind that the weapon, the skills and the traits support. Regular specs don't have that kind of luxury. Take pistol, signets and critical strikes for example, there is little to no synergy here unless you play P/P and even then there is no underlying play style here. Signets don't even have an elite skill, this would be unthinkable for an e-spec. Why are the bonus effects of Signets of Power not "on crit" procs? I agree, core specs and the things they are related to should get an "update" or in some cases more of an overhaul.

[Taril.8619]

> @"Tails.9372" said:

> > @"Taril.8619" said:

> > As far as the creation of redundancy, that's simply because ANet won't update the core specializations, so many of them are stuck being utter trash, especially when compared to E-Specs.

> That's because e-specs have more focus. They are developed with a certain gameplay in mind that the weapon, the skills and the traits support. Regular specs don't have that kind of luxury. Take pistol, signets and critical strikes for example, there is little to no synergy here unless you play P/P and even then there is no underlying play style here. Signets don't even have an elite skill, this would be unthinkable for an e-spec. Why are the bonus effects of Signets of Power not "on crit" procs? I agree, core specs and the things they are related to should get an "update" or in some cases more of an overhaul.

 

It's more than that.

 

Core Specs suffer from bad traits, bad choices (I.e. Ele Water GM is 3x support traits) and outdated design (I.e. They are from a time when boons, especially potent ones like Quickness and Alacrity, were rare)

 

In addition some of the issues with core specs is that they **are** too focused. That they are literally only designed for 1 particular build (For example, Necro Curses is pretty useless outside of Condi builds), while many E-Specs are more flexible in their usage because they lack this hyper-focused design, for example;

 

- Power, Condi or Heal **Tempest**

- Power or Condi **Weaver**

- Power or Condi **Berserker**

- Power or Condi **Soulbeast**

- Power, Condi or Heal **Scourge**

- Power or Condi **Dragon Hunter**

- Power, Condi, Boonshare or Heal **Firebrand**

- Power, Condi or Boonshare **Chronomancer**

- Power or Condi **Mirage**

- Power, Condi, Boonshare or Heal **Herald**

- Power, Condi or Boonshare **Renegade**

 

(I'll skip out on Thief, since even though Power/Condi variants of DE/DrD exist, it's more due to the fact that no 3rd spec really provides anything specific for Condi and so you grab whatever utility you prefer)

[Tails.9372]

> @"Taril.8619" said:

> In addition some of the issues with core specs is that they **are** too focused.

I don't mind things being more specific as long as they work for what it is intended e.g. I don't think critical strikes needs to offer something for condi builds as the name already implies a focus on power damage. I also wouldn't mind some traits getting some changes even if that means that they have to be made "too focused" on one specific playstyle to work e.g. I would make Signets of Power "on crit" procs for pistols and harpoon guns only because it would on one hand solve some mayor issues without having to redesign the whole thing but I also think that it would be too much of a buff for other weapon sets and some kind of compromised version just wouldn't have the intended effect.

[Taril.8619]

> @"Tails.9372" said:

> I don't mind things being more specific as long as they work for what it is intended e.g. I don't think critical strikes needs to offer something for condi builds as the name already implies a focus on power damage.

 

You say that, but then we have a ton of Condi on Crit effects.

 

Such as Traits (Barbed Precision, Burning Precision, Bloodlust, Sharpened Edges, Radiant Fire, Sharpshooter, Chemical Rounds, Sharper Images)

As well as Sigils (Earth, Blight, Torment)

 

With several classes having their crit focused lines being condi heavy ones too (Curses, Dueling, Arms, Skirmishing, Radiance, Firearms)

 

Including things like converting Precision into Expertise or Condi Damage. Increased crit chances against targets with conditions on them etc.

 

So, no. The name "Critical Strikes" doesn't really imply a focus on Power damage.

 

Also, yes, being too specific is a bad thing.

 

Since you then end up with 3 traits that do the same thing and you then just pick the 1 that is objectively the best. Which stifles the spec when it is used not to mention stifles overall build diversity because it means you only have 4 (Or less) specs to choose from if you're playing builds that don't fit that exact build the spec is hyper focused on. I.e. Necro never picks Curses outside of a Condi build. Thus, Power and Support builds simply have 4 options for specs to use in their builds. Add in the fact that Death Magic is awful then they only have 3 specs to use. As a result everyone runs Spite + Soul Reaping or Blood Magic + Soul Reaping for their Power/Support builds.

 

 

[Tails.9372]

> @"Taril.8619" said:

> You say that, but then we have a ton of Condi on Crit effects.

For completely different classes which are more based on around these kinds of playstyles.

 

> @"Taril.8619" said:

> Since you then end up with 3 traits that do the same thing and you then just pick the 1 that is objectively the best.

Which is mostly build dependent and what you're after. Take the example I gave earlier, even for the build in question Twin Fangs would still be the superior option for raw damage but with the proposed change Signets of Power would offer a massive QoL improvement so I could see people going for both depending on what they value more.

 

> @"Taril.8619" said:

> Which stifles the spec when it is used not to mention stifles overall build diversity because it means you only have 4 (Or less) specs to choose from if you're playing builds that don't fit that exact build the spec is hyper focused

Being specific ≠ being the same. The term "specialisation" already implies that things get more specific. Also, people are always going for the optimum, having the most important traits you want for your build being spread between multiple specialisations also limits build diversity as you might have to miss out on specialisation C because you have to take specialisation B because specialisation A doesn't cover something important you need for your build.

 

Furthermore I wouldn't call a focus on one of the overarching damage types "hyper specific", you can still divide things even further into e.g. burst vs. sustainable DPS or dmg vs. utility.

 

[Dave.6819]

I just want thief to get a healer spec already. It wouldnt fit thief but atleast it would be useful. These days even in PvE DPS we are starting to fall short.. so just give us some useful spec and people wont have to say "Thief useless sorry i wont take you to raid i prefer BS/DH".

[Taril.8619]

> @"Dave.6819" said:

> I just want thief to get a healer spec already. It wouldnt fit thief but atleast it would be useful.

 

A healer spec could fit Thief. Bard or Chemist could be a healing E-Spec that would be suitably "Thief" flavoured.

 

Bard being an extention of typical Rogueish charisma, utilizing words of power and music to mend wounds and apply boons.

 

Chemist being an extention of Thief's Venom usage, going from Venoms to Salves and Poultices is not a big leap (Not to mention the already existing synergy between Venoms and life gain with Leeching Venoms)

 

> These days even in PvE DPS we are starting to fall short.. so just give us some useful spec and people wont have to say "Thief useless sorry i wont take you to raid i prefer BS/DH".

 

Really, for usefulness, we'd need to be looking for some Boonshare, ideally incorporating either Quickness or Alacrity or both. Quickness and Alacrity would allow Thief to take a spot in end game PvE in lieu of Firebrand or Alacrigade (Both would allow replacement of Chrono), well, so long as 100% uptime was possible as that is the standard set by these 3 E-Specs. Other boons would promote use in WvW Blob battles, where pure healing doesn't cut it (As seen by Druid's low popularity in WvW)

[Dave.6819]

> @"Taril.8619" said:

> > @"Dave.6819" said:

 

> > These days even in PvE DPS we are starting to fall short.. so just give us some useful spec and people wont have to say "Thief useless sorry i wont take you to raid i prefer BS/DH".

>

> Really, for usefulness, we'd need to be looking for some Boonshare, ideally incorporating either Quickness or Alacrity or both. Quickness and Alacrity would allow Thief to take a spot in end game PvE in lieu of Firebrand or Alacrigade (Both would allow replacement of Chrono), well, so long as 100% uptime was possible as that is the standard set by these 3 E-Specs. Other boons would promote use in WvW Blob battles, where pure healing doesn't cut it (As seen by Druid's low popularity in WvW)

 

I'd be down for that too. Something like a shield weapon or a warhorn and some defensive traits that could allow us to be alot more sturdy while providing boons. Alac/quickness. As much as i love thief i gotta say.. people really don't lol. We definitely need supportive builds for thief to become welcome in end-game PvE again. Can't see any other way around it. Only other option would be to bump our DPS high enough that we would be Tier 1 again and no other DPS class could replace us. But at this point i think Thief had enough with dmg. We need somethin more interesting and we need more options. Luranas suggestion was awful tho. We shouldn't rely on stealing boons since there's barely any boons in PvE. Simple AOE shouts or wells should be good enough.

[frareanselm.1925]

Nothing fits better for a thief than the ninja archetype .

I miss in actual thief:

-throwing handy projectiles like the shuriken or kunai.

-having a chain with a cutting edge for semi ranged attacks (kusarigama).

[Legion.4198]

I think that some kind of Magic-Bandit elite specialization (Triad?) that synergizes with Shadow Arts, Trickery, Shadow Stepping and support would be fitting for Cantha. Besides the lawful Assassin Guilds, Cantha has a history with well-organized criminal organizations such as the Jade Sea and the Am Fah which could have easily evolved into secret societies. As for the weapon, I'm going to be unorthodox and suggest the focus for black magic tricks.