xp eke xp.6724 Posted June 17, 2020 Share Posted June 17, 2020 Hello, I had a sort of interresting strategie in mind, but i dont know how well it can be or if its just too difficult and im not that lucky to have mates to test it out on my own :(((((. So here the idea for a 15v15 and i dont know if its possible to use it also on bigger zergs (maybe only on open areas cause you need space!). The actuall meta is all about zerging and fight as 15 mates together, but my Idea is to splitt into 3x5 Teams. Why? - Cause you can build a triangle(3x5) around the zerg, deppending on what side they want to attack the other two teams can start to burst from behind (your basically flanking the zerg all the time!) - We have a dmg hit regulation to maximal 10 players, so if your group is only 5 players, you get less dmg at all (but also every group gets save more dmg so you will maybe need more defence stats!) - also dodges get far better, normally you dont want to dodge if you play as a zerg esp cause this means mostly dmg loose or are just used to get a half step nearlyer, but here you need to dodge, so your team has enough time to react an punish them from the other sides. - Smaller teams are mostly easyer to controll, but you also need 3 good leaders for that on the otherside, one missplay and your fighting a 10v15 esp. if your team doesnt have enough engage potential (maybe all 3 teams need a mesmer with portal^^) - If the zerg plays defensively, you have 3times more tries for "hit and run bursts" - That will be very stressfull for the zerg to fight against if it works (esp if you run in cycles or start mindgames with portals you open just that the next team use it/dont use it) So here the part im not sure if it will bring a new playstile or not: - I dont know if you have still enough defences - It will need 3 leaders instead of one in 3 channels (you dont wanna be shouted by 3 players at the same time xD) - you need to be able to engage - im not sure if this comb does enough dps or if they have to play burst - Zergs could addapt and find a way to abuse it (but the surprice is first on your side) - stealth could break all things - it could also be, that you need someone that coordinate how your team gonna burst/ start the offence ooooor just count your teams in 1,2,3 and team one bursts first the others follows at the timing you think is right So what do you think about it, can this work or are there too much weaknesses? If you like the idea how would you play the 3 teams? (3 times the same comb? are mesmers even needed?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justine.6351 Posted June 17, 2020 Share Posted June 17, 2020 I would imagine leadership would be the shortcoming. Finding 3 leaders in 15 people would amazing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawdler.8521 Posted June 17, 2020 Share Posted June 17, 2020 You start to get into roaming vs zerg build territory at those numbers, so it's doomed to failure. You will **need** zerg builds to make a good 5 man... but you wont be effective at avoiding a train without roaming evade builds. The end result will most likely be that while 5x3 vs 15 sound good in theory, those 15 will have ~5-10 supports carrying the dps, while the smaller groups will have ~1-2 supports carrying the dps. The effect of a cloud formation is that whoever is in front of the enemy train is ineffective at anything outside of evading - you cant facetank 15 enemies with 5. So, while those 15 are running around, you only have 10 that could possibly be effective against them, reducing the amount of dps significantly. All those 15 need to do is having enough support to facetank two of the groups while they pummel the third with far more damage than they can handle. Actually coordinating perfect movement and full effectivness of 3 groups just isnt going to happen naturally. I could *maybe* see it more as a possibility for 5+10 vs 15. 10 would be enough to play against 15 - maybe not win in an extended slugfest, but that will be enough people to survive a push and in turn push the enemy. The 5 would be purpose built harrassers - people that can evade alot, people that can pull out single or multiple targets from the 15 man group and in general act as distractions using blocks/invoulns while the main group is the hammer. This would be **alot** easier to coordinate. Whether it's ultimately *more effective*... who knows. We cant replay the exact scenario with different compositions. That's not WvW. Personally, I've always thought that would actually be easier for the commander - to be able to literally say to a group what to do so that their combined group can do more things at once - not necessarily just talking about a single fight, but overall effective movement on the map rather than just dragging the zerg behind them like a horde of zombies, but I digress. "Effectivness" isnt really the first thing you think about when joining WvW, I guess. We used to encourage more of that in the past with the focus party. You know, before **"EvERyBoDY On CoM oR GtFO oF thE BoRDer, wE nEeD mORe fIReBraNDs!!!111!!"**. Nowadays it mostly happens by accident. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sovereign.1093 Posted June 17, 2020 Share Posted June 17, 2020 Seems like my post didn't post earlier. In team speak we used to do that. Not only with 5 to 5 to 5. But with guilds using the same ts since there's a commander voice option. You can be in your own channel at the same time, do your thing with others via command Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
acidic.4356 Posted June 17, 2020 Share Posted June 17, 2020 limit squads to 15 or 20 max in wvw... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sovereign.1093 Posted June 17, 2020 Share Posted June 17, 2020 > @"acidic.4356" said: > limit squads to 15 or 20 max in wvw... You can :) make it private don't allow ppl to invite. You can have a one man tag to 50. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
acidic.4356 Posted June 17, 2020 Share Posted June 17, 2020 ye but my point is to limit any squad, means more even fights, mayb... more groups possibly, no 50 man k trains... maybe... (altho in reality the smaller squads just hug each other..so ye wudnt work i guess) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enkidu.5937 Posted June 17, 2020 Share Posted June 17, 2020 Zergs usually move in super slow motion, so its not a big thing to get out of range when the zerg starts moving in your direction. Add some superspeed (or port / stealth / invuln) and you dont need other defensive traits ^^ If you get caught your dead anyways, so dont get caught :p Your other groups are free casting, so you only need one guy that calls the coordinated bomb. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawdler.8521 Posted June 17, 2020 Share Posted June 17, 2020 > @"acidic.4356" said: > ye but my point is to limit any squad, means more even fights, mayb... more groups possibly, no 50 man k trains... maybe... (altho in reality the smaller squads just hug each other..so ye wudnt work i guess) It's a fine thought, but you seem to forget that people dont want to fight, they want to win. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sovereign.1093 Posted June 17, 2020 Share Posted June 17, 2020 A long time ago, just by asking ppl to split up got me suspended in the forum. :3 hence my YouTube icon. Haha. Glad this topic is out of the closet. Keke Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xp eke xp.6724 Posted June 17, 2020 Author Share Posted June 17, 2020 thanks guys for the feedback. So the important thinks against the strategie are: - 3 Leaders are hard to find - you still need zerg builds instead of other options. And cause of that you have 5 players that facetank and the other 10 try to finish => less dps So what could be a good way to fix the problems? - Maybe having 3 leaders isnt that important. If you have one that knows how to coordinate the team it could also be enough. You want to still keep the commands as simple as possible, but that also means you need for that strategie new commands and people that understand them. But what commands do you think are needed? - On the second part im just not that deep i needed to be. So i need someone else to prof this part. doesnt matter on what side you want to prof it^^. I really struggle on my own to see/ test this on practice and can only hope someone is willing to try out. And the pro points are: - the smaller team could also use stealth/superspeed and stack them little better. they are also faster then a zerg. So what does it mean for the team? - You will need options to stack stealth/ superspeed to have a good option to outrun zergs or at all very mobile classes What are good options for a 5man team? - Imo i somehow allways have a Mesmer with a portal in mind on each team, but like i said im not so deep in this to stay bulletproof on that. Did i miss something? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vier.1327 Posted June 17, 2020 Share Posted June 17, 2020 The same strategy but with 3 roaming groups. Keep in mind that the group that is being charged by the Zerg have to avoid battle. Never stay together, do not let the Zerg see a group enough big to be charged. You just keep running and the the rest of the group kills sides and back. The Zerg is only strong when is a compact ball, your main goal is to transform the Zerg in a large spaghetti. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shiri.4257 Posted June 17, 2020 Share Posted June 17, 2020 > @"Justine.6351" said: > I would imagine leadership would be the shortcoming. Finding 3 leaders in 15 people would amazing. There are more chiefs than indians in wvw. Just ask teamchat what to do! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strider Pj.2193 Posted June 17, 2020 Share Posted June 17, 2020 > @"shiri.4257" said: > > @"Justine.6351" said: > > I would imagine leadership would be the shortcoming. Finding 3 leaders in 15 people would amazing. > > There are more chiefs than indians in wvw. Just ask teamchat what to do! Your team chat are plebs. Ours tells us whether we ask or not! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avey.4201 Posted June 17, 2020 Share Posted June 17, 2020 > @"acidic.4356" said: > ye but my point is to limit any squad, means more even fights, mayb... more groups possibly, no 50 man k trains... maybe... (altho in reality the smaller squads just hug each other..so ye wudnt work i guess) this used to be what kept k trains off maps, hitting multiple objectives at once, making them split or decide what to lose(2 zergs, and a havok). since all the speed that came with mounts, and mounts passing the speed to nearby players that tactic has failed k train will 50 man the 20 man zergs 1 by one, then hit the havok. with the nerfs to damage, and mount speed, if you can do 2 20 man zergs the second may be able to capture a keep now, but the 50 man zerg will likely be headed into lord room as you finish the capture. problem is, it's a lot of deaths, most commanders run from fights leaving the slower members to die then leave map Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strider Pj.2193 Posted June 17, 2020 Share Posted June 17, 2020 > @"avey.4201" said: > > @"acidic.4356" said: > > ye but my point is to limit any squad, means more even fights, mayb... more groups possibly, no 50 man k trains... maybe... (altho in reality the smaller squads just hug each other..so ye wudnt work i guess) > > this used to be what kept k trains off maps, hitting multiple objectives at once, making them split or decide what to lose(2 zergs, and a havok). > since all the speed that came with mounts, and mounts passing the speed to nearby players that tactic has failed > k train will 50 man the 20 man zergs 1 by one, then hit the havok. > with the nerfs to damage, and mount speed, if you can do 2 20 man zergs the second may be able to capture a keep now, but the 50 man zerg will likely be headed into lord room as you finish the capture. > problem is, it's a lot of deaths, most commanders run from fights leaving the slower members to die then leave map Then those havocs are poor. A decent havoc (And I mean 5-8 max) who runs right will have no problem taking a structure if the enemy zerg is playing elsewhere. Honestly, minus t-3 keeps with EWP, most should be able to have the walls down before people really know what’s going on. Rarely did I see more than a Zerg-ball and a havoc. The mount made a lot of things bad, clearly, but this isn’t one to blame it on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justine.6351 Posted June 17, 2020 Share Posted June 17, 2020 > @"Strider Pj.2193" said: > > @"shiri.4257" said: > > > @"Justine.6351" said: > > > I would imagine leadership would be the shortcoming. Finding 3 leaders in 15 people would amazing. > > > > There are more chiefs than indians in wvw. Just ask teamchat what to do! > > Your team chat are plebs. Ours tells us whether we ask or not! Probably the same people who complain/logout because no tag and when you tell them "so tag up" it's "I would but I can't because [insert totally legit reason]". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawdler.8521 Posted June 18, 2020 Share Posted June 18, 2020 > @"Justine.6351" said: > > @"Strider Pj.2193" said: > > > @"shiri.4257" said: > > > > @"Justine.6351" said: > > > > I would imagine leadership would be the shortcoming. Finding 3 leaders in 15 people would amazing. > > > > > > There are more chiefs than indians in wvw. Just ask teamchat what to do! > > > > Your team chat are plebs. Ours tells us whether we ask or not! > > Probably the same people who complain/logout because no tag and when you tell them "so tag up" it's "I would but I can't because [insert totally legit reason]". *"My dog ate it."* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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