Necromancer discrepancy between game modes.

[Taril.8619]

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> From my point of view it stay a mechanism and isn't less complexe than any other class mechanisms of every single profession in this game.

 

Not really.

 

It's not really a mechanic, since you don't care about it at all. You just flash it for a buff. Meaning you don't care about Life Force at all (Because you only need enough to enter Shroud and you'll never actually spend any), you don't care about the Shroud skills, or any remaining traits that affect Shroud at all.

 

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> But having to flash shroud mean that you actively use your profession mechanism. I'd even say that it's a corner stone of your rotation. The skillset carried by your class mechanism isn't your class mechanism, it is but a part of it.

 

It is part of it, just like managing the resources that are involved with your class mechanic (In this case, Life Force usage).

 

Simply flashing Shroud is not using the skillset provided by the class mechanic, it is independent of the resources of the class mechanic and it doesn't actually care at all about the class mechanic as a whole and only cares about what traits it will proc by flashing it.

 

It would be akin to if Holosmith just flashed Holoforge just to get Solar Focusing Lens procs and didn't care about the Holoforge skills or the Heat resource.

 

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> ANet reworked phantasm because it was inconvenient in use, not because it bypassed the class mechanism. Players were complaining day in and day out that the mesmer's sustained DPS sucked due to a long ramp up, resummoning fantasm between fights and (boss phase) being a chore (and they were right). That said, I won't say that ANet did a good job with this rework, they did not. While they did good to the sustain damage on large HP foes with this rework, they totally screwed balance for fights on Low HP foes by raising the sustained DPS without reducing the burst ability.

 

It was both because it was inconvenient to use and because it bypassed the class mechanic and so felt unintuitive to have a class mechanic about shatters (Along with a bunch of traits powering up shatters) that you literally never used because it was a DPS loss compared to having 3 permenant Phantasms.

 

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> While I do agree with the "poorly designed", truth be told it it designed this way because core necromancer is too focused on buffing the shroud and this leave the "shroudless" scourge in a poor state. If the core necromancer had a competitive out-of-shroud damage level, the devs probably wouldn't have felt the need to overload the shade skills with damage (to the point that they even put a _manifest sand shade_ proc on skills that would have been balanced if it wasn't for this proc).

 

Scourge is absolutely not the result of Core Necromancer's focus on buffing the Shroud.

 

The F1 pulsing damage/Torment whenever you use an F skill is not influenced by Core Necromancer's focus on Shroud. It could have provided a way to proc Shroud 1 traits that was independent of other F skills. Such as instead of being a gimmicky way of targeting your other F skills, it could have simply been a skill that used Life Force and did some damage pulses at the target location providing a pure offensive use of Life Force.

 

F5 is the only result of the focus on Shroud, as it is the actual "Shroud" skill. Though, there's no reason that it was necessary to stick a large chunk of damage on it via pulsing Damage/Torment, especially when most of the "Shroud" traits are defensive in nature (With only Death Perception and Soul Barbs providing meaningful damage increases while being "In Shroud" as opposed to using Shroud skills)

 

Honestly, the entire class mechanic of Scourge could have been better designed in a way that separates Necro's defensive and offensive tools:

 

- F1 does pure damage and can trigger traits easily (I.e. Pulse damage a few times, with its 3 charges)

 

- F2 is pure defence (Probably combine Sand Cascade and Nefarious Favour) potentially even giving this skill a couple of charges too.

 

- F3 could have been a secondary damage skill, with a higher cooldown and LF cost (Emulating the likes of Soul Spiral and Tainted Shackles from Reaper/Core Shrouds)

 

- F4 as the Fear for CC (Minor use offensively for Condi builds running Terror)

 

- F5 as Shroud providing a secondary support effect (I.e. Something like shared Barrier like Harbinger Shroud provides, but baseline) with higher cost and cooldown

 

No random proccing of damage effects from F2/F5. No proccing of defensive effects from F1/F3 (I.e. Remove/Rework Desert Empowerment and Blood as Sand traits)

 

Meaning, if you want damage, you spend LF on F1/F3. If you want defense you spend LF on F2/F5. If you want CC you spend LF on F4.

 

As opposed to the current set up that is if you want damage you spam F1, F2, F3, F4, F5 and if you want defence you spam F1, F2, F3, F5. Which reinforces the exact same issue as Core and Reaper with their intertwined damage and defense from Shroud.

[Aeolus.3615]

> @"disForm.2837" said:

> Thanks for the answers. Seems a bit shortsighted design a whole game mode that exclude a single profession that hard. So necro PvE would be better situated with a tad bit of extra raw power or just better end game bosses (better balanced, not bags of health).

>

> Then i wonder, if they increase necro raw power, wouldn't that break (too powerful) Scourge in WvW or Reaper in PvP?

>

 

Necro is strong in pve, and somehat like a debuffer in pvp and wvw its damage depends of the stats avaliable for power sustain or condi.

Reaper is strong in every game mode and a beast on PVE, m8 be the most easy class to play atm even on zerker or celestial as sustain due 2md health and does alot of damage.

Scourge is strong to in any gamemode, they are mostly used to be stacked on wvw for aoe spam, barrier and they can as well heal alies.

[disForm.2837]

Thanks for everyone who pitched on this thread. It seems indeed that necro is the victim of their own design and years and years of game progression that basically left the profession in a weird spot. Most changes on any direction would completely brake the balance, making necro almighty or a complete trash, depending on the game mode.

 

I did check about professions before starting, and every guide/video mentioned three professions for starting players and i choose necro because i liked the appearance, skills and background. Sad part is that necro is weaker on the modes i like better, mostly high end PvE but it's better suited for PvP /WvW which i don't like/(not sure i can even play with my computer).

 

Seems that i will have to level up guardian/warrior/engineer eventually if nothing change in the future.

[Dadnir.5038]

I won't go through everything because our opinion don't match and I don't see any middle ground. That said,

 

> @"Taril.8619" said:

> Scourge is absolutely not the result of Core Necromancer's focus on buffing the Shroud.

>

> The F1 pulsing damage/Torment whenever you use an F skill is not influenced by Core Necromancer's focus on Shroud. It could have provided a way to proc Shroud 1 traits that was independent of other F skills. Such as instead of being a gimmicky way of targeting your other F skills, it could have simply been a skill that used Life Force and did some damage pulses at the target location providing a pure offensive use of Life Force.

>

 

If there were no shrd#1 trait do you really think that they would have made it proc on other F skills? Nope. The scourge F1 proc is a cancer born from the core necromancer because if it didn't proc some people would have said (and it's a fact, since some did) that these traits work poorly with scourge.

 

> F5 is the only result of the focus on Shroud, as it is the actual "Shroud" skill. Though, there's no reason that it was necessary to stick a large chunk of damage on it via pulsing Damage/Torment, especially when most of the "Shroud" traits are defensive in nature (With only Death Perception and Soul Barbs providing meaningful damage increases while being "In Shroud" as opposed to using Shroud skills)

>

 

F5 is a necessity like you said. The core necromancer is built in such a way that it cannot work without some time within a "shroud" and this shroud need to have at the very least an in built defensive component (due to _unholy sanctuary_). The damage are there because out-of-shroud the skills lack power damage and condi damage take to long to ramp up.

 

> Honestly, the entire class mechanic of Scourge could have been better designed in a way that separates Necro's defensive and offensive tools:

>

> - F1 does pure damage and can trigger traits easily (I.e. Pulse damage a few times, with its 3 charges)

>

> - F2 is pure defence (Probably combine Sand Cascade and Nefarious Favour) potentially even giving this skill a couple of charges too.

>

> - F3 could have been a secondary damage skill, with a higher cooldown and LF cost (Emulating the likes of Soul Spiral and Tainted Shackles from Reaper/Core Shrouds)

>

> - F4 as the Fear for CC (Minor use offensively for Condi builds running Terror)

>

> - F5 as Shroud providing a secondary support effect (I.e. Something like shared Barrier like Harbinger Shroud provides, but baseline) with higher cost and cooldown

>

 

The current F2, F3 and F4 would have been more than enough without the F1 proc (I'd even say it would still be a bit to strong due to the fact that they are instant). Your suggestion on F5 is just putting F3 on steroid and _harbringer shroud_ isn't a shroud that work well with core traits. Your proposed F1 change would cause an uproar and a witchhunt in sPvP/WvW.

 

> No random proccing of damage effects from F2/F5. No proccing of defensive effects from F1/F3 (I.e. Remove/Rework Desert Empowerment and Blood as Sand traits)

>

> Meaning, if you want damage, you spend LF on F1/F3. If you want defense you spend LF on F2/F5. If you want CC you spend LF on F4.

>

> As opposed to the current set up that is if you want damage you spam F1, F2, F3, F4, F5 and if you want defence you spam F1, F2, F3, F5. Which reinforces the exact same issue as Core and Reaper with their intertwined damage and defense from Shroud.

 

So you're conscious of the issue of the damage/defense from shroud in the end? Like I said, the simpler solution is to reallocate the ressources spent into the shroud in the core necromancer's traitlines in such a way that the out of shroud stance take over the damage. Having shroud being used for defense (2nd health bar), CC (fear), mobility (shrd#2), debuff (traits), selfbuff (traits) and support (traits) is already more than enough, why would you want to add damage on top of all that.

[KrHome.1920]

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> If there were no shrd#1 trait do you really think that they would have made it proc on other F skills? Nope. The scourge F1 proc is a cancer born from the core necromancer because if it didn't proc some people would have said (and it's a fact, since some did) that these traits work poorly with scourge.

Indeed. That's trivial.

 

The shroud1 proc trait is meant to be triggered frequently (trivial, because we are talking about the autoattack!) which is not possible on scourge as there is no autoattack for the shades. The F-skill trigger for scourge is just a bandaid for a poorly designed elite spec.

 

And the f-skills are not doing enough on their own since they would be too strong otherwise (think about stacked scourges). The f1 proc (not the trait) is a baseline for scourge balancing.

 

So they did this for 2 reasons:

- the shroud1 trait can proc on every f-skill as every f-skill procs shroud1

- they can balance the general impact of scourge based on changes of one skill (the f1 effect)

 

The poor design is shown in two facts:

- the procs have been too strong, so they added a dhuumfire icd for scourge

- they had to nerf the f1 effect to almost uselessness in small scale, because it was too strong in large scale

[Taril.8619]

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> If there were no shrd#1 trait do you really think that they would have made it proc on other F skills? Nope. The scourge F1 proc is a cancer born from the core necromancer because if it didn't proc some people would have said (and it's a fact, since some did) that these traits work poorly with scourge.

 

Except, it's possible to make F1 proc Shroud 1 traits without it being triggered by other F skills.

 

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> The current F2, F3 and F4 would have been more than enough without the F1 proc (I'd even say it would still be a bit to strong due to the fact that they are instant).

 

Well, other than the fact that you'd be limited in what you can do offensively. Having 2 damage and 2 defense skills means that the spec that is hybrid Support/Condi gets equal use out of its F skills in all game modes.

 

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> Your suggestion on F5 is just putting F3 on steroid

 

Yes, because it's simple and effective given that Scourge seems to have an affinity for applying Barrier. Also, if Desert Empowerment was reworked so as to not provide defensive benefit to F1 usage, then this new F5 would provide the disparity in AoE Barrier application.

 

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> _harbringer shroud_ isn't a shroud that work well with core traits.

 

I'm well aware. It is a very odd Shroud that doesn't really have a place since it offers less damage than Desert Shroud, has anti-synergy with most Shroud traits and merely offers Barriers for allies as its only positive aspect (Which is outperformed by current Desert Empowerment)

 

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> Your proposed F1 change would cause an uproar and a witchhunt in sPvP/WvW.

 

How so?

 

How is spending Life Force for damage somehow worse than the current design where you put them down for **FREE** and get instant damage (Especially if using Sadistic Searing and Dhuumfire) and then more damage procs throughout its entire 20s duration from usage of any other F skills?

 

Keep in mind my suggestion completely removes other F skills proccing damage or being used as a point of origin for other F skills (Which would likely mean a damage and duration change)

 

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> So you're conscious of the issue of the damage/defense from shroud in the end?

 

Umm? Yes?

 

How has it taken you this long to figure this out when I've literally pointed it out **SEVERAL TIMES**?

 

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> Like I said, the simpler solution is to reallocate the ressources spent into the shroud in the core necromancer's traitlines in such a way that the out of shroud stance take over the damage.

 

The simpler solution is to leave it as it is. Which has equally negative side effects to the suggestion of "Simply" relegating much of the Class Mechanic to flashing Shroud every 10 seconds (20s for Scourge).

 

Which is why something more "Complex" is required to actually address the issue at hand.

 

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> Having shroud being used for defense (2nd health bar), CC (fear), mobility (shrd#2), debuff (traits), selfbuff (traits) and support (traits) is already more than enough, why would you want to add damage on top of all that.

 

So that the class mechanic actually means something in PvE content, which is a significant portion of the entire game and is the reason why Shroud needs to be looked at because it's the only place in which the current Shroud system is failing. PvP and WvW Shroud is fine. PvE is where Necro is hampered by Shroud because it is getting low damage due to the inherent design of Shroud being both offensive and defensive.

 

Hence my earlier suggestion of creating a second Shroud for Core and Reaper that has only the damage increases (Such as Weapon skill changes and the damage bonuses from Traits) while the original F1 Shroud becomes purely defensive with the health bar being replaced by Life Force as well as being the target for all the defensive Shroud traits.

 

With Scourge then having the above suggested changes to split apart the damage and defense from its F skills.

 

Meaning that Necro's would have to choose how to spend their Life Force, on damage **OR** on defense. Never gaining both, but still utilizing their class mechanic on both of these things.

 

P.s. If you want to be like that, someone could also say "Non-Shroud is used for defence (Utilities), CC (Fear on Staff, Pull on GS, Knockdown on Torch, Chill on Focus as well as Utilities), debuff (Staff/GS/Scepter/Torch/Focus and utilities) and support (Traits, utilities, Staff) and is already more than enough, why would you want to add damage on top of all that" which makes it a poor argument.

 

Also in the situations where shroud needs to be adjusted (PvE) it is only used for 1 thing and 1 thing only. Damage. You don't care about any of the utility skills or traits or the defensive benefits. You only care about Soul Spiral + Auto Attacks + damage traits.

[Obtena.7952]

> @"Taril.8619" said:

> Also in the situations where shroud needs to be adjusted (PvE) it is only used for 1 thing and 1 thing only. Damage. You don't care about any of the utility skills or traits or the defensive benefits. You only care about Soul Spiral + Auto Attacks + damage traits.

 

Can't really dance around this. None of these things are true or show any understanding of the clear intention is for shroud as the Necro mechanic. This is actually a clear expression for having no balance on Shroud and that's obviously not going to happen. Shroud is not the 'do it all' function that it would have to be to appeal to these kinds of concepts.

 

If you are proposing there is a situation in PVE where only damage matters that requires Necro class changes, then the only concept that works within the _current_ Necro class concept is a skillset where Shroud is not accessible. I don't see that happening because that doesn't appear how Anet wants the class to work. We know this because past changes ENCOURAGE the use of Shroud.

 

You aren't going to have a reasonable discussion without acknowledging the theme of the class. If you have to propose a change to the class theme to justify your class changing ideas, then you already acknowledge (indirectly) that you would be better to choose a different class that aligns with how you want to play to begin with.

[Taril.8619]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> If you are proposing there is a situation in PVE where only damage matters that requires Necro class changes, then the only concept that works within the _current_ Necro class concept is a skillset where Shroud is not accessible.

 

Or... You know... The concept I mentioned.

 

F1 Shroud and F2 Shroud.

 

F1 Shroud provides the defensive aspects of Shroud (Life Force replaces health, defensive Shroud traits function, skillset is unchanged)

 

F2 Shroud provides the offensive aspects of Shroud (New more powerful skillset, offensive Shroud traits function, Life Force does not replace health)

 

Simple. Shroud is still the core mechanic of Necro. You still try and sit in Shroud a lot. Only now, the benefits of Shroud are split allowing for better balance. Since the defensive and offensive potential are now on separate Shroud skills as well as the traits (Which would simply require reference of "Shroud A" or "Shroud B" whatever their names might end up being for Core for example "Death Shroud" and "Wight Shroud")

 

It would allow for proper balancing of each aspect as it wouldn't have to consider the other aspect being stuck along with it (I.e. Shroud being too good defensively to have strong offense or Shroud being too good offensively to have strong defence)

 

You could even add further mechanics to differentiate them if you wish (For example, having F2 shroud not deplete LF over time, but instead use LF for skills similar to Firebrand and their pages in their Tomes - If people are not fond of the gameplay where PvE Reaper ends up just auto attacking in Shroud for significant portions of combat).

[Obtena.7952]

> @"Taril.8619" said:

> > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > If you are proposing there is a situation in PVE where only damage matters that requires Necro class changes, then the only concept that works within the _current_ Necro class concept is a skillset where Shroud is not accessible.

>

> Or... You know... The concept I mentioned.

>

> F1 Shroud and F2 Shroud.

>

> F1 Shroud provides the defensive aspects of Shroud (Life Force replaces health, defensive Shroud traits function, skillset is unchanged)

>

> F2 Shroud provides the offensive aspects of Shroud (New more powerful skillset, offensive Shroud traits function, Life Force does not replace health)

>

> Simple. Shroud is still the core mechanic of Necro. You still try and sit in Shroud a lot. Only now, the benefits of Shroud are split allowing for better balance. Since the defensive and offensive potential are now on separate Shroud skills as well as the traits (Which would simply require reference of "Shroud A" or "Shroud B" whatever their names might end up being for Core for example "Death Shroud" and "Wight Shroud")

>

> It would allow for proper balancing of each aspect as it wouldn't have to consider the other aspect being stuck along with it (I.e. Shroud being too good defensively to have strong offense or Shroud being too good offensively to have strong defence)

>

> You could even add further mechanics to differentiate them if you wish (For example, having F2 shroud not deplete LF over time, but instead use LF for skills similar to Firebrand and their pages in their Tomes - If people are not fond of the gameplay where PvE Reaper ends up just auto attacking in Shroud for significant portions of combat).

 

I'm not going to argue you can imagine a concept that does what you want it to do ... anyone can do that.

 

I am going to point out that this doesn't look like how Anet has implemented shroud on all 3 specs so far, all delivering a level of sustain that adheres to the fundamental theme of the class. Like it or not, the shroud concept is a mix of offensive and defensive parts, for all specs. I have yet to see Anet deviate from their themes ... in fact, quite the opposite ... Anet has went out of their way to reinvent them when they aren't working they want them to.