Mesmer DPS and DPS in general.

[Bod.8261]

> @Carighan.6758 said:

> If anything, nerf other DPS specs down to **at least** the level of Mesmer DPS specs, but more likely bring everyone even lower, capping at 28k-30k.

>

> Anyhow, independent of that (I just disagree about the power baseline really), I feel ANet **seriously** needs to sit down, decide where they want to go with their class-design in general, and do something about it. You can notice by now that this is a 5 years old game where little if any thought was put into long-term class design, instead whoever was there at the time and had hours free got to work on class changes and spec design. It's probably not even the fault of the devs, but a mix of understaffed dev teams and rotating employees. Knowledge lost and all.

 

I have to agree with OP and this.

 

I can't understand why it would be so hard to balance this game.

GW2 has all the requirements to be "as balanced as a game can be" while having unique and cohesive playstyles for all classes:

1. The amount of different builds is manageable. Builds are centered around weapons with fixed slots. Utilities mostly add flavor, traits and equipment are chosen fitting the weapons and direction of a spec.

2. Skills, equipment, traits, essentially everything can be split between PvE and PvP.

3. Specs are set in stone. You can't mix professions or armor classes. You can only have one elite spec.

 

All the devs need to do is create a small team, lay down some basics then balance the game according to it. Do it in small steps every 2 weeks with the community as "testers" or do it in big steps with a dedicated "testing crewe" of players selected from all groups of players mixed with payed testers. It doesn't matter how you do it, just do it.

 

At the moment all professions should have at least 3 different builds (Core, Elite 1, Elite 2). And I mean vastly different in both function and playstyle.

For mesmer core would be a power based dps spec based around phantasms, Mirage could be a condition spec focussed around clones and shatters and Chrono might as well be the support spec that could work without illusions and mostly uses aoe fields and group buffs.

 

As a general rule: Power dps builds should be able to dish out ~26k dps on a golem, condi dps builds should peak at ~28k but with a longer ramp up and less aoe.

Support specs should deal far less than 20k, but provide the group with either might comparable to a PS warrior or quickness comparable to a chrono. They will also provide buffs like Empower Allies or Spotter that always have to be in the defensive trait lines skipped by dps.

Healer specs should deal minimal damage, but be able to keep a group alive and provide a buff like Grace of the Land while doing so.

 

Also, stop adding options for the sake of adding options. Cut back the amount of sigills, runes and stat combinations while making the ones actually used more comparably accessible. I'd rather have the next expansion not add another set of directionless elite-specs and instead actually balance the professions.

[Cyninja.2954]

> @Raiff.6742 said:

> I play a Power Chrono build and last night was 2nd in DPS on a fractal in which everyone else was in Ascended gear and I was in Exotics. To me, that seems pretty good evidence that Power Mes is capable of doing good DPS.

 

Try playing with decent people. If you were 2nd as mesmer power dps, people must have been terrible in your fractal group. Nothing suprising though since I consistently pull 1st place by far on my necromancer with outdated gear and no rotation.

 

Then once you have achieved power mesmer greatness, try joining any challenge mode 99 or 100 group as damage mesmer. Tell us how long it took until people gave you the boot.

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

> @dontlook.1823 said:

> Its not a matter of people being tolerant of others playing how they want, you know.

> It's a matter of professions like Mesmer not being able to compete for top DPS. Although their current DPS is decent it is still sub-optimal. I brought up Guards in my OP because a few short years ago they were experiencing similar issues with their damage potential. Now they are pretty much at the top of the charts with pDPS and cDPS builds. I just want to make that clear. It's not that hard to find a group of friends or people you've been gaming with to tolerate ones' play-style . But DPS potential is up to the developers and that's it.

>

> What's more is the balance team has done many PvE/PvP split changes. So to tie those two so closely together is far off from what I'm getting at here.

 

To be "optimal" is a fairly exclusive club in which 5 spots are reserved. By default, 4 classes will be excluded, and countless other builds and specializations on all of the classes. Even if you normalize every class to do 34k DPS, classes will still be excluded because their utilities aren't going to be as widely applicable. This fact isn't going to change. Yes, we can pump mirage DPS to 40k, but this just bumps another class off of the optimal list.

 

The most any developer can guarantee is for a class to be viable. If you're saying that you want to bump off another class and take its spot, then join the club. So do most classes.

 

> @Zenith.7301 said:

>

> That may be the scenario for single bosses in raids.

>

> In fractals and cleave raid fights, mesmer is complete trash and your group is carrying you hard through trash, which is virtually the vast majority of the fractal outside 99/100/mai trin/molten duo.

>

> The ramp up and terrible target switching hindering the class is real, and while you point at passable DPS, that DPS is basically that of a PS condi warrior with none of the utility.

 

Wow, I didn't know that PS condi warrior did 34k. I thought it did 29k.

 

Anyway, you change up your rotation when fighting smaller mobs. You don't just summon phantasms against a single vet. You prioritize shatters and cleaves. Whenever I encounter regular mobs, I usually go for precast torch 4 -> double axe 2 while repositioning with jaunt -> cloak and ambush while using Cry of Frustration and swapping weapons at the same time. From there I mostly wing it, since after doing all of that most small mob groups are dead. Even if you aren't running the clone build or the shatter build, this still works well enough to cleave down anything less than an elite.

[Cyninja.2954]

> @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:

> > @Zenith.7301 said:

> >

> > That may be the scenario for single bosses in raids.

> >

> > In fractals and cleave raid fights, mesmer is complete trash and your group is carrying you hard through trash, which is virtually the vast majority of the fractal outside 99/100/mai trin/molten duo.

> >

> > The ramp up and terrible target switching hindering the class is real, and while you point at passable DPS, that DPS is basically that of a PS condi warrior with none of the utility.

>

> Wow, I didn't know that PS condi warrior did 34k. I thought it did 29k.

>

> Anyway, you change up your rotation when fighting smaller mobs. You don't just summon phantasms against a single vet. You prioritize shatters and cleaves. Whenever I encounter regular mobs, I usually go for precast torch 4 -> double axe 2 while repositioning with jaunt -> cloak and ambush while using Cry of Frustration and swapping weapons at the same time. From there I mostly wing it, since after doing all of that most small mob groups are dead. Even if you aren't running the clone build or the shatter build, this still works well enough to cleave down anything less than an elite.

 

BRA shame on you, don't pull this stuff. You know you don't take cPS in fractals for the damage.

 

If mesmer had:

- banners

- might

- empowered allies

- good cc (which mesmer has)

- and good cleave (which if you factor for multiple targets easily let's cPS out dps a mesmer)

 

I'm sure no one would care about damage numbers.

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

> @Cyninja.2954 said:

>

> BRA shame on you, don't pull this stuff. You know you don't take cPS in fractals for the damage.

>

> If mesmer had:

> - banners

> - might

> - empowered allies

> - good cc (which mesmer has)

> - and good cleave (which if you factor for multiple targets easily let's cPS out dps a mesmer)

>

> I'm sure no one would care about damage numbers.

 

Zenith is being deliberately difficult, as he usually does, so I responded in kind. But, it should be noted that cPS out-damages several specializations flat out, and having 29.5k DPS is nothing to scoff at. Though it is taken mostly for buffs, the damage is sufficient enough that it isn't a drain on other classes to take along. Compare it to the damage other "support" classes have, such as any healer, or condi druid, or dom/insp chronomancer, and you'll see that the cPS warrior is anything but a "low DPS" build. I hate the fact that people bring up cPS warrior as the benchmark for support builds, when it is hardly representative of what support builds actually accomplish. If anything, their "support" build is overpowered.

 

The irony here is that Mesmers are already taken in spite of their low damage. Because while they don't have all of those things you listed, they still have quickness, alacrity, and boon stripping. Now, if you're talking about having a high DPS build that also has all of those buffs, then welcome to the club currently occupied by engineer, thief, necromancer. All of their builds do 32k to 35k damage, but don't do much else. The Revenant managed to squeeze past to get to 37k, but again it doesn't bring much support. And that is with all of their best builds. You don't want to know what goes on with Deadeye, Scrapper, Herald, and Scourge at the moment.

[Cyninja.2954]

> @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:

> > @Cyninja.2954 said:

> >

> > BRA shame on you, don't pull this stuff. You know you don't take cPS in fractals for the damage.

> >

> > If mesmer had:

> > - banners

> > - might

> > - empowered allies

> > - good cc (which mesmer has)

> > - and good cleave (which if you factor for multiple targets easily let's cPS out dps a mesmer)

> >

> > I'm sure no one would care about damage numbers.

>

> Zenith is being deliberately difficult, as he usually does, so I responded in kind. But, it should be noted that cPS out-damages several specializations flat out, and having 29.5k DPS is nothing to scoff at. Though it is taken mostly for buffs, the damage is sufficient enough that it isn't a drain on other classes to take along. Compare it to the damage other "support" classes have, such as any healer, or condi druid, or dom/insp chronomancer, and you'll see that the cPS warrior is anything but a "low DPS" build. I hate the fact that people bring up cPS warrior as the benchmark for support builds, when it is hardly representative of what support builds actually accomplish. If anything, their "support" build is overpowered.

 

To be fair, it is unfair to compare just about any class to cPS. Who else brings close to dps damage and the amount of unique buffs to a group besides warrior? No one, that's who. So yeah, it was kind of a loaded question.

 

I do think Zenith was talking about damage mesmer though (power core and Mirage) not chrono.

 

> @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:

>

> The irony here is that Mesmers are already taken in spite of their low damage. Because while they don't have all of those things you listed, they still have quickness, alacrity, and boon stripping. Now, if you're talking about having a high DPS build that also has all of those buffs, then welcome to the club currently occupied by engineer, thief, necromancer. All of their builds do 32k to 35k damage, but don't do much else. The Revenant managed to squeeze past to get to 37k, but again it doesn't bring much support. And that is with all of their best builds. You don't want to know what goes on with Deadeye, Scrapper, Herald, and Scourge at the moment.

 

Agreed, as far as support goes, chrono is the beezwax.

 

Well Deadeye will likely never see the light of day for pve, it's just to strong in spvp or wvw single target otherwise. Daredveil seems to be the thiefs pve build.

 

Same goes for Scrapper. Holo looks quite nice. Engi remains a class which relies on a lot of apm and difficult rotations. Was no different with condi engi pre PoF.

 

Revenant in general needs a complete revamp. I mained Rev at HoT launch for 3 months (taking a break from mesmer, or at least not playing as much). The class is in a very sad state, mostly due to mechanical diffculties.

 

Scourge will get retuned and will likely get some of its dps back. At this point in time though it had to be nerfed until proper balance is possible. It was probably the most overpowered thing in wvw and raids for a long time. While playing wvw (on my Scourge, yes I did gear one of my necros just for the luls) every 50 man group was eventually composed of 30-50% Scourge. At the same time you had good Scourge pull 28.5k+ on Sabatha while providing barrier.

 

EDIT: small wording issues

[musu.9205]

> @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:

> > @dontlook.1823 said:

> > Its not a matter of people being tolerant of others playing how they want, you know.

> > It's a matter of professions like Mesmer not being able to compete for top DPS. Although their current DPS is decent it is still sub-optimal. I brought up Guards in my OP because a few short years ago they were experiencing similar issues with their damage potential. Now they are pretty much at the top of the charts with pDPS and cDPS builds. I just want to make that clear. It's not that hard to find a group of friends or people you've been gaming with to tolerate ones' play-style . But DPS potential is up to the developers and that's it.

> >

> > What's more is the balance team has done many PvE/PvP split changes. So to tie those two so closely together is far off from what I'm getting at here.

>

> To be "optimal" is a fairly exclusive club in which 5 spots are reserved. By default, 4 classes will be excluded, and countless other builds and specializations on all of the classes. Even if you normalize every class to do 34k DPS, classes will still be excluded because their utilities aren't going to be as widely applicable. This fact isn't going to change. Yes, we can pump mirage DPS to 40k, but this just bumps another class off of the optimal list.

>

> The most any developer can guarantee is for a class to be viable. If you're saying that you want to bump off another class and take its spot, then join the club. So do most classes.

>

> > @Zenith.7301 said:

> >

> > That may be the scenario for single bosses in raids.

> >

> > In fractals and cleave raid fights, mesmer is complete trash and your group is carrying you hard through trash, which is virtually the vast majority of the fractal outside 99/100/mai trin/molten duo.

> >

> > The ramp up and terrible target switching hindering the class is real, and while you point at passable DPS, that DPS is basically that of a PS condi warrior with none of the utility.

>

> Wow, I didn't know that PS condi warrior did 34k. I thought it did 29k.

>

> Anyway, you change up your rotation when fighting smaller mobs. You don't just summon phantasms against a single vet. You prioritize shatters and cleaves. Whenever I encounter regular mobs, I usually go for precast torch 4 -> double axe 2 while repositioning with jaunt -> cloak and ambush while using Cry of Frustration and swapping weapons at the same time. From there I mostly wing it, since after doing all of that most small mob groups are dead. Even if you aren't running the clone build or the shatter build, this still works well enough to cleave down anything less than an elite.

 

Anyway, you change up your rotation when fighting smaller mobs. You don't just summon phantasms against a single vet. You prioritize shatters and cleaves.

 

Dude

Do you Play the game

do you have any idea what you are talking about

do you have any idea of how fast other class could clean trash mobs ?

shatter power dmg on 10s cd , condi dmg lol on top of you need to swap weapon to get 3 illusions up .

 

and do you know that no dps build use any trait related to shatter .unless you can change traits in mid of fight on mesmer

 

if shatter does any meaningful dmg in fractal , we won't complain here.

 

precast torch 4 -> double axe 2 while repositioning with jaunt -> cloak and ambush while using Cry of Frustration

do you understand that cd exist for some reasons .

 

and mobs still die to one lava font faster than what you did here.

 

To be "optimal" is a fairly exclusive club in which 5 spots are reserved. By default, 4 classes will be excluded, and countless other builds and specializations on all of the classes. Even if you normalize every class to do 34k DPS

 

True optimal would be minmax everything you can

but that's not we are asking here.

currently , mirage dps level is not on bar with other dps classes (guard , rev , ele , thief ) and it has zero utility . heavily rely on single target damage .

 

what could be a more balanced situation

let's say

all class should have close dps . which means 30-34k (based on pve content )dps

and more dps means more trade off

higher dps would have to be less utility , less aoe , less support/buff, less self sustain (being buff or heal) less cc etc .

an elite spec like mirage should has one of highest single target dps since it brings nothing else

an elite spec like firerband should has lower dps number given how much support it has access to without any build change .

but all of them still have close dps not 6k dps difference or 10k+ dps difference if you count weaver

 

this way optimal would be more situational and varies from bosses to bosses , we kinda have it but in most cases its more like ele dominate large hit box bosses .and people will complain far less than now .

 

the only problem with this is currently support builds are loaded with many many utilities which make most utilities from dps class less important .

in order to clean this up

anet has to rework many traits , give them direction for certain roles, not the mess we have now .

for example , druid has to pick spirit heavy build or heal heavy build .chrono has to pick alacrity or quickness as their main focus .

by limiting those tools , we could finally open up more slots for each class without giving more unique buff and making team comp more limited .

 

but hey anet will take lazy route which means buff ele sword numbers .so whatever.

 

[apharma.3741]

The main issues aren’t the numbers for mesmer, anything over 28k will complete all content promptly, the issue is the mechanics and the way it does that dps.

 

1. Poor cleave, almost entirely single target.

2. Considerably higher ramp up time than other classes.

3. Loses high amounts of damage on target switching (boss phases).

4. Performs poorly on burn phases.

 

It’s these qualities that make DPS mesmer undesirable. As I said in another thread, you could bring 1 to every raid encounter and it would do alright, I certainly wouldn’t kick a single DPS on its own. However I also would not go out of my way looking for one as many classes will not just do the same DPS as the mesmer or more but they won’t run into the problems outlined above. It does have one saving grace and that is on fights with a high number of mechanics like Matthias you lose less DPS from having to do mechanics where you have to move away from the boss.

 

All in all this once again ties back to how phantasms are a mechanic that should have been removed from the mesmer class about 3 years ago with the major trait rework and how it’s quite frankly silly that any class is better never touching their class mechanic than using it.

[Swiftwynd.1685]

> @musu.9205 said:

 

You are one aggressive and misinformed sad individual. Guess what?

 

Yes, I can and have cleared orbs. On power mesmer. Though its not a huge deal as long as you only focus the ones near you. This is also something a competent pair of CPS can do by simply aiming their longbow primal burst well ...

 

Yes, I actually am the main shard clearer on Xera. On power mesmer.

 

Yes, I actually have good cleave on the slublings on Sloth. Guess what? I'm also focus pulling them in and I don't focus pull our slubling. Oh, and I pack an extra feedback for good measure.

 

 

Don't try to lecture me on what I can and cannot do with a profession I play and full clear weekly. We regularly run double power mesmer on plenty of fights. The myth about them having no cleave just simply isn't true.

 

[Swiftwynd.1685]

> @musu.9205 said:

 

> in gors , if no one cleans orb , you die to aoe

> in xera , if no one cleans shard , you die to super buffed xera

> they can't understand the basically mechanic .

>

 

 

You just honestly have no experience raiding. And that's fine.

 

But stop spreading misinformation as if it was fact, please.

 

Sword 2 + mantra of Pain and Autos clear shards in no time while you are still maintaining 40% of your dps on the boss. Anyone shard clearing will similarly have to either fully stop boss DPS or split their damage unless they are ranged cleaving through Xera from the center to the shards.

 

Again, when I say that I often times am the solo shard clearer .. I mean it. Sometimes people in my runs just dont focus on clearing at all so I always take it upon myself to do so. Blink in, deal with it, and move on with our lives.

 

 

But again, all I'm doing is speaking from experience with my completed legendary armor and weekly full clears. Clearly I'm just getting carried.

 

Get over yourself. Player skill with a build and familiarity with content is absolutely more than sufficient to do weekly full clears, and just because you think you understand a build's capabilities does not mean you know the realities of its effectiveness in the field.

 

Case in point, I rarely get out damaged significantly by Tempests or Staff Weavers on KC, a fight which is literally their best encounter in the game. I've never, ever, in a weekly clear lost a KC attempt due to our damage failing. We have lost it before due to mechanics failures before, but guess what, Power Mesmer brings actual, realistic, good additional utility to that fight without sacrificing any damage that was meaningful. We've cleared the final 33% with a dead DPS on the team because they didnt move out of his smash aoe during the pizza aoe part of the fight. We did it with just 3 DPS alive... Let that sink in. We literally had 1/4th of our team's burst damage dead, and still cleared it on the final phase. Want to know partially what beat that fight? My Signet of Humiliation and Midnight, an additional focus pull to assist the orb pusher, and then competent damage at the correct times to ensure spirits didnt merge and being in the correct positions at the right times.

 

 

Absolute Max Damage is, and I will always maintain this, NOT the most important, key aspect to killing boss encounters. Consistent damage, consistent mechanics, and coordination are infinitely more important that having a perfect rotation while you drop poison on the group during sloth and then have a slow break because someone didnt want to switch in some more break bar skills to "hurt mah deeps."

[Swiftwynd.1685]

> @apharma.3741 said:

> The main issues aren’t the numbers for mesmer, anything over 28k will complete all content promptly, the issue is the mechanics and the way it does that dps.

>

> 1. Poor cleave, almost entirely single target.

 

Actually, Power Mesmer cleave is better than most and for reason's ill explain. Sword Auto, Focus Pull, Sword 2, and mantra of Pain all cleave. 40% of the damage, if running pure swordsmen, does not cleave, which is true. This means that if the adds actually had significantly huge health pools, it would be a concern, but I cleave stuff during during Xera juuuuust fine by virtue of stacking things neatly for others to cleave and burst cleaving myself. We never lose on Xera or Sloth due to our inability to manage the adds. You also have to consider that builds are not run in a vaccum. Tempest, Weaver, and DH do have phenomenal cleave potential, but outside of GS5 on Guardian, they don't cluster foes in well. Having an additional focus pull is super handy on Xera to let them really benefit from their cleave, as those foes like to sit at range outside of their cleaving radius if not pulled.

 

Also, Epidemic is the real king of the cleave if we're being picky, but can still target crystals you dont want to clear over the npcs if they arent first pulled closer.

 

> 2. Considerably higher ramp up time than other classes.

 

Not really. There IS a build up on the initial summoning, but it takes around 12 total seconds to be at full peak for the remainder of the fight, barring some very specific scenarios that will be mentioned later.

 

> 3. Loses high amounts of damage on target switching (boss phases).

 

The only loss is if the phantasms strike a random add on Sabatha instead of her minibosses. But honestly, these are extremely easy to kill anyways, and the resume striking sabatha as soon as she returns. This is not the case on KC, Cairn, MO. Samarog is the only boss this is somewhat of an issue on with the 66% and 33% split, but the additional focus pull and stability to avoid the daze during split phase more than makes up for it in my subgroup's experience. We always have loads of minutes on the timer, and the additional breakbar allows us to clear it faster than simply "getting to the next break bar faster."

 

> 4. Performs poorly on burn phases.

Wrong actually. Name one burn phase that Power Mesmer has to ramp up on? None. This is just simply not true. Phantasms are maintained through every boss mechanic in the game save for the following:

 

Deimos: Only bad fight for Power Mesmer, Phantasms will die constantly if you shift down each time. That said, you can clear this faster if you just leave the mesmer up with the oil kiter, hand kiter, and tank. Getting Dark Saul to half health is really not a challenge for anyone going down even if down one dps, and saves time on Deimos when you come back, not that he's really hard due to any damage threshold. He's a strictly mechanics based fight, and if doing ranged strat, power mesmer is one of the higher ranged damage options for single target.

 

Mathias: If Sacrificed, Phantasms will die. No way around this for sure, but past 40%, Power and Condi Mesmers are the most consistent damage options in the game for this boss. I clear it weekly with absolute ease, and I'm almost always top damage.

 

Sloth: If you are a shroom eatter, you will lose your phantasms. I usually eat First for this reason, as we need the higher damage later in the fight as he hits sub 50% anway.

 

 

 

Every. Other. Boss. Does. Not. Despawn. Phantasms.

 

Not on Sabatha. Not on KC. They persist and continue to strike targets and resume targeting their original target the moment they become active again. This actually makes Power Mesmer a very close third best burst phase profession for KC, and it brings enough additional utility to absolutely be worth it, as you will absolutely always overcap in damage needed during the burn phase, but Weaver/Tempest are shit at break bar, and Dragon Hunter is decent but not as good or fast at breaking as Power Mesmer, allowing for much cleaner breaks on demand. Our cleanest runs include a Power mesmer or 2, and two dragon hunters/Tempest/Weavers. We've never had issues with this composition and we have had issues running pure Weavers/Tempests/Dragonhunters.

[apharma.3741]

You clearly have no clue what you are talking about Swiftwynd, many power dps builds spike damage (go watch any dps test with a running arc meter) and then fall to where they should be, this is usually over the first 10-20s of a fight. Case in point was firebrand at the start of PoF where it was doing over 50k on golems in the first 30s of the tests before falling dramatically in the later part.

 

Mesmer, whether it be power or condition always has to build up to the dps and only hits its max after about 12s (if all swordsmen) and longer if we are running other phantasms like pistol and even longer if we are running a condition build.

 

Go look up frifox and all his work on Mesmer DPS in the old forum, even after HoT and PoF all the work and effort he put in is relevant to the profession just with some time frame adjustment due to the various changes.

 

Additionally you make all these counter points without bothering about the last part of what I put, 1 on its own is not going to be an issue. I guess given the intellectual level of forum posters I should have gone into details but I would have thought the fact that the other 3 dps classes would make up for a mesmers shortcomings was a given. Guess not.

[musu.9205]

@Swiftwynd.1685

i will ask this again . if you feel power mesmer is so great , why your group didn't try 4 power mesmer set up , 4 not 2 stop dodging this question . or any raid group for that matters . the entire gw2 playerbase are stupid and delusional .you are the savior as power mesmer in raid i got it .

 

and i like how you made focus pull as something unique about power dps mesmer when every semi decent raid group run 2 chronos .what are your chrono doing ?even for sloth adds 2 chrono has enough pull .

it's funny how you didn't try to use stability mantra to prevent sloth fear ,maybe you didn't know how useful gale song is , given your chrono can't use focus pull often i guess they couldn't distortion that fear .

signet of Midnight is aoe blind i don't know how you use that to destroy breakbar . i think you might want to check wiki and make sure you meant signet of domination

. coz you know you are so into yourself .try to be power mesmer expert but didnt even know which signet does stun .

 

"Every. Other. Boss. Does. Not. Despawn. Phantasms."

by that you meant you basically doing little damage to mini bosses .i feel so sorry for other dps lol .

 

losing one dps when KC 33% is like nothing dire .you made that sound like you did some miracle with power mesmer . maybe just maybe , your group is not that good given how you have such delusion unless you are just lying .

I'm sorry i clear full raid on reset night and multi times for with guild and played multi class including holosmith , dh , firebrand , druid , chrono tank , offchrono , condi mirage , power mesmer , condi rev . used to play tempest too .

 

about shard clean , do you have any clue about how other class do that .

DH , ele (be it tempest or weaver ) has ranged burst on top of melee burst skills

necro has epi

thief has much better AA damage than you with better mobility

engi has more ranged burst and better AA being is nade or bomb

 

"Anyone shard clearing will similarly have to either fully stop boss DPS or split their damage unless they are ranged cleaving through Xera from the center to the shards."

maybe you should try to play cps war and press f1 see what happens . or weaver fire air 3 see what happens (but let's not count weaver yet )

 

i already said for most utilities a power mes could bring , in most cases , support classes already cover those things .and due to long cd even cc utilities on power mesmer are not that great .well you saved your group once a blue moon , for rest of us , it hardly matters coz you can't measure your long cd cd to cycle on certain boss mechanic .

KC breakbar is really not a problem for even most pug group . matt sacrifice , samg cc phase are vital in most runs .

and power mesmer could take some mantra to help squad which is nice we all admit but mantra are kinda niche in raid right now .

as for rest of our utilities , most are just pvp skills .not much to say here.

 

my group even had once that power chrono did cannon . guess why we still don't run power mesmer in general ?

[Daishi.6027]

I haven't started raiding until recently. But isn't like 3 Illusionary swordsmen with Phantasmal force on a power build credit to team?

I don't have a DPS meter but when people were calling out the top DPS I was like 3rd to 4th highest most of the time, and that was as a Mirage beating out the two chrono in the party. Maybe my team sucked at DPS, and we only got a fire brand later when I dropped to 4th (despite him being dead half the time lol), but we cleared content;

so... I can't complain?

 

I would like to do crazy DPS numbers, but I'm just happy I can contribute without having to roll chrono and play speed/alacrity bot, and this is something all mesmers have, even if it's a fiddly mechanic that probably needs a few QoL Buffs.

[Swiftwynd.1685]

> @Daishi.6027 said:

> I haven't started raiding until recently. But isn't like 3 Illusionary swordsmen with Phantasmal force on a power build credit to team?

> I don't have a DPS meter but when people were calling out the top DPS I was like 3rd to 4th highest most of the time, and that was as a Mirage beating out the two chrono in the party. Maybe my team sucked at DPS, and we only got a fire brand later when I dropped to 4th (despite him being dead half the time lol), but we cleared content,

> so... I can't complain?

>

> I would like to do crazy DPS numbers, but I'm just happy I can contribute without having to roll chrono and play speed/alacrity bot, and this is something all mesmers have, even if it's a fiddly mechanic that probably needs a few QoL Buffs.

 

Once you learn how to do it, Power Mesmer is solid, consistent damage. It won't have as many situations in which its damage can go down the gutter like some of the more meta "max potential builds." For example, if you are not receiving permanent quickness and alacrity, or have to "dodge" a telegraph, Power Mesmer can usually just continue plugging along and doing just fine. If its a mobile boss fight in particular, or a fight in which you have to back off the boss a lot (Mathias) then it does even better than most other builds on average. Its also just hard to "play it poorly" once you get past the very basic learning curve of the build.

[Swiftwynd.1685]

> @musu.9205 said:

> @Swiftwynd.1685

> i will ask this again ....

 

Cute. Literally not worth my time to respond to you anymore as you are becoming a broken record. I even stated why we preferred to use two power mesmers and two tempests. Not repeating myself.

 

Come back when you can full clear bud :dizzy:

 

 

[musu.9205]

> @Daishi.6027 said:

> I haven't started raiding until recently. But isn't like 3 Illusionary swordsmen with Phantasmal force on a power build credit to team?

> I don't have a DPS meter but when people were calling out the top DPS I was like 3rd to 4th highest most of the time, and that was as a Mirage beating out the two chrono in the party. Maybe my team sucked at DPS, and we only got a fire brand later when I dropped to 4th (despite him being dead half the time lol), but we cleared content,

> so... I can't complain?

>

> I would like to do crazy DPS numbers, but I'm just happy I can contribute without having to roll chrono and play speed/alacrity bot, and this is something all mesmers have, even if it's a fiddly mechanic that probably needs a few QoL Buffs.

 

first of all

just let you know

there are only 4 dps slots in raid group. rest are support roles . it means they are supposed to do less dps by default

 

second , there are more mechanic a dps role needs to take care of for each boss . mesmer are usually not good at those things due to how illusion works .

 

third

no one competes dps with chrono . if your dps is close or lower than chrono on a dps role , it would be an auto kick from pug .

 

and I have many logs that shows im top dps for few bosses , that doesn't solve anything about dps mesmer problem , I'm fully aware that when i did the truly top dps not that third or forth , my teammate will put more effort to take care of other mechanic than simply dps . i can try hard to help my group , but right now most dps builds offer higher dps + better utilities and will have far easier time to deal with adds clean sort of things .

[Swiftwynd.1685]

> @apharma.3741 said:

> You clearly have no clue what you are talking about Swiftwynd, many power dps builds spike damage (go watch any dps test with a running arc meter) and then fall to where they should be, this is usually over the first 10-20s of a fight. Case in point was firebrand at the start of PoF where it was doing over 50k on golems in the first 30s of the tests before falling dramatically in the later part.

 

Cool? All I know is I've reviewed my logs and yea, there is the initial build up, but then its a consistent damage number for the remainder of the fight that doesnt dip and deviate as much as some other builds, particularly on bosses that are more mobile.

 

The average damage across the fight is very good, to the point of being able to clear the content without *any* issues due to "low team damage." As a raid leader who trains several times a week, I know about raid comps bud. You eventually only need X amount of damage for any fight. Anything beyond that is fluff damage to feel good about your ego and won't have an impact on the raid's success rate unless someone dies.

 

My entire point has not been that Power Mesmer is the best damage dealer.

 

My entire point is that it is absolutely viable, and the trade off of 5 to 8k "Potential" damage is absolutely made up for by its Swiss army knife utility you can bring, while bringing sufficient damage to always beat the encounter. Again, I strongly prefer 1 or 2 Power Mesmers in my Keep Construct kills over just running 4 of the "top damage professions." Why? Because you literally have a cut off point in which more damage simply doesnt help. Faster breaks *do* help, however, as does the focus pull making the orb phase go faster and smoother.

 

 

People trying to preach that Power Mesmer isnt "viable" for raids are simply not informed. They just arent. It is viable, useful, and I have killed every boss in the game with it with a variety of other groups and players, often out damaging the "superior" damage builds that have more complex rotations or damage conditions that cannot always be maintained reliably in a mixed-skill group.

 

So, again to anyone reading this, if you WANT to play Power Mesmer and like a DPS role that brings additional utility to make your chrono/druid's lives easier, Power Mesmer is viable, and you are welcome to come join my Discord server GW2 Raid Training if you would like a place where you will not be judged by elitists.

 

 

EDIT:

 

I need to update my ARC and make sure its set to start recording logs again, as I havent had my last few weeks recorded it looks like.

 

https://www.gw2raidar.com/encounter/ImaginationSwellApprovedExpertiseVideos

 

This was a pretty smooth KC kill from back in September. Again, this isn't to show "omg look at how high the damage is!" but more to show you what an actual, realistic raid damage parse looks like. With Raidar, you can see the "average" of uploaded logs from anyone who has uploaded in a bar behind your actual damage.

 

As you can see, the Tempest that was with us (who I consider a good raider) on this fight did in fact beat me. By 24,756 boss to my 22,695, a total boss DPS difference of 2,061 damage, or 8.32% more damage than myself. The other mesmer who was less experienced and trying out the build for the first time hit 20,013. Finally, an extremely inexperienced Daredevil from LFG that we brought in to fill only managed 13,862. We still beat KC without any issue on this fight.

 

And mind you, KC is one of the most DPS-centric fights alongside Gorseval. When I mean "It does enough damage to get the job done" I'm not talking out of my arse.

 

Also please note my Cleave (total) damage relative to his. The difference is even smaller. Please, please, please stop saying "hurr Mesmer has LITERALLY NO CLEAVE."

 

[Swiftwynd.1685]

> @Daishi.6027 said:

> I haven't started raiding until recently. But isn't like 3 Illusionary swordsmen with Phantasmal force on a power build credit to team?

> I don't have a DPS meter but when people were calling out the top DPS I was like 3rd to 4th highest most of the time, and that was as a Mirage beating out the two chrono in the party. Maybe my team sucked at DPS, and we only got a fire brand later when I dropped to 4th (despite him being dead half the time lol), but we cleared content,

> so... I can't complain?

>

> I would like to do crazy DPS numbers, but I'm just happy I can contribute without having to roll chrono and play speed/alacrity bot, and this is something all mesmers have, even if it's a fiddly mechanic that probably needs a few QoL Buffs.

 

The best thing to do is to install ARC DPS meter from https://www.deltaconnected.com/arcdps/

 

You drag that d3d9.dll into your Programs > GW2 folder > bin 64

 

It will handle the rest, might require you to log in, then completely out, then back in before it starts to function. Ctrl + Shift + T brings up the full window list, and on it, you have the option to generate EVTC logs in the Logs section at the bottom. This will allow you to actually see really cool information on how well you did during the fight, how much others were providing you with boons and alacrity etc, how well you did during specific phases etc.

 

I recommend uploading those to:

 

https://dps.report/

 

and

 

https://www.gw2raidar.com/

 

 

No matter what professions you choose to eventually raid with, that will help you improve at all of them and will show you what you want to work on relative to others :)

[Carighan.6758]

> @Zenith.7301 said:

> In fractals and cleave raid fights, mesmer is complete trash and your group is carrying you hard through trash, which is virtually the vast majority of the fractal outside 99/100/mai trin/molten duo.

 

"Carrying hard" for content as undertuned as Fractal trash mobs is a bit of a weird concept though, don't you think?

 

[Daishi.6027]

> @Swiftwynd.1685 said:

> > @Daishi.6027 said:

> > I haven't started raiding until recently. But isn't like 3 Illusionary swordsmen with Phantasmal force on a power build credit to team?

> > I don't have a DPS meter but when people were calling out the top DPS I was like 3rd to 4th highest most of the time, and that was as a Mirage beating out the two chrono in the party. Maybe my team sucked at DPS, and we only got a fire brand later when I dropped to 4th (despite him being dead half the time lol), but we cleared content,

> > so... I can't complain?

> >

> > I would like to do crazy DPS numbers, but I'm just happy I can contribute without having to roll chrono and play speed/alacrity bot, and this is something all mesmers have, even if it's a fiddly mechanic that probably needs a few QoL Buffs.

>

> The best thing to do is to install ARC DPS meter from https://www.deltaconnected.com/arcdps/

>

> You drag that d3d9.dll into your Programs > GW2 folder > bin 64

>

> It will handle the rest, might require you to log in, then completely out, then back in before it starts to function. Ctrl + Shift + T brings up the full window list, and on it, you have the option to generate EVTC logs in the Logs section at the bottom. This will allow you to actually see really cool information on how well you did during the fight, how much others were providing you with boons and alacrity etc, how well you did during specific phases etc.

>

> I recommend uploading those to:

>

> https://dps.report/

>

> and

>

> https://www.gw2raidar.com/

>

>

> No matter what professions you choose to eventually raid with, that will help you improve at all of them and will show you what you want to work on relative to others :)

 

I was really hoping to keep my client clean, but thank you I will use it.

[dontlook.1823]

This got a little bit too wrapped up in raiding. There is a tab for that in the forums. I also mentioned hostility in my OP and this is quickly becoming nothing less than that.

 

In any case, the fact that guards got a pretty decent DPS buff is mainly what I'm trying to get across here. The first round was very similar to what they recently did to Mesmers. I'd like to see what else they might have in store.

 

 

[apharma.3741]

> @Swiftwynd.1685 said:

> > @apharma.3741 said:

> > You clearly have no clue what you are talking about Swiftwynd, many power dps builds spike damage (go watch any dps test with a running arc meter) and then fall to where they should be, this is usually over the first 10-20s of a fight. Case in point was firebrand at the start of PoF where it was doing over 50k on golems in the first 30s of the tests before falling dramatically in the later part.

>

> Cool? All I know is I've reviewed my logs and yea, there is the initial build up, but then its a consistent damage number for the remainder of the fight that doesnt dip and deviate as much as some other builds, particularly on bosses that are more mobile.

>

> The average damage across the fight is very good, to the point of being able to clear the content without *any* issues due to "low team damage." As a raid leader who trains several times a week, I know about raid comps bud. You eventually only need X amount of damage for any fight. Anything beyond that is fluff damage to feel good about your ego and won't have an impact on the raid's success rate unless someone dies.

>

> My entire point has not been that Power Mesmer is the best damage dealer.

>

> My entire point is that it is absolutely viable, and the trade off of 5 to 8k "Potential" damage is absolutely made up for by its Swiss army knife utility you can bring, while bringing sufficient damage to always beat the encounter. Again, I strongly prefer 1 or 2 Power Mesmers in my Keep Construct kills over just running 4 of the "top damage professions." Why? Because you literally have a cut off point in which more damage simply doesnt help. Faster breaks *do* help, however, as does the focus pull making the orb phase go faster and smoother.

>

>

> People trying to preach that Power Mesmer isnt "viable" for raids are simply not informed. They just arent. It is viable, useful, and I have killed every boss in the game with it with a variety of other groups and players, often out damaging the "superior" damage builds that have more complex rotations or damage conditions that cannot always be maintained reliably in a mixed-skill group.

>

> So, again to anyone reading this, if you WANT to play Power Mesmer and like a DPS role that brings additional utility to make your chrono/druid's lives easier, Power Mesmer is viable, and you are welcome to come join my Discord server GW2 Raid Training if you would like a place where you will not be judged by elitists.

>

>

> EDIT:

>

> I need to update my ARC and make sure its set to start recording logs again, as I havent had my last few weeks recorded it looks like.

>

> https://www.gw2raidar.com/encounter/ImaginationSwellApprovedExpertiseVideos

>

> This was a pretty smooth KC kill from back in September. Again, this isn't to show "omg look at how high the damage is!" but more to show you what an actual, realistic raid damage parse looks like. With Raidar, you can see the "average" of uploaded logs from anyone who has uploaded in a bar behind your actual damage.

>

> As you can see, the Tempest that was with us (who I consider a good raider) on this fight did in fact beat me. By 24,756 boss to my 22,695, a total boss DPS difference of 2,061 damage, or 8.32% more damage than myself. The other mesmer who was less experienced and trying out the build for the first time hit 20,013. Finally, an extremely inexperienced Daredevil from LFG that we brought in to fill only managed 13,862. We still beat KC without any issue on this fight.

>

> And mind you, KC is one of the most DPS-centric fights alongside Gorseval. **When I mean "It does enough damage to get the job done" I'm not talking out of my kitten.**

>

> Also please note my Cleave (total) damage relative to his. The difference is even smaller. Please, please, please stop saying "hurr Mesmer has LITERALLY NO CLEAVE."

>

 

So what exactly are you saying because you went on a tirade at my post when I said exactly that 1 dps mesmer wasn't something you would kick?! Arguing for the sake of arguing I guess. I have not said dps mesmer isn't viable just that it has fundimental mechanical issues which I outlined, in some cases they work decidedly against the mesmer, other times it's of no consequence and other times it works for mesmer. However, given the current trend of fractals good luck getting any group to take you for CM runs on power mesmer for the reasons I outlined. Just because 10 man grouped content covers the flaws of design it doesn't mean they aren't there.

 

Time taken for condi mes to get to 25k is about 13s, at every single point before hand it does less than that.

 

This shows power mesmer taking less time to reach 25k however it seems to spend an eternity at that mark only really starting to climb after 20s and this is using a racial elite instead of a mesmer specific elite skill to help buff those numbers a bit.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yzWj86hgdXs

This is DH (as we're talking about guardians in the thread) doing it's rotation on a golem, if you pay attention to that opening damage you see it spikes up to and over 50k for the first few seconds then drops down to the average of 37-38k So during the time taken for mesmer to build up to 25k the DH is doing double that damage, over 10s alone the DH will do half a million damage to the golem/boss in a burn phase while the mesmer is at best doing 25-30k and at worst considerably less (all depends on whether phantasms survive and are targetted on boss). This is why I say poor for burn phases, they have poor spike.

 

So to say mesmer has a bit of a ramp up time is disingenuous to say the least, you're trying to pass off microwave meals as gourmet cuisine.

 

As for your raider link, sure, nicely showing mesmer does well in bad to average groups, the ele had 19 might in burn phase 3, makes very little difference to the mesmer due to it's mechanics as swordsman should already be at max phantasmal force if surviving from preburn. Fury, 77%, really shafts the ele, alacrity isn't great either which means the ele doesn't get the extra damage, this is more pronounced with weaver now.

 

DPS mesmer does well in bad groups, it's not overly reliant on alacrity with might and quickness being the most effective boons for it due to BF and auto rotation and phantasms get no boons a lot of the time.

 

Also please don't pass off cleave damage in KC as anything special, everyone knows KC has barely anything to cleave and as I say the other 3 DPS will effortlessly kill the phantasms just as well, usually better than mesmer. Also please **read before you make silly comments** I didn't say mesmer had no cleave, I said poor, which is true, go show me your cleave on Xera and Sabetha compared to non lobotomised players.

 

To clarify, I am not saying dps mesmer cannot do raids, it can and it shouldn't be a problem as long as your other 3 DPS aren't completely useless. What I am saying is that due to it's mechanical limitations dps mesmer is not an ideal pick in a variety of encounters which other dps classes do not have to consider at all. I am also saying because of these issues dps mesmer is also almost completely useless in challenging fractal content (CMs) as it will perform considerably poorer than other classes when used at an average level.

[Cyninja.2954]

> @Swiftwynd.1685 said:

> > @Daishi.6027 said:

> > I haven't started raiding until recently. But isn't like 3 Illusionary swordsmen with Phantasmal force on a power build credit to team?

> > I don't have a DPS meter but when people were calling out the top DPS I was like 3rd to 4th highest most of the time, and that was as a Mirage beating out the two chrono in the party. Maybe my team sucked at DPS, and we only got a fire brand later when I dropped to 4th (despite him being dead half the time lol), but we cleared content,

> > so... I can't complain?

> >

> > I would like to do crazy DPS numbers, but I'm just happy I can contribute without having to roll chrono and play speed/alacrity bot, and this is something all mesmers have, even if it's a fiddly mechanic that probably needs a few QoL Buffs.

>

> Once you learn how to do it, Power Mesmer is solid, consistent damage. It won't have as many situations in which its damage can go down the gutter like some of the more meta "max potential builds." For example, if you are not receiving permanent quickness and alacrity, or have to "dodge" a telegraph, Power Mesmer can usually just continue plugging along and doing just fine. If its a mobile boss fight in particular, or a fight in which you have to back off the boss a lot (Mathias) then it does even better than most other builds on average. Its also just hard to "play it poorly" once you get past the very basic learning curve of the build.

 

First off, you are arguing from a position of mediocrity. We all know mesmer (both Mirage and power core) have a solid easy baseline damage they provide. This is the main benefit and detriment of having damage tied to AI pets. As long as the mesmer stays alive, he will provide damage. That's nothing new.

 

Just as is the fact that mesmer due to his pet mechanic benefits less from alacrity, quickness and might. Which benefits a mesmer if the raid is lacking in this department.

 

Look at what your baseline of arguments is based on though:

 

- bad alacrity, quickness and might. This is an issue only in bad pugs or very unskilled/new static groups

- subpar damage dealers who are not able to keep up their rotation. Literally sub 200 LI territory

- specific encounters which benefit the unique mesmer pet mechanic (yes we know matthias favors mesmer greatly)

 

You are very biased and focusing on subpar or low skill groups. Yes, in a low skill enviroment a mesmer will perform adequately.

 

Also the argument that you full clear is moot. Every experienced raider full clears weekly. The question is, how fast and efficient are you full clearing and how much of the mesmer slack has to be picked up by other classes?

 

The thought example of musu is valid by the way, how well would a raid with 4 mesmer as damage dealers work out? If mesmer was so strong in every department as you claim (not lacking aoe, not having significant winde uptime, etc.) it should be a non issue. I sincerely doubt that's the case.

 

As far as fractals, this is the most evident place where one notices the shortcommings of mesmers. Winduptime on trash mobs which just get cleaved down by other dps and low non-shatter cleave make high level fractals tedious at best with a mesmer as damage dealer.

[Feanor.2358]

> @dontlook.1823 said:

> Just wondering if anyone remembers this... About three years ago Guardians we're receiving a lot of attention about their DPS. After some time a new patch came out giving the eight professions at the time a new heal. Also, the Guardian was given a substantial DPS buff along with the promise of future buffs to it's DPS.

>

> Along came Heart of Thorns with the new Dragon Hunter specialization and Guardians received a proper righteous redress to their grievance.

>

> I've been playing Guild Wars 2 since launch PVX (PvE, PvP, and WvW) so I have a pretty good handle over most content I encounter. I must say that lately I have been lacking in PvP. Though I can say I have been shacking it up in PVE.

>

> My daily experience is rather hostile at the moment. By that I mean, each day I'm faced with messages in LFG exclaiming team composition standards otherwise known as "Meta." At first, it was very easy to dismiss these messages and start my own group; however, lately I find myself very tired. Tired of hearing things such that, "are you running Chrono," "is Chrono not good anymore?" "Is that a power Mesmer!?" It's no news to anyone that DPS in this game has a large gap for Mesmer as they place 10th and lower on their benchmarks.

>

> Earlier this year it was rumored that each class was going to be giving the opportunity to reach a 30k DPS benchmark. This is not bad but not necessarily good either. While Elementalist and Guardians vie for the top spot in DPS for 40-50k. I'm stuck cheering them on with my mere 30kDPS.

>

> The problem is, I want every profession to have that chance to say, "Yeah I'm top DPS." Not just a hand full of professions that should carry the rest of their teams DPS. What we have here is a snow-ball going down one slippery slope. Not only that, it really only contributes to an already prevalent issue within Guild Wars 2. For example, the Necromancer was savagely booted from raids for more than half of the time Heart of Thorns was live. Problems such as these cannot continue to go unaddressed for as long as they have been.

>

> Each profession has something to bring to the table, something unique to offer the group. It should by no means, mean players use prescribed builds for some sort of reaching perfection that very swiftly knocks other professions out as sub-optimal. There has to be some detrimental loss for losing out on a whole profession. Whether it means buffing those barriors, increasing the damage confusion deals much like the reverent's torment, there just has to be more of a, "ahh just couldn't get one of those in my party, maybe next time." Instead of this callous exclusivity.

>

> I firmly stand my ground when I say game play like that is all around toxic. I am a firm believer that people should play what they know and like as long as your doing something ( doing dps, grabbing aggro, clearing mechanics, so on and so forth.) I genuinely think the quality of life for Guild Wars 2 players will increase once these DPS matters get under control. One last thought, condition damage should not out weigh that of power damage; it should simply be a choice, a play-style kind of thing.

>

> Ulitimatly, Guild Wars 2 is a MMO **RPG** get into character have fun with what your doing and above all be effective. Cause last time I checked I don't use meters to tell me I'm 2nd in behind so and so nor do I ever wish to do so. I would just like potential builds out there bring what they are capable of. Instead of being boxed in a certain role. I.e. each profession should have the ability to do just as the other profession can do just with a little bit different flavor.

>

> Hit my inbox up for all the latest DPS benchmarks and builds. I'll send a link. Hopefully we can get somewhere from here

>

> With regards,

>

> Egrek

>

 

You might want to try actually playing different classes before talking about DPS in general. You're looking at the golem benchmarks and you're drawing conclusions based on that. It doesn't tell you the whole story. True, a Weaver will always out-DPS a mesmer on KC with a large margin. However, a Mirage will out-DPS a Weaver on Matthias with a large margin. I would go as far as to say that currently every class has at least a valid niche when it comes to damage-dealing. True, some of these "niches" are wider and more generally applicable. One of the drawbacks of the mesmer has always been the lack of cleave. Mirage actually does something in that regard. Sure, it still is not as good as other damage dealers when we're talking about doing content in general. But then again, you don't need to - and you won't be able to - hit golem numbers in that.