Mesmer DPS and DPS in general.

[Swiftwynd.1685]

> @Feanor.2358 said:

> > @apharma.3741 said:

> > I like how Swiftwynd has a fetish for weaver, constantly goes on about it’s harder rotation and how mesmer is easier. There are other classes, stop being a toxic elitist and only looking at qT benchmarks and assuming everyone must play weaver. Many play scourge, firebrand, thief and ranger, all of which have a far more simple rotation than weaver, don’t get shafted by your team being unable to find their kitten with both hands and don’t have excessive channel times and fragility.

> >

> > They are also offer a much better damage profile and maximum damage.

> >

> > Also while on the subject of toxicity, your response is full of it Swiftwynd where you instead of trying to debate with facts or reason you instead opted to use insults and degradation in order to discredit someone else’s opinion.

> >

> > Fyi, I have led my own raid group and advised 2 others from the level of 10 people who had no clue up to 10 people who can now kill or clear every week. I know what’s effective per skill level, I know to adjust comps depending on what turns up and have run groups without chronos before yet still got kills easily by running safe builds. I and many other people here are not new to raiding, we’re not “meta or gtfo” people, we just have standards and seek to improve above mediocrity.

>

> If anyone has a fetish about weaver, it should be me. I've been an ele main since vanilla release and for a long time it was the sole class I played. However, I definitely do not recommend it for everyone and certainly not everywhere. I stick with weaver on most bosses, cause, you know, it's my main. I still get better results with a Mirage on both Matthias and Cairn, and pretty much any decent condi build on Sabetha and MO. I can also recommend Firebrand over a Weaver on Sloth because of all the QoL that comes with it - stunbreak & Aegis every 12 seconds, extra pulls, excellent cleave, not to mention the extra Quickness. I know, I know, every raid chrono upkeeps 100% quickness uptime by himself at all times, regardless of mechanics and mistakes made. So yeah... just play what you like. As long as the build is sensible for the encounter and you can play it on a decent level, you wouldn't be hindering your group.

 

Couldn't agree more :)

[Nozome.7853]

> @Swiftwynd.1685 said:

> > @Nozome.7853 said:

> > The problem with mesmer is that it relies on the phantasms too much and you need a long time until you reach your max dmg output. This is the reason why mesmer only performs well on mathias and cairn... they dont "disappear" like the rest of the bosses. So with a measly 31k and 34k dps you are effectively kitten on every other boss . Even if mesmer was performing 40k+ dps on the golem , it would be still kitten in every boss besides mat/cairn...

> >

>

> They actually don't disappear.

>

> Deimos is the only boss that they 100% disappear on for sure, and the only other mechanics that kill them are getting Sacrificed on Mathias and when you become a slubling on sloth. Every other boss they can be maintained 100% of the time without them disappearing, so the "ramp up" time is literally only the first 12 seconds of the fight more or less.

 

So you're gonna keep the pistol phantasms for the the split on VG and be completely useless in that phase? Be useless again with the spirits on gorse? Not kill the champions on sabetha? Thats only for w1...

Just a 12 sec "ramp up"... top kek... what are you even arguing for?

[Knox.8962]

> @musu.9205 said:

> > @FaboBabo.3581 said:

> > can anone test following related to the condi Mirage Dps benchmark.

> > -> When havin 3 ipstols out, and pistol 4 is ready again, wait until all 3 phants attacked, then double cast axe 2, replacing one phant twice(?), and then instantly replace the clone for pistol 4 phant again.

> >

> > If all 3 phants attacked we wont have a loss if we time the double axe cast well, adn replace the phantasm, so he is the first one in the phant attack-cycle, is my theory.

>

> > @Knox.8962 said:

> > > @FaboBabo.3581 said:

> > > > @Knox.8962 said:

> > > > > @FaboBabo.3581 said:

> > > > > can anone test following related to the condi Mirage Dps benchmark.

> > > > > -> When havin 3 ipstols out, and pistol 4 is ready again, wait until all 3 phants attacked, then double cast axe 2, replacing one phant twice(?), and then instantly replace the clone for pistol 4 phant again.

> > > > >

> > > > > If all 3 phants attacked we wont have a loss if we time the double axe cast well, adn replace the phantasm, so he is the first one in the phant attack-cycle, is my theory.

> > > >

> > > > In testing this a week or two ago, what we saw was that the DPS was pretty close to neutral without a field down. If you have somebody spamming damaging fields, the DPS of the option where you use axe 2 increases over just letting the phantasms stay alive.

> > > >

> > > > Also worth noting: In general, an axe clone in full raid buffs is about a 700 DPS loss compared to a traited pistol phantasm. So 3 axe clones spamming AA are about 2k DPS below 3 pistol phantasms.

> > >

> > > So with good timing u can make use of it ?

> >

> > In golem testing, this setup beat the 3 phantasm setup by about 500 DPS if you have fire fields down full time. It was about 150 DPS lower without fields.

> >

> > Additionally, if you need cleave damage, using 3 axe clones puts you at about 32k DPS, but you get significantly improved cleave damage and almost 0 ramp up time.

> >

> > Oddly, using axe 2 or axe 3 with 3 clones up seems to actually hurt your DPS as it interrupts the clone attacks preventing them from landing the last AA hit.

>

> but isnt axe 3 clone supposed to hit with 5 confusion too ?

> its so easy to fail since the rng part .

 

I haven't had any issues with the attacks failing on the golem. The big issue is that the axe AA chain is super back loaded, so anything that interrupts this chain is a major stumbling block to DPS. Using 2x axe 2 with phantasms up replaces 1 phantasm with a clone, and then replaces the clone with another clone. If you then replace that with a phantasm, you really only need to wait for the phantasm stacks to ramp back up to hit your damage again. This can be a winning trade if you have fields to proc with the whirl finisher.

 

When you do the same attack with 3 clones up, the oldest clone gets replaced with a new clone, and then the 2nd oldest clone gets replaced with a new clone. This effectively resets the AA for 2 of your clones, which is bad news. This seems to cost you on average about 3-500 DPS over just AA-ing.

[Cyninja.2954]

> @Nozome.7853 said:

> > @Swiftwynd.1685 said:

> > > @Nozome.7853 said:

> > > The problem with mesmer is that it relies on the phantasms too much and you need a long time until you reach your max dmg output. This is the reason why mesmer only performs well on mathias and cairn... they dont "disappear" like the rest of the bosses. So with a measly 31k and 34k dps you are effectively kitten on every other boss . Even if mesmer was performing 40k+ dps on the golem , it would be still kitten in every boss besides mat/cairn...

> > >

> >

> > They actually don't disappear.

> >

> > Deimos is the only boss that they 100% disappear on for sure, and the only other mechanics that kill them are getting Sacrificed on Mathias and when you become a slubling on sloth. Every other boss they can be maintained 100% of the time without them disappearing, so the "ramp up" time is literally only the first 12 seconds of the fight more or less.

>

> So you're gonna keep the pistol phantasms for the the split on VG and be completely useless in that phase? Be useless again with the spirits on gorse? Not kill the champions on sabetha? Thats only for w1...

> Just a 12 sec "ramp up"... top kek... what are you even arguing for?

 

I always wonder when people bring this up too.

 

It's as though they are completely forgetting that in order for phantasms to remain active they have to be far less useful on splits as mesmer (again having other dps have to cover for them).

 

It's actually all the bosses in wing 1, for Sabatha you either don't do cannons as mesmer (meaning another dps has to cover that) and have your phantasms attack random stuff inbetween Sabatha being there, or you have to resummon them. Granted it is less of an issue compared to VG and Gore since "most" of the phantasm attack will hit one of her lieutenants and the smaller adds get cleaved down quite fast by the cPS in the group.

[Kanto.1659]

I was reading up to half way through and then gave up since it turned into bickering that didn't show signs of stopping. REAL damage is what matters, not theoretical. Yes, QT golem tests are a benchmark. But few reach it during a real encounter.

 

I have a friend I played with in WoW. Despite the same spec, about the same gear, and hitting the same numbers when we were both side by side hitting a training dummy their numbers were consistently a full 30% lower than mine during the raids. APM, managing to keep rotations going while doing mechanics, managing to stay alive, an easy rotation that can be kept going are things that make the difference.

 

No one ever uses training dummy numbers in WoW. No one happily shows their best while hitting a dummy (in fact, the concept would be met with amusement). Every time showing off comes in OR when a benchmark is called upon ONLY raid logs are used.

 

I know GW2 has something like those raid log sites, so use it instead of QT benchmarks, sheesh. Obviously don't pull out the numbers of someone who had to do particular mechanics that are necessary to not wipe the raid which will break their damage.

[musu.9205]

> @Kanto.1659 said:

> I was reading up to half way through and then gave up since it turned into bickering that didn't show signs of stopping. REAL damage is what matters, not theoretical. Yes, QT golem tests are a benchmark. But few reach it during a real encounter.

>

> I have a friend I played with in WoW. Despite the same spec, about the same gear, and hitting the same numbers when we were both side by side hitting a training dummy their numbers were consistently a full 30% lower than mine during the raids. APM, managing to keep rotations going while doing mechanics, managing to stay alive, an easy rotation that can be kept going are things that make the difference.

>

> No one ever uses training dummy numbers in WoW. No one happily shows their best while hitting a dummy (in fact, the concept would be met with amusement). Every time showing off comes in OR when a benchmark is called upon ONLY raid logs are used.

>

> I know GW2 has something like those raid log sites, so use it instead of QT benchmarks, sheesh. Obviously don't pull out the numbers of someone who had to do particular mechanics that are necessary to not wipe the raid which will break their damage.

 

you guys are arguing for arguing sake .

already said

for many bosses , mesmer actual dps is lower due to target switch .

 

and due to mesmer mechanic , they hardly fit for shards clean etc as a dps role .

other dps do have to cover those for mes .

you want to play dps mesmer , fine , go ahead .

but don't come here and tell us you get good numbers so mesmer is fine . beside carin and matt , you are carried as mesmer. if you don't believe this , try 4 mesmer dps .

 

also the reality in gw2 raid is most meta dps builds do transform into actual raid dps very well .some are even better like firebrand f1 will be refreshed during actual raid fight ,condi rev will get more bleed from allies attack .yeah they can not do exact dps number on actual boss .but gw2 raid isnt that hard enough to make easy class ideal . we have matt and that's it .

 

as a mesmer , you can't do much either to improve your dps or help your group .

and people already pointed out , you don't need to play hardcore weaver to get highest possible dps , there are more easy dps builds out there which is not much harder than a mesmer (firebrand build maybe even easier ) and they perform much better than a mesmer .

 

if you actually read what qt said about mesmer , you won't talk like that qt only posted benchmarks then everyone lost their mind .

nope

 

we as mesmer dps has

lower dps number than pretty much every dps class

harder time to catch up after everytime boss goes away

much harder time to deal with adds or additional mechanic which requires dps kill other stuff rather than boss

lower burst

bring little cc (note new pof elite has less cc in general but most other dps classes have utilities make up for this ).

mostly no useful utilities.things like rebound , gale song etc.

 

let's take look at sloth

 

1. eat mushroom will destroy your dps you have to catch up again after that ,if as a dps you dont eat mushroom , you cost your group much more dps loss

2. you can bring feedback here , which will lower condi mirage dps but its still better , so this is a +

3. you will have hard time to clean adds .

4. your cc are on long cd which makes them unreliable for sloth cc phase

5. dps mesmer doesnt bring much utilities like gale song to let you bypass mechanic .

6. most dps builds dont have a huge rng weapon which is condi mirage axe

7. vital damage mainly comes from ground target aoe , + shake + adds condition .unlike necro or tempest , mesmer doesnt have much condition removal . mirage cloak or sword 2 also lost most advantage here .

8. raid group usually run 2 chronos which make focus pull etc a moot point for dps mesmer .since its already covered by mesmer support build .

 

so even if you only care about kill

taking dps mesmer will still result high risk for little gain over other class like DH .

its not about numbers ,it's if we play dps mesmer in most raid ,we are purposely making boss kill harder for everyone else no matter what dps number we could get .

and in fact . even in pugs dps mesmer usually dont get high number comparing to any other dps class.

 

all those reasons lead to a simple thing : people do not want dps mesmer in 90% raid.

stop thinking about raid like it's pre dps meter time and people kick anything thats not an ele .

no, reality is most pugs accept most classes as dps except so called dps mesmer being niche in raid scene like forever.

[apharma.3741]

> @Kanto.1659 said:

> I was reading up to half way through and then gave up since it turned into bickering that didn't show signs of stopping. REAL damage is what matters, not theoretical. Yes, QT golem tests are a benchmark. But few reach it during a real encounter.

>

> I have a friend I played with in WoW. Despite the same spec, about the same gear, and hitting the same numbers when we were both side by side hitting a training dummy their numbers were consistently a full 30% lower than mine during the raids. APM, managing to keep rotations going while doing mechanics, managing to stay alive, an easy rotation that can be kept going are things that make the difference.

>

> No one ever uses training dummy numbers in WoW. No one happily shows their best while hitting a dummy (in fact, the concept would be met with amusement). Every time showing off comes in OR when a benchmark is called upon ONLY raid logs are used.

>

> I know GW2 has something like those raid log sites, so use it instead of QT benchmarks, sheesh. Obviously don't pull out the numbers of someone who had to do particular mechanics that are necessary to not wipe the raid which will break their damage.

 

See, here is where the argument gets a bit weird, I do agree real raid numbers are much better to use when showing off the performance of a class however numbers then become open to interpretation and manipulation. You can look solely at boss damage at Sabetha and it is clear by a large margin that mesmer is 2nd best dps there right?

 

Wrong, there are only 2 dps players attacking the boss that the damage is recorded on for the duration of attackable time so really the only competition for the mesmer is the cPS.

 

Ok but what about KC, surely that’s straight forward enough that there can be no doubt about how well classes perform? Weeeeellllll not entirely. I’ve noticed a few things with KC logs, sometimes it shows with the full 5 rift debuff so players will show up on the logs doing 160-200k dps, other times they don’t and show up doing 33k. That’s without mentioning some guilds and players choose to forgo rifts almost entirely getting a single rift as the orb flies straight out and choosing to spend less time faffing around with it. This strategy relies exclusively on using some of the absolute top damage dealers playing well but most importantly they have to have extremely good cleave damage so that they can spend 100% or close to that damaging and burning the boss down.

 

So yeah, different strategies for different skill levels. I wouldn’t start people off doing the qT way on KC, not a single chance and likewise many non experienced groups used to take a much wider path at Sloth, something many experienced raiders would scoff at now. Sending condi to take care of cannons? Unthinkable when wing 1 came out, now certain classes can do it easily.

[Vieux P.1238]

> @Swiftwynd.1685 said:

> > @Daishi.6027 said:

> > I haven't started raiding until recently. But isn't like 3 Illusionary swordsmen with Phantasmal force on a power build credit to team?

> > I don't have a DPS meter but when people were calling out the top DPS I was like 3rd to 4th highest most of the time, and that was as a Mirage beating out the two chrono in the party. Maybe my team sucked at DPS, and we only got a fire brand later when I dropped to 4th (despite him being dead half the time lol), but we cleared content,

> > so... I can't complain?

> >

> > I would like to do crazy DPS numbers, but I'm just happy I can contribute without having to roll chrono and play speed/alacrity bot, and this is something all mesmers have, even if it's a fiddly mechanic that probably needs a few QoL Buffs.

>

> Once you learn how to do it, Power Mesmer is solid, consistent damage. It won't have as many situations in which its damage can go down the gutter like some of the more meta "max potential builds." For example, if you are not receiving permanent quickness and alacrity, or have to "dodge" a telegraph, Power Mesmer can usually just continue plugging along and doing just fine. If its a mobile boss fight in particular, or a fight in which you have to back off the boss a lot (Mathias) then it does even better than most other builds on average. Its also just hard to "play it poorly" once you get past the very basic learning curve of the build.

 

But it gets sooooo boring. It's been the same shatter mechanic since day 1. Other classes actually have new ways to burst out dps compare to mesmers.

[Feanor.2358]

You're cherry-picking your example. Sloth is one of the bosses where cleave is most valuable, so naturally a dps mesmer will be suboptimal there. Following the same logic I can say Weaver is a bad pick overall because it's not suited for Matthias. It is true that adds are a more common addition to the fights than the amount of movement Matthias does, but the point still stands. For most fights you can take a Mirage and pull your weight. Same as any other dps class, really. None of them is universally good.

[Cyninja.2954]

> @Feanor.2358 said:

> You're cherry-picking your example. Sloth is one of the bosses where cleave is most valuable, so naturally a dps mesmer will be suboptimal there. Following the same logic I can say Weaver is a bad pick overall because it's not suited for Matthias. It is true that adds are a more common addition to the fights than the amount of movement Matthias does, but the point still stands. For most fights you can take a Mirage and pull your weight. Same as any other dps class, really. None of them is universally good.

 

VG, Gore, Sloth, Trio, Escort, Xera, MO and Deimos are all fights which either have mechanics where you either have adds to cleave or mechanics which require a desummon of phantasms to be efficient (or straight up desummon them). That's not even counting fights such as Sabatha where Mesmer can't jump or KC where bursty classes spike hard. That's 8-10 fights where mesmer is disadvantaged. Please show me which other high tier dps has so many fights where it's fighting an uphill battle?

 

In all those fights mentioned mesmer/mirage is reliant on other classes to pickup their slack, mostly in the department of area damage.

[musu.9205]

> @Feanor.2358 said:

> You're cherry-picking your example. Sloth is one of the bosses where cleave is most valuable, so naturally a dps mesmer will be suboptimal there. Following the same logic I can say Weaver is a bad pick overall because it's not suited for Matthias. It is true that adds are a more common addition to the fights than the amount of movement Matthias does, but the point still stands. For most fights you can take a Mirage and pull your weight. Same as any other dps class, really. None of them is universally good.

 

i mean , i could go on and explain why mirage is bad for most bosses except carin and matt which condi mes was good already .

but anyway take a look at qt site

let's ignore which is meta . just check how many bosses are not recommended for each class

 

https://qtfy.eu/guildwars/elementalist/staff-weaver/

1/11 not recommended

https://qtfy.eu/guildwars/mesmer/condi-mesmer/

9/11 not recommended

 

let's check some lower dps class too

https://qtfy.eu/guildwars/thief/condi-dd/

4/11 not recommended

 

and that doesn't count trio and escort . but do you thing mirage is any good there?

if you consider that's cherry picking ,i can only shrug.

yeah none of classes is universally good . but when raid came out for so long we do know which class fits most bosses while we are calling dps mesmer niche for reasons.

you can pull your weight as a dps mesmer . but truth is for most bosses , you don't have much weight beside mesmer lower dps number to begin with .

yeah you can still try hard to clean shards or do cannon on dps mesmer . but that just defeats the point of mesmer being easiest dps .also it risks whole team a wipe .

people do not like dps mesmer for reasons . they are not stupid . i said it again and again , they tried especially after power mesmer buff , they have dps meter , they can see what happens for themselves . guess what . after buff hype , about half a month , i hardly saw any power mesmer in pug .that maybe some mystery for you . but for rest of regular raiders , we made our choice.

 

 

[Feanor.2358]

> @Cyninja.2954 said:

> > @Feanor.2358 said:

> > You're cherry-picking your example. Sloth is one of the bosses where cleave is most valuable, so naturally a dps mesmer will be suboptimal there. Following the same logic I can say Weaver is a bad pick overall because it's not suited for Matthias. It is true that adds are a more common addition to the fights than the amount of movement Matthias does, but the point still stands. For most fights you can take a Mirage and pull your weight. Same as any other dps class, really. None of them is universally good.

>

> VG, Gore, Sloth, Trio, Escort, Xera, MO and Deimos are all fights which either have mechanics where you either have adds to cleave or mechanics which require a desummon of phantasms to be efficient (or straight up desummon them). That's not even counting fights such as Sabatha where Mesmer can't jump or KC where bursty classes spike hard. That's 8-10 fights where mesmer is disadvantaged. Please show me which other high tier dps has so many fights where it's fighting an uphill battle?

>

> In all those fights mentioned mesmer/mirage is reliant on other classes to pickup their slack, mostly in the department of area damage.

 

Please show me other high-tier dps which doubles up as a mandatory support.

[Cyninja.2954]

> @Feanor.2358 said:

> > @Cyninja.2954 said:

> > > @Feanor.2358 said:

> > > You're cherry-picking your example. Sloth is one of the bosses where cleave is most valuable, so naturally a dps mesmer will be suboptimal there. Following the same logic I can say Weaver is a bad pick overall because it's not suited for Matthias. It is true that adds are a more common addition to the fights than the amount of movement Matthias does, but the point still stands. For most fights you can take a Mirage and pull your weight. Same as any other dps class, really. None of them is universally good.

> >

> > VG, Gore, Sloth, Trio, Escort, Xera, MO and Deimos are all fights which either have mechanics where you either have adds to cleave or mechanics which require a desummon of phantasms to be efficient (or straight up desummon them). That's not even counting fights such as Sabatha where Mesmer can't jump or KC where bursty classes spike hard. That's 8-10 fights where mesmer is disadvantaged. Please show me which other high tier dps has so many fights where it's fighting an uphill battle?

> >

> > In all those fights mentioned mesmer/mirage is reliant on other classes to pickup their slack, mostly in the department of area damage.

>

> Please show me other high-tier dps which doubles up as a mandatory support.

 

What? Damage mesmer and mirage are in no way support. If they are, their damage is even further off from the benchmarks of other classes. Are we dealing with the "I have all trait lines and utilities availalbe at all time damage mesmer"?

 

Fine, Firebrand brings more support than either of our dps specs and higher damage with easy rotation. (not to mention that DH is still viable with a ton of passive utility)

Scourge brings a lot of support in form of barrier to the table (granted it needs to get some of its damage back which arenanet have already said they are working on after the recent change).

Condi Renegade provides alacrity, ferocity and might at the cost of some dps if need be (staying above Mirage and far above power core mesmer).

Soulbeast brings top tier dps and can bring along 1 spirit without any loss to it.

 

Oh wait, you are arguing that chrono is so strong that Mirage and power core are fine being undertuned. Yeah I agree, but is "our support build is super strong so our damage build gets to be weak" not another way of saying: mesmer damage builds are subpar? What was that you mentioned about cherry-picking earlier?

 

[Swiftwynd.1685]

> @Cyninja.2954 said:

> VG, Gore, Sloth, Trio, Escort, Xera, MO and Deimos are all fights which either have mechanics where you either have adds to cleave or mechanics which require a desummon of phantasms to be efficient (or straight up desummon them). That's not even counting fights such as Sabatha where Mesmer can't jump or KC where bursty classes spike hard. That's 8-10 fights where mesmer is disadvantaged. Please show me which other high tier dps has so many fights where it's fighting an uphill battle?

>

> In all those fights mentioned mesmer/mirage is reliant on other classes to pickup their slack, mostly in the department of area damage.

 

VG - Never desummons, ever, period, end of story. Split phase is the only "cleave-ish" needed part and frankly damage at that stage is literally all fluff. Mechanics of breaking / boon ripping and standing on greens are all that matter.

 

Sloth - Only desummons if you are a slubling eater, so at most once per fight for most runs. The additional Feedback + Focus Pull + Mantra of Resolve to cleanse conditions or signet of midnight + Signet of Humiliation ensures super snappy breaks, which otherwise significantly lower the raids effective damage and prolong the fight. Show me another dps role that can break as well as power mesmer while providing that utility at zero damage loss :) We also lose less having to drop off poison and dont have issues dealing with becoming the fixated target like some dps roles.

 

Trio - In the final boss fight, the reliable boss damage is decent for the final boss, but yes, definitely not the strongest fight for power mesmer. The ability to pull in foes and cleave them down fight fighting the bosses by using triple Focus phantasms is actually not bad though. Able to do motors but meh so can most lol.

 

Escort - back up portal mesmer if your tower mesmer takes a dive when dropping down to portal if they get CCed. Clumps with focus pull. Clears mines instantly with Mantra of Pain. Just another role for this though nothing particularly good or bad, but really, its escort lol ... just pull in stuff and cc lock and cleave.

 

Xera - while this fight does have some mechanics that despawn the phantasms if you get ported up, I still always run this build here. The additional fast breaks, and ability to clear the crystals fairly quickly if others arent paying attention, is useful. Not a top tier choice for the fight for sure, but the additional condition cleanse mantra + signet of midnight/humiliation for breaks, and just reliable damage while having to reposition her makes for some decent totals.

 

The focus pull to ENABLE the other professions to cleave even better, along with Sword 2 / Mantra of Pain, makes VERY short work of any adds. Literally, this cannot be understated... all that cleave potential on DH / Tempest / Weaver is utterly useless if battlemages et al are sitting at range and not getting clustered.

 

I'm usually top damage on the crystals during the initial two towers and during splits, if that matters. Its bursty enough to get the job done there to never have timer concerns.

 

Mursaat Overseer - Yes, we don't cleave well here, but this is why you bring a single necromancer and all your adds worries melt away, so I concede this point. This one I will concede that a "only mesmers" strategy clearly would have issues due to the nature of how deadly an ignored soldier can be, but again, this is why we have necros and a spot for them to shine. As far as boss dps here, Power mesmer works well if your tank doesnt keep MO as stationary as field-based damage builds like Tempest/Weaver would like. Its Mo though, the DPS dummy boss, so really any build can work here.

 

Deimos - The actual only boss I consider a straight up poor match for Power Mesmer and I don't use it here. The better your group's damage potential, the more up-and-down you are doing, and the more despawns happen. That said, I've had a successful composition where we sent the other DPS down and myself, the tank, and the oil kite just stayed up. By the time they came back up, Deimos was well close to his next phase to transition, and transitioned smoothly after we beat each shadow Saul. Still, not a great build for this boss, agreed.

 

 

 

This is my weekly clear experience running this build with a semi static. It holds its weight, and we complement it where needed for things like MO and Xera, and it in turn complements the other builds in areas they are less proficient (e.g. weaver / tempest having literally no additional break bar for Samarog/Sloth/Mathias, and no stability/condi cleanse/reflects).

 

Power Mesmer is best described as "High Reliable Damage to Boss, Medium Cleave and Clumping to support other's Cleave, High Utility and Flexibility."

 

It can reliably maintain boss damage through hard mechanics and has a slew of tools in its kit from just being a mesmer to aid its allies and enable their jobs to go easier, so its an indirect damage booster while still being a reliable boss damage dealer. Its really fun and you should totally give it a try before knocking it :)

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Swiftwynd.1685]

> @Kanto.1659 said:

> I was reading up to half way through and then gave up since it turned into bickering that didn't show signs of stopping. REAL damage is what matters, not theoretical. Yes, QT golem tests are a benchmark. But few reach it during a real encounter.

>

> I have a friend I played with in WoW. Despite the same spec, about the same gear, and hitting the same numbers when we were both side by side hitting a training dummy their numbers were consistently a full 30% lower than mine during the raids. APM, managing to keep rotations going while doing mechanics, managing to stay alive, an easy rotation that can be kept going are things that make the difference.

>

> No one ever uses training dummy numbers in WoW. No one happily shows their best while hitting a dummy (in fact, the concept would be met with amusement). Every time showing off comes in OR when a benchmark is called upon ONLY raid logs are used.

>

> I know GW2 has something like those raid log sites, so use it instead of QT benchmarks, sheesh. Obviously don't pull out the numbers of someone who had to do particular mechanics that are necessary to not wipe the raid which will break their damage.

 

A million times this.

 

I upload my logs to Raidar, a great sight to show actual averages and in-fight comparisons. This tells you what an actually, realistic, in-fight uptime on boons, effects, and damage is at various stages of the boss encounter.

 

My power Mesmer boss dps on KC is definitely in the top 10%, even comparing it to other "absolute best in slot" damage dealers like Tempest/Weaver... so there is simply just a lot of theory craft in this thread that is not born out by sheer evidence.

[musu.9205]

btw , qt meta pick for each boss are usually safest pick not just highest number for decent players (few exceptional ). they do consider things like burst , aoe and cc to a degree . beyond that , higher dps allow squads skip mechanic .

you can also consider that effective on qt site as good enough for okish or even bad players depends on difficulty .

so yeah , as a mesmer main , when people ask me if they should make a dps mesmer being power or condi for raid

what i usually answer is

if you already have a decent dps class like guard or ele , you do raid with guild ,your raid group doesn't need much more dps and utilities .

yeah , mesmer could be a relaxing experience for raid .kinda boring to me but fun for some too .

 

otherwise , not too recommended .

 

and honestly when you guys try to convince others that mesmer dps role is fine , do you even think about that after those people gear full viperor assassin which are not cheap for a beginner raider ,they only find it's a niche . that's totally fine for new raiders to be kicked in pug for their class ? because few raid guilds (including mine ) will accept dps mesmer .

 

what will happen for a new raider if he picks dps mesmer is he joins a pug or raid guild and gets asked to swap class or play chrono .he either does what the most ask for or he will never have a chance to reach those guilds .even those guilds accept dps mesmer , they still want proper dps . how would you feel when another 3 dps have to cover aoe or burst dmg for your dps mesmer ? personally i will feel bad and swap to another character .

 

again and agian people are not stupid . i'm pretty sure anyone with basic game knowledge after reading this thread , they will not pick dps mesmer as beginning raider .

they do not need the attitude from Swiftwynd.1685 or Feanor.2358 who automatically think beginner are so bad they have to play power mes to be effective .

in my raid guild , we will inform people what's the meta and why they are meta . and let them try different classes as long as we can get kill in a reasonable time , they will learn and improve . and dps mesmer is not a good pick for starter .

 

 

 

[Swiftwynd.1685]

> @Cyninja.2954 said:

> > @Feanor.2358 said:

> > > @Cyninja.2954 said:

> > > > @Feanor.2358 said:

> > > > You're cherry-picking your example. Sloth is one of the bosses where cleave is most valuable, so naturally a dps mesmer will be suboptimal there. Following the same logic I can say Weaver is a bad pick overall because it's not suited for Matthias. It is true that adds are a more common addition to the fights than the amount of movement Matthias does, but the point still stands. For most fights you can take a Mirage and pull your weight. Same as any other dps class, really. None of them is universally good.

> > >

> > > VG, Gore, Sloth, Trio, Escort, Xera, MO and Deimos are all fights which either have mechanics where you either have adds to cleave or mechanics which require a desummon of phantasms to be efficient (or straight up desummon them). That's not even counting fights such as Sabatha where Mesmer can't jump or KC where bursty classes spike hard. That's 8-10 fights where mesmer is disadvantaged. Please show me which other high tier dps has so many fights where it's fighting an uphill battle?

> > >

> > > In all those fights mentioned mesmer/mirage is reliant on other classes to pickup their slack, mostly in the department of area damage.

> >

> > Please show me other high-tier dps which doubles up as a mandatory support.

>

> What? Damage mesmer and mirage are in no way support. If they are, their damage is even further off from the benchmarks of other classes. Are we dealing with the "I have all trait lines and utilities availalbe at all time damage mesmer"?

>

> Fine, Firebrand brings more support than either of our dps specs and higher damage with easy rotation. (not to mention that DH is still viable with a ton of passive utility)

> Scourge brings a lot of support in form of barrier to the table (granted it needs to get some of its damage back which arenanet have already said they are working on after the recent change).

> Condi Renegade provides alacrity, ferocity and might at the cost of some dps if need be (staying above Mirage and far above power core mesmer).

> Soulbeast brings top tier dps and can bring along 1 spirit without any loss to it.

>

> Oh wait, you are arguing that chrono is so strong that Mirage and power core are fine being undertuned. Yeah I agree, but is "our support build is super strong so our damage build gets to be weak" not another way of saying: mesmer damage builds are subpar? What was that you mentioned about cherry-picking earlier?

>

 

At no damage loss, Power Mesmer can bring the following:

 

Focus Pull.

 

Signet of Midnight and Humility - huge break bar emergency back up (Focus pull and Sword 4 and Mantra of Distraction if additional break bar needed)

 

3 condition cleanse to subgroup x2

 

Stability to subgroup x2 and personal stunbreak

 

Feedback for reflect

 

Blink for mobility to quickly resume dealing damage (indirect personal damage buff often not taken into account by virtue of "getting to boss to resume damage faster")

 

Portal back up for emergencies on Escort

 

Boon Rip AOE if really needed (not big now, obviously, later on could be handy maybe but we now have multiple classes with this.)

 

Time Warp to provide additional quickness coverage for entire squad on fights with no breakbar.

 

 

You can ignore them if you like, but that is a lot of utility. Obviously with the advent of Firebrand they can also bring several things as well in the above list, but critically important, they take a huge DPS loss to utilize some of them:

 

Having to pull out F3 book for stability or Reflect

 

The range on their F1 skill 3 Pull is actually very small compared with the Focus Pull. it is a 240 radius pull inward, while our focus is almost tripple the size at 600.

 

Their quickness support is part of their rotation, but only for their subgroup. Granted, Timewarp without Chrono has horrible up time to recharge, but its helping the entire squad and we dont have anything better to use for Cairn/Mo

 

They can emergency heal and condition cleanse, BUT at an extremely large dps cost.

 

 

I'm still waiting to see a DPS role that can bring as much as I've listed above at, literally, no cost to their personal damage.

[Swiftwynd.1685]

> @musu.9205 said:

> >

 

We actually do recommend it for new players. Assassins / Berserkers / Scholar Runes / Force Sigil / Air Sigil.

 

All of that combined makes for a very cheap, accessible, easy to get into raid dps character. And its budget friendly and they can work it towards ascended if desired, or work towards building an expensive condition set for a more meta pick e.g. condi Soulbeast or something.

 

I have a player in my guild who is almost 60 years old, and she was initially trying out power DH for the past few months. She simply just cannot play that build no matter how hard she tries to get her numbers up better. Her first try on the golem with realistic raid buffs she pulled higher than she's ever pulled on Dragon Hunter, and the dragon hunter build "assumes" you will have permanent retaliation.

 

I've never seen, in all of my raiding experience, a chronomancer who will regularly keep retaliation up "100%" of the time. We're lucky on our logs to see it over 60%.

 

She loves her power mesmer and is actually able to contribute to fights better, and this is just with a few days of practice.

 

 

We don't discriminate in our discord and we try to match people to builds they actually will have a chance at clearing content with :)

 

That said, I also have a fairly skilled friend who is great at the game in general but is new to raiding. He took the same build on KC and beat out a decent Tempest player whom I've raided with for a while on his literal first ever use of the build. Its really just that pick-up friendly.

 

So we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one. My experiences clearly don't match with yours. Anyone reading this is welcome to come join us and have fun with it if you want some advice on how to power mesmer :D

 

[Cyninja.2954]

> @Swiftwynd.1685 said:

> > @Cyninja.2954 said:

> > VG, Gore, Sloth, Trio, Escort, Xera, MO and Deimos are all fights which either have mechanics where you either have adds to cleave or mechanics which require a desummon of phantasms to be efficient (or straight up desummon them). That's not even counting fights such as Sabatha where Mesmer can't jump or KC where bursty classes spike hard. That's 8-10 fights where mesmer is disadvantaged. Please show me which other high tier dps has so many fights where it's fighting an uphill battle?

> >

> > In all those fights mentioned mesmer/mirage is reliant on other classes to pickup their slack, mostly in the department of area damage.

>

> VG - Never desummons, ever, period, end of story. Split phase is the only "cleave-ish" needed part and frankly damage at that stage is literally all fluff. Mechanics of breaking / boon ripping and standing on greens are all that matter.

 

I'm not going to repeat things which were already stated in this thread a thousand times. If you aren't resummoning for splits, you are getting carried by the other dps.

 

> @Swiftwynd.1685 said:

>

> Sloth - Only desummons if you are a slubling eater, so at most once per fight for most runs. The additional Feedback + Focus Pull + Mantra of Resolve to cleanse conditions or signet of midnight + Signet of Humiliation ensures super snappy breaks, which otherwise significantly lower the raids effective damage and prolong the fight. Show me another dps role that can break as well as power mesmer while providing that utility at zero damage loss :) We also lose less having to drop off poison and dont have issues dealing with becoming the fixated target like some dps roles.

 

Since dps are usually the ones to eat, that is a significant disadvantage. The last 4 months of Sloth I've never had any mesmer take reflects. The extra cleanse is nice but is basically only redundant backup if you have druids and chronos. Again, great for inexperienced groups with some drawbacks.

 

> @Swiftwynd.1685 said:

>

> Escort - back up portal mesmer if your tower mesmer takes a dive when dropping down to portal if they get CCed. Clumps with focus pull. Clears mines instantly with Mantra of Pain. Just another role for this though nothing particularly good or bad, but really, its escort lol ... just pull in stuff and cc lock and cleave.

 

Chronos are already clumping (or should be) so redundant. Mines should be a non issue with all the area damage or elementalists or basically any damage dealer with a 600 range autoattack.

 

I didn't go into any of the other boss fights since they were either an obvious disadvantage to mesmer or the benefits you mentioned are redundant since they are already provided by the basic 2 druid, 2 chrono, 2 cPS comp.

 

Again, I'm not arguing that power mesmer (which is even futher off meta than even Mirage but w/e) or Mirage can't be taken along. I'm arguing that there is better choices.

 

 

[musu.9205]

can we ignore Swiftwynd.1685

 

we are just running cycle with him when he simply ignored our reasons but can't stop "showing off" his full clean (lol like that's something so special )or discord community or fetish over weaver/ tempest with all those made up "high utility , no downtime for burst , no catch up time "argument .

 

[Cyninja.2954]

> @Swiftwynd.1685 said:

> > @Cyninja.2954 said:

> > > @Feanor.2358 said:

> > > > @Cyninja.2954 said:

> > > > > @Feanor.2358 said:

> > > > > You're cherry-picking your example. Sloth is one of the bosses where cleave is most valuable, so naturally a dps mesmer will be suboptimal there. Following the same logic I can say Weaver is a bad pick overall because it's not suited for Matthias. It is true that adds are a more common addition to the fights than the amount of movement Matthias does, but the point still stands. For most fights you can take a Mirage and pull your weight. Same as any other dps class, really. None of them is universally good.

> > > >

> > > > VG, Gore, Sloth, Trio, Escort, Xera, MO and Deimos are all fights which either have mechanics where you either have adds to cleave or mechanics which require a desummon of phantasms to be efficient (or straight up desummon them). That's not even counting fights such as Sabatha where Mesmer can't jump or KC where bursty classes spike hard. That's 8-10 fights where mesmer is disadvantaged. Please show me which other high tier dps has so many fights where it's fighting an uphill battle?

> > > >

> > > > In all those fights mentioned mesmer/mirage is reliant on other classes to pickup their slack, mostly in the department of area damage.

> > >

> > > Please show me other high-tier dps which doubles up as a mandatory support.

> >

> > What? Damage mesmer and mirage are in no way support. If they are, their damage is even further off from the benchmarks of other classes. Are we dealing with the "I have all trait lines and utilities availalbe at all time damage mesmer"?

> >

> > Fine, Firebrand brings more support than either of our dps specs and higher damage with easy rotation. (not to mention that DH is still viable with a ton of passive utility)

> > Scourge brings a lot of support in form of barrier to the table (granted it needs to get some of its damage back which arenanet have already said they are working on after the recent change).

> > Condi Renegade provides alacrity, ferocity and might at the cost of some dps if need be (staying above Mirage and far above power core mesmer).

> > Soulbeast brings top tier dps and can bring along 1 spirit without any loss to it.

> >

> > Oh wait, you are arguing that chrono is so strong that Mirage and power core are fine being undertuned. Yeah I agree, but is "our support build is super strong so our damage build gets to be weak" not another way of saying: mesmer damage builds are subpar? What was that you mentioned about cherry-picking earlier?

> >

>

> At no damage loss, Power Mesmer can bring the following:

 

No damage loss as in not running Sigils which drops the damage of the build even below 30k from the quantify benchmark. I get it though, I'd exchange some 2k dps too for more utility and safety. Still it is a dps loss.

 

> @Swiftwynd.1685 said:

>

> Focus Pull.

 

You have 2 chronos. Fine, might be useful on KC if your druid is new.

 

> @Swiftwynd.1685 said:

>

> Signet of Midnight and Humility - huge break bar emergency back up (Focus pull and Sword 4 and Mantra of Distraction if additional break bar needed)

 

I'll give you breakbar simply because people often enough are asleep and having some extra break is useful in pugs and medium skill groups.

 

> @Swiftwynd.1685 said:

>

> 3 condition cleanse to subgroup x2

 

2 druids, 2 chronos, potentially guardian dps. Redundent.

 

> @Swiftwynd.1685 said:

>

> Stability to subgroup x2 and personal stunbreak

 

Not needed yet.

 

> @Swiftwynd.1685 said:

>

> Feedback for reflect

 

2 Chronos, how many backup reflects do you need on Matthias?

 

> @Swiftwynd.1685 said:

>

> Blink for mobility to quickly resume dealing damage (indirect personal damage buff often not taken into account by virtue of "getting to boss to resume damage faster")

 

Are we running the "all utilities available build"? You won't have blink on your bar, period.

 

> @Swiftwynd.1685 said:

>

> Portal back up for emergencies on Escort

 

Sure, if your chrono on towers is incapable to place 2 portals this might be useful. Then again, maybe have some better cleave bottom and people from tower wouldn't even have to come down.

 

> @Swiftwynd.1685 said:

>

> Boon Rip AOE if really needed (not big now, obviously, later on could be handy maybe but we now have multiple classes with this.)

 

True, not needed yet. There is better classes for this like necro or Spellbreaker (should boons ever become so important on enemys that they need constant clearing warranting to take one).

 

> @Swiftwynd.1685 said:

>

> Time Warp to provide additional quickness coverage for entire squad on fights with no breakbar.

 

Your Timewarp will either not overwrite your chronos quickness or provide marginal quickness. Yes, can be a benefit on some fights but honestly, we are entering redundent territory again.

 

> @Swiftwynd.1685 said:

> You can ignore them if you like, but that is a lot of utility. Obviously with the advent of Firebrand they can also bring several things as well in the above list, but critically important, they take a huge DPS loss to utilize some of them:

>

> Having to pull out F3 book for stability or Reflect

>

> The range on their F1 skill 3 Pull is actually very small compared with the Focus Pull. it is a 240 radius pull inward, while our focus is almost tripple the size at 600.

>

> Their quickness support is part of their rotation, but only for their subgroup. Granted, Timewarp without Chrono has horrible up time to recharge, but its helping the entire squad and we dont have anything better to use for Cairn/Mo

>

> They can emergency heal and condition cleanse, BUT at an extremely large dps cost.

>

>

> I'm still waiting to see a DPS role that can bring as much as I've listed above at, literally, no cost to their personal damage.

 

That's just it. Most dps roles bring 1 thing: dps as much as possible with now more and more bringing multiple things on top of that. Almost everything you mentioned is covered by the basic (hence hwy it's so strong) setup of 2 Druid, 2 chrono, 2 cPS. The biggest requirement for dps is damage and crowd control.

 

So I'll repeat myself for the gazillionth time. Mirage (which is more selfish than power core) brings okay damage but nothing stellar, power core mesmer is even further away from top tier dps builds and brings a lot of backup stuff. Great for those runs where this is needed, not meta for most else.

[musu.9205]

> @Swiftwynd.1685 said:

> > @musu.9205 said:

> > >

>

> We actually do recommend it for new players. Assassins / Berserkers / Scholar Runes / Force Sigil / Air Sigil.

>

> All of that combined makes for a very cheap, accessible, easy to get into raid dps character. And its budget friendly and they can work it towards ascended if desired, or work towards building an expensive condition set for a more meta pick e.g. condi Soulbeast or something.

>

> I have a player in my guild who is almost 60 years old, and she was initially trying out power DH for the past few months. She simply just cannot play that build no matter how hard she tries to get her numbers up better. Her first try on the golem with realistic raid buffs she pulled higher than she's ever pulled on Dragon Hunter, and the dragon hunter build "assumes" you will have permanent retaliation.

>

> I've never seen, in all of my raiding experience, a chronomancer who will regularly keep retaliation up "100%" of the time. We're lucky on our logs to see it over 60%.

>

> She loves her power mesmer and is actually able to contribute to fights better, and this is just with a few days of practice.

>

>

> We don't discriminate in our discord and we try to match people to builds they actually will have a chance at clearing content with :)

>

> That said, I also have a fairly skilled friend who is great at the game in general but is new to raiding. He took the same build on KC and beat out a decent Tempest player whom I've raided with for a while on his literal first ever use of the build. Its really just that pick-up friendly.

>

> So we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one. My experiences clearly don't match with yours. Anyone reading this is welcome to come join us and have fun with it if you want some advice on how to power mesmer :D

>

 

in a whole thread you are telling us how we should not follow qt number blablaba or meta blabla

but you literally copy paste a qt meta dh build and said it doesn' t work for one of your guild member while you kept saying how much you can change a power mes build to provide everything even tho those things are fairly questionable to be considered as useful .

 

one thing , she can play old dh build even ignore gs rotation just use scepter + sword and accurate sigil + force . its fairly easy . less dps yes . but since power mesmer lvl dps is fine for your guild .

for meta qt build ,she could run shout or field for retal uptime ,it doesn't need to be 100% uptime , just cast them before she put her big burst skill .she doesnt need test of faith . its not a big dps loss .

and how about condi thief , that's even easier

 

at this point , you are just trying hard to convince us .i mean if she can't handle dh rotation , that is fine . your guys can carry , that's also nice . we do that all the time for friends etc . but it is not a solid point to argue if power mesmer in general is fine .

 

have you noticed that you moved your argument from raid in general to weekly clear to training run to your 60 year old guild member .it's getting ridiculous , i mean even in your own guild i think there are not many 60 years old raiders .and you still use your own experience on number not the actual raid fight like adds clean to justify power mesmer > ele .

 

 

 

[Drekor.5217]

> @Kanto.1659 said:

> I was reading up to half way through and then gave up since it turned into bickering that didn't show signs of stopping. REAL damage is what matters, not theoretical. Yes, QT golem tests are a benchmark. But few reach it during a real encounter.

>

> I have a friend I played with in WoW. Despite the same spec, about the same gear, and hitting the same numbers when we were both side by side hitting a training dummy their numbers were consistently a full 30% lower than mine during the raids. APM, managing to keep rotations going while doing mechanics, managing to stay alive, an easy rotation that can be kept going are things that make the difference.

>

> No one ever uses training dummy numbers in WoW. No one happily shows their best while hitting a dummy (in fact, the concept would be met with amusement). Every time showing off comes in OR when a benchmark is called upon ONLY raid logs are used.

>

> I know GW2 has something like those raid log sites, so use it instead of QT benchmarks, sheesh. Obviously don't pull out the numbers of someone who had to do particular mechanics that are necessary to not wipe the raid which will break their damage.

 

WoW uses sims almost religiously which is arguably worse than golem.