dontlook.1823 Posted October 20, 2017 Author Share Posted October 20, 2017 > @Feanor.2358 said: > > @dontlook.1823 said: > > Just wondering if anyone remembers this... About three years ago Guardians we're receiving a lot of attention about their DPS. After some time a new patch came out giving the eight professions at the time a new heal. Also, the Guardian was given a substantial DPS buff along with the promise of future buffs to it's DPS. > > > > Along came Heart of Thorns with the new Dragon Hunter specialization and Guardians received a proper righteous redress to their grievance. > > > > I've been playing Guild Wars 2 since launch PVX (PvE, PvP, and WvW) so I have a pretty good handle over most content I encounter. I must say that lately I have been lacking in PvP. Though I can say I have been shacking it up in PVE. > > > > My daily experience is rather hostile at the moment. By that I mean, each day I'm faced with messages in LFG exclaiming team composition standards otherwise known as "Meta." At first, it was very easy to dismiss these messages and start my own group; however, lately I find myself very tired. Tired of hearing things such that, "are you running Chrono," "is Chrono not good anymore?" "Is that a power Mesmer!?" It's no news to anyone that DPS in this game has a large gap for Mesmer as they place 10th and lower on their benchmarks. > > > > Earlier this year it was rumored that each class was going to be giving the opportunity to reach a 30k DPS benchmark. This is not bad but not necessarily good either. While Elementalist and Guardians vie for the top spot in DPS for 40-50k. I'm stuck cheering them on with my mere 30kDPS. > > > > The problem is, I want every profession to have that chance to say, "Yeah I'm top DPS." Not just a hand full of professions that should carry the rest of their teams DPS. What we have here is a snow-ball going down one slippery slope. Not only that, it really only contributes to an already prevalent issue within Guild Wars 2. For example, the Necromancer was savagely booted from raids for more than half of the time Heart of Thorns was live. Problems such as these cannot continue to go unaddressed for as long as they have been. > > > > Each profession has something to bring to the table, something unique to offer the group. It should by no means, mean players use prescribed builds for some sort of reaching perfection that very swiftly knocks other professions out as sub-optimal. There has to be some detrimental loss for losing out on a whole profession. Whether it means buffing those barriors, increasing the damage confusion deals much like the reverent's torment, there just has to be more of a, "ahh just couldn't get one of those in my party, maybe next time." Instead of this callous exclusivity. > > > > I firmly stand my ground when I say game play like that is all around toxic. I am a firm believer that people should play what they know and like as long as your doing something ( doing dps, grabbing aggro, clearing mechanics, so on and so forth.) I genuinely think the quality of life for Guild Wars 2 players will increase once these DPS matters get under control. One last thought, condition damage should not out weigh that of power damage; it should simply be a choice, a play-style kind of thing. > > > > Ulitimatly, Guild Wars 2 is a MMO **RPG** get into character have fun with what your doing and above all be effective. Cause last time I checked I don't use meters to tell me I'm 2nd in behind so and so nor do I ever wish to do so. I would just like potential builds out there bring what they are capable of. Instead of being boxed in a certain role. I.e. each profession should have the ability to do just as the other profession can do just with a little bit different flavor. > > > > Hit my inbox up for all the latest DPS benchmarks and builds. I'll send a link. Hopefully we can get somewhere from here > > > > With regards, > > > > Egrek > > > > You might want to try actually playing different classes before talking about DPS in general. You're looking at the golem benchmarks and you're drawing conclusions based on that. It doesn't tell you the whole story. True, a Weaver will always out-DPS a mesmer on KC with a large margin. However, a Mirage will out-DPS a Weaver on Matthias with a large margin. I would go as far as to say that currently every class has at least a valid niche when it comes to damage-dealing. True, some of these "niches" are wider and more generally applicable. One of the drawbacks of the mesmer has always been the lack of cleave. Mirage actually does something in that regard. Sure, it still is not as good as other damage dealers when we're talking about doing content in general. But then again, you don't need to - and you won't be able to - hit golem numbers in that. All I'm saying is that I want to play DPS Mesmer a lot more confidently. As of now it gets a little bit too much grief. Also, I've played plenty of other classes. I've been playing the game since it came out. And niche in one encounter is not good at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zenith.7301 Posted October 20, 2017 Share Posted October 20, 2017 > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said: > > @dontlook.1823 said: > > Its not a matter of people being tolerant of others playing how they want, you know. > > It's a matter of professions like Mesmer not being able to compete for top DPS. Although their current DPS is decent it is still sub-optimal. I brought up Guards in my OP because a few short years ago they were experiencing similar issues with their damage potential. Now they are pretty much at the top of the charts with pDPS and cDPS builds. I just want to make that clear. It's not that hard to find a group of friends or people you've been gaming with to tolerate ones' play-style . But DPS potential is up to the developers and that's it. > > > > What's more is the balance team has done many PvE/PvP split changes. So to tie those two so closely together is far off from what I'm getting at here. > > To be "optimal" is a fairly exclusive club in which 5 spots are reserved. By default, 4 classes will be excluded, and countless other builds and specializations on all of the classes. Even if you normalize every class to do 34k DPS, classes will still be excluded because their utilities aren't going to be as widely applicable. This fact isn't going to change. Yes, we can pump mirage DPS to 40k, but this just bumps another class off of the optimal list. > > The most any developer can guarantee is for a class to be viable. If you're saying that you want to bump off another class and take its spot, then join the club. So do most classes. > > > @Zenith.7301 said: > > > > That may be the scenario for single bosses in raids. > > > > In fractals and cleave raid fights, mesmer is complete trash and your group is carrying you hard through trash, which is virtually the vast majority of the fractal outside 99/100/mai trin/molten duo. > > > > The ramp up and terrible target switching hindering the class is real, and while you point at passable DPS, that DPS is basically that of a PS condi warrior with none of the utility. > > Wow, I didn't know that PS condi warrior did 34k. I thought it did 29k. > > Anyway, you change up your rotation when fighting smaller mobs. You don't just summon phantasms against a single vet. You prioritize shatters and cleaves. Whenever I encounter regular mobs, I usually go for precast torch 4 -> double axe 2 while repositioning with jaunt -> cloak and ambush while using Cry of Frustration and swapping weapons at the same time. From there I mostly wing it, since after doing all of that most small mob groups are dead. Even if you aren't running the clone build or the shatter build, this still works well enough to cleave down anything less than an elite. Please do show us the DPS meter screens of your "rotation change". You pretty much sidestepped the question. Your axe 2 and shatters won't even touch half of what the other DPS specs are doing on trash. You are being **carried**. And don't dare pull up a 34k mirage on fractals against a PS warrior lower benchmark. Your 34k is assuming use of jaunt and the mirror utility. In which case you don't bring moa signet for breakbars nor signet of inspiration or feedback for reflects, being even worse utility. You're again comparing raid builds to fractal builds. The PS warrior build is of universal benefit since it still brings utility for CC while the mirage won't even touch that 34k DPS on anything but a long lived boss (as opposed to the frontloaded burning damage of zerkers and firebrands and soulbeasts in a fractal). You bring up engineer as not having anything special with a similar 34k. You actually mean a frontloaded 34k that's actually realistic and useful for aoe/cleave and shorter lived fractal bosses, on top of the massive CC holo brings. The massive CC of a mirage meanwhile is locked behind an elite on a whopping 180 sec cd. You say I'm being difficult. I say you're being dishonest in how mirage actually performs in most content that isn't a long lived single target fight with zero target switches. Mirage much like any mesmer spec that is not chronomancer is an absolutely niche spec. Not just mediocre. Niche. If you're not fighting a long lived single target that lasts long enough to overcome your ramp up and forces no target switches, the spec performs on average. AVERAGE. If those conditions are not met, the spec drops to the bottom of the barrel. I main revenenat as well. The core mechanics are bad. But Kalla is amazing. You have superb realistic DPS with comparatively little ramp up and a ton more cleave than mirage, you provide a passive 12 stacks of might through your rotation with mace 2>3, you provide Assassin's Presence, and Kalla can actually bring utility through a spirit for CC or provide group recovery help through soulcleave at the cost of some DPS if needed. Mirage has none of that flexibility, lower DPS, longer ramp up, and zero of that cleave or utility. Of the specs that you mentioned, only reaper and scrapper fall in a a crappy scenario. And last time I went to complain on the engineer forums about Scrapper's output and the hammer, people like you told me to be happy because hammer is meant to be a solo might stacking weapon for open world PvE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swiftwynd.1685 Posted October 20, 2017 Share Posted October 20, 2017 > @dontlook.1823 said: > > @Feanor.2358 said: > > > @dontlook.1823 said: > > > Just wondering if anyone remembers this... About three years ago Guardians we're receiving a lot of attention about their DPS. After some time a new patch came out giving the eight professions at the time a new heal. Also, the Guardian was given a substantial DPS buff along with the promise of future buffs to it's DPS. > > > > > > Along came Heart of Thorns with the new Dragon Hunter specialization and Guardians received a proper righteous redress to their grievance. > > > > > > I've been playing Guild Wars 2 since launch PVX (PvE, PvP, and WvW) so I have a pretty good handle over most content I encounter. I must say that lately I have been lacking in PvP. Though I can say I have been shacking it up in PVE. > > > > > > My daily experience is rather hostile at the moment. By that I mean, each day I'm faced with messages in LFG exclaiming team composition standards otherwise known as "Meta." At first, it was very easy to dismiss these messages and start my own group; however, lately I find myself very tired. Tired of hearing things such that, "are you running Chrono," "is Chrono not good anymore?" "Is that a power Mesmer!?" It's no news to anyone that DPS in this game has a large gap for Mesmer as they place 10th and lower on their benchmarks. > > > > > > Earlier this year it was rumored that each class was going to be giving the opportunity to reach a 30k DPS benchmark. This is not bad but not necessarily good either. While Elementalist and Guardians vie for the top spot in DPS for 40-50k. I'm stuck cheering them on with my mere 30kDPS. > > > > > > The problem is, I want every profession to have that chance to say, "Yeah I'm top DPS." Not just a hand full of professions that should carry the rest of their teams DPS. What we have here is a snow-ball going down one slippery slope. Not only that, it really only contributes to an already prevalent issue within Guild Wars 2. For example, the Necromancer was savagely booted from raids for more than half of the time Heart of Thorns was live. Problems such as these cannot continue to go unaddressed for as long as they have been. > > > > > > Each profession has something to bring to the table, something unique to offer the group. It should by no means, mean players use prescribed builds for some sort of reaching perfection that very swiftly knocks other professions out as sub-optimal. There has to be some detrimental loss for losing out on a whole profession. Whether it means buffing those barriors, increasing the damage confusion deals much like the reverent's torment, there just has to be more of a, "ahh just couldn't get one of those in my party, maybe next time." Instead of this callous exclusivity. > > > > > > I firmly stand my ground when I say game play like that is all around toxic. I am a firm believer that people should play what they know and like as long as your doing something ( doing dps, grabbing aggro, clearing mechanics, so on and so forth.) I genuinely think the quality of life for Guild Wars 2 players will increase once these DPS matters get under control. One last thought, condition damage should not out weigh that of power damage; it should simply be a choice, a play-style kind of thing. > > > > > > Ulitimatly, Guild Wars 2 is a MMO **RPG** get into character have fun with what your doing and above all be effective. Cause last time I checked I don't use meters to tell me I'm 2nd in behind so and so nor do I ever wish to do so. I would just like potential builds out there bring what they are capable of. Instead of being boxed in a certain role. I.e. each profession should have the ability to do just as the other profession can do just with a little bit different flavor. > > > > > > Hit my inbox up for all the latest DPS benchmarks and builds. I'll send a link. Hopefully we can get somewhere from here > > > > > > With regards, > > > > > > Egrek > > > > > > > You might want to try actually playing different classes before talking about DPS in general. You're looking at the golem benchmarks and you're drawing conclusions based on that. It doesn't tell you the whole story. True, a Weaver will always out-DPS a mesmer on KC with a large margin. However, a Mirage will out-DPS a Weaver on Matthias with a large margin. I would go as far as to say that currently every class has at least a valid niche when it comes to damage-dealing. True, some of these "niches" are wider and more generally applicable. One of the drawbacks of the mesmer has always been the lack of cleave. Mirage actually does something in that regard. Sure, it still is not as good as other damage dealers when we're talking about doing content in general. But then again, you don't need to - and you won't be able to - hit golem numbers in that. > > All I'm saying is that I want to play DPS Mesmer a lot more confidently. As of now it gets a little bit too much grief. Also, I've played plenty of other classes. I've been playing the game since it came out. And niche in one encounter is not good at all. You are welcome to join us for the raiding aspect. I dont do fractals so i cannot advise on its viability there. I can say that power mesmer in our community is considered a wonderful pick for every boss except for deimos, and is our preferred pics for at least two bosses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent Noun.7350 Posted October 20, 2017 Share Posted October 20, 2017 > @OriOri.8724 said: > Mesmer has DPS builds, but our mechanic is still awful in that we have to ignore our F-Skills entirely to maintain anything close to reasonable DPS, much less optimal DPS. That's the problem. No matter what DPS builds we get, if we have to ignore our F-skills for the duration of the fight then the class as a whole needs some re-working to do This is the real answer. Mesmer absolutely has DPS builds. They're not ever going to reach the blisteringly high DPS that some professions can (under ideal circumstances), and they have serious limitations (we can't shatter, our cleave is hilarious compared to a lot of other DPS builds that also do higher single-target damage), but they exist. I said this in another thread, but if anyone's wondering, "Well, when is ArenaNet going to keep tuning Mesmer up so that we can have meta speed clear DPS too?", the answer is almost certainly "never," and the reason is what OriOri said: our core mechanics are always going to stand in the way. We're heavily discouraged from using our F1-4 skills in a PvE fight (and through Chronomancers clearly get a lot of use out of the F5, they're not exactly a DPS spec), which is a shame, because two of those skills have the potential to be respectable sources of cleave damage. We have a ramp-up time even on a power build, and a double ramp-up on a condi build. We're just too reliant on phantasms in general for sustained DPS. Frankly, playing Mesmer in a PvE boss fight and playing Mesmer in the open world, PvP, or WvW are like playing two completely different professions, even if you're using the exact same trait lines and weapons. That's weird, and not in a particularly interesting or fun way. But, well, it's been five years of this same design, so I don't exactly have much hope that our reliance on phantasms is going away ever, and that means we're probably _always_ going to fall short of speed clear meta DPS numbers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blood Red Arachnid.2493 Posted October 20, 2017 Share Posted October 20, 2017 > @Zenith.7301 said: > You say I'm being difficult. I say you're being dishonest in how mirage actually performs in most content that isn't a long lived single target fight with zero target switches. You are being difficult. When I make a bigger post about community behavior and expectations, viability vs. optimization, the difficulties of having incomparable mechanics tied to different classes, you take that and make it an opportunity to whine about minute mechanical issues. (1) You make assertions with no evidence and demand people prove you wrong. (2) You arbitrarily assume a rigid build structure to attribute weaknesses, while ignoring it's strengths. (3) You bring up only the strengths of other classes and ignore their weaknesses. This with (2) proves that you're not actually thinking critically about what you're saying. (4) Dogmatically adhere to points that are flat out wrong (I.E. the "no target switches" issue) (5) Your posts are aimless and consist of little more than a collection of nits that you'd like to pick. Any issue of contention quickly devolves into a hundred minor complaints drawing from every obscure corner of the game in the hopes that if you can obscure the point enough, you'll win. (6)Every one of these nits, real or imaginary, all ignore any grander ideas that other people present to you. (7) There is nothing constructive in your posts, making them all an utter waste of time. When I exchange words with dontlook or Cyninja, I actually get somewhere. It's like I'm writing to a real person who considers my thoughts and responds in kind with thoughts to be considered. Not you, though. You're like a chat bot who's been programmed to be stubborn with an encyclopedia of GW2 trivia. The only use in talking to you is to demonstrate that you aren't worth talking to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blood Red Arachnid.2493 Posted October 20, 2017 Share Posted October 20, 2017 > @dontlook.1823 said: > This got a little bit too wrapped up in raiding. There is a tab for that in the forums. I also mentioned hostility in my OP and this is quickly becoming nothing less than that. > > In any case, the fact that guards got a pretty decent DPS buff is mainly what I'm trying to get across here. The first round was very similar to what they recently did to Mesmers. I'd like to see what else they might have in store. > > @dontlook.1823 said: > > All I'm saying is that I want to play DPS Mesmer a lot more confidently. As of now it gets a little bit too much grief. Also, I've played plenty of other classes. I've been playing the game since it came out. And niche in one encounter is not good at all. I'm putting these two together because they have similar ideas. While the Firebrand is currently melting face everywhere in the game, in all likelihood it is going to be receiving some big nerfs in the upcoming balance patch (Along with Soulbeast, Renegade, and Weaver). 34k looks like it is going to be the pivot point for balance in the future. This presents an issue: since condi mirage sits right at that point, you need to buff mirage in ways that don't increase its peak DPS. There's already several ideas to do this. Personally, I want Infinite Horizons to be baseline (buffs clones, not phantasms), and I would like it if all clone generation skills didn't override phantasms (increase general usability for most weapons). I would also like better traits options, so we aren't stuck with 3/3/3 by default in PVE, but I don't have the first clue on how to do that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apharma.3741 Posted October 20, 2017 Share Posted October 20, 2017 > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said: > > @dontlook.1823 said: > > This got a little bit too wrapped up in raiding. There is a tab for that in the forums. I also mentioned hostility in my OP and this is quickly becoming nothing less than that. > > > > In any case, the fact that guards got a pretty decent DPS buff is mainly what I'm trying to get across here. The first round was very similar to what they recently did to Mesmers. I'd like to see what else they might have in store. > > > > > @dontlook.1823 said: > > > > All I'm saying is that I want to play DPS Mesmer a lot more confidently. As of now it gets a little bit too much grief. Also, I've played plenty of other classes. I've been playing the game since it came out. And niche in one encounter is not good at all. > > I'm putting these two together because they have similar ideas. While the Firebrand is currently melting face everywhere in the game, in all likelihood it is going to be receiving some big nerfs in the upcoming balance patch (Along with Soulbeast, Renegade, and Weaver). 34k looks like it is going to be the pivot point for balance in the future. This presents an issue: since condi mirage sits right at that point, you need to buff mirage in ways that don't increase its peak DPS. > > There's already several ideas to do this. Personally, I want Infinite Horizons to be baseline (buffs clones, not phantasms), and I would like it if all clone generation skills didn't override phantasms (increase general usability for most weapons). I would also like better traits options, so we aren't stuck with 3/3/3 by default in PVE, but I don't have the first clue on how to do that. The best way to go around all this is to remove phantasms from the game and replace those skills with damage skills that generate a clone so you only have clone generating skills and then shatters that use those clones. This can then open up shatters to be used as part of a dps rotation while doing some slight buffing to mesmer sustained damage (weapon skills) across all weapon sets fixing many issues across the game without creating horrible inconsistencies like currently exist with blurred frenzy and mental anguish. For those that don’t know, these two do double damage in PvE, which includes guild halls, seen blurred frenzy take off 2k per hit and it can hit 8 times, these kinds of inconsistencies are extremely bad for the game. In general though mesmer has one of the best structures for PvE dps though in that they have to use 3 specific trait lines to get those damage boosts, while I do not like the traits themselves as they are phantasm buffing, the fact that the major damage traits are across 3 trait lines is how many classes should work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feanor.2358 Posted October 20, 2017 Share Posted October 20, 2017 > @dontlook.1823 said: > > @Feanor.2358 said: > > > @dontlook.1823 said: > > > Just wondering if anyone remembers this... About three years ago Guardians we're receiving a lot of attention about their DPS. After some time a new patch came out giving the eight professions at the time a new heal. Also, the Guardian was given a substantial DPS buff along with the promise of future buffs to it's DPS. > > > > > > Along came Heart of Thorns with the new Dragon Hunter specialization and Guardians received a proper righteous redress to their grievance. > > > > > > I've been playing Guild Wars 2 since launch PVX (PvE, PvP, and WvW) so I have a pretty good handle over most content I encounter. I must say that lately I have been lacking in PvP. Though I can say I have been shacking it up in PVE. > > > > > > My daily experience is rather hostile at the moment. By that I mean, each day I'm faced with messages in LFG exclaiming team composition standards otherwise known as "Meta." At first, it was very easy to dismiss these messages and start my own group; however, lately I find myself very tired. Tired of hearing things such that, "are you running Chrono," "is Chrono not good anymore?" "Is that a power Mesmer!?" It's no news to anyone that DPS in this game has a large gap for Mesmer as they place 10th and lower on their benchmarks. > > > > > > Earlier this year it was rumored that each class was going to be giving the opportunity to reach a 30k DPS benchmark. This is not bad but not necessarily good either. While Elementalist and Guardians vie for the top spot in DPS for 40-50k. I'm stuck cheering them on with my mere 30kDPS. > > > > > > The problem is, I want every profession to have that chance to say, "Yeah I'm top DPS." Not just a hand full of professions that should carry the rest of their teams DPS. What we have here is a snow-ball going down one slippery slope. Not only that, it really only contributes to an already prevalent issue within Guild Wars 2. For example, the Necromancer was savagely booted from raids for more than half of the time Heart of Thorns was live. Problems such as these cannot continue to go unaddressed for as long as they have been. > > > > > > Each profession has something to bring to the table, something unique to offer the group. It should by no means, mean players use prescribed builds for some sort of reaching perfection that very swiftly knocks other professions out as sub-optimal. There has to be some detrimental loss for losing out on a whole profession. Whether it means buffing those barriors, increasing the damage confusion deals much like the reverent's torment, there just has to be more of a, "ahh just couldn't get one of those in my party, maybe next time." Instead of this callous exclusivity. > > > > > > I firmly stand my ground when I say game play like that is all around toxic. I am a firm believer that people should play what they know and like as long as your doing something ( doing dps, grabbing aggro, clearing mechanics, so on and so forth.) I genuinely think the quality of life for Guild Wars 2 players will increase once these DPS matters get under control. One last thought, condition damage should not out weigh that of power damage; it should simply be a choice, a play-style kind of thing. > > > > > > Ulitimatly, Guild Wars 2 is a MMO **RPG** get into character have fun with what your doing and above all be effective. Cause last time I checked I don't use meters to tell me I'm 2nd in behind so and so nor do I ever wish to do so. I would just like potential builds out there bring what they are capable of. Instead of being boxed in a certain role. I.e. each profession should have the ability to do just as the other profession can do just with a little bit different flavor. > > > > > > Hit my inbox up for all the latest DPS benchmarks and builds. I'll send a link. Hopefully we can get somewhere from here > > > > > > With regards, > > > > > > Egrek > > > > > > > You might want to try actually playing different classes before talking about DPS in general. You're looking at the golem benchmarks and you're drawing conclusions based on that. It doesn't tell you the whole story. True, a Weaver will always out-DPS a mesmer on KC with a large margin. However, a Mirage will out-DPS a Weaver on Matthias with a large margin. I would go as far as to say that currently every class has at least a valid niche when it comes to damage-dealing. True, some of these "niches" are wider and more generally applicable. One of the drawbacks of the mesmer has always been the lack of cleave. Mirage actually does something in that regard. Sure, it still is not as good as other damage dealers when we're talking about doing content in general. But then again, you don't need to - and you won't be able to - hit golem numbers in that. > > All I'm saying is that I want to play DPS Mesmer a lot more confidently. As of now it gets a little bit too much grief. Also, I've played plenty of other classes. I've been playing the game since it came out. And niche in one encounter is not good at all. True that. Just pointing out the facts. Mirage is actually not a bad dps class and if you enjoy it, and can play it - not that it is actually hard - there is no real reason why you shouldn't be able to. But I guess I'm expecting too much of the community. That "best on golem = best everywhere" thinking is the plague of this game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zenith.7301 Posted October 20, 2017 Share Posted October 20, 2017 > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said: > > @Zenith.7301 said: > > You say I'm being difficult. I say you're being dishonest in how mirage actually performs in most content that isn't a long lived single target fight with zero target switches. > > You are being difficult. When I make a bigger post about community behavior and expectations, viability vs. optimization, the difficulties of having incomparable mechanics tied to different classes, you take that and make it an opportunity to whine about minute mechanical issues. > (1) You make assertions with no evidence and demand people prove you wrong. > (2) You arbitrarily assume a rigid build structure to attribute weaknesses, while ignoring it's strengths. > (3) You bring up only the strengths of other classes and ignore their weaknesses. This with (2) proves that you're not actually thinking critically about what you're saying. > (4) Dogmatically adhere to points that are flat out wrong (I.E. the "no target switches" issue) > (5) Your posts are aimless and consist of little more than a collection of nits that you'd like to pick. Any issue of contention quickly devolves into a hundred minor complaints drawing from every obscure corner of the game in the hopes that if you can obscure the point enough, you'll win. > (6)Every one of these nits, real or imaginary, all ignore any grander ideas that other people present to you. > (7) There is nothing constructive in your posts, making them all an utter waste of time. > > When I exchange words with dontlook or Cyninja, I actually get somewhere. It's like I'm writing to a real person who considers my thoughts and responds in kind with thoughts to be considered. Not you, though. You're like a chat bot who's been programmed to be stubborn with an encyclopedia of GW2 trivia. The only use in talking to you is to demonstrate that you aren't worth talking to. The waste of time in this thread are your platitudes and distinct lack of examples while instead of addressing any claim, you redirect with a whine about how arguments are made. You complain about making assertions without evidence when the burden was on you to prove what everybody else is missing about the DPS spec when you come into the thread and state mirage is a viable DPS spec. You are even as precious as to pull up benchmark numbers from qT, the same site that says condition mirage is inferior to other condi builds and was not enough to make mesmer competitive. You don't offer grand ideas. You're just a self-important contrarian who goes to make inane statements like saying renegade offers no support. And then when people point out how anything you say is wrong, you go and dismiss them with attacks to character. or call it nitpicking. Details fucking matter, so I will nitpick whatever erroneous crap you spout to move the goalposts. I don't want to get anywhere with you, if that means acceding to your deluded notions of class balance. Like keeping scrapper hammer auto weak because it can stack might in solo scenarios. My exchange with you is not to have some pleasant exchange for you. It's so others can see the stench of your claims. > @Feanor.2358 said: > > @dontlook.1823 said: > > > @Feanor.2358 said: > > > > @dontlook.1823 said: > > > > Just wondering if anyone remembers this... About three years ago Guardians we're receiving a lot of attention about their DPS. After some time a new patch came out giving the eight professions at the time a new heal. Also, the Guardian was given a substantial DPS buff along with the promise of future buffs to it's DPS. > > > > > > > > Along came Heart of Thorns with the new Dragon Hunter specialization and Guardians received a proper righteous redress to their grievance. > > > > > > > > I've been playing Guild Wars 2 since launch PVX (PvE, PvP, and WvW) so I have a pretty good handle over most content I encounter. I must say that lately I have been lacking in PvP. Though I can say I have been shacking it up in PVE. > > > > > > > > My daily experience is rather hostile at the moment. By that I mean, each day I'm faced with messages in LFG exclaiming team composition standards otherwise known as "Meta." At first, it was very easy to dismiss these messages and start my own group; however, lately I find myself very tired. Tired of hearing things such that, "are you running Chrono," "is Chrono not good anymore?" "Is that a power Mesmer!?" It's no news to anyone that DPS in this game has a large gap for Mesmer as they place 10th and lower on their benchmarks. > > > > > > > > Earlier this year it was rumored that each class was going to be giving the opportunity to reach a 30k DPS benchmark. This is not bad but not necessarily good either. While Elementalist and Guardians vie for the top spot in DPS for 40-50k. I'm stuck cheering them on with my mere 30kDPS. > > > > > > > > The problem is, I want every profession to have that chance to say, "Yeah I'm top DPS." Not just a hand full of professions that should carry the rest of their teams DPS. What we have here is a snow-ball going down one slippery slope. Not only that, it really only contributes to an already prevalent issue within Guild Wars 2. For example, the Necromancer was savagely booted from raids for more than half of the time Heart of Thorns was live. Problems such as these cannot continue to go unaddressed for as long as they have been. > > > > > > > > Each profession has something to bring to the table, something unique to offer the group. It should by no means, mean players use prescribed builds for some sort of reaching perfection that very swiftly knocks other professions out as sub-optimal. There has to be some detrimental loss for losing out on a whole profession. Whether it means buffing those barriors, increasing the damage confusion deals much like the reverent's torment, there just has to be more of a, "ahh just couldn't get one of those in my party, maybe next time." Instead of this callous exclusivity. > > > > > > > > I firmly stand my ground when I say game play like that is all around toxic. I am a firm believer that people should play what they know and like as long as your doing something ( doing dps, grabbing aggro, clearing mechanics, so on and so forth.) I genuinely think the quality of life for Guild Wars 2 players will increase once these DPS matters get under control. One last thought, condition damage should not out weigh that of power damage; it should simply be a choice, a play-style kind of thing. > > > > > > > > Ulitimatly, Guild Wars 2 is a MMO **RPG** get into character have fun with what your doing and above all be effective. Cause last time I checked I don't use meters to tell me I'm 2nd in behind so and so nor do I ever wish to do so. I would just like potential builds out there bring what they are capable of. Instead of being boxed in a certain role. I.e. each profession should have the ability to do just as the other profession can do just with a little bit different flavor. > > > > > > > > Hit my inbox up for all the latest DPS benchmarks and builds. I'll send a link. Hopefully we can get somewhere from here > > > > > > > > With regards, > > > > > > > > Egrek > > > > > > > > > > You might want to try actually playing different classes before talking about DPS in general. You're looking at the golem benchmarks and you're drawing conclusions based on that. It doesn't tell you the whole story. True, a Weaver will always out-DPS a mesmer on KC with a large margin. However, a Mirage will out-DPS a Weaver on Matthias with a large margin. I would go as far as to say that currently every class has at least a valid niche when it comes to damage-dealing. True, some of these "niches" are wider and more generally applicable. One of the drawbacks of the mesmer has always been the lack of cleave. Mirage actually does something in that regard. Sure, it still is not as good as other damage dealers when we're talking about doing content in general. But then again, you don't need to - and you won't be able to - hit golem numbers in that. > > > > All I'm saying is that I want to play DPS Mesmer a lot more confidently. As of now it gets a little bit too much grief. Also, I've played plenty of other classes. I've been playing the game since it came out. And niche in one encounter is not good at all. > > True that. Just pointing out the facts. Mirage is actually not a bad dps class and if you enjoy it, and can play it - not that it is actually hard - there is no real reason why you shouldn't be able to. But I guess I'm expecting too much of the community. That "best on golem = best everywhere" thinking is the plague of this game. The funny part about this post is that mirage actually does better in the golem than in many actual areas of the game from a DPS standpoint. Golems don't measure aoe or cleave. Golems don't measure short term burst or priority target switching like burning an anomaly in 100cm or 99 cm adds (if you axe 3 to target switch, the add dies and your phantasms die and you are back to ramping up on the boss). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FaboBabo.3581 Posted October 20, 2017 Share Posted October 20, 2017 can anone test following related to the condi Mirage Dps benchmark. -> When havin 3 ipstols out, and pistol 4 is ready again, wait until all 3 phants attacked, then double cast axe 2, replacing one phant twice(?), and then instantly replace the clone for pistol 4 phant again. If all 3 phants attacked we wont have a loss if we time the double axe cast well, adn replace the phantasm, so he is the first one in the phant attack-cycle, is my theory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knox.8962 Posted October 20, 2017 Share Posted October 20, 2017 > @FaboBabo.3581 said: > can anone test following related to the condi Mirage Dps benchmark. > -> When havin 3 ipstols out, and pistol 4 is ready again, wait until all 3 phants attacked, then double cast axe 2, replacing one phant twice(?), and then instantly replace the clone for pistol 4 phant again. > > If all 3 phants attacked we wont have a loss if we time the double axe cast well, adn replace the phantasm, so he is the first one in the phant attack-cycle, is my theory. In testing this a week or two ago, what we saw was that the DPS was pretty close to neutral without a field down. If you have somebody spamming damaging fields, the DPS of the option where you use axe 2 increases over just letting the phantasms stay alive. Also worth noting: In general, an axe clone in full raid buffs is about a 700 DPS loss compared to a traited pistol phantasm. So 3 axe clones spamming AA are about 2k DPS below 3 pistol phantasms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dontlook.1823 Posted October 20, 2017 Author Share Posted October 20, 2017 > @"Agent Noun.7350" said: > > @OriOri.8724 said: > > Mesmer has DPS builds, but our mechanic is still awful in that we have to ignore our F-Skills entirely to maintain anything close to reasonable DPS, much less optimal DPS. That's the problem. No matter what DPS builds we get, if we have to ignore our F-skills for the duration of the fight then the class as a whole needs some re-working to do > > This is the real answer. > > Mesmer absolutely has DPS builds. They're not ever going to reach the blisteringly high DPS that some professions can (under ideal circumstances), and they have serious limitations (we can't shatter, our cleave is hilarious compared to a lot of other DPS builds that also do higher single-target damage), but they exist. > > I said this in another thread, but if anyone's wondering, "Well, when is ArenaNet going to keep tuning Mesmer up so that we can have meta speed clear DPS too?", the answer is almost certainly "never," and the reason is what OriOri said: our core mechanics are always going to stand in the way. We're heavily discouraged from using our F1-4 skills in a PvE fight (and through Chronomancers clearly get a lot of use out of the F5, they're not exactly a DPS spec), which is a shame, because two of those skills have the potential to be respectable sources of cleave damage. We have a ramp-up time even on a power build, and a double ramp-up on a condi build. We're just too reliant on phantasms in general for sustained DPS. > > Frankly, playing Mesmer in a PvE boss fight and playing Mesmer in the open world, PvP, or WvW are like playing two completely different professions, even if you're using the exact same trait lines and weapons. That's weird, and not in a particularly interesting or fun way. But, well, it's been five years of this same design, so I don't exactly have much hope that our reliance on phantasms is going away ever, and that means we're probably _always_ going to fall short of speed clear meta DPS numbers. I don't think they are going to stop making changes. Guards would be in a similar spot as Mesmer had it not been for them focusing under a singular goal. Which was their DPS was low. There was really no way of getting around it. Over time Anet made changes and now they are one of the most optimal DPS specs you can bring along to a raid. Also, to note, I'm pretty sure there a lot more Guardians than there are Mesmers. Anet used to release data about the number of professions so I'm sure they were prioritized. The most recent balance patches made some fine tuning changes to Mesmer's DPS and I think that's a really great start. Like, I said earlier it follows the same pattern they did with guards. It didn't happen overnight. I would like to say I'm speaking from experiance, but honestly to say they are going to make more changes or none at all is really no ones call. Its something I would really like to see, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OriOri.8724 Posted October 21, 2017 Share Posted October 21, 2017 > @apharma.3741 said: > > In general though mesmer has one of the best structures for PvE dps though in that they have to use 3 specific trait lines to get those damage boosts, while I do not like the traits themselves as they are phantasm buffing, the fact that the major damage traits are across 3 trait lines is how many classes should work. Yup. Its a good design, really. Its just that our class mechanic as a whole is still extremely contradictory Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swiftwynd.1685 Posted October 21, 2017 Share Posted October 21, 2017 > @Cyninja.2954 said: > > @Swiftwynd.1685 said: > > > @Daishi.6027 said: > > > I haven't started raiding until recently. But isn't like 3 Illusionary swordsmen with Phantasmal force on a power build credit to team? > > > I don't have a DPS meter but when people were calling out the top DPS I was like 3rd to 4th highest most of the time, and that was as a Mirage beating out the two chrono in the party. Maybe my team sucked at DPS, and we only got a fire brand later when I dropped to 4th (despite him being dead half the time lol), but we cleared content, > > > so... I can't complain? > > > > > > I would like to do crazy DPS numbers, but I'm just happy I can contribute without having to roll chrono and play speed/alacrity bot, and this is something all mesmers have, even if it's a fiddly mechanic that probably needs a few QoL Buffs. > > > > Once you learn how to do it, Power Mesmer is solid, consistent damage. It won't have as many situations in which its damage can go down the gutter like some of the more meta "max potential builds." For example, if you are not receiving permanent quickness and alacrity, or have to "dodge" a telegraph, Power Mesmer can usually just continue plugging along and doing just fine. If its a mobile boss fight in particular, or a fight in which you have to back off the boss a lot (Mathias) then it does even better than most other builds on average. Its also just hard to "play it poorly" once you get past the very basic learning curve of the build. > > First off, you are arguing from a position of mediocrity. We all know mesmer (both Mirage and power core) have a solid easy baseline damage they provide. This is the main benefit and detriment of having damage tied to AI pets. As long as the mesmer stays alive, he will provide damage. That's nothing new. > > Just as is the fact that mesmer due to his pet mechanic benefits less from alacrity, quickness and might. Which benefits a mesmer if the raid is lacking in this department. > > Look at what your baseline of arguments is based on though: > > - bad alacrity, quickness and might. This is an issue only in bad pugs or very unskilled/new static groups > - subpar damage dealers who are not able to keep up their rotation. Literally sub 200 LI territory > - specific encounters which benefit the unique mesmer pet mechanic (yes we know matthias favors mesmer greatly) > > You are very biased and focusing on subpar or low skill groups. Yes, in a low skill enviroment a mesmer will perform adequately. > > Also the argument that you full clear is moot. Every experienced raider full clears weekly. The question is, how fast and efficient are you full clearing and how much of the mesmer slack has to be picked up by other classes? > > The thought example of musu is valid by the way, how well would a raid with 4 mesmer as damage dealers work out? If mesmer was so strong in every department as you claim (not lacking aoe, not having significant winde uptime, etc.) it should be a non issue. I sincerely doubt that's the case. > > As far as fractals, this is the most evident place where one notices the shortcommings of mesmers. Winduptime on trash mobs which just get cleaved down by other dps and low non-shatter cleave make high level fractals tedious at best with a mesmer as damage dealer. --- Everyone, observe closely. Here we see a wild elitist in his natural environment, the official forums: Notice his subtle dig at anyone who is "sub 200 LI", his insistence that "that you full clear is moot. Every experienced raider full clears weekly" in an attempt to assert his superiority, and his out of touch reality with the bulk of the raiding community in assuming "bad alacrity, quickness and might" is the exception than the norm. This untamed beast should be avoided due to the unhealthy nature of the excessive saline they secrete, quickly reaching toxic levels and causing permanent ego damage. --- For real though, if you only full clear each week with a static, and do not regularly engage in training runs, you literally are not talking from a point of experience that is relevant to a new raider or even a medium experience raider. You don't need **literal beyond Legendary Armor levels of Legendary Insights** completed before you can consider yourself "experienced enough to full clear", which is the only goal any new raider should be working towards if they want to avoid toxic individuals, like yourself, who are a blight on our otherwise awesome and inclusive community. I work with the average. I help training the below average. I work on getting people to a stage of competency with the content. Power Mesmer is a great example of a build that thrives with that goal. Power Weaver, by comparison with its intricate rotation, fragility, and unreliable damage at best, is not something you should be promoting new raiders to try out "simply because its the best on QTFY." People are, as a course of basic statistics bell-curves, not going to hit Qtfy Performance levels. Ever. And the assumptions made with a lot of their builds (e.g. Power DH always having good Retaliation up time, always having full Alacrity for maintaining rotations when people have to do mechanics etc) are just plain and simple not being born out by actual findings from Raidar for successful runs. And that is the main problem: you determine that success is based off of trying to get a quicker kill. We determine the success of a kill is based off of a successful kill in a single pull if able. I would rather a fight get "closer" to the timer, than have to restart a fight because someone tunnel-visioned their rotations, screwed up a mechanic, or became downed or wiped the raid. That, along with LFGing or trying to wait an additional 5 minutes to have their perfect meta composition, slow raids down infinitely more than if people just used their "Effective and Viable" builds with a "good enough" composition. That is the kind of environment we promote on my discord with over 2,300 active members. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean.2638 Posted October 21, 2017 Share Posted October 21, 2017 I support Swift's statement whole heartedly. We BOTH come from a position of vast experience of guiding people into raiding and seeing how and what works effectively, not supremely. Like he stated, if you clear in 3 hours or less once or twice a week, that is not speaking from experience on this topic. That is speaking from being able to copy and paste qT's build because it's labelled "meta". 200 LI is not the cutoff for experienced raiders, and I would be willing to testify to that as well. To think that shows that you play one class with one rotation, once a week, with one group. Please broaden your raiding experiences and come back to the conversation when you have a bit more to go off of. Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zenith.7301 Posted October 21, 2017 Share Posted October 21, 2017 > @Swiftwynd.1685 said: > > @Cyninja.2954 said: > > > @Swiftwynd.1685 said: > > > > @Daishi.6027 said: > > > > I haven't started raiding until recently. But isn't like 3 Illusionary swordsmen with Phantasmal force on a power build credit to team? > > > > I don't have a DPS meter but when people were calling out the top DPS I was like 3rd to 4th highest most of the time, and that was as a Mirage beating out the two chrono in the party. Maybe my team sucked at DPS, and we only got a fire brand later when I dropped to 4th (despite him being dead half the time lol), but we cleared content, > > > > so... I can't complain? > > > > > > > > I would like to do crazy DPS numbers, but I'm just happy I can contribute without having to roll chrono and play speed/alacrity bot, and this is something all mesmers have, even if it's a fiddly mechanic that probably needs a few QoL Buffs. > > > > > > Once you learn how to do it, Power Mesmer is solid, consistent damage. It won't have as many situations in which its damage can go down the gutter like some of the more meta "max potential builds." For example, if you are not receiving permanent quickness and alacrity, or have to "dodge" a telegraph, Power Mesmer can usually just continue plugging along and doing just fine. If its a mobile boss fight in particular, or a fight in which you have to back off the boss a lot (Mathias) then it does even better than most other builds on average. Its also just hard to "play it poorly" once you get past the very basic learning curve of the build. > > > > First off, you are arguing from a position of mediocrity. We all know mesmer (both Mirage and power core) have a solid easy baseline damage they provide. This is the main benefit and detriment of having damage tied to AI pets. As long as the mesmer stays alive, he will provide damage. That's nothing new. > > > > Just as is the fact that mesmer due to his pet mechanic benefits less from alacrity, quickness and might. Which benefits a mesmer if the raid is lacking in this department. > > > > Look at what your baseline of arguments is based on though: > > > > - bad alacrity, quickness and might. This is an issue only in bad pugs or very unskilled/new static groups > > - subpar damage dealers who are not able to keep up their rotation. Literally sub 200 LI territory > > - specific encounters which benefit the unique mesmer pet mechanic (yes we know matthias favors mesmer greatly) > > > > You are very biased and focusing on subpar or low skill groups. Yes, in a low skill enviroment a mesmer will perform adequately. > > > > Also the argument that you full clear is moot. Every experienced raider full clears weekly. The question is, how fast and efficient are you full clearing and how much of the mesmer slack has to be picked up by other classes? > > > > The thought example of musu is valid by the way, how well would a raid with 4 mesmer as damage dealers work out? If mesmer was so strong in every department as you claim (not lacking aoe, not having significant winde uptime, etc.) it should be a non issue. I sincerely doubt that's the case. > > > > As far as fractals, this is the most evident place where one notices the shortcommings of mesmers. Winduptime on trash mobs which just get cleaved down by other dps and low non-shatter cleave make high level fractals tedious at best with a mesmer as damage dealer. > > --- > > Everyone, observe closely. Here we see a wild elitist in his natural environment, the official forums: > > Notice his subtle dig at anyone who is "sub 200 LI", his insistence that "that you full clear is moot. Every experienced raider full clears weekly" in an attempt to assert his superiority, and his out of touch reality with the bulk of the raiding community in assuming "bad alacrity, quickness and might" is the exception than the norm. This untamed beast should be avoided due to the unhealthy nature of the excessive saline they secrete, quickly reaching toxic levels and causing permanent ego damage. > > --- > > For real though, if you only full clear each week with a static, and do not regularly engage in training runs, you literally are not talking from a point of experience that is relevant to a new raider or even a medium experience raider. > > You don't need **literal beyond Legendary Armor levels of Legendary Insights** completed before you can consider yourself "experienced enough to full clear", which is the only goal any new raider should be working towards if they want to avoid toxic individuals, like yourself, who are a blight on our otherwise awesome and inclusive community. > > I work with the average. I help training the below average. I work on getting people to a stage of competency with the content. > > Power Mesmer is a great example of a build that thrives with that goal. Power Weaver, by comparison with its intricate rotation, fragility, and unreliable damage at best, is not something you should be promoting new raiders to try out "simply because its the best on QTFY." > > People are, as a course of basic statistics bell-curves, not going to hit Qtfy Performance levels. Ever. And the assumptions made with a lot of their builds (e.g. Power DH always having good Retaliation up time, always having full Alacrity for maintaining rotations when people have to do mechanics etc) are just plain and simple not being born out by actual findings from Raidar for successful runs. > > > And that is the main problem: you determine that success is based off of trying to get a quicker kill. We determine the success of a kill is based off of a successful kill in a single pull if able. I would rather a fight get "closer" to the timer, than have to restart a fight because someone tunnel-visioned their rotations, screwed up a mechanic, or became downed or wiped the raid. That, along with LFGing or trying to wait an additional 5 minutes to have their perfect meta composition, slow raids down infinitely more than if people just used their "Effective and Viable" builds with a "good enough" composition. > > That is the kind of environment we promote on my discord with over 2,300 active members. Totally unrelated question: How will someone get better at weaver if they're not bad at it to begin with? The best way to learn weaver is to practice with it in a raid environment. If you dissuade people to take the "easier" spec, you've effectively eased them into the handicap. It's like saying 25 scale will teach you to do 100. It really won't. 25 and 75 virtually deal negligible damage and omit most of the deadly mechanics. If I don't smash my face into something that insta downs me, I probably won't be quick to learn to avoid it. Similarly with the notion that 100 can prepare you for 100 cm. It really doesn't, the overlap of new mechanics can only be learned successfully by practicing at that difficulty level. Doesn't mean I disagree with you in wishing "good enough" was not a barrier to entry. But those barriers to entry exist, and rather pervasively. And it really doesn't feel good when you were competing with your weaver as a scourge in 100 cm, and after the patch you're lucky to output 70% of what they do. The deltas in performance NEED to be closed more diligently in this game. This game really sold itself with the dead that classes would competitively perform in every task they picked. They had it in their vanilla manifesto. People are right to hold them accountable to that promise of build variety and viability instead of the deep chasms we have in spec throughput. Especially when you have preferences for playstyle like power vs. condi and some classes don't have anything remotely passable in the power department like ranger or necromancer. They have to bring most of the classes up to the level of the Guardian, who has both competitive power and condition builds, and support ones to boot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FaboBabo.3581 Posted October 21, 2017 Share Posted October 21, 2017 > @Knox.8962 said: > > @FaboBabo.3581 said: > > can anone test following related to the condi Mirage Dps benchmark. > > -> When havin 3 ipstols out, and pistol 4 is ready again, wait until all 3 phants attacked, then double cast axe 2, replacing one phant twice(?), and then instantly replace the clone for pistol 4 phant again. > > > > If all 3 phants attacked we wont have a loss if we time the double axe cast well, adn replace the phantasm, so he is the first one in the phant attack-cycle, is my theory. > > In testing this a week or two ago, what we saw was that the DPS was pretty close to neutral without a field down. If you have somebody spamming damaging fields, the DPS of the option where you use axe 2 increases over just letting the phantasms stay alive. > > Also worth noting: In general, an axe clone in full raid buffs is about a 700 DPS loss compared to a traited pistol phantasm. So 3 axe clones spamming AA are about 2k DPS below 3 pistol phantasms. So with good timing u can make use of it ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyninja.2954 Posted October 21, 2017 Share Posted October 21, 2017 > @Swiftwynd.1685 said: > > @Cyninja.2954 said: > > > @Swiftwynd.1685 said: > > > > @Daishi.6027 said: > > > > I haven't started raiding until recently. But isn't like 3 Illusionary swordsmen with Phantasmal force on a power build credit to team? > > > > I don't have a DPS meter but when people were calling out the top DPS I was like 3rd to 4th highest most of the time, and that was as a Mirage beating out the two chrono in the party. Maybe my team sucked at DPS, and we only got a fire brand later when I dropped to 4th (despite him being dead half the time lol), but we cleared content, > > > > so... I can't complain? > > > > > > > > I would like to do crazy DPS numbers, but I'm just happy I can contribute without having to roll chrono and play speed/alacrity bot, and this is something all mesmers have, even if it's a fiddly mechanic that probably needs a few QoL Buffs. > > > > > > Once you learn how to do it, Power Mesmer is solid, consistent damage. It won't have as many situations in which its damage can go down the gutter like some of the more meta "max potential builds." For example, if you are not receiving permanent quickness and alacrity, or have to "dodge" a telegraph, Power Mesmer can usually just continue plugging along and doing just fine. If its a mobile boss fight in particular, or a fight in which you have to back off the boss a lot (Mathias) then it does even better than most other builds on average. Its also just hard to "play it poorly" once you get past the very basic learning curve of the build. > > > > First off, you are arguing from a position of mediocrity. We all know mesmer (both Mirage and power core) have a solid easy baseline damage they provide. This is the main benefit and detriment of having damage tied to AI pets. As long as the mesmer stays alive, he will provide damage. That's nothing new. > > > > Just as is the fact that mesmer due to his pet mechanic benefits less from alacrity, quickness and might. Which benefits a mesmer if the raid is lacking in this department. > > > > Look at what your baseline of arguments is based on though: > > > > - bad alacrity, quickness and might. This is an issue only in bad pugs or very unskilled/new static groups > > - subpar damage dealers who are not able to keep up their rotation. Literally sub 200 LI territory > > - specific encounters which benefit the unique mesmer pet mechanic (yes we know matthias favors mesmer greatly) > > > > You are very biased and focusing on subpar or low skill groups. Yes, in a low skill enviroment a mesmer will perform adequately. > > > > Also the argument that you full clear is moot. Every experienced raider full clears weekly. The question is, how fast and efficient are you full clearing and how much of the mesmer slack has to be picked up by other classes? > > > > The thought example of musu is valid by the way, how well would a raid with 4 mesmer as damage dealers work out? If mesmer was so strong in every department as you claim (not lacking aoe, not having significant winde uptime, etc.) it should be a non issue. I sincerely doubt that's the case. > > > > As far as fractals, this is the most evident place where one notices the shortcommings of mesmers. Winduptime on trash mobs which just get cleaved down by other dps and low non-shatter cleave make high level fractals tedious at best with a mesmer as damage dealer. > > --- > > Everyone, observe closely. Here we see a wild elitist in his natural environment, the official forums: > > Notice his subtle dig at anyone who is "sub 200 LI", his insistence that "that you full clear is moot. Every experienced raider full clears weekly" in an attempt to assert his superiority, and his out of touch reality with the bulk of the raiding community in assuming "bad alacrity, quickness and might" is the exception than the norm. This untamed beast should be avoided due to the unhealthy nature of the excessive saline they secrete, quickly reaching toxic levels and causing permanent ego damage. First off, I'll not take your elitist jab as an insult but merely as a try to discredit my opinion and arguments by making hostile jabs without any substance. I'm sorry you started late with your raiding experience in GW2. The current maximum amount of Legendary Insights as of this post is 919 total. 200 LI means NOTHING in the raiding enviroment any longer. I could have made a long winding speach about player experience, achievement points, legendary insights and what not but decided to keep it short and and use 1 simple sentence to refer to inexperienced or low skilled players. You on the otherhand are a furious defender of mediocrety. There is nothing wrong with expecting performance or people actually wanting to improve or providing a significant meaningful impact to a raid group. I even indulged you in agreeing that mesmer is a very easy and stable damage build with consistent performance without a good peak performance. > @Swiftwynd.1685 said: > For real though, if you only full clear each week with a static, and do not regularly engage in training runs, you literally are not talking from a point of experience that is relevant to a new raider or even a medium experience raider. I was not aware we were refering only to new raiders here? Last time I checked this thread was about mesmer dps in general. > @Swiftwynd.1685 said: > > You don't need **literal beyond Legendary Armor levels of Legendary Insights** completed before you can consider yourself "experienced enough to full clear", which is the only goal any new raider should be working towards if they want to avoid toxic individuals, like yourself, who are a blight on our otherwise awesome and inclusive community. The main goal a raider should work towards is enjoying the game. This can be in form of full clearing, getting all the skins, getting legendary armor, spending quality time with his friends/guildmates or in improving his performance as much as he can. You do not get to decide what goals people should have in this game. You should provide realistic and correct advice though for new players. > @Swiftwynd.1685 said: > > I work with the average. I help training the below average. I work on getting people to a stage of competency with the content. Good for you. So do I on 1-2 training runs per week. When debating the effectiveness of a class though I will be as objective as I can without aiming as "getting it done" as lowest bar. > @Swiftwynd.1685 said: > > Power Mesmer is a great example of a build that thrives with that goal. Power Weaver, by comparison with its intricate rotation, fragility, and unreliable damage at best, is not something you should be promoting new raiders to try out "simply because its the best on QTFY." Power mesmer is a great way to get into raiding with never having to raise the bar to high. Simply because it's peak performance and requirements are that low. Weaver while 100 times more difficult would allow an individual to reach way higher performance if they so desire. It's not your job to dissuade them from it, but objectively inform them about what possibilities they have. > @Swiftwynd.1685 said: > > People are, as a course of basic statistics bell-curves, not going to hit Qtfy Performance levels. Ever. This is where you are wrong. I've seen people hit quantify benchmarks regularly. Ofcorse this was more in static groups than in randomg pugs. There is enough of a high tier raiding community with skilled players besides quantify. Even from different countries. There is also enough new players comming from other games with raiding experience and the drive to bring top tier performance. Those are the players who will not be fine with "just clearing". They have a right to know what state a class they chose is in. Again, you are projecting your own lowbar expectations and strife on an entire playerbase. Hence why I said you are aiming at mediocrety. > @Swiftwynd.1685 said: > And that is the main problem: you determine that success is based off of trying to get a quicker kill. I determine success based off of trying to achieve what the individual aimes for. If killing is their only goal, that's fine by me. There is people though who are beyond "I just want the kill". There is experienced raid groups who do nothing but practice a new strategy only to shave off some more seconds off a boss fight. > @Swiftwynd.1685 said: > We determine the success of a kill is based off of a successful kill in a single pull if able. I would rather a fight get "closer" to the timer, than have to restart a fight because someone tunnel-visioned their rotations, screwed up a mechanic, or became downed or wiped the raid. Which is perfectly fine. But then be as honest and at least say so and evaluate a class based on your own limitations. Go read what I wrote about mesmer again. You will notice that this is exactly what I did. > @Swiftwynd.1685 said: > That, along with LFGing or trying to wait an additional 5 minutes to have their perfect meta composition, slow raids down infinitely more than if people just used their "Effective and Viable" builds with a "good enough" composition. Because waiting on a dps is what takes time when forming a group? Not the last time I checked. > @Swiftwynd.1685 said: > That is the kind of environment we promote on my discord with over 2,300 active members. Nice, how is this relevant to the disscussion besides some attempt at epeen measuring? I'm sorry, to old for that kind of stuff to phase me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apharma.3741 Posted October 21, 2017 Share Posted October 21, 2017 I like how Swiftwynd has a fetish for weaver, constantly goes on about it’s harder rotation and how mesmer is easier. There are other classes, stop being a toxic elitist and only looking at qT benchmarks and assuming everyone must play weaver. Many play scourge, firebrand, thief and ranger, all of which have a far more simple rotation than weaver, don’t get shafted by your team being unable to find their arse with both hands and don’t have excessive channel times and fragility. They are also offer a much better damage profile and maximum damage. Also while on the subject of toxicity, your response is full of it Swiftwynd where you instead of trying to debate with facts or reason you instead opted to use insults and degradation in order to discredit someone else’s opinion. Fyi, I have led my own raid group and advised 2 others from the level of 10 people who had no clue up to 10 people who can now kill or clear every week. I know what’s effective per skill level, I know to adjust comps depending on what turns up and have run groups without chronos before yet still got kills easily by running safe builds. I and many other people here are not new to raiding, we’re not “meta or gtfo” people, we just have standards and seek to improve above mediocrity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blood Red Arachnid.2493 Posted October 21, 2017 Share Posted October 21, 2017 From a sheer maintenance standpoint, I'd put the Mirage as harder than the Weaver. The Weaver is complicated and unrealistic, but it is fairly well paced and sequential. The most complicated part of the Weaver rotation is having to double attune while using a conjure. To get maximum damage out of the Mirage, you have to simultaneously manage four different resources: Jaunt, Mirage Cloak, Weapon Swap, and the weapon skills themselves. Three of those skills are instant-cast, so to have peak performance you essentially need to use all of them at the same time. As I have general keybinds and a finite number of fingers, actually hitting this peak performance is really difficult. It took literal days of intermittent testing before I could even approach the benchmarks that qT has. In the long term this isn't a problem, but when fighting a boss that only lives for a minute, bursting out all of that damage is crucial to a good performance. There's not much that can be done to fix this, though. Mirage Cloak and Weapon Swap have to be instant. In theory, Anet could change Jaunt into a skill with a single use and animation time, but with far stronger effects, but in practice Jaunt exists in PVP/PVE primarily has a movement skill with minor damage attached. Also in theory, if Infinite Horizon is baseline and the clone build becomes competitive with the phantasm build in long term damage, then the phantasm summoning skills can be neglected, giving the player less skills to worry about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nozome.7853 Posted October 21, 2017 Share Posted October 21, 2017 The problem with mesmer is that it relies on the phantasms too much and you need a long time until you reach your max dmg output. This is the reason why mesmer only performs well on mathias and cairn... they dont "disappear" like the rest of the bosses. So with a measly 31k and 34k dps you are effectively shit on every other boss . Even if mesmer was performing 40k+ dps on the golem , it would be still shit in every boss besides mat/cairn... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feanor.2358 Posted October 21, 2017 Share Posted October 21, 2017 > @apharma.3741 said: > I like how Swiftwynd has a fetish for weaver, constantly goes on about it’s harder rotation and how mesmer is easier. There are other classes, stop being a toxic elitist and only looking at qT benchmarks and assuming everyone must play weaver. Many play scourge, firebrand, thief and ranger, all of which have a far more simple rotation than weaver, don’t get shafted by your team being unable to find their kitten with both hands and don’t have excessive channel times and fragility. > > They are also offer a much better damage profile and maximum damage. > > Also while on the subject of toxicity, your response is full of it Swiftwynd where you instead of trying to debate with facts or reason you instead opted to use insults and degradation in order to discredit someone else’s opinion. > > Fyi, I have led my own raid group and advised 2 others from the level of 10 people who had no clue up to 10 people who can now kill or clear every week. I know what’s effective per skill level, I know to adjust comps depending on what turns up and have run groups without chronos before yet still got kills easily by running safe builds. I and many other people here are not new to raiding, we’re not “meta or gtfo” people, we just have standards and seek to improve above mediocrity. If anyone has a fetish about weaver, it should be me. I've been an ele main since vanilla release and for a long time it was the sole class I played. However, I definitely do not recommend it for everyone and certainly not everywhere. I stick with weaver on most bosses, cause, you know, it's my main. I still get better results with a Mirage on both Matthias and Cairn, and pretty much any decent condi build on Sabetha and MO. I can also recommend Firebrand over a Weaver on Sloth because of all the QoL that comes with it - stunbreak & Aegis every 12 seconds, extra pulls, excellent cleave, not to mention the extra Quickness. I know, I know, every raid chrono upkeeps 100% quickness uptime by himself at all times, regardless of mechanics and mistakes made. So yeah... just play what you like. As long as the build is sensible for the encounter and you can play it on a decent level, you wouldn't be hindering your group. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knox.8962 Posted October 21, 2017 Share Posted October 21, 2017 > @FaboBabo.3581 said: > > @Knox.8962 said: > > > @FaboBabo.3581 said: > > > can anone test following related to the condi Mirage Dps benchmark. > > > -> When havin 3 ipstols out, and pistol 4 is ready again, wait until all 3 phants attacked, then double cast axe 2, replacing one phant twice(?), and then instantly replace the clone for pistol 4 phant again. > > > > > > If all 3 phants attacked we wont have a loss if we time the double axe cast well, adn replace the phantasm, so he is the first one in the phant attack-cycle, is my theory. > > > > In testing this a week or two ago, what we saw was that the DPS was pretty close to neutral without a field down. If you have somebody spamming damaging fields, the DPS of the option where you use axe 2 increases over just letting the phantasms stay alive. > > > > Also worth noting: In general, an axe clone in full raid buffs is about a 700 DPS loss compared to a traited pistol phantasm. So 3 axe clones spamming AA are about 2k DPS below 3 pistol phantasms. > > So with good timing u can make use of it ? In golem testing, this setup beat the 3 phantasm setup by about 500 DPS if you have fire fields down full time. It was about 150 DPS lower without fields. Additionally, if you need cleave damage, using 3 axe clones puts you at about 32k DPS, but you get significantly improved cleave damage and almost 0 ramp up time. Oddly, using axe 2 or axe 3 with 3 clones up seems to actually hurt your DPS as it interrupts the clone attacks preventing them from landing the last AA hit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
musu.9205 Posted October 21, 2017 Share Posted October 21, 2017 > @FaboBabo.3581 said: > can anone test following related to the condi Mirage Dps benchmark. > -> When havin 3 ipstols out, and pistol 4 is ready again, wait until all 3 phants attacked, then double cast axe 2, replacing one phant twice(?), and then instantly replace the clone for pistol 4 phant again. > > If all 3 phants attacked we wont have a loss if we time the double axe cast well, adn replace the phantasm, so he is the first one in the phant attack-cycle, is my theory. > @Knox.8962 said: > > @FaboBabo.3581 said: > > > @Knox.8962 said: > > > > @FaboBabo.3581 said: > > > > can anone test following related to the condi Mirage Dps benchmark. > > > > -> When havin 3 ipstols out, and pistol 4 is ready again, wait until all 3 phants attacked, then double cast axe 2, replacing one phant twice(?), and then instantly replace the clone for pistol 4 phant again. > > > > > > > > If all 3 phants attacked we wont have a loss if we time the double axe cast well, adn replace the phantasm, so he is the first one in the phant attack-cycle, is my theory. > > > > > > In testing this a week or two ago, what we saw was that the DPS was pretty close to neutral without a field down. If you have somebody spamming damaging fields, the DPS of the option where you use axe 2 increases over just letting the phantasms stay alive. > > > > > > Also worth noting: In general, an axe clone in full raid buffs is about a 700 DPS loss compared to a traited pistol phantasm. So 3 axe clones spamming AA are about 2k DPS below 3 pistol phantasms. > > > > So with good timing u can make use of it ? > > In golem testing, this setup beat the 3 phantasm setup by about 500 DPS if you have fire fields down full time. It was about 150 DPS lower without fields. > > Additionally, if you need cleave damage, using 3 axe clones puts you at about 32k DPS, but you get significantly improved cleave damage and almost 0 ramp up time. > > Oddly, using axe 2 or axe 3 with 3 clones up seems to actually hurt your DPS as it interrupts the clone attacks preventing them from landing the last AA hit. but isnt axe 3 clone supposed to hit with 5 confusion too ? its so easy to fail since the rng part . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swiftwynd.1685 Posted October 21, 2017 Share Posted October 21, 2017 > @Nozome.7853 said: > The problem with mesmer is that it relies on the phantasms too much and you need a long time until you reach your max dmg output. This is the reason why mesmer only performs well on mathias and cairn... they dont "disappear" like the rest of the bosses. So with a measly 31k and 34k dps you are effectively kitten on every other boss . Even if mesmer was performing 40k+ dps on the golem , it would be still kitten in every boss besides mat/cairn... > They actually don't disappear. Deimos is the only boss that they 100% disappear on for sure, and the only other mechanics that kill them are getting Sacrificed on Mathias and when you become a slubling on sloth. Every other boss they can be maintained 100% of the time without them disappearing, so the "ramp up" time is literally only the first 12 seconds of the fight more or less. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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