[Feedback] Post-7/7/20 Thief Balancing Discussion

[saerni.2584]

There's a few threads already discussing player confusion over the patch changes. This thread is somewhat about highlighting where the disconnect between the balance team and players is happening and then discussing how the Balance Team should consider updating Thief utilities, traits, and weapon skills going forward. I'll, briefly, review the patch from my perspective and then open it up into a more substantive discussion about where we go. I'll skip the CS changes for now because I haven't had a chance to review them and most players are interested merely in bringing them to PvE rather than being unhappy with the changes themselves (because yay buffs).

 

"With this update, we're looking to improve condition builds in PvE while reducing more egregious condition builds in PvP and WvW."

* Thousand Needles: Increased bleeding duration from 3 seconds to 5 seconds for both the impact and pulse attacks.

* Shadow Strike: Repeater availability duration has been reduced from 4 to 3 seconds in PvP and WvW.

* Death Blossom: The number of targets this skill can strike has been increased from 3 to 5.

* Pistol Whip: Increased flurry hit power coefficient from 0.53 to 0.6 in PvP and WvW.

* Leeching Venoms: Reduced life-stealing base damage from 320 to 160 in PvP and WvW. Reduced life-stealing power coefficient from 0.0333 to 0.0165 in PvP and WvW.

* Shadow Siphoning: Reduced life-stealing base damage from 312 to 218 in PvP and WvW. Reduced life-stealing power coefficient from 0.1 to 0.07 in PvP and WvW.

* Keen Observer: Increased bonus critical chance from 5% to 10%.

* Practiced Tolerance: Increased precision-to-ferocity conversion from 10% to 15% in PvP and WvW.

* No Quarter: Increased ferocity from 250 to 300 in PvP and WvW.

 

From this list, I can surmise that increasing the Thousand Needles bleed duration and increasing the target cap on Death Blossom are generally intended to "improve condition builds in PvE." I think the biggest disconnect between the Balance Team and the player base is that the player base understands Thief condition builds to be "very weak in PvE" while the Balance Team appears to believe Thief condition builds are somewhat ok in PvE. Thief players expected a bigger buff simply because of the impression that condition builds perform so much lower than the top tiers of applied thief damage, for example Deadeye rifle (which can chain 30-40k combo attacks).

 

I'd like to unpack that disconnect a little more. "Power" build and "Condition Build" exist on a spectrum. On one end is a pure Berserker and the other is pure Dire (Trailblazer sacrifices some of those stats for Expertise). These are however, contrary to popular belief, not equivalent polar opposite build types. One is pure glass cannon and the other is a comparative tank. Players often believe simple misconceptions like "power requires more stats to play" based on conflating the two in the same category. Everyone has a base of 1000 power and 0 condition damage and that means all condition builds do some level of power damage even without taking any stats for it. The truth is that all GW2 builds actually exist on a continuum from Pure Glass (Berserker/Grieving/Viper) to Pure Tank (Soldier/Dire). When we say that "condi thief needs a PvE buff" we sometimes ignore that a thief with 11k HP should generally always be doing more upfront damage than a thief with 20k HP and much higher armor. What we should all be saying is "buff condi utilities/traits/weapons so a pure Grieving thief can match up favorably with the pure Berserker thief in total damage (condi + power)."

 

Next, although Thief players assumed otherwise, I believe that the Leeching Venoms and Shadow Siphoning nerfs were aimed less at condition builds (given the adjustment to the power scaling coefficient) but at all thief builds generally. Power builds prior to the big-rebalancing patch were also using these traits to boost damage. I suspect this is one set of traits they are less sure about and wanted to tinker with more often. If this was aimed at condi builds then it seems the Balance Team is less concerned about the condi side of those builds.

 

As to Shadowstrike -> Repeater access duration, I honestly have no issues with this change. Repeater is a channeled attack and can be added to your skill queue. For this reason, when you reduce the duration of Repeater access you don't prevent a thief player from being able to queue up two Repeaters following a Shadowstrike. Reducing the access duration is best characterized as a nerf to outlier offensive damage but a buff to defensive capability by making the Shadowstrike teleport available again sooner. The flip skill actually feels more natural now than before and if this was intended to reduce "more egregious condition builds" I don't think this change will have that effect because players spamming a third Repeater were always the most vulnerable to counter attack from competent opponents.

 

So if we are looking to improve the state of condition builds in PvE we should probably start with the observation that thief applies conditions from a lot of very different sources. Traits that improve Steal/Swipe/Mark are common but don't apply that much condition damage (outside of a very long duration poison on steal). Utilities, like Thousand Needles or Spider Venom. Weapon skills like Sneak Attack, Death Blossom, Shadowstrike -> Repeater. All of these are places that improvements can take place, if not always justified as I discussed above.

 

Given that the Balance Team likes to buff underused or underpowered utilities/traits/weapons lets have a discussion about what should be buffed in PvE and why. And feel free to throw in whatever non-condi based changes. I just focused on condi because that's where the last patch implied it was aiming at.

[Mor The Thief.9135]

Condi thieves usually use Viper and not Grieving although Grieving is indeed a good condi stat combination. Aside from that I see no issue with what you wrote.

[saerni.2584]

> @"Mor The Thief.9135" said:

> Condi thieves usually use Viper and not Grieving although Grieving is indeed a good condi stat combination. Aside from that I see no issue with what you wrote.

 

Edited, yeah the stat combo can be pretty various these days. Grieving was just what came to mind in the moment. I edited OP to reflect Vipers as another glass option.

[Taril.8619]

> @"saerni.2584" said:

> I'd like to unpack that disconnect a little more. "Power" build and "Condition Build" exist on a spectrum. On one end is a pure Berserker and the other is pure Dire (Trailblazer sacrifices some of those stats for Expertise). These are however, contrary to popular belief, not equivalent polar opposite build types. One is pure glass cannon and the other is a comparative tank.

 

If you're talking just what has highest Condition Damage sure.

 

In reality, Glass Cannon Condi Builds run Viper/Greiving because Expertise + Condition Damage > Just a slightly higher Condition Damage from Carrion/Dire/Sinister.

 

Also note, that most Condi Builds do utilize Precision too, due to Condi on Crit traits and Sigils. Meaning that the ideal "Glass Cannon Full Condi Damage" gear would be Condi Damage/Expertise/Precision but that doesn't exist.

 

In PvP there is more of a difference, since there you find fewer sources of Condi on Crit due to no Sigils with the effect as well as there being a lack of Expertise gear (Not that Expertise really matters in PvP as your Condi's will not run out of time, they'll be cleansed)

 

As such, in PvP, Condi damage scales off of a single stat. Condition Damage. This allows them to use the other 2 stats for some defence without compromising on the damage of their conditions, though many will opt for something like Carrion or Rabid (Especially since Dire/Trailblazer are not available in PvP due to this ability to go full bunker with maxed Condi Damage)

 

> @"saerni.2584" said:

> Everyone has a base of 1000 power and 0 condition damage and that means all condition builds do some level of power damage even without taking any stats for it.

 

The thing to note is that many Condi skills, have low power coefficients. Things like Necro's Scepter auto attacks have coefficients of 0.35/0.5 (0.233/0.333 PvP), Death Blossom has a coefficient of 0.63, Chapter 2: Igniting Burst at 0.55 and Manifest Sand Shade at 0.666.

 

So while you do technically gain "Maximum damage" from stacking Power + Ferocity, those stats have less appreciable effect, especially when compared to the output your Conditions will be doing.

 

Of course, there are some outliers such as Firebrand and Mirage which have very high power coefficients on some Condi skills. For example, Axes of Symmetry with 1.75 (1.25 PvP), Repeater at 1.5, Searing Slash at 2.4 (1.6 in PvP) and Chapter 4: Scorched Aftermath at 3.2 (2.4 in PvP). These skills will be able to scale very well with Power/Ferocity stats, on top of providing large amounts of condition damage.

 

This is something to keep in mind when looking at overall damage and PvE viability as well as PvP oppressiveness. As are the **types** of conditions available to a class, since for example, Burning does WAY WAY WAY more damage per stack than every other condition and makes it burstier (It also has very high base damage with +131 flat damage per tick compared to the +22 of Bleed/Torment and +33.5 of Poision. This also makes it really strong in non-Condition builds too. Base burning with 0 condition damage doing its 131 flat damage per tick is equivalent damage to Bleed/Torment/Poison with 1800 Condition Damage)

 

In PvE, having good power coefficients makes the builds scale better and more functional in Fractals where damage over time is less useful. Especially when running Viper/Greiving.

 

Further to this, you generally want a Condition build to focus on 1-2 conditions. So that it's easier to get 100% duration from utilizing Runes and Traits as opposed to having to rely on just Expertise from gear (Which comes at the cost of Ferocity due to needing Viper instead of Greiving). Which is part of what makes Firebrand so strong, since it only uses Burning meaning it can go nearly full Greiving and still have 100% burning due to runes and the 33% increased burning duration trait.

 

[saerni.2584]

> @"Taril.8619" said:

> > @"saerni.2584" said:

> > I'd like to unpack that disconnect a little more. "Power" build and "Condition Build" exist on a spectrum. On one end is a pure Berserker and the other is pure Dire (Trailblazer sacrifices some of those stats for Expertise). These are however, contrary to popular belief, not equivalent polar opposite build types. One is pure glass cannon and the other is a comparative tank.

>

> If you're talking just what has highest Condition Damage sure.

>

> In reality, Glass Cannon Condi Builds run Viper/Greiving because Expertise + Condition Damage > Just a slightly higher Condition Damage from Carrion/Dire/Sinister.

>

> Also note, that most Condi Builds do utilize Precision too, due to Condi on Crit traits and Sigils. Meaning that the ideal "Glass Cannon Full Condi Damage" gear would be Condi Damage/Expertise/Precision but that doesn't exist.

>

> In PvP there is more of a difference, since there you find fewer sources of Condi on Crit due to no Sigils with the effect as well as there being a lack of Expertise gear (Not that Expertise really matters in PvP as your Condi's will not run out of time, they'll be cleansed)

>

> As such, in PvP, Condi damage scales off of a single stat. Condition Damage. This allows them to use the other 2 stats for some defence without compromising on the damage of their conditions, though many will opt for something like Carrion or Rabid (Especially since Dire/Trailblazer are not available in PvP due to this ability to go full bunker with maxed Condi Damage)

>

> > @"saerni.2584" said:

> > Everyone has a base of 1000 power and 0 condition damage and that means all condition builds do some level of power damage even without taking any stats for it.

>

> The thing to note is that many Condi skills, have low power coefficients. Things like Necro's Scepter auto attacks have coefficients of 0.35/0.5 (0.233/0.333 PvP), Death Blossom has a coefficient of 0.63, Chapter 2: Igniting Burst at 0.55 and Manifest Sand Shade at 0.666.

>

> So while you do technically gain "Maximum damage" from stacking Power + Ferocity, those stats have less appreciable effect, especially when compared to the output your Conditions will be doing.

>

> Of course, there are some outliers such as Firebrand and Mirage which have very high power coefficients on some Condi skills. For example, Axes of Symmetry with 1.75 (1.25 PvP), Repeater at 1.5, Searing Slash at 2.4 (1.6 in PvP) and Chapter 4: Scorched Aftermath at 3.2 (2.4 in PvP). These skills will be able to scale very well with Power/Ferocity stats, on top of providing large amounts of condition damage.

>

> This is something to keep in mind when looking at overall damage and PvE viability as well as PvP oppressiveness. As are the **types** of conditions available to a class, since for example, Burning does WAY WAY WAY more damage per stack than every other condition and makes it burstier (It also has very high base damage with +131 flat damage per tick compared to the +22 of Bleed/Torment and +33.5 of Poision. This also makes it really strong in non-Condition builds too. Base burning with 0 condition damage doing its 131 flat damage per tick is equivalent damage to Bleed/Torment/Poison with 1800 Condition Damage)

>

> In PvE, having good power coefficients makes the builds scale better and more functional in Fractals where damage over time is less useful. Especially when running Viper/Greiving.

>

> Further to this, you generally want a Condition build to focus on 1-2 conditions. So that it's easier to get 100% duration from utilizing Runes and Traits as opposed to having to rely on just Expertise from gear (Which comes at the cost of Ferocity due to needing Viper instead of Greiving). Which is part of what makes Firebrand so strong, since it only uses Burning meaning it can go nearly full Greiving and still have 100% burning due to runes and the 33% increased burning duration trait.

>

 

What exact stat combination is best has a lot of variables, even with thief builds specifically. Thief lacks on crit condition application traits. But Deadeye benefits from crits in a more significant way because crits = malice and for Malicious Sneak Attack malice = torment.

 

But you seem to be repeating the mistaken "condi scales off one stat" mantra. Condition damage skills may have lower power coefficients in specific cases but that doesn't mean they don't add up to a significant % of the damage (and especially since that damage is completely front loaded while the condi has to tick out). Any condition application skill that has power damage will have a mix of power and condi damage over time depending on stat choices. Soldier gear compared to Dire will be outclassed because condi damage is generally superior over time and Solider lacks the damage to get a kill faster than the time it takes for the Dire based set up to ramp up.

 

Once you invest in statistically significant amounts of power/precision/ferocity in addition to condi, the damage is much more comparable to power builds.

 

This is focused on thief skills that need buffs (I'm not denying that condi thief may need buffs in PvE). I'm just saying that things aren't so easily made clear by comparing "only" the condi damage and not the power/crit/ferocity aspect of the relevant skills.

[Taril.8619]

> @"saerni.2584" said:

> What exact stat combination is best has a lot of variables, even with thief builds specifically. Thief lacks on crit condition application traits. But Deadeye benefits from crits in a more significant way because crits = malice and for Malicious Sneak Attack malice = torment.

 

It really doesn't.

 

For Conditions, Condition Damage + Expertise is best.

 

For Power damage, Power + Precision > Ferocity is best.

 

Thus, for PvE, condition builds, it's Viper gear with Greiving replacing as much as possible while maintaining 100% bonus duration on relevant conditions.

 

> @"saerni.2584" said:

> But you seem to be repeating the mistaken "condi scales off one stat" mantra. Condition damage skills may have lower power coefficients in specific cases but that doesn't mean they don't add up to a significant % of the damage (and especially since that damage is completely front loaded while the condi has to tick out).

 

Conditions only scale off of 2 stats. Condition damage and Expertise.

 

In PvP, there is no Expertise and thus Conditions scale off only 1 stat. Condition Damage.

 

That is a fact. This is not some incorrect mantra. Power, Precision, Ferocity, Toughness, Vitality, Healing Power, Concentration do not affect the damage of Conditions.

 

Condition **builds** can still increase their damage using Power stats, since there is some amount of power damage on skills that apply conditions.

 

It however, still is worth noting that these power stats don't scale as well for most condition builds, due to their lower power coefficients as well as lower average crit chance (Viper/Greiving doesn't offer the same amount of Precision as Berserker). With Ferocity taking a double hit to its effective strength due to both of these things (Lower base damage to multiply as well as having crits less often)

 

For example, if we take Death Blossom with its 0.63 power coefficient and 3 stacks of Bleed for 10 seconds and look at the effect of stats on it overall (vs a medium armour target)

 

At base, with baseline stats of 1000 power and 0 condition damage, it will deal 285 damage and 660 bleed damage. **For a total of 885.**

 

With full Ascended Dire gear (1000 power and 1381 condition damage) it will deal 285 damage and 3146 bleed damage. **For a total of 3431.**

 

If we instead use full Ascended Trailblazer gear (1000 power, 1173 condition damage and 42.2% condition duration) it will deal 285 damage and 3941 bleed damage. **For a total of 4226.**

 

Now to start applying hybrid gear stats:

 

Carrion gear (1961 power and 1381 condition damage) it will do 561 damage and 3146 bleed damage. **For a total of 3707.**

 

Sinister gear (1961 power, 1381 condition damage, 50% crit chance 150% crit damage) it will do 841 damage 50% of the time (Average 701) and 3146 bleed damage. **For an average of 3847 and a high of 3987.**

 

Grieving gear (2173 power, 1173 condition damage, 35% crit chance, 192% crit damage) it will do 1192 damage 35% of the time (Average 820) and 2771 bleed damage. **For an average of 3591 and a high of 3963.**

 

Viper gear (2173 power, 1173 condition damage, 35% crit chance, 150% crit damage, 42.2% condition duration) it will do 931 damage 35% of the time (Average 729) and 3941 bleed damage. **For an average of 4670 and a high of 4872.**

 

As you can see, power stats merely offer ~10% damage to the skill. As the damage the condition does, scaled up with the 1-2 stats that actually benefit condition damage far exceed what little bonus the skill gets from power stats due to its poor coefficient.

 

 

[saerni.2584]

> @"Taril.8619" said:

> > @"saerni.2584" said:

> > What exact stat combination is best has a lot of variables, even with thief builds specifically. Thief lacks on crit condition application traits. But Deadeye benefits from crits in a more significant way because crits = malice and for Malicious Sneak Attack malice = torment.

>

> It really doesn't.

>

> For Conditions, Condition Damage + Expertise is best.

>

> For Power damage, Power + Precision > Ferocity is best.

>

> Thus, for PvE, condition builds, it's Viper gear with Greiving replacing as much as possible while maintaining 100% bonus duration on relevant conditions.

>

> > @"saerni.2584" said:

> > But you seem to be repeating the mistaken "condi scales off one stat" mantra. Condition damage skills may have lower power coefficients in specific cases but that doesn't mean they don't add up to a significant % of the damage (and especially since that damage is completely front loaded while the condi has to tick out).

>

> Conditions only scale off of 2 stats. Condition damage and Expertise.

>

> In PvP, there is no Expertise and thus Conditions scale off only 1 stat. Condition Damage.

>

> That is a fact. This is not some incorrect mantra. Power, Precision, Ferocity, Toughness, Vitality, Healing Power, Concentration do not affect the damage of Conditions.

>

> Condition **builds** can still increase their damage using Power stats, since there is some amount of power damage on skills that apply conditions.

>

> It however, still is worth noting that these power stats don't scale as well for most condition builds, due to their lower power coefficients as well as lower average crit chance (Viper/Greiving doesn't offer the same amount of Precision as Berserker). With Ferocity taking a double hit to its effective strength due to both of these things (Lower base damage to multiply as well as having crits less often)

>

> For example, if we take Death Blossom with its 0.63 power coefficient and 3 stacks of Bleed for 10 seconds and look at the effect of stats on it overall (vs a medium armour target)

>

> At base, with baseline stats of 1000 power and 0 condition damage, it will deal 285 damage and 660 bleed damage. **For a total of 885.**

>

> With full Ascended Dire gear (1000 power and 1381 condition damage) it will deal 285 damage and 3146 bleed damage. **For a total of 3431.**

>

> If we instead use full Ascended Trailblazer gear (1000 power, 1173 condition damage and 42.2% condition duration) it will deal 285 damage and 3941 bleed damage. **For a total of 4226.**

>

> Now to start applying hybrid gear stats:

>

> Carrion gear (1961 power and 1381 condition damage) it will do 561 damage and 3146 bleed damage. **For a total of 3707.**

>

> Sinister gear (1961 power, 1381 condition damage, 50% crit chance 150% crit damage) it will do 841 damage 50% of the time (Average 701) and 3146 bleed damage. **For an average of 3847 and a high of 3987.**

>

> Grieving gear (2173 power, 1173 condition damage, 35% crit chance, 192% crit damage) it will do 1192 damage 35% of the time (Average 820) and 2771 bleed damage. **For an average of 3591 and a high of 3963.**

>

> Viper gear (2173 power, 1173 condition damage, 35% crit chance, 150% crit damage, 42.2% condition duration) it will do 931 damage 35% of the time (Average 729) and 3941 bleed damage. **For an average of 4670 and a high of 4872.**

>

> As you can see, power stats merely offer ~10% damage to the skill. As the damage the condition does, scaled up with the 1-2 stats that actually benefit condition damage far exceed what little bonus the skill gets from power stats due to its poor coefficient.

>

>

 

I'm really sorry you did all that math and missed my point. My point is that comparisons of pure power builds overall damage versus condition builds overall damage are often inaccurate because they leave out a significant amount of power damage that those "condi" builds do. I offered the stat selection as examples of general stats a person can take. I never said which was "ideal" for any particular build or weapon skill.

 

Of course individual skills will have preferences in the damage type. Death Blossom is obviously a very poor power damage dealer. Sneak Attack does much better power damage compared to Death Blossom. My point is that when we ask for "condi" buffs we have to consider the whole weapon skill and say "does this, with actually comparable stats, do significantly less than expected when compared to a pure power skill (of which there are a number)."

 

 

[Taril.8619]

> @"saerni.2584" said:

> > @"Taril.8619" said:

> > > @"saerni.2584" said:

> > > What exact stat combination is best has a lot of variables, even with thief builds specifically. Thief lacks on crit condition application traits. But Deadeye benefits from crits in a more significant way because crits = malice and for Malicious Sneak Attack malice = torment.

> >

> > It really doesn't.

> >

> > For Conditions, Condition Damage + Expertise is best.

> >

> > For Power damage, Power + Precision > Ferocity is best.

> >

> > Thus, for PvE, condition builds, it's Viper gear with Greiving replacing as much as possible while maintaining 100% bonus duration on relevant conditions.

> >

> > > @"saerni.2584" said:

> > > But you seem to be repeating the mistaken "condi scales off one stat" mantra. Condition damage skills may have lower power coefficients in specific cases but that doesn't mean they don't add up to a significant % of the damage (and especially since that damage is completely front loaded while the condi has to tick out).

> >

> > Conditions only scale off of 2 stats. Condition damage and Expertise.

> >

> > In PvP, there is no Expertise and thus Conditions scale off only 1 stat. Condition Damage.

> >

> > That is a fact. This is not some incorrect mantra. Power, Precision, Ferocity, Toughness, Vitality, Healing Power, Concentration do not affect the damage of Conditions.

> >

> > Condition **builds** can still increase their damage using Power stats, since there is some amount of power damage on skills that apply conditions.

> >

> > It however, still is worth noting that these power stats don't scale as well for most condition builds, due to their lower power coefficients as well as lower average crit chance (Viper/Greiving doesn't offer the same amount of Precision as Berserker). With Ferocity taking a double hit to its effective strength due to both of these things (Lower base damage to multiply as well as having crits less often)

> >

> > For example, if we take Death Blossom with its 0.63 power coefficient and 3 stacks of Bleed for 10 seconds and look at the effect of stats on it overall (vs a medium armour target)

> >

> > At base, with baseline stats of 1000 power and 0 condition damage, it will deal 285 damage and 660 bleed damage. **For a total of 885.**

> >

> > With full Ascended Dire gear (1000 power and 1381 condition damage) it will deal 285 damage and 3146 bleed damage. **For a total of 3431.**

> >

> > If we instead use full Ascended Trailblazer gear (1000 power, 1173 condition damage and 42.2% condition duration) it will deal 285 damage and 3941 bleed damage. **For a total of 4226.**

> >

> > Now to start applying hybrid gear stats:

> >

> > Carrion gear (1961 power and 1381 condition damage) it will do 561 damage and 3146 bleed damage. **For a total of 3707.**

> >

> > Sinister gear (1961 power, 1381 condition damage, 50% crit chance 150% crit damage) it will do 841 damage 50% of the time (Average 701) and 3146 bleed damage. **For an average of 3847 and a high of 3987.**

> >

> > Grieving gear (2173 power, 1173 condition damage, 35% crit chance, 192% crit damage) it will do 1192 damage 35% of the time (Average 820) and 2771 bleed damage. **For an average of 3591 and a high of 3963.**

> >

> > Viper gear (2173 power, 1173 condition damage, 35% crit chance, 150% crit damage, 42.2% condition duration) it will do 931 damage 35% of the time (Average 729) and 3941 bleed damage. **For an average of 4670 and a high of 4872.**

> >

> > As you can see, power stats merely offer ~10% damage to the skill. As the damage the condition does, scaled up with the 1-2 stats that actually benefit condition damage far exceed what little bonus the skill gets from power stats due to its poor coefficient.

> >

> >

>

> I'm really sorry you did all that math and missed my point. My point is that comparisons of pure power builds overall damage versus condition builds overall damage are often inaccurate because they leave out a significant amount of power damage that those "condi" builds do. I offered the stat selection as examples of general stats a person can take. I never said which was "ideal" for any particular build or weapon skill.

>

> Of course individual skills will have preferences in the damage type. Death Blossom is obviously a very poor power damage dealer. Sneak Attack does much better power damage compared to Death Blossom. My point is that when we ask for "condi" buffs we have to consider the whole weapon skill and say "does this, with actually comparable stats, do significantly less than expected when compared to a pure power skill (of which there are a number)."

 

And I was pointing out that, depending on the skill, the power damage of "Condi" builds may not actually be significant.

 

Irregarless of this fact though, comparison of Power vs Condition builds don't actually rely on math, but on parses from DPS meters. Meaning that it's irrelevant in the grand scheme of things of what the breakdown of Power versus Condi damage, and entirely dependent on the overall DPS numbers gained.

 

This both includes the marginal Power DPS from Condi Builds with lackluster power coeffiicients (Such as D/D Thief, Scourge, Condi Chrono) as well as the marginal Condition DPS from Power builds (Such as Power Holo, Power DH, Power Weaver/Tempest)

 

Meanwhile the stat usage is very much relevant for PvP, where gear options are more limited. For Power builds to do full damage, they need to run Berserker. For Condi builds to do full damage, they need to run Sinister.

 

The problem as I've shown with my above calculations, in some cases, the damage output loss from ditching Sinister in favour of more defensive options such as Carrion or were it to exist, Dire would often be not particularly notable. This is also alongside certain cases where Condi builds might have actually good power coefficients and so they can utilize Carrion of Sinister stats to do quite reasonable power damage in addition to having their full strength conditions.

 

Which is a problem that will need to be looked at when tackling the "Egregious PvP/WvW condi builds" - Such as bunker builds that still do significant Condi damage. Or glass cannon Condi builds that burst people down really fast (Which can be notable since the big balance patch tried to increase TTK by nerfing Power damage across the board).

 

While the PvE side of Condi builds can look more towards overall DPS and tune coefficients and condition application/duration in order to meet a specific benchmark of overall DPS. Though, PvE also has the thing where you need to consider if you balance just for Raids and therefore only care about overall DPS or if you also factor in Fractal usage in which case fast, bursty damage is the main requirement (Which can mean pushing "Condi" builds too close to actually being "Power" builds if you lean too heavily on power coefficients and Viper/Grieving statlines that provide Power/Precision/Ferocity)

 

An interesting, if resource intensive, possibility could be the addition of a new stat for Conditions and the divorcing of Condi on Crit mechanics to move Condi Builds away from Precision. So that Power/Precision/Ferocity are the Power stats, with Ferocity piggybacking off Precision and then Condi Damage/Expertise/New Stat would be the Condi stats, with the New Stat possibly piggybacking off Expertise.

 

If this new stat would also help not only with DPS, but also burst damage for Fractals that could be an interesting way to go. Potentially in the form of some sort of "Crit" type effect for conditions (Or multiproc - Dealing damage multiple times when it ticks). Of course, the damage of conditions would need to be rebalanced to ensure that builds with the new statlines only end up doing comparable damage to Power builds.

 

 

[saerni.2584]

I’m talking about thief, in the thief subforum, and specifically about thief utilities, traits and weapon skills. Not about rebalancing condi for the whole game. Seen that thread. Not this thread. The stat spectrum discussion was to explain why I personally believe smaller than expected condi buffs may be needed in PvE. The point wasn’t to start a huge debate about how “Condi OP” or “Condi is unfair” or how sPvP condi thief still needs nerfs.

 

I honestly don’t know what Anet thinks is “egregious” about PvP thief Condi builds. Based on this patch there wasn’t a big change made, so I can’t guess what they want or how to fix whatever that is. I’m focusing on PvE because that’s where I have an actual direction to go off of). In PvE, the general consensus was that condi is weak. All I’m saying is that the Balance Team may be taking a more holistic approach to damage where they expect condi application skills to hit reasonably hard if you take some power/precision/ferocity. And, in that sense, there are plenty of condi application skills that have ok power scaling.

 

Examples: Sneak Attack, Dancing Dagger and Shadowstrike. Maybe Death Blossom needs a power coefficient buff. Maybe that makes condi builds better by supplementing the condi portion of their damage. That’s the mindset I’d like to encourage when people offer concrete balancing suggestions.

[Taril.8619]

> @"saerni.2584" said:

> I’m talking about thief, in the thief subforum, and specifically about thief utilities, traits and weapon skills. Not about rebalancing condi for the whole game. Seen that thread. Not this thread. The stat spectrum discussion was to explain why I personally believe smaller than expected condi buffs may be needed in PvE.

 

But thieves still exist, within the games rules at large.

 

If condi is considered weak in PvE overall, then simply tweaking thief won't do jack in the overall scheme of "Improving PvE Condi Thief" since it'll still end up inferior to Power builds.

 

Unless the idea is to simply crank up Thief's skills and utilities to the point where they're so overtuned that they end up being good in PvE.

 

> @"saerni.2584" said:

> All I’m saying is that the Balance Team may be taking a more holistic approach to damage where they expect condi application skills to hit reasonably hard if you take some power/precision/ferocity. And, in that sense, there are plenty of condi application skills that have ok power scaling.

>

> Examples: Sneak Attack, Dancing Dagger and Shadowstrike. Maybe Death Blossom needs a power coefficient buff. Maybe that makes condi builds better by supplementing the condi portion of their damage. That’s the mindset I’d like to encourage when people offer concrete balancing suggestions.

 

The thing is, they haven't really done anything to improve these things. Power coefficient still sucks on Death Blossom. Deadeye, Daredevil and Critical Strikes still all entirely focus on Power damage (With the exception of a single Daredevil trait and utility skill) which is 3 out of the 4 damage boosting specializations. There's been no change to P/D at all. Caltrops, Thousand Needles and Spider Venom all still suck.

 

And then there's the angle to consider that if they simply buff Death Blossom's power coefficient, it might end up simply being a buff to Power D/D by giving it an actual cleave capacity rather than making Condi D/D a thing.

 

The devs need to figure out where they want condition builds to sit before they can really try and fit Thief into that place. Do they want Condi builds to be useful in Fractals or is PvE Condi supposed to be relegated to just Raids (And then specific bosses in those Raids)? How much do they want Condi builds to simply be hybrid builds that still focus on stacking Power/Precision/Ferocity?

[DeceiverX.8361]

ANet, stop trying to make ~~fetch~~ Death Blossom happen [as a condi skill]. It's not going to happen.

 

Just rework it into an actually useful evade/gap closer first and foremost.

[Exitus.3297]

> @"saerni.2584" said:

 

> Next, although Thief players assumed otherwise, I believe that the Leeching Venoms and Shadow Siphoning nerfs were aimed less at condition builds (given the adjustment to the power scaling coefficient) but at all thief builds generally. Power builds prior to the big-rebalancing patch were also using these traits to boost damage. I suspect this is one set of traits they are less sure about and wanted to tinker with more often. If this was aimed at condi builds then it seems the Balance Team is less concerned about the condi side of those builds.

 

Pretty sure other Thief players assumed the same as you did. They're also just confused that ANet said they were aiming at particularly "egregious" condition builds then proceeded to nerf a set of traits that Power Builds also benefitted from. Leeching Venoms was the only real oddball because that "particularly egregious build" used active Venom Skills whereas most Power variants do not (not that they can't; they just don't)