Loot box = gambling ?

[Svarty.8019]

> @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:

> Anet will sidestep the laws through two technicalities.

>

> (2): When you open a chest, you're getting a statuette with some additional bonus items. This constitutes, at the minimum, a guaranteed purchase. It doesn't count as gambling because of this.

 

Is that the selling point of the chest? Is that the reason you buy it? A statuette? Let me check the advert... no. That's not what it says.

 

> @"coso.9173" said:

> if people buy the lootboxes for specific item(s) and they only assure you a poor low value item each time, I don't think that's enough to consider them not gambling IMO

 

Yes, it's like when you go to a funfair... you can see the giant teddy bear but you GET the plastic spider (haha, it says Made in Tyria on the underside).

[Teratus.2859]

> @"battledrone.8315" said:

> > @"Teratus.2859" said:

> > > @"Yggranya.5201" said:

> > > It is gambling. You might notice that in threads like these, people always come to defend it, every time. You might ask, why? Because if the addicts pay anets bills, they don't have to and as long as anet makes money, the game will propably continue.

> >

> > As a defender I take offense to that statement.

> >

> > I own all of GW1's campaigns as well as a reasonable amount of account upgrades in that game.

> > Likewise I preordered a collectors edition of Gw2 and own both expansion Ultimate editions.

> > I will be buying Expansion 3's collectors/Ultimate editions as well and I have invested god knows how much money in the gemstore over the years.

> > Not to mention I bought a friend both expansions as well a few years back.

> >

> > I've paid more than my fair share into this game and I am no addict.

> > I support this franchse because I love this franchise.

> > Plus if you give me the option to support something I care about of my own free will then I will.

> > But if you try to force me to keep throwing money into something under the threat you'll take that thing away from me regardless of how much i've already invested in it.. ergo the entire premise of mandatory subscription fees!! then I will walk the hell away faster than you can say Wait!!

> > Hell that is the main reason I've straight up quit supporting consoles after 30 years of collecting them, mandatory online subfees.. to hell with that.

> >

> > For all the hate Lootboxes are getting here I am amazed that Subscription fees are not being brought up more..

> > Mandatory Subfees are by far the most predatory and greedy practice in this industry.. far worse than any lootboxes i've ever seen.. and yet they are far more accepted despite how much they deserve to be utterly despised by gamers.

>

> if i dont like a game, then i prolly wont pay a sub for it, how is that PREDATORY?

> lootboxes OTOH, they are manifestations of pure GREED. the desirable objects always have a astronomically low droprate.

> and then they just fill the rest with low grade junk.

> sub fees requires a thing, that has become rather scarce in the mmo business : TRUST

 

I won't pay a sub even for something I like.

As far as I am concerned when I buy a game that game is mine to play as I see fit.

 

If a company tells me "oh no.. actually you're just renting the game and that initial price was nothing more than a downpayment and if you stop paying us we'll take the game away from you" then im pretty much going to tell said company to go straight to hell.

 

Sub based games are predatory in the sense that their price tag/cost is unlimited.

You'll be paying to play them forever without the possibility of ever owning the game.

Just look at those who've been playing Wow non stop for the past 16 years, they've put almost 3 grand into that game just on sub costs with nothing to show for it.. Everything goes away if they decide they don't want to pay for it anymore.

 

Oh and Wow of course also has a cash shop and lootboxes as well.. because ripping people off with a subfee just wasn't greedy enough.

That's why pro sub arguments don't make any sense when criticizing alternative monetization methods like cash shops and lootboxes.

[Teratus.2859]

> @"IndigoSundown.5419" said:

> > @"Teratus.2859" said:

> > What we're arguing about is whether or not Gw2's lootboxes are "predatory" and "unfair" that's a big difference.

>

> Good point.

>

> On that subject, the _definition_ of predatory that is relevant is: "Seeking to exploit or oppress others." I hope we can agree to drop any consideration of oppression. Since "or" is used, exploit is a sufficient qualifier, anyway.

>

Agreed.

 

> The relevant definition of exploit is: "make full use of and derive benefit from (a resource)." Loot boxes are designed as they are to entice people to spend more money on a desired item than they would spend if the item were sold at a fixed price that the market would bear. I'd be hard pressed to argue against the idea that getting more money out of people than they would be willing to spend if they knew the price qualifies as "making full use of." I suppose one could say that other game companies have worse loot boxes, but there I think we'd be arguing degree of exploitation, not presence versus absence.

>

Again agreed, I have no issues with that premise.

 

The degree of exploitation ergo the "is it predatory or not" aspect of Gw2's lootboxes specifically is what i'm maily focusing my arguments on.

I agree that they are a form of gambling and they are designed in a way to entice buying with money.. I just don't agree with those who describe them as predatory due to other factors i've mentioned.

 

> Further, there can be no dispute that ANet derives benefit whether the player is buying gems with cash, or buying gems bought by others with gold. In one case, they get cash directly, in the other, indirectly because a higher gems-->gold ratio is more of an enticement to splash cash on gold.

>

In those cases yes, no dispute that Anet benefits.

However there are also other methods of obtaining keys without the need for gold or gems.. cutting real world money out of the process entirely.

That's the biggest contributing factor to my defense argument and I don't think that can be overlooked when it comes to branding the Black Lion Chests/Keys as predatory.

 

To my knowledge this is a rarety in the lootbox market, I don't believe most games allow you to earn in game lootboxes.. let alone give you the ability to farm them like Gw2 does.

 

> To me, though, the most telling consideration is that loot boxes are designed around psychological tricks. The first trick is the carrot. That is, the idea that you could get lucky and get a desirable virtual gewgaw for very little outlay. Odds are, you won't, but a lot of people are willing to take that chance because the initial outlay is small.

>

True, we are.

 

For me this is especially true when I see something in the gemstore like a 2000 Gem Skyscale skin.

I can either spend 35 euros on 2800 gems to buy it.. which is more than the price of 2 full Gw2 expansions at this point.. which is just absurd imo.

Or I can try my luck on getting it in the black lion chests.. chances being that I will get it before I've spent anywhere near 35 euros on keys.

 

There is no guarantee I will get it though just a chance that I will.

However, I do actively keyfarm every week.. 1 character from 1-60 story for 3 keys a week.. somtimes more from map completion etc

When stuff like this pops into the chests that I really want I normally have a good few keys stored away that I paid nothing for.

 

I was able to obtain both that last 2000 gem Skyscale skin and the current Trihorn Raptor skin with free keys I had saved up.

I want those new wings too but I am not going to spend money on keys to get them, if I don't get them then I'll just accept it and wait for them to come around again when I have more free keys saved up.

 

I would strongly advise to anyone to start saving up keys like this, it is so much more worthwhile than just buying them.. and even though I defend Gw2's lootboxes I do actively try to discourage people from buying keys with money.

 

> The second trick is the big whammy, though. That's the conscious design choice to make use of some peoples' tendency to believe the gambler's fallacy, sunk cost fallacy, or both. Arguably, those people are the ones being exploited. The people who only open chests with keys obtained via play, or the ones who have the self control to stop after a few are not being exploited. To be honest, neither group is sufficient for ANet to bother with loot boxes in the first place. The players who can't control themselves, though, they're the ones being "made full use of." While I don't think much of the decision to exploit human weakness for money, it's not like things like that haven't been going on until recently.

>

> Fairness is another matter, one I won't discuss now.

 

Unfortunately there isn't much public data about this.. least not to my knowledge.

I have seen the occasional angry forum post from people who spent X amount of money on keys and didn't get what they wanted and feel cheated.. but that sort of thing isn't that common from what I can see.

 

For the most part the biggest contributors to a lot of gemstore and BLC stuff are the so called "Whales"

People with more money and time than they know what to do with so they decide to spend it on something they enjoy.

It's hard to really say those people are being taken advantage of when they can afford to spend what they do.

 

If they were poor like most of us and putting themselves in financial trouble because they had to have that RNG skin or something then yeah.. I would agree that's a very bad thing.

But so far I know of nobody that has done that with GW2.. and in most cases of people doing that over lootboxes it has been because of children that got access to a parents credit card and spent all their money.

 

That's a whole other argument though.. and largely what much of this legal battle against lootboxes is based on.

gambling being forced on kids, designed to prey on kids ergo they are predatory etc

 

To my knowledge pretty much all these games have age ratings though.. some lower than others like Gw2 and Fifa but still high enough so that young kids shouldn't be playing them.

That said, age ratings being raised because of lootboxes is not something I would be completely against.

Nor would blocking access to in game cash to gem purchases for accounts that are registered to people under a certain age.

However neither of these methods would prevent people underage from actually buying keys.. either through Gw2 directly or illegally via 3rd party cash to gold sites.

 

Ultimately personal responsibility will always be the only effective means of avoiding these problems.. or in the case of children, parents doing a better job at watching what their kids do online.

[Kodama.6453]

> @"Tukaram.8256" said:

> I have never seen loot boxes as gambling. To me gambling implies some chance to win something of value. Pixels have no value. But, if buying something and not knowing what is inside is gambling... then sure we can call it gambling. But then buying a pack of Pokemon cards is also gambling?

>

> Then again I would never pay real money for a lootbox. I may buy an item outright, but I would never buy a chance at an item. That is idiotic - who would buy them?

 

Or the biggest evil humankind knows to this day: Kinder Surprise Eggs

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

> @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:

> Anet will sidestep the laws through two technicalities.

>

> (1): The Gold to Gem conversion means that keys can be bought and used solely through in-game effort. This doesn't make chests gambling any more than anything else in the game.

> (2): When you open a chest, you're getting a statuette with some additional bonus items. This constitutes, at the minimum, a guaranteed purchase. It doesn't count as gambling because of this.

 

I'll add 3) Keys are a reward at lvl 10, 40 and 60. I've also gotten them from killing other players in WvW.

 

This is something you NEVER have to use real world money on if you do not want to. If anything they'll just remove the keys from the EU store and keep them elsewhere.

 

Frankly I don't mind the RNG. Most things that are in the chest end up being purchasable elsewhere, either via gold, gems, or claim tickets.

[skarpak.8594]

> @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:

> Anet will sidestep the laws through two technicalities.

>

> (1): The Gold to Gem conversion means that keys can be bought and used solely through in-game effort. This doesn't make chests gambling any more than anything else in the game.

> (2): When you open a chest, you're getting a statuette with some additional bonus items. This constitutes, at the minimum, a guaranteed purchase. It doesn't count as gambling because of this.

 

i don't see how this is a sidestep, granted, i am not living in the US and did not read what they are planning at all.

 

my thoughts about this are:

 

gems are not getting generated by nothing. all gems (apart from the initial pool 2012) are only getting generated by players. you can ofc pay gold for them, but someone else has to buy them first so they get into the pool via gems to gold conversion. this was already confirmed by a dev back then, sources can be found on the wiki.

the only gems getting into the game which are not directly paid for, are those from achievements. on the other hand, you have to buy the game at a certain point, so you even bought those. so in the end: only anet giveaways are gems which aren't "paid" by the user.

what does that mean: for every gem in the pool anet saw already money on their bank account. the only things users are doing is exchange them via anet as middleman & gem generator at the same time.

 

when it comes to sellable shop items on the TP which come from RNG igshop boxes: they are ALL also usergenerated. apart from the few achievements & weekly keys (which not everyone is doing) the GROS of skins you can buy on the TP from another player are already paid, just like the gems. someone had to generate this skin / color / black lion ticket / whatever through "gambling" with a lootbox.

and regarding how keys work with weekly quests and random drops: this can be seen as fixing the user to buy more. thats why there are black lion statuettes. "i will get this at some point i just have to gamble more, maybe iget lucky and can use them for something else".

 

now i don't know how your laws (will) look like, but this whole practice seems just like to disguise the whole system so the gros of the users (and maybe politicans) do not directly understand it how it works and how anet makes money. but if that law is (or will) not covering something like this, then its pretty bad.

 

 

[otto.5684]

> @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:

> Anet will sidestep the laws through two technicalities.

>

> (1): The Gold to Gem conversion means that keys can be bought and used solely through in-game effort. This doesn't make chests gambling any more than anything else in the game.

> (2): When you open a chest, you're getting a statuette with some additional bonus items. This constitutes, at the minimum, a guaranteed purchase. It doesn't count as gambling because of this.

 

Legally, this is on a very shaky ground. I can easily point out that even that these two factors exist, it does not negate the value of what you get is lower than what you put in. Also, the effort to farm the gold is substantially high that without putting significant effort, you cannot realistically afford the boxes. Ultimately, it is substance over form. Is the objective of RNG in the boxes is to get people to purchase more of them, which is available to do through actual money? Would that make people addicted to gambling and/or people with mental sickness more vulnerable? Yes and yes. Then the game should be flagged as 18+ or remove the RNG entirely.

[Teratus.2859]

> @"Lan Deathrider.5910" said:

> > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:

> > Anet will sidestep the laws through two technicalities.

> >

> > (1): The Gold to Gem conversion means that keys can be bought and used solely through in-game effort. This doesn't make chests gambling any more than anything else in the game.

> > (2): When you open a chest, you're getting a statuette with some additional bonus items. This constitutes, at the minimum, a guaranteed purchase. It doesn't count as gambling because of this.

>

> I'll add 3) Keys are a reward at lvl 10, 40 and 60. I've also gotten them from killing other players in WvW.

>

> This is something you NEVER have to use real world money on if you do not want to. If anything they'll just remove the keys from the EU store and keep them elsewhere.

>

> Frankly I don't mind the RNG. Most things that are in the chest end up being purchasable elsewhere, either via gold, gems, or claim tickets.

 

If they just removed them like that i'd expect a backlash from players who would start demanding droprates on random keys and BLC rewards be improved to counter the fact they can't buy keys anymore.

Or at the very least rewards in the chests be made tradable on the TP so people can obtain them via gold.. which would make cash to gem to gold conversion just another method of getting around the law XD

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

> @"Teratus.2859" said:

> > @"Lan Deathrider.5910" said:

> > > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:

> > > Anet will sidestep the laws through two technicalities.

> > >

> > > (1): The Gold to Gem conversion means that keys can be bought and used solely through in-game effort. This doesn't make chests gambling any more than anything else in the game.

> > > (2): When you open a chest, you're getting a statuette with some additional bonus items. This constitutes, at the minimum, a guaranteed purchase. It doesn't count as gambling because of this.

> >

> > I'll add 3) Keys are a reward at lvl 10, 40 and 60. I've also gotten them from killing other players in WvW.

> >

> > This is something you NEVER have to use real world money on if you do not want to. If anything they'll just remove the keys from the EU store and keep them elsewhere.

> >

> > Frankly I don't mind the RNG. Most things that are in the chest end up being purchasable elsewhere, either via gold, gems, or claim tickets.

>

> If they just removed them like that i'd expect a backlash from players who would start demanding droprates on random keys and BLC rewards be improved to counter the fact they can't buy keys anymore.

> Or at the very least rewards in the chests be made tradable on the TP so people can obtain them via gold.. which would make cash to gem to gold conversion just another method of getting around the law XD

 

Well no. Things that are in the chest eventually become obtainable via other means. And the law is about gambling, so if these things were obtainable via gold, then the Cash->gem->gold conversion to get the item that way is no longer gambling and does not skirt that law.

[Teratus.2859]

> @"Lan Deathrider.5910" said:

> > @"Teratus.2859" said:

> > > @"Lan Deathrider.5910" said:

> > > > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:

> > > > Anet will sidestep the laws through two technicalities.

> > > >

> > > > (1): The Gold to Gem conversion means that keys can be bought and used solely through in-game effort. This doesn't make chests gambling any more than anything else in the game.

> > > > (2): When you open a chest, you're getting a statuette with some additional bonus items. This constitutes, at the minimum, a guaranteed purchase. It doesn't count as gambling because of this.

> > >

> > > I'll add 3) Keys are a reward at lvl 10, 40 and 60. I've also gotten them from killing other players in WvW.

> > >

> > > This is something you NEVER have to use real world money on if you do not want to. If anything they'll just remove the keys from the EU store and keep them elsewhere.

> > >

> > > Frankly I don't mind the RNG. Most things that are in the chest end up being purchasable elsewhere, either via gold, gems, or claim tickets.

> >

> > If they just removed them like that i'd expect a backlash from players who would start demanding droprates on random keys and BLC rewards be improved to counter the fact they can't buy keys anymore.

> > Or at the very least rewards in the chests be made tradable on the TP so people can obtain them via gold.. which would make cash to gem to gold conversion just another method of getting around the law XD

>

> Well no. Things that are in the chest eventually become obtainable via other means. And the law is about gambling, so if these things were obtainable via gold, then the Cash->gem->gold conversion to get the item that way is no longer gambling and does not skirt that law.

 

Not directly no, however someone had to first gamble to get said item to put it on the TP in the first place.. so that factor would contribute to the items price point as well due to availablity vs desireability.

That would mean that RNG based BLC rewards would likely end up being significantly higher priced than most other items of the same type.

 

In short.. players would still be getting "exploited" to use the word others use here.. only now it's not by Anet it's by other players instead.. but Anet would still be the one benefitting from all the cash purchases.. maybe even more so than they currently are.

 

2000 gem mount skisn for example in gem to gold is about 478g

So 2000 gem skins obtained through BLC and put on the trading post would likely go for around 450-470g on average.

Trihorn Raptor 1600 gems in gold is 380g

 

Exclusive BLC skins like the current wings I expect would likely be in a similar ballpark to those gold prices.. possible even more.

Plus there's always gonna be those players who obtain one and think.. cha ching!! goldmine!! and throw it on the TP for like 1000 gold..

1k gold at this point costing around 4,240 gems to convert.. which is a little over 50 euros.. >.<

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

> @"Teratus.2859" said:

> > @"Lan Deathrider.5910" said:

> > > @"Teratus.2859" said:

> > > > @"Lan Deathrider.5910" said:

> > > > > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:

> > > > > Anet will sidestep the laws through two technicalities.

> > > > >

> > > > > (1): The Gold to Gem conversion means that keys can be bought and used solely through in-game effort. This doesn't make chests gambling any more than anything else in the game.

> > > > > (2): When you open a chest, you're getting a statuette with some additional bonus items. This constitutes, at the minimum, a guaranteed purchase. It doesn't count as gambling because of this.

> > > >

> > > > I'll add 3) Keys are a reward at lvl 10, 40 and 60. I've also gotten them from killing other players in WvW.

> > > >

> > > > This is something you NEVER have to use real world money on if you do not want to. If anything they'll just remove the keys from the EU store and keep them elsewhere.

> > > >

> > > > Frankly I don't mind the RNG. Most things that are in the chest end up being purchasable elsewhere, either via gold, gems, or claim tickets.

> > >

> > > If they just removed them like that i'd expect a backlash from players who would start demanding droprates on random keys and BLC rewards be improved to counter the fact they can't buy keys anymore.

> > > Or at the very least rewards in the chests be made tradable on the TP so people can obtain them via gold.. which would make cash to gem to gold conversion just another method of getting around the law XD

> >

> > Well no. Things that are in the chest eventually become obtainable via other means. And the law is about gambling, so if these things were obtainable via gold, then the Cash->gem->gold conversion to get the item that way is no longer gambling and does not skirt that law.

>

> Not directly no, however someone had to first gamble to get said item to put it on the TP in the first place.. so that factor would contribute to the items price point as well due to availablity vs desireability.

> That would mean that RNG based BLC rewards would likely end up being significantly higher priced than most other items of the same type.

>

> In short.. players would still be getting "exploited" to use the word others use here.. only now it's not by Anet it's by other players instead.. but Anet would still be the one benefitting from all the cash purchases.. maybe even more so than they currently are.

>

> 2000 gem mount skisn for example in gem to gold is about 478g

> So 2000 gem skins obtained through BLC and put on the trading post would likely go for around 450-470g on average.

> Trihorn Raptor 1600 gems in gold is 380g

>

> Exclusive BLC skins like the current wings I expect would likely be in a similar ballpark to those gold prices.. possible even more.

> Plus there's always gonna be those players who obtain one and think.. cha kitten!! goldmine!! and throw it on the TP for like 1000 gold..

> 1k gold at this point costing around 4,240 gems to convert.. which is a little over 50 euros.. >.<

 

But you can get the gold in game for that kind of thing. That and ocne something is on the TP its no longer a gamble.

[Teratus.2859]

> @"Lan Deathrider.5910" said:

> > @"Teratus.2859" said:

> > > @"Lan Deathrider.5910" said:

> > > > @"Teratus.2859" said:

> > > > > @"Lan Deathrider.5910" said:

> > > > > > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:

> > > > > > Anet will sidestep the laws through two technicalities.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > (1): The Gold to Gem conversion means that keys can be bought and used solely through in-game effort. This doesn't make chests gambling any more than anything else in the game.

> > > > > > (2): When you open a chest, you're getting a statuette with some additional bonus items. This constitutes, at the minimum, a guaranteed purchase. It doesn't count as gambling because of this.

> > > > >

> > > > > I'll add 3) Keys are a reward at lvl 10, 40 and 60. I've also gotten them from killing other players in WvW.

> > > > >

> > > > > This is something you NEVER have to use real world money on if you do not want to. If anything they'll just remove the keys from the EU store and keep them elsewhere.

> > > > >

> > > > > Frankly I don't mind the RNG. Most things that are in the chest end up being purchasable elsewhere, either via gold, gems, or claim tickets.

> > > >

> > > > If they just removed them like that i'd expect a backlash from players who would start demanding droprates on random keys and BLC rewards be improved to counter the fact they can't buy keys anymore.

> > > > Or at the very least rewards in the chests be made tradable on the TP so people can obtain them via gold.. which would make cash to gem to gold conversion just another method of getting around the law XD

> > >

> > > Well no. Things that are in the chest eventually become obtainable via other means. And the law is about gambling, so if these things were obtainable via gold, then the Cash->gem->gold conversion to get the item that way is no longer gambling and does not skirt that law.

> >

> > Not directly no, however someone had to first gamble to get said item to put it on the TP in the first place.. so that factor would contribute to the items price point as well due to availablity vs desireability.

> > That would mean that RNG based BLC rewards would likely end up being significantly higher priced than most other items of the same type.

> >

> > In short.. players would still be getting "exploited" to use the word others use here.. only now it's not by Anet it's by other players instead.. but Anet would still be the one benefitting from all the cash purchases.. maybe even more so than they currently are.

> >

> > 2000 gem mount skisn for example in gem to gold is about 478g

> > So 2000 gem skins obtained through BLC and put on the trading post would likely go for around 450-470g on average.

> > Trihorn Raptor 1600 gems in gold is 380g

> >

> > Exclusive BLC skins like the current wings I expect would likely be in a similar ballpark to those gold prices.. possible even more.

> > Plus there's always gonna be those players who obtain one and think.. cha kitten!! goldmine!! and throw it on the TP for like 1000 gold..

> > 1k gold at this point costing around 4,240 gems to convert.. which is a little over 50 euros.. >.<

>

> But you can get the gold in game for that kind of thing. That and ocne something is on the TP its no longer a gamble.

 

Aye you can, as you can with Black Lion Keys too which is a big part of my defense argument :)

I'd actually argue it's quicker and easier to farm the keys too than it is to farm the gold.

 

Personally i've always struggled farming gold in Gw2, unlucky drop rates for exotics and stuff and Ecto gambling has almost never paid out for me.

Making and selling Legends is about the only big payouts i've ever had in gw2 and that is a long process for me as well.

I don't have the mindset and patience for general farming like most do.

Few hours a week for 3 free keys though is very easy to maintain even when im taking breaks from the game.

 

 

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

> @"Teratus.2859" said:

> > @"Lan Deathrider.5910" said:

> > > @"Teratus.2859" said:

> > > > @"Lan Deathrider.5910" said:

> > > > > @"Teratus.2859" said:

> > > > > > @"Lan Deathrider.5910" said:

> > > > > > > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:

> > > > > > > Anet will sidestep the laws through two technicalities.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > (1): The Gold to Gem conversion means that keys can be bought and used solely through in-game effort. This doesn't make chests gambling any more than anything else in the game.

> > > > > > > (2): When you open a chest, you're getting a statuette with some additional bonus items. This constitutes, at the minimum, a guaranteed purchase. It doesn't count as gambling because of this.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I'll add 3) Keys are a reward at lvl 10, 40 and 60. I've also gotten them from killing other players in WvW.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > This is something you NEVER have to use real world money on if you do not want to. If anything they'll just remove the keys from the EU store and keep them elsewhere.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Frankly I don't mind the RNG. Most things that are in the chest end up being purchasable elsewhere, either via gold, gems, or claim tickets.

> > > > >

> > > > > If they just removed them like that i'd expect a backlash from players who would start demanding droprates on random keys and BLC rewards be improved to counter the fact they can't buy keys anymore.

> > > > > Or at the very least rewards in the chests be made tradable on the TP so people can obtain them via gold.. which would make cash to gem to gold conversion just another method of getting around the law XD

> > > >

> > > > Well no. Things that are in the chest eventually become obtainable via other means. And the law is about gambling, so if these things were obtainable via gold, then the Cash->gem->gold conversion to get the item that way is no longer gambling and does not skirt that law.

> > >

> > > Not directly no, however someone had to first gamble to get said item to put it on the TP in the first place.. so that factor would contribute to the items price point as well due to availablity vs desireability.

> > > That would mean that RNG based BLC rewards would likely end up being significantly higher priced than most other items of the same type.

> > >

> > > In short.. players would still be getting "exploited" to use the word others use here.. only now it's not by Anet it's by other players instead.. but Anet would still be the one benefitting from all the cash purchases.. maybe even more so than they currently are.

> > >

> > > 2000 gem mount skisn for example in gem to gold is about 478g

> > > So 2000 gem skins obtained through BLC and put on the trading post would likely go for around 450-470g on average.

> > > Trihorn Raptor 1600 gems in gold is 380g

> > >

> > > Exclusive BLC skins like the current wings I expect would likely be in a similar ballpark to those gold prices.. possible even more.

> > > Plus there's always gonna be those players who obtain one and think.. cha kitten!! goldmine!! and throw it on the TP for like 1000 gold..

> > > 1k gold at this point costing around 4,240 gems to convert.. which is a little over 50 euros.. >.<

> >

> > But you can get the gold in game for that kind of thing. That and ocne something is on the TP its no longer a gamble.

>

> Aye you can, as you can with Black Lion Keys too which is a big part of my defense argument :)

> I'd actually argue it's quicker and easier to farm the keys too than it is to farm the gold.

You are not incorrect.

> Personally i've always struggled farming gold in Gw2, unlucky drop rates for exotics and stuff and Ecto gambling has almost never paid out for me.

FotM. You can get around 50g for every T4+CM set you do.

> Making and selling Legends is about the only big payouts i've ever had in gw2 and that is a long process for me as well.

Sell your spirit shards.

> I don't have the mindset and patience for general farming like most do.

Credit card then. I've done that a few times. "F*ck this, here is $10 Anet". That and it gives them more money to develop the game.

> Few hours a week for 3 free keys though is very easy to maintain even when im taking breaks from the game.

Which is again why I think Anet would be able to still have Loot boxes and keys for sale. You can get them all in game without spending RL money. There IS a guaranteed loot drop that allows you to accrue tickets over time to buy the things you missed out on, and several of the drops eventually make it out of the chest for purchase via various means anyway.

 

 

[skarpak.8594]

> @"Lan Deathrider.5910" said:

> Well no. Things that are in the chest eventually become obtainable via other means. And the law is about gambling, so if these things were obtainable via gold, then the Cash->gem->gold conversion to get the item that way is no longer gambling and does not skirt that law.

 

its still gambling. in the situation that you bought something with gold simply means you were not the one who gambled...someone else did, simply to generate the item and put it on TP.

in that case the law simply does not affect the situation at all BUT still the situation of SOMEONE ELSE.

 

if i gamble and win a house and someone else pays me 250k for that house then ofc he didn't gamble. doesn't change the fact at all that i had to gamble to aquire it in the first place....and that is the nature of lootboxes in gw2. without anyone gambling with the box, no item would ever find their way into the economy.

 

..."free keys blah blah blah". do you know what "hooking people on smt" is? like here, have something for free, but you need to buy / gamble at least 10 times to get something good out of it? i think that is covered by law, isn't it?

 

regarding gold to gems, i will repeat myself from my post before: the gems in this pool are already paid by others and only generated if people actually buy gems and put them into the pool. thats why anet doesn't care about who bought the gems and who simply puts in gold. they saw the money for it already anyway.

 

 

[Zoid.2568]

It has always been gambling.

[Teratus.2859]

> @"Lan Deathrider.5910" said:

> > @"Teratus.2859" said:

> > Aye you can, as you can with Black Lion Keys too which is a big part of my defense argument :)

> > I'd actually argue it's quicker and easier to farm the keys too than it is to farm the gold.

> You are not incorrect.

 

Aye, I would very much be in agreement with a lot more people here if this wasn't possible in Gw2.

I highly recommend people start farming keys this way as well if they can, tomes of knowledge are hardly difficult to come by either.

 

At present i've got 80 Writes of Exp and 372 tomes of knowledge from just casual playing mostly.

On top of that I have 8 lvl 20 exp scrolls, 5 lvl 30 exp scrolls, 4 lvl 40, 6 lvl 50 and 4 lvl 60 scrolls all from birthdays.

It'll be a good while before I run out of stuff to use for keyfarming and I expect a good number of people have held on to that stuff too and never used it.

 

> > Personally i've always struggled farming gold in Gw2, unlucky drop rates for exotics and stuff and Ecto gambling has almost never paid out for me.

> FotM. You can get around 50g for every T4+CM set you do.

 

It's been a long time since I ran fractals t4 or CM's

Not everyone can get into them though so this gold method doesn't apply to everyone.

 

> > Making and selling Legends is about the only big payouts i've ever had in gw2 and that is a long process for me as well.

> Sell your spirit shards.

 

Knowing my luck i'll sell them and then find out I need them for something else xD

I could sell a few though I do have a lot of them.

 

> > I don't have the mindset and patience for general farming like most do.

> Credit card then. I've done that a few times. "F*ck this, here is $10 Anet". That and it gives them more money to develop the game.

 

I rarely ever buy gems for gold, but I do throw 10 euros at Anet from time to time to buy something cool in the gemstore :)

I don't mind supporting the game in this way, certainly a hell of a lot better than being forced to pay a subfee or have my account takena way if I don't.

 

> > Few hours a week for 3 free keys though is very easy to maintain even when im taking breaks from the game.

> Which is again why I think Anet would be able to still have Loot boxes and keys for sale. You can get them all in game without spending RL money. There IS a guaranteed loot drop that allows you to accrue tickets over time to buy the things you missed out on, and several of the drops eventually make it out of the chest for purchase via various means anyway.

>

 

Yeah, I do wish prices were a little lower on the statuettes though.. some of them are pretty pricy and usually require a lot of chests opened to get enough of them for the things you want.

 

[Thornwolf.9721]

Maybe make good expansions with worth while content? Earn your pay-check. Really I don't think its a big deal that they are cracking down on the predatory nature of the loot-box/in-game cash shop. Most games come out half baked and broken beyond beliefe but riddled with ways to spend your IRL money. Guild wars 2 is no exception as both expansions were small, and riddled with problems but they still demanded (for HoT) the cost of a full price game and for PoF around 40-bucks neither one in my mind was worth that level of payment. The issues both provided were WAAAAY too large, and now we are in a time when precursors are added to BL-chests as a potential reward ? Nah I think they need to start making worthwhile content, rather than re-skins of the same thing every week on the trading post. Make us WANT to give you the money not try and squeeze it out of us.

 

I honestly haven't spent money on the game for about a year now (Converted gold to gems, to get my wolf sword. ) Because Nothing they've made has made me remotely interested? Here are ways they could do the "earning" of money legitamentally in ways I think would be beneficial.

 

1. Separate the Elite specs from expansions, make E-spec packs that can release more readily so that they can be more accessible and thus fresh content can in theory be pumped into the game on a more readily available cadence. We all know that E-specs often steal the show for expansions.

2. Give Expansions something bigger than E-specs to provide, thus making them lucrative while also keeping the door open for other content down the road.

3. Maybe more interesting mount skins? Ones that are unique and not same old, same old? For example the Stag for the jackle was a skin that changed the entire look and wasn't just more of the same.. More of those. (Dolyak/mammoth for warclaw?)

4. Offer more character customization options for the other races to get those Total make over kits selling again.

5. Freak'n more quality of life stuff that you can get, such as maybe more bank space (keep that going) or maybe bag space becomes account based rather than character? This would make people want to buy more bag space more often because ALL of their characters would bennefit from it?

6. An OPTIONAL sub that offers you all the bag/bank space for as long as you pay it, and an allowance of 1000 gems a month much like ESO does.

[Donutdude.9582]

> @"Svetli.4276" said:

> What will happen to gw2 when the new law come in power ?

> everything in the game is some sort of loot box or gambling system

 

The Black Lion Chests are a form of gambling. You have the capacity to spend real money to bet on a %-chance for obtaining items.

 

It will be interesting to see what happens as gambling in video games becomes more regulated.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

> @"skarpak.8594" said:

> > @"Lan Deathrider.5910" said:

> > Well no. Things that are in the chest eventually become obtainable via other means. And the law is about gambling, so if these things were obtainable via gold, then the Cash->gem->gold conversion to get the item that way is no longer gambling and does not skirt that law.

>

> its still gambling. in the situation that you bought something with gold simply means you were not the one who gambled...someone else did, simply to generate the item and put it on TP.

> in that case the law simply does not affect the situation at all BUT still the situation of SOMEONE ELSE.

>

> if i gamble and win a house and someone else pays me 250k for that house then ofc he didn't gamble. doesn't change the fact at all that i had to gamble to aquire it in the first place....and that is the nature of lootboxes in gw2. without anyone gambling with the box, no item would ever find their way into the economy.

>

> ..."free keys blah blah blah". do you know what "hooking people on smt" is? like here, have something for free, but you need to buy / gamble at least 10 times to get something good out of it? i think that is covered by law, isn't it?

>

> regarding gold to gems, i will repeat myself from my post before: the gems in this pool are already paid by others and only generated if people actually buy gems and put them into the pool. thats why anet doesn't care about who bought the gems and who simply puts in gold. they saw the money for it already anyway.

>

>

 

SOMEBODY attained it, whether it was gambling for the item directly or somebody just opening chests for fun with their key hoard is up for debate, but if there is a supply to purchase directly then that particular access is not gambling any more. Consider the item 'laundered' at that point. And as far as I understand the anti-loot box laws, they don't care about the purchased of items from others that received them via RNG boxes, as that is no longer gambling.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

> @"Teratus.2859" said:

> > @"Lan Deathrider.5910" said:

> > > @"Teratus.2859" said:

> > > Aye you can, as you can with Black Lion Keys too which is a big part of my defense argument :)

> > > I'd actually argue it's quicker and easier to farm the keys too than it is to farm the gold.

> > You are not incorrect.

>

> Aye, I would very much be in agreement with a lot more people here if this wasn't possible in Gw2.

> I highly recommend people start farming keys this way as well if they can, tomes of knowledge are hardly difficult to come by either.

>

> At present i've got 80 Writes of Exp and 372 tomes of knowledge from just casual playing mostly.

> On top of that I have 8 lvl 20 exp scrolls, 5 lvl 30 exp scrolls, 4 lvl 40, 6 lvl 50 and 4 lvl 60 scrolls all from birthdays.

> It'll be a good while before I run out of stuff to use for keyfarming and I expect a good number of people have held on to that stuff too and never used it.

Same, although I use the tomes for shards when I need them. I have zero qualms with occasionally giving Anet a few dollars for some keys to have fun opening chests with.

> > > Personally i've always struggled farming gold in Gw2, unlucky drop rates for exotics and stuff and Ecto gambling has almost never paid out for me.

> > FotM. You can get around 50g for every T4+CM set you do.

>

> It's been a long time since I ran fractals t4 or CM's

> Not everyone can get into them though so this gold method doesn't apply to everyone.

It doesn't take long to gear up and power through the Tiers though.

> > > Making and selling Legends is about the only big payouts i've ever had in gw2 and that is a long process for me as well.

> > Sell your spirit shards.

>

> Knowing my luck i'll sell them and then find out I need them for something else xD

> I could sell a few though I do have a lot of them.

Just pick a threshold to not go under, like 400 shards.

> > > I don't have the mindset and patience for general farming like most do.

> > Credit card then. I've done that a few times. "F*ck this, here is $10 Anet". That and it gives them more money to develop the game.

>

> I rarely ever buy gems for gold, but I do throw 10 euros at Anet from time to time to buy something cool in the gemstore :)

> I don't mind supporting the game in this way, certainly a hell of a lot better than being forced to pay a subfee or have my account takena way if I don't.

I have rarely thrown cash in to convert to gold, mostly just for the gems to get good deals. Either way I do it rarely enough that I don't mind giving them a chunk of change to support development.

> > > Few hours a week for 3 free keys though is very easy to maintain even when im taking breaks from the game.

> > Which is again why I think Anet would be able to still have Loot boxes and keys for sale. You can get them all in game without spending RL money. There IS a guaranteed loot drop that allows you to accrue tickets over time to buy the things you missed out on, and several of the drops eventually make it out of the chest for purchase via various means anyway.

> >

>

> Yeah, I do wish prices were a little lower on the statuettes though.. some of them are pretty pricy and usually require a lot of chests opened to get enough of them for the things you want.

Like with Legendary weapons its a long game viewpoint.

 

 

[skarpak.8594]

exactly, so the situation that someone can buy items on the trading post is not an argument which fits the whole discussion anyway and you can ignore this exact situation.

so the only situation you ever have to look at is:

 

someone opens rng boxes where items come out.

 

the law is not interested in other people buying items from someone. it just happens that some items are gamble exclusives. it also doesn't matter if they are exlusive or if they drop ingame. there is only 1 situation why that law is made anyway (or why they are looking into making one).

 

and yes, its gambling.

 

but if something happens and there will be a law against it there is one thing that will happen: all these items will not be generated anymore through gambling as this practice would be a violation of law.

that doesn't meant there won't be any rng to it when it comes to "dropping".

 

OR

 

the game will be simply made 18+ and boxes get a gamble warning.

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

Well, aren't I popular today? I'll keep it brief. I'm putting these two together, because they're basically the same point.

 

> @"Svarty.8019" said:

> Is that the selling point of the chest? Is that the reason you buy it? A statuette? Let me check the advert... no. That's not what it says.

 

> @"HardRider.2980" said:

> Actually the way they market and sell the loot boxes are actually gambling. As they always say x items now in the box.. go get em if you're lucky.

> Just because you get something as a basic doesn't mean it's not gambling compared to how to market it

 

Then they'll change the advertisements.

 

Look, you're arguing about the philosophy of gambling. That's all well and good, but very distinct from the law of gambling. When it comes to the law, all of those little minutia matter.

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"Lan Deathrider.5910" said:

> And as far as I understand the anti-loot box laws, they don't care about the purchased of items from others that received them via RNG boxes, as that is no longer gambling.

But they do care about those that _did_ obtain those items from lootboxes. As such, once said laws will go in, there _won't_ be any "others" that might sell those items anymore, because _only_ non-rng avenues of gemshop sales of those items will remain.

[IndigoSundown.5419]

> @"Teratus.2859" said:

> > @"IndigoSundown.5419" said:

> > > @"Teratus.2859" said:

> > > What we're arguing about is whether or not Gw2's lootboxes are "predatory" and "unfair" that's a big difference.

> >

> In those cases yes, no dispute that Anet benefits.

> However there are also other methods of obtaining keys without the need for gold or gems.. cutting real world money out of the process entirely.

> That's the biggest contributing factor to my defense argument and I don't think that can be overlooked when it comes to branding the Black Lion Chests/Keys as predatory.

>

> To my knowledge this is a rarety in the lootbox market, I don't believe most games allow you to earn in game lootboxes.. let alone give you the ability to farm them like Gw2 does.

>

> - snip

 

The truth is that the people who are only using free keys are simply _not_ the target of GW2 loot boxes. The question to ask is, "Is ANet selling keys to make money, or to put in a feature whereby players can en masse sidestep gem purchases to get the enticements put into them?" To me, people who use the loophole are just free advertising targeted at those who don't, won't or can't.

 

> > @"IndigoSundown.5419" said:

> > The second trick is the big whammy, though. That's the conscious design choice to make use of some peoples' tendency to believe the gambler's fallacy, sunk cost fallacy, or both.

>

> Unfortunately there isn't much public data about this.. least not to my knowledge.

> I have seen the occasional angry forum post from people who spent X amount of money on keys and didn't get what they wanted and feel cheated.. but that sort of thing isn't that common from what I can see.

 

I remember an ANet dev on the old forums stating that ~5% of players post on forums. I agree that we don't know how many people are spending more money on keys than they would if they could buy the item they want at a set price. I believe, though, that if ANet were not making more revenue selling keys than they would if they sold the items in the chests straight up, then they would not be selling them.

 

I think it's fair to say at this point that loot boxes are a controversial topic. It would be good PR for ANet to stop using them, thereby distinguishing themselves from other companies. Absent the possibility they are making substantial revenue from them, there would be no reason to keep them around. Any desire to cater to those who want the thrill of "surprise mechanics" (and wasn't that a mealy-mouthed sidestep) could be handled via mini-games like ecto gambling in the casino.

 

To be fair, though, I don't feel as much of a _negative charge_ over the word predatory as some seem to. Business as a whole is rife with tactics designed to get people to part with their money. Sometimes, the tactics are designed to get people to spend more money than they want to or ought to, and are thus _by definition_ predatory. That's life. To me, loot boxes are designed to do just that, ergo they are predatory by definition. To me, the fact that some people can take an alternate path to get _the current thing_ is irrelevant because they are not the ones being targeted. Now, if I believed that no-one was being taken advantage of, then I'd agree that the GW2 BLC's are not predatory. I find it very hard to believe that, though.

 

> For the most part the biggest contributors to a lot of gemstore and BLC stuff are the so called "Whales"

> - snip

> Ultimately personal responsibility will always be the only effective means of avoiding these problems.. or in the case of children, parents doing a better job at watching what their kids do online.

 

I'm all for personal responsibility, and prefer less government regulation to more. However, greed is a human thing, and some businesses will not regulate themselves. That's why some government regulation can be desirable. I'm not sure that loot boxes are enough of an issue to warrant that, though I would be in favor of businesses focusing more on making money by producing a good product than in tricking people out of money for virtual bling.

 

Whether there will be a mass movement to ban loot boxes or not remains to be seen. After all, politicians have other, more immediate, axes to grind right now. If it does happen, though, I don't know whether BLC's will be affected or not because of ANet's attempts with statuettes and "free" keys to distinguish them. To be honest, I am unaffected by loot boxes because I spend neither money nor gold to get keys. I suppose I might benefit if they went away and ANet chose to offer those types of items in other ways that I would feel OK about patronizing. Without some government regulation, though, that is not going to happen.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"Lan Deathrider.5910" said:

> > And as far as I understand the anti-loot box laws, they don't care about the purchased of items from others that received them via RNG boxes, as that is no longer gambling.

> But they do care about those that _did_ obtain those items from lootboxes. As such, once said laws will go in, there _won't_ be any "others" that might sell those items anymore, because _only_ non-rng avenues of gemshop sales of those items will remain.

 

Yes, but those items can come from places without such laws correct? So they will be available on the TP, and those that are account bound will either be in the gem store for +1600 gems, or come up in the BLT merchants for claim tickets, which are obtained via at most from 50 BL chest opened with keys that may or may not be purchased with real world money. Anet has several ways around these laws, their loot boxes are very different in nature to others from less reputable game companies.