Down state skills need to be thought over. No more teleport, invulnerability, or just plain get up

[archmagus.7249]

Seriously. There's nothing more infuriating than finishing off an opponent only to have them turn invulnerable and run inside the tower you're attacking. Then they get back up on their own, heal, and proceed to attack you. Skills which need to be replaced are ones which

-turn the player invulnerable

-allow the player to move

-steal health from players without cooldown.

 

Control effects and are totally fine (that's what Blind and stability are for) as is stealth (revealed is a thing, sorry thieves)

[steki.1478]

Why is mesmer oneshoting you with downed 3, and ranger healing itself completely with skill 3 fine? You can't even interrupt the pet.

 

Let's be real, every class except engi and rev has at least one strong downed skill. I can understand more defensive skills on classes with 11k health, the rest doesnt really make sense.

[archmagus.7249]

> @"steki.1478" said:

> Why is mesmer oneshoting you with downed 3, and ranger healing itself completely with skill 3 fine? You can't even interrupt the pet.

>

> Let's be real, every class except engi and rev has at least one strong downed skill. I can understand more defensive skills on classes with 11k health, the rest doesnt really make sense.

 

I've had no problems with mesmer in the down state killing me, just teleproting. Besides, that's what blind is for. The pet can be countered by knocking back the ranger, interrupting the res, and sending the skill on cooldown.

[Fueki.4753]

Nerf down state and reviving, but don't forget to also nerf safe stomping.

[archmagus.7249]

> @"Fueki.4753" said:

> Nerf down state and reviving, but don't forget to also nerf safe stomping.

 

By that I'm assuming you're referring to elixir s? Ever since the change where it effectively gives you resistance, I haven't seen that many engineers use it for that. They would rather save it for avoiding condition burst.

 

If not then what, stability? That's the only other thing that could be "safe stomp"

[Fueki.4753]

> @"archmagus.7249" said:

> > @"Fueki.4753" said:

> > Nerf down state and reviving, but don't forget to also nerf safe stomping.

>

> By that I'm assuming you're referring to elixir s? Ever since the change where it effectively gives you resistance, I haven't seen that many engineers use it for that. They would rather save it for avoiding condition burst.

>

> If not then what, stability? That's the only other thing that could be "safe stomp"

 

Teleporting back and forth while channelin, Stealth, Elixir and Stability are all Safe stomps.

Teleporting and Elixir S could easily be prevented by changing the channel, so people can't use instant skills during the stomp.

Stealth stomps could be prevented by having the channel cause reveal or simply strip stealth.

[steki.1478]

> @"archmagus.7249" said:

> > @"steki.1478" said:

> > Why is mesmer oneshoting you with downed 3, and ranger healing itself completely with skill 3 fine? You can't even interrupt the pet.

> >

> > Let's be real, every class except engi and rev has at least one strong downed skill. I can understand more defensive skills on classes with 11k health, the rest doesnt really make sense.

>

> I've had no problems with mesmer in the down state killing me, just teleproting. Besides, that's what blind is for. The pet can be countered by knocking back the ranger, interrupting the res, and sending the skill on cooldown.

 

Yes because everyone can blind the phantasm while stomping/damaging mesmer. Also interrupting the pet does nothing, it just runs back to rez again because it's a command skill, which doesn't change unless the player gives another command, which he won't because rez is a lot stronger.

[Sobx.1758]

> @"archmagus.7249" said:

> Control effects and are totally fine (that's what Blind and stability are for) as is stealth (revealed is a thing, sorry thieves)

 

Explain to me why would you even need revealed for a downed stealth no tp thief? :D

 

Also all I see in this thread is "control effects are totally fine (because I play engineer and that's exactly what both of my skills do)".

Delete classes, specs and all weapons, because if someone can do anything I can't, it's automatically broken and unfair! :sleeping:

[archmagus.7249]

> @"Fueki.4753" said:

> > @"archmagus.7249" said:

> > > @"Fueki.4753" said:

> > > Nerf down state and reviving, but don't forget to also nerf safe stomping.

> >

> > By that I'm assuming you're referring to elixir s? Ever since the change where it effectively gives you resistance, I haven't seen that many engineers use it for that. They would rather save it for avoiding condition burst.

> >

> > If not then what, stability? That's the only other thing that could be "safe stomp"

>

> Teleporting back and forth while channelin, Stealth, Elixir and Stability are all Safe stomps.

> Teleporting and Elixir S could easily be prevented by changing the channel, so people can't use instant skills during the stomp.

> Stealth stomps could be prevented by having the channel cause reveal or simply strip stealth.

 

Elixir s prevents you from using any skills whatsoever during the duration. The only thing you can do is to res.

[Sobx.1758]

> @"archmagus.7249" said:

> > @"Fueki.4753" said:

> > > @"archmagus.7249" said:

> > > > @"Fueki.4753" said:

> > > > Nerf down state and reviving, but don't forget to also nerf safe stomping.

> > >

> > > By that I'm assuming you're referring to elixir s? Ever since the change where it effectively gives you resistance, I haven't seen that many engineers use it for that. They would rather save it for avoiding condition burst.

> > >

> > > If not then what, stability? That's the only other thing that could be "safe stomp"

> >

> > Teleporting back and forth while channelin, Stealth, Elixir and Stability are all Safe stomps.

> > Teleporting and Elixir S could easily be prevented by changing the channel, so people can't use instant skills during the stomp.

> > Stealth stomps could be prevented by having the channel cause reveal or simply strip stealth.

>

> Elixir s prevents you from using any skills whatsoever during the duration. The only thing you can do is to res.

 

Locks all skill slots, including the tool belt.

This skill can be used while finishing opponents.

[archmagus.7249]

> @"Sobx.1758" said:

> > @"archmagus.7249" said:

> > > @"Fueki.4753" said:

> > > > @"archmagus.7249" said:

> > > > > @"Fueki.4753" said:

> > > > > Nerf down state and reviving, but don't forget to also nerf safe stomping.

> > > >

> > > > By that I'm assuming you're referring to elixir s? Ever since the change where it effectively gives you resistance, I haven't seen that many engineers use it for that. They would rather save it for avoiding condition burst.

> > > >

> > > > If not then what, stability? That's the only other thing that could be "safe stomp"

> > >

> > > Teleporting back and forth while channelin, Stealth, Elixir and Stability are all Safe stomps.

> > > Teleporting and Elixir S could easily be prevented by changing the channel, so people can't use instant skills during the stomp.

> > > Stealth stomps could be prevented by having the channel cause reveal or simply strip stealth.

> >

> > Elixir s prevents you from using any skills whatsoever during the duration. The only thing you can do is to res.

>

> Locks all skill slots, including the tool belt.

> This skill can be used while finishing opponents.

 

res and finish, to clarify. And the duration isn't long enough if they are less than 50% downed health, and/or are poisoned; even with HGH.

[Sobx.1758]

> @"archmagus.7249" said:

> > @"Sobx.1758" said:

> > > @"archmagus.7249" said:

> > > > @"Fueki.4753" said:

> > > > > @"archmagus.7249" said:

> > > > > > @"Fueki.4753" said:

> > > > > > Nerf down state and reviving, but don't forget to also nerf safe stomping.

> > > > >

> > > > > By that I'm assuming you're referring to elixir s? Ever since the change where it effectively gives you resistance, I haven't seen that many engineers use it for that. They would rather save it for avoiding condition burst.

> > > > >

> > > > > If not then what, stability? That's the only other thing that could be "safe stomp"

> > > >

> > > > Teleporting back and forth while channelin, Stealth, Elixir and Stability are all Safe stomps.

> > > > Teleporting and Elixir S could easily be prevented by changing the channel, so people can't use instant skills during the stomp.

> > > > Stealth stomps could be prevented by having the channel cause reveal or simply strip stealth.

> > >

> > > Elixir s prevents you from using any skills whatsoever during the duration. The only thing you can do is to res.

> >

> > Locks all skill slots, including the tool belt.

> > This skill can be used while finishing opponents.

>

> res and finish, to clarify.

 

If that's what you really meant, then I don't understand how that answer was relevant to the post you were responding to, can you explain?

 

>And the duration isn't long enough if they are less than 50% downed health, and/or are poisoned; even with HGH.

 

Ye, ye, ye... The duration of downed mobility skills isn't "long enough" for pretty much anything either, so what's your problem with them?

 

Lets stop pretending that you care about some kind of "overal balance" -from where I'm sitting it really looks like you're playing strictly only engineer and all you're interested in is taking away most things "YOUR CLASS" can't do. But whatever engi can do is fine.

Duh, the person you were initially responding to complained about "safe stomps" as a whole*, but you went straight into defending elixir s. lul

 

 

*(I actually don't really have a problem with safe stomps, they mostly use important skills to execute them, which means they need to cripple themselves by holding onto them until the stomp)

[Sobx.1758]

> @"archmagus.7249" said:

> Seriously. There's nothing more infuriating than finishing off an opponent only to have them turn invulnerable and run inside the tower you're attacking. Then they get back up on their own, heal, and proceed to attack you.

 

Also there's pretty much one skill that can do this, the rest of your list is disconnected from this complaint. And if that really annoys you so much, then stop fighting with *that class* next to their friendly walls, then you won't have to be infuriated by them. Easy, you're welcome.

[ZDragon.3046]

> @"steki.1478" said:

> Why is mesmer oneshoting you with downed 3, and ranger healing itself completely with skill 3 fine? You can't even interrupt the pet.

>

 

First of all you can interrupt the pet just not all interrupts are super effective. Knockdowns, knock backs, and fears pretty much throw the pet out of the equation long enough that you could and certainly should be able to cleave the ranger down or stomp them. just dont expect something like thief headshot to do the trick.

 

As far as the mesmers rogue they ideally should be dead before they can even summon it if you let them live that long you might be doing something wrong. Their 2 skill aint exactly like thief or ele it does not buy them much time or move them very far in some cases you dont even need to cancel your stomp to still stomp them even if they used the skill. Secondly just dodge it if you see them use it or turn to face it always has a fixed spawn position behind the person they cast it on and it only does omega damage if it hits you in the back.

 

> Let's be real, every class except engi and rev has at least one strong downed skill. I can understand more defensive skills on classes with 11k health, the rest doesnt really make sense.

 

hmmm if we are actually be real lets break the kits down a bit more before just saying they are the weakest.

 

I personally do think the rev skill 3 is kinda bad but the auto skill is probably one of the strongest down state skills in the game just behind necromancers.

Its ideally decent damage with perma slow which makes it very anti cleave by nature and should you and someone else that cant instantly get up or have a pet heal them to full go down at the same time you pretty much win the down state race thanks to the slow.

Rev down state 2 skill is average comparable to every other downstate 2 cc skill its not good or bad. I actually might rate it good because it comes out much faster than alot of the other down state 2 cc skills that have that longer cast time / animation that tells people they are about to be cc'ed like necro, warrior, engi etc. Its kind of like rangers and gaurdians it comes out pretty darn quick.

 

Engi i can some what agree that both might not be all that good but it is the only profession that gets 2 cc downstate skills which in a way makes up for something should you get to use both. Its auto has a pretty good chance at applying things like heavy amounts of chill and weakness too so its not the worst auto ever but certainly not the best

 

**The Worst of each 1 2 and 3 imo**

When it comes down to who has the worst downstate auto my bet there is on ele. Its slower compared to every other profession in the game the damage is usually not that amazing despite being slower either and it really has no other mechanics going for it.

 

But in the case of not always being able to use skill 3 i would say the worst down state 2 skill goes to mesmer. Cause not only is it uncontrollable short ranged movement, the stealth effects often wear off at slightly different intervals from the clone it makes, and the real player has a marker over their head that says im right here its not even safe from normal stomps at times let alone safe stomps if it fails to move the real player far away from the original position.

 

In the case of who has the worst skill 3 i do agree that title belongs to Rev even though some times it can hit hard its just a big clunky and when you do manage to use it its some times it just fails to hit at all even if the person you want to hit is right ontop of you.

 

**The Best of each 1 2 and 3 imo**

The best downstate auto hands down goes to necro. Its rapid hit, heals mechanically, and is a great anti cleave deterrent now because that damage adds up fast enough (even after the downstate damage trait nerf) if you let them succ for too long. Also lets necro win most downstate trades against professions that cant just instantly getup.

 

Imo the strongest downstate 2 skill is ele and thief because it gives them controlled movement from the downstate which no one else has and pretty much eliminates safe stomps and can optionally be used to delay or deny cleave attempts.

 

Imo the strongest downstate 3 skill is Warrior and Ranger. Being able to instantly get up if you live long enough and keep fighting is probably the strongest downsate skill in the game even if you do die afterwards it also means foes cant leave you there to just bleed out which might take longer than trying to bandage eventually die.

Rangers down state 3 became much stronger with the damage nerfs because now the pets dont die as easily to cleave damage and can often out heal a single persons cleave damage enough to where it becomes dangerous to cleave the ranger for too long. It also auto wins most downstate matchups

 

 

I think every downstate kit has at least something good or unique going for it in some way or another. Overall though as much as it pains me to say it mesmer's kit actually might be the worst. even if they get to use skill 3 if a person dodges it they literally have nothing i guess on a condi build at least their autos get decent after a few seconds (if the person continues to use skills)