siren reef ? i don't get it why so hard ?

[Fueki.4753]

> @"Hannelore.8153" said:

> I wish people would just accept that this Fractal is harder than others

 

This is a trend that can be observed in all the "newer" fractals.

Shattered Observatory, Deepstone, Twilight Oasis and Siren's Reef all are substantially harder than everything that other ones.

And than we also have the reworks of Swampland, Molten Furnace and the Underwater one. All these reworks made the fractals harder than they used to be.

 

Before anyone quotes me, crying that none of these being actually hard, remember that these are **comparisons.**

Just because they aren't hard _for you,_ doesn't mean they aren't hard for others.

 

I have no hope for the Mountain Fractal to become anything near what I consider fair.

 

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

> @"zombyturtle.5980" said:

> > @"Zhaid Zhem.6508" said:

> > The main reason people wipe over and over is that they don't want to adapt. They have their build, c/p from a website or not, and they think as it's "optimal" for 99% of situations there is no reason it can't work on this one.

> > Or they ask the fb / ren to adapt but themselves they don't care. And they repeat ... I've seen it multiple time with my FB.

> > Honor/virtues : Stab shout + stab ground + wall + renewed focus, everybody looks safe until I can't loop stab or a wall or/and they start running everywhere, diving in water, unable to cleave mobs, cleanse their own conditions ... and i'm alone trying to save 4 lost members in the 4 corners of the maps against 40 mobs, daze, wind ...

> > Where sometimes I just run wall+stab ground and everything is fine, because the ren also help, the DH also has stab/reflect, the berserker whirld in trashmobs and clean the boat, etc.

> >

> > How hard is it for a DH to take the wall + the stab field + why not renewed focus ? Or even switch to Fb and spam F1 and F3. For Sb, the stab stance + bear stance + stance share ? Holo, the arena + cleave/aoes ? Weaver can switch to tempest too, for warhon / magnetic aura, rebound ...

> > How hard is it to kill mobs sometimes rather than search for the boss wittingly ignoring mobs and aoes.

> >

> > All classes can have useful utilities for the group : stab, reflect, cleanse, aoe/cleave, boonstrip ... You don't necessarily to change all your build, but do a part of the job with 1-2 skills or traits. You don't care to lose >30% of your personal DPS if everybody survive this encounter.

> > If you die over and over in t2-t3 of this fractal, because you don't know the mechanics, your group is a bit bad ... okai.

> > T4, there is no excuse; yes this is a L2P issue, but this is T4 fractals, not your personal stance story. Adapt, collaborate.

>

> I mean...if you are running meta comp the whole reason you take hfb is so your team does not have to adapt and lose their damage. I agree if you are wiping over and over they should swap 1 ultility to help but as long as the dps avoid the orange blow aoe and stand in the greens, firebrand alone can carry the entire rest of the group with no changes needed.

>

> This obviously differs for non meta groups however which will lack dps to phase properly. If you are running off meta though, a single scourge will solo carry just as hard as firebrand.

>

> Also why are you running so much stab. It doesnt block the wind attack. Reflect would be better surely. Ren can also basically solo carry this frac with perma ventari bubble, unless there are horrible instabs.

 

 

This is T4 fractals, not random dungeon you do with newbies or story instance. You should be ready; you should know what comps/builds work better than others for all fractals, you should have unlocked all skills a long time ago already, may be have differents weapons in inventory, differents classes with agony resistance ...

 

 

I have been there too :

"You're the dps, c/p this build, work your rotation

_Ah okai, I'm the DPS...

_Why didn't you take this skill here ?

_But I'm the dps ... "

"Ignore mobs, ignore mechanics, rush the boss

_Okai I rush the boss

_Why didn't you pull the mobs here ?

_But later you said to ignore them ... "

And it's frustrating. I have lived these times where I played classes because people told others to play theses classes but I had no idea why, nor how to adapt. Or you join groups with differents strats, with portals, Skips, no healer, 2 healers, no burst, etc and you don't learn or you forget the mechanics of the fractals, the potential of your class ...

I had scenario with players who were so blindfolded they really forgot how to read a comp, read the weakness, the needs etc and couldn't even change one skill

"War, why don't we have banners ?

_I can't, I am DPS war, i don't play banner"

"We should take more support here, we have trouble with instabilities.

_Ah no, I am meta, I have done this boss like that, it is written in the sacred website we don't have to change anything for this situation. Pray SC and Discretize 3 times a day."

Really ??????????????

 

No. You can adapt, you can change roles, specs, skills, you can relog, sacrifice some DPS, or some support if this allows your group to succeed.

Of course you don't need power brigade ascended food + portals+ shovels etc, of course the boss is harder than in other fractals, but if no one in your group is or has a DH in his characters, and so a FB (click on the third spec > FB instead of DH, done), if no one has a weaver, and so tempest, or Scourge, or revenant, a healer, a support, etc, with ~110 agony resistance, if you can't take 2 minutes to advise a strategy, skills, yeah you will have a lot of troubles, but you shouldn't be in T4.

 

Yes the fractal is harder than others. Yes, git gud ; don't rush headlong, blindfolded.

[zombyturtle.5980]

> @"Zhaid Zhem.6508" said:

> > @"zombyturtle.5980" said:

> > > @"Zhaid Zhem.6508" said:

> > > The main reason people wipe over and over is that they don't want to adapt. They have their build, c/p from a website or not, and they think as it's "optimal" for 99% of situations there is no reason it can't work on this one.

> > > Or they ask the fb / ren to adapt but themselves they don't care. And they repeat ... I've seen it multiple time with my FB.

> > > Honor/virtues : Stab shout + stab ground + wall + renewed focus, everybody looks safe until I can't loop stab or a wall or/and they start running everywhere, diving in water, unable to cleave mobs, cleanse their own conditions ... and i'm alone trying to save 4 lost members in the 4 corners of the maps against 40 mobs, daze, wind ...

> > > Where sometimes I just run wall+stab ground and everything is fine, because the ren also help, the DH also has stab/reflect, the berserker whirld in trashmobs and clean the boat, etc.

> > >

> > > How hard is it for a DH to take the wall + the stab field + why not renewed focus ? Or even switch to Fb and spam F1 and F3. For Sb, the stab stance + bear stance + stance share ? Holo, the arena + cleave/aoes ? Weaver can switch to tempest too, for warhon / magnetic aura, rebound ...

> > > How hard is it to kill mobs sometimes rather than search for the boss wittingly ignoring mobs and aoes.

> > >

> > > All classes can have useful utilities for the group : stab, reflect, cleanse, aoe/cleave, boonstrip ... You don't necessarily to change all your build, but do a part of the job with 1-2 skills or traits. You don't care to lose >30% of your personal DPS if everybody survive this encounter.

> > > If you die over and over in t2-t3 of this fractal, because you don't know the mechanics, your group is a bit bad ... okai.

> > > T4, there is no excuse; yes this is a L2P issue, but this is T4 fractals, not your personal stance story. Adapt, collaborate.

> >

> > I mean...if you are running meta comp the whole reason you take hfb is so your team does not have to adapt and lose their damage. I agree if you are wiping over and over they should swap 1 ultility to help but as long as the dps avoid the orange blow aoe and stand in the greens, firebrand alone can carry the entire rest of the group with no changes needed.

> >

> > This obviously differs for non meta groups however which will lack dps to phase properly. If you are running off meta though, a single scourge will solo carry just as hard as firebrand.

> >

> > Also why are you running so much stab. It doesnt block the wind attack. Reflect would be better surely. Ren can also basically solo carry this frac with perma ventari bubble, unless there are horrible instabs.

>

>

> This is T4 fractals, not random dungeon you do with newbies or story instance. You should be ready; you should know what comps/builds work better than others for all fractals, you should have unlocked all skills a long time ago already, may be have differents weapons in inventory, differents classes with agony resistance ...

>

>

> I have been there too :

> "You're the dps, c/p this build, work your rotation

> _Ah okai, I'm the DPS...

> _Why didn't you take this skill here ?

> _But I'm the dps ... "

> "Ignore mobs, ignore mechanics, rush the boss

> _Okai I rush the boss

> _Why didn't you pull the mobs here ?

> _But later you said to ignore them ... "

> And it's frustrating. I have lived these times where I played classes because people told others to play theses classes but I had no idea why, nor how to adapt. Or you join groups with differents strats, with portals, Skips, no healer, 2 healers, no burst, etc and you don't learn or you forget the mechanics of the fractals, the potential of your class ...

> I had scenario with players who were so blindfolded they really forgot how to read a comp, read the weakness, the needs etc and couldn't even change one skill

> "War, why don't we have banners ?

> _I can't, I am DPS war, i don't play banner"

> "We should take more support here, we have trouble with instabilities.

> _Ah no, I am meta, I have done this boss like that, it is written in the sacred website we don't have to change anything for this situation. Pray SC and Discretize 3 times a day."

> Really ??????????????

>

> No. You can adapt, you can change roles, specs, skills, you can relog, sacrifice some DPS, or some support if this allows your group to succeed.

> Of course you don't need power brigade ascended food + portals+ shovels etc, of course the boss is harder than in other fractals, but if no one in your group is or has a DH in his characters, and so a FB (click on the third spec > FB instead of DH, done), if no one has a weaver, and so tempest, or Scourge, or revenant, a healer, a support, etc, with ~110 agony resistance, if you can't take 2 minutes to advise a strategy, skills, yeah you will have a lot of troubles, but you shouldn't be in T4.

>

> Yes the fractal is harder than others. Yes, git gud ; don't rush headlong, blindfolded.

 

Yes.. I agreed with you that if your group is struggling, a dps should swap utilities. However, assuming all the dps can avoid orange aoes the HFB can solo carry the rest of the fractal just with mass projectile reflect/destruction and some condi cleanse, which is the reason you bring him. Literally all you need is semi competent dps and a good hfb and this frac becomes as easy as any other.

 

I still think double stab is totally unnecesary, and sacrificing wor/soa/condicleanse for it is a bad idea. Surely the stab from elite should be more than enough for the boss attacks.

[Erick Alastor.3917]

It's not that Siren's Reef is harder than CMs. It's that CMs with specific party compositions became stupidly easy.

So people just brute-force the encounters with pure dps.

Which is harder to do with Siren, so people will be required proper positioning and a bit of tactic.

You can kinda trivialize the fight with proper absorbs/reflections, but you'll still need decent positioning.

More than nerfing Siren, they shouldn't make possible to bypass so nonchalantly boss' mechanics with dps during CMs.

People unable to stop and think about how to deal with a mechanic and proceed accordingly shouldn't be able to complete what was supposed to be the hardest fractal content.

I mostly stopped running CMs with pugs mainly because of that, people will complain about the smallest things, if a brute-force attempt does fail.

[Wolfb.7025]

> @"Hannelore.8153" said:

> I don't get why its hard to understand. Challenging content is good, but not for the same rewards.

It's not even "Challenging" its just a "cheese it or STRUGGLE" thing.

> @"Fueki.4753" said:

> > @"Hannelore.8153" said:

> > I wish people would just accept that this Fractal is harder than others

>

> This is a trend that can be observed in all the "newer" fractals.

> Shattered Observatory, Deepstone, Twilight Oasis and Siren's Reef all are substantially harder than everything that other ones.

> And than we also have the reworks of Swampland, Molten Furnace and the Underwater one. All these reworks made the fractals harder than they used to be.

There is a big differience between Deepstone, Twilight Oasis and Siren's Reef.

 

You can handsomely sidestep most dangerous attacks in Twilight Oasis, specially against Amala, reducing the damage and the heal pressure on your HB.

Same applies at Deepstone, the general complain is that this fractal is long.

 

However, you get completely overwhelmed by the mob spam at Siren's Reef, unavoidable ranged attacks from the 5-10 elementalists spamming Slow and Chill from each ramp at Arabella's. I call that a bad fight design.

[Erick Alastor.3917]

> @"Wolfb.7025" said:

> However, you get completely overwhelmed by the mob spam at Siren's Reef, unavoidable ranged attacks from the 5-10 elementalists spamming Slow and Chill from each ramp at Arabella's. I call that a bad fight design.

 

Why so? The game gives you plenty of options to deal with projectiles, Feerback/WoR/CorrosiveC/Ch3T3/Smokescreen just to name some, obviously Ventari is kinda op in that case, but still, you have a lot of alternatives if you stop thinking that you have to burst down the boss as soon as possible. My group is definitely not a pro group and we never struggle at Siren, no matter which instabilities are up.

If you pug, just ask pugs to cooperate. if they refuse, that is what is killing you, not the fractal.

 

[Wolfb.7025]

> @"Erick Alastor.3917" said:

> > @"Wolfb.7025" said:

> > However, you get completely overwhelmed by the mob spam at Siren's Reef, unavoidable ranged attacks from the 5-10 elementalists spamming Slow and Chill from each ramp at Arabella's. I call that a bad fight design.

>

> Why so? The game gives you plenty of options to deal with projectiles, Feerback/WoR/CorrosiveC/Ch3T3/Smokescreen just to name some, obviously Ventari is kinda op in that case, but still, you have a lot of alternatives if you stop thinking that you have to burst down the boss as soon as possible. My group is definitely not a pro group and we never struggle at Siren, no matter which instabilities are up.

> If you pug, just ask pugs to cooperate. if they refuse, that is what is killing you, not the fractal.

 

That's the thing i'm against, it forces you to bring a specific build/class in order to cheese and neglect part of the combat, it makes it a necessity.

In cm100 Skorvald, alacrigades usually bring Dwarf to provide with perma stab and neglect the knockback mechanic, but even without the perma stab, you can still dodge the kb attacks and clear the encounter without problem if you know how to. But with arabella, if you don't bring any of the proyectile hate people mention here to "adapt" to the circumstance, you jsut have to deal with the crpload of conditions and mass of enemies ALA dinasty warriors. This is the only encounter of all fractals that forces you to change the way you play.

[Zohane.7208]

> @"Wolfb.7025" said:

> > @"Erick Alastor.3917" said:

> > > @"Wolfb.7025" said:

> > > However, you get completely overwhelmed by the mob spam at Siren's Reef, unavoidable ranged attacks from the 5-10 elementalists spamming Slow and Chill from each ramp at Arabella's. I call that a bad fight design.

> >

> > Why so? The game gives you plenty of options to deal with projectiles, Feerback/WoR/CorrosiveC/Ch3T3/Smokescreen just to name some, obviously Ventari is kinda op in that case, but still, you have a lot of alternatives if you stop thinking that you have to burst down the boss as soon as possible. My group is definitely not a pro group and we never struggle at Siren, no matter which instabilities are up.

> > If you pug, just ask pugs to cooperate. if they refuse, that is what is killing you, not the fractal.

>

> That's the thing i'm against, it forces you to bring a specific build/class in order to cheese and neglect part of the combat, it makes it a necessity.

> In cm100 Skorvald, alacrigades usually bring Dwarf to provide with perma stab and neglect the knockback mechanic, but even without the perma stab, you can still dodge the kb attacks and clear the encounter without problem if you know how to. But with arabella, if you don't bring any of the proyectile hate people mention here to "adapt" to the circumstance, you jsut have to deal with the crpload of conditions and mass of enemies ALA dinasty warriors. This is the only encounter of all fractals that forces you to change the way you play.

 

So I did Siren's daily yesterday with a pretty standard PUG group, hfb, alac, 3 dps (no BS). Everyone knew the fractal well enough and we all did our part with reflects/pulls/cleaves/whatever on the adds while getting boss down. A couple of times people were blown off the ship, but that's quite common. We didn't change our team at all and we had barely any build changes and still didn't wipe a single time.

 

It's been said many times before: if the team - however it's built - isn't able to bypass the mechanic they have to do the mechanic. In this particular case it means kill the adds if you can't ignore them.

[Miellyn.6847]

> @"Wolfb.7025" said:

> > @"Erick Alastor.3917" said:

> > > @"Wolfb.7025" said:

> > > However, you get completely overwhelmed by the mob spam at Siren's Reef, unavoidable ranged attacks from the 5-10 elementalists spamming Slow and Chill from each ramp at Arabella's. I call that a bad fight design.

> >

> > Why so? The game gives you plenty of options to deal with projectiles, Feerback/WoR/CorrosiveC/Ch3T3/Smokescreen just to name some, obviously Ventari is kinda op in that case, but still, you have a lot of alternatives if you stop thinking that you have to burst down the boss as soon as possible. My group is definitely not a pro group and we never struggle at Siren, no matter which instabilities are up.

> > If you pug, just ask pugs to cooperate. if they refuse, that is what is killing you, not the fractal.

>

> That's the thing i'm against, it forces you to bring a specific build/class in order to cheese and neglect part of the combat, it makes it a necessity.

> In cm100 Skorvald, alacrigades usually bring Dwarf to provide with perma stab and neglect the knockback mechanic, but even without the perma stab, you can still dodge the kb attacks and clear the encounter without problem if you know how to. But with arabella, if you don't bring any of the proyectile hate people mention here to "adapt" to the circumstance, you jsut have to deal with the crpload of conditions and mass of enemies ALA dinasty warriors. This is the only encounter of all fractals that forces you to change the way you play.

 

1. adapting to foes isn't cheesing...

2. There is only warrior that doesn't have a projectile counter with a decent cooldown. So unless you run with 5 warriors you shouldn't have any problem dealing with projectiles if everyone does his part.

3. Adapting against foes is something that is way to underused.

[borgs.6103]

> @"Wolfb.7025" said:

> > @"Erick Alastor.3917" said:

> > > @"Wolfb.7025" said:

> > > However, you get completely overwhelmed by the mob spam at Siren's Reef, unavoidable ranged attacks from the 5-10 elementalists spamming Slow and Chill from each ramp at Arabella's. I call that a bad fight design.

> >

> > Why so? The game gives you plenty of options to deal with projectiles, Feerback/WoR/CorrosiveC/Ch3T3/Smokescreen just to name some, obviously Ventari is kinda op in that case, but still, you have a lot of alternatives if you stop thinking that you have to burst down the boss as soon as possible. My group is definitely not a pro group and we never struggle at Siren, no matter which instabilities are up.

> > If you pug, just ask pugs to cooperate. if they refuse, that is what is killing you, not the fractal.

>

> That's the thing i'm against, it forces you to bring a specific build/class in order to cheese and neglect part of the combat, it makes it a necessity.

> In cm100 Skorvald, alacrigades usually bring Dwarf to provide with perma stab and neglect the knockback mechanic, but even without the perma stab, you can still dodge the kb attacks and clear the encounter without problem if you know how to. But with arabella, if you don't bring any of the proyectile hate people mention here to "adapt" to the circumstance, you jsut have to deal with the crpload of conditions and mass of enemies ALA dinasty warriors. This is the only encounter of all fractals that forces you to change the way you play.

 

I disagree.

If you're playing support, you switch skills and builds depending on the encounter, instabilities or mechanics. You have to adapt to the challenge as much as possible so that your DPS monkeys' damage output would be optimum and therefore make your daily grind faster and smoother. You owe them that.

 

Unless they're slacking off.

[Zohane.7208]

> @"borgs.6103" said:

> > @"Wolfb.7025" said:

> > > @"Erick Alastor.3917" said:

> > > > @"Wolfb.7025" said:

> > > > However, you get completely overwhelmed by the mob spam at Siren's Reef, unavoidable ranged attacks from the 5-10 elementalists spamming Slow and Chill from each ramp at Arabella's. I call that a bad fight design.

> > >

> > > Why so? The game gives you plenty of options to deal with projectiles, Feerback/WoR/CorrosiveC/Ch3T3/Smokescreen just to name some, obviously Ventari is kinda op in that case, but still, you have a lot of alternatives if you stop thinking that you have to burst down the boss as soon as possible. My group is definitely not a pro group and we never struggle at Siren, no matter which instabilities are up.

> > > If you pug, just ask pugs to cooperate. if they refuse, that is what is killing you, not the fractal.

> >

> > That's the thing i'm against, it forces you to bring a specific build/class in order to cheese and neglect part of the combat, it makes it a necessity.

> > In cm100 Skorvald, alacrigades usually bring Dwarf to provide with perma stab and neglect the knockback mechanic, but even without the perma stab, you can still dodge the kb attacks and clear the encounter without problem if you know how to. But with arabella, if you don't bring any of the proyectile hate people mention here to "adapt" to the circumstance, you jsut have to deal with the crpload of conditions and mass of enemies ALA dinasty warriors. This is the only encounter of all fractals that forces you to change the way you play.

>

> I disagree.

> If you're playing support, you switch skills and builds depending on the encounter, instabilities or mechanics. You have to adapt to the challenge as much as possible so that your DPS monkeys' damage output would be optimum and therefore make your daily grind faster and smoother. You owe them that.

>

> Unless they're slacking off.

 

Even as a DPS you change skills to match - not as much as the supports do, but still :) Each DPS build usually has at least one utility that can be sacrificed to add some stability or reflect or whatnot.